Re: A case of death wobble today
 

I am not saying it is not needed, clearly it is. But, I am saying that if
all other parts are in excellent shape, a weak stabalizer ought not be so
dramatic.

Having said that, I am ignoring whatever kind of tires he might be running,
and if they are large, and heavy, then the steering stabalizer will come
into play sooner than I am suggesting.

I just get the overpowering impression that he has some other problem that
even a good steering stabalizer will not be able to mask for very long. How
I get so much power from my keyboard and monitor is a mystery to me.

And, I don't hate you ... You don't use you Jeep right, but I don't hate you
.... ;-)





"L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@cox.net> wrote in message
news:4037E9B9.82752C6F@cox.net...
> Jeff, your hatred towards me is getting in the way of your thought
> process. Why else would you find a steering stabilizer on all new 4X4s?
> The WJ: http://www.----------.com/JWStabalizer.jpg
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:--------------------
>
> CRWLR wrote:
> >
> > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer
would
> > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I
> > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been
suggested
> > to correct me?)
> >
> > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with
looseness,
> > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation
test. If
> > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if
the
> > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking
the
> > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings.

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

I am not saying it is not needed, clearly it is. But, I am saying that if
all other parts are in excellent shape, a weak stabalizer ought not be so
dramatic.

Having said that, I am ignoring whatever kind of tires he might be running,
and if they are large, and heavy, then the steering stabalizer will come
into play sooner than I am suggesting.

I just get the overpowering impression that he has some other problem that
even a good steering stabalizer will not be able to mask for very long. How
I get so much power from my keyboard and monitor is a mystery to me.

And, I don't hate you ... You don't use you Jeep right, but I don't hate you
.... ;-)





"L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@cox.net> wrote in message
news:4037E9B9.82752C6F@cox.net...
> Jeff, your hatred towards me is getting in the way of your thought
> process. Why else would you find a steering stabilizer on all new 4X4s?
> The WJ: http://www.----------.com/JWStabalizer.jpg
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:--------------------
>
> CRWLR wrote:
> >
> > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer
would
> > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I
> > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been
suggested
> > to correct me?)
> >
> > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with
looseness,
> > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation
test. If
> > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if
the
> > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking
the
> > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings.

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

I am not saying it is not needed, clearly it is. But, I am saying that if
all other parts are in excellent shape, a weak stabalizer ought not be so
dramatic.

Having said that, I am ignoring whatever kind of tires he might be running,
and if they are large, and heavy, then the steering stabalizer will come
into play sooner than I am suggesting.

I just get the overpowering impression that he has some other problem that
even a good steering stabalizer will not be able to mask for very long. How
I get so much power from my keyboard and monitor is a mystery to me.

And, I don't hate you ... You don't use you Jeep right, but I don't hate you
.... ;-)





"L.W. (ßill) ------ III" <----------@cox.net> wrote in message
news:4037E9B9.82752C6F@cox.net...
> Jeff, your hatred towards me is getting in the way of your thought
> process. Why else would you find a steering stabilizer on all new 4X4s?
> The WJ: http://www.----------.com/JWStabalizer.jpg
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:--------------------
>
> CRWLR wrote:
> >
> > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer
would
> > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I
> > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been
suggested
> > to correct me?)
> >
> > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with
looseness,
> > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation
test. If
> > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if
the
> > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking
the
> > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings.

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly.

The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed.
He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in
the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

