Michigan Jeepers Loose member to strapping accident..
10-13-2004, 12:29 PM
#81
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Michigan Jeepers Loose member to strapping accident..
Do the world a favor, and the next time you see this "toggle"
demonstrated, jump up on the stag and correct them.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
>
> Of course the dowel sees the forces of towing, but it is not impact forces
> like a bat and baseball contacting.
>
> If a tow hook goes, then using a dowel as a toggle will mean the connection
> will immediately loosen and absorb some of the projectile energy that would
> otherwise be transmitted to the hook. By using the dowel as a means to
> disconnect the looped-together straps, it becomes part of the projectile as
> well.
demonstrated, jump up on the stag and correct them.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
>
> Of course the dowel sees the forces of towing, but it is not impact forces
> like a bat and baseball contacting.
>
> If a tow hook goes, then using a dowel as a toggle will mean the connection
> will immediately loosen and absorb some of the projectile energy that would
> otherwise be transmitted to the hook. By using the dowel as a means to
> disconnect the looped-together straps, it becomes part of the projectile as
> well.
10-13-2004, 12:29 PM
#82
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Michigan Jeepers Loose member to strapping accident..
Do the world a favor, and the next time you see this "toggle"
demonstrated, jump up on the stag and correct them.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
>
> Of course the dowel sees the forces of towing, but it is not impact forces
> like a bat and baseball contacting.
>
> If a tow hook goes, then using a dowel as a toggle will mean the connection
> will immediately loosen and absorb some of the projectile energy that would
> otherwise be transmitted to the hook. By using the dowel as a means to
> disconnect the looped-together straps, it becomes part of the projectile as
> well.
demonstrated, jump up on the stag and correct them.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
>
> Of course the dowel sees the forces of towing, but it is not impact forces
> like a bat and baseball contacting.
>
> If a tow hook goes, then using a dowel as a toggle will mean the connection
> will immediately loosen and absorb some of the projectile energy that would
> otherwise be transmitted to the hook. By using the dowel as a means to
> disconnect the looped-together straps, it becomes part of the projectile as
> well.
10-13-2004, 12:40 PM
#83
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Michigan Jeepers Loose member to strapping accident..
When I was about 8 my Dad had a 62 International Travel-all. We were in Baja
at Estero Beach, and a whale had washed up.
We watched the Mexicans try to get it back into the water, then they decided
to eat it or something, so a cop shot it a few times. They enlisted Dad's
help to try and pull it up the beach.
They wrapped a chain around it's tail, and Dad started pulling.
I was in the back of the rig, watching out of the tailgate window when the
beast moved it's tail and the chain parted at the rearmost hook.
It flew up and left a line of dents on the roof and hood from bumper to
bumper. It could have been a lot worse.
Be careful.
--
Paul Calman, Hathaway Pines, California
at Estero Beach, and a whale had washed up.
We watched the Mexicans try to get it back into the water, then they decided
to eat it or something, so a cop shot it a few times. They enlisted Dad's
help to try and pull it up the beach.
They wrapped a chain around it's tail, and Dad started pulling.
I was in the back of the rig, watching out of the tailgate window when the
beast moved it's tail and the chain parted at the rearmost hook.
It flew up and left a line of dents on the roof and hood from bumper to
bumper. It could have been a lot worse.
Be careful.
--
Paul Calman, Hathaway Pines, California
10-13-2004, 12:40 PM
#84
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Michigan Jeepers Loose member to strapping accident..
When I was about 8 my Dad had a 62 International Travel-all. We were in Baja
at Estero Beach, and a whale had washed up.
We watched the Mexicans try to get it back into the water, then they decided
to eat it or something, so a cop shot it a few times. They enlisted Dad's
help to try and pull it up the beach.
They wrapped a chain around it's tail, and Dad started pulling.
I was in the back of the rig, watching out of the tailgate window when the
beast moved it's tail and the chain parted at the rearmost hook.
It flew up and left a line of dents on the roof and hood from bumper to
bumper. It could have been a lot worse.
Be careful.
--
Paul Calman, Hathaway Pines, California
at Estero Beach, and a whale had washed up.
We watched the Mexicans try to get it back into the water, then they decided
to eat it or something, so a cop shot it a few times. They enlisted Dad's
help to try and pull it up the beach.
They wrapped a chain around it's tail, and Dad started pulling.
I was in the back of the rig, watching out of the tailgate window when the
beast moved it's tail and the chain parted at the rearmost hook.
It flew up and left a line of dents on the roof and hood from bumper to
bumper. It could have been a lot worse.
Be careful.
--
Paul Calman, Hathaway Pines, California
10-13-2004, 12:40 PM
#85
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Michigan Jeepers Loose member to strapping accident..
When I was about 8 my Dad had a 62 International Travel-all. We were in Baja
at Estero Beach, and a whale had washed up.
We watched the Mexicans try to get it back into the water, then they decided
to eat it or something, so a cop shot it a few times. They enlisted Dad's
help to try and pull it up the beach.
They wrapped a chain around it's tail, and Dad started pulling.
I was in the back of the rig, watching out of the tailgate window when the
beast moved it's tail and the chain parted at the rearmost hook.
It flew up and left a line of dents on the roof and hood from bumper to
bumper. It could have been a lot worse.
Be careful.
--
Paul Calman, Hathaway Pines, California
at Estero Beach, and a whale had washed up.
We watched the Mexicans try to get it back into the water, then they decided
to eat it or something, so a cop shot it a few times. They enlisted Dad's
help to try and pull it up the beach.
They wrapped a chain around it's tail, and Dad started pulling.
I was in the back of the rig, watching out of the tailgate window when the
beast moved it's tail and the chain parted at the rearmost hook.
It flew up and left a line of dents on the roof and hood from bumper to
bumper. It could have been a lot worse.
Be careful.
--
Paul Calman, Hathaway Pines, California
10-13-2004, 12:48 PM
#86
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Michigan Jeepers Loose member to strapping accident..
Right, that's the reason we use tow straps, if we yanked as hard
with a chain it'd rip the bumpers off.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Mike Romain wrote:
>
> Have you ever seen how hard a strap can come up?
>
> Hard enough of an 'impact' to shear hooks and bolts and tear off
> bumpers.
>
> The stick sees the exact same impact.
>
> The impact from trying to ****** Steve Seppala's YJ out of a snowbank
> snapped off my rear cross member. We are talking channel steel
> structurally welded onto the frame.
>
> This thread started because a gent got killed when a 'steel' clamp let
> loose in between two straps due to that same impact. A chunk of wood is
> 'just' as deadly stuck in the same place that steel clamp was if it lets
> loose!
>
> To each their own I guess, but 'I' sure won't recommend using a freaking
> stick as a structural point in a tow setup that is for sure and that
> Mark gent still needs to be slapped!
>
> Mike
with a chain it'd rip the bumpers off.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Mike Romain wrote:
>
> Have you ever seen how hard a strap can come up?
