Mike Romain

When I see one thing wrong on a 'professionally' or backyard built item,
that implies the rest is shaky at best.

Death wobble doesn't just happen!

Something is either broken or not built correctly.

You say nothing is broken, then that only leaves me with one other
conclusion, it is built wrong.

I mean really. That is far more than just a 'guess'.

Mike

Terry Jeffrey wrote:
>
> No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by Dynatrac.
> Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is alright,
> but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people who have
> placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have it. The
> reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up front with
> the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the track
> bar. The track bar is going back on today.
>
> If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it. I've
> been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when it comes
> to my rig.
>
> Regards,
> Terry.
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca...
> > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly.
> >
> > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed.
> > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in
> > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> >
> > CRWLR wrote:
> > >
> > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes
> straighat
> > > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can
> turn on
> > > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant
> difference in
> > > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the
> > > Caster angle.
> > >
> > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the
> > > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set
> during
> > > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle.
> > > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of
> > > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change
> > > enough to become a player in DW.
> > >
> > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball
> joints,
> > > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be
> > > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint
> > > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit
> > > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than
> lesser
> > > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will
> search
> > > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There
> is
> > > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn,
> or a
> > > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking
> stall.
> > > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if
> the
> > > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and
> > > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive it
> back
> > > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants
> to
> > > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
> > >
> > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so
> the
> > > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works
> pretty
> > > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for
> now.
> > >
> > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
> > >
> > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire
> test
> > > and
> > > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get
> the
> > > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would
> be a
> > > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off,
> > > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other?
> > > >
> > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to
> the
> > > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt
> a
> > > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and
> > > will
> > > > replace it as soon as I can find one.
> > > >
> > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all
> together
> > > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60.
> But
> > > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks again,
> > > > Terry.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering
> stabalizer
> > > > would
> > > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I
> > > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been
> > > > suggested
> > > > > to correct me?)
> > > > >
> > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with
> > > > looseness,
> > > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation
> > > test.
> > > > If
> > > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see
> if
> > > > the
> > > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test.
> Taking
> > > the
> > > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn
> bushings.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything
> else
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is
> new
> > > > and
> > > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod &
> ends,
> > > drag
> > > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and
> tight.
> > > I
> > > > > just
> > > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens.
> > > I'll
> > > > > have
> > > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it
> up if
> > > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in
> that
> > > > same
> > > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first
> thought.
> > > If
> > > > > she
> > > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old
> > > > > steering
> > > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to
> the
> > > > > drag
> > > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod
> > > > instead
> > > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Terry
> > > > > > 92YJ
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for
> > > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a
> > > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the
> > > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to
> > > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or
> > > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some
> > > > > > > front end work.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no
> DW
> > > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect
> the
> > > > > ball
> > > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead,
> and
> > > > it
> > > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same
> > > direction.
> > > > > > During
> > > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts
> looking
> > > for
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to
> where
> > > > the
> > > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire
> then
> > > > > heads
> > > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore
> because
> > > it
> > > > > has
> > > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral
> > > > downward
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > there.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not
> adjustable
> > > in
> > > > a
> > > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims,
> but
> > > the
> > > > > idea
> > > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it
> > > positions
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require
> adjustment
> > > as
> > > > > much
> > > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle
> on
> > > > your
> > > > > > YJ
> > > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other
> > > > issues.
> > > > > > Ball
> > > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is
> the
> > > one
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give
> serious
> > > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes
> the
> > > > test
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off
> the
> > > > ground
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the
> bottom,
> > > > and
> > > > > > 2.)
> > > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move
> in
> > > > > either
> > > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering
> wheel
> > > > back
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play
> in
> > > the
> > > > > tie
> > > > > > > rod ends.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of
> the
> > > > tie
> > > > > > rod
> > > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with
> replacing
> > > the
> > > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the
> ball
> > > > > joints
> > > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all
> like-parts
> > > and
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only
> > > > > necessary
> > > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper
> ball
> > > > > joints
> > > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >

Mike Romain

When I see one thing wrong on a 'professionally' or backyard built item,
that implies the rest is shaky at best.

Death wobble doesn't just happen!

Something is either broken or not built correctly.

You say nothing is broken, then that only leaves me with one other
conclusion, it is built wrong.

I mean really. That is far more than just a 'guess'.

