What does the Mechanic get
#171
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: What does the Mechanic get
This is exactly correct, and the way it is done at a large majority of
dealerships.
Jerry
"Bill Beyer" <bill_beyer@excite.cXoYmZ> wrote in message
news:PMkNb.68166$xy6.126375@attbi_s02...
>
> "Barry Bean" <bbbean@beancotton.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9470A4BD6B71Deatmorecotton@207.14.113.17.. .
> > "Jerry Newton" <fig@mcttelecom.com> wrote in
> > news:4005764b$1_2@newspeer2.tds.net:
> >
> > >
> > > Well, that's not so in most dealerships. The tech gets paid when he
> > > is working on a paying customer's automobile. Tech doesn't get paid
> > > to clean the house, train the new guy, road test for hours to
> > > duplicate an impossible concern, etc..
> >
> > I have never known a dealership mechanic who didn't simply draw a salary
> or
> > hourly wage for the time he was at the dealership. Are you saying that
the
> > dealership mechanics you know are independent contractors who only get
> paid
> > while they're actualy working on a customer vehicle?
>
> It depends on what part of the country you're in. Many dealerships are
still
> "flat rate" IOW they get paid what the book says they get paid on a per
job
> basis regardless of how long it actually takes them to complete the job.
The
> upside is that it's possible for a technician to "flag" more than 8 hours
a
> day or 40 hours a week even though he only works for 40 hours.
>
> For example: The Chilton's Flat Rate Manual calls for a heater core
> replacement to pay 4 hours so the customer is quoted 4 hours of labor at
the
> posted shop rate. The technician happens to know a shortcut to get the job
> done in only 2 hours of real time but he "flags" the job at 4 hours at his
> hourly pay rate. The customer pays for 4 hours worth of work, the
technician
> gets paid for 4 hours of work but he still has an extra 2 hours to
complete
> more jobs. At the end of the day the technician's timecard could show him
> working 8 hours but getting paid for 10-12 hours depending on what other
> jobs he completed.
>
>
dealerships.
Jerry
"Bill Beyer" <bill_beyer@excite.cXoYmZ> wrote in message
news:PMkNb.68166$xy6.126375@attbi_s02...
>
> "Barry Bean" <bbbean@beancotton.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9470A4BD6B71Deatmorecotton@207.14.113.17.. .
> > "Jerry Newton" <fig@mcttelecom.com> wrote in
> > news:4005764b$1_2@newspeer2.tds.net:
> >
> > >
> > > Well, that's not so in most dealerships. The tech gets paid when he
> > > is working on a paying customer's automobile. Tech doesn't get paid
> > > to clean the house, train the new guy, road test for hours to
> > > duplicate an impossible concern, etc..
> >
> > I have never known a dealership mechanic who didn't simply draw a salary
> or
> > hourly wage for the time he was at the dealership. Are you saying that
the
> > dealership mechanics you know are independent contractors who only get
> paid
> > while they're actualy working on a customer vehicle?
>
> It depends on what part of the country you're in. Many dealerships are
still
> "flat rate" IOW they get paid what the book says they get paid on a per
job
> basis regardless of how long it actually takes them to complete the job.
The
> upside is that it's possible for a technician to "flag" more than 8 hours
a
> day or 40 hours a week even though he only works for 40 hours.
>
> For example: The Chilton's Flat Rate Manual calls for a heater core
> replacement to pay 4 hours so the customer is quoted 4 hours of labor at
the
> posted shop rate. The technician happens to know a shortcut to get the job
> done in only 2 hours of real time but he "flags" the job at 4 hours at his
> hourly pay rate. The customer pays for 4 hours worth of work, the
technician
> gets paid for 4 hours of work but he still has an extra 2 hours to
complete
> more jobs. At the end of the day the technician's timecard could show him
> working 8 hours but getting paid for 10-12 hours depending on what other
> jobs he completed.
>
>
#172
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: What does the Mechanic get
This is exactly correct, and the way it is done at a large majority of
dealerships.
Jerry
"Bill Beyer" <bill_beyer@excite.cXoYmZ> wrote in message
news:PMkNb.68166$xy6.126375@attbi_s02...
>
> "Barry Bean" <bbbean@beancotton.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9470A4BD6B71Deatmorecotton@207.14.113.17.. .
> > "Jerry Newton" <fig@mcttelecom.com> wrote in
> > news:4005764b$1_2@newspeer2.tds.net:
> >
> > >
> > > Well, that's not so in most dealerships. The tech gets paid when he
> > > is working on a paying customer's automobile. Tech doesn't get paid
> > > to clean the house, train the new guy, road test for hours to
> > > duplicate an impossible concern, etc..
> >
> > I have never known a dealership mechanic who didn't simply draw a salary
> or
> > hourly wage for the time he was at the dealership. Are you saying that
the
> > dealership mechanics you know are independent contractors who only get
> paid
> > while they're actualy working on a customer vehicle?
>
> It depends on what part of the country you're in. Many dealerships are
still
> "flat rate" IOW they get paid what the book says they get paid on a per
job
> basis regardless of how long it actually takes them to complete the job.
The
> upside is that it's possible for a technician to "flag" more than 8 hours
a
> day or 40 hours a week even though he only works for 40 hours.
>
> For example: The Chilton's Flat Rate Manual calls for a heater core
> replacement to pay 4 hours so the customer is quoted 4 hours of labor at
the
> posted shop rate. The technician happens to know a shortcut to get the job
> done in only 2 hours of real time but he "flags" the job at 4 hours at his
> hourly pay rate. The customer pays for 4 hours worth of work, the
technician
> gets paid for 4 hours of work but he still has an extra 2 hours to
complete
> more jobs. At the end of the day the technician's timecard could show him
> working 8 hours but getting paid for 10-12 hours depending on what other
> jobs he completed.
>
>
dealerships.
Jerry
"Bill Beyer" <bill_beyer@excite.cXoYmZ> wrote in message
news:PMkNb.68166$xy6.126375@attbi_s02...
>
> "Barry Bean" <bbbean@beancotton.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9470A4BD6B71Deatmorecotton@207.14.113.17.. .
> > "Jerry Newton" <fig@mcttelecom.com> wrote in
> > news:4005764b$1_2@newspeer2.tds.net:
> >
> > >
> > > Well, that's not so in most dealerships. The tech gets paid when he
> > > is working on a paying customer's automobile. Tech doesn't get paid
> > > to clean the house, train the new guy, road test for hours to
> > > duplicate an impossible concern, etc..
> >
> > I have never known a dealership mechanic who didn't simply draw a salary
> or
> > hourly wage for the time he was at the dealership. Are you saying that
the
> > dealership mechanics you know are independent contractors who only get
> paid
> > while they're actualy working on a customer vehicle?
>
> It depends on what part of the country you're in. Many dealerships are
still
> "flat rate" IOW they get paid what the book says they get paid on a per
job
> basis regardless of how long it actually takes them to complete the job.
The
> upside is that it's possible for a technician to "flag" more than 8 hours
a
> day or 40 hours a week even though he only works for 40 hours.
>
> For example: The Chilton's Flat Rate Manual calls for a heater core
> replacement to pay 4 hours so the customer is quoted 4 hours of labor at
the
> posted shop rate. The technician happens to know a shortcut to get the job
> done in only 2 hours of real time but he "flags" the job at 4 hours at his
> hourly pay rate. The customer pays for 4 hours worth of work, the
technician
> gets paid for 4 hours of work but he still has an extra 2 hours to
complete
> more jobs. At the end of the day the technician's timecard could show him
> working 8 hours but getting paid for 10-12 hours depending on what other
> jobs he completed.
>
>
#173
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: What does the Mechanic get
I am sorry to hear about your troubles, Steve. I am intimately familiar
with the Aurora, and all of the things that you talked about are very common
problems.
The trim pieces in an Aurora are un-Godly expensive. They aren't just
woodgrained plastic, they are shaped pieces of walnut or whatever wood that
is. Unfortunately, they also break or chip rather easily in the hands of
someone not familiar with how the interior is supposed to come apart, and
sometimes they break even if you do know how to get them apart. Factory is
pretty particular about paying for these things. It has to be shown that
there is a factory defect, not just a mistake on the part of the tech. If
it is broken by the tech, the dealer (and sometimes the tech) must pay for
it. You can hopefully appreciate an effort to repair a trim piece rather
than shell out $500-700 for a new one.