>
> Hard enough of an 'impact' to shear hooks and bolts and tear off
> bumpers.
>
> The stick sees the exact same impact.
>
> The impact from trying to ****** Steve Seppala's YJ out of a snowbank
> snapped off my rear cross member. We are talking channel steel
> structurally welded onto the frame.
>
> This thread started because a gent got killed when a 'steel' clamp let
> loose in between two straps due to that same impact. A chunk of wood is
> 'just' as deadly stuck in the same place that steel clamp was if it lets
> loose!
>
> To each their own I guess, but 'I' sure won't recommend using a freaking
> stick as a structural point in a tow setup that is for sure and that
> Mark gent still needs to be slapped!
>
> Mike
10-13-2004, 12:48 PM
#87
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Michigan Jeepers Loose member to strapping accident..
Right, that's the reason we use tow straps, if we yanked as hard
with a chain it'd rip the bumpers off.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Mike Romain wrote:
>
> Have you ever seen how hard a strap can come up?
>
> Hard enough of an 'impact' to shear hooks and bolts and tear off
> bumpers.
>
> The stick sees the exact same impact.
>
> The impact from trying to ****** Steve Seppala's YJ out of a snowbank
> snapped off my rear cross member. We are talking channel steel
> structurally welded onto the frame.
>
> This thread started because a gent got killed when a 'steel' clamp let
> loose in between two straps due to that same impact. A chunk of wood is
> 'just' as deadly stuck in the same place that steel clamp was if it lets
> loose!
>
> To each their own I guess, but 'I' sure won't recommend using a freaking
> stick as a structural point in a tow setup that is for sure and that
> Mark gent still needs to be slapped!
>
> Mike
with a chain it'd rip the bumpers off.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Mike Romain wrote:
>
> Have you ever seen how hard a strap can come up?
>
> Hard enough of an 'impact' to shear hooks and bolts and tear off
> bumpers.
>
> The stick sees the exact same impact.
>
> The impact from trying to ****** Steve Seppala's YJ out of a snowbank
> snapped off my rear cross member. We are talking channel steel
> structurally welded onto the frame.
>
> This thread started because a gent got killed when a 'steel' clamp let
> loose in between two straps due to that same impact. A chunk of wood is
> 'just' as deadly stuck in the same place that steel clamp was if it lets
> loose!
>
> To each their own I guess, but 'I' sure won't recommend using a freaking
> stick as a structural point in a tow setup that is for sure and that
> Mark gent still needs to be slapped!
>
> Mike
10-13-2004, 12:48 PM
#88
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Michigan Jeepers Loose member to strapping accident..
Right, that's the reason we use tow straps, if we yanked as hard
with a chain it'd rip the bumpers off.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Mike Romain wrote:
>
> Have you ever seen how hard a strap can come up?
>
> Hard enough of an 'impact' to shear hooks and bolts and tear off
> bumpers.
>
> The stick sees the exact same impact.
>
> The impact from trying to ****** Steve Seppala's YJ out of a snowbank
> snapped off my rear cross member. We are talking channel steel
> structurally welded onto the frame.
>
> This thread started because a gent got killed when a 'steel' clamp let
> loose in between two straps due to that same impact. A chunk of wood is
> 'just' as deadly stuck in the same place that steel clamp was if it lets
> loose!
>
> To each their own I guess, but 'I' sure won't recommend using a freaking
> stick as a structural point in a tow setup that is for sure and that
> Mark gent still needs to be slapped!
>
> Mike
with a chain it'd rip the bumpers off.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Mike Romain wrote:
>
> Have you ever seen how hard a strap can come up?
>
> Hard enough of an 'impact' to shear hooks and bolts and tear off
> bumpers.
>
> The stick sees the exact same impact.
>
> The impact from trying to ****** Steve Seppala's YJ out of a snowbank
> snapped off my rear cross member. We are talking channel steel
> structurally welded onto the frame.
>
> This thread started because a gent got killed when a 'steel' clamp let
> loose in between two straps due to that same impact. A chunk of wood is
> 'just' as deadly stuck in the same place that steel clamp was if it lets
> loose!
>
> To each their own I guess, but 'I' sure won't recommend using a freaking
> stick as a structural point in a tow setup that is for sure and that
> Mark gent still needs to be slapped!
>
> Mike
10-13-2004, 01:07 PM
#89
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Michigan Jeepers Loose member to strapping accident..
If it goes ballistic, it won't go ballistic toward either vehicle, but at a
90 deg direction from the pull. Think about it. It's not like using a clevis
to connect straps.
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:416D54C7.5EE6242A@sympatico.ca...
> If the wood breaks using that method, it 'will' still go ballistic.
>
> Hard wood at ballistic speeds is just as dangerous as steel.
>
> Mike
>
> Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
> >
> > I have no doubt that looping the straps together may make a stronger
> > connection, depending on the dowel used in the toggle method. However,
> > IMHO, if the wood breaks using the toggle method, it served as a safety
> > buffer by preventing something very seriod from breaking off one of the
> > vehicles. If the straps disconnect, the worst that would happen is the
stuck
> > vehicle is still stuck. Unless you're trying to pull it up a rockface,
in
> > which case you shouldn't be using a tow strap to begin with.
> >
> > "Jerry Bransford" <jerrypb@***.net> wrote in message
> > news:Nhcbd.33528$_a3.17105@fed1read05...
> > > But Matt, looping the straps through each other is, at least in my
> > opinion,
> > > a better/stronger/more secure method than joining them via a piece of
wood
> > > that with everyone's interpretation of what is suitable, means
variable
> > > suitability of the wood used. I'll continue looping tow straps
together
> > and
> > > using the wood only as a means to help undo the loop after I'm done.
At
> > > least if the wood breaks, the loops won't come apart which could
> > potentially
> > > cause a problem for one of the two vehicles.
> > >
> > > Jerry
> > > --
> > > Jerry Bransford
> > > PP-ASEL N6TAY
> > > See the Geezer Jeep at
> > > http://members.***.net/jerrypb/
> > > "Matt Macchiarolo" <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote in message
> > > news:5IydnYChgqYc0_DcRVn-pg@comcast.com...
> > > > Jerry,
> > > >
> > > > Mark Smith absolutely DID NOT loop the straps together when he
> > > > demonstrated
> > > > using the dowel at the 2000 Penns Woods Jeep Jamboree. He used the
dowel
> > > > as
> > > > a toggle to connect the two straps. It was probably 2 1/2' diameter,
> > we're
> > > > not talking about a small piece of wood.
> > > >
> > > > The point being that if something breaks, most likely it would be
the
> > > > dowel,
> > > > and it would break in such a way to minimize the risk to bystanders
(who
> > > > should already be at a safe distance). And if it did break, the
straps
> > > > would
> > > > immediately disconnect. If something on either truck broke before
the
> > > > dowel
> > > > broke, the toggle connection would immediately loosen and absorb
some
> > > > energy
> > > > that would otherwise be transmitted down the strap to the 3-lb piece
of
> > > > steel that broke off.
