Agreed. Although, if you're traveling sideways you're already out of
control. Here I'm thinking of my last sideways trip on a particular
steep driveway.


Mike Romain wrote:
> That happens to us all the time coming down sand pit and ravine walls.
> We do these year round.
>
> Contrary to what might seem right, you have to give it some gas to keep
> control. If you drop back on the gas, the tires can/will stall and
> break free and it's the same as if you had the brake pedal mashed.
>
> If you use the gas and gears right, auto or stick, you can keep the
> wheels turning enough to hold steering control. That is why I like 3rd
> low. It has braking power without too much grab to stall the wheels and
> start a slide. If I am in 2nd, I can stall the wheels if I don't keep
> the rpm high, 1st is useless for descending.
>
> Trying to go too slow can get you into trouble.
>
> Going into neutral can get you killed besides being illegal in every
> state or country I have checked in. In neutral, you are 'out' of
> control.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> Vince Hodgson wrote:
>
>>0K, here's the thing....
>>doesn't matter what you do, if you are starting to slide and its in gear and
>>your foots off the brake, your tires are still turning, just not turning
>>fast enough.
>>
>>therefore, you might as well be slamming on the binders, cause your not in
>>control anymore.
>>
>>best bet in any situation it to slap it into neutral and use the brakes.
>>that way the tires keep turning at the right speed and you can start to
>>regain control with the brake peddle.
>>
>>just my 0.2 cents. had an ice situation happen in 4wd and did 360's down a
>>hill (no brakes) and I definitely know if I kicked it into neutral or
>>pushed in the clutch, i could have regained control again.
>><xyzz4569@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
>>news:1142369786.243719.87620@z34g2000cwc.googleg roups.com...
>>
>>>An automatic has plenty of compression braking if in 1st gear and low
>>>range 4WD. I realize that a manual has more braking ability, but an
>>>automatic still has a LOT.
>>>
>>>Tom
>>>
>>>Lee Ayrton wrote:
>>>
>>>>You can count on one brake locking up before the others, making control
>>>>on a slippery surface more, um, challenging. The OP was doubly hampered
>>>>by his auto tranny that wouldn't hold him back the way a standard would
>>>>have.
>>>>
>>>


--

This website supports what I thought would be true, So It Must Be
(tm).” David Winsemius willingly creates an anti-motto at room
temperature in AFU Labs.

 

The state cops on Colorado practice on Georgetown lake after it freezes up.
It's fun to watch.

Earle

"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:44174F1B.C7664F11@sympatico.ca...
> The OP was 'not' trying to stop, he was trying to do a controlled
> decent.
>
> Putting a 4x4 vehicle into neutral is a last resort when you are 'out of
> control'. You may be able to stop, but you won't have control.
>
> What works 'for me in my Jeep' is just by pure coincidence the 'exact'
> way the Jeep engineers say to hold control in 'both' my CJ7's and my
> XJ's owners manuals. Hmm.....
>
> What worked in your 2 wheel drive cruiser was right for the cruiser.
> Neutral can save your butt when the proportioning valve won't lock the
> rear drive wheels and they want to push you on through the intersection.
>
> As a cop, I 'highly' doubt you were trained in 4x4 control. It is
> 'nothing' like controlling a rear wheel drive cruiser, not even close.
> Even a front wheel drive car reacts different than the rear wheel drive
> cruiser. With the front wheel drive you 'give' it gas to control a
> corner and your steering. In a part time 4x4 system, when you lock the
> front brakes, All 4 wheels lock up and you go sideways faster than you
> can blink. That is why you see a lot of them in the ditch on exit
> ramps. They went to neutral and hit the brakes to slow down because
> they 'heard that works' and zing, there they be in the ditch.
>
> As a cop you also should be aware that coasting downhill in neutral is
> totally illegal for the reason you cannot hold control of the vehicle.
> The suspension unloads and floats and you lose any engine braking
> control.
>
> I am serious when I said I take out groups of Jeepers to learn how to
> control their Jeeps in snow and ice. I have done a lot of trips with
> bunches of them posted on the net at alt.binaries.pictures.autos.4x4.
>
> I have tried the stopping at a mark test many many times and have tried
> all combinations to get stopped. In gear with no brakes until the last
> second still works best.
>
> I 'highly' recommend folks hit an empty parking lot come first good snow
> and try their 4x4 out. It will amaze and scare them with what can
> happen fast. Be prepared to answer the cop correctly by saying you are
> learning 4x4 when he accuses you of 'stunting' in the parking lot. ;-)
>
> Mike
>
> Spdloader wrote:
> >
> > I have saved myself from accidents more times than I can count by
shifting
> > to neutral, from an automatic or standard transmission.
> >
> > I learned this driving technique when I was trained to be a law
enforcement
> > officer twenty years ago, by people trained and qualified to do so, not
by
> > someone that thinks what works for him in his Jeep is best for everyone.
> >
> > Shifting to neutral does not automatically make you "out of control" as
you
> > put it, but, helps regain control of the vehicle.
> >
> > Accelerating to regain control is not the correct answer if you are
trying
> > to STOP the vehicle. You're just making things worse.
> >
> > Try it next time you are on ice or a slick road and pulling up to an
> > intersection, or coming up on a situation where you must stop or turn.
Shift
> > into neutral and see for yourself under which circumstances you maintain
> > better control of your vehicle.
> >
> > Spdloader
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:44174066.7DB08BE4@sympatico.ca...
> > > That happens to us all the time coming down sand pit and ravine walls.
> > > We do these year round.
> > >
> > > Contrary to what might seem right, you have to give it some gas to
keep
> > > control. If you drop back on the gas, the tires can/will stall and
> > > break free and it's the same as if you had the brake pedal mashed.
> > >
> > > If you use the gas and gears right, auto or stick, you can keep the
> > > wheels turning enough to hold steering control. That is why I like
3rd
> > > low. It has braking power without too much grab to stall the wheels
and
> > > start a slide. If I am in 2nd, I can stall the wheels if I don't keep
> > > the rpm high, 1st is useless for descending.
> > >
> > > Trying to go too slow can get you into trouble.
> > >
> > > Going into neutral can get you killed besides being illegal in every
> > > state or country I have checked in. In neutral, you are 'out' of
> > > control.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> > > Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> > > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
> > >
> > > Vince Hodgson wrote:
> > >>
> > >> 0K, here's the thing....
> > >> doesn't matter what you do, if you are starting to slide and its in
gear
> > >> and
> > >> your foots off the brake, your tires are still turning, just not
turning
> > >> fast enough.
> > >>
> > >> therefore, you might as well be slamming on the binders, cause your
not
> > >> in
> > >> control anymore.
> > >>
> > >> best bet in any situation it to slap it into neutral and use the
brakes.
> > >> that way the tires keep turning at the right speed and you can start
to
> > >> regain control with the brake peddle.
> > >>
> > >> just my 0.2 cents. had an ice situation happen in 4wd and did 360's
down
> > >> a
> > >> hill (no brakes) and I definitely know if I kicked it into neutral
or
> > >> pushed in the clutch, i could have regained control again.
> > >> <xyzz4569@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
> > >> news:1142369786.243719.87620@z34g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com...
> > >> > An automatic has plenty of compression braking if in 1st gear and
low
> > >> > range 4WD. I realize that a manual has more braking ability, but an
> > >> > automatic still has a LOT.
> > >> >
> > >> > Tom
> > >> >
> > >> > Lee Ayrton wrote:
> > >> > > You can count on one brake locking up before the others, making
> > >> > > control
> > >> > > on a slippery surface more, um, challenging. The OP was doubly
> > >> > > hampered
> > >> > > by his auto tranny that wouldn't hold him back the way a standard
> > >> > > would
> > >> > > have.
> > >> > >
> > >> >

 

The state cops on Colorado practice on Georgetown lake after it freezes up.
It's fun to watch.

