L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III

Could be other problems too, like one tire's not seated.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Mike Romain wrote:
>
> When I see one thing wrong on a 'professionally' or backyard built item,
> that implies the rest is shaky at best.
>
> Death wobble doesn't just happen!
>
> Something is either broken or not built correctly.
>
> You say nothing is broken, then that only leaves me with one other
> conclusion, it is built wrong.
>
> I mean really. That is far more than just a 'guess'.
>
> Mike

L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III

AKA Roy, you haven't the ***** to take this to a private e-mail. If you
had, you would use a real address, Like Real men that take
responsibility for their actions, do.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Roy J wrote:
><Snipped babble>

L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III

AKA Roy, you haven't the ***** to take this to a private e-mail. If you
had, you would use a real address, Like Real men that take
responsibility for their actions, do.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Roy J wrote:
><Snipped babble>

L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III

AKA Roy, you haven't the ***** to take this to a private e-mail. If you
had, you would use a real address, Like Real men that take
responsibility for their actions, do.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Roy J wrote:
><Snipped babble>

L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III

Hi Mike,
They change that angle for sure and head it straight for the
transfer. I'd say for four thousand bucks the tubes will be rewelded at
the proper perch and castor angles. http://www.dynatrac.com/rock60.htm
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Mike Romain wrote:
>
> Ok, so you have a custom, built all to crap unit, eh....
>
> I have one pretty easy check 'maybe' for you...
>
> On a stock Jeep front end, the pinion face is straight up and down.
>
> So the proper caster angle corresponds to a straight up and down pinion.
>
> Mike
>
> Terry Jeffrey wrote:
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> > A few specs on my 92YJ Jeep:
> >
> > - 35" tires
> > - custom Dynatrac built D60 in both front and back
> > - SUA with RE extreme-duty 4" lift springs
> > - Confer 1" lift shackles in front
> > - 1/2" MORE lift shackles in the back (levels it out nicely)
> > - 1.25" JKS body lift
> > - TJ flares
> > - Hi-steer arms on the knuckles, tie rod mounted on the bottom
> > - Adjustable JKS track bar.
> >
> > Total of 5 3/4 - 6.25" of lift (most suspension). When the front-end was
> > built, they took all this info into consideration and I gave them several
> > measurements (running width of existing drive axle, spring pads distance,
> > etc, etc). Not to say the caster could still be off, though. This
> > front-end has about 3000 miles on it, and no problems at all with this
> > configuration until I encountered the DW the other day. At first
> > inspection, I found the track bar loose on the frame side mount. I had been
> > considering taking it off anyway, so at the time I temporarily removed it
> > just to see how the road handling would be.
> >
> > I installed the front-end and track bar, springs, etc. No shop involved
> > here. I got the aftermarket track bar to replace the original and have been
> > using it for, oh, 6 years or so. Never a problem with it. Why a track bar?
> > Because the YJ came with one originally. The spring company nor the
> > Dynatrac recommended a track bar. If fact, Dynatrac suggested removing it.
> >
> > More than one person has advised me that I don't need the track bar, but I
> > will be putting it back on anyway. Even though it may mask the real cause
> > of the DW, I still take comfort in it being there! It is aligned in perfect
> > angle with the drag link. I'll know this week if the caster is off and
> > needs a shim or two. My guess is that's got to be the real problem, but
> > we'll see.
> >
> > I bought this old Jeep new in late '91 and she now has over 203,000 miles on
> > her and still runs great with original 4.0L and tranny.
> >
> > Thanks again Mike. Hey, I didn't mean to come across as a wise-a** last
> > post to you. Some thought I sounded that way.
> >
> > Terry.
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:40391BF7.72A9DD6C@sympatico.ca...
> > > I wonder on the track bar.
> > >
> > > Please fill me in on what you have so I can at least play 'devil's
> > > advocate' with all the info I can get.... ;-)
> > >
> > > A stock YJ with the soft flat leaf springs came with a track bar.
> > >
> > > The CJ's before it with stiffer arched springs didn't come with, nor do
> > > they need a track bar, nor do the lift kits call for one.
> > >
> > > You have 35's and a Dana 60 in the front????
> > >
> > > I would then think you might just have a lift of some sorts??? Does the
> > > lift call for the track bar or is that something the shop added to make
> > > up for a possible death wobble issue rather than re-make the spring
> > > perches to get the caster right or to make up for a bad u-joint and axle
> > > angle issue?
> > >
> > > Do you have tall shackles per chance that the axle builders didn't know
> > > about. That can crap out the caster big time.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > > Terry Jeffrey wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thanks Mike. You might be right in that the caster wasn't set correctly
> > > > when built. I certainly intend to find out this week. Being built by
> > > > Dynatrac, though, it's hard to believe it isn't right. But one way to
> > find
> > > > out - get it checked.
> > > >
> > > > About the track bar and steering stabilizer. It's amazing how one hears
> > so
> > > > many conflicting suggestions from other Jeeping individuals and
> > mechanics.
> > > > But I realize what works or eliminates a problem for one might not
> > > > necessarily be the solution for another. Along with you and another
> > > > experienced Jeeping fellow I know and trust says without a doubt, put
> > the
> > > > track bar back on, which I intend to do today. One thing for sure - I
> > > > didn't experience the DW until I discovered the track bar was loose on
> > the
> > > > frame side mount. Instead of removing the loose track bar and zeroing
> > in on
> > > > the stabilizer and/or caster as the culprit, my first (and easiest) DW
> > > > "test" probably should have been to tighten the track bar back up and go
> > hit
> > > > that same bumpy road again to see if the DW was gone. I'll comment in
> > the
> > > > thread how this test goes this evening (only if I get around to doing it
> > > > today -- I busted up my left hand some working on the house yesterday,
> > and
> > > > swollen like it is at the moment isn't feeling up to the task!).
> > > >
> > > > Thank again. I appreciate your insight and knowledge.
> > > >
> > > > Terry.
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:4038D1A5.86262FC0@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > When I see one thing wrong on a 'professionally' or backyard built
> > item,
> > > > > that implies the rest is shaky at best.
> > > > >
> > > > > Death wobble doesn't just happen!
> > > > >
> > > > > Something is either broken or not built correctly.
> > > > >
> > > > > You say nothing is broken, then that only leaves me with one other
> > > > > conclusion, it is built wrong.
> > > > >
> > > > > I mean really. That is far more than just a 'guess'.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > > Terry Jeffrey wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by
> > > > Dynatrac.
> > > > > > Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is
> > > > alright,
> > > > > > but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people
> > who
> > > > have
> > > > > > placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have
> > it.
> > > > The
> > > > > > reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up
> > front
> > > > with
> > > > > > the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the
> > > > track
> > > > > > bar. The track bar is going back on today.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it.
> > I've
> > > > > > been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when
> > it
> > > > comes
> > > > > > to my rig.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > Terry.
> > > <snip>

