Re: A case of death wobble today
 

But then as it turns out more often than not, Bill was right.

The guy has an old stabilizer shock and it's installed wrong.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Jerry Newton wrote:
>
> Bill, as a "seasoned" mechanic, I certainly expect that you should know the
> mechanic's creedo: Assume Nothing. I am with Roy on this one.
>
> Jerry
>
> "L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:403690F9.B1DFEBE6@cox.net...
> > Roy, while under there replacing the stabilizer that you know he needs
> > because that's the only way one tire may transfer the shimmy to the the
> > other, you would naturally see anything else that needed replacing, or
> > do you wear a blindfold while work on your car?
> > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> >
> > Roy J wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill: READ MY PREVIOUS WORDS CAREFULLY
> > >
> > > YOU are the one that suggested changing the stabilizer WITHOUT
> > > checking for the underlying causes. In my mind, that is getting
> > > close to advocating an unsafe fix for a dangerous problem.
> > >
> > > Note that I did not say anything about not replacing a worn
> > > stablizier only that advice about a stablizer should also include
> > > advice/warning to check for the root cause.

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

But then as it turns out more often than not, Bill was right.

The guy has an old stabilizer shock and it's installed wrong.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Jerry Newton wrote:
>
> Bill, as a "seasoned" mechanic, I certainly expect that you should know the
> mechanic's creedo: Assume Nothing. I am with Roy on this one.
>
> Jerry
>
> "L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:403690F9.B1DFEBE6@cox.net...
> > Roy, while under there replacing the stabilizer that you know he needs
> > because that's the only way one tire may transfer the shimmy to the the
> > other, you would naturally see anything else that needed replacing, or
> > do you wear a blindfold while work on your car?
> > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> >
> > Roy J wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill: READ MY PREVIOUS WORDS CAREFULLY
> > >
> > > YOU are the one that suggested changing the stabilizer WITHOUT
> > > checking for the underlying causes. In my mind, that is getting
> > > close to advocating an unsafe fix for a dangerous problem.
> > >
> > > Note that I did not say anything about not replacing a worn
> > > stablizier only that advice about a stablizer should also include
> > > advice/warning to check for the root cause.

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

Seems to me it isn't much needed since there isn't much lateral axle
movement anyway on leaf-sprung vehicles. I dumped the one in the back years
ago. The local front-end mechanic (who also owns a 78CJ-5) suggested it
should even ride better without it. We'll see because I plan to leave it
off for now. Thanks.

Terry.


"L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@cox.net> wrote in message
news:403747DB.7731CA52@cox.net...
> Real Jeeps don't have no stinkin' track bar.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Old Crow wrote:
> >
> > You know, if the track bar being worn was the cause of the wobble,
> > removing it wouldn't change anything. If it's already so worn that
> > there's movement there, imagine the movement if it was gone.
> > I know that the track bar is critical to this problem on the TJ and
> > the XJ's with coil spring suspension, but on a leaf spring jeep, even
> > if it's got square headlights, I don't think it's a contributor.
> > There are just too many people with leaf spring setups that have
> > trashed the track bar for more articulation.
> >
> > --
> > Old Crow
> > '82 Shovelhead FLT 92" 'Pearl'
> > '95 Jeep YJ Rio Grande
> > ASE Certified Master Auto Tech + L1
> > TOMKAT, BS#133, SENS, MAMBM, DOF#51

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

Seems to me it isn't much needed since there isn't much lateral axle
movement anyway on leaf-sprung vehicles. I dumped the one in the back years
ago. The local front-end mechanic (who also owns a 78CJ-5) suggested it
should even ride better without it. We'll see because I plan to leave it
off for now. Thanks.

Terry.


"L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@cox.net> wrote in message
news:403747DB.7731CA52@cox.net...
> Real Jeeps don't have no stinkin' track bar.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Old Crow wrote:
> >
> > You know, if the track bar being worn was the cause of the wobble,
> > removing it wouldn't change anything. If it's already so worn that
> > there's movement there, imagine the movement if it was gone.
> > I know that the track bar is critical to this problem on the TJ and
> > the XJ's with coil spring suspension, but on a leaf spring jeep, even
> > if it's got square headlights, I don't think it's a contributor.
> > There are just too many people with leaf spring setups that have
> > trashed the track bar for more articulation.
> >
> > --
> > Old Crow
> > '82 Shovelhead FLT 92" 'Pearl'
> > '95 Jeep YJ Rio Grande
> > ASE Certified Master Auto Tech + L1
> > TOMKAT, BS#133, SENS, MAMBM, DOF#51

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

Seems to me it isn't much needed since there isn't much lateral axle
movement anyway on leaf-sprung vehicles. I dumped the one in the back years
ago. The local front-end mechanic (who also owns a 78CJ-5) suggested it
should even ride better without it. We'll see because I plan to leave it
off for now. Thanks.