> > > >
> > > > By connecting the straps directly, you effectively have a very long
> > strap
> > > > out of two straps that will not disconnect if something breaks,
meaning
> > > > bystanders would have to move farther away to be at a safe distance.
> > > >
> > > > "Jerry Bransford" <jerrypb@***.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:8_bbd.33425$_a3.23030@fed1read05...
> > > >> I got confused over how it was put together in the demonstration
but be
> > > > sure
> > > >> to remember that the straps do need to be looped through each
other.
> > The
> > > >> inserted dowel or whatever is inserted only serves to keep them
from
> > > >> being
> > > >> pulled into each other so tightly during the pull that they're
nearly
> > > >> impossible to separate.
> > > >>
> > > >> Jerry
> > > >> --
> > > >> Jerry Bransford
> > > >> PP-ASEL N6TAY
> > > >> See the Geezer Jeep at
> > > >> http://members.***.net/jerrypb/
> > > >> "FrankW" <fworm@mxznorpak.ca> wrote in message
> > > >> news:rI-dnRHKCtRv2_DcRVn-ug@magma.ca...
> > > >> >I never did get my knot badge from scouts :-)
> > > >> > Can someone please provide a picture or diagram
> > > >> > to explain this method. for both straps and rope
> > > >> > Thanks in advance
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
> > > >> >> Down boy. I said that tongue-in-cheek. Mr. Smith demonstrated
with a
> > > >> >> 2"
> > > >> >> hardwood dowel. How he instructed us is exactly how I said it,
using
> > a
> > > >> >> the
> > > >> >> dowel as a toggle through the loop of one of the straps. The
dowel
> > > >> >> doesn't
> > > >> >> see impact forces. I never said he'd cut down a sapling and
strip
> > the
> > > >> >> bark
> > > >> >> off. It's just something you carry with you.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> It stuck with me because (a) he never looped a strap back on
itself
> > > >> >> and
> > > >> >> (b)
> > > >> >> as soon as he pulled the dowel out, the straps came right apart
> > > >> >> without
> > > >> >> unlooping.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > >> >> news:416D3EDB.22505CF4@sympatico.ca...
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>Wow, that is freaking amazing!!!!
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>I cannot believe someone who seems so 'Jeep savvy' would be
stupid
> > > >> >>>enough to rely on an unknown stick to trust his life too.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>Maybe he has a death wish?
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>Are you sure you just didn't mistake his using the stick as a
knot
> > > >> >>>holder like I describe below so it can be undone for using the
stick
> > > >> >>>as
> > > >> >>>part of the structure?
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>My straps are rated for 30,000 lb each.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>The shear force on a baseball bat or on an ax handle or hammer
> > handle
> > > >> >>>under impact is 'not' very high. I have busted more than one by
> > just
> > > >> >>>hitting a ball or a log or a board slightly wrong. And you are
> > > >> >>>talking
> > > >> >>>an unknown freaking chunk of tree?
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>So when I take my Jeep and '******' a stuck vehicle using
vehicle
> > > >> >>>momentum to the point of breaking a strap or ripping bumpers
off, I
> > > > sure
> > > >> >>>as hell wouldn't want to be relying on a stupid stick as the
'fuse'
> > in
> > > >> >>>the equation!!!!!
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>That would just be suicidal. Literally.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>I would recommend you watch a Logger's safety video to see just
how
> > > > fast
> > > >> >>>and hard pieces or chips of wood will fly when broken under
> > pressure.
> > > >> >>>Or even hurricane test videos where 2x4's go right through
concrete
> > > >> >>>walls.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>Sorry Matt, but you must be mistaken on the placement of the
stick.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>Mike
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>>Mark Smith...
> > > >> >>>>http://jeepjamboreeusa.com/aboutus.htm
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>Like Steve said, it's a tree with the bark peeled off...
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > >> >>>>news:416C52F5.D28CAF86@sympatico.ca...
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>He just didn't know the right way to use the dowel. :-(
> > > >> >>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>You put the two loops together so they lock. The dowel just
goes
> > > >> >>>>>between them so you can pry them apart.
> > > >> >>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>Hole one loop up. Put second strap's loop over one you are
> > holding
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> then
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>feed the second straps other end through the first loop.
Bingo,
> > two
> > > >> >>>>>locked together loops.
> > > >> >>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>Wood can go just as ballistic as steel if it snaps under
pressure.
> > > > In
> > > >> >>>>>my mind the person who showed you that method should be
slapped.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Hard!.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>Mike
> > > >> >>>>>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > >> >>>>>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > >> >>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
> > > >> >>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>I met Mark Smith at a Jeep Jamboree a few years ago, and he
> > showed
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> us a
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>different way of connecting straps with a dowel...pull the
end of
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Strap
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>1
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>through the loop of Strap 2, then insert the dowel into the
loop
> > of
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>Strap 1,
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>essentially making the dowel a toggle. If the dowel breaks,
it
> > will
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>break
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>inward, and the wood pieces won't fly toward either vehicle.
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>I made a dowel out of a hardwood sledgehammer handle. It
should
> > > >> >>>>>>have
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> a
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>minimum diameter of 2 inches. I've used this method several
times
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> and
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>have
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>yet to have a problem with breakage, and when done, you slip
the
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> dowel
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>out
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>and the two straps instantly come apart.
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>I've never personally met the fellow that was killed, but I
am
> > sure
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> some
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>members of my off-road club know him. What a tragedy.
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>"Jerry Bransford" <jerrypb@***.net> wrote in message
> > > >> >>>>>>news:R0Tad.29426$_a3.9250@fed1read05...
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>The dowel doesn't really hold the straps, they are (should
be)
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> looped
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>>through each other. The dowel is only (should only) be
there so
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> the
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>straps
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>can be pulled apart after the pull has been completed.
Without
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> the
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>dowel,
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>they can be difficult to disengage the straps from each
other
> > due
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> to
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>the
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>force of the pull.
> > > >> >>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>Jerry
> > > >> >>>>>>>--
> > > >> >>>>>>>Jerry Bransford
> > > >> >>>>>>>PP-ASEL N6TAY
> > > >> >>>>>>>See the Geezer Jeep at
> > > >> >>>>>>>http://members.***.net/jerrypb/
> > > >> >>>>>>>"aGraham" <aarongraham@mac.com.removeme> wrote in message
> > > >> >>>>>>>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
news:aarongraham-86F2F0.11170112102004@corp-radius.supernews.com...
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>Very sad....
> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>I know I have used a clevis for this purpose in the past,
but
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>recently a
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>wheeling buddy showed me how to use a 1.5" diameter wooden
> > dowel
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> to
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>connect 2 straps when one is not long enough. Would
believe
> > the
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>dowel
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>would be the first thing to break, or if not it would not
have
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> the
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>weight/inertia to become a projectile.
> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>Any one have any ideas/cautions on using this instead?
> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>In article <OaSad.79414$vO1.445558@nnrp1.uunet.ca>,
> > > >> >>>>>>>>"Jeff" <jrhiltz@av.easlink.ca> wrote:
> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>This is sooo sad....it breaks my heart...the tears have
been
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>shed....I
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>don't
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>know the man, but is a Jeeper and means he is all our
> > friend...
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>I'm a new Jeeper and our club has had many discussions on
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> tugging
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>and
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>what
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>to use and not to use...
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>and I have already seen this joining two straps together
by a
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>cleavis....
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>I
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>know I will never see it again NOW....I will never let
this
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> happen
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>in
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>my
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>presence as it has really opened my eyes...
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>God Bless the family and friends of the deceased...
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>you are in our prayers....
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>Jeff
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>"JeepNutz" <jeepinDAMMITgene@ISAID.NO.SPAM> wrote in
message
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>news:RhCad.243631$3l3.183113@attbi_s03. ..
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>> To all the newbies out there.. straps are dangerous
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>animals...
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>
> > > >
> >
http://michiganjeepers.com/eve/ubb.x...109322&m=90210
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>6753&p=1
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>>--
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>>Gene
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>>Jeep, because life is an adventure, not a race.
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>--
> > > >> >>>>>>>> o_o_o_o
> > > >> >>>>>>>> /| ,[_____],
> > > >> >>>>>>>> |¯¯¯L --O|||||||O-
> > > >> >>>>>>>> ()_)¯()_) ¯¯¯¯¯ )_)
> > > >> >>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
90 deg direction from the pull. Think about it. It's not like using a clevis
to connect straps.
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:416D54C7.5EE6242A@sympatico.ca...
> If the wood breaks using that method, it 'will' still go ballistic.
>
> Hard wood at ballistic speeds is just as dangerous as steel.
>
> Mike
>
> Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
> >
> > I have no doubt that looping the straps together may make a stronger
> > connection, depending on the dowel used in the toggle method. However,
> > IMHO, if the wood breaks using the toggle method, it served as a safety
> > buffer by preventing something very seriod from breaking off one of the
> > vehicles. If the straps disconnect, the worst that would happen is the
stuck
> > vehicle is still stuck. Unless you're trying to pull it up a rockface,
in
> > which case you shouldn't be using a tow strap to begin with.
> >
> > "Jerry Bransford" <jerrypb@***.net> wrote in message
> > news:Nhcbd.33528$_a3.17105@fed1read05...
> > > But Matt, looping the straps through each other is, at least in my
> > opinion,
> > > a better/stronger/more secure method than joining them via a piece of
wood
> > > that with everyone's interpretation of what is suitable, means
variable
> > > suitability of the wood used. I'll continue looping tow straps
together
> > and
> > > using the wood only as a means to help undo the loop after I'm done.
At
> > > least if the wood breaks, the loops won't come apart which could
> > potentially
> > > cause a problem for one of the two vehicles.
> > >
> > > Jerry
> > > --
> > > Jerry Bransford
> > > PP-ASEL N6TAY
> > > See the Geezer Jeep at
> > > http://members.***.net/jerrypb/
> > > "Matt Macchiarolo" <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote in message
> > > news:5IydnYChgqYc0_DcRVn-pg@comcast.com...
> > > > Jerry,
> > > >
> > > > Mark Smith absolutely DID NOT loop the straps together when he
> > > > demonstrated
> > > > using the dowel at the 2000 Penns Woods Jeep Jamboree. He used the
dowel
> > > > as
> > > > a toggle to connect the two straps. It was probably 2 1/2' diameter,
> > we're
> > > > not talking about a small piece of wood.
> > > >
> > > > The point being that if something breaks, most likely it would be
the
> > > > dowel,
> > > > and it would break in such a way to minimize the risk to bystanders
(who
> > > > should already be at a safe distance). And if it did break, the
straps
> > > > would
> > > > immediately disconnect. If something on either truck broke before
the
> > > > dowel
> > > > broke, the toggle connection would immediately loosen and absorb
some
> > > > energy
> > > > that would otherwise be transmitted down the strap to the 3-lb piece
of
> > > > steel that broke off.
> > > >
> > > > By connecting the straps directly, you effectively have a very long
> > strap
> > > > out of two straps that will not disconnect if something breaks,
meaning
> > > > bystanders would have to move farther away to be at a safe distance.
> > > >
> > > > "Jerry Bransford" <jerrypb@***.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:8_bbd.33425$_a3.23030@fed1read05...
> > > >> I got confused over how it was put together in the demonstration
but be
> > > > sure
> > > >> to remember that the straps do need to be looped through each
other.
> > The
> > > >> inserted dowel or whatever is inserted only serves to keep them
from
> > > >> being
> > > >> pulled into each other so tightly during the pull that they're
nearly
> > > >> impossible to separate.
> > > >>
> > > >> Jerry
> > > >> --
> > > >> Jerry Bransford
> > > >> PP-ASEL N6TAY
> > > >> See the Geezer Jeep at
> > > >> http://members.***.net/jerrypb/
> > > >> "FrankW" <fworm@mxznorpak.ca> wrote in message
> > > >> news:rI-dnRHKCtRv2_DcRVn-ug@magma.ca...
> > > >> >I never did get my knot badge from scouts :-)
> > > >> > Can someone please provide a picture or diagram
> > > >> > to explain this method. for both straps and rope
> > > >> > Thanks in advance
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
> > > >> >> Down boy. I said that tongue-in-cheek. Mr. Smith demonstrated
with a
> > > >> >> 2"
> > > >> >> hardwood dowel. How he instructed us is exactly how I said it,
using
> > a
> > > >> >> the
> > > >> >> dowel as a toggle through the loop of one of the straps. The
dowel
> > > >> >> doesn't
> > > >> >> see impact forces. I never said he'd cut down a sapling and
strip
> > the
> > > >> >> bark
> > > >> >> off. It's just something you carry with you.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> It stuck with me because (a) he never looped a strap back on
itself
> > > >> >> and
> > > >> >> (b)
> > > >> >> as soon as he pulled the dowel out, the straps came right apart
> > > >> >> without
> > > >> >> unlooping.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > >> >> news:416D3EDB.22505CF4@sympatico.ca...
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>Wow, that is freaking amazing!!!!
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>I cannot believe someone who seems so 'Jeep savvy' would be
stupid
> > > >> >>>enough to rely on an unknown stick to trust his life too.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>Maybe he has a death wish?
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>Are you sure you just didn't mistake his using the stick as a
knot
> > > >> >>>holder like I describe below so it can be undone for using the
stick
> > > >> >>>as
> > > >> >>>part of the structure?
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>My straps are rated for 30,000 lb each.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>The shear force on a baseball bat or on an ax handle or hammer
> > handle
> > > >> >>>under impact is 'not' very high. I have busted more than one by
> > just
> > > >> >>>hitting a ball or a log or a board slightly wrong. And you are
> > > >> >>>talking
> > > >> >>>an unknown freaking chunk of tree?