Earle

"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:44174F1B.C7664F11@sympatico.ca...
> The OP was 'not' trying to stop, he was trying to do a controlled
> decent.
>
> Putting a 4x4 vehicle into neutral is a last resort when you are 'out of
> control'. You may be able to stop, but you won't have control.
>
> What works 'for me in my Jeep' is just by pure coincidence the 'exact'
> way the Jeep engineers say to hold control in 'both' my CJ7's and my
> XJ's owners manuals. Hmm.....
>
> What worked in your 2 wheel drive cruiser was right for the cruiser.
> Neutral can save your butt when the proportioning valve won't lock the
> rear drive wheels and they want to push you on through the intersection.
>
> As a cop, I 'highly' doubt you were trained in 4x4 control. It is
> 'nothing' like controlling a rear wheel drive cruiser, not even close.
> Even a front wheel drive car reacts different than the rear wheel drive
> cruiser. With the front wheel drive you 'give' it gas to control a
> corner and your steering. In a part time 4x4 system, when you lock the
> front brakes, All 4 wheels lock up and you go sideways faster than you
> can blink. That is why you see a lot of them in the ditch on exit
> ramps. They went to neutral and hit the brakes to slow down because
> they 'heard that works' and zing, there they be in the ditch.
>
> As a cop you also should be aware that coasting downhill in neutral is
> totally illegal for the reason you cannot hold control of the vehicle.
> The suspension unloads and floats and you lose any engine braking
> control.
>
> I am serious when I said I take out groups of Jeepers to learn how to
> control their Jeeps in snow and ice. I have done a lot of trips with
> bunches of them posted on the net at alt.binaries.pictures.autos.4x4.
>
> I have tried the stopping at a mark test many many times and have tried
> all combinations to get stopped. In gear with no brakes until the last
> second still works best.
>
> I 'highly' recommend folks hit an empty parking lot come first good snow
> and try their 4x4 out. It will amaze and scare them with what can
> happen fast. Be prepared to answer the cop correctly by saying you are
> learning 4x4 when he accuses you of 'stunting' in the parking lot. ;-)
>
> Mike
>
> Spdloader wrote:
> >
> > I have saved myself from accidents more times than I can count by
shifting
> > to neutral, from an automatic or standard transmission.
> >
> > I learned this driving technique when I was trained to be a law
enforcement
> > officer twenty years ago, by people trained and qualified to do so, not
by
> > someone that thinks what works for him in his Jeep is best for everyone.
> >
> > Shifting to neutral does not automatically make you "out of control" as
you
> > put it, but, helps regain control of the vehicle.
> >
> > Accelerating to regain control is not the correct answer if you are
trying
> > to STOP the vehicle. You're just making things worse.
> >
> > Try it next time you are on ice or a slick road and pulling up to an
> > intersection, or coming up on a situation where you must stop or turn.
Shift
> > into neutral and see for yourself under which circumstances you maintain
> > better control of your vehicle.
> >
> > Spdloader
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:44174066.7DB08BE4@sympatico.ca...
> > > That happens to us all the time coming down sand pit and ravine walls.
> > > We do these year round.
> > >
> > > Contrary to what might seem right, you have to give it some gas to
keep
> > > control. If you drop back on the gas, the tires can/will stall and
> > > break free and it's the same as if you had the brake pedal mashed.
> > >
> > > If you use the gas and gears right, auto or stick, you can keep the
> > > wheels turning enough to hold steering control. That is why I like
3rd
> > > low. It has braking power without too much grab to stall the wheels
and
> > > start a slide. If I am in 2nd, I can stall the wheels if I don't keep
> > > the rpm high, 1st is useless for descending.
> > >
> > > Trying to go too slow can get you into trouble.
> > >
> > > Going into neutral can get you killed besides being illegal in every
> > > state or country I have checked in. In neutral, you are 'out' of
> > > control.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> > > Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> > > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
> > >
> > > Vince Hodgson wrote:
> > >>
> > >> 0K, here's the thing....
> > >> doesn't matter what you do, if you are starting to slide and its in
gear
> > >> and
> > >> your foots off the brake, your tires are still turning, just not
turning
> > >> fast enough.
> > >>
> > >> therefore, you might as well be slamming on the binders, cause your
not
> > >> in
> > >> control anymore.
> > >>
> > >> best bet in any situation it to slap it into neutral and use the
brakes.
> > >> that way the tires keep turning at the right speed and you can start
to
> > >> regain control with the brake peddle.
> > >>
> > >> just my 0.2 cents. had an ice situation happen in 4wd and did 360's
down
> > >> a
> > >> hill (no brakes) and I definitely know if I kicked it into neutral
or
> > >> pushed in the clutch, i could have regained control again.
> > >> <xyzz4569@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
> > >> news:1142369786.243719.87620@z34g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com...
> > >> > An automatic has plenty of compression braking if in 1st gear and
low
> > >> > range 4WD. I realize that a manual has more braking ability, but an
> > >> > automatic still has a LOT.
> > >> >
> > >> > Tom
> > >> >
> > >> > Lee Ayrton wrote:
> > >> > > You can count on one brake locking up before the others, making
> > >> > > control
> > >> > > on a slippery surface more, um, challenging. The OP was doubly
> > >> > > hampered
> > >> > > by his auto tranny that wouldn't hold him back the way a standard
> > >> > > would
> > >> > > have.
> > >> > >
> > >> >

 

The state cops on Colorado practice on Georgetown lake after it freezes up.
It's fun to watch.