L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III

Hi Mike,
They change that angle for sure and head it straight for the
transfer. I'd say for four thousand bucks the tubes will be rewelded at
the proper perch and castor angles. http://www.dynatrac.com/rock60.htm
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Mike Romain wrote:
>
> Ok, so you have a custom, built all to crap unit, eh....
>
> I have one pretty easy check 'maybe' for you...
>
> On a stock Jeep front end, the pinion face is straight up and down.
>
> So the proper caster angle corresponds to a straight up and down pinion.
>
> Mike
>
> Terry Jeffrey wrote:
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> > A few specs on my 92YJ Jeep:
> >
> > - 35" tires
> > - custom Dynatrac built D60 in both front and back
> > - SUA with RE extreme-duty 4" lift springs
> > - Confer 1" lift shackles in front
> > - 1/2" MORE lift shackles in the back (levels it out nicely)
> > - 1.25" JKS body lift
> > - TJ flares
> > - Hi-steer arms on the knuckles, tie rod mounted on the bottom
> > - Adjustable JKS track bar.
> >
> > Total of 5 3/4 - 6.25" of lift (most suspension). When the front-end was
> > built, they took all this info into consideration and I gave them several
> > measurements (running width of existing drive axle, spring pads distance,
> > etc, etc). Not to say the caster could still be off, though. This
> > front-end has about 3000 miles on it, and no problems at all with this
> > configuration until I encountered the DW the other day. At first
> > inspection, I found the track bar loose on the frame side mount. I had been
> > considering taking it off anyway, so at the time I temporarily removed it
> > just to see how the road handling would be.
> >
> > I installed the front-end and track bar, springs, etc. No shop involved
> > here. I got the aftermarket track bar to replace the original and have been
> > using it for, oh, 6 years or so. Never a problem with it. Why a track bar?
> > Because the YJ came with one originally. The spring company nor the
> > Dynatrac recommended a track bar. If fact, Dynatrac suggested removing it.
> >
> > More than one person has advised me that I don't need the track bar, but I
> > will be putting it back on anyway. Even though it may mask the real cause
> > of the DW, I still take comfort in it being there! It is aligned in perfect
> > angle with the drag link. I'll know this week if the caster is off and
> > needs a shim or two. My guess is that's got to be the real problem, but
> > we'll see.
> >
> > I bought this old Jeep new in late '91 and she now has over 203,000 miles on
> > her and still runs great with original 4.0L and tranny.
> >
> > Thanks again Mike. Hey, I didn't mean to come across as a wise-a** last
> > post to you. Some thought I sounded that way.
> >
> > Terry.
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:40391BF7.72A9DD6C@sympatico.ca...
> > > I wonder on the track bar.
> > >
> > > Please fill me in on what you have so I can at least play 'devil's
> > > advocate' with all the info I can get.... ;-)
> > >
> > > A stock YJ with the soft flat leaf springs came with a track bar.
> > >
> > > The CJ's before it with stiffer arched springs didn't come with, nor do
> > > they need a track bar, nor do the lift kits call for one.
> > >
> > > You have 35's and a Dana 60 in the front????
> > >
> > > I would then think you might just have a lift of some sorts??? Does the
> > > lift call for the track bar or is that something the shop added to make
> > > up for a possible death wobble issue rather than re-make the spring
> > > perches to get the caster right or to make up for a bad u-joint and axle
> > > angle issue?
> > >
> > > Do you have tall shackles per chance that the axle builders didn't know
> > > about. That can crap out the caster big time.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > > Terry Jeffrey wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thanks Mike. You might be right in that the caster wasn't set correctly
> > > > when built. I certainly intend to find out this week. Being built by
> > > > Dynatrac, though, it's hard to believe it isn't right. But one way to
> > find
> > > > out - get it checked.
> > > >
> > > > About the track bar and steering stabilizer. It's amazing how one hears
> > so
> > > > many conflicting suggestions from other Jeeping individuals and
> > mechanics.
> > > > But I realize what works or eliminates a problem for one might not
> > > > necessarily be the solution for another. Along with you and another
> > > > experienced Jeeping fellow I know and trust says without a doubt, put
> > the
> > > > track bar back on, which I intend to do today. One thing for sure - I
> > > > didn't experience the DW until I discovered the track bar was loose on
> > the
> > > > frame side mount. Instead of removing the loose track bar and zeroing
> > in on
> > > > the stabilizer and/or caster as the culprit, my first (and easiest) DW
> > > > "test" probably should have been to tighten the track bar back up and go
> > hit
> > > > that same bumpy road again to see if the DW was gone. I'll comment in
> > the
> > > > thread how this test goes this evening (only if I get around to doing it
> > > > today -- I busted up my left hand some working on the house yesterday,
> > and
> > > > swollen like it is at the moment isn't feeling up to the task!).
> > > >
> > > > Thank again. I appreciate your insight and knowledge.
> > > >
> > > > Terry.
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:4038D1A5.86262FC0@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > When I see one thing wrong on a 'professionally' or backyard built
> > item,
> > > > > that implies the rest is shaky at best.
> > > > >
> > > > > Death wobble doesn't just happen!
> > > > >
> > > > > Something is either broken or not built correctly.
> > > > >
> > > > > You say nothing is broken, then that only leaves me with one other
> > > > > conclusion, it is built wrong.
> > > > >
> > > > > I mean really. That is far more than just a 'guess'.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > > Terry Jeffrey wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by
> > > > Dynatrac.
> > > > > > Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is
> > > > alright,
> > > > > > but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people
> > who
> > > > have
> > > > > > placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have
> > it.
> > > > The
> > > > > > reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up
> > front
> > > > with
> > > > > > the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the
> > > > track
> > > > > > bar. The track bar is going back on today.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it.
> > I've
> > > > > > been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when
> > it
> > > > comes
> > > > > > to my rig.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > Terry.
> > > <snip>

L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III

Hi Mike,
They change that angle for sure and head it straight for the
transfer. I'd say for four thousand bucks the tubes will be rewelded at
the proper perch and castor angles. http://www.dynatrac.com/rock60.htm
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Mike Romain wrote:
>
> Ok, so you have a custom, built all to crap unit, eh....
>
> I have one pretty easy check 'maybe' for you...
>
> On a stock Jeep front end, the pinion face is straight up and down.
>
> So the proper caster angle corresponds to a straight up and down pinion.
>
> Mike
>
> Terry Jeffrey wrote:
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> > A few specs on my 92YJ Jeep:
> >
> > - 35" tires
> > - custom Dynatrac built D60 in both front and back
> > - SUA with RE extreme-duty 4" lift springs
> > - Confer 1" lift shackles in front
> > - 1/2" MORE lift shackles in the back (levels it out nicely)
> > - 1.25" JKS body lift
> > - TJ flares
> > - Hi-steer arms on the knuckles, tie rod mounted on the bottom
> > - Adjustable JKS track bar.
> >
> > Total of 5 3/4 - 6.25" of lift (most suspension). When the front-end was
> > built, they took all this info into consideration and I gave them several
> > measurements (running width of existing drive axle, spring pads distance,
> > etc, etc). Not to say the caster could still be off, though. This
> > front-end has about 3000 miles on it, and no problems at all with this
> > configuration until I encountered the DW the other day. At first
> > inspection, I found the track bar loose on the frame side mount. I had been
> > considering taking it off anyway, so at the time I temporarily removed it
> > just to see how the road handling would be.
> >
> > I installed the front-end and track bar, springs, etc. No shop involved
> > here. I got the aftermarket track bar to replace the original and have been
> > using it for, oh, 6 years or so. Never a problem with it. Why a track bar?
> > Because the YJ came with one originally. The spring company nor the
> > Dynatrac recommended a track bar. If fact, Dynatrac suggested removing it.
> >
> > More than one person has advised me that I don't need the track bar, but I
> > will be putting it back on anyway. Even though it may mask the real cause
> > of the DW, I still take comfort in it being there! It is aligned in perfect
> > angle with the drag link. I'll know this week if the caster is off and
> > needs a shim or two. My guess is that's got to be the real problem, but
> > we'll see.
> >
> > I bought this old Jeep new in late '91 and she now has over 203,000 miles on
> > her and still runs great with original 4.0L and tranny.
> >
> > Thanks again Mike. Hey, I didn't mean to come across as a wise-a** last
> > post to you. Some thought I sounded that way.
> >
> > Terry.
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:40391BF7.72A9DD6C@sympatico.ca...
> > > I wonder on the track bar.
> > >
> > > Please fill me in on what you have so I can at least play 'devil's
> > > advocate' with all the info I can get.... ;-)
> > >
> > > A stock YJ with the soft flat leaf springs came with a track bar.
> > >
> > > The CJ's before it with stiffer arched springs didn't come with, nor do
> > > they need a track bar, nor do the lift kits call for one.
> > >
> > > You have 35's and a Dana 60 in the front????
> > >
> > > I would then think you might just have a lift of some sorts??? Does the
> > > lift call for the track bar or is that something the shop added to make
> > > up for a possible death wobble issue rather than re-make the spring
> > > perches to get the caster right or to make up for a bad u-joint and axle
> > > angle issue?
> > >
> > > Do you have tall shackles per chance that the axle builders didn't know
> > > about. That can crap out the caster big time.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > > Terry Jeffrey wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thanks Mike. You might be right in that the caster wasn't set correctly
> > > > when built. I certainly intend to find out this week. Being built by
> > > > Dynatrac, though, it's hard to believe it isn't right. But one way to
> > find
> > > > out - get it checked.
> > > >
> > > > About the track bar and steering stabilizer. It's amazing how one hears
> > so
> > > > many conflicting suggestions from other Jeeping individuals and
> > mechanics.
> > > > But I realize what works or eliminates a problem for one might not
> > > > necessarily be the solution for another. Along with you and another
> > > > experienced Jeeping fellow I know and trust says without a doubt, put
> > the
> > > > track bar back on, which I intend to do today. One thing for sure - I
> > > > didn't experience the DW until I discovered the track bar was loose on
> > the
> > > > frame side mount. Instead of removing the loose track bar and zeroing
> > in on
> > > > the stabilizer and/or caster as the culprit, my first (and easiest) DW
> > > > "test" probably should have been to tighten the track bar back up and go
> > hit
> > > > that same bumpy road again to see if the DW was gone. I'll comment in
> > the
> > > > thread how this test goes this evening (only if I get around to doing it
> > > > today -- I busted up my left hand some working on the house yesterday,
> > and
> > > > swollen like it is at the moment isn't feeling up to the task!).
> > > >
> > > > Thank again. I appreciate your insight and knowledge.
> > > >
> > > > Terry.
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:4038D1A5.86262FC0@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > When I see one thing wrong on a 'professionally' or backyard built
> > item,
> > > > > that implies the rest is shaky at best.
> > > > >
> > > > > Death wobble doesn't just happen!
> > > > >
> > > > > Something is either broken or not built correctly.
> > > > >
> > > > > You say nothing is broken, then that only leaves me with one other
> > > > > conclusion, it is built wrong.
> > > > >
> > > > > I mean really. That is far more than just a 'guess'.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > > Terry Jeffrey wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by
> > > > Dynatrac.
> > > > > > Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is
> > > > alright,
> > > > > > but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people
> > who
> > > > have
> > > > > > placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have
> > it.
> > > > The
> > > > > > reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up
> > front
> > > > with
> > > > > > the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the
> > > > track
> > > > > > bar. The track bar is going back on today.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it.
> > I've
> > > > > > been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when
> > it
> > > > comes
> > > > > > to my rig.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > Terry.
> > > <snip>

Roy J

Sorry Bill, until YOU take reponsibilty for YOUR actions, you
will have to simmer in your own stew. And you appear to be
simmering pretty good.

I used to have the real address until the Sven virus hit me with
4mb of crap per HOUR. Which of course took my e-mail down pretty
solid after 9 years on the same name. So I will NEVER put my
e-mail address in a public forum again. Sign of the times I guess. :(

I'd suggest you wait for Terry Jeffry (the original poster) has
his front end checked out. If an INDEPENDENT mechanic/shop checks
out the massive amount of work that was done on the OP's front
end and the ONLY thing that is wrong is the stabilzer, I will
gladly appolgize for aggrevating you so much. And then I will
repeat my comment that a stabilzer just masks the underlying
problem.

Cheers.


L.W.(ßill) ------ III wrote:
> AKA Roy, you haven't the ***** to take this to a private e-mail. If you
> had, you would use a real address, Like Real men that take
> responsibility for their actions, do.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Roy J wrote:
>
>><Snipped babble>

Roy J

Sorry Bill, until YOU take reponsibilty for YOUR actions, you
will have to simmer in your own stew. And you appear to be
simmering pretty good.

I used to have the real address until the Sven virus hit me with
4mb of crap per HOUR. Which of course took my e-mail down pretty
solid after 9 years on the same name. So I will NEVER put my
e-mail address in a public forum again. Sign of the times I guess. :(

I'd suggest you wait for Terry Jeffry (the original poster) has
his front end checked out. If an INDEPENDENT mechanic/shop checks
out the massive amount of work that was done on the OP's front
end and the ONLY thing that is wrong is the stabilzer, I will
gladly appolgize for aggrevating you so much. And then I will
repeat my comment that a stabilzer just masks the underlying
problem.

Cheers.


L.W.(ßill) ------ III wrote:
> AKA Roy, you haven't the ***** to take this to a private e-mail. If you
> had, you would use a real address, Like Real men that take
> responsibility for their actions, do.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Roy J wrote:
>
>><Snipped babble>

Roy J

Sorry Bill, until YOU take reponsibilty for YOUR actions, you
will have to simmer in your own stew. And you appear to be
simmering pretty good.

I used to have the real address until the Sven virus hit me with
4mb of crap per HOUR. Which of course took my e-mail down pretty
solid after 9 years on the same name. So I will NEVER put my
e-mail address in a public forum again. Sign of the times I guess. :(

I'd suggest you wait for Terry Jeffry (the original poster) has
his front end checked out. If an INDEPENDENT mechanic/shop checks
out the massive amount of work that was done on the OP's front
end and the ONLY thing that is wrong is the stabilzer, I will
gladly appolgize for aggrevating you so much. And then I will
repeat my comment that a stabilzer just masks the underlying
problem.

Cheers.


L.W.(ßill) ------ III wrote:
> AKA Roy, you haven't the ***** to take this to a private e-mail. If you
> had, you would use a real address, Like Real men that take
> responsibility for their actions, do.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Roy J wrote:
>
>><Snipped babble>