CRWLR wrote:
>
> Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes straighat
> ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can turn on
> a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant difference in
> these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the
> Caster angle.
>
> As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the
> adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set during
> manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle.
> Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of
> course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change
> enough to become a player in DW.
>
> Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball joints,
> and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be
> about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint
> should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit
> different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than lesser
> angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will search
> for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There is
> an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn, or a
> manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking stall.
> Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if the
> wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and
> requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive it back
> to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants to
> go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
>
> In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so the
> analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works pretty
> well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for now.
>
> My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
>
> "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire test
> and
> > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get the
> > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would be a
> > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off,
> > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other?
> >
> > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to the
> > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt a
> > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and
> will
> > replace it as soon as I can find one.
> >
> > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all together
> > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. But
> > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again.
> >
> > Thanks again,
> > Terry.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer
> > would
> > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I
> > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been
> > suggested
> > > to correct me?)
> > >
> > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with
> > looseness,
> > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation
> test.
> > If
> > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if
> > the
> > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking
> the
> > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else
> on
> > > the
> > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new
> > and
> > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends,
> drag
> > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight.
> I
> > > just
> > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> > > >
> > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens.
> I'll
> > > have
> > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if
> > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that
> > same
> > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought.
> If
> > > she
> > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old
> > > steering
> > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the
> > > drag
> > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod
> > instead
> > > > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> > > >
> > > > Terry
> > > > 92YJ
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for
> > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a
> > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the
> > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to
> > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or
> > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some
> > > > > front end work.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW
> > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the
> > > ball
> > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
> > > > >
> > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and
> > it
> > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same
> direction.
> > > > During
> > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking
> for
> > > the
> > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where
> > the
> > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then
> > > heads
> > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because
> it
> > > has
> > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral
> > downward
> > > > from
> > > > > there.
> > > > >
> > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable
> in
> > a
> > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but
> the
> > > idea
> > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it
> positions
> > > the
> > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment
> as
> > > much
> > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on
> > your
> > > > YJ
> > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other
> > issues.
> > > > Ball
> > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the
> one
> > > > that
> > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious
> > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the
> > test
> > > > for
> > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the
> > ground
> > > > and
> > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom,
> > and
> > > > 2.)
> > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in
> > > either
> > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel
> > back
> > > > and
> > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in
> the
> > > tie
> > > > > rod ends.
> > > > >
> > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the
> > tie
> > > > rod
> > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing
> the
> > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball
> > > joints
> > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts
> and
> > > the
> > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only
> > > necessary
> > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball
> > > joints
> > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly.

The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed.
He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in
the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

CRWLR wrote:
>
> Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes straighat
> ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can turn on
> a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant difference in
> these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the
> Caster angle.
>
> As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the
> adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set during
> manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle.
> Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of
> course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change
> enough to become a player in DW.
>
> Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball joints,
> and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be
> about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint
> should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit
> different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than lesser
> angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will search
> for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There is
> an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn, or a
> manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking stall.
> Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if the
> wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and
> requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive it back
> to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants to
> go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
>
> In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so the
> analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works pretty
> well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for now.
>
> My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
>
> "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire test
> and
> > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get the
> > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would be a
> > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off,
> > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other?
> >
> > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to the
> > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt a
> > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and
> will
> > replace it as soon as I can find one.
> >
> > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all together
> > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. But
> > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again.
> >
> > Thanks again,
> > Terry.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer
> > would
> > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I
> > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been
> > suggested
> > > to correct me?)
> > >
> > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with
> > looseness,
> > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation
> test.
> > If
> > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if
> > the
> > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking
> the
> > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else
> on
> > > the
> > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new
> > and
> > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends,
> drag
> > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight.
> I
> > > just
> > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> > > >
> > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens.
> I'll
> > > have
> > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if
> > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that
> > same
> > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought.
> If
> > > she
> > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old
> > > steering
> > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the
> > > drag
> > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod
> > instead
> > > > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> > > >
> > > > Terry
> > > > 92YJ
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for
> > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a
> > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the
> > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to
> > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or
> > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some
> > > > > front end work.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW
> > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the
> > > ball
> > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
> > > > >
> > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and
> > it
> > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same
> direction.
> > > > During
> > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking
> for
> > > the
> > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where
> > the
> > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then
> > > heads
> > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because
> it
> > > has
> > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral
> > downward
> > > > from
> > > > > there.
> > > > >
> > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable
> in
> > a
> > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but
> the
> > > idea
> > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it
> positions
> > > the
> > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment
> as
> > > much
> > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on
> > your
> > > > YJ
> > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other
> > issues.
> > > > Ball
> > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the
> one
> > > > that
> > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious
> > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the
> > test
> > > > for
> > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the
> > ground
> > > > and
> > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom,
> > and
> > > > 2.)
> > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in
> > > either
> > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel
> > back
> > > > and
> > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in
> the
> > > tie
> > > > > rod ends.
> > > > >
> > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the
> > tie
> > > > rod
> > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing
> the
> > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball
> > > joints
> > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts
> and
> > > the
> > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only
> > > necessary
> > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball
> > > joints
> > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly.