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>So when I take my Jeep and '******' a stuck vehicle using
vehicle
> > > >> >>>momentum to the point of breaking a strap or ripping bumpers
off, I
> > > > sure
> > > >> >>>as hell wouldn't want to be relying on a stupid stick as the
'fuse'
> > in
> > > >> >>>the equation!!!!!
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>That would just be suicidal. Literally.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>I would recommend you watch a Logger's safety video to see just
how
> > > > fast
> > > >> >>>and hard pieces or chips of wood will fly when broken under
> > pressure.
> > > >> >>>Or even hurricane test videos where 2x4's go right through
concrete
> > > >> >>>walls.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>Sorry Matt, but you must be mistaken on the placement of the
stick.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>Mike
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>>Mark Smith...
> > > >> >>>>http://jeepjamboreeusa.com/aboutus.htm
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>Like Steve said, it's a tree with the bark peeled off...
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > >> >>>>news:416C52F5.D28CAF86@sympatico.ca...
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>He just didn't know the right way to use the dowel. :-(
> > > >> >>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>You put the two loops together so they lock. The dowel just
goes
> > > >> >>>>>between them so you can pry them apart.
> > > >> >>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>Hole one loop up. Put second strap's loop over one you are
> > holding
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> then
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>feed the second straps other end through the first loop.
Bingo,
> > two
> > > >> >>>>>locked together loops.
> > > >> >>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>Wood can go just as ballistic as steel if it snaps under
pressure.
> > > > In
> > > >> >>>>>my mind the person who showed you that method should be
slapped.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Hard!.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>Mike
> > > >> >>>>>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > >> >>>>>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > >> >>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
> > > >> >>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>I met Mark Smith at a Jeep Jamboree a few years ago, and he
> > showed
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> us a
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>different way of connecting straps with a dowel...pull the
end of
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Strap
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>1
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>through the loop of Strap 2, then insert the dowel into the
loop
> > of
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>Strap 1,
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>essentially making the dowel a toggle. If the dowel breaks,
it
> > will
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>break
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>inward, and the wood pieces won't fly toward either vehicle.
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>I made a dowel out of a hardwood sledgehammer handle. It
should
> > > >> >>>>>>have
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> a
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>minimum diameter of 2 inches. I've used this method several
times
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> and
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>have
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>yet to have a problem with breakage, and when done, you slip
the
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> dowel
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>out
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>and the two straps instantly come apart.
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>I've never personally met the fellow that was killed, but I
am
> > sure
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> some
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>members of my off-road club know him. What a tragedy.
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>"Jerry Bransford" <jerrypb@***.net> wrote in message
> > > >> >>>>>>news:R0Tad.29426$_a3.9250@fed1read05...
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>The dowel doesn't really hold the straps, they are (should
be)
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> looped
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>>through each other. The dowel is only (should only) be
there so
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> the
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>straps
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>can be pulled apart after the pull has been completed.
Without
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> the
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>dowel,
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>they can be difficult to disengage the straps from each
other
> > due
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> to
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>the
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>force of the pull.
> > > >> >>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>Jerry
> > > >> >>>>>>>--
> > > >> >>>>>>>Jerry Bransford
> > > >> >>>>>>>PP-ASEL N6TAY
> > > >> >>>>>>>See the Geezer Jeep at
> > > >> >>>>>>>http://members.***.net/jerrypb/
> > > >> >>>>>>>"aGraham" <aarongraham@mac.com.removeme> wrote in message
> > > >> >>>>>>>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
news:aarongraham-86F2F0.11170112102004@corp-radius.supernews.com...
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>Very sad....
> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>I know I have used a clevis for this purpose in the past,
but
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>recently a
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>wheeling buddy showed me how to use a 1.5" diameter wooden
> > dowel
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> to
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>connect 2 straps when one is not long enough. Would
believe
> > the
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>dowel
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>would be the first thing to break, or if not it would not
have
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> the
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>weight/inertia to become a projectile.
> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>Any one have any ideas/cautions on using this instead?
> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>In article <OaSad.79414$vO1.445558@nnrp1.uunet.ca>,
> > > >> >>>>>>>>"Jeff" <jrhiltz@av.easlink.ca> wrote:
> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>This is sooo sad....it breaks my heart...the tears have
been
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>shed....I
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>don't
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>know the man, but is a Jeeper and means he is all our
> > friend...
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>I'm a new Jeeper and our club has had many discussions on
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> tugging
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>and
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>what
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>to use and not to use...
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>and I have already seen this joining two straps together
by a
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>cleavis....
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>I
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>know I will never see it again NOW....I will never let
this
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> happen
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>in
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>my
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>presence as it has really opened my eyes...
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>God Bless the family and friends of the deceased...
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>you are in our prayers....
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>Jeff
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>"JeepNutz" <jeepinDAMMITgene@ISAID.NO.SPAM> wrote in
message
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>news:RhCad.243631$3l3.183113@attbi_s03. ..
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>> To all the newbies out there.. straps are dangerous
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>animals...
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>
> > > >
> >
http://michiganjeepers.com/eve/ubb.x...109322&m=90210
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>6753&p=1
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>>--
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>>Gene
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>>Jeep, because life is an adventure, not a race.
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>--
> > > >> >>>>>>>> o_o_o_o
> > > >> >>>>>>>> /| ,[_____],
> > > >> >>>>>>>> |¯¯¯L --O|||||||O-
> > > >> >>>>>>>> ()_)¯()_) ¯¯¯¯¯ )_)
> > > >> >>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
10-13-2004, 01:07 PM
#90
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Michigan Jeepers Loose member to strapping accident..
If it goes ballistic, it won't go ballistic toward either vehicle, but at a
90 deg direction from the pull. Think about it. It's not like using a clevis
to connect straps.
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:416D54C7.5EE6242A@sympatico.ca...
> If the wood breaks using that method, it 'will' still go ballistic.
>
> Hard wood at ballistic speeds is just as dangerous as steel.
>
> Mike
>
> Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
> >
> > I have no doubt that looping the straps together may make a stronger
> > connection, depending on the dowel used in the toggle method. However,
> > IMHO, if the wood breaks using the toggle method, it served as a safety
> > buffer by preventing something very seriod from breaking off one of the
> > vehicles. If the straps disconnect, the worst that would happen is the
stuck
> > vehicle is still stuck. Unless you're trying to pull it up a rockface,
in
> > which case you shouldn't be using a tow strap to begin with.
> >
> > "Jerry Bransford" <jerrypb@***.net> wrote in message
> > news:Nhcbd.33528$_a3.17105@fed1read05...
> > > But Matt, looping the straps through each other is, at least in my
> > opinion,
> > > a better/stronger/more secure method than joining them via a piece of
wood
> > > that with everyone's interpretation of what is suitable, means
variable
> > > suitability of the wood used. I'll continue looping tow straps
together
> > and
> > > using the wood only as a means to help undo the loop after I'm done.
At
> > > least if the wood breaks, the loops won't come apart which could
> > potentially
> > > cause a problem for one of the two vehicles.
> > >
> > > Jerry
> > > --
> > > Jerry Bransford
> > > PP-ASEL N6TAY
> > > See the Geezer Jeep at
> > > http://members.***.net/jerrypb/
> > > "Matt Macchiarolo" <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote in message
> > > news:5IydnYChgqYc0_DcRVn-pg@comcast.com...
> > > > Jerry,
> > > >
> > > > Mark Smith absolutely DID NOT loop the straps together when he
> > > > demonstrated
> > > > using the dowel at the 2000 Penns Woods Jeep Jamboree. He used the
dowel
> > > > as
> > > > a toggle to connect the two straps. It was probably 2 1/2' diameter,
> > we're
> > > > not talking about a small piece of wood.
> > > >
> > > > The point being that if something breaks, most likely it would be
the
> > > > dowel,
> > > > and it would break in such a way to minimize the risk to bystanders
(who
> > > > should already be at a safe distance). And if it did break, the
straps
> > > > would
> > > > immediately disconnect. If something on either truck broke before
the
> > > > dowel
> > > > broke, the toggle connection would immediately loosen and absorb
some
> > > > energy
> > > > that would otherwise be transmitted down the strap to the 3-lb piece
of
> > > > steel that broke off.
> > > >
> > > > By connecting the straps directly, you effectively have a very long
> > strap
> > > > out of two straps that will not disconnect if something breaks,
meaning
> > > > bystanders would have to move farther away to be at a safe distance.
> > > >
> > > > "Jerry Bransford" <jerrypb@***.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:8_bbd.33425$_a3.23030@fed1read05...
> > > >> I got confused over how it was put together in the demonstration
but be
> > > > sure
> > > >> to remember that the straps do need to be looped through each
other.
> > The
> > > >> inserted dowel or whatever is inserted only serves to keep them
from
> > > >> being
> > > >> pulled into each other so tightly during the pull that they're
nearly
> > > >> impossible to separate.
> > > >>
> > > >> Jerry
> > > >> --
> > > >> Jerry Bransford
> > > >> PP-ASEL N6TAY
> > > >> See the Geezer Jeep at
> > > >> http://members.***.net/jerrypb/
> > > >> "FrankW" <fworm@mxznorpak.ca> wrote in message
> > > >> news:rI-dnRHKCtRv2_DcRVn-ug@magma.ca...
> > > >> >I never did get my knot badge from scouts :-)
> > > >> > Can someone please provide a picture or diagram
> > > >> > to explain this method. for both straps and rope
> > > >> > Thanks in advance
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
> > > >> >> Down boy. I said that tongue-in-cheek. Mr. Smith demonstrated
with a
> > > >> >> 2"
> > > >> >> hardwood dowel. How he instructed us is exactly how I said it,
using
> > a
> > > >> >> the
> > > >> >> dowel as a toggle through the loop of one of the straps. The
dowel
> > > >> >> doesn't
> > > >> >> see impact forces. I never said he'd cut down a sapling and
strip
> > the
> > > >> >> bark
> > > >> >> off. It's just something you carry with you.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> It stuck with me because (a) he never looped a strap back on
itself
> > > >> >> and
> > > >> >> (b)
> > > >> >> as soon as he pulled the dowel out, the straps came right apart
> > > >> >> without
> > > >> >> unlooping.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > >> >> news:416D3EDB.22505CF4@sympatico.ca...
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>Wow, that is freaking amazing!!!!
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>I cannot believe someone who seems so 'Jeep savvy' would be
stupid
> > > >> >>>enough to rely on an unknown stick to trust his life too.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>Maybe he has a death wish?
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>Are you sure you just didn't mistake his using the stick as a
knot
> > > >> >>>holder like I describe below so it can be undone for using the
stick
> > > >> >>>as
> > > >> >>>part of the structure?
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>My straps are rated for 30,000 lb each.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>The shear force on a baseball bat or on an ax handle or hammer
> > handle
> > > >> >>>under impact is 'not' very high. I have busted more than one by
> > just
> > > >> >>>hitting a ball or a log or a board slightly wrong. And you are
> > > >> >>>talking
> > > >> >>>an unknown freaking chunk of tree?
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>So when I take my Jeep and '******' a stuck vehicle using
vehicle
> > > >> >>>momentum to the point of breaking a strap or ripping bumpers
off, I
> > > > sure
> > > >> >>>as hell wouldn't want to be relying on a stupid stick as the
'fuse'
> > in
> > > >> >>>the equation!!!!!
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>That would just be suicidal. Literally.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>I would recommend you watch a Logger's safety video to see just
how
> > > > fast
> > > >> >>>and hard pieces or chips of wood will fly when broken under
> > pressure.
> > > >> >>>Or even hurricane test videos where 2x4's go right through
concrete
> > > >> >>>walls.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>Sorry Matt, but you must be mistaken on the placement of the
stick.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>Mike
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>>Mark Smith...
> > > >> >>>>http://jeepjamboreeusa.com/aboutus.htm
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>Like Steve said, it's a tree with the bark peeled off...
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > >> >>>>news:416C52F5.D28CAF86@sympatico.ca...
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>He just didn't know the right way to use the dowel. :-(
> > > >> >>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>You put the two loops together so they lock. The dowel just
goes
> > > >> >>>>>between them so you can pry them apart.
> > > >> >>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>Hole one loop up. Put second strap's loop over one you are
> > holding
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> then
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>feed the second straps other end through the first loop.
Bingo,
> > two
> > > >> >>>>>locked together loops.
> > > >> >>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>Wood can go just as ballistic as steel if it snaps under
pressure.
> > > > In
> > > >> >>>>>my mind the person who showed you that method should be
slapped.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Hard!.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>Mike
> > > >> >>>>>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > >> >>>>>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > >> >>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
> > > >> >>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>I met Mark Smith at a Jeep Jamboree a few years ago, and he
> > showed
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> us a
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>different way of connecting straps with a dowel...pull the
end of
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Strap
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>1
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>through the loop of Strap 2, then insert the dowel into the
loop
> > of
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>Strap 1,
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>essentially making the dowel a toggle. If the dowel breaks,
it
> > will
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>break
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>inward, and the wood pieces won't fly toward either vehicle.
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>I made a dowel out of a hardwood sledgehammer handle. It
should
> > > >> >>>>>>have
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> a
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>minimum diameter of 2 inches. I've used this method several
times
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> and
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>have
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>yet to have a problem with breakage, and when done, you slip
the
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> dowel
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>out
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>and the two straps instantly come apart.
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>I've never personally met the fellow that was killed, but I
am
> > sure
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> some
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>members of my off-road club know him. What a tragedy.
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>"Jerry Bransford" <jerrypb@***.net> wrote in message
> > > >> >>>>>>news:R0Tad.29426$_a3.9250@fed1read05...
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>The dowel doesn't really hold the straps, they are (should
be)
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> looped
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>>through each other. The dowel is only (should only) be
there so
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> the
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>straps
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>can be pulled apart after the pull has been completed.
Without
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> the
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>dowel,
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>they can be difficult to disengage the straps from each
other
> > due
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> to
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>the
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>force of the pull.
> > > >> >>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>Jerry
> > > >> >>>>>>>--
> > > >> >>>>>>>Jerry Bransford
> > > >> >>>>>>>PP-ASEL N6TAY
> > > >> >>>>>>>See the Geezer Jeep at
> > > >> >>>>>>>http://members.***.net/jerrypb/
> > > >> >>>>>>>"aGraham" <aarongraham@mac.com.removeme> wrote in message
> > > >> >>>>>>>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
news:aarongraham-86F2F0.11170112102004@corp-radius.supernews.com...
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>Very sad....
> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>I know I have used a clevis for this purpose in the past,
but
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>recently a
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>wheeling buddy showed me how to use a 1.5" diameter wooden
> > dowel
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> to
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>connect 2 straps when one is not long enough. Would
believe
> > the
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>dowel
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>would be the first thing to break, or if not it would not
have
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> the
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>weight/inertia to become a projectile.
> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>Any one have any ideas/cautions on using this instead?
> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>In article <OaSad.79414$vO1.445558@nnrp1.uunet.ca>,
> > > >> >>>>>>>>"Jeff" <jrhiltz@av.easlink.ca> wrote:
> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>This is sooo sad....it breaks my heart...the tears have
been
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>shed....I
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>don't
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>know the man, but is a Jeeper and means he is all our
> > friend...
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>I'm a new Jeeper and our club has had many discussions on
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> tugging
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>and
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>what
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>to use and not to use...
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>and I have already seen this joining two straps together
by a
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>cleavis....
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>I
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>know I will never see it again NOW....I will never let
this
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> happen
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>in
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>my
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>presence as it has really opened my eyes...
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>God Bless the family and friends of the deceased...
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>you are in our prayers....
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>Jeff
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>"JeepNutz" <jeepinDAMMITgene@ISAID.NO.SPAM> wrote in
message
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>news:RhCad.243631$3l3.183113@attbi_s03. ..
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>> To all the newbies out there.. straps are dangerous
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>animals...
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>
> > > >
> >
http://michiganjeepers.com/eve/ubb.x...109322&m=90210
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>6753&p=1
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>>--
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>>Gene
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>>Jeep, because life is an adventure, not a race.
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>--
> > > >> >>>>>>>> o_o_o_o
> > > >> >>>>>>>> /| ,[_____],
> > > >> >>>>>>>> |¯¯¯L --O|||||||O-
> > > >> >>>>>>>> ()_)¯()_) ¯¯¯¯¯ )_)
> > > >> >>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
90 deg direction from the pull. Think about it. It's not like using a clevis
to connect straps.
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:416D54C7.5EE6242A@sympatico.ca...
> If the wood breaks using that method, it 'will' still go ballistic.
>
> Hard wood at ballistic speeds is just as dangerous as steel.
>
> Mike
>
> Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
> >
> > I have no doubt that looping the straps together may make a stronger
> > connection, depending on the dowel used in the toggle method. However,
> > IMHO, if the wood breaks using the toggle method, it served as a safety
> > buffer by preventing something very seriod from breaking off one of the
> > vehicles. If the straps disconnect, the worst that would happen is the
stuck
> > vehicle is still stuck. Unless you're trying to pull it up a rockface,
in
> > which case you shouldn't be using a tow strap to begin with.
> >
> > "Jerry Bransford" <jerrypb@***.net> wrote in message
> > news:Nhcbd.33528$_a3.17105@fed1read05...
> > > But Matt, looping the straps through each other is, at least in my
> > opinion,
> > > a better/stronger/more secure method than joining them via a piece of
wood
> > > that with everyone's interpretation of what is suitable, means
variable
> > > suitability of the wood used. I'll continue looping tow straps
together
> > and
> > > using the wood only as a means to help undo the loop after I'm done.
At
> > > least if the wood breaks, the loops won't come apart which could
> > potentially
> > > cause a problem for one of the two vehicles.
> > >
> > > Jerry
> > > --
> > > Jerry Bransford
> > > PP-ASEL N6TAY
> > > See the Geezer Jeep at
> > > http://members.***.net/jerrypb/
> > > "Matt Macchiarolo" <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote in message
> > > news:5IydnYChgqYc0_DcRVn-pg@comcast.com...
> > > > Jerry,
> > > >
> > > > Mark Smith absolutely DID NOT loop the straps together when he
> > > > demonstrated
> > > > using the dowel at the 2000 Penns Woods Jeep Jamboree. He used the
dowel
> > > > as
> > > > a toggle to connect the two straps. It was probably 2 1/2' diameter,
> > we're
> > > > not talking about a small piece of wood.
> > > >
> > > > The point being that if something breaks, most likely it would be
the
> > > > dowel,
> > > > and it would break in such a way to minimize the risk to bystanders
(who
> > > > should already be at a safe distance). And if it did break, the
straps
> > > > would
> > > > immediately disconnect. If something on either truck broke before
the
> > > > dowel
> > > > broke, the toggle connection would immediately loosen and absorb
some
> > > > energy
> > > > that would otherwise be transmitted down the strap to the 3-lb piece
of
> > > > steel that broke off.
> > > >
> > > > By connecting the straps directly, you effectively have a very long
> > strap
> > > > out of two straps that will not disconnect if something breaks,
meaning
> > > > bystanders would have to move farther away to be at a safe distance.
> > > >
> > > > "Jerry Bransford" <jerrypb@***.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:8_bbd.33425$_a3.23030@fed1read05...
> > > >> I got confused over how it was put together in the demonstration
but be
> > > > sure
> > > >> to remember that the straps do need to be looped through each
other.
> > The
> > > >> inserted dowel or whatever is inserted only serves to keep them
from
> > > >> being
> > > >> pulled into each other so tightly during the pull that they're
nearly
> > > >> impossible to separate.
> > > >>
> > > >> Jerry
> > > >> --
> > > >> Jerry Bransford
> > > >> PP-ASEL N6TAY
> > > >> See the Geezer Jeep at
> > > >> http://members.***.net/jerrypb/
> > > >> "FrankW" <fworm@mxznorpak.ca> wrote in message
> > > >> news:rI-dnRHKCtRv2_DcRVn-ug@magma.ca...
> > > >> >I never did get my knot badge from scouts :-)
> > > >> > Can someone please provide a picture or diagram
> > > >> > to explain this method. for both straps and rope
> > > >> > Thanks in advance
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
> > > >> >> Down boy. I said that tongue-in-cheek. Mr. Smith demonstrated
with a
> > > >> >> 2"
> > > >> >> hardwood dowel. How he instructed us is exactly how I said it,
using
> > a
> > > >> >> the
> > > >> >> dowel as a toggle through the loop of one of the straps. The
dowel
> > > >> >> doesn't
> > > >> >> see impact forces. I never said he'd cut down a sapling and
strip
> > the
> > > >> >> bark
> > > >> >> off. It's just something you carry with you.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> It stuck with me because (a) he never looped a strap back on
itself
> > > >> >> and
> > > >> >> (b)
> > > >> >> as soon as he pulled the dowel out, the straps came right apart
> > > >> >> without
> > > >> >> unlooping.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > >> >> news:416D3EDB.22505CF4@sympatico.ca...
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>Wow, that is freaking amazing!!!!
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>I cannot believe someone who seems so 'Jeep savvy' would be
stupid
> > > >> >>>enough to rely on an unknown stick to trust his life too.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>Maybe he has a death wish?
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>Are you sure you just didn't mistake his using the stick as a
knot
> > > >> >>>holder like I describe below so it can be undone for using the
stick
> > > >> >>>as
> > > >> >>>part of the structure?
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>My straps are rated for 30,000 lb each.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>The shear force on a baseball bat or on an ax handle or hammer
> > handle
> > > >> >>>under impact is 'not' very high. I have busted more than one by
> > just
> > > >> >>>hitting a ball or a log or a board slightly wrong. And you are
> > > >> >>>talking
> > > >> >>>an unknown freaking chunk of tree?
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>So when I take my Jeep and '******' a stuck vehicle using
vehicle
> > > >> >>>momentum to the point of breaking a strap or ripping bumpers
off, I
> > > > sure
> > > >> >>>as hell wouldn't want to be relying on a stupid stick as the
'fuse'
> > in
> > > >> >>>the equation!!!!!
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>That would just be suicidal. Literally.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>I would recommend you watch a Logger's safety video to see just
how
> > > > fast
> > > >> >>>and hard pieces or chips of wood will fly when broken under
> > pressure.
> > > >> >>>Or even hurricane test videos where 2x4's go right through
concrete
> > > >> >>>walls.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>Sorry Matt, but you must be mistaken on the placement of the
stick.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>Mike
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>>>Mark Smith...
> > > >> >>>>http://jeepjamboreeusa.com/aboutus.htm
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>Like Steve said, it's a tree with the bark peeled off...
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > >> >>>>news:416C52F5.D28CAF86@sympatico.ca...
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>He just didn't know the right way to use the dowel. :-(
> > > >> >>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>You put the two loops together so they lock. The dowel just
goes
> > > >> >>>>>between them so you can pry them apart.
> > > >> >>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>Hole one loop up. Put second strap's loop over one you are
> > holding
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> then
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>feed the second straps other end through the first loop.
Bingo,
> > two
> > > >> >>>>>locked together loops.
> > > >> >>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>Wood can go just as ballistic as steel if it snaps under
pressure.
> > > > In
> > > >> >>>>>my mind the person who showed you that method should be
slapped.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Hard!.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>Mike
> > > >> >>>>>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > >> >>>>>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > >> >>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
> > > >> >>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>I met Mark Smith at a Jeep Jamboree a few years ago, and he
> > showed
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> us a
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>different way of connecting straps with a dowel...pull the
end of
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Strap
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>1
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>through the loop of Strap 2, then insert the dowel into the
loop
> > of
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>Strap 1,
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>essentially making the dowel a toggle. If the dowel breaks,
it
> > will
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>break
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>inward, and the wood pieces won't fly toward either vehicle.
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>I made a dowel out of a hardwood sledgehammer handle. It
should
> > > >> >>>>>>have
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> a
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>minimum diameter of 2 inches. I've used this method several
times
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> and
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>have
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>yet to have a problem with breakage, and when done, you slip
the
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> dowel
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>out
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>and the two straps instantly come apart.
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>I've never personally met the fellow that was killed, but I
am
> > sure
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> some
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>members of my off-road club know him. What a tragedy.
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>"Jerry Bransford" <jerrypb@***.net> wrote in message
> > > >> >>>>>>news:R0Tad.29426$_a3.9250@fed1read05...
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>The dowel doesn't really hold the straps, they are (should
be)
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> looped
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>>through each other. The dowel is only (should only) be
there so
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> the
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>straps
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>can be pulled apart after the pull has been completed.
Without
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> the
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>dowel,
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>they can be difficult to disengage the straps from each
other
> > due
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> to
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>the
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>force of the pull.
> > > >> >>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>Jerry
> > > >> >>>>>>>--
> > > >> >>>>>>>Jerry Bransford
> > > >> >>>>>>>PP-ASEL N6TAY
> > > >> >>>>>>>See the Geezer Jeep at
> > > >> >>>>>>>http://members.***.net/jerrypb/
> > > >> >>>>>>>"aGraham" <aarongraham@mac.com.removeme> wrote in message
> > > >> >>>>>>>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
news:aarongraham-86F2F0.11170112102004@corp-radius.supernews.com...
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>Very sad....
> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>I know I have used a clevis for this purpose in the past,
but
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>recently a
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>wheeling buddy showed me how to use a 1.5" diameter wooden
> > dowel
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> to
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>connect 2 straps when one is not long enough. Would
believe
> > the
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>dowel
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>would be the first thing to break, or if not it would not
have
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> the
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>weight/inertia to become a projectile.
> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>Any one have any ideas/cautions on using this instead?
> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>In article <OaSad.79414$vO1.445558@nnrp1.uunet.ca>,
> > > >> >>>>>>>>"Jeff" <jrhiltz@av.easlink.ca> wrote:
> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>This is sooo sad....it breaks my heart...the tears have
been
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>shed....I
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>don't
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>know the man, but is a Jeeper and means he is all our
> > friend...
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>I'm a new Jeeper and our club has had many discussions on
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> tugging
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>and
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>what
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>to use and not to use...
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>and I have already seen this joining two straps together
by a
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>cleavis....
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>I
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>know I will never see it again NOW....I will never let
this
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> happen
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>in
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>my
> > > >> >>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>presence as it has really opened my eyes...
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>God Bless the family and friends of the deceased...
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>you are in our prayers....
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>Jeff
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>"JeepNutz" <jeepinDAMMITgene@ISAID.NO.SPAM> wrote in
message
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>news:RhCad.243631$3l3.183113@attbi_s03. ..
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>> To all the newbies out there.. straps are dangerous
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>>animals...
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>
> > > >
> >
http://michiganjeepers.com/eve/ubb.x...109322&m=90210
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>6753&p=1
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>>--
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>>Gene
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>>Jeep, because life is an adventure, not a race.
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>>--
> > > >> >>>>>>>> o_o_o_o
> > > >> >>>>>>>> /| ,[_____],
> > > >> >>>>>>>> |¯¯¯L --O|||||||O-
> > > >> >>>>>>>> ()_)¯()_) ¯¯¯¯¯ )_)
> > > >> >>>>>>>
> > > >> >>>>>>>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >
> > > >>
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