Re: Re: Pinion angle
 

On 11 May 2007 14:33:50 -0700, nrs <neale_rs@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Thanks. My apologies for not explaining fully. I need to clarify that
>my question refers to the rear axle only, the front one will be OK.
>Also, mainly I'm trying to decide at what angle to weld on the spring
>perches.
>
>Option 1 is to attach the perches so that the pinion angle is parallel
>to the floor, just like stock. Once the lift is in, the angles would
>be reduced by using a SYE and a single cardan DS would be used,
>keeping TC output and axle pinion parallel.

SOmething to remember here that many overlook when setting angle.
While you are on the right track here setting equal oppsite angle
(which I assume you are trying to say with your parrallel term) you
want to set the rear pinion a few extra degres down. The reason for
this is that under load, the torque on wheels caused axle housing to
wrap up a bit in springs changing the angle. This is a normal reaction
and the amout od wrapup depends on tirres size and spring stiffness
but it does occur.

>
>Option 2 is to attach the perches so that the pinion is rotated up a
>few degrees if installed without shims and perhaps shim it down to
>parallel until I get the 2.5 inch lift, at which point it would be
>shimmed to point up to the output of the TC and a CV driveshaft would
>be used along with a SYE.


You have four options here, The first is to use regular Ujoints at
eithe end with yoke phased 90 degrees apart and have equal opposit
angle as stated above. The second one is to align the driveshaft
parallel to Tcase outputshaft (which may not be practical) and use a
CV on rear axle pinion flange. The third is to align the static drive
shaft angle with perch welding or shims (with a few extra degrees of
down tilt for torque reaction) and install a CV on Tcase output yoke.
(this is more viable) and the forth choice is to use CV's on both
ends of drive shaft and set rear axle pinion up some for clearance but
not too far top compromise oiling of pinion bearings. When you doe
raise pinion up a lot (say more than 10 degrees or so from level) you
want to increase the lube level in rear axle a bit so that pinion
bearing are properly lubed and cooled as all times. Off all four, the
last will be the most relaible with first least reliable because even
if you get angles right to cancel out velocity variations that cause
vibration as Ujoint flex, the torque capacity of the joint decrease as
angle increases and it will wear a lot out sooner. The second and
third choice would have a lot better joint life and the forth the
longest. I hope I did not muddy the water too much for you.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com

Re: Re: Pinion angle
 

On 11 May 2007 14:33:50 -0700, nrs <neale_rs@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Thanks. My apologies for not explaining fully. I need to clarify that
>my question refers to the rear axle only, the front one will be OK.
>Also, mainly I'm trying to decide at what angle to weld on the spring
>perches.
>
>Option 1 is to attach the perches so that the pinion angle is parallel
>to the floor, just like stock. Once the lift is in, the angles would
>be reduced by using a SYE and a single cardan DS would be used,
>keeping TC output and axle pinion parallel.

SOmething to remember here that many overlook when setting angle.
While you are on the right track here setting equal oppsite angle
(which I assume you are trying to say with your parrallel term) you
want to set the rear pinion a few extra degres down. The reason for
this is that under load, the torque on wheels caused axle housing to
wrap up a bit in springs changing the angle. This is a normal reaction
and the amout od wrapup depends on tirres size and spring stiffness
but it does occur.

>
>Option 2 is to attach the perches so that the pinion is rotated up a
>few degrees if installed without shims and perhaps shim it down to
>parallel until I get the 2.5 inch lift, at which point it would be
>shimmed to point up to the output of the TC and a CV driveshaft would
>be used along with a SYE.


You have four options here, The first is to use regular Ujoints at
eithe end with yoke phased 90 degrees apart and have equal opposit
angle as stated above. The second one is to align the driveshaft
parallel to Tcase outputshaft (which may not be practical) and use a
CV on rear axle pinion flange. The third is to align the static drive
shaft angle with perch welding or shims (with a few extra degrees of
down tilt for torque reaction) and install a CV on Tcase output yoke.
(this is more viable) and the forth choice is to use CV's on both
ends of drive shaft and set rear axle pinion up some for clearance but
not too far top compromise oiling of pinion bearings. When you doe
raise pinion up a lot (say more than 10 degrees or so from level) you
want to increase the lube level in rear axle a bit so that pinion
bearing are properly lubed and cooled as all times. Off all four, the
last will be the most relaible with first least reliable because even
if you get angles right to cancel out velocity variations that cause
vibration as Ujoint flex, the torque capacity of the joint decrease as
angle increases and it will wear a lot out sooner. The second and
third choice would have a lot better joint life and the forth the
longest. I hope I did not muddy the water too much for you.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com

Re: Re: Pinion angle
 

On 11 May 2007 14:33:50 -0700, nrs <neale_rs@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Thanks. My apologies for not explaining fully. I need to clarify that
>my question refers to the rear axle only, the front one will be OK.
>Also, mainly I'm trying to decide at what angle to weld on the spring
>perches.
>
>Option 1 is to attach the perches so that the pinion angle is parallel
>to the floor, just like stock. Once the lift is in, the angles would
>be reduced by using a SYE and a single cardan DS would be used,
>keeping TC output and axle pinion parallel.

SOmething to remember here that many overlook when setting angle.
While you are on the right track here setting equal oppsite angle
(which I assume you are trying to say with your parrallel term) you
want to set the rear pinion a few extra degres down. The reason for
this is that under load, the torque on wheels caused axle housing to
wrap up a bit in springs changing the angle. This is a normal reaction
and the amout od wrapup depends on tirres size and spring stiffness
but it does occur.

>
>Option 2 is to attach the perches so that the pinion is rotated up a
>few degrees if installed without shims and perhaps shim it down to
>parallel until I get the 2.5 inch lift, at which point it would be
>shimmed to point up to the output of the TC and a CV driveshaft would
>be used along with a SYE.


You have four options here, The first is to use regular Ujoints at
eithe end with yoke phased 90 degrees apart and have equal opposit
angle as stated above. The second one is to align the driveshaft
parallel to Tcase outputshaft (which may not be practical) and use a
CV on rear axle pinion flange. The third is to align the static drive
shaft angle with perch welding or shims (with a few extra degrees of
down tilt for torque reaction) and install a CV on Tcase output yoke.
(this is more viable) and the forth choice is to use CV's on both
ends of drive shaft and set rear axle pinion up some for clearance but
not too far top compromise oiling of pinion bearings. When you doe
raise pinion up a lot (say more than 10 degrees or so from level) you
want to increase the lube level in rear axle a bit so that pinion
bearing are properly lubed and cooled as all times. Off all four, the
last will be the most relaible with first least reliable because even
if you get angles right to cancel out velocity variations that cause
vibration as Ujoint flex, the torque capacity of the joint decrease as
angle increases and it will wear a lot out sooner. The second and
third choice would have a lot better joint life and the forth the
longest. I hope I did not muddy the water too much for you.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com

Re: Pinion angle
 

On May 11, 5:05 pm, SnoMan <a...@snoman.com> wrote:
> On 11 May 2007 14:33:50 -0700, nrs <neale...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Thanks. My apologies for not explaining fully. I need to clarify that
> >my question refers to the rear axle only, the front one will be OK.
> >Also, mainly I'm trying to decide at what angle to weld on the spring
> >perches.
>
> >Option 1 is to attach the perches so that the pinion angle is parallel
> >to the floor, just like stock. Once the lift is in, the angles would
> >be reduced by using a SYE and a single cardan DS would be used,
> >keeping TC output and axle pinion parallel.
>
> SOmething to remember here that many overlook when setting angle.
> While you are on the right track here setting equal oppsite angle
> (which I assume you are trying to say with your parrallel term) you
> want to set the rear pinion a few extra degres down. The reason for
> this is that under load, the torque on wheels caused axle housing to
> wrap up a bit in springs changing the angle. This is a normal reaction
> and the amout od wrapup depends on tirres size and spring stiffness
> but it does occur.
>
>
>
> >Option 2 is to attach the perches so that the pinion is rotated up a
> >few degrees if installed without shims and perhaps shim it down to
> >parallel until I get the 2.5 inch lift, at which point it would be
> >shimmed to point up to the output of the TC and a CV driveshaft would
> >be used along with a SYE.
>
> You have four options here, The first is to use regular Ujoints at
> eithe end with yoke phased 90 degrees apart and have equal opposit
> angle as stated above. The second one is to align the driveshaft
> parallel to Tcase outputshaft (which may not be practical) and use a
> CV on rear axle pinion flange. The third is to align the static drive
> shaft angle with perch welding or shims (with a few extra degrees of
> down tilt for torque reaction) and install a CV on Tcase output yoke.
> (this is more viable) and the forth choice is to use CV's on both
> ends of drive shaft and set rear axle pinion up some for clearance but
> not too far top compromise oiling of pinion bearings. When you doe
> raise pinion up a lot (say more than 10 degrees or so from level) you
> want to increase the lube level in rear axle a bit so that pinion
> bearing are properly lubed and cooled as all times. Off all four, the
> last will be the most relaible with first least reliable because even
> if you get angles right to cancel out velocity variations that cause
> vibration as Ujoint flex, the torque capacity of the joint decrease as
> angle increases and it will wear a lot out sooner. The second and
> third choice would have a lot better joint life and the forth the
> longest. I hope I did not muddy the water too much for you.
> -----------------
> TheSnoMan.com

Not muddy, makes sense. Thanks for the ideas.
One other question: How bad is it to weld and reweld on axle tubes?
Here we are talking about removing the factory-attached perches (first
welding), welding perches in a position suitable for the pre-lift
installation (second welding), removing these perches at a later time,
and welding perches in a new position suitable for the lifted jeep
(third welding). That is a lot of welding, will it harm the tubes,
make them brittle?

Thanks

Re: Pinion angle
 

On May 11, 5:05 pm, SnoMan <a...@snoman.com> wrote:
> On 11 May 2007 14:33:50 -0700, nrs <neale...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Thanks. My apologies for not explaining fully. I need to clarify that
> >my question refers to the rear axle only, the front one will be OK.
> >Also, mainly I'm trying to decide at what angle to weld on the spring
> >perches.
>
> >Option 1 is to attach the perches so that the pinion angle is parallel
> >to the floor, just like stock. Once the lift is in, the angles would
> >be reduced by using a SYE and a single cardan DS would be used,
> >keeping TC output and axle pinion parallel.
>
> SOmething to remember here that many overlook when setting angle.
> While you are on the right track here setting equal oppsite angle
> (which I assume you are trying to say with your parrallel term) you
> want to set the rear pinion a few extra degres down. The reason for
> this is that under load, the torque on wheels caused axle housing to
> wrap up a bit in springs changing the angle. This is a normal reaction
> and the amout od wrapup depends on tirres size and spring stiffness
> but it does occur.
>
>
>
> >Option 2 is to attach the perches so that the pinion is rotated up a
> >few degrees if installed without shims and perhaps shim it down to
> >parallel until I get the 2.5 inch lift, at which point it would be
> >shimmed to point up to the output of the TC and a CV driveshaft would
> >be used along with a SYE.
>
> You have four options here, The first is to use regular Ujoints at
> eithe end with yoke phased 90 degrees apart and have equal opposit
> angle as stated above. The second one is to align the driveshaft
> parallel to Tcase outputshaft (which may not be practical) and use a
> CV on rear axle pinion flange. The third is to align the static drive
> shaft angle with perch welding or shims (with a few extra degrees of
> down tilt for torque reaction) and install a CV on Tcase output yoke.
> (this is more viable) and the forth choice is to use CV's on both
> ends of drive shaft and set rear axle pinion up some for clearance but
> not too far top compromise oiling of pinion bearings. When you doe
> raise pinion up a lot (say more than 10 degrees or so from level) you
> want to increase the lube level in rear axle a bit so that pinion
> bearing are properly lubed and cooled as all times. Off all four, the
> last will be the most relaible with first least reliable because even
> if you get angles right to cancel out velocity variations that cause
> vibration as Ujoint flex, the torque capacity of the joint decrease as
> angle increases and it will wear a lot out sooner. The second and
> third choice would have a lot better joint life and the forth the
> longest. I hope I did not muddy the water too much for you.
> -----------------
> TheSnoMan.com

Not muddy, makes sense. Thanks for the ideas.
One other question: How bad is it to weld and reweld on axle tubes?
Here we are talking about removing the factory-attached perches (first
welding), welding perches in a position suitable for the pre-lift
installation (second welding), removing these perches at a later time,
and welding perches in a new position suitable for the lifted jeep
(third welding). That is a lot of welding, will it harm the tubes,
make them brittle?

Thanks

Re: Pinion angle
 

On May 11, 5:05 pm, SnoMan <a...@snoman.com> wrote:
> On 11 May 2007 14:33:50 -0700, nrs <neale...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Thanks. My apologies for not explaining fully. I need to clarify that
> >my question refers to the rear axle only, the front one will be OK.
> >Also, mainly I'm trying to decide at what angle to weld on the spring
> >perches.
>
> >Option 1 is to attach the perches so that the pinion angle is parallel
> >to the floor, just like stock. Once the lift is in, the angles would
> >be reduced by using a SYE and a single cardan DS would be used,
> >keeping TC output and axle pinion parallel.
>
> SOmething to remember here that many overlook when setting angle.
> While you are on the right track here setting equal oppsite angle
> (which I assume you are trying to say with your parrallel term) you
> want to set the rear pinion a few extra degres down. The reason for
> this is that under load, the torque on wheels caused axle housing to
> wrap up a bit in springs changing the angle. This is a normal reaction
> and the amout od wrapup depends on tirres size and spring stiffness
> but it does occur.
>
>
>
> >Option 2 is to attach the perches so that the pinion is rotated up a
> >few degrees if installed without shims and perhaps shim it down to
> >parallel until I get the 2.5 inch lift, at which point it would be
> >shimmed to point up to the output of the TC and a CV driveshaft would
> >be used along with a SYE.
>
> You have four options here, The first is to use regular Ujoints at
> eithe end with yoke phased 90 degrees apart and have equal opposit
> angle as stated above. The second one is to align the driveshaft
> parallel to Tcase outputshaft (which may not be practical) and use a
> CV on rear axle pinion flange. The third is to align the static drive
> shaft angle with perch welding or shims (with a few extra degrees of
> down tilt for torque reaction) and install a CV on Tcase output yoke.
> (this is more viable) and the forth choice is to use CV's on both
> ends of drive shaft and set rear axle pinion up some for clearance but
> not too far top compromise oiling of pinion bearings. When you doe
> raise pinion up a lot (say more than 10 degrees or so from level) you
> want to increase the lube level in rear axle a bit so that pinion
> bearing are properly lubed and cooled as all times. Off all four, the
> last will be the most relaible with first least reliable because even
> if you get angles right to cancel out velocity variations that cause
> vibration as Ujoint flex, the torque capacity of the joint decrease as
> angle increases and it will wear a lot out sooner. The second and
> third choice would have a lot better joint life and the forth the
> longest. I hope I did not muddy the water too much for you.
> -----------------
> TheSnoMan.com

Not muddy, makes sense. Thanks for the ideas.
One other question: How bad is it to weld and reweld on axle tubes?
Here we are talking about removing the factory-attached perches (first
welding), welding perches in a position suitable for the pre-lift
installation (second welding), removing these perches at a later time,
and welding perches in a new position suitable for the lifted jeep
(third welding). That is a lot of welding, will it harm the tubes,
make them brittle?

Thanks

Re: Pinion angle
 

On May 11, 5:05 pm, SnoMan <a...@snoman.com> wrote:
> On 11 May 2007 14:33:50 -0700, nrs <neale...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Thanks. My apologies for not explaining fully. I need to clarify that
> >my question refers to the rear axle only, the front one will be OK.
> >Also, mainly I'm trying to decide at what angle to weld on the spring
> >perches.
>
> >Option 1 is to attach the perches so that the pinion angle is parallel
> >to the floor, just like stock. Once the lift is in, the angles would
> >be reduced by using a SYE and a single cardan DS would be used,
> >keeping TC output and axle pinion parallel.
>
> SOmething to remember here that many overlook when setting angle.
> While you are on the right track here setting equal oppsite angle
> (which I assume you are trying to say with your parrallel term) you
> want to set the rear pinion a few extra degres down. The reason for
> this is that under load, the torque on wheels caused axle housing to
> wrap up a bit in springs changing the angle. This is a normal reaction
> and the amout od wrapup depends on tirres size and spring stiffness
> but it does occur.
>
>
>
> >Option 2 is to attach the perches so that the pinion is rotated up a
> >few degrees if installed without shims and perhaps shim it down to
> >parallel until I get the 2.5 inch lift, at which point it would be
> >shimmed to point up to the output of the TC and a CV driveshaft would
> >be used along with a SYE.
>
> You have four options here, The first is to use regular Ujoints at
> eithe end with yoke phased 90 degrees apart and have equal opposit
> angle as stated above. The second one is to align the driveshaft
> parallel to Tcase outputshaft (which may not be practical) and use a
> CV on rear axle pinion flange. The third is to align the static drive
> shaft angle with perch welding or shims (with a few extra degrees of
> down tilt for torque reaction) and install a CV on Tcase output yoke.
> (this is more viable) and the forth choice is to use CV's on both
> ends of drive shaft and set rear axle pinion up some for clearance but
> not too far top compromise oiling of pinion bearings. When you doe
> raise pinion up a lot (say more than 10 degrees or so from level) you
> want to increase the lube level in rear axle a bit so that pinion
> bearing are properly lubed and cooled as all times. Off all four, the
> last will be the most relaible with first least reliable because even
> if you get angles right to cancel out velocity variations that cause
> vibration as Ujoint flex, the torque capacity of the joint decrease as
> angle increases and it will wear a lot out sooner. The second and
> third choice would have a lot better joint life and the forth the
> longest. I hope I did not muddy the water too much for you.
> -----------------
> TheSnoMan.com

Not muddy, makes sense. Thanks for the ideas.
One other question: How bad is it to weld and reweld on axle tubes?
Here we are talking about removing the factory-attached perches (first
welding), welding perches in a position suitable for the pre-lift
installation (second welding), removing these perches at a later time,
and welding perches in a new position suitable for the lifted jeep
(third welding). That is a lot of welding, will it harm the tubes,
make them brittle?

Thanks

Re: Pinion angle
 

> One other question: How bad is it to weld and reweld on axle tubes?
> Here we are talking about removing the factory-attached perches (first
> welding), welding perches in a position suitable for the pre-lift
> installation (second welding), removing these perches at a later time,
> and welding perches in a new position suitable for the lifted jeep
> (third welding). That is a lot of welding, will it harm the tubes,
> make them brittle?
>
> Thanks
>

The problem with welding is that if not done properlly, it will bend the
axle tubes. Every time you make a weld on the axle tube, after the weld
cools off, it will curve slightlly the tube towards the weld. The welds
must be performed very carefully with the minimal amount of welding needed.
Make small welds at a time, and wait for the axle tube to cool before
welding on the next spot. Don't use water or anything else to help cooling.
Do not get carried away with the welder, don't make continuous passes and
avoid welds with deep penetration. Study how the factory-attached perches
were welded and try to reproduce the same weld pterern.
If you follow the above, I wouldn't be worried about the axle getting
weaker.

As far as what setup with the drive-shafts to use, it all depends to how
much lift you plan to install in the future.
2.5" lift is about as much as you can get away without a SYE, but it would
require both pinion angle adjustment and a bit of TC lowering.

However if you have the SYE installed in the TC, and since you will need a
new drive-shaft for it anyway, why not get one with a CV? It would be a much
better combination than no CV at all. And with 2.5" lift you wont have any
complications. IMO it would be more practical to weld the perches once as
close to the correct position for a 2.5" lift and shim it lower until you
install the lift.

Bill Spiliotopoulos,
'96XJ, '06 TJ.

Re: Pinion angle
 

> One other question: How bad is it to weld and reweld on axle tubes?
> Here we are talking about removing the factory-attached perches (first
> welding), welding perches in a position suitable for the pre-lift
> installation (second welding), removing these perches at a later time,
> and welding perches in a new position suitable for the lifted jeep
> (third welding). That is a lot of welding, will it harm the tubes,
> make them brittle?
>
> Thanks
>

The problem with welding is that if not done properlly, it will bend the
axle tubes. Every time you make a weld on the axle tube, after the weld
cools off, it will curve slightlly the tube towards the weld. The welds
must be performed very carefully with the minimal amount of welding needed.
Make small welds at a time, and wait for the axle tube to cool before
welding on the next spot. Don't use water or anything else to help cooling.
Do not get carried away with the welder, don't make continuous passes and
avoid welds with deep penetration. Study how the factory-attached perches
were welded and try to reproduce the same weld pterern.
If you follow the above, I wouldn't be worried about the axle getting
weaker.

As far as what setup with the drive-shafts to use, it all depends to how
much lift you plan to install in the future.
2.5" lift is about as much as you can get away without a SYE, but it would
require both pinion angle adjustment and a bit of TC lowering.

However if you have the SYE installed in the TC, and since you will need a
new drive-shaft for it anyway, why not get one with a CV? It would be a much
better combination than no CV at all. And with 2.5" lift you wont have any
complications. IMO it would be more practical to weld the perches once as
close to the correct position for a 2.5" lift and shim it lower until you
install the lift.

Bill Spiliotopoulos,
'96XJ, '06 TJ.

Re: Pinion angle
 

> One other question: How bad is it to weld and reweld on axle tubes?
> Here we are talking about removing the factory-attached perches (first
> welding), welding perches in a position suitable for the pre-lift
> installation (second welding), removing these perches at a later time,
> and welding perches in a new position suitable for the lifted jeep
> (third welding). That is a lot of welding, will it harm the tubes,
> make them brittle?
>
> Thanks
>

The problem with welding is that if not done properlly, it will bend the
axle tubes. Every time you make a weld on the axle tube, after the weld
cools off, it will curve slightlly the tube towards the weld. The welds
must be performed very carefully with the minimal amount of welding needed.
Make small welds at a time, and wait for the axle tube to cool before
welding on the next spot. Don't use water or anything else to help cooling.
Do not get carried away with the welder, don't make continuous passes and
avoid welds with deep penetration. Study how the factory-attached perches
were welded and try to reproduce the same weld pterern.
If you follow the above, I wouldn't be worried about the axle getting
weaker.

As far as what setup with the drive-shafts to use, it all depends to how
much lift you plan to install in the future.
2.5" lift is about as much as you can get away without a SYE, but it would
require both pinion angle adjustment and a bit of TC lowering.

However if you have the SYE installed in the TC, and since you will need a
new drive-shaft for it anyway, why not get one with a CV? It would be a much
better combination than no CV at all. And with 2.5" lift you wont have any
complications. IMO it would be more practical to weld the perches once as
close to the correct position for a 2.5" lift and shim it lower until you
install the lift.

Bill Spiliotopoulos,
'96XJ, '06 TJ.