The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed.
He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in
the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

CRWLR wrote:
>
> Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes straighat
> ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can turn on
> a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant difference in
> these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the
> Caster angle.
>
> As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the
> adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set during
> manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle.
> Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of
> course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change
> enough to become a player in DW.
>
> Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball joints,
> and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be
> about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint
> should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit
> different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than lesser
> angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will search
> for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There is
> an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn, or a
> manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking stall.
> Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if the
> wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and
> requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive it back
> to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants to
> go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
>
> In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so the
> analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works pretty
> well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for now.
>
> My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
>
> "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire test
> and
> > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get the
> > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would be a
> > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off,
> > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other?
> >
> > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to the
> > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt a
> > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and
> will
> > replace it as soon as I can find one.
> >
> > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all together
> > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. But
> > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again.
> >
> > Thanks again,
> > Terry.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer
> > would
> > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I
> > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been
> > suggested
> > > to correct me?)
> > >
> > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with
> > looseness,
> > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation
> test.
> > If
> > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if
> > the
> > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking
> the
> > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else
> on
> > > the
> > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new
> > and
> > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends,
> drag
> > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight.
> I
> > > just
> > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> > > >
> > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens.
> I'll
> > > have
> > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if
> > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that
> > same
> > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought.
> If
> > > she
> > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old
> > > steering
> > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the
> > > drag
> > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod
> > instead
> > > > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> > > >
> > > > Terry
> > > > 92YJ
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for
> > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a
> > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the
> > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to
> > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or
> > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some
> > > > > front end work.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW
> > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the
> > > ball
> > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
> > > > >
> > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and
> > it
> > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same
> direction.
> > > > During
> > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking
> for
> > > the
> > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where
> > the
> > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then
> > > heads
> > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because
> it
> > > has
> > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral
> > downward
> > > > from
> > > > > there.
> > > > >
> > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable
> in
> > a
> > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but
> the
> > > idea
> > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it
> positions
> > > the
> > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment
> as
> > > much
> > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on
> > your
> > > > YJ
> > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other
> > issues.
> > > > Ball
> > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the
> one
> > > > that
> > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious
> > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the
> > test
> > > > for
> > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the
> > ground
> > > > and
> > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom,
> > and
> > > > 2.)
> > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in
> > > either
> > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel
> > back
> > > > and
> > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in
> the
> > > tie
> > > > > rod ends.
> > > > >
> > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the
> > tie
> > > > rod
> > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing
> the
> > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball
> > > joints
> > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts
> and
> > > the
> > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only
> > > necessary
> > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball
> > > joints
> > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by Dynatrac.
Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is alright,
but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people who have
placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have it. The
reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up front with
the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the track
bar. The track bar is going back on today.

If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it. I've
been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when it comes
to my rig.

Regards,
Terry.