Transmission problems on the 4T80E aren't usually very serious. It is
common to have TCC engagement/slip problems, and the repairs for this
concern vary. Depending on when it was that you had yours serviced, it was
likely that the factory was not yet allowing techs in the field to repair
them. When a new piece or component comes to the field, there is usually a
bulletin that comes out directing techs to not repair, but replace the
component. That is so that they can return things (like your transaxle) to
the factory engineering teams to take apart and see the root cause of
failure, and make improvements on the design. Many times, this results in a
backorder situation, as they are trying to build new cars and send out
replacement assemblies at the same time. The factory will sometimes collect
data this way for several years before allowing techs in the field to repair
instead of replace. Allison transmissions in trucks are like this. They
came out about three years ago in GM trucks, and we are just now being
allowed to service only very specific parts of it, because the analysis is
ongoing.
Yes, mistakes happen. Yes, wiresets for Northstar-type engines are
expensive. Yes, there are morons at the dealership level. Yes, there are
guys in just about every garage of any size that probably don't have any
business working on cars. The industry has become much more
knowledge-intense. Used to be that wrenching was what you did when you
lacked other skills, like a fallback. It isn't so anymore, but some of
those guys that fell back are still lingering around, combined with shop
owners trying to "grow their own" technicians due to a lack of qualified
techs in the workforce. I guess the quality downturn is symptomatic of the
lack of qualified techs.
Speaking of your oil leak... we don't see those much anymore, but boy howdy,
how we made a bunch of money fixing those. Auroras pretty much need to have
the engine removed to do it (it's easier, anyway), but the Cadillac
Northstars were done in-car. I only do 3-4 of them a year now, but I still
do them in about 4-5 hours. Book time is about 18. Lately, we are doing a
lot of piston replacements in late model Cadillac's for cold knocking. I
have that procedure down to about 7.5 hours, and it pays 20 at the factory's
expense.
The vast majority of the dealer techs I have known are true professionals,
and worth the money that they make and more. There are boneheads in every
shop I have ever worked in as well. It is probably fair to say that even
the pros act like boneheads once in awhile. Everyone has a story relative
to their own automotive repair nightmare. It seems like the prevailing
opinion on this thread is that mechanics don't deserve the money they make.
There are a couple of dissenters, but that is the impression that I get. I
don't begrudge anyone's living, from the sanitation worker in San Francisco,
to Bill Gates. It is a free market society, and everyone is entitled to
spend their money any way they like. I am pretty sure that Nathan isn't
donating his skill and equipment when he goes to a welding job. You don't
go out and buy Rubicon's and Dodge Ram's on minimum wage. More power to
Nathan, I hope he makes 200k this year.
Well, anyway, I just wanted to respond to you directly about your Aurora,
and commiserate with you a little. Have a good day in the Great White North.
Jerry
"Steve G" <NospamforSteve@Steve-Garner.com> wrote in message
news:NbgNb.94441$X%5.25595@pd7tw2no...
> Jerry,
> I'm a mechanic by trade that hasn't worked in the field for some 17 years.
> I worked for independants, never in a dealership. In recent years I've
been
> standing on the other side of the service counter and I can tell you
without
> question that here in my parts, Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada, the quality of
> workmanship and level of knowledge in the dealerships that I've had
contact
> with is pathetic. I have a 96 Aurora and have a litany of stories with
the
> dealers that would absolutely curl your toes. The original selling dealer
> had the car almost 2 months for the trans, had the trans and out several
> times, broke the shift indicater in the console ($1400) when the put the
> indicater lite harness back wrong while replacing the lighter, put the
dash
> bezel back on with 2 way tape when the broke the tabs removing it to
replace
> the speeedo, picked it up after thr trans job (they finally got a factory
> reman) and had antifreeze pouring on the ground from a loose hose when I
> drove it away, wanted to sell me a new a/c compressor when the clutch brg
> packed up ($1900, I had just the clutch repaired instead for $200 and
still
> going strong 120,000 km later), and on and on. I decided to go to
another
> dealer where my father-in law had been service manager for years when it
> lost 1 cylinder. Had a $600 tune-up. Drove fine for a week and another
> cylinder was out. Took it back and they replaced a plug wire. A couple
of
> weeks later same thing again, different cyl. They wanted to replace the
> entire set at a cost of $360 for the wire set. Something didn't seem
right,
> the car had less than 60,000miles (100,000 km) and the plug wires had been
> replaced once while the car was under warranty. I didn't want to pay $360
> for a set of wires so I bought a quality set of aftermarket wires for $60.
> After a couple of weeks, same problem. This time I pulled the plugs,
> (they're deep inside tubes in the head) . Discovered that when the
> mechanic? changed the plugs at my $600 tune-up he used the same antiseize
> grease that's supposed to be used on the threads to coat the inside of
the
> plug wire boots, in place of the dielectric silicone grease that is
supposed
> to be used there. The grease was shorting the wires down the side of the
> plugs.
> I now do my own work on my vehicles again. Going to a dealership is no
> assurance of quality repairs. Whenever I took it back and things elevated
> to the service manager level they defended their technicians and tried to
> feed me more bull. That really frosted me. I knew better, but what about
> the average consumer that doesn't?
> Sorry, I rant. I get so burned eveerytime I start thinking of all these
> stories. At one point I had the original selling dealer pull every
warranty
> repair they had ever done on the car. I hadn't owned it from new, but it
> was still under warranty when I bought it. Every subsequent problem that
I
> had could be tied to a previous work order. My discovery of the dash
rattle
> and the broken bezel, matched the speedo head replacement, broken shifter
> indicater, matched the cigar lighter replacement work order, cut up and
> bared wires in the engine side wiring harness, matched their search for
the
> problem with the low oil level indicater. Eventually I pulled the engine
> myself to repair the seal between the crankcase halves (northstar) and
> discovered missing and loose bolts related to the trans work, the engine
> wiring harness not routed properly and fried against the exhaust manifold.
> These are just the tip. I've got a dozen more.
> Steve
> "Jerry Newton" <figatmcttelecom.com> wrote in message
> news:4004a4f7_1@newspeer2.tds.net...
> > They don't "do it because they can", Nathan. The overhead of my
> particular
> > service department, before paying the tech, is about $42 an hour. This
> > isn't a gas station, this is a 23 bay repair facility, with every
special
> > tool and piece of equipment necessary to fix anything on the cars we
work
> > on. We don't have the luxury of telling an owner "you will have to take
> it
> > somewhere else, we don't do that here."
> >
> > Refrigerant recovery machines are about $5000. A brake lathe that is
> > capable of turning out rotors with less that .001 lateral runout while
> > turning 50 rotors per day is about $10,000. A handheld scan tool with
> which
> > to diagnose and reprogram your car is about $3000. These are just three
> > examples of shop equipment. We need two recovery machines, four brake
> > lathes, and five scan tools. You do the math. This is just the tip of
> the
> > iceberg.
> >
> > Factory training isn't free. It also isn't voluntary. If you want to
> work
> > at the dealership level, you have to attend training, as the
manufacturers
> > make changes every year to major components and electrical/electronic
> > systems. We can't be five years behind the curve like the gas station
> guys,
> > then learn it as we go.
> >
> > For all of the complaining about the cost of dealership labor, there are
> > still cars lined up out to the street, waiting to be serviced. It
defies
> > logic. You would think that a shop that supposedly gouges customers
> > "because we can" wouldn't be in business for 50+ years.
> >
> > Seems there was a thread on this topic just a month or so ago. Perhaps
> Lon
> > can refresh our memories.
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> >
> >
> > "Nathan Collier" <JeepMail@7SlotGrille.com> wrote in message
> > news:dfWMb.221803$Vu5.16486442@twister.southeast.r r.com...
> > > a typical dealership mechanic averages around $15-$17 an hour. the
> > > dealership has to pay for all the shop expenses including insurance
and
> > > match the mechanics ss deductions but its still a rip to charge $75 an
> > hour.
> > > they do it because they can.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Nathan W. Collier
> > > http://7SlotGrille.com
> > > http://UtilityOffRoad.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
with the Aurora, and all of the things that you talked about are very common
problems.
The trim pieces in an Aurora are un-Godly expensive. They aren't just
woodgrained plastic, they are shaped pieces of walnut or whatever wood that
is. Unfortunately, they also break or chip rather easily in the hands of
someone not familiar with how the interior is supposed to come apart, and
sometimes they break even if you do know how to get them apart. Factory is
pretty particular about paying for these things. It has to be shown that
there is a factory defect, not just a mistake on the part of the tech. If
it is broken by the tech, the dealer (and sometimes the tech) must pay for
it. You can hopefully appreciate an effort to repair a trim piece rather
than shell out $500-700 for a new one.