Mike

Terry Jeffrey wrote:
>
> No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by Dynatrac.
> Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is alright,
> but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people who have
> placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have it. The
> reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up front with
> the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the track
> bar. The track bar is going back on today.
>
> If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it. I've
> been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when it comes
> to my rig.
>
> Regards,
> Terry.
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca...
> > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly.
> >
> > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed.
> > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in
> > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> >
> > CRWLR wrote:
> > >
> > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes
> straighat
> > > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can
> turn on
> > > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant
> difference in
> > > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the
> > > Caster angle.
> > >
> > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the
> > > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set
> during
> > > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle.
> > > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of
> > > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change
> > > enough to become a player in DW.
> > >
> > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball
> joints,
> > > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be
> > > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint
> > > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit
> > > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than
> lesser
> > > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires will
> search
> > > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There
> is
> > > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn,
> or a
> > > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking
> stall.
> > > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if
> the
> > > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and
> > > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive it
> back
> > > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants
> to
> > > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
> > >
> > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so
> the
> > > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works
> pretty
> > > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for
> now.
> > >
> > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
> > >
> > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire
> test
> > > and
> > > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get
> the
> > > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would
> be a
> > > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off,
> > > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other?
> > > >
> > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link to
> the
> > > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt
> a
> > > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and
> > > will
> > > > replace it as soon as I can find one.
> > > >
> > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all
> together
> > > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60.
> But
> > > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks again,
> > > > Terry.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering
> stabalizer
> > > > would
> > > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I
> > > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been
> > > > suggested
> > > > > to correct me?)
> > > > >
> > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with
> > > > looseness,
> > > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation
> > > test.
> > > > If
> > > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see
> if
> > > > the
> > > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test.
> Taking
> > > the
> > > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn
> bushings.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything
> else
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is
> new
> > > > and
> > > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod &
> ends,
> > > drag
> > > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and
> tight.
> > > I
> > > > > just
> > > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens.
> > > I'll
> > > > > have
> > > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it
> up if
> > > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in
> that
> > > > same
> > > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first
> thought.
> > > If
> > > > > she
> > > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old
> > > > > steering
> > > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to
> the
> > > > > drag
> > > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod
> > > > instead
> > > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Terry
> > > > > > 92YJ
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for
> > > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a
> > > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the
> > > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to
> > > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or
> > > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some
> > > > > > > front end work.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no
> DW
> > > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect
> the
> > > > > ball
> > > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead,
> and
> > > > it
> > > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same
> > > direction.
> > > > > > During
> > > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts
> looking
> > > for
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to
> where
> > > > the
> > > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire
> then
> > > > > heads
> > > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore
> because
> > > it
> > > > > has
> > > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral
> > > > downward
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > there.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not
> adjustable
> > > in
> > > > a
> > > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims,
> but
> > > the
> > > > > idea
> > > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it
> > > positions
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require
> adjustment
> > > as
> > > > > much
> > > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle
> on
> > > > your
> > > > > > YJ
> > > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other
> > > > issues.
> > > > > > Ball
> > > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is
> the
> > > one
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give
> serious
> > > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes
> the
> > > > test
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off
> the
> > > > ground
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the
> bottom,
> > > > and
> > > > > > 2.)
> > > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move
> in
> > > > > either
> > > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering
> wheel
> > > > back
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play
> in
> > > the
> > > > > tie
> > > > > > > rod ends.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of
> the
> > > > tie
> > > > > > rod
> > > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with
> replacing
> > > the
> > > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the
> ball
> > > > > joints
> > > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all
> like-parts
> > > and
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only
> > > > > necessary
> > > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper
> ball
> > > > > joints
> > > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >

Roy J

Quit trying to wiggle out of the fact that you give a flippant
answer to the orignal question that could have gotten the OP in
serious trouble. What I thought or knew was immaterial.

If you wish to continue this "discussion" in this public forum
you may. I will continue to repond that your original reply was
incomplete and could have gotten the OP in trouble.

L.W.(ßill) ------ III wrote:

> I take your opinion for what it's worth, which was worthless for
> the OP!
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Roy J wrote:
>
>><Snipped babble>

Roy J

Quit trying to wiggle out of the fact that you give a flippant
answer to the orignal question that could have gotten the OP in
serious trouble. What I thought or knew was immaterial.

If you wish to continue this "discussion" in this public forum
you may. I will continue to repond that your original reply was
incomplete and could have gotten the OP in trouble.

L.W.(ßill) ------ III wrote:

> I take your opinion for what it's worth, which was worthless for
> the OP!
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Roy J wrote:
>
>><Snipped babble>

Roy J

Quit trying to wiggle out of the fact that you give a flippant
answer to the orignal question that could have gotten the OP in
serious trouble. What I thought or knew was immaterial.

If you wish to continue this "discussion" in this public forum
you may. I will continue to repond that your original reply was
incomplete and could have gotten the OP in trouble.