"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca...
> He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly.
>
> The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed.
> He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in
> the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> CRWLR wrote:
> >
> > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes
straighat
> > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can
turn on
> > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant
difference in
> > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the
> > Caster angle.
> >
> > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the
> > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set
during
> > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle.
> > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of
> > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change
> > enough to become a player in DW.
> >
> > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball
joints,
> > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be
> > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint
> > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit
> > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than
lesser
> > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will
search
> > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There
is
> > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn,
or a
> > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking
stall.
> > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if
the
> > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and
> > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive it
back
> > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants
to
> > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
> >
> > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so
the
> > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works
pretty
> > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for
now.
> >
> > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
> >
> > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire
test
> > and
> > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get
the
> > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would
be a
> > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off,
> > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other?
> > >
> > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to
the
> > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt
a
> > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and
> > will
> > > replace it as soon as I can find one.
> > >
> > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all
together
> > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60.
But
> > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again.
> > >
> > > Thanks again,
> > > Terry.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering
stabalizer
> > > would
> > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I
> > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been
> > > suggested
> > > > to correct me?)
> > > >
> > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with
> > > looseness,
> > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation
> > test.
> > > If
> > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see
if
> > > the
> > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test.
Taking
> > the
> > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn
bushings.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything
else
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is
new
> > > and
> > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod &
ends,
> > drag
> > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and
tight.
> > I
> > > > just
> > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens.
> > I'll
> > > > have
> > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it
up if
> > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in
that
> > > same
> > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first
thought.
> > If
> > > > she
> > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old
> > > > steering
> > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to
the
> > > > drag
> > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod
> > > instead
> > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> > > > >
> > > > > Terry
> > > > > 92YJ
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for
> > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a
> > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the
> > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to
> > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or
> > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some
> > > > > > front end work.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no
DW
> > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect
the
> > > > ball
> > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead,
and
> > > it
> > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same
> > direction.
> > > > > During
> > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts
looking
> > for
> > > > the
> > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to
where
> > > the
> > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire
then
> > > > heads
> > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore
because
> > it
> > > > has
> > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral
> > > downward
> > > > > from
> > > > > > there.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not
adjustable
> > in
> > > a
> > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims,
but
> > the
> > > > idea
> > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it
> > positions
> > > > the
> > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require
adjustment
> > as
> > > > much
> > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle
on
> > > your
> > > > > YJ
> > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other
> > > issues.
> > > > > Ball
> > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is
the
> > one
> > > > > that
> > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give
serious
> > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes
the
> > > test
> > > > > for
> > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off
the
> > > ground
> > > > > and
> > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the
bottom,
> > > and
> > > > > 2.)
> > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move
in
> > > > either
> > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering
wheel
> > > back
> > > > > and
> > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play
in
> > the
> > > > tie
> > > > > > rod ends.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of
the
> > > tie
> > > > > rod
> > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with
replacing
> > the
> > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the
ball
> > > > joints
> > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all
like-parts
> > and
> > > > the
> > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only
> > > > necessary
> > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper
ball
> > > > joints
> > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by Dynatrac.
Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is alright,
but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people who have
placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have it. The
reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up front with
the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the track
bar. The track bar is going back on today.

If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it. I've
been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when it comes
to my rig.

Regards,
Terry.


"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca...
> He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly.
>
> The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed.
> He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in
> the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> CRWLR wrote:
> >
> > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes
straighat
> > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can
turn on
> > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant
difference in
> > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the
> > Caster angle.
> >
> > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the
> > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set
during
> > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle.
> > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of
> > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change
> > enough to become a player in DW.
> >
> > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball
joints,
> > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be
> > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint
> > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit
> > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than
lesser
> > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will
search
> > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There
is
> > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn,
or a
> > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking
stall.
> > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if
the
> > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and
> > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive it
back
> > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants
to
> > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
> >
> > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so
the
> > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works
pretty
> > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for
now.
> >
> > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
> >
> > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire
test
> > and
> > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get
the
> > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would
be a
> > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off,
> > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other?
> > >
> > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to
the
> > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt
a
> > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and
> > will
> > > replace it as soon as I can find one.
> > >
> > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all
together
> > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60.
But
> > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again.
> > >
> > > Thanks again,
> > > Terry.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering
stabalizer
> > > would
> > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I
> > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been
> > > suggested
> > > > to correct me?)
> > > >
> > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with
> > > looseness,
> > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation
> > test.
> > > If
> > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see
if
> > > the
> > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test.
Taking
> > the
> > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn
bushings.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything
else
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is
new
> > > and
> > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod &
ends,
> > drag
> > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and
tight.
> > I
> > > > just
> > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens.
> > I'll
> > > > have
> > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it
up if
> > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in
that
> > > same
> > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first
thought.
> > If
> > > > she
> > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old
> > > > steering
> > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to
the
> > > > drag
> > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod
> > > instead
> > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> > > > >
> > > > > Terry
> > > > > 92YJ
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for
> > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a
> > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the
> > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to
> > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or
> > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some
> > > > > > front end work.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no
DW
> > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect
the
> > > > ball
> > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead,
and
> > > it
> > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same
> > direction.
> > > > > During
> > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts
looking
> > for
> > > > the
> > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to
where
> > > the
> > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire
then
> > > > heads
> > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore
because
> > it
> > > > has
> > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral
> > > downward
> > > > > from
> > > > > > there.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not
adjustable
> > in
> > > a
> > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims,
but
> > the
> > > > idea
> > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it
> > positions
> > > > the
> > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require
adjustment
> > as
> > > > much
> > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle
on
> > > your
> > > > > YJ
> > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other
> > > issues.
> > > > > Ball
> > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is
the
> > one
> > > > > that
> > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give
serious
> > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes
the
> > > test
> > > > > for
> > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off
the
> > > ground
> > > > > and
> > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the
bottom,
> > > and
> > > > > 2.)
> > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move
in
> > > > either
> > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering
wheel
> > > back
> > > > > and
> > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play
in
> > the
> > > > tie
> > > > > > rod ends.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of
the
> > > tie
> > > > > rod
> > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with
replacing
> > the
> > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the
ball
> > > > joints
> > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all
like-parts
> > and
> > > > the
> > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only
> > > > necessary
> > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper
ball
> > > > joints
> > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by Dynatrac.
Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is alright,
but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people who have
placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have it. The
reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up front with
the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the track
bar. The track bar is going back on today.