Transmission problems on the 4T80E aren't usually very serious. It is
common to have TCC engagement/slip problems, and the repairs for this
concern vary. Depending on when it was that you had yours serviced, it was
likely that the factory was not yet allowing techs in the field to repair
them. When a new piece or component comes to the field, there is usually a
bulletin that comes out directing techs to not repair, but replace the
component. That is so that they can return things (like your transaxle) to
the factory engineering teams to take apart and see the root cause of
failure, and make improvements on the design. Many times, this results in a
backorder situation, as they are trying to build new cars and send out
replacement assemblies at the same time. The factory will sometimes collect
data this way for several years before allowing techs in the field to repair
instead of replace. Allison transmissions in trucks are like this. They
came out about three years ago in GM trucks, and we are just now being
allowed to service only very specific parts of it, because the analysis is
ongoing.
Yes, mistakes happen. Yes, wiresets for Northstar-type engines are
expensive. Yes, there are morons at the dealership level. Yes, there are
guys in just about every garage of any size that probably don't have any
business working on cars. The industry has become much more
knowledge-intense. Used to be that wrenching was what you did when you
lacked other skills, like a fallback. It isn't so anymore, but some of
those guys that fell back are still lingering around, combined with shop
owners trying to "grow their own" technicians due to a lack of qualified
techs in the workforce. I guess the quality downturn is symptomatic of the
lack of qualified techs.
Speaking of your oil leak... we don't see those much anymore, but boy howdy,
how we made a bunch of money fixing those. Auroras pretty much need to have
the engine removed to do it (it's easier, anyway), but the Cadillac
Northstars were done in-car. I only do 3-4 of them a year now, but I still
do them in about 4-5 hours. Book time is about 18. Lately, we are doing a
lot of piston replacements in late model Cadillac's for cold knocking. I
have that procedure down to about 7.5 hours, and it pays 20 at the factory's
expense.
The vast majority of the dealer techs I have known are true professionals,
and worth the money that they make and more. There are boneheads in every
shop I have ever worked in as well. It is probably fair to say that even
the pros act like boneheads once in awhile. Everyone has a story relative
to their own automotive repair nightmare. It seems like the prevailing
opinion on this thread is that mechanics don't deserve the money they make.
There are a couple of dissenters, but that is the impression that I get. I
don't begrudge anyone's living, from the sanitation worker in San Francisco,
to Bill Gates. It is a free market society, and everyone is entitled to
spend their money any way they like. I am pretty sure that Nathan isn't
donating his skill and equipment when he goes to a welding job. You don't
go out and buy Rubicon's and Dodge Ram's on minimum wage. More power to
Nathan, I hope he makes 200k this year.
Well, anyway, I just wanted to respond to you directly about your Aurora,
and commiserate with you a little. Have a good day in the Great White North.
Jerry
"Steve G" <NospamforSteve@Steve-Garner.com> wrote in message
news:NbgNb.94441$X%5.25595@pd7tw2no...
> Jerry,
> I'm a mechanic by trade that hasn't worked in the field for some 17 years.
> I worked for independants, never in a dealership. In recent years I've
been
> standing on the other side of the service counter and I can tell you
without
> question that here in my parts, Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada, the quality of
> workmanship and level of knowledge in the dealerships that I've had
contact
> with is pathetic. I have a 96 Aurora and have a litany of stories with
the
> dealers that would absolutely curl your toes. The original selling dealer
> had the car almost 2 months for the trans, had the trans and out several
> times, broke the shift indicater in the console ($1400) when the put the
> indicater lite harness back wrong while replacing the lighter, put the
dash
> bezel back on with 2 way tape when the broke the tabs removing it to
replace
> the speeedo, picked it up after thr trans job (they finally got a factory
> reman) and had antifreeze pouring on the ground from a loose hose when I
> drove it away, wanted to sell me a new a/c compressor when the clutch brg
> packed up ($1900, I had just the clutch repaired instead for $200 and
still
> going strong 120,000 km later), and on and on. I decided to go to
another
> dealer where my father-in law had been service manager for years when it
> lost 1 cylinder. Had a $600 tune-up. Drove fine for a week and another
> cylinder was out. Took it back and they replaced a plug wire. A couple
of
> weeks later same thing again, different cyl. They wanted to replace the
> entire set at a cost of $360 for the wire set. Something didn't seem
right,
> the car had less than 60,000miles (100,000 km) and the plug wires had been
> replaced once while the car was under warranty. I didn't want to pay $360
> for a set of wires so I bought a quality set of aftermarket wires for $60.
> After a couple of weeks, same problem. This time I pulled the plugs,
> (they're deep inside tubes in the head) . Discovered that when the
> mechanic? changed the plugs at my $600 tune-up he used the same antiseize
> grease that's supposed to be used on the threads to coat the inside of
the
> plug wire boots, in place of the dielectric silicone grease that is
supposed
> to be used there. The grease was shorting the wires down the side of the
> plugs.
> I now do my own work on my vehicles again. Going to a dealership is no
> assurance of quality repairs. Whenever I took it back and things elevated
> to the service manager level they defended their technicians and tried to
> feed me more bull. That really frosted me. I knew better, but what about
> the average consumer that doesn't?
> Sorry, I rant. I get so burned eveerytime I start thinking of all these
> stories. At one point I had the original selling dealer pull every
warranty
> repair they had ever done on the car. I hadn't owned it from new, but it
> was still under warranty when I bought it. Every subsequent problem that
I
> had could be tied to a previous work order. My discovery of the dash
rattle
> and the broken bezel, matched the speedo head replacement, broken shifter
> indicater, matched the cigar lighter replacement work order, cut up and
> bared wires in the engine side wiring harness, matched their search for
the
> problem with the low oil level indicater. Eventually I pulled the engine
> myself to repair the seal between the crankcase halves (northstar) and
> discovered missing and loose bolts related to the trans work, the engine
> wiring harness not routed properly and fried against the exhaust manifold.
> These are just the tip. I've got a dozen more.
> Steve
> "Jerry Newton" <figatmcttelecom.com> wrote in message
> news:4004a4f7_1@newspeer2.tds.net...
> > They don't "do it because they can", Nathan. The overhead of my
> particular
> > service department, before paying the tech, is about $42 an hour. This
> > isn't a gas station, this is a 23 bay repair facility, with every
special
> > tool and piece of equipment necessary to fix anything on the cars we
work
> > on. We don't have the luxury of telling an owner "you will have to take
> it
> > somewhere else, we don't do that here."
> >
> > Refrigerant recovery machines are about $5000. A brake lathe that is
> > capable of turning out rotors with less that .001 lateral runout while
> > turning 50 rotors per day is about $10,000. A handheld scan tool with
> which
> > to diagnose and reprogram your car is about $3000. These are just three
> > examples of shop equipment. We need two recovery machines, four brake
> > lathes, and five scan tools. You do the math. This is just the tip of
> the
> > iceberg.
> >
> > Factory training isn't free. It also isn't voluntary. If you want to
> work
> > at the dealership level, you have to attend training, as the
manufacturers
> > make changes every year to major components and electrical/electronic
> > systems. We can't be five years behind the curve like the gas station
> guys,
> > then learn it as we go.
> >
> > For all of the complaining about the cost of dealership labor, there are
> > still cars lined up out to the street, waiting to be serviced. It
defies
> > logic. You would think that a shop that supposedly gouges customers
> > "because we can" wouldn't be in business for 50+ years.
> >
> > Seems there was a thread on this topic just a month or so ago. Perhaps
> Lon
> > can refresh our memories.
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> >
> >
> > "Nathan Collier" <JeepMail@7SlotGrille.com> wrote in message
> > news:dfWMb.221803$Vu5.16486442@twister.southeast.r r.com...
> > > a typical dealership mechanic averages around $15-$17 an hour. the
> > > dealership has to pay for all the shop expenses including insurance
and
> > > match the mechanics ss deductions but its still a rip to charge $75 an
> > hour.
> > > they do it because they can.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Nathan W. Collier
> > > http://7SlotGrille.com
> > > http://UtilityOffRoad.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
#174
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: What does the Mechanic get
I am sorry to hear about your troubles, Steve. I am intimately familiar
with the Aurora, and all of the things that you talked about are very common
problems.
The trim pieces in an Aurora are un-Godly expensive. They aren't just
woodgrained plastic, they are shaped pieces of walnut or whatever wood that
is. Unfortunately, they also break or chip rather easily in the hands of
someone not familiar with how the interior is supposed to come apart, and
sometimes they break even if you do know how to get them apart. Factory is
pretty particular about paying for these things. It has to be shown that
there is a factory defect, not just a mistake on the part of the tech. If
it is broken by the tech, the dealer (and sometimes the tech) must pay for
it. You can hopefully appreciate an effort to repair a trim piece rather
than shell out $500-700 for a new one.
Transmission problems on the 4T80E aren't usually very serious. It is
common to have TCC engagement/slip problems, and the repairs for this
concern vary. Depending on when it was that you had yours serviced, it was
likely that the factory was not yet allowing techs in the field to repair
them. When a new piece or component comes to the field, there is usually a
bulletin that comes out directing techs to not repair, but replace the
component. That is so that they can return things (like your transaxle) to
the factory engineering teams to take apart and see the root cause of
failure, and make improvements on the design. Many times, this results in a
backorder situation, as they are trying to build new cars and send out
replacement assemblies at the same time. The factory will sometimes collect
data this way for several years before allowing techs in the field to repair
instead of replace. Allison transmissions in trucks are like this. They
came out about three years ago in GM trucks, and we are just now being
allowed to service only very specific parts of it, because the analysis is
ongoing.
Yes, mistakes happen. Yes, wiresets for Northstar-type engines are
expensive. Yes, there are morons at the dealership level. Yes, there are
guys in just about every garage of any size that probably don't have any
business working on cars. The industry has become much more
knowledge-intense. Used to be that wrenching was what you did when you
lacked other skills, like a fallback. It isn't so anymore, but some of
those guys that fell back are still lingering around, combined with shop
owners trying to "grow their own" technicians due to a lack of qualified
techs in the workforce. I guess the quality downturn is symptomatic of the
lack of qualified techs.
Speaking of your oil leak... we don't see those much anymore, but boy howdy,
how we made a bunch of money fixing those. Auroras pretty much need to have
the engine removed to do it (it's easier, anyway), but the Cadillac
Northstars were done in-car. I only do 3-4 of them a year now, but I still
do them in about 4-5 hours. Book time is about 18. Lately, we are doing a
lot of piston replacements in late model Cadillac's for cold knocking. I
have that procedure down to about 7.5 hours, and it pays 20 at the factory's
expense.
The vast majority of the dealer techs I have known are true professionals,
and worth the money that they make and more. There are boneheads in every
shop I have ever worked in as well. It is probably fair to say that even
the pros act like boneheads once in awhile. Everyone has a story relative
to their own automotive repair nightmare. It seems like the prevailing
opinion on this thread is that mechanics don't deserve the money they make.
There are a couple of dissenters, but that is the impression that I get. I
don't begrudge anyone's living, from the sanitation worker in San Francisco,
to Bill Gates. It is a free market society, and everyone is entitled to
spend their money any way they like. I am pretty sure that Nathan isn't
donating his skill and equipment when he goes to a welding job. You don't
go out and buy Rubicon's and Dodge Ram's on minimum wage. More power to
Nathan, I hope he makes 200k this year.
Well, anyway, I just wanted to respond to you directly about your Aurora,
and commiserate with you a little. Have a good day in the Great White North.
Jerry
"Steve G" <NospamforSteve@Steve-Garner.com> wrote in message
news:NbgNb.94441$X%5.25595@pd7tw2no...
> Jerry,
> I'm a mechanic by trade that hasn't worked in the field for some 17 years.
> I worked for independants, never in a dealership. In recent years I've
been
> standing on the other side of the service counter and I can tell you
without
> question that here in my parts, Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada, the quality of
> workmanship and level of knowledge in the dealerships that I've had
contact
> with is pathetic. I have a 96 Aurora and have a litany of stories with
the
> dealers that would absolutely curl your toes. The original selling dealer
> had the car almost 2 months for the trans, had the trans and out several
> times, broke the shift indicater in the console ($1400) when the put the
> indicater lite harness back wrong while replacing the lighter, put the
dash
> bezel back on with 2 way tape when the broke the tabs removing it to
replace
> the speeedo, picked it up after thr trans job (they finally got a factory
> reman) and had antifreeze pouring on the ground from a loose hose when I
> drove it away, wanted to sell me a new a/c compressor when the clutch brg
> packed up ($1900, I had just the clutch repaired instead for $200 and
still
> going strong 120,000 km later), and on and on. I decided to go to
another
> dealer where my father-in law had been service manager for years when it
> lost 1 cylinder. Had a $600 tune-up. Drove fine for a week and another
> cylinder was out. Took it back and they replaced a plug wire. A couple
of
> weeks later same thing again, different cyl. They wanted to replace the
> entire set at a cost of $360 for the wire set. Something didn't seem
right,
> the car had less than 60,000miles (100,000 km) and the plug wires had been
> replaced once while the car was under warranty. I didn't want to pay $360
> for a set of wires so I bought a quality set of aftermarket wires for $60.
> After a couple of weeks, same problem. This time I pulled the plugs,
> (they're deep inside tubes in the head) . Discovered that when the
> mechanic? changed the plugs at my $600 tune-up he used the same antiseize
> grease that's supposed to be used on the threads to coat the inside of
the
> plug wire boots, in place of the dielectric silicone grease that is
supposed
> to be used there. The grease was shorting the wires down the side of the
> plugs.
> I now do my own work on my vehicles again. Going to a dealership is no
> assurance of quality repairs. Whenever I took it back and things elevated
> to the service manager level they defended their technicians and tried to
> feed me more bull. That really frosted me. I knew better, but what about
> the average consumer that doesn't?
> Sorry, I rant. I get so burned eveerytime I start thinking of all these
> stories. At one point I had the original selling dealer pull every
warranty
> repair they had ever done on the car. I hadn't owned it from new, but it
> was still under warranty when I bought it. Every subsequent problem that
I
> had could be tied to a previous work order. My discovery of the dash
rattle
> and the broken bezel, matched the speedo head replacement, broken shifter
> indicater, matched the cigar lighter replacement work order, cut up and
> bared wires in the engine side wiring harness, matched their search for
the
> problem with the low oil level indicater. Eventually I pulled the engine
> myself to repair the seal between the crankcase halves (northstar) and
> discovered missing and loose bolts related to the trans work, the engine
> wiring harness not routed properly and fried against the exhaust manifold.
> These are just the tip. I've got a dozen more.
> Steve
> "Jerry Newton" <figatmcttelecom.com> wrote in message
> news:4004a4f7_1@newspeer2.tds.net...
> > They don't "do it because they can", Nathan. The overhead of my
> particular
> > service department, before paying the tech, is about $42 an hour. This
> > isn't a gas station, this is a 23 bay repair facility, with every
special
> > tool and piece of equipment necessary to fix anything on the cars we
work
> > on. We don't have the luxury of telling an owner "you will have to take
> it
> > somewhere else, we don't do that here."
> >
> > Refrigerant recovery machines are about $5000. A brake lathe that is
> > capable of turning out rotors with less that .001 lateral runout while
> > turning 50 rotors per day is about $10,000. A handheld scan tool with
> which
> > to diagnose and reprogram your car is about $3000. These are just three
> > examples of shop equipment. We need two recovery machines, four brake
> > lathes, and five scan tools. You do the math. This is just the tip of
> the
> > iceberg.
> >
> > Factory training isn't free. It also isn't voluntary. If you want to
> work
> > at the dealership level, you have to attend training, as the
manufacturers
> > make changes every year to major components and electrical/electronic
> > systems. We can't be five years behind the curve like the gas station
> guys,
> > then learn it as we go.
> >
> > For all of the complaining about the cost of dealership labor, there are
> > still cars lined up out to the street, waiting to be serviced. It
defies
> > logic. You would think that a shop that supposedly gouges customers
> > "because we can" wouldn't be in business for 50+ years.
> >
> > Seems there was a thread on this topic just a month or so ago. Perhaps
> Lon
> > can refresh our memories.
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> >
> >
> > "Nathan Collier" <JeepMail@7SlotGrille.com> wrote in message
> > news:dfWMb.221803$Vu5.16486442@twister.southeast.r r.com...
> > > a typical dealership mechanic averages around $15-$17 an hour. the
> > > dealership has to pay for all the shop expenses including insurance
and
> > > match the mechanics ss deductions but its still a rip to charge $75 an
> > hour.
> > > they do it because they can.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Nathan W. Collier
> > > http://7SlotGrille.com
> > > http://UtilityOffRoad.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
with the Aurora, and all of the things that you talked about are very common
problems.
The trim pieces in an Aurora are un-Godly expensive. They aren't just
woodgrained plastic, they are shaped pieces of walnut or whatever wood that
is. Unfortunately, they also break or chip rather easily in the hands of
someone not familiar with how the interior is supposed to come apart, and
sometimes they break even if you do know how to get them apart. Factory is
pretty particular about paying for these things. It has to be shown that
there is a factory defect, not just a mistake on the part of the tech. If
it is broken by the tech, the dealer (and sometimes the tech) must pay for
it. You can hopefully appreciate an effort to repair a trim piece rather
than shell out $500-700 for a new one.
Transmission problems on the 4T80E aren't usually very serious. It is
common to have TCC engagement/slip problems, and the repairs for this
concern vary. Depending on when it was that you had yours serviced, it was
likely that the factory was not yet allowing techs in the field to repair
them. When a new piece or component comes to the field, there is usually a
bulletin that comes out directing techs to not repair, but replace the
component. That is so that they can return things (like your transaxle) to
the factory engineering teams to take apart and see the root cause of
failure, and make improvements on the design. Many times, this results in a
backorder situation, as they are trying to build new cars and send out
replacement assemblies at the same time. The factory will sometimes collect
data this way for several years before allowing techs in the field to repair
instead of replace. Allison transmissions in trucks are like this. They
came out about three years ago in GM trucks, and we are just now being
allowed to service only very specific parts of it, because the analysis is
ongoing.
Yes, mistakes happen. Yes, wiresets for Northstar-type engines are
expensive. Yes, there are morons at the dealership level. Yes, there are
guys in just about every garage of any size that probably don't have any
business working on cars. The industry has become much more
knowledge-intense. Used to be that wrenching was what you did when you
lacked other skills, like a fallback. It isn't so anymore, but some of
those guys that fell back are still lingering around, combined with shop
owners trying to "grow their own" technicians due to a lack of qualified
techs in the workforce. I guess the quality downturn is symptomatic of the
lack of qualified techs.
Speaking of your oil leak... we don't see those much anymore, but boy howdy,
how we made a bunch of money fixing those. Auroras pretty much need to have
the engine removed to do it (it's easier, anyway), but the Cadillac
Northstars were done in-car. I only do 3-4 of them a year now, but I still
do them in about 4-5 hours. Book time is about 18. Lately, we are doing a
lot of piston replacements in late model Cadillac's for cold knocking. I
have that procedure down to about 7.5 hours, and it pays 20 at the factory's
expense.
The vast majority of the dealer techs I have known are true professionals,
and worth the money that they make and more. There are boneheads in every
shop I have ever worked in as well. It is probably fair to say that even
the pros act like boneheads once in awhile. Everyone has a story relative
to their own automotive repair nightmare. It seems like the prevailing
opinion on this thread is that mechanics don't deserve the money they make.
There are a couple of dissenters, but that is the impression that I get. I
don't begrudge anyone's living, from the sanitation worker in San Francisco,
to Bill Gates. It is a free market society, and everyone is entitled to
spend their money any way they like. I am pretty sure that Nathan isn't
donating his skill and equipment when he goes to a welding job. You don't
go out and buy Rubicon's and Dodge Ram's on minimum wage. More power to
Nathan, I hope he makes 200k this year.
Well, anyway, I just wanted to respond to you directly about your Aurora,
and commiserate with you a little. Have a good day in the Great White North.
Jerry
"Steve G" <NospamforSteve@Steve-Garner.com> wrote in message
news:NbgNb.94441$X%5.25595@pd7tw2no...
> Jerry,
> I'm a mechanic by trade that hasn't worked in the field for some 17 years.
> I worked for independants, never in a dealership. In recent years I've
been
> standing on the other side of the service counter and I can tell you
without
> question that here in my parts, Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada, the quality of
> workmanship and level of knowledge in the dealerships that I've had
contact
> with is pathetic. I have a 96 Aurora and have a litany of stories with
the
> dealers that would absolutely curl your toes. The original selling dealer
> had the car almost 2 months for the trans, had the trans and out several
> times, broke the shift indicater in the console ($1400) when the put the
> indicater lite harness back wrong while replacing the lighter, put the
dash
> bezel back on with 2 way tape when the broke the tabs removing it to
replace
> the speeedo, picked it up after thr trans job (they finally got a factory
> reman) and had antifreeze pouring on the ground from a loose hose when I
> drove it away, wanted to sell me a new a/c compressor when the clutch brg
> packed up ($1900, I had just the clutch repaired instead for $200 and
still
> going strong 120,000 km later), and on and on. I decided to go to
another
> dealer where my father-in law had been service manager for years when it
> lost 1 cylinder. Had a $600 tune-up. Drove fine for a week and another
> cylinder was out. Took it back and they replaced a plug wire. A couple
of
> weeks later same thing again, different cyl. They wanted to replace the
> entire set at a cost of $360 for the wire set. Something didn't seem
right,
> the car had less than 60,000miles (100,000 km) and the plug wires had been
> replaced once while the car was under warranty. I didn't want to pay $360
> for a set of wires so I bought a quality set of aftermarket wires for $60.
> After a couple of weeks, same problem. This time I pulled the plugs,
> (they're deep inside tubes in the head) . Discovered that when the
> mechanic? changed the plugs at my $600 tune-up he used the same antiseize
> grease that's supposed to be used on the threads to coat the inside of
the
> plug wire boots, in place of the dielectric silicone grease that is
supposed
> to be used there. The grease was shorting the wires down the side of the
> plugs.
> I now do my own work on my vehicles again. Going to a dealership is no
> assurance of quality repairs. Whenever I took it back and things elevated
> to the service manager level they defended their technicians and tried to
> feed me more bull. That really frosted me. I knew better, but what about
> the average consumer that doesn't?
> Sorry, I rant. I get so burned eveerytime I start thinking of all these
> stories. At one point I had the original selling dealer pull every
warranty
> repair they had ever done on the car. I hadn't owned it from new, but it
> was still under warranty when I bought it. Every subsequent problem that
I
> had could be tied to a previous work order. My discovery of the dash
rattle
> and the broken bezel, matched the speedo head replacement, broken shifter
> indicater, matched the cigar lighter replacement work order, cut up and
> bared wires in the engine side wiring harness, matched their search for
the
> problem with the low oil level indicater. Eventually I pulled the engine
> myself to repair the seal between the crankcase halves (northstar) and
> discovered missing and loose bolts related to the trans work, the engine
> wiring harness not routed properly and fried against the exhaust manifold.
> These are just the tip. I've got a dozen more.
> Steve
> "Jerry Newton" <figatmcttelecom.com> wrote in message
> news:4004a4f7_1@newspeer2.tds.net...
> > They don't "do it because they can", Nathan. The overhead of my
> particular
> > service department, before paying the tech, is about $42 an hour. This
> > isn't a gas station, this is a 23 bay repair facility, with every
special
> > tool and piece of equipment necessary to fix anything on the cars we
work
> > on. We don't have the luxury of telling an owner "you will have to take
> it
> > somewhere else, we don't do that here."
> >
> > Refrigerant recovery machines are about $5000. A brake lathe that is
> > capable of turning out rotors with less that .001 lateral runout while
> > turning 50 rotors per day is about $10,000. A handheld scan tool with
> which
> > to diagnose and reprogram your car is about $3000. These are just three
> > examples of shop equipment. We need two recovery machines, four brake
> > lathes, and five scan tools. You do the math. This is just the tip of
> the
> > iceberg.
> >
> > Factory training isn't free. It also isn't voluntary. If you want to
> work
> > at the dealership level, you have to attend training, as the
manufacturers
> > make changes every year to major components and electrical/electronic
> > systems. We can't be five years behind the curve like the gas station
> guys,
> > then learn it as we go.
> >
> > For all of the complaining about the cost of dealership labor, there are
> > still cars lined up out to the street, waiting to be serviced. It
defies
> > logic. You would think that a shop that supposedly gouges customers
> > "because we can" wouldn't be in business for 50+ years.
> >
> > Seems there was a thread on this topic just a month or so ago. Perhaps
> Lon
> > can refresh our memories.
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> >
> >
> > "Nathan Collier" <JeepMail@7SlotGrille.com> wrote in message
> > news:dfWMb.221803$Vu5.16486442@twister.southeast.r r.com...
> > > a typical dealership mechanic averages around $15-$17 an hour. the
> > > dealership has to pay for all the shop expenses including insurance
and
> > > match the mechanics ss deductions but its still a rip to charge $75 an
> > hour.
> > > they do it because they can.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Nathan W. Collier
> > > http://7SlotGrille.com
> > > http://UtilityOffRoad.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
#175
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: What does the Mechanic get
I am sorry to hear about your troubles, Steve. I am intimately familiar
with the Aurora, and all of the things that you talked about are very common
problems.
The trim pieces in an Aurora are un-Godly expensive. They aren't just
woodgrained plastic, they are shaped pieces of walnut or whatever wood that
is. Unfortunately, they also break or chip rather easily in the hands of
someone not familiar with how the interior is supposed to come apart, and
sometimes they break even if you do know how to get them apart. Factory is
pretty particular about paying for these things. It has to be shown that
there is a factory defect, not just a mistake on the part of the tech. If
it is broken by the tech, the dealer (and sometimes the tech) must pay for
it. You can hopefully appreciate an effort to repair a trim piece rather
than shell out $500-700 for a new one.
Transmission problems on the 4T80E aren't usually very serious. It is
common to have TCC engagement/slip problems, and the repairs for this
concern vary. Depending on when it was that you had yours serviced, it was
likely that the factory was not yet allowing techs in the field to repair
them. When a new piece or component comes to the field, there is usually a
bulletin that comes out directing techs to not repair, but replace the
component. That is so that they can return things (like your transaxle) to
the factory engineering teams to take apart and see the root cause of
failure, and make improvements on the design. Many times, this results in a
backorder situation, as they are trying to build new cars and send out
replacement assemblies at the same time. The factory will sometimes collect
data this way for several years before allowing techs in the field to repair
instead of replace. Allison transmissions in trucks are like this. They
came out about three years ago in GM trucks, and we are just now being
allowed to service only very specific parts of it, because the analysis is
ongoing.
Yes, mistakes happen. Yes, wiresets for Northstar-type engines are
expensive. Yes, there are morons at the dealership level. Yes, there are
guys in just about every garage of any size that probably don't have any
business working on cars. The industry has become much more
knowledge-intense. Used to be that wrenching was what you did when you
lacked other skills, like a fallback. It isn't so anymore, but some of
those guys that fell back are still lingering around, combined with shop
owners trying to "grow their own" technicians due to a lack of qualified
techs in the workforce. I guess the quality downturn is symptomatic of the
lack of qualified techs.
Speaking of your oil leak... we don't see those much anymore, but boy howdy,
how we made a bunch of money fixing those. Auroras pretty much need to have
the engine removed to do it (it's easier, anyway), but the Cadillac
Northstars were done in-car. I only do 3-4 of them a year now, but I still
do them in about 4-5 hours. Book time is about 18. Lately, we are doing a
lot of piston replacements in late model Cadillac's for cold knocking. I
have that procedure down to about 7.5 hours, and it pays 20 at the factory's
expense.
The vast majority of the dealer techs I have known are true professionals,
and worth the money that they make and more. There are boneheads in every
shop I have ever worked in as well. It is probably fair to say that even
the pros act like boneheads once in awhile. Everyone has a story relative
to their own automotive repair nightmare. It seems like the prevailing
opinion on this thread is that mechanics don't deserve the money they make.
There are a couple of dissenters, but that is the impression that I get. I
don't begrudge anyone's living, from the sanitation worker in San Francisco,
to Bill Gates. It is a free market society, and everyone is entitled to
spend their money any way they like. I am pretty sure that Nathan isn't
donating his skill and equipment when he goes to a welding job. You don't
go out and buy Rubicon's and Dodge Ram's on minimum wage. More power to
Nathan, I hope he makes 200k this year.
Well, anyway, I just wanted to respond to you directly about your Aurora,
and commiserate with you a little. Have a good day in the Great White North.
Jerry
"Steve G" <NospamforSteve@Steve-Garner.com> wrote in message
news:NbgNb.94441$X%5.25595@pd7tw2no...
> Jerry,
> I'm a mechanic by trade that hasn't worked in the field for some 17 years.
> I worked for independants, never in a dealership. In recent years I've
been
> standing on the other side of the service counter and I can tell you
without
> question that here in my parts, Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada, the quality of
> workmanship and level of knowledge in the dealerships that I've had
contact
> with is pathetic. I have a 96 Aurora and have a litany of stories with
the
> dealers that would absolutely curl your toes. The original selling dealer
> had the car almost 2 months for the trans, had the trans and out several
> times, broke the shift indicater in the console ($1400) when the put the
> indicater lite harness back wrong while replacing the lighter, put the
dash
> bezel back on with 2 way tape when the broke the tabs removing it to
replace
> the speeedo, picked it up after thr trans job (they finally got a factory
> reman) and had antifreeze pouring on the ground from a loose hose when I
> drove it away, wanted to sell me a new a/c compressor when the clutch brg
> packed up ($1900, I had just the clutch repaired instead for $200 and
still
> going strong 120,000 km later), and on and on. I decided to go to
another
> dealer where my father-in law had been service manager for years when it
> lost 1 cylinder. Had a $600 tune-up. Drove fine for a week and another
> cylinder was out. Took it back and they replaced a plug wire. A couple
of
> weeks later same thing again, different cyl. They wanted to replace the
> entire set at a cost of $360 for the wire set. Something didn't seem
right,
> the car had less than 60,000miles (100,000 km) and the plug wires had been
> replaced once while the car was under warranty. I didn't want to pay $360
> for a set of wires so I bought a quality set of aftermarket wires for $60.
> After a couple of weeks, same problem. This time I pulled the plugs,
> (they're deep inside tubes in the head) . Discovered that when the
> mechanic? changed the plugs at my $600 tune-up he used the same antiseize
> grease that's supposed to be used on the threads to coat the inside of
the
> plug wire boots, in place of the dielectric silicone grease that is
supposed
> to be used there. The grease was shorting the wires down the side of the
> plugs.
> I now do my own work on my vehicles again. Going to a dealership is no
> assurance of quality repairs. Whenever I took it back and things elevated
> to the service manager level they defended their technicians and tried to
> feed me more bull. That really frosted me. I knew better, but what about
> the average consumer that doesn't?
> Sorry, I rant. I get so burned eveerytime I start thinking of all these
> stories. At one point I had the original selling dealer pull every
warranty
> repair they had ever done on the car. I hadn't owned it from new, but it
> was still under warranty when I bought it. Every subsequent problem that
I
> had could be tied to a previous work order. My discovery of the dash
rattle
> and the broken bezel, matched the speedo head replacement, broken shifter
> indicater, matched the cigar lighter replacement work order, cut up and
> bared wires in the engine side wiring harness, matched their search for
the
> problem with the low oil level indicater. Eventually I pulled the engine
> myself to repair the seal between the crankcase halves (northstar) and
> discovered missing and loose bolts related to the trans work, the engine
> wiring harness not routed properly and fried against the exhaust manifold.
> These are just the tip. I've got a dozen more.
> Steve
> "Jerry Newton" <figatmcttelecom.com> wrote in message
> news:4004a4f7_1@newspeer2.tds.net...
> > They don't "do it because they can", Nathan. The overhead of my
> particular
> > service department, before paying the tech, is about $42 an hour. This
> > isn't a gas station, this is a 23 bay repair facility, with every
special
> > tool and piece of equipment necessary to fix anything on the cars we
work
> > on. We don't have the luxury of telling an owner "you will have to take
> it
> > somewhere else, we don't do that here."
> >
> > Refrigerant recovery machines are about $5000. A brake lathe that is
> > capable of turning out rotors with less that .001 lateral runout while
> > turning 50 rotors per day is about $10,000. A handheld scan tool with
> which
> > to diagnose and reprogram your car is about $3000. These are just three
> > examples of shop equipment. We need two recovery machines, four brake
> > lathes, and five scan tools. You do the math. This is just the tip of
> the
> > iceberg.
> >
> > Factory training isn't free. It also isn't voluntary. If you want to
> work
> > at the dealership level, you have to attend training, as the
manufacturers
> > make changes every year to major components and electrical/electronic
> > systems. We can't be five years behind the curve like the gas station
> guys,
> > then learn it as we go.
> >
> > For all of the complaining about the cost of dealership labor, there are
> > still cars lined up out to the street, waiting to be serviced. It
defies
> > logic. You would think that a shop that supposedly gouges customers
> > "because we can" wouldn't be in business for 50+ years.
> >
> > Seems there was a thread on this topic just a month or so ago. Perhaps
> Lon
> > can refresh our memories.
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> >
> >
> > "Nathan Collier" <JeepMail@7SlotGrille.com> wrote in message
> > news:dfWMb.221803$Vu5.16486442@twister.southeast.r r.com...
> > > a typical dealership mechanic averages around $15-$17 an hour. the
> > > dealership has to pay for all the shop expenses including insurance
and
> > > match the mechanics ss deductions but its still a rip to charge $75 an
> > hour.
> > > they do it because they can.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Nathan W. Collier
> > > http://7SlotGrille.com
> > > http://UtilityOffRoad.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
with the Aurora, and all of the things that you talked about are very common
problems.
The trim pieces in an Aurora are un-Godly expensive. They aren't just
woodgrained plastic, they are shaped pieces of walnut or whatever wood that
is. Unfortunately, they also break or chip rather easily in the hands of
someone not familiar with how the interior is supposed to come apart, and
sometimes they break even if you do know how to get them apart. Factory is
pretty particular about paying for these things. It has to be shown that
there is a factory defect, not just a mistake on the part of the tech. If
it is broken by the tech, the dealer (and sometimes the tech) must pay for
it. You can hopefully appreciate an effort to repair a trim piece rather
than shell out $500-700 for a new one.
Transmission problems on the 4T80E aren't usually very serious. It is
common to have TCC engagement/slip problems, and the repairs for this
concern vary. Depending on when it was that you had yours serviced, it was
likely that the factory was not yet allowing techs in the field to repair
them. When a new piece or component comes to the field, there is usually a
bulletin that comes out directing techs to not repair, but replace the
component. That is so that they can return things (like your transaxle) to
the factory engineering teams to take apart and see the root cause of
failure, and make improvements on the design. Many times, this results in a
backorder situation, as they are trying to build new cars and send out
replacement assemblies at the same time. The factory will sometimes collect
data this way for several years before allowing techs in the field to repair
instead of replace. Allison transmissions in trucks are like this. They
came out about three years ago in GM trucks, and we are just now being
allowed to service only very specific parts of it, because the analysis is
ongoing.
Yes, mistakes happen. Yes, wiresets for Northstar-type engines are
expensive. Yes, there are morons at the dealership level. Yes, there are
guys in just about every garage of any size that probably don't have any
business working on cars. The industry has become much more
knowledge-intense. Used to be that wrenching was what you did when you
lacked other skills, like a fallback. It isn't so anymore, but some of
those guys that fell back are still lingering around, combined with shop
owners trying to "grow their own" technicians due to a lack of qualified
techs in the workforce. I guess the quality downturn is symptomatic of the
lack of qualified techs.
Speaking of your oil leak... we don't see those much anymore, but boy howdy,
how we made a bunch of money fixing those. Auroras pretty much need to have
the engine removed to do it (it's easier, anyway), but the Cadillac
Northstars were done in-car. I only do 3-4 of them a year now, but I still
do them in about 4-5 hours. Book time is about 18. Lately, we are doing a
lot of piston replacements in late model Cadillac's for cold knocking. I
have that procedure down to about 7.5 hours, and it pays 20 at the factory's
expense.
The vast majority of the dealer techs I have known are true professionals,
and worth the money that they make and more. There are boneheads in every
shop I have ever worked in as well. It is probably fair to say that even
the pros act like boneheads once in awhile. Everyone has a story relative
to their own automotive repair nightmare. It seems like the prevailing
opinion on this thread is that mechanics don't deserve the money they make.
There are a couple of dissenters, but that is the impression that I get. I
don't begrudge anyone's living, from the sanitation worker in San Francisco,
to Bill Gates. It is a free market society, and everyone is entitled to
spend their money any way they like. I am pretty sure that Nathan isn't
donating his skill and equipment when he goes to a welding job. You don't
go out and buy Rubicon's and Dodge Ram's on minimum wage. More power to
Nathan, I hope he makes 200k this year.
Well, anyway, I just wanted to respond to you directly about your Aurora,
and commiserate with you a little. Have a good day in the Great White North.
Jerry
"Steve G" <NospamforSteve@Steve-Garner.com> wrote in message
news:NbgNb.94441$X%5.25595@pd7tw2no...
> Jerry,
> I'm a mechanic by trade that hasn't worked in the field for some 17 years.
> I worked for independants, never in a dealership. In recent years I've
been
> standing on the other side of the service counter and I can tell you
without
> question that here in my parts, Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada, the quality of
> workmanship and level of knowledge in the dealerships that I've had
contact
> with is pathetic. I have a 96 Aurora and have a litany of stories with
the
> dealers that would absolutely curl your toes. The original selling dealer
> had the car almost 2 months for the trans, had the trans and out several
> times, broke the shift indicater in the console ($1400) when the put the
> indicater lite harness back wrong while replacing the lighter, put the
dash
> bezel back on with 2 way tape when the broke the tabs removing it to
replace
> the speeedo, picked it up after thr trans job (they finally got a factory
> reman) and had antifreeze pouring on the ground from a loose hose when I
> drove it away, wanted to sell me a new a/c compressor when the clutch brg
> packed up ($1900, I had just the clutch repaired instead for $200 and
still
> going strong 120,000 km later), and on and on. I decided to go to
another
> dealer where my father-in law had been service manager for years when it
> lost 1 cylinder. Had a $600 tune-up. Drove fine for a week and another
> cylinder was out. Took it back and they replaced a plug wire. A couple
of
> weeks later same thing again, different cyl. They wanted to replace the
> entire set at a cost of $360 for the wire set. Something didn't seem
right,
> the car had less than 60,000miles (100,000 km) and the plug wires had been
> replaced once while the car was under warranty. I didn't want to pay $360
> for a set of wires so I bought a quality set of aftermarket wires for $60.
> After a couple of weeks, same problem. This time I pulled the plugs,
> (they're deep inside tubes in the head) . Discovered that when the
> mechanic? changed the plugs at my $600 tune-up he used the same antiseize
> grease that's supposed to be used on the threads to coat the inside of
the
> plug wire boots, in place of the dielectric silicone grease that is
supposed
> to be used there. The grease was shorting the wires down the side of the
> plugs.
> I now do my own work on my vehicles again. Going to a dealership is no
> assurance of quality repairs. Whenever I took it back and things elevated
> to the service manager level they defended their technicians and tried to
> feed me more bull. That really frosted me. I knew better, but what about
> the average consumer that doesn't?
> Sorry, I rant. I get so burned eveerytime I start thinking of all these
> stories. At one point I had the original selling dealer pull every
warranty
> repair they had ever done on the car. I hadn't owned it from new, but it
> was still under warranty when I bought it. Every subsequent problem that
I
> had could be tied to a previous work order. My discovery of the dash
rattle
> and the broken bezel, matched the speedo head replacement, broken shifter
> indicater, matched the cigar lighter replacement work order, cut up and
> bared wires in the engine side wiring harness, matched their search for
the
> problem with the low oil level indicater. Eventually I pulled the engine
> myself to repair the seal between the crankcase halves (northstar) and
> discovered missing and loose bolts related to the trans work, the engine
> wiring harness not routed properly and fried against the exhaust manifold.
> These are just the tip. I've got a dozen more.
> Steve
> "Jerry Newton" <figatmcttelecom.com> wrote in message
> news:4004a4f7_1@newspeer2.tds.net...
> > They don't "do it because they can", Nathan. The overhead of my
> particular
> > service department, before paying the tech, is about $42 an hour. This
> > isn't a gas station, this is a 23 bay repair facility, with every
special
> > tool and piece of equipment necessary to fix anything on the cars we
work
> > on. We don't have the luxury of telling an owner "you will have to take
> it
> > somewhere else, we don't do that here."
> >
> > Refrigerant recovery machines are about $5000. A brake lathe that is
> > capable of turning out rotors with less that .001 lateral runout while
> > turning 50 rotors per day is about $10,000. A handheld scan tool with
> which
> > to diagnose and reprogram your car is about $3000. These are just three
> > examples of shop equipment. We need two recovery machines, four brake
> > lathes, and five scan tools. You do the math. This is just the tip of
> the
> > iceberg.
> >
> > Factory training isn't free. It also isn't voluntary. If you want to
> work
> > at the dealership level, you have to attend training, as the
manufacturers
> > make changes every year to major components and electrical/electronic
> > systems. We can't be five years behind the curve like the gas station
> guys,
> > then learn it as we go.
> >
> > For all of the complaining about the cost of dealership labor, there are
> > still cars lined up out to the street, waiting to be serviced. It
defies
> > logic. You would think that a shop that supposedly gouges customers
> > "because we can" wouldn't be in business for 50+ years.
> >
> > Seems there was a thread on this topic just a month or so ago. Perhaps
> Lon
> > can refresh our memories.
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> >
> >
> > "Nathan Collier" <JeepMail@7SlotGrille.com> wrote in message
> > news:dfWMb.221803$Vu5.16486442@twister.southeast.r r.com...
> > > a typical dealership mechanic averages around $15-$17 an hour. the
> > > dealership has to pay for all the shop expenses including insurance
and
> > > match the mechanics ss deductions but its still a rip to charge $75 an
> > hour.
> > > they do it because they can.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Nathan W. Collier
> > > http://7SlotGrille.com
> > > http://UtilityOffRoad.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
#176
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: What does the Mechanic get
"Nathan Collier" <JeepMail@7SlotGrille.com> wrote in message
news:ri7Nb.2066$cQ1.319503@twister.southeast.rr.co m...
> "Jerry Newton" <figatmcttelecom.com> wrote in message
> news:4004a4f7_1@newspeer2.tds.net...
> > They don't "do it because they can", Nathan.
>
> ive seen far to many examples of dealership abuse to buy any dealership
sob
> stories about overhead and expenses. a large portion of the expense may
be
> justified, but a lot of it goes to pay for dealership inefficiency and
> ineptness.
>
> --
> Nathan W. Collier
> http://7SlotGrille.com
> http://UtilityOffRoad.com
>
>
>
A dealership isn't always a model of efficiency. It is the place that you
take your car to get the best service. It is where you go when your local
mechanic tells you that he can't (or doesn't want to) do the job you have
asked him to do. Although there are exceptions to every rule, overall, you
will not find a better trained, better equipped mechanic than you will find
at your dealership. I am sorry that you have such bad feelings about your
dealer, and I certainly don't defend anyone that I don't know. I do,
however, defend my occupation as a whole. Like I posted elsewhere in this
thread, I don't begrudge anyone's method of making a living, nor how much of
a living they make. Running a service department on the scale of 23 techs
is not an inexpensive enterprise, and the cost at the cashier's cage is
justifiable. It is what the market will bear. If that weren't true, then
dealership service departments would cease to exist.
Have a nice day.
Jerry
#177
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: What does the Mechanic get
"Nathan Collier" <JeepMail@7SlotGrille.com> wrote in message
news:ri7Nb.2066$cQ1.319503@twister.southeast.rr.co m...
> "Jerry Newton" <figatmcttelecom.com> wrote in message
> news:4004a4f7_1@newspeer2.tds.net...
> > They don't "do it because they can", Nathan.
>
> ive seen far to many examples of dealership abuse to buy any dealership
sob
> stories about overhead and expenses. a large portion of the expense may
be
> justified, but a lot of it goes to pay for dealership inefficiency and
> ineptness.
>
> --
> Nathan W. Collier
> http://7SlotGrille.com
> http://UtilityOffRoad.com
>
>
>
A dealership isn't always a model of efficiency. It is the place that you
take your car to get the best service. It is where you go when your local
mechanic tells you that he can't (or doesn't want to) do the job you have
asked him to do. Although there are exceptions to every rule, overall, you
will not find a better trained, better equipped mechanic than you will find
at your dealership. I am sorry that you have such bad feelings about your
dealer, and I certainly don't defend anyone that I don't know. I do,
however, defend my occupation as a whole. Like I posted elsewhere in this
thread, I don't begrudge anyone's method of making a living, nor how much of
a living they make. Running a service department on the scale of 23 techs
is not an inexpensive enterprise, and the cost at the cashier's cage is
justifiable. It is what the market will bear. If that weren't true, then
dealership service departments would cease to exist.
Have a nice day.
Jerry
#178
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: What does the Mechanic get
"Nathan Collier" <JeepMail@7SlotGrille.com> wrote in message
news:ri7Nb.2066$cQ1.319503@twister.southeast.rr.co m...
> "Jerry Newton" <figatmcttelecom.com> wrote in message
> news:4004a4f7_1@newspeer2.tds.net...
> > They don't "do it because they can", Nathan.
>
> ive seen far to many examples of dealership abuse to buy any dealership
sob
> stories about overhead and expenses. a large portion of the expense may
be
> justified, but a lot of it goes to pay for dealership inefficiency and
> ineptness.
>
> --
> Nathan W. Collier
> http://7SlotGrille.com
> http://UtilityOffRoad.com
>
>
>
A dealership isn't always a model of efficiency. It is the place that you
take your car to get the best service. It is where you go when your local
mechanic tells you that he can't (or doesn't want to) do the job you have
asked him to do. Although there are exceptions to every rule, overall, you
will not find a better trained, better equipped mechanic than you will find
at your dealership. I am sorry that you have such bad feelings about your
dealer, and I certainly don't defend anyone that I don't know. I do,
however, defend my occupation as a whole. Like I posted elsewhere in this
thread, I don't begrudge anyone's method of making a living, nor how much of
a living they make. Running a service department on the scale of 23 techs
is not an inexpensive enterprise, and the cost at the cashier's cage is
justifiable. It is what the market will bear. If that weren't true, then
dealership service departments would cease to exist.
Have a nice day.
Jerry
#179
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: What does the Mechanic get
"The best service"?? Yes, it is often the only place to have a
recall repaired, and have warrantee work done.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Jerry Newton wrote:
>
> A dealership isn't always a model of efficiency. It is the place that you
> take your car to get the best service. It is where you go when your local
> mechanic tells you that he can't (or doesn't want to) do the job you have
> asked him to do. Although there are exceptions to every rule, overall, you
> will not find a better trained, better equipped mechanic than you will find
> at your dealership. I am sorry that you have such bad feelings about your
> dealer, and I certainly don't defend anyone that I don't know. I do,
> however, defend my occupation as a whole. Like I posted elsewhere in this
> thread, I don't begrudge anyone's method of making a living, nor how much of
> a living they make. Running a service department on the scale of 23 techs
> is not an inexpensive enterprise, and the cost at the cashier's cage is
> justifiable. It is what the market will bear. If that weren't true, then
> dealership service departments would cease to exist.
>
> Have a nice day.
>
> Jerry
recall repaired, and have warrantee work done.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Jerry Newton wrote:
>
> A dealership isn't always a model of efficiency. It is the place that you
> take your car to get the best service. It is where you go when your local
> mechanic tells you that he can't (or doesn't want to) do the job you have
> asked him to do. Although there are exceptions to every rule, overall, you
> will not find a better trained, better equipped mechanic than you will find
> at your dealership. I am sorry that you have such bad feelings about your
> dealer, and I certainly don't defend anyone that I don't know. I do,
> however, defend my occupation as a whole. Like I posted elsewhere in this
> thread, I don't begrudge anyone's method of making a living, nor how much of
> a living they make. Running a service department on the scale of 23 techs
> is not an inexpensive enterprise, and the cost at the cashier's cage is
> justifiable. It is what the market will bear. If that weren't true, then
> dealership service departments would cease to exist.
>
> Have a nice day.
>
> Jerry
#180
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: What does the Mechanic get
"The best service"?? Yes, it is often the only place to have a
recall repaired, and have warrantee work done.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Jerry Newton wrote:
>
> A dealership isn't always a model of efficiency. It is the place that you
> take your car to get the best service. It is where you go when your local
> mechanic tells you that he can't (or doesn't want to) do the job you have
> asked him to do. Although there are exceptions to every rule, overall, you
> will not find a better trained, better equipped mechanic than you will find
> at your dealership. I am sorry that you have such bad feelings about your
> dealer, and I certainly don't defend anyone that I don't know. I do,
> however, defend my occupation as a whole. Like I posted elsewhere in this
> thread, I don't begrudge anyone's method of making a living, nor how much of
> a living they make. Running a service department on the scale of 23 techs
> is not an inexpensive enterprise, and the cost at the cashier's cage is
> justifiable. It is what the market will bear. If that weren't true, then
> dealership service departments would cease to exist.
>
> Have a nice day.
>
> Jerry
recall repaired, and have warrantee work done.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Jerry Newton wrote:
>
> A dealership isn't always a model of efficiency. It is the place that you
> take your car to get the best service. It is where you go when your local
> mechanic tells you that he can't (or doesn't want to) do the job you have
> asked him to do. Although there are exceptions to every rule, overall, you
> will not find a better trained, better equipped mechanic than you will find
> at your dealership. I am sorry that you have such bad feelings about your
> dealer, and I certainly don't defend anyone that I don't know. I do,
> however, defend my occupation as a whole. Like I posted elsewhere in this
> thread, I don't begrudge anyone's method of making a living, nor how much of
> a living they make. Running a service department on the scale of 23 techs
> is not an inexpensive enterprise, and the cost at the cashier's cage is
> justifiable. It is what the market will bear. If that weren't true, then
> dealership service departments would cease to exist.
>
> Have a nice day.
>
> Jerry