Earle

"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:44174F1B.C7664F11@sympatico.ca...
> The OP was 'not' trying to stop, he was trying to do a controlled
> decent.
>
> Putting a 4x4 vehicle into neutral is a last resort when you are 'out of
> control'. You may be able to stop, but you won't have control.
>
> What works 'for me in my Jeep' is just by pure coincidence the 'exact'
> way the Jeep engineers say to hold control in 'both' my CJ7's and my
> XJ's owners manuals. Hmm.....
>
> What worked in your 2 wheel drive cruiser was right for the cruiser.
> Neutral can save your butt when the proportioning valve won't lock the
> rear drive wheels and they want to push you on through the intersection.
>
> As a cop, I 'highly' doubt you were trained in 4x4 control. It is
> 'nothing' like controlling a rear wheel drive cruiser, not even close.
> Even a front wheel drive car reacts different than the rear wheel drive
> cruiser. With the front wheel drive you 'give' it gas to control a
> corner and your steering. In a part time 4x4 system, when you lock the
> front brakes, All 4 wheels lock up and you go sideways faster than you
> can blink. That is why you see a lot of them in the ditch on exit
> ramps. They went to neutral and hit the brakes to slow down because
> they 'heard that works' and zing, there they be in the ditch.
>
> As a cop you also should be aware that coasting downhill in neutral is
> totally illegal for the reason you cannot hold control of the vehicle.
> The suspension unloads and floats and you lose any engine braking
> control.
>
> I am serious when I said I take out groups of Jeepers to learn how to
> control their Jeeps in snow and ice. I have done a lot of trips with
> bunches of them posted on the net at alt.binaries.pictures.autos.4x4.
>
> I have tried the stopping at a mark test many many times and have tried
> all combinations to get stopped. In gear with no brakes until the last
> second still works best.
>
> I 'highly' recommend folks hit an empty parking lot come first good snow
> and try their 4x4 out. It will amaze and scare them with what can
> happen fast. Be prepared to answer the cop correctly by saying you are
> learning 4x4 when he accuses you of 'stunting' in the parking lot. ;-)
>
> Mike
>
> Spdloader wrote:
> >
> > I have saved myself from accidents more times than I can count by
shifting
> > to neutral, from an automatic or standard transmission.
> >
> > I learned this driving technique when I was trained to be a law
enforcement
> > officer twenty years ago, by people trained and qualified to do so, not
by
> > someone that thinks what works for him in his Jeep is best for everyone.
> >
> > Shifting to neutral does not automatically make you "out of control" as
you
> > put it, but, helps regain control of the vehicle.
> >
> > Accelerating to regain control is not the correct answer if you are
trying
> > to STOP the vehicle. You're just making things worse.
> >
> > Try it next time you are on ice or a slick road and pulling up to an
> > intersection, or coming up on a situation where you must stop or turn.
Shift
> > into neutral and see for yourself under which circumstances you maintain
> > better control of your vehicle.
> >
> > Spdloader
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:44174066.7DB08BE4@sympatico.ca...
> > > That happens to us all the time coming down sand pit and ravine walls.
> > > We do these year round.
> > >
> > > Contrary to what might seem right, you have to give it some gas to
keep
> > > control. If you drop back on the gas, the tires can/will stall and
> > > break free and it's the same as if you had the brake pedal mashed.
> > >
> > > If you use the gas and gears right, auto or stick, you can keep the
> > > wheels turning enough to hold steering control. That is why I like
3rd
> > > low. It has braking power without too much grab to stall the wheels
and
> > > start a slide. If I am in 2nd, I can stall the wheels if I don't keep
> > > the rpm high, 1st is useless for descending.
> > >
> > > Trying to go too slow can get you into trouble.
> > >
> > > Going into neutral can get you killed besides being illegal in every
> > > state or country I have checked in. In neutral, you are 'out' of
> > > control.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> > > Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> > > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
> > >
> > > Vince Hodgson wrote:
> > >>
> > >> 0K, here's the thing....
> > >> doesn't matter what you do, if you are starting to slide and its in
gear
> > >> and
> > >> your foots off the brake, your tires are still turning, just not
turning
> > >> fast enough.
> > >>
> > >> therefore, you might as well be slamming on the binders, cause your
not
> > >> in
> > >> control anymore.
> > >>
> > >> best bet in any situation it to slap it into neutral and use the
brakes.
> > >> that way the tires keep turning at the right speed and you can start
to
> > >> regain control with the brake peddle.
> > >>
> > >> just my 0.2 cents. had an ice situation happen in 4wd and did 360's
down
> > >> a
> > >> hill (no brakes) and I definitely know if I kicked it into neutral
or
> > >> pushed in the clutch, i could have regained control again.
> > >> <xyzz4569@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
> > >> news:1142369786.243719.87620@z34g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com...
> > >> > An automatic has plenty of compression braking if in 1st gear and
low
> > >> > range 4WD. I realize that a manual has more braking ability, but an
> > >> > automatic still has a LOT.
> > >> >
> > >> > Tom
> > >> >
> > >> > Lee Ayrton wrote:
> > >> > > You can count on one brake locking up before the others, making
> > >> > > control
> > >> > > on a slippery surface more, um, challenging. The OP was doubly
> > >> > > hampered
> > >> > > by his auto tranny that wouldn't hold him back the way a standard
> > >> > > would
> > >> > > have.
> > >> > >
> > >> >

 

The state cops on Colorado practice on Georgetown lake after it freezes up.
It's fun to watch.

Earle

"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:44174F1B.C7664F11@sympatico.ca...
> The OP was 'not' trying to stop, he was trying to do a controlled
> decent.
>
> Putting a 4x4 vehicle into neutral is a last resort when you are 'out of
> control'. You may be able to stop, but you won't have control.
>
> What works 'for me in my Jeep' is just by pure coincidence the 'exact'
> way the Jeep engineers say to hold control in 'both' my CJ7's and my
> XJ's owners manuals. Hmm.....
>
> What worked in your 2 wheel drive cruiser was right for the cruiser.
> Neutral can save your butt when the proportioning valve won't lock the
> rear drive wheels and they want to push you on through the intersection.
>
> As a cop, I 'highly' doubt you were trained in 4x4 control. It is
> 'nothing' like controlling a rear wheel drive cruiser, not even close.
> Even a front wheel drive car reacts different than the rear wheel drive
> cruiser. With the front wheel drive you 'give' it gas to control a
> corner and your steering. In a part time 4x4 system, when you lock the
> front brakes, All 4 wheels lock up and you go sideways faster than you
> can blink. That is why you see a lot of them in the ditch on exit
> ramps. They went to neutral and hit the brakes to slow down because
> they 'heard that works' and zing, there they be in the ditch.
>
> As a cop you also should be aware that coasting downhill in neutral is
> totally illegal for the reason you cannot hold control of the vehicle.
> The suspension unloads and floats and you lose any engine braking
> control.
>
> I am serious when I said I take out groups of Jeepers to learn how to
> control their Jeeps in snow and ice. I have done a lot of trips with
> bunches of them posted on the net at alt.binaries.pictures.autos.4x4.
>
> I have tried the stopping at a mark test many many times and have tried
> all combinations to get stopped. In gear with no brakes until the last
> second still works best.
>
> I 'highly' recommend folks hit an empty parking lot come first good snow
> and try their 4x4 out. It will amaze and scare them with what can
> happen fast. Be prepared to answer the cop correctly by saying you are
> learning 4x4 when he accuses you of 'stunting' in the parking lot. ;-)
>
> Mike
>
> Spdloader wrote:
> >
> > I have saved myself from accidents more times than I can count by
shifting
> > to neutral, from an automatic or standard transmission.
> >
> > I learned this driving technique when I was trained to be a law
enforcement
> > officer twenty years ago, by people trained and qualified to do so, not
by
> > someone that thinks what works for him in his Jeep is best for everyone.
> >
> > Shifting to neutral does not automatically make you "out of control" as
you
> > put it, but, helps regain control of the vehicle.
> >
> > Accelerating to regain control is not the correct answer if you are
trying
> > to STOP the vehicle. You're just making things worse.
> >
> > Try it next time you are on ice or a slick road and pulling up to an
> > intersection, or coming up on a situation where you must stop or turn.
Shift
> > into neutral and see for yourself under which circumstances you maintain
> > better control of your vehicle.
> >
> > Spdloader
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:44174066.7DB08BE4@sympatico.ca...
> > > That happens to us all the time coming down sand pit and ravine walls.
> > > We do these year round.
> > >
> > > Contrary to what might seem right, you have to give it some gas to
keep
> > > control. If you drop back on the gas, the tires can/will stall and
> > > break free and it's the same as if you had the brake pedal mashed.
> > >
> > > If you use the gas and gears right, auto or stick, you can keep the
> > > wheels turning enough to hold steering control. That is why I like
3rd
> > > low. It has braking power without too much grab to stall the wheels
and
> > > start a slide. If I am in 2nd, I can stall the wheels if I don't keep
> > > the rpm high, 1st is useless for descending.
> > >
> > > Trying to go too slow can get you into trouble.
> > >
> > > Going into neutral can get you killed besides being illegal in every
> > > state or country I have checked in. In neutral, you are 'out' of
> > > control.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> > > Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> > > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
> > >
> > > Vince Hodgson wrote:
> > >>
> > >> 0K, here's the thing....
> > >> doesn't matter what you do, if you are starting to slide and its in
gear
> > >> and
> > >> your foots off the brake, your tires are still turning, just not
turning
> > >> fast enough.
> > >>
> > >> therefore, you might as well be slamming on the binders, cause your
not
> > >> in
> > >> control anymore.
> > >>
> > >> best bet in any situation it to slap it into neutral and use the
brakes.
> > >> that way the tires keep turning at the right speed and you can start
to
> > >> regain control with the brake peddle.
> > >>
> > >> just my 0.2 cents. had an ice situation happen in 4wd and did 360's
down
> > >> a
> > >> hill (no brakes) and I definitely know if I kicked it into neutral
or
> > >> pushed in the clutch, i could have regained control again.
> > >> <xyzz4569@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
> > >> news:1142369786.243719.87620@z34g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com...
> > >> > An automatic has plenty of compression braking if in 1st gear and
low
> > >> > range 4WD. I realize that a manual has more braking ability, but an
> > >> > automatic still has a LOT.
> > >> >
> > >> > Tom
> > >> >
> > >> > Lee Ayrton wrote:
> > >> > > You can count on one brake locking up before the others, making
> > >> > > control
> > >> > > on a slippery surface more, um, challenging. The OP was doubly
> > >> > > hampered
> > >> > > by his auto tranny that wouldn't hold him back the way a standard
> > >> > > would
> > >> > > have.
> > >> > >
> > >> >