Terry.


"L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@cox.net> wrote in message
news:403747DB.7731CA52@cox.net...
> Real Jeeps don't have no stinkin' track bar.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Old Crow wrote:
> >
> > You know, if the track bar being worn was the cause of the wobble,
> > removing it wouldn't change anything. If it's already so worn that
> > there's movement there, imagine the movement if it was gone.
> > I know that the track bar is critical to this problem on the TJ and
> > the XJ's with coil spring suspension, but on a leaf spring jeep, even
> > if it's got square headlights, I don't think it's a contributor.
> > There are just too many people with leaf spring setups that have
> > trashed the track bar for more articulation.
> >
> > --
> > Old Crow
> > '82 Shovelhead FLT 92" 'Pearl'
> > '95 Jeep YJ Rio Grande
> > ASE Certified Master Auto Tech + L1
> > TOMKAT, BS#133, SENS, MAMBM, DOF#51

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

I take your opinion for what it's worth, which was worthless for
the OP!
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Roy J wrote:
><Snipped babble>

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

I take your opinion for what it's worth, which was worthless for
the OP!
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Roy J wrote:
><Snipped babble>

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

I take your opinion for what it's worth, which was worthless for
the OP!
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Roy J wrote:
><Snipped babble>

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer would
be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I
described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been suggested
to correct me?)

If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with looseness,
then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation test. If
yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if the
DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking the
trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings.




"Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else on
the
> front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new and
> tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends, drag
> link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight. I
just
> put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
>
> I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens. I'll
have
> the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if
> needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that same
> damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought. If
she
> passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old
steering
> stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the
drag
> link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod instead
> since it is "closer" to the steering.
>
> Thanks for all the comments and info.
>
> Terry
> 92YJ
>
>
>
> "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for
> > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a
> > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the
> > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to
> > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or
> > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some
> > front end work.
> >
> >
> > I'll second that diagnosis.
> >
> > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW
> > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the
ball
> > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
> >
> > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and it
> > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same direction.
> During
> > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking for
the
> > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where the
> > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then
heads
> > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because it
has
> > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral downward
> from
> > there.
> >
> > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable in a
> > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but the
idea
> > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it positions
the
> > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment as
much
> > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on your
> YJ
> > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other issues.
> Ball
> > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the one
> that
> > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious
> > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the test
> for
> > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the ground
> and
> > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom, and
> 2.)
> > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in
either
> > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel back
> and
> > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in the
tie
> > rod ends.
> >
> > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the tie
> rod
> > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing the
> > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball
joints
> > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts and
the
> > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only
necessary
> > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball
joints
> > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
> >
>
>

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer would
be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I
described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been suggested
to correct me?)

If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with looseness,
then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation test. If
yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if the
DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking the
trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings.




"Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else on
the
> front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new and
> tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends, drag
> link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight. I
just
> put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
>
> I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens. I'll
have
> the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if
> needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that same
> damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought. If
she
> passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old
steering
> stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the
drag
> link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod instead
> since it is "closer" to the steering.
>
> Thanks for all the comments and info.
>
> Terry
> 92YJ
>
>
>
> "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for
> > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a
> > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the
> > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to
> > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or
> > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some
> > front end work.
> >
> >
> > I'll second that diagnosis.
> >
> > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW
> > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the
ball
> > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
> >
> > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and it
> > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same direction.
> During
> > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking for
the
> > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where the
> > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then
heads
> > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because it
has
> > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral downward
> from
> > there.
> >
> > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable in a
> > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but the
idea
> > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it positions
the
> > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment as
much
> > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on your
> YJ
> > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other issues.
> Ball
> > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the one
> that
> > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious
> > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the test
> for
> > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the ground
> and
> > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom, and
> 2.)
> > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in
either
> > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel back
> and
> > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in the
tie
> > rod ends.
> >
> > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the tie
> rod
> > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing the
> > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball
joints
> > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts and
the
> > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only
necessary
> > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball
joints
> > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
> >
>
>