If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it. I've
been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when it comes
to my rig.

Regards,
Terry.


"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca...
> He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly.
>
> The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed.
> He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in
> the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> CRWLR wrote:
> >
> > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes
straighat
> > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can
turn on
> > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant
difference in
> > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the
> > Caster angle.
> >
> > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the
> > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set
during
> > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle.
> > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of
> > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change
> > enough to become a player in DW.
> >
> > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball
joints,
> > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be
> > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint
> > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit
> > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than
lesser
> > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will
search
> > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There
is
> > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn,
or a
> > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking
stall.
> > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if
the
> > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and
> > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive it
back
> > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants
to
> > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
> >
> > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so
the
> > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works
pretty
> > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for
now.
> >
> > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
> >
> > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire
test
> > and
> > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get
the
> > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would
be a
> > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off,
> > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other?
> > >
> > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to
the
> > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt
a
> > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and
> > will
> > > replace it as soon as I can find one.
> > >
> > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all
together
> > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60.
But
> > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again.
> > >
> > > Thanks again,
> > > Terry.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering
stabalizer
> > > would
> > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I
> > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been
> > > suggested
> > > > to correct me?)
> > > >
> > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with
> > > looseness,
> > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation
> > test.
> > > If
> > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see
if
> > > the
> > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test.
Taking
> > the
> > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn
bushings.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything
else
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is
new
> > > and
> > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod &
ends,
> > drag
> > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and
tight.
> > I
> > > > just
> > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens.
> > I'll
> > > > have
> > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it
up if
> > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in
that
> > > same
> > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first
thought.
> > If
> > > > she
> > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old
> > > > steering
> > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to
the
> > > > drag
> > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod
> > > instead
> > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> > > > >
> > > > > Terry
> > > > > 92YJ
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for
> > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a
> > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the
> > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to
> > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or
> > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some
> > > > > > front end work.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no
DW
> > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect
the
> > > > ball
> > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead,
and
> > > it
> > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same
> > direction.
> > > > > During
> > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts
looking
> > for
> > > > the
> > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to
where
> > > the
> > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire
then
> > > > heads
> > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore
because
> > it
> > > > has
> > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral
> > > downward
> > > > > from
> > > > > > there.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not
adjustable
> > in
> > > a
> > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims,
but
> > the
> > > > idea
> > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it
> > positions
> > > > the
> > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require
adjustment
> > as
> > > > much
> > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle
on
> > > your
> > > > > YJ
> > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other
> > > issues.
> > > > > Ball
> > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is
the
> > one
> > > > > that
> > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give
serious
> > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes
the
> > > test
> > > > > for
> > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off
the
> > > ground
> > > > > and
> > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the
bottom,
> > > and
> > > > > 2.)
> > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move
in
> > > > either
> > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering
wheel
> > > back
> > > > > and
> > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play
in
> > the
> > > > tie
> > > > > > rod ends.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of
the
> > > tie
> > > > > rod
> > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with
replacing
> > the
> > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the
ball
> > > > joints
> > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all
like-parts
> > and
> > > > the
> > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only
> > > > necessary
> > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper
ball
> > > > joints
> > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

When I see one thing wrong on a 'professionally' or backyard built item,
that implies the rest is shaky at best.