 

> The OP was 'not' trying to stop, he was trying to do a controlled
> decent.

---correct, it was I who offered it up as a suggested way to regain control,
then a few others agreed.

> Putting a 4x4 vehicle into neutral is a last resort when you are 'out of
> control'. You may be able to stop, but you won't have control.

---You usually don't have time to react, but in a slow speed slide because
your wheels don't have traction WILL correct itself if slipped into neutral
and the steering wheel turned toward the slide.

>
> What works 'for me in my Jeep' is just by pure coincidence the 'exact'
> way the Jeep engineers say to hold control in 'both' my CJ7's and my
> XJ's owners manuals. Hmm.....

---again, I think you offered up advice based on what works for you. I have
no problem with that, just don't deter someone from trying something else
when other things didn't work.
>
> What worked in your 2 wheel drive cruiser was right for the cruiser.
> Neutral can save your butt when the proportioning valve won't lock the
> rear drive wheels and they want to push you on through the intersection.

---exactly, and it works the same way in a 4WD vehicle.

>
> As a cop, I 'highly' doubt you were trained in 4x4 control. It is
> 'nothing' like controlling a rear wheel drive cruiser, not even close.
> Even a front wheel drive car reacts different than the rear wheel drive
> cruiser. With the front wheel drive you 'give' it gas to control a
> corner and your steering. In a part time 4x4 system, when you lock the
> front brakes, All 4 wheels lock up and you go sideways faster than you
> can blink. That is why you see a lot of them in the ditch on exit
> ramps. They went to neutral and hit the brakes to slow down because
> they 'heard that works' and zing, there they be in the ditch.

---it doesn't matter to me whether you believe or doubt my training. My
department in 1992 had 18 Crown Victorias, 12 Ford Taurus SHO's, 2 Chevy
Blazers 4WD, 8 Jeep Cherokee's all 4WD, and two Suzuki Samurai's also 4WD.

---in a part time system, all 4 wheels DO NOT lock up unless they are locked
together to start with.

---In the accidents I investigated, numbering in the very high hundreds,
SPEED was the single most cause of those accidents on exit ramps. Not
shifting into neutral, but SPEED. Driving too fast for conditions, merely
because they are in a 4WD, is what causes people to crash SUV's in inclement
weather. Not once in any report did anyone EVER tell me they had shifted
into neutral. By the way, shifting into neutral to stop OR regain control of
a vehicle is not against the law. You do it every time you come to a stop
sign, light, or parking lot, and that's the type of "shift into neutral I'm
talking about.
---
>
> As a cop you also should be aware that coasting downhill in neutral is
> totally illegal for the reason you cannot hold control of the vehicle.
> The suspension unloads and floats and you lose any engine braking
> control.

---Yes, I'm completely aware of the dynamics of driving. We are talking
about a slow, 5 or 6 mph downhill descent, not at highway speed down a
mountain "free for all".
>
> I am serious when I said I take out groups of Jeepers to learn how to
> control their Jeeps in snow and ice. I have done a lot of trips with
> bunches of them posted on the net at alt.binaries.pictures.autos.4x4.

---I don't doubt your ability, or experience with Jeeps at all. I'm sure you
have helped tons of people, you have helped me on a couple of things. I do
think you are closed minded to any ideas other than your own. I also think
you sometimes speak your opinion as fact. I have been in the exact
circumstance the OP talked about, he was basically describing the road up to
my driveway when I lived in the mountains of WV, where I went up and down
twice a day, every day, in the snow from December until mid March.

>
> I have tried the stopping at a mark test many many times and have tried
> all combinations to get stopped. In gear with no brakes until the last
> second still works best.

---Not on slick snow or ice.
>
> I 'highly' recommend folks hit an empty parking lot come first good snow
> and try their 4x4 out. It will amaze and scare them with what can
> happen fast. Be prepared to answer the cop correctly by saying you are
> learning 4x4 when he accuses you of 'stunting' in the parking lot. ;-)

---Agreed, but cops can't write tickets in parking lots as they are private
property. They can, ask you to leave if the owner of the establishment
wishes. That only pertains to NC and the MVC here. I don't know about where
you live.

Spdloader


>
> Mike
>
> Spdloader wrote:
>>
>> I have saved myself from accidents more times than I can count by
>> shifting
>> to neutral, from an automatic or standard transmission.
>>
>> I learned this driving technique when I was trained to be a law
>> enforcement
>> officer twenty years ago, by people trained and qualified to do so, not
>> by
>> someone that thinks what works for him in his Jeep is best for everyone.
>>
>> Shifting to neutral does not automatically make you "out of control" as
>> you
>> put it, but, helps regain control of the vehicle.
>>
>> Accelerating to regain control is not the correct answer if you are
>> trying
>> to STOP the vehicle. You're just making things worse.
>>
>> Try it next time you are on ice or a slick road and pulling up to an
>> intersection, or coming up on a situation where you must stop or turn.
>> Shift
>> into neutral and see for yourself under which circumstances you maintain
>> better control of your vehicle.
>>
>> Spdloader
>>
>> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> news:44174066.7DB08BE4@sympatico.ca...
>> > That happens to us all the time coming down sand pit and ravine walls.
>> > We do these year round.
>> >
>> > Contrary to what might seem right, you have to give it some gas to keep
>> > control. If you drop back on the gas, the tires can/will stall and
>> > break free and it's the same as if you had the brake pedal mashed.
>> >
>> > If you use the gas and gears right, auto or stick, you can keep the
>> > wheels turning enough to hold steering control. That is why I like 3rd
>> > low. It has braking power without too much grab to stall the wheels
>> > and
>> > start a slide. If I am in 2nd, I can stall the wheels if I don't keep
>> > the rpm high, 1st is useless for descending.
>> >
>> > Trying to go too slow can get you into trouble.
>> >
>> > Going into neutral can get you killed besides being illegal in every
>> > state or country I have checked in. In neutral, you are 'out' of
>> > control.
>> >
>> > Mike
>> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>> > Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>> > Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>> > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>> >
>> > Vince Hodgson wrote:
>> >>
>> >> 0K, here's the thing....
>> >> doesn't matter what you do, if you are starting to slide and its in
>> >> gear
>> >> and
>> >> your foots off the brake, your tires are still turning, just not
>> >> turning
>> >> fast enough.
>> >>
>> >> therefore, you might as well be slamming on the binders, cause your
>> >> not
>> >> in
>> >> control anymore.
>> >>
>> >> best bet in any situation it to slap it into neutral and use the
>> >> brakes.
>> >> that way the tires keep turning at the right speed and you can start
>> >> to
>> >> regain control with the brake peddle.
>> >>
>> >> just my 0.2 cents. had an ice situation happen in 4wd and did 360's
>> >> down
>> >> a
>> >> hill (no brakes) and I definitely know if I kicked it into neutral or
>> >> pushed in the clutch, i could have regained control again.
>> >> <xyzz4569@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
>> >> news:1142369786.243719.87620@z34g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com...
>> >> > An automatic has plenty of compression braking if in 1st gear and
>> >> > low
>> >> > range 4WD. I realize that a manual has more braking ability, but an
>> >> > automatic still has a LOT.
>> >> >
>> >> > Tom
>> >> >
>> >> > Lee Ayrton wrote:
>> >> > > You can count on one brake locking up before the others, making
>> >> > > control
>> >> > > on a slippery surface more, um, challenging. The OP was doubly
>> >> > > hampered
>> >> > > by his auto tranny that wouldn't hold him back the way a standard
>> >> > > would
>> >> > > have.
>> >> > >
>> >> >

 

> The OP was 'not' trying to stop, he was trying to do a controlled
> decent.

---correct, it was I who offered it up as a suggested way to regain control,
then a few others agreed.

> Putting a 4x4 vehicle into neutral is a last resort when you are 'out of
> control'. You may be able to stop, but you won't have control.

---You usually don't have time to react, but in a slow speed slide because
your wheels don't have traction WILL correct itself if slipped into neutral
and the steering wheel turned toward the slide.

>
> What works 'for me in my Jeep' is just by pure coincidence the 'exact'
> way the Jeep engineers say to hold control in 'both' my CJ7's and my
> XJ's owners manuals. Hmm.....

---again, I think you offered up advice based on what works for you. I have
no problem with that, just don't deter someone from trying something else
when other things didn't work.
>
> What worked in your 2 wheel drive cruiser was right for the cruiser.
> Neutral can save your butt when the proportioning valve won't lock the
> rear drive wheels and they want to push you on through the intersection.

---exactly, and it works the same way in a 4WD vehicle.

>
> As a cop, I 'highly' doubt you were trained in 4x4 control. It is
> 'nothing' like controlling a rear wheel drive cruiser, not even close.
> Even a front wheel drive car reacts different than the rear wheel drive
> cruiser. With the front wheel drive you 'give' it gas to control a
> corner and your steering. In a part time 4x4 system, when you lock the
> front brakes, All 4 wheels lock up and you go sideways faster than you
> can blink. That is why you see a lot of them in the ditch on exit
> ramps. They went to neutral and hit the brakes to slow down because
> they 'heard that works' and zing, there they be in the ditch.

---it doesn't matter to me whether you believe or doubt my training. My
department in 1992 had 18 Crown Victorias, 12 Ford Taurus SHO's, 2 Chevy
Blazers 4WD, 8 Jeep Cherokee's all 4WD, and two Suzuki Samurai's also 4WD.

---in a part time system, all 4 wheels DO NOT lock up unless they are locked
together to start with.

---In the accidents I investigated, numbering in the very high hundreds,
SPEED was the single most cause of those accidents on exit ramps. Not
shifting into neutral, but SPEED. Driving too fast for conditions, merely
because they are in a 4WD, is what causes people to crash SUV's in inclement
weather. Not once in any report did anyone EVER tell me they had shifted
into neutral. By the way, shifting into neutral to stop OR regain control of
a vehicle is not against the law. You do it every time you come to a stop
sign, light, or parking lot, and that's the type of "shift into neutral I'm
talking about.
---
>
> As a cop you also should be aware that coasting downhill in neutral is
> totally illegal for the reason you cannot hold control of the vehicle.
> The suspension unloads and floats and you lose any engine braking
> control.

---Yes, I'm completely aware of the dynamics of driving. We are talking
about a slow, 5 or 6 mph downhill descent, not at highway speed down a
mountain "free for all".
>
> I am serious when I said I take out groups of Jeepers to learn how to
> control their Jeeps in snow and ice. I have done a lot of trips with
> bunches of them posted on the net at alt.binaries.pictures.autos.4x4.

---I don't doubt your ability, or experience with Jeeps at all. I'm sure you
have helped tons of people, you have helped me on a couple of things. I do
think you are closed minded to any ideas other than your own. I also think
you sometimes speak your opinion as fact. I have been in the exact
circumstance the OP talked about, he was basically describing the road up to
my driveway when I lived in the mountains of WV, where I went up and down
twice a day, every day, in the snow from December until mid March.

>
> I have tried the stopping at a mark test many many times and have tried
> all combinations to get stopped. In gear with no brakes until the last
> second still works best.

---Not on slick snow or ice.
>
> I 'highly' recommend folks hit an empty parking lot come first good snow
> and try their 4x4 out. It will amaze and scare them with what can
> happen fast. Be prepared to answer the cop correctly by saying you are
> learning 4x4 when he accuses you of 'stunting' in the parking lot. ;-)

---Agreed, but cops can't write tickets in parking lots as they are private
property. They can, ask you to leave if the owner of the establishment
wishes. That only pertains to NC and the MVC here. I don't know about where
you live.

Spdloader


>
> Mike
>
> Spdloader wrote:
>>
>> I have saved myself from accidents more times than I can count by
>> shifting
>> to neutral, from an automatic or standard transmission.
>>
>> I learned this driving technique when I was trained to be a law
>> enforcement
>> officer twenty years ago, by people trained and qualified to do so, not
>> by
>> someone that thinks what works for him in his Jeep is best for everyone.
>>
>> Shifting to neutral does not automatically make you "out of control" as
>> you
>> put it, but, helps regain control of the vehicle.
>>
>> Accelerating to regain control is not the correct answer if you are
>> trying
>> to STOP the vehicle. You're just making things worse.
>>
>> Try it next time you are on ice or a slick road and pulling up to an
>> intersection, or coming up on a situation where you must stop or turn.
>> Shift
>> into neutral and see for yourself under which circumstances you maintain
>> better control of your vehicle.
>>
>> Spdloader
>>
>> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> news:44174066.7DB08BE4@sympatico.ca...
>> > That happens to us all the time coming down sand pit and ravine walls.
>> > We do these year round.
>> >
>> > Contrary to what might seem right, you have to give it some gas to keep
>> > control. If you drop back on the gas, the tires can/will stall and
>> > break free and it's the same as if you had the brake pedal mashed.
>> >
>> > If you use the gas and gears right, auto or stick, you can keep the
>> > wheels turning enough to hold steering control. That is why I like 3rd
>> > low. It has braking power without too much grab to stall the wheels
>> > and
>> > start a slide. If I am in 2nd, I can stall the wheels if I don't keep
>> > the rpm high, 1st is useless for descending.
>> >
>> > Trying to go too slow can get you into trouble.
>> >
>> > Going into neutral can get you killed besides being illegal in every
>> > state or country I have checked in. In neutral, you are 'out' of
>> > control.
>> >
>> > Mike
>> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>> > Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>> > Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>> > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>> >
>> > Vince Hodgson wrote:
>> >>
>> >> 0K, here's the thing....
>> >> doesn't matter what you do, if you are starting to slide and its in
>> >> gear
>> >> and
>> >> your foots off the brake, your tires are still turning, just not
>> >> turning
>> >> fast enough.
>> >>
>> >> therefore, you might as well be slamming on the binders, cause your
>> >> not
>> >> in
>> >> control anymore.
>> >>
>> >> best bet in any situation it to slap it into neutral and use the
>> >> brakes.
>> >> that way the tires keep turning at the right speed and you can start
>> >> to
>> >> regain control with the brake peddle.
>> >>
>> >> just my 0.2 cents. had an ice situation happen in 4wd and did 360's
>> >> down
>> >> a
>> >> hill (no brakes) and I definitely know if I kicked it into neutral or
>> >> pushed in the clutch, i could have regained control again.
>> >> <xyzz4569@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
>> >> news:1142369786.243719.87620@z34g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com...
>> >> > An automatic has plenty of compression braking if in 1st gear and
>> >> > low
>> >> > range 4WD. I realize that a manual has more braking ability, but an
>> >> > automatic still has a LOT.
>> >> >
>> >> > Tom
>> >> >
>> >> > Lee Ayrton wrote:
>> >> > > You can count on one brake locking up before the others, making
>> >> > > control
>> >> > > on a slippery surface more, um, challenging. The OP was doubly
>> >> > > hampered
>> >> > > by his auto tranny that wouldn't hold him back the way a standard
>> >> > > would
>> >> > > have.
>> >> > >
>> >> >

 

> The OP was 'not' trying to stop, he was trying to do a controlled
> decent.

---correct, it was I who offered it up as a suggested way to regain control,
then a few others agreed.

> Putting a 4x4 vehicle into neutral is a last resort when you are 'out of
> control'. You may be able to stop, but you won't have control.

---You usually don't have time to react, but in a slow speed slide because
your wheels don't have traction WILL correct itself if slipped into neutral
and the steering wheel turned toward the slide.

>
> What works 'for me in my Jeep' is just by pure coincidence the 'exact'
> way the Jeep engineers say to hold control in 'both' my CJ7's and my
> XJ's owners manuals. Hmm.....

---again, I think you offered up advice based on what works for you. I have
no problem with that, just don't deter someone from trying something else
when other things didn't work.
>
> What worked in your 2 wheel drive cruiser was right for the cruiser.
> Neutral can save your butt when the proportioning valve won't lock the
> rear drive wheels and they want to push you on through the intersection.

---exactly, and it works the same way in a 4WD vehicle.

>
> As a cop, I 'highly' doubt you were trained in 4x4 control. It is
> 'nothing' like controlling a rear wheel drive cruiser, not even close.
> Even a front wheel drive car reacts different than the rear wheel drive
> cruiser. With the front wheel drive you 'give' it gas to control a
> corner and your steering. In a part time 4x4 system, when you lock the
> front brakes, All 4 wheels lock up and you go sideways faster than you
> can blink. That is why you see a lot of them in the ditch on exit
> ramps. They went to neutral and hit the brakes to slow down because
> they 'heard that works' and zing, there they be in the ditch.

---it doesn't matter to me whether you believe or doubt my training. My
department in 1992 had 18 Crown Victorias, 12 Ford Taurus SHO's, 2 Chevy
Blazers 4WD, 8 Jeep Cherokee's all 4WD, and two Suzuki Samurai's also 4WD.

---in a part time system, all 4 wheels DO NOT lock up unless they are locked
together to start with.

---In the accidents I investigated, numbering in the very high hundreds,
SPEED was the single most cause of those accidents on exit ramps. Not
shifting into neutral, but SPEED. Driving too fast for conditions, merely
because they are in a 4WD, is what causes people to crash SUV's in inclement
weather. Not once in any report did anyone EVER tell me they had shifted
into neutral. By the way, shifting into neutral to stop OR regain control of
a vehicle is not against the law. You do it every time you come to a stop
sign, light, or parking lot, and that's the type of "shift into neutral I'm
talking about.
---
>
> As a cop you also should be aware that coasting downhill in neutral is
> totally illegal for the reason you cannot hold control of the vehicle.
> The suspension unloads and floats and you lose any engine braking
> control.

---Yes, I'm completely aware of the dynamics of driving. We are talking
about a slow, 5 or 6 mph downhill descent, not at highway speed down a
mountain "free for all".
>
> I am serious when I said I take out groups of Jeepers to learn how to
> control their Jeeps in snow and ice. I have done a lot of trips with
> bunches of them posted on the net at alt.binaries.pictures.autos.4x4.

---I don't doubt your ability, or experience with Jeeps at all. I'm sure you
have helped tons of people, you have helped me on a couple of things. I do
think you are closed minded to any ideas other than your own. I also think
you sometimes speak your opinion as fact. I have been in the exact
circumstance the OP talked about, he was basically describing the road up to
my driveway when I lived in the mountains of WV, where I went up and down
twice a day, every day, in the snow from December until mid March.

>
> I have tried the stopping at a mark test many many times and have tried
> all combinations to get stopped. In gear with no brakes until the last
> second still works best.

---Not on slick snow or ice.
>
> I 'highly' recommend folks hit an empty parking lot come first good snow
> and try their 4x4 out. It will amaze and scare them with what can
> happen fast. Be prepared to answer the cop correctly by saying you are
> learning 4x4 when he accuses you of 'stunting' in the parking lot. ;-)

---Agreed, but cops can't write tickets in parking lots as they are private
property. They can, ask you to leave if the owner of the establishment
wishes. That only pertains to NC and the MVC here. I don't know about where
you live.

Spdloader


>
> Mike
>
> Spdloader wrote:
>>
>> I have saved myself from accidents more times than I can count by
>> shifting
>> to neutral, from an automatic or standard transmission.
>>
>> I learned this driving technique when I was trained to be a law
>> enforcement
>> officer twenty years ago, by people trained and qualified to do so, not
>> by
>> someone that thinks what works for him in his Jeep is best for everyone.
>>
>> Shifting to neutral does not automatically make you "out of control" as
>> you
>> put it, but, helps regain control of the vehicle.
>>
>> Accelerating to regain control is not the correct answer if you are
>> trying
>> to STOP the vehicle. You're just making things worse.
>>
>> Try it next time you are on ice or a slick road and pulling up to an
>> intersection, or coming up on a situation where you must stop or turn.
>> Shift
>> into neutral and see for yourself under which circumstances you maintain
>> better control of your vehicle.
>>
>> Spdloader
>>
>> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> news:44174066.7DB08BE4@sympatico.ca...
>> > That happens to us all the time coming down sand pit and ravine walls.
>> > We do these year round.
>> >
>> > Contrary to what might seem right, you have to give it some gas to keep
>> > control. If you drop back on the gas, the tires can/will stall and
>> > break free and it's the same as if you had the brake pedal mashed.
>> >
>> > If you use the gas and gears right, auto or stick, you can keep the
>> > wheels turning enough to hold steering control. That is why I like 3rd
>> > low. It has braking power without too much grab to stall the wheels
>> > and
>> > start a slide. If I am in 2nd, I can stall the wheels if I don't keep
>> > the rpm high, 1st is useless for descending.
>> >
>> > Trying to go too slow can get you into trouble.
>> >
>> > Going into neutral can get you killed besides being illegal in every
>> > state or country I have checked in. In neutral, you are 'out' of
>> > control.
>> >
>> > Mike
>> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>> > Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>> > Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>> > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>> >
>> > Vince Hodgson wrote:
>> >>
>> >> 0K, here's the thing....
>> >> doesn't matter what you do, if you are starting to slide and its in
>> >> gear
>> >> and
>> >> your foots off the brake, your tires are still turning, just not
>> >> turning
>> >> fast enough.
>> >>
>> >> therefore, you might as well be slamming on the binders, cause your
>> >> not
>> >> in
>> >> control anymore.
>> >>
>> >> best bet in any situation it to slap it into neutral and use the
>> >> brakes.
>> >> that way the tires keep turning at the right speed and you can start
>> >> to
>> >> regain control with the brake peddle.
>> >>
>> >> just my 0.2 cents. had an ice situation happen in 4wd and did 360's
>> >> down
>> >> a
>> >> hill (no brakes) and I definitely know if I kicked it into neutral or
>> >> pushed in the clutch, i could have regained control again.
>> >> <xyzz4569@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
>> >> news:1142369786.243719.87620@z34g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com...
>> >> > An automatic has plenty of compression braking if in 1st gear and
>> >> > low
>> >> > range 4WD. I realize that a manual has more braking ability, but an
>> >> > automatic still has a LOT.
>> >> >
>> >> > Tom
>> >> >
>> >> > Lee Ayrton wrote:
>> >> > > You can count on one brake locking up before the others, making
>> >> > > control
>> >> > > on a slippery surface more, um, challenging. The OP was doubly
>> >> > > hampered
>> >> > > by his auto tranny that wouldn't hold him back the way a standard
>> >> > > would
>> >> > > have.
>> >> > >
>> >> >

 

> The OP was 'not' trying to stop, he was trying to do a controlled
> decent.

---correct, it was I who offered it up as a suggested way to regain control,
then a few others agreed.

> Putting a 4x4 vehicle into neutral is a last resort when you are 'out of
> control'. You may be able to stop, but you won't have control.

---You usually don't have time to react, but in a slow speed slide because
your wheels don't have traction WILL correct itself if slipped into neutral
and the steering wheel turned toward the slide.

>
> What works 'for me in my Jeep' is just by pure coincidence the 'exact'
> way the Jeep engineers say to hold control in 'both' my CJ7's and my
> XJ's owners manuals. Hmm.....

---again, I think you offered up advice based on what works for you. I have
no problem with that, just don't deter someone from trying something else
when other things didn't work.
>
> What worked in your 2 wheel drive cruiser was right for the cruiser.
> Neutral can save your butt when the proportioning valve won't lock the
> rear drive wheels and they want to push you on through the intersection.

---exactly, and it works the same way in a 4WD vehicle.

>
> As a cop, I 'highly' doubt you were trained in 4x4 control. It is
> 'nothing' like controlling a rear wheel drive cruiser, not even close.
> Even a front wheel drive car reacts different than the rear wheel drive
> cruiser. With the front wheel drive you 'give' it gas to control a
> corner and your steering. In a part time 4x4 system, when you lock the
> front brakes, All 4 wheels lock up and you go sideways faster than you
> can blink. That is why you see a lot of them in the ditch on exit
> ramps. They went to neutral and hit the brakes to slow down because
> they 'heard that works' and zing, there they be in the ditch.

---it doesn't matter to me whether you believe or doubt my training. My
department in 1992 had 18 Crown Victorias, 12 Ford Taurus SHO's, 2 Chevy
Blazers 4WD, 8 Jeep Cherokee's all 4WD, and two Suzuki Samurai's also 4WD.

---in a part time system, all 4 wheels DO NOT lock up unless they are locked
together to start with.

---In the accidents I investigated, numbering in the very high hundreds,
SPEED was the single most cause of those accidents on exit ramps. Not
shifting into neutral, but SPEED. Driving too fast for conditions, merely
because they are in a 4WD, is what causes people to crash SUV's in inclement
weather. Not once in any report did anyone EVER tell me they had shifted
into neutral. By the way, shifting into neutral to stop OR regain control of
a vehicle is not against the law. You do it every time you come to a stop
sign, light, or parking lot, and that's the type of "shift into neutral I'm
talking about.
---
>
> As a cop you also should be aware that coasting downhill in neutral is
> totally illegal for the reason you cannot hold control of the vehicle.
> The suspension unloads and floats and you lose any engine braking
> control.

---Yes, I'm completely aware of the dynamics of driving. We are talking
about a slow, 5 or 6 mph downhill descent, not at highway speed down a
mountain "free for all".
>
> I am serious when I said I take out groups of Jeepers to learn how to
> control their Jeeps in snow and ice. I have done a lot of trips with
> bunches of them posted on the net at alt.binaries.pictures.autos.4x4.

---I don't doubt your ability, or experience with Jeeps at all. I'm sure you
have helped tons of people, you have helped me on a couple of things. I do
think you are closed minded to any ideas other than your own. I also think
you sometimes speak your opinion as fact. I have been in the exact
circumstance the OP talked about, he was basically describing the road up to
my driveway when I lived in the mountains of WV, where I went up and down
twice a day, every day, in the snow from December until mid March.

>
> I have tried the stopping at a mark test many many times and have tried
> all combinations to get stopped. In gear with no brakes until the last
> second still works best.

---Not on slick snow or ice.
>
> I 'highly' recommend folks hit an empty parking lot come first good snow
> and try their 4x4 out. It will amaze and scare them with what can
> happen fast. Be prepared to answer the cop correctly by saying you are
> learning 4x4 when he accuses you of 'stunting' in the parking lot. ;-)

---Agreed, but cops can't write tickets in parking lots as they are private
property. They can, ask you to leave if the owner of the establishment
wishes. That only pertains to NC and the MVC here. I don't know about where
you live.

Spdloader


>
> Mike
>
> Spdloader wrote:
>>
>> I have saved myself from accidents more times than I can count by
>> shifting
>> to neutral, from an automatic or standard transmission.
>>
>> I learned this driving technique when I was trained to be a law
>> enforcement
>> officer twenty years ago, by people trained and qualified to do so, not
>> by
>> someone that thinks what works for him in his Jeep is best for everyone.
>>
>> Shifting to neutral does not automatically make you "out of control" as
>> you
>> put it, but, helps regain control of the vehicle.
>>
>> Accelerating to regain control is not the correct answer if you are
>> trying
>> to STOP the vehicle. You're just making things worse.
>>
>> Try it next time you are on ice or a slick road and pulling up to an
>> intersection, or coming up on a situation where you must stop or turn.
>> Shift
>> into neutral and see for yourself under which circumstances you maintain
>> better control of your vehicle.
>>
>> Spdloader
>>
>> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> news:44174066.7DB08BE4@sympatico.ca...
>> > That happens to us all the time coming down sand pit and ravine walls.
>> > We do these year round.
>> >
>> > Contrary to what might seem right, you have to give it some gas to keep
>> > control. If you drop back on the gas, the tires can/will stall and
>> > break free and it's the same as if you had the brake pedal mashed.
>> >
>> > If you use the gas and gears right, auto or stick, you can keep the
>> > wheels turning enough to hold steering control. That is why I like 3rd
>> > low. It has braking power without too much grab to stall the wheels
>> > and
>> > start a slide. If I am in 2nd, I can stall the wheels if I don't keep
>> > the rpm high, 1st is useless for descending.
>> >
>> > Trying to go too slow can get you into trouble.
>> >
>> > Going into neutral can get you killed besides being illegal in every
>> > state or country I have checked in. In neutral, you are 'out' of
>> > control.
>> >
>> > Mike
>> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>> > Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>> > Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>> > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>> >
>> > Vince Hodgson wrote:
>> >>
>> >> 0K, here's the thing....
>> >> doesn't matter what you do, if you are starting to slide and its in
>> >> gear
>> >> and
>> >> your foots off the brake, your tires are still turning, just not
>> >> turning
>> >> fast enough.
>> >>
>> >> therefore, you might as well be slamming on the binders, cause your
>> >> not
>> >> in
>> >> control anymore.
>> >>
>> >> best bet in any situation it to slap it into neutral and use the
>> >> brakes.
>> >> that way the tires keep turning at the right speed and you can start
>> >> to
>> >> regain control with the brake peddle.
>> >>
>> >> just my 0.2 cents. had an ice situation happen in 4wd and did 360's
>> >> down
>> >> a
>> >> hill (no brakes) and I definitely know if I kicked it into neutral or
>> >> pushed in the clutch, i could have regained control again.
>> >> <xyzz4569@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
>> >> news:1142369786.243719.87620@z34g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com...
>> >> > An automatic has plenty of compression braking if in 1st gear and
>> >> > low
>> >> > range 4WD. I realize that a manual has more braking ability, but an
>> >> > automatic still has a LOT.
>> >> >
>> >> > Tom
>> >> >
>> >> > Lee Ayrton wrote:
>> >> > > You can count on one brake locking up before the others, making
>> >> > > control
>> >> > > on a slippery surface more, um, challenging. The OP was doubly
>> >> > > hampered
>> >> > > by his auto tranny that wouldn't hold him back the way a standard
>> >> > > would
>> >> > > have.
>> >> > >
>> >> >

 

Jeep should offer a course in how to handle your new 4x4. Land Rover
here in Canada does. I have been out with their factory team in my CJ7
showing them around some new challenges in the area we do day trips in.
I even had their newspaper reporter out with us on one clean up trip I
was the liaison on. He blasted the LR drivers for their poor showing.
He said he was on a great clean up trip..... with a bunch of Jeepers!
LOL!

4x4's handle totally different than any other vehicle, especially in
'part time' with the front and rear differentials locked together. The
brakes go insane. It takes learning to get comfortable with that 5-10
mph you need to be moving to hold control. You cannot safely stop on a
icy decent, you just have to be able to control it to the bottom. Most
times it is 'to stop, hit tree or snowbank', otherwise aim good.... ;-)

Rear wheel drives handle a certain way and front wheel drives handle
totally different.

Empty parking lots come first snow is the way to go to learn or a nice
local sand pit area like we used to have.

Mike

Earle Horton wrote:
>
> The state cops on Colorado practice on Georgetown lake after it freezes up.
> It's fun to watch.
>
> Earle
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:44174F1B.C7664F11@sympatico.ca...
> > The OP was 'not' trying to stop, he was trying to do a controlled
> > decent.
> >
> > Putting a 4x4 vehicle into neutral is a last resort when you are 'out of
> > control'. You may be able to stop, but you won't have control.
> >
> > What works 'for me in my Jeep' is just by pure coincidence the 'exact'
> > way the Jeep engineers say to hold control in 'both' my CJ7's and my
> > XJ's owners manuals. Hmm.....
> >
> > What worked in your 2 wheel drive cruiser was right for the cruiser.
> > Neutral can save your butt when the proportioning valve won't lock the
> > rear drive wheels and they want to push you on through the intersection.
> >
> > As a cop, I 'highly' doubt you were trained in 4x4 control. It is
> > 'nothing' like controlling a rear wheel drive cruiser, not even close.
> > Even a front wheel drive car reacts different than the rear wheel drive
> > cruiser. With the front wheel drive you 'give' it gas to control a
> > corner and your steering. In a part time 4x4 system, when you lock the
> > front brakes, All 4 wheels lock up and you go sideways faster than you
> > can blink. That is why you see a lot of them in the ditch on exit
> > ramps. They went to neutral and hit the brakes to slow down because
> > they 'heard that works' and zing, there they be in the ditch.
> >
> > As a cop you also should be aware that coasting downhill in neutral is
> > totally illegal for the reason you cannot hold control of the vehicle.
> > The suspension unloads and floats and you lose any engine braking
> > control.
> >
> > I am serious when I said I take out groups of Jeepers to learn how to
> > control their Jeeps in snow and ice. I have done a lot of trips with
> > bunches of them posted on the net at alt.binaries.pictures.autos.4x4.
> >
> > I have tried the stopping at a mark test many many times and have tried
> > all combinations to get stopped. In gear with no brakes until the last
> > second still works best.
> >
> > I 'highly' recommend folks hit an empty parking lot come first good snow
> > and try their 4x4 out. It will amaze and scare them with what can
> > happen fast. Be prepared to answer the cop correctly by saying you are
> > learning 4x4 when he accuses you of 'stunting' in the parking lot. ;-)
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Spdloader wrote:
> > >
> > > I have saved myself from accidents more times than I can count by
> shifting
> > > to neutral, from an automatic or standard transmission.
> > >
> > > I learned this driving technique when I was trained to be a law
> enforcement
> > > officer twenty years ago, by people trained and qualified to do so, not
> by
> > > someone that thinks what works for him in his Jeep is best for everyone.
> > >
> > > Shifting to neutral does not automatically make you "out of control" as
> you
> > > put it, but, helps regain control of the vehicle.
> > >
> > > Accelerating to regain control is not the correct answer if you are
> trying
> > > to STOP the vehicle. You're just making things worse.
> > >
> > > Try it next time you are on ice or a slick road and pulling up to an
> > > intersection, or coming up on a situation where you must stop or turn.
> Shift
> > > into neutral and see for yourself under which circumstances you maintain
> > > better control of your vehicle.
> > >
> > > Spdloader
> > >
> > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:44174066.7DB08BE4@sympatico.ca...
> > > > That happens to us all the time coming down sand pit and ravine walls.
> > > > We do these year round.
> > > >
> > > > Contrary to what might seem right, you have to give it some gas to
> keep
> > > > control. If you drop back on the gas, the tires can/will stall and
> > > > break free and it's the same as if you had the brake pedal mashed.
> > > >
> > > > If you use the gas and gears right, auto or stick, you can keep the
> > > > wheels turning enough to hold steering control. That is why I like
> 3rd
> > > > low. It has braking power without too much grab to stall the wheels
> and
> > > > start a slide. If I am in 2nd, I can stall the wheels if I don't keep
> > > > the rpm high, 1st is useless for descending.
> > > >
> > > > Trying to go too slow can get you into trouble.
> > > >
> > > > Going into neutral can get you killed besides being illegal in every
> > > > state or country I have checked in. In neutral, you are 'out' of
> > > > control.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> > > > Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> > > > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
> > > >
> > > > Vince Hodgson wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> 0K, here's the thing....
> > > >> doesn't matter what you do, if you are starting to slide and its in
> gear
> > > >> and
> > > >> your foots off the brake, your tires are still turning, just not
> turning
> > > >> fast enough.
> > > >>
> > > >> therefore, you might as well be slamming on the binders, cause your
> not
> > > >> in
> > > >> control anymore.
> > > >>
> > > >> best bet in any situation it to slap it into neutral and use the
> brakes.
> > > >> that way the tires keep turning at the right speed and you can start
> to
> > > >> regain control with the brake peddle.
> > > >>
> > > >> just my 0.2 cents. had an ice situation happen in 4wd and did 360's
> down
> > > >> a
> > > >> hill (no brakes) and I definitely know if I kicked it into neutral
> or
> > > >> pushed in the clutch, i could have regained control again.
> > > >> <xyzz4569@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
> > > >> news:1142369786.243719.87620@z34g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com...
> > > >> > An automatic has plenty of compression braking if in 1st gear and
> low
> > > >> > range 4WD. I realize that a manual has more braking ability, but an
> > > >> > automatic still has a LOT.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Tom
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Lee Ayrton wrote:
> > > >> > > You can count on one brake locking up before the others, making
> > > >> > > control
> > > >> > > on a slippery surface more, um, challenging. The OP was doubly
> > > >> > > hampered
> > > >> > > by his auto tranny that wouldn't hold him back the way a standard
> > > >> > > would
> > > >> > > have.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> >