Re: A case of death wobble today
 

If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer would
be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I
described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been suggested
to correct me?)

If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with looseness,
then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation test. If
yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if the
DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking the
trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings.




"Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else on
the
> front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new and
> tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends, drag
> link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight. I
just
> put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
>
> I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens. I'll
have
> the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if
> needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that same
> damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought. If
she
> passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old
steering
> stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the
drag
> link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod instead
> since it is "closer" to the steering.
>
> Thanks for all the comments and info.
>
> Terry
> 92YJ
>
>
>
> "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for
> > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a
> > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the
> > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to
> > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or
> > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some
> > front end work.
> >
> >
> > I'll second that diagnosis.
> >
> > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW
> > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the
ball
> > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
> >
> > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and it
> > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same direction.
> During
> > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking for
the
> > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where the
> > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then
heads
> > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because it
has
> > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral downward
> from
> > there.
> >
> > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable in a
> > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but the
idea
> > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it positions
the
> > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment as
much
> > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on your
> YJ
> > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other issues.
> Ball
> > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the one
> that
> > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious
> > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the test
> for
> > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the ground
> and
> > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom, and
> 2.)
> > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in
either
> > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel back
> and
> > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in the
tie
> > rod ends.
> >
> > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the tie
> rod
> > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing the
> > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball
joints
> > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts and
the
> > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only
necessary
> > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball
joints
> > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
> >
>
>

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

Jeff, your hatred towards me is getting in the way of your thought
process. Why else would you find a steering stabilizer on all new 4X4s?
The WJ: http://www.----------.com/JWStabalizer.jpg
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:--------------------

CRWLR wrote:
>
> If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer would
> be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I
> described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been suggested
> to correct me?)
>
> If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with looseness,
> then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation test. If
> yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if the
> DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking the
> trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings.

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

Jeff, your hatred towards me is getting in the way of your thought
process. Why else would you find a steering stabilizer on all new 4X4s?
The WJ: http://www.----------.com/JWStabalizer.jpg
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:--------------------

CRWLR wrote:
>
> If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer would
> be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I
> described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been suggested
> to correct me?)
>
> If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with looseness,
> then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation test. If
> yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if the
> DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking the
> trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings.

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

Jeff, your hatred towards me is getting in the way of your thought
process. Why else would you find a steering stabilizer on all new 4X4s?
The WJ: http://www.----------.com/JWStabalizer.jpg
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:--------------------

CRWLR wrote:
>
> If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer would
> be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I
> described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been suggested
> to correct me?)
>
> If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with looseness,
> then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation test. If
> yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if the
> DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking the
> trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings.

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire test and
it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get the
caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would be a
player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off,
wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other?

It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to the
tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt a
little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and will
replace it as soon as I can find one.

Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all together
because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. But
will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again.

Thanks again,
Terry.




"CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer
would
> be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I
> described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been
suggested
> to correct me?)
>
> If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with
looseness,
> then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation test.
If
> yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if
the
> DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking the
> trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings.
>
>
>
>
> "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else on
> the
> > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new
and
> > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends, drag
> > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight. I
> just
> > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> >
> > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens. I'll
> have
> > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if
> > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that
same
> > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought. If
> she
> > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old
> steering
> > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the
> drag
> > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod
instead
> > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> >
> > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> >
> > Terry
> > 92YJ
> >
> >
> >
> > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > >
> > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for
> > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a
> > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the
> > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to
> > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or
> > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some
> > > front end work.
> > >
> > >
> > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > >
> > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW
> > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the
> ball
> > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
> > >
> > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and
it
> > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same direction.
> > During
> > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking for
> the
> > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where
the
> > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then
> heads
> > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because it
> has
> > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral
downward
> > from
> > > there.
> > >
> > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable in
a
> > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but the
> idea
> > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it positions
> the
> > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment as
> much
> > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on
your
> > YJ
> > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other
issues.
> > Ball
> > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the one
> > that
> > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious
> > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the
test
> > for
> > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the
ground
> > and
> > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom,
and
> > 2.)
> > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in
> either
> > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel
back
> > and
> > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in the
> tie
> > > rod ends.
> > >
> > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the
tie
> > rod
> > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing the
> > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball
> joints
> > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts and
> the
> > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only
> necessary
> > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball
> joints
> > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire test and
it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get the
caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would be a
player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off,
wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other?

It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to the
tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt a
little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and will
replace it as soon as I can find one.

Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all together
because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. But
will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again.

Thanks again,
Terry.




"CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer
would
> be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I
> described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been
suggested
> to correct me?)
>
> If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with
looseness,
> then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation test.
If
> yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if
the
> DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking the
> trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings.
>
>
>
>
> "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else on
> the
> > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new
and
> > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends, drag
> > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight. I
> just
> > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> >
> > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens. I'll
> have
> > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if
> > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that
same
> > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought. If
> she
> > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old
> steering
> > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the
> drag
> > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod
instead
> > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> >
> > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> >
> > Terry
> > 92YJ
> >
> >
> >
> > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > >
> > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for
> > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a
> > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the
> > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to
> > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or
> > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some
> > > front end work.
> > >
> > >
> > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > >
> > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW
> > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the
> ball
> > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
> > >
> > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and
it
> > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same direction.
> > During
> > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking for
> the
> > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where
the
> > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then
> heads
> > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because it
> has
> > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral
downward
> > from
> > > there.
> > >
> > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable in
a
> > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but the
> idea
> > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it positions
> the
> > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment as
> much
> > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on
your
> > YJ
> > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other
issues.
> > Ball
> > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the one
> > that
> > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious
> > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the
test
> > for
> > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the
ground
> > and
> > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom,
and
> > 2.)
> > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in
> either
> > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel
back
> > and
> > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in the
> tie
> > > rod ends.
> > >
> > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the
tie
> > rod
> > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing the
> > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball
> joints
> > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts and
> the
> > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only
> necessary
> > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball
> joints
> > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire test and
it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get the
caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would be a
player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off,
wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other?

It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to the
tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt a
little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and will
replace it as soon as I can find one.

Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all together
because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. But
will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again.

Thanks again,
Terry.




"CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer
would
> be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I
> described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been
suggested
> to correct me?)
>
> If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with
looseness,
> then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation test.
If
> yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if
the
> DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking the
> trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings.
>
>
>
>
> "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else on
> the
> > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new
and
> > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends, drag
> > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight. I
> just
> > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> >
> > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens. I'll
> have
> > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if
> > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that
same
> > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought. If
> she
> > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old
> steering
> > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the
> drag
> > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod
instead
> > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> >
> > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> >
> > Terry
> > 92YJ
> >
> >
> >
> > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > >
> > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for
> > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a
> > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the
> > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to
> > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or
> > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some
> > > front end work.
> > >
> > >
> > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > >
> > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW
> > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the
> ball
> > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
> > >
> > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and
it
> > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same direction.
> > During
> > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking for
> the
> > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where
the
> > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then
> heads
> > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because it
> has
> > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral
downward
> > from
> > > there.
> > >
> > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable in
a
> > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but the
> idea
> > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it positions
> the
> > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment as
> much
> > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on
your
> > YJ
> > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other
issues.
> > Ball
> > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the one
> > that
> > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious
> > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the
test
> > for
> > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the
ground
> > and
> > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom,
and
> > 2.)
> > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in
> either
> > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel
back
> > and
> > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in the
> tie
> > > rod ends.
> > >
> > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the
tie
> > rod
> > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing the
> > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball
> joints
> > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts and
> the
> > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only
> necessary
> > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball
> joints
> > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes straighat
ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can turn on
a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant difference in
these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the
Caster angle.

As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the
adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set during
manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle.
Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of
course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change
enough to become a player in DW.

Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball joints,
and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be
about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint
should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit
different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than lesser
angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will search
for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There is
an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn, or a
manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking stall.
Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if the
wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and
requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive it back
to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants to
go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.

In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so the
analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works pretty
well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for now.

My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.





"Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire test
and
> it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get the
> caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would be a
> player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off,
> wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other?
>
> It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to the
> tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt a
> little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and
will
> replace it as soon as I can find one.
>
> Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all together
> because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. But
> will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again.
>
> Thanks again,
> Terry.
>
>
>
>
> "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer
> would
> > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I
> > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been
> suggested
> > to correct me?)
> >
> > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with
> looseness,
> > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation
test.
> If
> > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if
> the
> > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking
the
> > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else
on
> > the
> > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new
> and
> > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends,
drag
> > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight.
I
> > just
> > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> > >
> > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens.
I'll
> > have
> > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if
> > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that
> same
> > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought.
If
> > she
> > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old
> > steering
> > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the
> > drag
> > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod
> instead
> > > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> > >
> > > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> > >
> > > Terry
> > > 92YJ
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > > >
> > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for
> > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a
> > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the
> > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to
> > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or
> > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some
> > > > front end work.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > > >
> > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW
> > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the
> > ball
> > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
> > > >
> > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and
> it
> > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same
direction.
> > > During
> > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking
for
> > the
> > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where
> the
> > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then
> > heads
> > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because
it
> > has
> > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral
> downward
> > > from
> > > > there.
> > > >
> > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable
in
> a
> > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but
the
> > idea
> > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it
positions
> > the
> > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment
as
> > much
> > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on
> your
> > > YJ
> > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other
> issues.
> > > Ball
> > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the
one
> > > that
> > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious
> > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the
> test
> > > for
> > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the
> ground
> > > and
> > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom,
> and
> > > 2.)
> > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in
> > either
> > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel
> back
> > > and
> > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in
the
> > tie
> > > > rod ends.
> > > >
> > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the
> tie
> > > rod
> > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing
the
> > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball
> > joints
> > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts
and
> > the
> > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only
> > necessary
> > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball
> > joints
> > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes straighat
ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can turn on
a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant difference in
these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the
Caster angle.

As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the
adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set during
manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle.
Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of
course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change
enough to become a player in DW.

Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball joints,
and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be
about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint
should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit
different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than lesser
angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will search
for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There is
an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn, or a
manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking stall.
Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if the
wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and
requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive it back
to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants to
go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.

In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so the
analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works pretty
well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for now.

My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.





"Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire test
and
> it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get the
> caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would be a
> player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off,
> wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other?
>
> It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to the
> tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt a
> little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and
will
> replace it as soon as I can find one.
>
> Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all together
> because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. But
> will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again.
>
> Thanks again,
> Terry.
>
>
>
>
> "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer
> would
> > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I
> > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been
> suggested
> > to correct me?)
> >
> > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with
> looseness,
> > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation
test.
> If
> > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if
> the
> > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking
the
> > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else
on
> > the
> > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new
> and
> > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends,
drag
> > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight.
I
> > just
> > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> > >
> > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens.
I'll
> > have
> > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if
> > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that
> same
> > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought.
If
> > she
> > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old
> > steering
> > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the
> > drag
> > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod
> instead
> > > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> > >
> > > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> > >
> > > Terry
> > > 92YJ
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > > >
> > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for
> > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a
> > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the
> > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to
> > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or
> > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some
> > > > front end work.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > > >
> > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW
> > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the
> > ball
> > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
> > > >
> > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and
> it
> > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same
direction.
> > > During
> > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking
for
> > the
> > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where
> the
> > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then
> > heads
> > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because
it
> > has
> > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral
> downward
> > > from
> > > > there.
> > > >
> > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable
in
> a
> > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but
the
> > idea
> > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it
positions
> > the
> > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment
as
> > much
> > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on
> your
> > > YJ
> > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other
> issues.
> > > Ball
> > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the
one
> > > that
> > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious
> > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the
> test
> > > for
> > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the
> ground
> > > and
> > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom,
> and
> > > 2.)
> > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in
> > either
> > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel
> back
> > > and
> > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in
the
> > tie
> > > > rod ends.
> > > >
> > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the
> tie
> > > rod
> > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing
the
> > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball
> > joints
> > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts
and
> > the
> > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only
> > necessary
> > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball
> > joints
> > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Re: A case of death wobble today
 

Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes straighat
ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can turn on
a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant difference in
these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the
Caster angle.

As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the
adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set during
manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle.
Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of
course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change
enough to become a player in DW.

Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball joints,
and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be
about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint
should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit
different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than lesser
angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will search
for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There is
an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn, or a
manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking stall.
Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if the
wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and
requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive it back
to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants to
go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.

In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so the
analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works pretty
well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for now.

My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.





"Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire test
and
> it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get the
> caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would be a
> player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off,
> wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other?
>
> It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to the
> tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt a
> little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and
will
> replace it as soon as I can find one.
>
> Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all together
> because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. But
> will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again.
>
> Thanks again,
> Terry.
>
>
>
>
> "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer
> would
> > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I
> > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been
> suggested
> > to correct me?)
> >
> > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with
> looseness,
> > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation
test.
> If
> > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if
> the
> > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking
the
> > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else
on
> > the
> > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new
> and
> > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends,
drag
> > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight.
I
> > just
> > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> > >
> > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens.
I'll
> > have
> > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if
> > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that
> same
> > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought.
If
> > she
> > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old
> > steering
> > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the
> > drag
> > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod
> instead
> > > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> > >
> > > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> > >
> > > Terry
> > > 92YJ
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > > >
> > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for
> > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a
> > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the
> > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to
> > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or
> > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some
> > > > front end work.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > > >
> > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW
> > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the
> > ball
> > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
> > > >
> > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and
> it
> > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same
direction.
> > > During
> > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking
for
> > the
> > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where
> the
> > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then
> > heads
> > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because
it
> > has
> > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral
> downward
> > > from
> > > > there.
> > > >
> > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable
in
> a
> > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but
the
> > idea
> > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it
positions
> > the
> > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment
as
> > much
> > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on
> your
> > > YJ
> > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other
> issues.
> > > Ball
> > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the
one
> > > that
> > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious
> > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the
> test
> > > for
> > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the
> ground
> > > and
> > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom,
> and
> > > 2.)
> > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in
> > either
> > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel
> back
> > > and
> > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in
the
> > tie
> > > > rod ends.
> > > >
> > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the
> tie
> > > rod
> > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing
the
> > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball
> > joints
> > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts
and
> > the
> > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only
> > necessary
> > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball
> > joints
> > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>