L.W.(ßill) ------ III wrote:

> I take your opinion for what it's worth, which was worthless for
> the OP!
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Roy J wrote:
>
>><Snipped babble>

Roy J

I'm with Mike here. I'd certainly take a look at the caster. With
all the new parts, it should not go into DW unless SOMETHING is
wrong. I've usually found that when you get one of these kind of
problems, your assumption that something was done right doesn't
hold up. And that you don't find the flaw until you have looked
at if at four times. So maybe it's back to the rack, using a
crowbar on EVERYTHING.

Mike Romain wrote:

> He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly.
>
> The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed.
> He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in
> the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> CRWLR wrote:
>
>>Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes straighat
>>ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can turn on
>>a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant difference in
>>these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the
>>Caster angle.
>>
>>As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the
>>adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set during
>>manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle.
>>Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of
>>course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change
>>enough to become a player in DW.
>>
>>Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball joints,
>>and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be
>>about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint
>>should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit
>>different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than lesser
>>angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires willsearch
>>for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There is
>>an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn, or a
>>manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking stall.
>>Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if the
>>wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and
>>requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive itback
>>to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants to
>>go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
>>
>>In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so the
>>analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works pretty
>>well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for now.
>>
>>My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
>>
>>"Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net...
>>
>>>The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire test
>>
>>and
>>
>>>it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get the
>>>caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would be a
>>>player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off,
>>>wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other?
>>>
>>>It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link tothe
>>>tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt a
>>>little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and
>>
>>will
>>
>>>replace it as soon as I can find one.
>>>
>>>Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all together
>>>because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. But
>>>will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again.
>>>
>>>Thanks again,
>>>Terry.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
>>>news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
>>>
>>>>If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer
>>>
>>>would
>>>
>>>>be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I
>>>>described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been
>>>
>>>suggested
>>>
>>>>to correct me?)
>>>>
>>>>If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with
>>>
>>>looseness,
>>>
>>>>then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation
>>
>>test.
>>
>>>If
>>>
>>>>yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if
>>>
>>>the
>>>
>>>>DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.ea rthlink.net...
>>>>
>>>>>It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else
>>
>>on
>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new
>>>
>>>and
>>>
>>>>>tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends,
>>
>>drag
>>
>>>>>link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight.
>>
>>I
>>
>>>>just
>>>>
>>>>>put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
>>>>>
>>>>>I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens.
>>
>>I'll
>>
>>>>have
>>>>
>>>>>the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if
>>>>>needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that
>>>
>>>same
>>>
>>>>>damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought.
>>
>>If
>>
>>>>she
>>>>
>>>>>passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old
>>>>
>>>>steering
>>>>
>>>>>stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the
>>>>
>>>>drag
>>>>
>>>>>link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod
>>>
>>>instead
>>>
>>>>>since it is "closer" to the steering.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks for all the comments and info.
>>>>>
>>>>>Terry
>>>>>92YJ
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
>>>>>>Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for
>>>>>>every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a
>>>>>>while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the
>>>>>>NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to
>>>>>>REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or
>>>>>>tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some
>>>>>>front end work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'll second that diagnosis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW
>>>>>>experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the
>>>>
>>>>ball
>>>>
>>>>>>joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and
>>>
>>>it
>>>
>>>>>>takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same
>>
>>direction.
>>
>>>>>During
>>>>>
>>>>>>the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking
>>
>>for
>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>>front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where
>>>
>>>the
>>>
>>>>>>first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then
>>>>
>>>>heads
>>>>
>>>>>>back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because
>>
>>it
>>
>>>>has
>>>>
>>>>>>decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral
>>>
>>>downward
>>>
>>>>>from
>>>>>
>>>>>>there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable
>>
>>in
>>
>>>a
>>>
>>>>>>leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>idea
>>>>
>>>>>>is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it
>>
>>positions
>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>>spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment
>>
>>as
>>
>>>>much
>>>>
>>>>>>as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on
>>>
>>>your
>>>
>>>>>YJ
>>>>>
>>>>>>is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other
>>>
>>>issues.
>>>
>>>>>Ball
>>>>>
>>>>>>joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the
>>
>>one
>>
>>>>>that
>>>>>
>>>>>>you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious
>>>>>>consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the
>>>
>>>test
>>>
>>>>>for
>>>>>
>>>>>>a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the
>>>
>>>ground
>>>
>>>>>and
>>>>>
>>>>>>1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom,
>>>
>>>and
>>>
>>>>>2.)
>>>>>
>>>>>>use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in
>>>>
>>>>either
>>>>
>>>>>>of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel
>>>
>>>back
>>>
>>>>>and
>>>>>
>>>>>>forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>tie
>>>>
>>>>>>rod ends.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the
>>>
>>>tie
>>>
>>>>>rod
>>>>>
>>>>>>ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>>>steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball
>>>>
>>>>joints
>>>>
>>>>>>or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts
>>
>>and
>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>>steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only
>>>>
>>>>necessary
>>>>
>>>>>>(MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball
>>>>
>>>>joints
>>>>
>>>>>>don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>

Roy J

I'm with Mike here. I'd certainly take a look at the caster. With
all the new parts, it should not go into DW unless SOMETHING is
wrong. I've usually found that when you get one of these kind of
problems, your assumption that something was done right doesn't
hold up. And that you don't find the flaw until you have looked
at if at four times. So maybe it's back to the rack, using a
crowbar on EVERYTHING.

Mike Romain wrote:

> He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly.
>
> The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed.
> He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in
> the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> CRWLR wrote:
>
>>Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes straighat
>>ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can turn on
>>a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant difference in
>>these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the
>>Caster angle.
>>
>>As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the
>>adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set during
>>manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle.
>>Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of
>>course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change
>>enough to become a player in DW.
>>
>>Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball joints,
>>and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be
>>about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint
>>should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit
>>different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than lesser
>>angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires willsearch
>>for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There is
>>an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn, or a
>>manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking stall.
>>Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if the
>>wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and
>>requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive itback
>>to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants to
>>go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
>>
>>In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so the
>>analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works pretty
>>well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for now.
>>
>>My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
>>
>>"Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net...
>>
>>>The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire test
>>
>>and
>>
>>>it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get the
>>>caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would be a
>>>player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off,
>>>wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other?
>>>
>>>It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link tothe
>>>tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt a
>>>little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and
>>
>>will
>>
>>>replace it as soon as I can find one.
>>>
>>>Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all together
>>>because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. But
>>>will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again.
>>>
>>>Thanks again,
>>>Terry.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
>>>news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
>>>
>>>>If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer
>>>
>>>would
>>>
>>>>be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I
>>>>described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been
>>>
>>>suggested
>>>
>>>>to correct me?)
>>>>
>>>>If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with
>>>
>>>looseness,
>>>
>>>>then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation
>>
>>test.
>>
>>>If
>>>
>>>>yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if
>>>
>>>the
>>>
>>>>DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.ea rthlink.net...
>>>>
>>>>>It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else
>>
>>on
>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new
>>>
>>>and
>>>
>>>>>tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends,
>>
>>drag
>>
>>>>>link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight.
>>
>>I
>>
>>>>just
>>>>
>>>>>put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
>>>>>
>>>>>I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens.
>>
>>I'll
>>
>>>>have
>>>>
>>>>>the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if
>>>>>needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that
>>>
>>>same
>>>
>>>>>damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought.
>>
>>If
>>
>>>>she
>>>>
>>>>>passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old
>>>>
>>>>steering
>>>>
>>>>>stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the
>>>>
>>>>drag
>>>>
>>>>>link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod
>>>
>>>instead
>>>
>>>>>since it is "closer" to the steering.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks for all the comments and info.
>>>>>
>>>>>Terry
>>>>>92YJ
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
>>>>>>Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for
>>>>>>every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a
>>>>>>while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the
>>>>>>NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to
>>>>>>REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or
>>>>>>tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some
>>>>>>front end work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'll second that diagnosis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW
>>>>>>experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the
>>>>
>>>>ball
>>>>
>>>>>>joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and
>>>
>>>it
>>>
>>>>>>takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same
>>
>>direction.
>>
>>>>>During
>>>>>
>>>>>>the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking
>>
>>for
>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>>front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where
>>>
>>>the
>>>
>>>>>>first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then
>>>>
>>>>heads
>>>>
>>>>>>back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because
>>
>>it
>>
>>>>has
>>>>
>>>>>>decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral
>>>
>>>downward
>>>
>>>>>from
>>>>>
>>>>>>there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable
>>
>>in
>>
>>>a
>>>
>>>>>>leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>idea
>>>>
>>>>>>is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it
>>
>>positions
>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>>spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment
>>
>>as
>>
>>>>much
>>>>
>>>>>>as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on
>>>
>>>your
>>>
>>>>>YJ
>>>>>
>>>>>>is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other
>>>
>>>issues.
>>>
>>>>>Ball
>>>>>
>>>>>>joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the
>>
>>one
>>
>>>>>that
>>>>>
>>>>>>you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious
>>>>>>consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the
>>>
>>>test
>>>
>>>>>for
>>>>>
>>>>>>a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the
>>>
>>>ground
>>>
>>>>>and
>>>>>
>>>>>>1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom,
>>>
>>>and
>>>
>>>>>2.)
>>>>>
>>>>>>use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in
>>>>
>>>>either
>>>>
>>>>>>of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel
>>>
>>>back
>>>
>>>>>and
>>>>>
>>>>>>forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>tie
>>>>
>>>>>>rod ends.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the
>>>
>>>tie
>>>
>>>>>rod
>>>>>
>>>>>>ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>>>steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball
>>>>
>>>>joints
>>>>
>>>>>>or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts
>>
>>and
>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>>steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only
>>>>
>>>>necessary
>>>>
>>>>>>(MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball
>>>>
>>>>joints
>>>>
>>>>>>don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>

Roy J

I'm with Mike here. I'd certainly take a look at the caster. With
all the new parts, it should not go into DW unless SOMETHING is
wrong. I've usually found that when you get one of these kind of
problems, your assumption that something was done right doesn't
hold up. And that you don't find the flaw until you have looked
at if at four times. So maybe it's back to the rack, using a
crowbar on EVERYTHING.

Mike Romain wrote:

> He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly.
>
> The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just guessed.
> He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in
> the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> CRWLR wrote:
>
>>Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes straighat
>>ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can turn on
>>a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant difference in
>>these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to the
>>Caster angle.
>>
>>As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in the
>>adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set during
>>manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster angle.
>>Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be right. Of
>>course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can change
>>enough to become a player in DW.
>>
>>Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball joints,
>>and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should be
>>about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball joint
>>should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little bit
>>different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than lesser
>>angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires willsearch
>>for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms. There is
>>an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a Uturn, or a
>>manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking stall.
>>Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see if the
>>wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode and
>>requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive itback
>>to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it wants to
>>go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
>>
>>In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play, so the
>>analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works pretty
>>well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works for now.
>>
>>My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
>>
>>"Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net...
>>
>>>The ball joints appear to be good. I did the push-pull-raised-tire test
>>
>>and
>>
>>>it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll get the
>>>caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster would be a
>>>player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is off,
>>>wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the other?
>>>
>>>It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag link tothe
>>>tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I felt a
>>>little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it, and
>>
>>will
>>
>>>replace it as soon as I can find one.
>>>
>>>Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all together
>>>because real estate up front is a premium right now with the Dana60. But
>>>will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test again.
>>>
>>>Thanks again,
>>>Terry.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
>>>news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
>>>
>>>>If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering stabalizer
>>>
>>>would
>>>
>>>>be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described? (If I
>>>>described something incorrectly, did you try what might have been
>>>
>>>suggested
>>>
>>>>to correct me?)
>>>>
>>>>If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with
>>>
>>>looseness,
>>>
>>>>then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a confirmation
>>
>>test.
>>
>>>If
>>>
>>>>yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to see if
>>>
>>>the
>>>
>>>>DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test. Taking
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn bushings.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.ea rthlink.net...
>>>>
>>>>>It very well might be the steering stabilizer because everything else
>>
>>on
>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>front is new. All the steering components and entire front end is new
>>>
>>>and
>>>
>>>>>tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod & ends,
>>
>>drag
>>
>>>>>link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and tight.
>>
>>I
>>
>>>>just
>>>>
>>>>>put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
>>>>>
>>>>>I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what happens.
>>
>>I'll
>>
>>>>have
>>>>
>>>>>the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim it up if
>>>>>needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW in that
>>>
>>>same
>>>
>>>>>damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first thought.
>>
>>If
>>
>>>>she
>>>>
>>>>>passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the old
>>>>
>>>>steering
>>>>
>>>>>stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the frame to the
>>>>
>>>>drag
>>>>
>>>>>link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie rod
>>>
>>>instead
>>>
>>>>>since it is "closer" to the steering.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks for all the comments and info.
>>>>>
>>>>>Terry
>>>>>92YJ
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
>>>>>>Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier" for
>>>>>>every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem for a
>>>>>>while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make the
>>>>>>NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants to
>>>>>>REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball joint or
>>>>>>tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for some
>>>>>>front end work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'll second that diagnosis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and no DW
>>>>>>experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I suspect the
>>>>
>>>>ball
>>>>
>>>>>>joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight ahead, and
>>>
>>>it
>>>
>>>>>>takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same
>>
>>direction.
>>
>>>>>During
>>>>>
>>>>>>the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts looking
>>
>>for
>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>>front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up to where
>>>
>>>the
>>>
>>>>>>first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second tire then
>>>>
>>>>heads
>>>>
>>>>>>back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore because
>>
>>it
>>
>>>>has
>>>>
>>>>>>decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things spiral
>>>
>>>downward
>>>
>>>>>from
>>>>>
>>>>>>there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not adjustable
>>
>>in
>>
>>>a
>>>
>>>>>>leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by shims, but
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>idea
>>>>
>>>>>>is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it
>>
>>positions
>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>>spring perches, and the angle normally does not require adjustment
>>
>>as
>>
>>>>much
>>>>
>>>>>>as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster angle on
>>>
>>>your
>>>
>>>>>YJ
>>>>>
>>>>>>is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the other
>>>
>>>issues.
>>>
>>>>>Ball
>>>>>
>>>>>>joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint is the
>>
>>one
>>
>>>>>that
>>>>>
>>>>>>you will most likely need to replace, and you should give serious
>>>>>>consideration to replacing both of them even if only one passes the
>>>
>>>test
>>>
>>>>>for
>>>>>
>>>>>>a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire off the
>>>
>>>ground
>>>
>>>>>and
>>>>>
>>>>>>1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the bottom,
>>>
>>>and
>>>
>>>>>2.)
>>>>>
>>>>>>use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not move in
>>>>
>>>>either
>>>>
>>>>>>of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering wheel
>>>
>>>back
>>>
>>>>>and
>>>>>
>>>>>>forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no play in
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>tie
>>>>
>>>>>>rod ends.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and all of the
>>>
>>>tie
>>>
>>>>>rod
>>>>>
>>>>>>ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with replacing
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>>>steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of the ball
>>>>
>>>>joints
>>>>
>>>>>>or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all like-parts
>>
>>and
>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>>steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is only
>>>>
>>>>necessary
>>>>
>>>>>>(MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The upper ball
>>>>
>>>>joints
>>>>
>>>>>>don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>

Terry Jeffrey

Thanks Mike. You might be right in that the caster wasn't set correctly
when built. I certainly intend to find out this week. Being built by
Dynatrac, though, it's hard to believe it isn't right. But one way to find
out - get it checked.

About the track bar and steering stabilizer. It's amazing how one hears so
many conflicting suggestions from other Jeeping individuals and mechanics.
But I realize what works or eliminates a problem for one might not
necessarily be the solution for another. Along with you and another
experienced Jeeping fellow I know and trust says without a doubt, put the
track bar back on, which I intend to do today. One thing for sure - I
didn't experience the DW until I discovered the track bar was loose on the
frame side mount. Instead of removing the loose track bar and zeroing in on
the stabilizer and/or caster as the culprit, my first (and easiest) DW
"test" probably should have been to tighten the track bar back up and go hit
that same bumpy road again to see if the DW was gone. I'll comment in the
thread how this test goes this evening (only if I get around to doing it
today -- I busted up my left hand some working on the house yesterday, and
swollen like it is at the moment isn't feeling up to the task!).

Thank again. I appreciate your insight and knowledge.

Terry.




"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:4038D1A5.86262FC0@sympatico.ca...
> When I see one thing wrong on a 'professionally' or backyard built item,
> that implies the rest is shaky at best.
>
> Death wobble doesn't just happen!
>
> Something is either broken or not built correctly.
>
> You say nothing is broken, then that only leaves me with one other
> conclusion, it is built wrong.
>
> I mean really. That is far more than just a 'guess'.
>
> Mike
>
> Terry Jeffrey wrote:
> >
> > No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by
Dynatrac.
> > Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is
alright,
> > but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people who
have
> > placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have it.
The
> > reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up front
with
> > the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the
track
> > bar. The track bar is going back on today.
> >
> > If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it. I've
> > been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when it
comes
> > to my rig.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Terry.
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca...
> > > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly.
> > >
> > > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just
guessed.
> > > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in
> > > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > >
> > > CRWLR wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes
> > straighat
> > > > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can
> > turn on
> > > > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant
> > difference in
> > > > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to
the
> > > > Caster angle.
> > > >
> > > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in
the
> > > > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set
> > during
> > > > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster
angle.
> > > > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be
right. Of
> > > > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can
change
> > > > enough to become a player in DW.
> > > >
> > > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball
> > joints,
> > > > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should
be
> > > > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball
joint
> > > > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little
bit
> > > > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than
> > lesser
> > > > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires
will
> > search
> > > > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms.
There
> > is
> > > > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a
Uturn,
> > or a
> > > > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking
> > stall.
> > > > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see
if
> > the
> > > > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode
and
> > > > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive
it
> > back
> > > > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it
wants
> > to
> > > > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
> > > >
> > > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play,
so
> > the
> > > > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works
> > pretty
> > > > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works
for
> > now.
> > > >
> > > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
> > > >
> > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > > > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the
push-pull-raised-tire
> > test
> > > > and
> > > > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll
get
> > the
> > > > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster
would
> > be a
> > > > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is
off,
> > > > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the
other?
> > > > >
> > > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag
link to
> > the
> > > > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I
felt
> > a
> > > > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it,
and
> > > > will
> > > > > replace it as soon as I can find one.
> > > > >
> > > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all
> > together
> > > > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the
Dana60.
> > But
> > > > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test
again.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks again,
> > > > > Terry.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > > > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering
> > stabalizer
> > > > > would
> > > > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described?
(If I
> > > > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have
been
> > > > > suggested
> > > > > > to correct me?)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with
> > > > > looseness,
> > > > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a
confirmation
> > > > test.
> > > > > If
> > > > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to
see
> > if
> > > > > the
> > > > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test.
> > Taking
> > > > the
> > > > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn
> > bushings.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because
everything
> > else
> > > > on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front
end is
> > new
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod &
> > ends,
> > > > drag
> > > > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and
> > tight.
> > > > I
> > > > > > just
> > > > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what
happens.
> > > > I'll
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim
it
> > up if
> > > > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW
in
> > that
> > > > > same
> > > > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first
> > thought.
> > > > If
> > > > > > she
> > > > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the
old
> > > > > > steering
> > > > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the
frame to
> > the
> > > > > > drag
> > > > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie
rod
> > > > > instead
> > > > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Terry
> > > > > > > 92YJ
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier"
for
> > > > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem
for a
> > > > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make
the
> > > > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants
to
> > > > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball
joint or
> > > > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for
some
> > > > > > > > front end work.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and
no
> > DW
> > > > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I
suspect
> > the
> > > > > > ball
> > > > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight
ahead,
> > and
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same
> > > > direction.
> > > > > > > During
> > > > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts
> > looking
> > > > for
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up
to
> > where
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second
tire
> > then
> > > > > > heads
> > > > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore
> > because
> > > > it
> > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things
spiral
> > > > > downward
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > there.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not
> > adjustable
> > > > in
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by
shims,
> > but
> > > > the
> > > > > > idea
> > > > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it
> > > > positions
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require
> > adjustment
> > > > as
> > > > > > much
> > > > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster
angle
> > on
> > > > > your
> > > > > > > YJ
> > > > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the
other
> > > > > issues.
> > > > > > > Ball
> > > > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint
is
> > the
> > > > one
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give
> > serious
> > > > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one
passes
> > the
> > > > > test
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire
off
> > the
> > > > > ground
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the
> > bottom,
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > 2.)
> > > > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not
move
> > in
> > > > > > either
> > > > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering
> > wheel
> > > > > back
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no
play
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > > tie
> > > > > > > > rod ends.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and
all of
> > the
> > > > > tie
> > > > > > > rod
> > > > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with
> > replacing
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of
the
> > ball
> > > > > > joints
> > > > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all
> > like-parts
> > > > and
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is
only
> > > > > > necessary
> > > > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The
upper
> > ball
> > > > > > joints
> > > > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >

Terry Jeffrey

Thanks Mike. You might be right in that the caster wasn't set correctly
when built. I certainly intend to find out this week. Being built by
Dynatrac, though, it's hard to believe it isn't right. But one way to find
out - get it checked.

About the track bar and steering stabilizer. It's amazing how one hears so
many conflicting suggestions from other Jeeping individuals and mechanics.
But I realize what works or eliminates a problem for one might not
necessarily be the solution for another. Along with you and another
experienced Jeeping fellow I know and trust says without a doubt, put the
track bar back on, which I intend to do today. One thing for sure - I
didn't experience the DW until I discovered the track bar was loose on the
frame side mount. Instead of removing the loose track bar and zeroing in on
the stabilizer and/or caster as the culprit, my first (and easiest) DW
"test" probably should have been to tighten the track bar back up and go hit
that same bumpy road again to see if the DW was gone. I'll comment in the
thread how this test goes this evening (only if I get around to doing it
today -- I busted up my left hand some working on the house yesterday, and
swollen like it is at the moment isn't feeling up to the task!).

Thank again. I appreciate your insight and knowledge.

Terry.