Death wobble doesn't just happen!

Something is either broken or not built correctly.

You say nothing is broken, then that only leaves me with one other
conclusion, it is built wrong.

I mean really. That is far more than just a 'guess'.

Mike

Terry Jeffrey wrote:
>
> No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by Dynatrac.
> Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is alright,
> but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people who have
> placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have it. The
> reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up front with
> the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the track
> bar. The track bar is going back on today.
>
> If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it. I've
> been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when it comes
> to my rig.
>
> Regards,
> Terry.
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca...
> > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly.
> >
> > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed.
> > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in
> > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> >
> > CRWLR wrote:
> > >
> > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes
> straighat
> > > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can
> turn on
> > > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant
> difference in
> > > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the
> > > Caster angle.
> > >
> > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the
> > > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set
> during
> > > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle.
> > > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of
> > > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change
> > > enough to become a player in DW.
> > >
> > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball
> joints,
> > > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be
> > > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint
> > > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit
> > > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than
> lesser
> > > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will
> search
> > > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There
> is
> > > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn,
> or a
> > > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking
> stall.
> > > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if
> the
> > > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and
> > > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive it
> back
> > > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants
> to
> > > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
> > >
> > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so
> the
> > > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works
> pretty
> > > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for
> now.
> > >
> > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
> > >
> > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire
> test
> > > and
> > > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get
> the
> > > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would
> be a
> > > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off,
> > > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other?
> > > >
> > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to
> the
> > > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt
> a
> > > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and
> > > will
> > > > replace it as soon as I can find one.
> > > >
> > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all
> together
> > > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60.
> But
> > > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks again,
> > > > Terry.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering
> stabalizer
> > > > would
> > > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I
> > > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been
> > > > suggested
> > > > > to correct me?)
> > > > >
> > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with
> > > > looseness,
> > > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation
> > > test.
> > > > If
> > > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see
> if
> > > > the
> > > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test.
> Taking
> > > the
> > > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn
> bushings.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything
> else
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is
> new
> > > > and
> > > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod &
> ends,
> > > drag
> > > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and
> tight.
> > > I
> > > > > just
> > > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens.
> > > I'll
> > > > > have
> > > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it
> up if
> > > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in
> that
> > > > same
> > > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first
> thought.
> > > If
> > > > > she
> > > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old
> > > > > steering
> > > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to
> the
> > > > > drag
> > > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod
> > > > instead
> > > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Terry
> > > > > > 92YJ
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for
> > > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a
> > > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the
> > > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to
> > > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or
> > > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some
> > > > > > > front end work.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no
> DW
> > > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect
> the
> > > > > ball
> > > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead,
> and
> > > > it
> > > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same
> > > direction.
> > > > > > During
> > > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts
> looking
> > > for
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to
> where
> > > > the
> > > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire
> then
> > > > > heads
> > > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore
> because
> > > it
> > > > > has
> > > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral
> > > > downward
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > there.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not
> adjustable
> > > in
> > > > a
> > > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims,
> but
> > > the
> > > > > idea
> > > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it
> > > positions
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require
> adjustment
> > > as
> > > > > much
> > > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle
> on
> > > > your
> > > > > > YJ
> > > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other
> > > > issues.
> > > > > > Ball
> > > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is
> the
> > > one
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give
> serious
> > > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes
> the
> > > > test
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off
> the
> > > > ground
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the
> bottom,
> > > > and
> > > > > > 2.)
> > > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move
> in
> > > > > either
> > > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering
> wheel
> > > > back
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play
> in
> > > the
> > > > > tie
> > > > > > > rod ends.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of
> the
> > > > tie
> > > > > > rod
> > > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with
> replacing
> > > the
> > > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the
> ball
> > > > > joints
> > > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all
> like-parts
> > > and
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only
> > > > > necessary
> > > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper
> ball
> > > > > joints
> > > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >