A case of death wobble today
#131
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Re: A case of death wobble today
Well, if the caster is off I'll find out this week. I agree that perhaps
the track bar has been masking the caster problem all along. No confusion
about the track bar and anti-sway bar. I have one of those on too (with the
disconnects).
I know what you're saying about Mike. He offers great information all the
time and we all appreciate it. I certainly do. His info has helped me on
more than one occasion. Thanks Mike!! I don't post too often in here, but
hang out alot for the information. His (and your) posts have always been
extremely helpful. I meant no offense to Mike or anybody else, just
conversing as well as I know how over this darn computer. ;). Also know
that I'm no expert on certain Jeepin' subjects (that's why I hang out
here!), but I'm no greenhorn either and do keep intimately familiar with my
old Jeep and how she handles, runs, etc, and don't take shortcuts when it
comes to building her. It's a bad habit I can't seem to shake!
Thanks,
Terry.
"CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
news:103hpjbpf9ngj37@corp.supernews.com...
> On another note, you keep using the term DW, and you seem to tie the
> experience in with trackbar problems. The only influence the track bar
will
> have is on holding the entire front end in place. DW, by definition, is a
> problem where the TIRES are working against each other and they set up a
> harmonic vibration that we call DW.
>
> The trackbar ought not play a role in this sort of problem.
>
> But, what if the spring bushings or some other similar part was not
working
> properly? The track bar would serve to hold the front end together and
mask
> such a problem. When the trackbar had finally had enough of this abuse,
all
> hell would break loose, and we might describe the experience as DW.
>
> I just wanted to throw that out because you keep saying that all of
steering
> parts we have been talking about are new and serviceable. Perhaps these
> parts are exactly as you said, and the trackbar does solve the problem. My
> guess is that the trackbar is, at best, masking the real problem because a
> trackbar ought not play any role whatsoever in DW.
>
> BTW,
> Lighten up on Mike. He is just exploring the possibilities. Of the
> respondants on this board, he gives the most consistantly objective views,
> and he is right far more often than he is wrong.
>
>
>
>
>
> "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:9T4_b.3604$yZ1.371@newsread2.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > Thanks Mike. You might be right in that the caster wasn't set correctly
> > when built. I certainly intend to find out this week. Being built by
> > Dynatrac, though, it's hard to believe it isn't right. But one way to
> find
> > out - get it checked.
> >
> > About the track bar and steering stabilizer. It's amazing how one hears
> so
> > many conflicting suggestions from other Jeeping individuals and
mechanics.
> > But I realize what works or eliminates a problem for one might not
> > necessarily be the solution for another. Along with you and another
> > experienced Jeeping fellow I know and trust says without a doubt, put
the
> > track bar back on, which I intend to do today. One thing for sure - I
> > didn't experience the DW until I discovered the track bar was loose on
the
> > frame side mount. Instead of removing the loose track bar and zeroing
in
> on
> > the stabilizer and/or caster as the culprit, my first (and easiest) DW
> > "test" probably should have been to tighten the track bar back up and go
> hit
> > that same bumpy road again to see if the DW was gone. I'll comment in
the
> > thread how this test goes this evening (only if I get around to doing it
> > today -- I busted up my left hand some working on the house yesterday,
and
> > swollen like it is at the moment isn't feeling up to the task!).
> >
> > Thank again. I appreciate your insight and knowledge.
> >
> > Terry.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:4038D1A5.86262FC0@sympatico.ca...
> > > When I see one thing wrong on a 'professionally' or backyard built
item,
> > > that implies the rest is shaky at best.
> > >
> > > Death wobble doesn't just happen!
> > >
> > > Something is either broken or not built correctly.
> > >
> > > You say nothing is broken, then that only leaves me with one other
> > > conclusion, it is built wrong.
> > >
> > > I mean really. That is far more than just a 'guess'.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > Terry Jeffrey wrote:
> > > >
> > > > No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by
> > Dynatrac.
> > > > Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is
> > alright,
> > > > but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people
> who
> > have
> > > > placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have
it.
> > The
> > > > reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up
front
> > with
> > > > the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the
> > track
> > > > bar. The track bar is going back on today.
> > > >
> > > > If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it.
> I've
> > > > been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when
it
> > comes
> > > > to my rig.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Terry.
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built
properly.
> > > > >
> > > > > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just
> > guessed.
> > > > > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on
> in
> > > > > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > >
> > > > > CRWLR wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes
> > > > straighat
> > > > > > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike
> can
> > > > turn on
> > > > > > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant
> > > > difference in
> > > > > > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is
similar
> to
> > the
> > > > > > Caster angle.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role
in
> > the
> > > > > > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much
> set
> > > > during
> > > > > > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster
> > angle.
> > > > > > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be
> > right. Of
> > > > > > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can
> > change
> > > > > > enough to become a player in DW.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower
> ball
> > > > joints,
> > > > > > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle
> should
> > be
> > > > > > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper
ball
> > joint
> > > > > > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a
little
> > bit
> > > > > > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable
> than
> > > > lesser
> > > > > > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires
> > will
> > > > search
> > > > > > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW
symptoms.
> > There
> > > > is
> > > > > > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a
> > Uturn,
> > > > or a
> > > > > > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a
> parking
> > > > stall.
> > > > > > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and
> see
> > if
> > > > the
> > > > > > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning
> Mode
> > and
> > > > > > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to
> drive
> > it
> > > > back
> > > > > > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if
it
> > wants
> > > > to
> > > > > > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at
play,
> > so
> > > > the
> > > > > > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it
works
> > > > pretty
> > > > > > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it
works
> > for
> > > > now.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > > > > > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the
> > push-pull-raised-tire
> > > > test
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed.
I'll
> > get
> > > > the
> > > > > > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why
caster
> > would
> > > > be a
> > > > > > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle
is
> > off,
> > > > > > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or
the
> > other?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag
> > link to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought
I
> > felt
> > > > a
> > > > > > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing
> it,
> > and
> > > > > > will
> > > > > > > replace it as soon as I can find one.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all
> > > > together
> > > > > > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the
> > Dana60.
> > > > But
> > > > > > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test
> > again.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks again,
> > > > > > > Terry.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering
> > > > stabalizer
> > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I
described?
> > (If I
> > > > > > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have
> > been
> > > > > > > suggested
> > > > > > > > to correct me?)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem
> with
> > > > > > > looseness,
> > > > > > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a
> > confirmation
> > > > > > test.
> > > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar
on
> to
> > see
> > > > if
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic
> test.
> > > > Taking
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had
worn
> > > > bushings.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > > > > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because
> > everything
> > > > else
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire
front
> > end is
> > > > new
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie
rod
> &
> > > > ends,
> > > > > > drag
> > > > > > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed
> and
> > > > tight.
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what
> > happens.
> > > > > > I'll
> > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and
> shim
> > it
> > > > up if
> > > > > > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the
> DW
> > in
> > > > that
> > > > > > > same
> > > > > > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first
> > > > thought.
> > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > she
> > > > > > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on
> the
> > old
> > > > > > > > steering
> > > > > > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the
> > frame to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > drag
> > > > > > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the
> tie
> > rod
> > > > > > > instead
> > > > > > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Terry
> > > > > > > > > 92YJ
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > > > > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering
> stabilzier"
> > for
> > > > > > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the
problem
> > for a
> > > > > > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse,
> make
> > the
> > > > > > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and
> wants
> > to
> > > > > > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball
> > joint or
> > > > > > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due
for
> > some
> > > > > > > > > > front end work.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar
> and
> > no
> > > > DW
> > > > > > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I
> > suspect
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > ball
> > > > > > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near
end-life.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of
straight
> > ahead,
> > > > and
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the
same
> > > > > > direction.
> > > > > > > > > During
> > > > > > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and
starts
> > > > looking
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought
up
> > to
> > > > where
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The
second
> > tire
> > > > then
> > > > > > > > heads
> > > > > > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there
anymore
> > > > because
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things
> > spiral
> > > > > > > downward
> > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > there.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not
> > > > adjustable
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by
> > shims,
> > > > but
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > idea
> > > > > > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the
way
> it
> > > > > > positions
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require
> > > > adjustment
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > much
> > > > > > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the
caster
> > angle
> > > > on
> > > > > > > your
> > > > > > > > > YJ
> > > > > > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of
the
> > other
> > > > > > > issues.
> > > > > > > > > Ball
> > > > > > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball
> Joint
> > is
> > > > the
> > > > > > one
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should
give
> > > > serious
> > > > > > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one
> > passes
> > > > the
> > > > > > > test
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front
tire
> > off
> > > > the
> > > > > > > ground
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and
> the
> > > > bottom,
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > 2.)
> > > > > > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought
> not
> > move
> > > > in
> > > > > > > > either
> > > > > > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the
> steering
> > > > wheel
> > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be
no
> > play
> > > > in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > tie
> > > > > > > > > > rod ends.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests
and
> > all of
> > > > the
> > > > > > > tie
> > > > > > > > > rod
> > > > > > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with
> > > > replacing
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any
of
> > the
> > > > ball
> > > > > > > > joints
> > > > > > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all
> > > > like-parts
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it
is
> > only
> > > > > > > > necessary
> > > > > > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The
> > upper
> > > > ball
> > > > > > > > joints
> > > > > > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very
often.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> >
> >
>
>
the track bar has been masking the caster problem all along. No confusion
about the track bar and anti-sway bar. I have one of those on too (with the
disconnects).
I know what you're saying about Mike. He offers great information all the
time and we all appreciate it. I certainly do. His info has helped me on
more than one occasion. Thanks Mike!! I don't post too often in here, but
hang out alot for the information. His (and your) posts have always been
extremely helpful. I meant no offense to Mike or anybody else, just
conversing as well as I know how over this darn computer. ;). Also know
that I'm no expert on certain Jeepin' subjects (that's why I hang out
here!), but I'm no greenhorn either and do keep intimately familiar with my
old Jeep and how she handles, runs, etc, and don't take shortcuts when it
comes to building her. It's a bad habit I can't seem to shake!
Thanks,
Terry.
"CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
news:103hpjbpf9ngj37@corp.supernews.com...
> On another note, you keep using the term DW, and you seem to tie the
> experience in with trackbar problems. The only influence the track bar
will
> have is on holding the entire front end in place. DW, by definition, is a
> problem where the TIRES are working against each other and they set up a
> harmonic vibration that we call DW.
>
> The trackbar ought not play a role in this sort of problem.
>
> But, what if the spring bushings or some other similar part was not
working
> properly? The track bar would serve to hold the front end together and
mask
> such a problem. When the trackbar had finally had enough of this abuse,
all
> hell would break loose, and we might describe the experience as DW.
>
> I just wanted to throw that out because you keep saying that all of
steering
> parts we have been talking about are new and serviceable. Perhaps these
> parts are exactly as you said, and the trackbar does solve the problem. My
> guess is that the trackbar is, at best, masking the real problem because a
> trackbar ought not play any role whatsoever in DW.
>
> BTW,
> Lighten up on Mike. He is just exploring the possibilities. Of the
> respondants on this board, he gives the most consistantly objective views,
> and he is right far more often than he is wrong.
>
>
>
>
>
> "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:9T4_b.3604$yZ1.371@newsread2.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > Thanks Mike. You might be right in that the caster wasn't set correctly
> > when built. I certainly intend to find out this week. Being built by
> > Dynatrac, though, it's hard to believe it isn't right. But one way to
> find
> > out - get it checked.
> >
> > About the track bar and steering stabilizer. It's amazing how one hears
> so
> > many conflicting suggestions from other Jeeping individuals and
mechanics.
> > But I realize what works or eliminates a problem for one might not
> > necessarily be the solution for another. Along with you and another
> > experienced Jeeping fellow I know and trust says without a doubt, put
the
> > track bar back on, which I intend to do today. One thing for sure - I
> > didn't experience the DW until I discovered the track bar was loose on
the
> > frame side mount. Instead of removing the loose track bar and zeroing
in
> on
> > the stabilizer and/or caster as the culprit, my first (and easiest) DW
> > "test" probably should have been to tighten the track bar back up and go
> hit
> > that same bumpy road again to see if the DW was gone. I'll comment in
the
> > thread how this test goes this evening (only if I get around to doing it
> > today -- I busted up my left hand some working on the house yesterday,
and
> > swollen like it is at the moment isn't feeling up to the task!).
> >
> > Thank again. I appreciate your insight and knowledge.
> >
> > Terry.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:4038D1A5.86262FC0@sympatico.ca...
> > > When I see one thing wrong on a 'professionally' or backyard built
item,
> > > that implies the rest is shaky at best.
> > >
> > > Death wobble doesn't just happen!
> > >
> > > Something is either broken or not built correctly.
> > >
> > > You say nothing is broken, then that only leaves me with one other
> > > conclusion, it is built wrong.
> > >
> > > I mean really. That is far more than just a 'guess'.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > Terry Jeffrey wrote:
> > > >
> > > > No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by
> > Dynatrac.
> > > > Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is
> > alright,
> > > > but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people
> who
> > have
> > > > placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have
it.
> > The
> > > > reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up
front
> > with
> > > > the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the
> > track
> > > > bar. The track bar is going back on today.
> > > >
> > > > If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it.
> I've
> > > > been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when
it
> > comes
> > > > to my rig.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Terry.
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built
properly.
> > > > >
> > > > > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just
> > guessed.
> > > > > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on
> in
> > > > > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > >
> > > > > CRWLR wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes
> > > > straighat
> > > > > > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike
> can
> > > > turn on
> > > > > > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant
> > > > difference in
> > > > > > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is
similar
> to
> > the
> > > > > > Caster angle.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role
in
> > the
> > > > > > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much
> set
> > > > during
> > > > > > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster
> > angle.
> > > > > > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be
> > right. Of
> > > > > > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can
> > change
> > > > > > enough to become a player in DW.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower
> ball
> > > > joints,
> > > > > > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle
> should
> > be
> > > > > > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper
ball
> > joint
> > > > > > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a
little
> > bit
> > > > > > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable
> than
> > > > lesser
> > > > > > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires
> > will
> > > > search
> > > > > > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW
symptoms.
> > There
> > > > is
> > > > > > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a
> > Uturn,
> > > > or a
> > > > > > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a
> parking
> > > > stall.
> > > > > > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and
> see
> > if
> > > > the
> > > > > > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning
> Mode
> > and
> > > > > > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to
> drive
> > it
> > > > back
> > > > > > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if
it
> > wants
> > > > to
> > > > > > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at
play,
> > so
> > > > the
> > > > > > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it
works
> > > > pretty
> > > > > > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it
works
> > for
> > > > now.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > > > > > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the
> > push-pull-raised-tire
> > > > test
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed.
I'll
> > get
> > > > the
> > > > > > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why
caster
> > would
> > > > be a
> > > > > > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle
is
> > off,
> > > > > > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or
the
> > other?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag
> > link to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought
I
> > felt
> > > > a
> > > > > > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing
> it,
> > and
> > > > > > will
> > > > > > > replace it as soon as I can find one.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all
> > > > together
> > > > > > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the
> > Dana60.
> > > > But
> > > > > > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test
> > again.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks again,
> > > > > > > Terry.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering
> > > > stabalizer
> > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I
described?
> > (If I
> > > > > > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have
> > been
> > > > > > > suggested
> > > > > > > > to correct me?)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem
> with
> > > > > > > looseness,
> > > > > > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a
> > confirmation
> > > > > > test.
> > > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar
on
> to
> > see
> > > > if
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic
> test.
> > > > Taking
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had
worn
> > > > bushings.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > > > > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because
> > everything
> > > > else
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire
front
> > end is
> > > > new
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie
rod
> &
> > > > ends,
> > > > > > drag
> > > > > > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed
> and
> > > > tight.
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what
> > happens.
> > > > > > I'll
> > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and
> shim
> > it
> > > > up if
> > > > > > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the
> DW
> > in
> > > > that
> > > > > > > same
> > > > > > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first
> > > > thought.
> > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > she
> > > > > > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on
> the
> > old
> > > > > > > > steering
> > > > > > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the
> > frame to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > drag
> > > > > > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the
> tie
> > rod
> > > > > > > instead
> > > > > > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Terry
> > > > > > > > > 92YJ
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > > > > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering
> stabilzier"
> > for
> > > > > > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the
problem
> > for a
> > > > > > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse,
> make
> > the
> > > > > > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and
> wants
> > to
> > > > > > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball
> > joint or
> > > > > > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due
for
> > some
> > > > > > > > > > front end work.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar
> and
> > no
> > > > DW
> > > > > > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I
> > suspect
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > ball
> > > > > > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near
end-life.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of
straight
> > ahead,
> > > > and
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the
same
> > > > > > direction.
> > > > > > > > > During
> > > > > > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and
starts
> > > > looking
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought
up
> > to
> > > > where
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The
second
> > tire
> > > > then
> > > > > > > > heads
> > > > > > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there
anymore
> > > > because
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things
> > spiral
> > > > > > > downward
> > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > there.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not
> > > > adjustable
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by
> > shims,
> > > > but
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > idea
> > > > > > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the
way
> it
> > > > > > positions
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require
> > > > adjustment
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > much
> > > > > > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the
caster
> > angle
> > > > on
> > > > > > > your
> > > > > > > > > YJ
> > > > > > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of
the
> > other
> > > > > > > issues.
> > > > > > > > > Ball
> > > > > > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball
> Joint
> > is
> > > > the
> > > > > > one
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should
give
> > > > serious
> > > > > > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one
> > passes
> > > > the
> > > > > > > test
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front
tire
> > off
> > > > the
> > > > > > > ground
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and
> the
> > > > bottom,
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > 2.)
> > > > > > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought
> not
> > move
> > > > in
> > > > > > > > either
> > > > > > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the
> steering
> > > > wheel
> > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be
no
> > play
> > > > in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > tie
> > > > > > > > > > rod ends.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests
and
> > all of
> > > > the
> > > > > > > tie
> > > > > > > > > rod
> > > > > > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with
> > > > replacing
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any
of
> > the
> > > > ball
> > > > > > > > joints
> > > > > > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all
> > > > like-parts
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it
is
> > only
> > > > > > > > necessary
> > > > > > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The
> > upper
> > > > ball
> > > > > > > > joints
> > > > > > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very
often.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> >
> >
>
>
#132
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: A case of death wobble today
Well, if the caster is off I'll find out this week. I agree that perhaps
the track bar has been masking the caster problem all along. No confusion
about the track bar and anti-sway bar. I have one of those on too (with the
disconnects).
I know what you're saying about Mike. He offers great information all the
time and we all appreciate it. I certainly do. His info has helped me on
more than one occasion. Thanks Mike!! I don't post too often in here, but
hang out alot for the information. His (and your) posts have always been
extremely helpful. I meant no offense to Mike or anybody else, just
conversing as well as I know how over this darn computer. ;). Also know
that I'm no expert on certain Jeepin' subjects (that's why I hang out
here!), but I'm no greenhorn either and do keep intimately familiar with my
old Jeep and how she handles, runs, etc, and don't take shortcuts when it
comes to building her. It's a bad habit I can't seem to shake!
Thanks,
Terry.
"CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
news:103hpjbpf9ngj37@corp.supernews.com...
> On another note, you keep using the term DW, and you seem to tie the
> experience in with trackbar problems. The only influence the track bar
will
> have is on holding the entire front end in place. DW, by definition, is a
> problem where the TIRES are working against each other and they set up a
> harmonic vibration that we call DW.
>
> The trackbar ought not play a role in this sort of problem.
>
> But, what if the spring bushings or some other similar part was not
working
> properly? The track bar would serve to hold the front end together and
mask
> such a problem. When the trackbar had finally had enough of this abuse,
all
> hell would break loose, and we might describe the experience as DW.
>
> I just wanted to throw that out because you keep saying that all of
steering
> parts we have been talking about are new and serviceable. Perhaps these
> parts are exactly as you said, and the trackbar does solve the problem. My
> guess is that the trackbar is, at best, masking the real problem because a
> trackbar ought not play any role whatsoever in DW.
>
> BTW,
> Lighten up on Mike. He is just exploring the possibilities. Of the
> respondants on this board, he gives the most consistantly objective views,
> and he is right far more often than he is wrong.
>
>
>
>
>
> "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:9T4_b.3604$yZ1.371@newsread2.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > Thanks Mike. You might be right in that the caster wasn't set correctly
> > when built. I certainly intend to find out this week. Being built by
> > Dynatrac, though, it's hard to believe it isn't right. But one way to
> find
> > out - get it checked.
> >
> > About the track bar and steering stabilizer. It's amazing how one hears
> so
> > many conflicting suggestions from other Jeeping individuals and
mechanics.
> > But I realize what works or eliminates a problem for one might not
> > necessarily be the solution for another. Along with you and another
> > experienced Jeeping fellow I know and trust says without a doubt, put
the
> > track bar back on, which I intend to do today. One thing for sure - I
> > didn't experience the DW until I discovered the track bar was loose on
the
> > frame side mount. Instead of removing the loose track bar and zeroing
in
> on
> > the stabilizer and/or caster as the culprit, my first (and easiest) DW
> > "test" probably should have been to tighten the track bar back up and go
> hit
> > that same bumpy road again to see if the DW was gone. I'll comment in
the
> > thread how this test goes this evening (only if I get around to doing it
> > today -- I busted up my left hand some working on the house yesterday,
and
> > swollen like it is at the moment isn't feeling up to the task!).
> >
> > Thank again. I appreciate your insight and knowledge.
> >
> > Terry.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:4038D1A5.86262FC0@sympatico.ca...
> > > When I see one thing wrong on a 'professionally' or backyard built
item,
> > > that implies the rest is shaky at best.
> > >
> > > Death wobble doesn't just happen!
> > >
> > > Something is either broken or not built correctly.
> > >
> > > You say nothing is broken, then that only leaves me with one other
> > > conclusion, it is built wrong.
> > >
> > > I mean really. That is far more than just a 'guess'.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > Terry Jeffrey wrote:
> > > >
> > > > No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by
> > Dynatrac.
> > > > Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is
> > alright,
> > > > but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people
> who
> > have
> > > > placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have
it.
> > The
> > > > reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up
front
> > with
> > > > the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the
> > track
> > > > bar. The track bar is going back on today.
> > > >
> > > > If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it.
> I've
> > > > been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when
it
> > comes
> > > > to my rig.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Terry.
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built
properly.
> > > > >
> > > > > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just
> > guessed.
> > > > > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on
> in
> > > > > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > >
> > > > > CRWLR wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes
> > > > straighat
> > > > > > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike
> can
> > > > turn on
> > > > > > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant
> > > > difference in
> > > > > > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is
similar
> to
> > the
> > > > > > Caster angle.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role
in
> > the
> > > > > > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much
> set
> > > > during
> > > > > > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster
> > angle.
> > > > > > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be
> > right. Of
> > > > > > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can
> > change
> > > > > > enough to become a player in DW.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower
> ball
> > > > joints,
> > > > > > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle
> should
> > be
> > > > > > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper
ball
> > joint
> > > > > > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a
little
> > bit
> > > > > > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable
> than
> > > > lesser
> > > > > > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires
> > will
> > > > search
> > > > > > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW
symptoms.
> > There
> > > > is
> > > > > > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a
> > Uturn,
> > > > or a
> > > > > > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a
> parking
> > > > stall.
> > > > > > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and
> see
> > if
> > > > the
> > > > > > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning
> Mode
> > and
> > > > > > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to
> drive
> > it
> > > > back
> > > > > > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if
it
> > wants
> > > > to
> > > > > > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at
play,
> > so
> > > > the
> > > > > > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it
works
> > > > pretty
> > > > > > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it
works
> > for
> > > > now.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > > > > > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the
> > push-pull-raised-tire
> > > > test
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed.
I'll
> > get
> > > > the
> > > > > > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why
caster
> > would
> > > > be a
> > > > > > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle
is
> > off,
> > > > > > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or
the
> > other?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag
> > link to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought
I
> > felt
> > > > a
> > > > > > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing
> it,
> > and
> > > > > > will
> > > > > > > replace it as soon as I can find one.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all
> > > > together
> > > > > > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the
> > Dana60.
> > > > But
> > > > > > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test
> > again.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks again,
> > > > > > > Terry.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering
> > > > stabalizer
> > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I
described?
> > (If I
> > > > > > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have
> > been
> > > > > > > suggested
> > > > > > > > to correct me?)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem
> with
> > > > > > > looseness,
> > > > > > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a
> > confirmation
> > > > > > test.
> > > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar
on
> to
> > see
> > > > if
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic
> test.
> > > > Taking
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had
worn
> > > > bushings.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > > > > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because
> > everything
> > > > else
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire
front
> > end is
> > > > new
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie
rod
> &
> > > > ends,
> > > > > > drag
> > > > > > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed
> and
> > > > tight.
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what
> > happens.
> > > > > > I'll
> > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and
> shim
> > it
> > > > up if
> > > > > > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the
> DW
> > in
> > > > that
> > > > > > > same
> > > > > > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first
> > > > thought.
> > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > she
> > > > > > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on
> the
> > old
> > > > > > > > steering
> > > > > > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the
> > frame to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > drag
> > > > > > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the
> tie
> > rod
> > > > > > > instead
> > > > > > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Terry
> > > > > > > > > 92YJ
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > > > > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering
> stabilzier"
> > for
> > > > > > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the
problem
> > for a
> > > > > > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse,
> make
> > the
> > > > > > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and
> wants
> > to
> > > > > > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball
> > joint or
> > > > > > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due
for
> > some
> > > > > > > > > > front end work.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar
> and
> > no
> > > > DW
> > > > > > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I
> > suspect
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > ball
> > > > > > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near
end-life.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of
straight
> > ahead,
> > > > and
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the
same
> > > > > > direction.
> > > > > > > > > During
> > > > > > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and
starts
> > > > looking
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought
up
> > to
> > > > where
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The
second
> > tire
> > > > then
> > > > > > > > heads
> > > > > > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there
anymore
> > > > because
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things
> > spiral
> > > > > > > downward
> > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > there.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not
> > > > adjustable
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by
> > shims,
> > > > but
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > idea
> > > > > > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the
way
> it
> > > > > > positions
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require
> > > > adjustment
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > much
> > > > > > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the
caster
> > angle
> > > > on
> > > > > > > your
> > > > > > > > > YJ
> > > > > > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of
the
> > other
> > > > > > > issues.
> > > > > > > > > Ball
> > > > > > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball
> Joint
> > is
> > > > the
> > > > > > one
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should
give
> > > > serious
> > > > > > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one
> > passes
> > > > the
> > > > > > > test
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front
tire
> > off
> > > > the
> > > > > > > ground
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and
> the
> > > > bottom,
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > 2.)
> > > > > > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought
> not
> > move
> > > > in
> > > > > > > > either
> > > > > > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the
> steering
> > > > wheel
> > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be
no
> > play
> > > > in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > tie
> > > > > > > > > > rod ends.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests
and
> > all of
> > > > the
> > > > > > > tie
> > > > > > > > > rod
> > > > > > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with
> > > > replacing
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any
of
> > the
> > > > ball
> > > > > > > > joints
> > > > > > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all
> > > > like-parts
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it
is
> > only
> > > > > > > > necessary
> > > > > > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The
> > upper
> > > > ball
> > > > > > > > joints
> > > > > > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very
often.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> >
> >
>
>
the track bar has been masking the caster problem all along. No confusion
about the track bar and anti-sway bar. I have one of those on too (with the
disconnects).
I know what you're saying about Mike. He offers great information all the
time and we all appreciate it. I certainly do. His info has helped me on
more than one occasion. Thanks Mike!! I don't post too often in here, but
hang out alot for the information. His (and your) posts have always been
extremely helpful. I meant no offense to Mike or anybody else, just
conversing as well as I know how over this darn computer. ;). Also know
that I'm no expert on certain Jeepin' subjects (that's why I hang out
here!), but I'm no greenhorn either and do keep intimately familiar with my
old Jeep and how she handles, runs, etc, and don't take shortcuts when it
comes to building her. It's a bad habit I can't seem to shake!
Thanks,
Terry.
"CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
news:103hpjbpf9ngj37@corp.supernews.com...
> On another note, you keep using the term DW, and you seem to tie the
> experience in with trackbar problems. The only influence the track bar
will
> have is on holding the entire front end in place. DW, by definition, is a
> problem where the TIRES are working against each other and they set up a
> harmonic vibration that we call DW.
>
> The trackbar ought not play a role in this sort of problem.
>
> But, what if the spring bushings or some other similar part was not
working
> properly? The track bar would serve to hold the front end together and
mask
> such a problem. When the trackbar had finally had enough of this abuse,
all
> hell would break loose, and we might describe the experience as DW.
>
> I just wanted to throw that out because you keep saying that all of
steering
> parts we have been talking about are new and serviceable. Perhaps these
> parts are exactly as you said, and the trackbar does solve the problem. My
> guess is that the trackbar is, at best, masking the real problem because a
> trackbar ought not play any role whatsoever in DW.
>
> BTW,
> Lighten up on Mike. He is just exploring the possibilities. Of the
> respondants on this board, he gives the most consistantly objective views,
> and he is right far more often than he is wrong.
>
>
>
>
>
> "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:9T4_b.3604$yZ1.371@newsread2.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > Thanks Mike. You might be right in that the caster wasn't set correctly
> > when built. I certainly intend to find out this week. Being built by
> > Dynatrac, though, it's hard to believe it isn't right. But one way to
> find
> > out - get it checked.
> >
> > About the track bar and steering stabilizer. It's amazing how one hears
> so
> > many conflicting suggestions from other Jeeping individuals and
mechanics.
> > But I realize what works or eliminates a problem for one might not
> > necessarily be the solution for another. Along with you and another
> > experienced Jeeping fellow I know and trust says without a doubt, put
the
> > track bar back on, which I intend to do today. One thing for sure - I
> > didn't experience the DW until I discovered the track bar was loose on
the
> > frame side mount. Instead of removing the loose track bar and zeroing
in
> on
> > the stabilizer and/or caster as the culprit, my first (and easiest) DW
> > "test" probably should have been to tighten the track bar back up and go
> hit
> > that same bumpy road again to see if the DW was gone. I'll comment in
the
> > thread how this test goes this evening (only if I get around to doing it
> > today -- I busted up my left hand some working on the house yesterday,
and
> > swollen like it is at the moment isn't feeling up to the task!).
> >
> > Thank again. I appreciate your insight and knowledge.
> >
> > Terry.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:4038D1A5.86262FC0@sympatico.ca...
> > > When I see one thing wrong on a 'professionally' or backyard built
item,
> > > that implies the rest is shaky at best.
> > >
> > > Death wobble doesn't just happen!
> > >
> > > Something is either broken or not built correctly.
> > >
> > > You say nothing is broken, then that only leaves me with one other
> > > conclusion, it is built wrong.
> > >
> > > I mean really. That is far more than just a 'guess'.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > Terry Jeffrey wrote:
> > > >
> > > > No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by
> > Dynatrac.
> > > > Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is
> > alright,
> > > > but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people
> who
> > have
> > > > placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have
it.
> > The
> > > > reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up
front
> > with
> > > > the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the
> > track
> > > > bar. The track bar is going back on today.
> > > >
> > > > If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it.
> I've
> > > > been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when
it
> > comes
> > > > to my rig.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Terry.
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built
properly.
> > > > >
> > > > > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just
> > guessed.
> > > > > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on
> in
> > > > > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > >
> > > > > CRWLR wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes
> > > > straighat
> > > > > > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike
> can
> > > > turn on
> > > > > > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant
> > > > difference in
> > > > > > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is
similar
> to
> > the
> > > > > > Caster angle.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role
in
> > the
> > > > > > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much
> set
> > > > during
> > > > > > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster
> > angle.
> > > > > > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be
> > right. Of
> > > > > > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can
> > change
> > > > > > enough to become a player in DW.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower
> ball
> > > > joints,
> > > > > > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle
> should
> > be
> > > > > > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper
ball
> > joint
> > > > > > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a
little
> > bit
> > > > > > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable
> than
> > > > lesser
> > > > > > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires
> > will
> > > > search
> > > > > > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW
symptoms.
> > There
> > > > is
> > > > > > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a
> > Uturn,
> > > > or a
> > > > > > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a
> parking
> > > > stall.
> > > > > > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and
> see
> > if
> > > > the
> > > > > > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning
> Mode
> > and
> > > > > > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to
> drive
> > it
> > > > back
> > > > > > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if
it
> > wants
> > > > to
> > > > > > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at
play,
> > so
> > > > the
> > > > > > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it
works
> > > > pretty
> > > > > > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it
works
> > for
> > > > now.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > > > > > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the
> > push-pull-raised-tire
> > > > test
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed.
I'll
> > get
> > > > the
> > > > > > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why
caster
> > would
> > > > be a
> > > > > > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle
is
> > off,
> > > > > > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or
the
> > other?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag
> > link to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought
I
> > felt
> > > > a
> > > > > > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing
> it,
> > and
> > > > > > will
> > > > > > > replace it as soon as I can find one.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all
> > > > together
> > > > > > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the
> > Dana60.
> > > > But
> > > > > > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test
> > again.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks again,
> > > > > > > Terry.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering
> > > > stabalizer
> > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I
described?
> > (If I
> > > > > > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have
> > been
> > > > > > > suggested
> > > > > > > > to correct me?)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem
> with
> > > > > > > looseness,
> > > > > > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a
> > confirmation
> > > > > > test.
> > > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar
on
> to
> > see
> > > > if
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic
> test.
> > > > Taking
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had
worn
> > > > bushings.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > > > > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because
> > everything
> > > > else
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire
front
> > end is
> > > > new
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie
rod
> &
> > > > ends,
> > > > > > drag
> > > > > > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed
> and
> > > > tight.
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what
> > happens.
> > > > > > I'll
> > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and
> shim
> > it
> > > > up if
> > > > > > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the
> DW
> > in
> > > > that
> > > > > > > same
> > > > > > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first
> > > > thought.
> > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > she
> > > > > > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on
> the
> > old
> > > > > > > > steering
> > > > > > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the
> > frame to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > drag
> > > > > > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the
> tie
> > rod
> > > > > > > instead
> > > > > > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Terry
> > > > > > > > > 92YJ
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > > > > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering
> stabilzier"
> > for
> > > > > > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the
problem
> > for a
> > > > > > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse,
> make
> > the
> > > > > > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and
> wants
> > to
> > > > > > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball
> > joint or
> > > > > > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due
for
> > some
> > > > > > > > > > front end work.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar
> and
> > no
> > > > DW
> > > > > > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I
> > suspect
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > ball
> > > > > > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near
end-life.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of
straight
> > ahead,
> > > > and
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the
same
> > > > > > direction.
> > > > > > > > > During
> > > > > > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and
starts
> > > > looking
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought
up
> > to
> > > > where
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The
second
> > tire
> > > > then
> > > > > > > > heads
> > > > > > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there
anymore
> > > > because
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things
> > spiral
> > > > > > > downward
> > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > there.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not
> > > > adjustable
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by
> > shims,
> > > > but
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > idea
> > > > > > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the
way
> it
> > > > > > positions
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require
> > > > adjustment
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > much
> > > > > > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the
caster
> > angle
> > > > on
> > > > > > > your
> > > > > > > > > YJ
> > > > > > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of
the
> > other
> > > > > > > issues.
> > > > > > > > > Ball
> > > > > > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball
> Joint
> > is
> > > > the
> > > > > > one
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should
give
> > > > serious
> > > > > > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one
> > passes
> > > > the
> > > > > > > test
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front
tire
> > off
> > > > the
> > > > > > > ground
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and
> the
> > > > bottom,
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > 2.)
> > > > > > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought
> not
> > move
> > > > in
> > > > > > > > either
> > > > > > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the
> steering
> > > > wheel
> > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be
no
> > play
> > > > in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > tie
> > > > > > > > > > rod ends.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests
and
> > all of
> > > > the
> > > > > > > tie
> > > > > > > > > rod
> > > > > > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with
> > > > replacing
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any
of
> > the
> > > > ball
> > > > > > > > joints
> > > > > > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all
> > > > like-parts
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it
is
> > only
> > > > > > > > necessary
> > > > > > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The
> > upper
> > > > ball
> > > > > > > > joints
> > > > > > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very
often.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> >
> >
>
>
#133
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: A case of death wobble today
Well, if the caster is off I'll find out this week. I agree that perhaps
the track bar has been masking the caster problem all along. No confusion
about the track bar and anti-sway bar. I have one of those on too (with the
disconnects).
I know what you're saying about Mike. He offers great information all the
time and we all appreciate it. I certainly do. His info has helped me on
more than one occasion. Thanks Mike!! I don't post too often in here, but
hang out alot for the information. His (and your) posts have always been
extremely helpful. I meant no offense to Mike or anybody else, just
conversing as well as I know how over this darn computer. ;). Also know
that I'm no expert on certain Jeepin' subjects (that's why I hang out
here!), but I'm no greenhorn either and do keep intimately familiar with my
old Jeep and how she handles, runs, etc, and don't take shortcuts when it
comes to building her. It's a bad habit I can't seem to shake!
Thanks,
Terry.
"CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
news:103hpjbpf9ngj37@corp.supernews.com...
> On another note, you keep using the term DW, and you seem to tie the
> experience in with trackbar problems. The only influence the track bar
will
> have is on holding the entire front end in place. DW, by definition, is a
> problem where the TIRES are working against each other and they set up a
> harmonic vibration that we call DW.
>
> The trackbar ought not play a role in this sort of problem.
>
> But, what if the spring bushings or some other similar part was not
working
> properly? The track bar would serve to hold the front end together and
mask
> such a problem. When the trackbar had finally had enough of this abuse,
all
> hell would break loose, and we might describe the experience as DW.
>
> I just wanted to throw that out because you keep saying that all of
steering
> parts we have been talking about are new and serviceable. Perhaps these
> parts are exactly as you said, and the trackbar does solve the problem. My
> guess is that the trackbar is, at best, masking the real problem because a
> trackbar ought not play any role whatsoever in DW.
>
> BTW,
> Lighten up on Mike. He is just exploring the possibilities. Of the
> respondants on this board, he gives the most consistantly objective views,
> and he is right far more often than he is wrong.
>
>
>
>
>
> "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:9T4_b.3604$yZ1.371@newsread2.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > Thanks Mike. You might be right in that the caster wasn't set correctly
> > when built. I certainly intend to find out this week. Being built by
> > Dynatrac, though, it's hard to believe it isn't right. But one way to
> find
> > out - get it checked.
> >
> > About the track bar and steering stabilizer. It's amazing how one hears
> so
> > many conflicting suggestions from other Jeeping individuals and
mechanics.
> > But I realize what works or eliminates a problem for one might not
> > necessarily be the solution for another. Along with you and another
> > experienced Jeeping fellow I know and trust says without a doubt, put
the
> > track bar back on, which I intend to do today. One thing for sure - I
> > didn't experience the DW until I discovered the track bar was loose on
the
> > frame side mount. Instead of removing the loose track bar and zeroing
in
> on
> > the stabilizer and/or caster as the culprit, my first (and easiest) DW
> > "test" probably should have been to tighten the track bar back up and go
> hit
> > that same bumpy road again to see if the DW was gone. I'll comment in
the
> > thread how this test goes this evening (only if I get around to doing it
> > today -- I busted up my left hand some working on the house yesterday,
and
> > swollen like it is at the moment isn't feeling up to the task!).
> >
> > Thank again. I appreciate your insight and knowledge.
> >
> > Terry.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:4038D1A5.86262FC0@sympatico.ca...
> > > When I see one thing wrong on a 'professionally' or backyard built
item,
> > > that implies the rest is shaky at best.
> > >
> > > Death wobble doesn't just happen!
> > >
> > > Something is either broken or not built correctly.
> > >
> > > You say nothing is broken, then that only leaves me with one other
> > > conclusion, it is built wrong.
> > >
> > > I mean really. That is far more than just a 'guess'.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > Terry Jeffrey wrote:
> > > >
> > > > No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by
> > Dynatrac.
> > > > Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is
> > alright,
> > > > but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people
> who
> > have
> > > > placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have
it.
> > The
> > > > reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up
front
> > with
> > > > the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the
> > track
> > > > bar. The track bar is going back on today.
> > > >
> > > > If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it.
> I've
> > > > been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when
it
> > comes
> > > > to my rig.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Terry.
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built
properly.
> > > > >
> > > > > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just
> > guessed.
> > > > > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on
> in
> > > > > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > >
> > > > > CRWLR wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes
> > > > straighat
> > > > > > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike
> can
> > > > turn on
> > > > > > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant
> > > > difference in
> > > > > > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is
similar
> to
> > the
> > > > > > Caster angle.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role
in
> > the
> > > > > > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much
> set
> > > > during
> > > > > > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster
> > angle.
> > > > > > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be
> > right. Of
> > > > > > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can
> > change
> > > > > > enough to become a player in DW.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower
> ball
> > > > joints,
> > > > > > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle
> should
> > be
> > > > > > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper
ball
> > joint
> > > > > > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a
little
> > bit
> > > > > > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable
> than
> > > > lesser
> > > > > > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires
> > will
> > > > search
> > > > > > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW
symptoms.
> > There
> > > > is
> > > > > > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a
> > Uturn,
> > > > or a
> > > > > > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a
> parking
> > > > stall.
> > > > > > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and
> see
> > if
> > > > the
> > > > > > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning
> Mode
> > and
> > > > > > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to
> drive
> > it
> > > > back
> > > > > > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if
it
> > wants
> > > > to
> > > > > > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at
play,
> > so
> > > > the
> > > > > > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it
works
> > > > pretty
> > > > > > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it
works
> > for
> > > > now.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > > > > > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the
> > push-pull-raised-tire
> > > > test
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed.
I'll
> > get
> > > > the
> > > > > > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why
caster
> > would
> > > > be a
> > > > > > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle
is
> > off,
> > > > > > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or
the
> > other?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag
> > link to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought
I
> > felt
> > > > a
> > > > > > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing
> it,
> > and
> > > > > > will
> > > > > > > replace it as soon as I can find one.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all
> > > > together
> > > > > > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the
> > Dana60.
> > > > But
> > > > > > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test
> > again.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks again,
> > > > > > > Terry.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering
> > > > stabalizer
> > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I
described?
> > (If I
> > > > > > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have
> > been
> > > > > > > suggested
> > > > > > > > to correct me?)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem
> with
> > > > > > > looseness,
> > > > > > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a
> > confirmation
> > > > > > test.
> > > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar
on
> to
> > see
> > > > if
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic
> test.
> > > > Taking
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had
worn
> > > > bushings.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > > > > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because
> > everything
> > > > else
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire
front
> > end is
> > > > new
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie
rod
> &
> > > > ends,
> > > > > > drag
> > > > > > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed
> and
> > > > tight.
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what
> > happens.
> > > > > > I'll
> > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and
> shim
> > it
> > > > up if
> > > > > > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the
> DW
> > in
> > > > that
> > > > > > > same
> > > > > > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first
> > > > thought.
> > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > she
> > > > > > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on
> the
> > old
> > > > > > > > steering
> > > > > > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the
> > frame to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > drag
> > > > > > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the
> tie
> > rod
> > > > > > > instead
> > > > > > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Terry
> > > > > > > > > 92YJ
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > > > > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering
> stabilzier"
> > for
> > > > > > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the
problem
> > for a
> > > > > > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse,
> make
> > the
> > > > > > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and
> wants
> > to
> > > > > > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball
> > joint or
> > > > > > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due
for
> > some
> > > > > > > > > > front end work.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar
> and
> > no
> > > > DW
> > > > > > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I
> > suspect
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > ball
> > > > > > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near
end-life.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of
straight
> > ahead,
> > > > and
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the
same
> > > > > > direction.
> > > > > > > > > During
> > > > > > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and
starts
> > > > looking
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought
up
> > to
> > > > where
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The
second
> > tire
> > > > then
> > > > > > > > heads
> > > > > > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there
anymore
> > > > because
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things
> > spiral
> > > > > > > downward
> > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > there.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not
> > > > adjustable
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by
> > shims,
> > > > but
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > idea
> > > > > > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the
way
> it
> > > > > > positions
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require
> > > > adjustment
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > much
> > > > > > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the
caster
> > angle
> > > > on
> > > > > > > your
> > > > > > > > > YJ
> > > > > > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of
the
> > other
> > > > > > > issues.
> > > > > > > > > Ball
> > > > > > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball
> Joint
> > is
> > > > the
> > > > > > one
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should
give
> > > > serious
> > > > > > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one
> > passes
> > > > the
> > > > > > > test
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front
tire
> > off
> > > > the
> > > > > > > ground
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and
> the
> > > > bottom,
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > 2.)
> > > > > > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought
> not
> > move
> > > > in
> > > > > > > > either
> > > > > > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the
> steering
> > > > wheel
> > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be
no
> > play
> > > > in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > tie
> > > > > > > > > > rod ends.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests
and
> > all of
> > > > the
> > > > > > > tie
> > > > > > > > > rod
> > > > > > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with
> > > > replacing
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any
of
> > the
> > > > ball
> > > > > > > > joints
> > > > > > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all
> > > > like-parts
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it
is
> > only
> > > > > > > > necessary
> > > > > > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The
> > upper
> > > > ball
> > > > > > > > joints
> > > > > > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very
often.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> >
> >
>
>
the track bar has been masking the caster problem all along. No confusion
about the track bar and anti-sway bar. I have one of those on too (with the
disconnects).
I know what you're saying about Mike. He offers great information all the
time and we all appreciate it. I certainly do. His info has helped me on
more than one occasion. Thanks Mike!! I don't post too often in here, but
hang out alot for the information. His (and your) posts have always been
extremely helpful. I meant no offense to Mike or anybody else, just
conversing as well as I know how over this darn computer. ;). Also know
that I'm no expert on certain Jeepin' subjects (that's why I hang out
here!), but I'm no greenhorn either and do keep intimately familiar with my
old Jeep and how she handles, runs, etc, and don't take shortcuts when it
comes to building her. It's a bad habit I can't seem to shake!
Thanks,
Terry.
"CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
news:103hpjbpf9ngj37@corp.supernews.com...
> On another note, you keep using the term DW, and you seem to tie the
> experience in with trackbar problems. The only influence the track bar
will
> have is on holding the entire front end in place. DW, by definition, is a
> problem where the TIRES are working against each other and they set up a
> harmonic vibration that we call DW.
>
> The trackbar ought not play a role in this sort of problem.
>
> But, what if the spring bushings or some other similar part was not
working
> properly? The track bar would serve to hold the front end together and
mask
> such a problem. When the trackbar had finally had enough of this abuse,
all
> hell would break loose, and we might describe the experience as DW.
>
> I just wanted to throw that out because you keep saying that all of
steering
> parts we have been talking about are new and serviceable. Perhaps these
> parts are exactly as you said, and the trackbar does solve the problem. My
> guess is that the trackbar is, at best, masking the real problem because a
> trackbar ought not play any role whatsoever in DW.
>
> BTW,
> Lighten up on Mike. He is just exploring the possibilities. Of the
> respondants on this board, he gives the most consistantly objective views,
> and he is right far more often than he is wrong.
>
>
>
>
>
> "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:9T4_b.3604$yZ1.371@newsread2.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > Thanks Mike. You might be right in that the caster wasn't set correctly
> > when built. I certainly intend to find out this week. Being built by
> > Dynatrac, though, it's hard to believe it isn't right. But one way to
> find
> > out - get it checked.
> >
> > About the track bar and steering stabilizer. It's amazing how one hears
> so
> > many conflicting suggestions from other Jeeping individuals and
mechanics.
> > But I realize what works or eliminates a problem for one might not
> > necessarily be the solution for another. Along with you and another
> > experienced Jeeping fellow I know and trust says without a doubt, put
the
> > track bar back on, which I intend to do today. One thing for sure - I
> > didn't experience the DW until I discovered the track bar was loose on
the
> > frame side mount. Instead of removing the loose track bar and zeroing
in
> on
> > the stabilizer and/or caster as the culprit, my first (and easiest) DW
> > "test" probably should have been to tighten the track bar back up and go
> hit
> > that same bumpy road again to see if the DW was gone. I'll comment in
the
> > thread how this test goes this evening (only if I get around to doing it
> > today -- I busted up my left hand some working on the house yesterday,
and
> > swollen like it is at the moment isn't feeling up to the task!).
> >
> > Thank again. I appreciate your insight and knowledge.
> >
> > Terry.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:4038D1A5.86262FC0@sympatico.ca...
> > > When I see one thing wrong on a 'professionally' or backyard built
item,
> > > that implies the rest is shaky at best.
> > >
> > > Death wobble doesn't just happen!
> > >
> > > Something is either broken or not built correctly.
> > >
> > > You say nothing is broken, then that only leaves me with one other
> > > conclusion, it is built wrong.
> > >
> > > I mean really. That is far more than just a 'guess'.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > Terry Jeffrey wrote:
> > > >
> > > > No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by
> > Dynatrac.
> > > > Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is
> > alright,
> > > > but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people
> who
> > have
> > > > placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have
it.
> > The
> > > > reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up
front
> > with
> > > > the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the
> > track
> > > > bar. The track bar is going back on today.
> > > >
> > > > If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it.
> I've
> > > > been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when
it
> > comes
> > > > to my rig.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Terry.
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:4038C4C8.9F7976B4@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > He has a custom front end that sounds like it wasn't built
properly.
> > > > >
> > > > > The builder might not have known how to set the caster so just
> > guessed.
> > > > > He certainly didn't know how to put a steering stabilizer shock on
> in
> > > > > the correct place so that implies he guessed at everything....
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > >
> > > > > CRWLR wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Think of how the forks on a motorcycle are raked. A chopper goes
> > > > straighat
> > > > > > ahead really good, but can be a bitch to turn, and a racing bike
> can
> > > > turn on
> > > > > > a dime, but the steering is very twitchy. The most significant
> > > > difference in
> > > > > > these examples is the rake of the forks, and this rake is
similar
> to
> > the
> > > > > > Caster angle.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As I said earlier, caster typically does not play a large role
in
> > the
> > > > > > adjustments of the front end geometry because it is pretty much
> set
> > > > during
> > > > > > manufacturing of the axle. The spring perches define the caster
> > angle.
> > > > > > Assuming the axle is the right one, the caster angle should be
> > right. Of
> > > > > > course, with custom modifications - lift - the caster angle can
> > change
> > > > > > enough to become a player in DW.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Caster angle is the imaginary line through the upper and lower
> ball
> > > > joints,
> > > > > > and the center of the spindle. Properly set, the caster angle
> should
> > be
> > > > > > about 7° towards the rear of the vehicle. That is, the upper
ball
> > joint
> > > > > > should trail the lower by about 7°. Perhaps the number is a
little
> > bit
> > > > > > different in your case, but greater angles will be more stable
> than
> > > > lesser
> > > > > > angles. When the angle drops to about 4° or less, then the tires
> > will
> > > > search
> > > > > > for the straight ahead position, and this sets up the DW
symptoms.
> > There
> > > > is
> > > > > > an easy test for Caster angle ... Go to an open area and make a
> > Uturn,
> > > > or a
> > > > > > manuver that simulates what you might do when backing from a
> parking
> > > > stall.
> > > > > > Turn the steering wheel fully to one stop, then begin going and
> see
> > if
> > > > the
> > > > > > wheel returns to center on its own, or if it remains in Turning
> Mode
> > and
> > > > > > requires you to physically turn back to center. If you have to
> drive
> > it
> > > > back
> > > > > > to straight ahead, then your caster is not great enough, but if
it
> > wants
> > > > to
> > > > > > go to center on its own, then the caster is probably OK.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In my motorcycle analogy, there are other geometry forces at
play,
> > so
> > > > the
> > > > > > analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but in general terms, it
works
> > > > pretty
> > > > > > well. I am certain that my analogy will be corrected, but it
works
> > for
> > > > now.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My FSM says the spec for Caster angle is 6°.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:a5SZb.4126$aT1.454@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > > > > > > The ball joints appear to be good. I did the
> > push-pull-raised-tire
> > > > test
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > it checked out Ok. All the rod ends are tight and lubed.
I'll
> > get
> > > > the
> > > > > > > caster checked out next week. Explain, if you will, why
caster
> > would
> > > > be a
> > > > > > > player in DW. This could be my problem. If the caster angle
is
> > off,
> > > > > > > wouldn't this only cause the vehicle to pull to one side or
the
> > other?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It was suggested to move the steering stabilizer from the drag
> > link to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > tie rod. When I did this, I still got the same DW. I thought
I
> > felt
> > > > a
> > > > > > > little air in the stabilizer at the extended end while testing
> it,
> > and
> > > > > > will
> > > > > > > replace it as soon as I can find one.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your track bar comment is noted. I'd like to leave it off all
> > > > together
> > > > > > > because real estate up front is a premium right now with the
> > Dana60.
> > > > But
> > > > > > > will put it back on nice and tight and put the DW to the test
> > again.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks again,
> > > > > > > Terry.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:103foc9kj445236@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > If all of that stuff is new, I would not think the steering
> > > > stabalizer
> > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > be so significant. Did you attempt the tests that I
described?
> > (If I
> > > > > > > > described something incorrectly, did you try what might have
> > been
> > > > > > > suggested
> > > > > > > > to correct me?)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you suspect the track bar is worn, and causing a problem
> with
> > > > > > > looseness,
> > > > > > > > then removing the trackbar altogether is not much of a
> > confirmation
> > > > > > test.
> > > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > yo had no trackbar, and complained of DW, then put the bar
on
> to
> > see
> > > > if
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > DW went away, then you would have a reasonable diagnostic
> test.
> > > > Taking
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > trackbar off is the same thing as having one on that had
worn
> > > > bushings.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Terry Jeffrey" <twjeffrey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:nCwZb.3004$aT1.1407@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > > > > > > > > It very well might be the steering stabilizer because
> > everything
> > > > else
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > front is new. All the steering components and entire
front
> > end is
> > > > new
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > tight and only has about 3,000 miles. Ball joints, tie
rod
> &
> > > > ends,
> > > > > > drag
> > > > > > > > > link & ends, and steering arms are all new, freshly lubed
> and
> > > > tight.
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > put a Dynatrac D60 up front in October.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'll do the test you suggest anyway tonight and see what
> > happens.
> > > > > > I'll
> > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > the caster checked too at one of these local garages and
> shim
> > it
> > > > up if
> > > > > > > > > needed. I removed the track bar for now but still got the
> DW
> > in
> > > > that
> > > > > > > same
> > > > > > > > > damn bump again so I know it wasn't the track bar as first
> > > > thought.
> > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > she
> > > > > > > > > passes the ball joint and tie rod tests then I'll focus on
> the
> > old
> > > > > > > > steering
> > > > > > > > > stabilizer. The stabilizer is currently mounted from the
> > frame to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > drag
> > > > > > > > > link. One fellow today suggested moving the mount to the
> tie
> > rod
> > > > > > > instead
> > > > > > > > > since it is "closer" to the steering.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the comments and info.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Terry
> > > > > > > > > 92YJ
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "CRWLR" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:103cffo5nl9i178@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > > news:ttpZb.6$DV3.10262@news.uswest.net...
> > > > > > > > > > Bill, Ya gotta quit suggesting "replace steering
> stabilzier"
> > for
> > > > > > > > > > every case of DW. Sure, replacing it might fix the
problem
> > for a
> > > > > > > > > > while but the underlying condition will just get worse,
> make
> > the
> > > > > > > > > > NEXT DW more serious. The OP has a loose track bar and
> wants
> > to
> > > > > > > > > > REMOVE it? I'll make bets that he also has a loose ball
> > joint or
> > > > > > > > > > tie rod end. The '92 YJ has 12 years on it, about due
for
> > some
> > > > > > > > > > front end work.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I'll second that diagnosis.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I have a leaf spring suspension, and I have no trackbar
> and
> > no
> > > > DW
> > > > > > > > > > experiences. I am about due for some DW though because I
> > suspect
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > ball
> > > > > > > > > > joints are worn and I know the tie rods are near
end-life.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > DW is caused because one tire gets pushed off of
straight
> > ahead,
> > > > and
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > takes a while for the other tire to aim itself in the
same
> > > > > > direction.
> > > > > > > > > During
> > > > > > > > > > the delay, the first tire regains its composure and
starts
> > > > looking
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > front again, in the mean time the other tire has cought
up
> > to
> > > > where
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > first tire was a second ago but isn't anymore. The
second
> > tire
> > > > then
> > > > > > > > heads
> > > > > > > > > > back to the front, but the first tire is not there
anymore
> > > > because
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > > decided to go to where the other tire just left. Things
> > spiral
> > > > > > > downward
> > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > there.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Caster Angle plays a large role in DW, but caster is not
> > > > adjustable
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > leaf spring front end. (Yes, caster can be adjusted by
> > shims,
> > > > but
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > idea
> > > > > > > > > > is that the axle builder sets the caster angle by the
way
> it
> > > > > > positions
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > spring perches, and the angle normally does not require
> > > > adjustment
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > much
> > > > > > > > > > as it might in a coil spring set up.) I suspect the
caster
> > angle
> > > > on
> > > > > > > your
> > > > > > > > > YJ
> > > > > > > > > > is probably fine, so it is time to move on to some of
the
> > other
> > > > > > > issues.
> > > > > > > > > Ball
> > > > > > > > > > joints and tie rods should be checked. The Lower Ball
> Joint
> > is
> > > > the
> > > > > > one
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > you will most likely need to replace, and you should
give
> > > > serious
> > > > > > > > > > consideration to replacing both of them even if only one
> > passes
> > > > the
> > > > > > > test
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > a failure item. To test for failure, raise the front
tire
> > off
> > > > the
> > > > > > > ground
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > 1.) try to move it by pushing and pulling at the top and
> the
> > > > bottom,
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > 2.)
> > > > > > > > > > use a lever to lift the tire. The tire under test ought
> not
> > move
> > > > in
> > > > > > > > either
> > > > > > > > > > of these tests. You need a buddy to GENTLY turn the
> steering
> > > > wheel
> > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > forth as you look at each tie rod end. There should be
no
> > play
> > > > in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > tie
> > > > > > > > > > rod ends.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If the tires (both) pass both of the ball joint tests
and
> > all of
> > > > the
> > > > > > > tie
> > > > > > > > > rod
> > > > > > > > > > ends pass the tie rod tests, THEN you can get away with
> > > > replacing
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > steering stabalizer as the only repair activity. If any
of
> > the
> > > > ball
> > > > > > > > joints
> > > > > > > > > > or tie rods fail its respective test, then replace all
> > > > like-parts
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > steering stabalizer. In the case of the ball joints, it
is
> > only
> > > > > > > > necessary
> > > > > > > > > > (MOST OF THE TIME) to replace the lower ball joints. The
> > upper
> > > > ball
> > > > > > > > joints
> > > > > > > > > > don't carry any weight, so they do not go out very
often.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> >
> >
>
>
#134
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: A case of death wobble today
Terry Jeffrey did pass the time by typing:
> Well, if the caster is off I'll find out this week. I agree that perhaps
> the track bar has been masking the caster problem all along. No confusion
> about the track bar and anti-sway bar. I have one of those on too (with the
> disconnects).
<massive snip>
Also check the wheels for tread depth and roundness. I've had dw caused by wheels
about 1/16 different in tread depth. (the tire store put the two "best" wheels up
front) After putting the two most equal diameter wheels up front dw went away.
Last cause was a thrown wheel weight.
First cause was a stuck shock valve. (edelbrock IAS)
--
DougW
> Well, if the caster is off I'll find out this week. I agree that perhaps
> the track bar has been masking the caster problem all along. No confusion
> about the track bar and anti-sway bar. I have one of those on too (with the
> disconnects).
<massive snip>
Also check the wheels for tread depth and roundness. I've had dw caused by wheels
about 1/16 different in tread depth. (the tire store put the two "best" wheels up
front) After putting the two most equal diameter wheels up front dw went away.
Last cause was a thrown wheel weight.
First cause was a stuck shock valve. (edelbrock IAS)
--
DougW
#135
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: A case of death wobble today
Terry Jeffrey did pass the time by typing:
> Well, if the caster is off I'll find out this week. I agree that perhaps
> the track bar has been masking the caster problem all along. No confusion
> about the track bar and anti-sway bar. I have one of those on too (with the
> disconnects).
<massive snip>
Also check the wheels for tread depth and roundness. I've had dw caused by wheels
about 1/16 different in tread depth. (the tire store put the two "best" wheels up
front) After putting the two most equal diameter wheels up front dw went away.
Last cause was a thrown wheel weight.
First cause was a stuck shock valve. (edelbrock IAS)
--
DougW
> Well, if the caster is off I'll find out this week. I agree that perhaps
> the track bar has been masking the caster problem all along. No confusion
> about the track bar and anti-sway bar. I have one of those on too (with the
> disconnects).
<massive snip>
Also check the wheels for tread depth and roundness. I've had dw caused by wheels
about 1/16 different in tread depth. (the tire store put the two "best" wheels up
front) After putting the two most equal diameter wheels up front dw went away.
Last cause was a thrown wheel weight.
First cause was a stuck shock valve. (edelbrock IAS)
--
DougW
#136
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: A case of death wobble today
Terry Jeffrey did pass the time by typing:
> Well, if the caster is off I'll find out this week. I agree that perhaps
> the track bar has been masking the caster problem all along. No confusion
> about the track bar and anti-sway bar. I have one of those on too (with the
> disconnects).
<massive snip>
Also check the wheels for tread depth and roundness. I've had dw caused by wheels
about 1/16 different in tread depth. (the tire store put the two "best" wheels up
front) After putting the two most equal diameter wheels up front dw went away.
Last cause was a thrown wheel weight.
First cause was a stuck shock valve. (edelbrock IAS)
--
DougW
> Well, if the caster is off I'll find out this week. I agree that perhaps
> the track bar has been masking the caster problem all along. No confusion
> about the track bar and anti-sway bar. I have one of those on too (with the
> disconnects).
<massive snip>
Also check the wheels for tread depth and roundness. I've had dw caused by wheels
about 1/16 different in tread depth. (the tire store put the two "best" wheels up
front) After putting the two most equal diameter wheels up front dw went away.
Last cause was a thrown wheel weight.
First cause was a stuck shock valve. (edelbrock IAS)
--
DougW
#137
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: A case of death wobble today
I'll do that. The 35" MT/Rs I have are getting old (about 2.5 yrs old) but
I'm keeping them until springtime when I will be in a better position to
afford a new set. When I take her in for a caster check this week, I'll
have the mechanic also take a look at the tires and wheel weights. The Jeep
got new front Rancho RS9000X shocks when I did the front-end upgrade, but
I'll check them out too.
Thanks Doug.
Terry.
> Also check the wheels for tread depth and roundness. I've had dw caused
by wheels
> about 1/16 different in tread depth. (the tire store put the two "best"
wheels up
> front) After putting the two most equal diameter wheels up front dw went
away.
>
> Last cause was a thrown wheel weight.
>
> First cause was a stuck shock valve. (edelbrock IAS)
>
> --
> DougW
>
>
I'm keeping them until springtime when I will be in a better position to
afford a new set. When I take her in for a caster check this week, I'll
have the mechanic also take a look at the tires and wheel weights. The Jeep
got new front Rancho RS9000X shocks when I did the front-end upgrade, but
I'll check them out too.
Thanks Doug.
Terry.
> Also check the wheels for tread depth and roundness. I've had dw caused
by wheels
> about 1/16 different in tread depth. (the tire store put the two "best"
wheels up
> front) After putting the two most equal diameter wheels up front dw went
away.
>
> Last cause was a thrown wheel weight.
>
> First cause was a stuck shock valve. (edelbrock IAS)
>
> --
> DougW
>
>
#138
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: A case of death wobble today
I'll do that. The 35" MT/Rs I have are getting old (about 2.5 yrs old) but
I'm keeping them until springtime when I will be in a better position to
afford a new set. When I take her in for a caster check this week, I'll
have the mechanic also take a look at the tires and wheel weights. The Jeep
got new front Rancho RS9000X shocks when I did the front-end upgrade, but
I'll check them out too.
Thanks Doug.
Terry.
> Also check the wheels for tread depth and roundness. I've had dw caused
by wheels
> about 1/16 different in tread depth. (the tire store put the two "best"
wheels up
> front) After putting the two most equal diameter wheels up front dw went
away.
>
> Last cause was a thrown wheel weight.
>
> First cause was a stuck shock valve. (edelbrock IAS)
>
> --
> DougW
>
>
I'm keeping them until springtime when I will be in a better position to
afford a new set. When I take her in for a caster check this week, I'll
have the mechanic also take a look at the tires and wheel weights. The Jeep
got new front Rancho RS9000X shocks when I did the front-end upgrade, but
I'll check them out too.
Thanks Doug.
Terry.
> Also check the wheels for tread depth and roundness. I've had dw caused
by wheels
> about 1/16 different in tread depth. (the tire store put the two "best"
wheels up
> front) After putting the two most equal diameter wheels up front dw went
away.
>
> Last cause was a thrown wheel weight.
>
> First cause was a stuck shock valve. (edelbrock IAS)
>
> --
> DougW
>
>
#139
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: A case of death wobble today
I'll do that. The 35" MT/Rs I have are getting old (about 2.5 yrs old) but
I'm keeping them until springtime when I will be in a better position to
afford a new set. When I take her in for a caster check this week, I'll
have the mechanic also take a look at the tires and wheel weights. The Jeep
got new front Rancho RS9000X shocks when I did the front-end upgrade, but
I'll check them out too.
Thanks Doug.
Terry.
> Also check the wheels for tread depth and roundness. I've had dw caused
by wheels
> about 1/16 different in tread depth. (the tire store put the two "best"
wheels up
> front) After putting the two most equal diameter wheels up front dw went
away.
>
> Last cause was a thrown wheel weight.
>
> First cause was a stuck shock valve. (edelbrock IAS)
>
> --
> DougW
>
>
I'm keeping them until springtime when I will be in a better position to
afford a new set. When I take her in for a caster check this week, I'll
have the mechanic also take a look at the tires and wheel weights. The Jeep
got new front Rancho RS9000X shocks when I did the front-end upgrade, but
I'll check them out too.
Thanks Doug.
Terry.
> Also check the wheels for tread depth and roundness. I've had dw caused
by wheels
> about 1/16 different in tread depth. (the tire store put the two "best"
wheels up
> front) After putting the two most equal diameter wheels up front dw went
away.
>
> Last cause was a thrown wheel weight.
>
> First cause was a stuck shock valve. (edelbrock IAS)
>
> --
> DougW
>
>
#140
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: A case of death wobble today
I wonder on the track bar.
Please fill me in on what you have so I can at least play 'devil's
advocate' with all the info I can get.... ;-)
A stock YJ with the soft flat leaf springs came with a track bar.
The CJ's before it with stiffer arched springs didn't come with, nor do
they need a track bar, nor do the lift kits call for one.
You have 35's and a Dana 60 in the front????
I would then think you might just have a lift of some sorts??? Does the
lift call for the track bar or is that something the shop added to make
up for a possible death wobble issue rather than re-make the spring
perches to get the caster right or to make up for a bad u-joint and axle
angle issue?
Do you have tall shackles per chance that the axle builders didn't know
about. That can crap out the caster big time.
Mike
Terry Jeffrey wrote:
>
> Thanks Mike. You might be right in that the caster wasn't set correctly
> when built. I certainly intend to find out this week. Being built by
> Dynatrac, though, it's hard to believe it isn't right. But one way to find
> out - get it checked.
>
> About the track bar and steering stabilizer. It's amazing how one hears so
> many conflicting suggestions from other Jeeping individuals and mechanics.
> But I realize what works or eliminates a problem for one might not
> necessarily be the solution for another. Along with you and another
> experienced Jeeping fellow I know and trust says without a doubt, put the
> track bar back on, which I intend to do today. One thing for sure - I
> didn't experience the DW until I discovered the track bar was loose on the
> frame side mount. Instead of removing the loose track bar and zeroing in on
> the stabilizer and/or caster as the culprit, my first (and easiest) DW
> "test" probably should have been to tighten the track bar back up and go hit
> that same bumpy road again to see if the DW was gone. I'll comment in the
> thread how this test goes this evening (only if I get around to doing it
> today -- I busted up my left hand some working on the house yesterday, and
> swollen like it is at the moment isn't feeling up to the task!).
>
> Thank again. I appreciate your insight and knowledge.
>
> Terry.
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:4038D1A5.86262FC0@sympatico.ca...
> > When I see one thing wrong on a 'professionally' or backyard built item,
> > that implies the rest is shaky at best.
> >
> > Death wobble doesn't just happen!
> >
> > Something is either broken or not built correctly.
> >
> > You say nothing is broken, then that only leaves me with one other
> > conclusion, it is built wrong.
> >
> > I mean really. That is far more than just a 'guess'.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Terry Jeffrey wrote:
> > >
> > > No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by
> Dynatrac.
> > > Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is
> alright,
> > > but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people who
> have
> > > placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have it.
> The
> > > reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up front
> with
> > > the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the
> track
> > > bar. The track bar is going back on today.
> > >
> > > If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it. I've
> > > been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when it
> comes
> > > to my rig.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Terry.
<snip>
Please fill me in on what you have so I can at least play 'devil's
advocate' with all the info I can get.... ;-)
A stock YJ with the soft flat leaf springs came with a track bar.
The CJ's before it with stiffer arched springs didn't come with, nor do
they need a track bar, nor do the lift kits call for one.
You have 35's and a Dana 60 in the front????
I would then think you might just have a lift of some sorts??? Does the
lift call for the track bar or is that something the shop added to make
up for a possible death wobble issue rather than re-make the spring
perches to get the caster right or to make up for a bad u-joint and axle
angle issue?
Do you have tall shackles per chance that the axle builders didn't know
about. That can crap out the caster big time.
Mike
Terry Jeffrey wrote:
>
> Thanks Mike. You might be right in that the caster wasn't set correctly
> when built. I certainly intend to find out this week. Being built by
> Dynatrac, though, it's hard to believe it isn't right. But one way to find
> out - get it checked.
>
> About the track bar and steering stabilizer. It's amazing how one hears so
> many conflicting suggestions from other Jeeping individuals and mechanics.
> But I realize what works or eliminates a problem for one might not
> necessarily be the solution for another. Along with you and another
> experienced Jeeping fellow I know and trust says without a doubt, put the
> track bar back on, which I intend to do today. One thing for sure - I
> didn't experience the DW until I discovered the track bar was loose on the
> frame side mount. Instead of removing the loose track bar and zeroing in on
> the stabilizer and/or caster as the culprit, my first (and easiest) DW
> "test" probably should have been to tighten the track bar back up and go hit
> that same bumpy road again to see if the DW was gone. I'll comment in the
> thread how this test goes this evening (only if I get around to doing it
> today -- I busted up my left hand some working on the house yesterday, and
> swollen like it is at the moment isn't feeling up to the task!).
>
> Thank again. I appreciate your insight and knowledge.
>
> Terry.
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:4038D1A5.86262FC0@sympatico.ca...
> > When I see one thing wrong on a 'professionally' or backyard built item,
> > that implies the rest is shaky at best.
> >
> > Death wobble doesn't just happen!
> >
> > Something is either broken or not built correctly.
> >
> > You say nothing is broken, then that only leaves me with one other
> > conclusion, it is built wrong.
> >
> > I mean really. That is far more than just a 'guess'.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Terry Jeffrey wrote:
> > >
> > > No, you are guessing. The front end is professionally built by
> Dynatrac.
> > > Everything is tight and fits correctly. I'm betting the caster is
> alright,
> > > but will get it checked anyway. I've also known quite a few people who
> have
> > > placed the steering stabilizer onto the drag link just like I have it.
> The
> > > reason it is on the drag link is because real estate is tight up front
> with
> > > the D60 and placing it on the tie rod initially interfered with the
> track
> > > bar. The track bar is going back on today.
> > >
> > > If you have a question about my rig, feel free to ask me about it. I've
> > > been Jeeping for many years and don't guess or take short cuts when it
> comes
> > > to my rig.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Terry.
<snip>