"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:4038D1A5.86262FC0@sympatico.ca...
> When I see one thing wrong on a 'professionally' or backyard built item,
> that implies the rest is shaky at best.
>
> Death wobble doesn't just happen!
>
> Something is either broken or not built correctly.
>
> You say nothing is broken, then that only leaves me with one other
> conclusion, it is built wrong.
>
> I mean really. That is far more than just a 'guess'.
>
> Mike
>
> Terry Jeffrey wrote:
> >
> > No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by
Dynatrac.
> > Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is
alright,
> > but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people who
have
> > placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have it.
The
> > reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up front
with
> > the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the
track
> > bar. The track bar is going back on today.
> >
> > If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it. I've
> > been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when it
comes
> > to my rig.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Terry.
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca...
> > > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built properly.
> > >
> > > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just
guessed.
> > > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on in
> > > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > >
> > > CRWLR wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes
> > straighat
> > > > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike can
> > turn on
> > > > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant
> > difference in
> > > > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is similar to
the
> > > > Caster angle.
> > > >
> > > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role in
the
> > > > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much set
> > during
> > > > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster
angle.
> > > > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be
right. Of
> > > > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can
change
> > > > enough to become a player in DW.
> > > >
> > > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower ball
> > joints,
> > > > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle should
be
> > > > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper ball
joint
> > > > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a little
bit
> > > > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable than
> > lesser
> > > > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires
will
> > search
> > > > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW symptoms.
There
> > is
> > > > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a
Uturn,
> > or a
> > > > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a parking
> > stall.
> > > > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and see
if
> > the
> > > > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning Mode
and
> > > > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to drive
it
> > back
> > > > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if it
wants
> > to
> > > > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
> > > >
> > > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at play,
so
> > the
> > > > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it works
> > pretty
> > > > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it works
for
> > now.
> > > >
> > > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
> > > >
> > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > > > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the
push-pull-raised-tire
> > test
> > > > and
> > > > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed. I'll
get
> > the
> > > > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why caster
would
> > be a
> > > > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle is
off,
> > > > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or the
other?
> > > > >
> > > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag
link to
> > the
> > > > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought I
felt
> > a
> > > > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing it,
and
> > > > will
> > > > > replace it as soon as I can find one.
> > > > >
> > > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all
> > together
> > > > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the
Dana60.
> > But
> > > > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test
again.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks again,
> > > > > Terry.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > > > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering
> > stabalizer
> > > > > would
> > > > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I described?
(If I
> > > > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have
been
> > > > > suggested
> > > > > > to correct me?)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem with
> > > > > looseness,
> > > > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a
confirmation
> > > > test.
> > > > > If
> > > > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar on to
see
> > if
> > > > > the
> > > > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic test.
> > Taking
> > > > the
> > > > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had worn
> > bushings.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because
everything
> > else
> > > > on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire front
end is
> > new
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie rod &
> > ends,
> > > > drag
> > > > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed and
> > tight.
> > > > I
> > > > > > just
> > > > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what
happens.
> > > > I'll
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and shim
it
> > up if
> > > > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the DW
in
> > that
> > > > > same
> > > > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first
> > thought.
> > > > If
> > > > > > she
> > > > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on the
old
> > > > > > steering
> > > > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the
frame to
> > the
> > > > > > drag
> > > > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the tie
rod
> > > > > instead
> > > > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Terry
> > > > > > > 92YJ
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering stabilzier"
for
> > > > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the problem
for a
> > > > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse, make
the
> > > > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and wants
to
> > > > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball
joint or
> > > > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due for
some
> > > > > > > > front end work.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar and
no
> > DW
> > > > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I
suspect
> > the
> > > > > > ball
> > > > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near end-life.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of straight
ahead,
> > and
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the same
> > > > direction.
> > > > > > > During
> > > > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and starts
> > looking
> > > > for
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought up
to
> > where
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The second
tire
> > then
> > > > > > heads
> > > > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there anymore
> > because
> > > > it
> > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things
spiral
> > > > > downward
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > there.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not
> > adjustable
> > > > in
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by
shims,
> > but
> > > > the
> > > > > > idea
> > > > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the way it
> > > > positions
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require
> > adjustment
> > > > as
> > > > > > much
> > > > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the caster
angle
> > on
> > > > > your
> > > > > > > YJ
> > > > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of the
other
> > > > > issues.
> > > > > > > Ball
> > > > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball Joint
is
> > the
> > > > one
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should give
> > serious
> > > > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one
passes
> > the
> > > > > test
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front tire
off
> > the
> > > > > ground
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and the
> > bottom,
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > 2.)
> > > > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought not
move
> > in
> > > > > > either
> > > > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the steering
> > wheel
> > > > > back
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be no
play
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > > tie
> > > > > > > > rod ends.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests and
all of
> > the
> > > > > tie
> > > > > > > rod
> > > > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with
> > replacing
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any of
the
> > ball
> > > > > > joints
> > > > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all
> > like-parts
> > > > and
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it is
only
> > > > > > necessary
> > > > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The
upper
> > ball
> > > > > > joints
> > > > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very often.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >