Willys/Ford Engine Swap? Possible?
#91
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: ******/Ford Engine Swap? Possible?
You're full of sh*t! Fortunately you can't find another idiot one
the internet that stupid! I invite you to practice some of that
experimenting on your vehicles.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Ted Azito wrote:
>
> The Navy did, in fact, run its early jets-Banshees and Panthers-on
> 115/145 Avgas. The worst possible jet fuel, and one that would destroy
> the hot section on a modern engine quickly-but it was also the fuel
> used by the J-47s-in modified B-47 pods-used on B-36s. The burner cans
> and T wheels would foul and they would clean them by injections of
> pulverized walnut hulls. Lesser grades of Avgas worked ok provided the
> engine was _trimmed_ to use the fuel, and a little oil was added , or
> in the case of the B-36 a modified fuel controller was used.
>
> Leaded gasoline is not under any circumstances permitted for
> continuous use in any modern gas turbine. _Unleaded_ gasoline is an OK
> alternate fuel on some engines, but again it neeeds oil and must be
> trimmed for the fuel used. Read The Fantastic Manual!
>
> The T-2 Buckeye actually has a small lever on the throttle quadrant
> for "AVGAS" or "JET FUEL". The fuel controller has a switchable valve
> and the engine is trimmmed for each fuel.
>
> On the new FADEC engines, I don't know what the procedure is. On
> mechanical engines, use of any fuel for which the engine is not
> trimmed is automatically an "emergency" rather than "alternate" fuel.
>
> The main objection to flying #1 Diesel with an antifreeze (Prist)
> today is its higher sulfur and vanadium content. A number of the
> warjet guys are flying on it anyway and with ULSD introduction it will
> probably be STC'd for a lot of the turboprop and helo fleet,enabling
> owners to truck their own fuel and leveraging Jet A retail costs down.
>
> For the record: I am not now nor have I ever advocated operating any
> aircraft on any fuel not approved both by the engine manufacturer AND,
> on ATC'd aircraft, the Type Certificate Data Sheet (or an approved
> STC). Since oIIIIIIIIo has never seen a TCDS or an engine Type
> Certificate, he will doubtless post more --------, but that's the
> straight poop.
the internet that stupid! I invite you to practice some of that
experimenting on your vehicles.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Ted Azito wrote:
>
> The Navy did, in fact, run its early jets-Banshees and Panthers-on
> 115/145 Avgas. The worst possible jet fuel, and one that would destroy
> the hot section on a modern engine quickly-but it was also the fuel
> used by the J-47s-in modified B-47 pods-used on B-36s. The burner cans
> and T wheels would foul and they would clean them by injections of
> pulverized walnut hulls. Lesser grades of Avgas worked ok provided the
> engine was _trimmed_ to use the fuel, and a little oil was added , or
> in the case of the B-36 a modified fuel controller was used.
>
> Leaded gasoline is not under any circumstances permitted for
> continuous use in any modern gas turbine. _Unleaded_ gasoline is an OK
> alternate fuel on some engines, but again it neeeds oil and must be
> trimmed for the fuel used. Read The Fantastic Manual!
>
> The T-2 Buckeye actually has a small lever on the throttle quadrant
> for "AVGAS" or "JET FUEL". The fuel controller has a switchable valve
> and the engine is trimmmed for each fuel.
>
> On the new FADEC engines, I don't know what the procedure is. On
> mechanical engines, use of any fuel for which the engine is not
> trimmed is automatically an "emergency" rather than "alternate" fuel.
>
> The main objection to flying #1 Diesel with an antifreeze (Prist)
> today is its higher sulfur and vanadium content. A number of the
> warjet guys are flying on it anyway and with ULSD introduction it will
> probably be STC'd for a lot of the turboprop and helo fleet,enabling
> owners to truck their own fuel and leveraging Jet A retail costs down.
>
> For the record: I am not now nor have I ever advocated operating any
> aircraft on any fuel not approved both by the engine manufacturer AND,
> on ATC'd aircraft, the Type Certificate Data Sheet (or an approved
> STC). Since oIIIIIIIIo has never seen a TCDS or an engine Type
> Certificate, he will doubtless post more --------, but that's the
> straight poop.
#92
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: ******/Ford Engine Swap? Possible?
You're full of sh*t! Fortunately you can't find another idiot one
the internet that stupid! I invite you to practice some of that
experimenting on your vehicles.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Ted Azito wrote:
>
> The Navy did, in fact, run its early jets-Banshees and Panthers-on
> 115/145 Avgas. The worst possible jet fuel, and one that would destroy
> the hot section on a modern engine quickly-but it was also the fuel
> used by the J-47s-in modified B-47 pods-used on B-36s. The burner cans
> and T wheels would foul and they would clean them by injections of
> pulverized walnut hulls. Lesser grades of Avgas worked ok provided the
> engine was _trimmed_ to use the fuel, and a little oil was added , or
> in the case of the B-36 a modified fuel controller was used.
>
> Leaded gasoline is not under any circumstances permitted for
> continuous use in any modern gas turbine. _Unleaded_ gasoline is an OK
> alternate fuel on some engines, but again it neeeds oil and must be
> trimmed for the fuel used. Read The Fantastic Manual!
>
> The T-2 Buckeye actually has a small lever on the throttle quadrant
> for "AVGAS" or "JET FUEL". The fuel controller has a switchable valve
> and the engine is trimmmed for each fuel.
>
> On the new FADEC engines, I don't know what the procedure is. On
> mechanical engines, use of any fuel for which the engine is not
> trimmed is automatically an "emergency" rather than "alternate" fuel.
>
> The main objection to flying #1 Diesel with an antifreeze (Prist)
> today is its higher sulfur and vanadium content. A number of the
> warjet guys are flying on it anyway and with ULSD introduction it will
> probably be STC'd for a lot of the turboprop and helo fleet,enabling
> owners to truck their own fuel and leveraging Jet A retail costs down.
>
> For the record: I am not now nor have I ever advocated operating any
> aircraft on any fuel not approved both by the engine manufacturer AND,
> on ATC'd aircraft, the Type Certificate Data Sheet (or an approved
> STC). Since oIIIIIIIIo has never seen a TCDS or an engine Type
> Certificate, he will doubtless post more --------, but that's the
> straight poop.
the internet that stupid! I invite you to practice some of that
experimenting on your vehicles.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Ted Azito wrote:
>
> The Navy did, in fact, run its early jets-Banshees and Panthers-on
> 115/145 Avgas. The worst possible jet fuel, and one that would destroy
> the hot section on a modern engine quickly-but it was also the fuel
> used by the J-47s-in modified B-47 pods-used on B-36s. The burner cans
> and T wheels would foul and they would clean them by injections of
> pulverized walnut hulls. Lesser grades of Avgas worked ok provided the
> engine was _trimmed_ to use the fuel, and a little oil was added , or
> in the case of the B-36 a modified fuel controller was used.
>
> Leaded gasoline is not under any circumstances permitted for
> continuous use in any modern gas turbine. _Unleaded_ gasoline is an OK
> alternate fuel on some engines, but again it neeeds oil and must be
> trimmed for the fuel used. Read The Fantastic Manual!
>
> The T-2 Buckeye actually has a small lever on the throttle quadrant
> for "AVGAS" or "JET FUEL". The fuel controller has a switchable valve
> and the engine is trimmmed for each fuel.
>
> On the new FADEC engines, I don't know what the procedure is. On
> mechanical engines, use of any fuel for which the engine is not
> trimmed is automatically an "emergency" rather than "alternate" fuel.
>
> The main objection to flying #1 Diesel with an antifreeze (Prist)
> today is its higher sulfur and vanadium content. A number of the
> warjet guys are flying on it anyway and with ULSD introduction it will
> probably be STC'd for a lot of the turboprop and helo fleet,enabling
> owners to truck their own fuel and leveraging Jet A retail costs down.
>
> For the record: I am not now nor have I ever advocated operating any
> aircraft on any fuel not approved both by the engine manufacturer AND,
> on ATC'd aircraft, the Type Certificate Data Sheet (or an approved
> STC). Since oIIIIIIIIo has never seen a TCDS or an engine Type
> Certificate, he will doubtless post more --------, but that's the
> straight poop.
#93
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: ******/Ford Engine Swap? Possible?
You're full of sh*t! Fortunately you can't find another idiot one
the internet that stupid! I invite you to practice some of that
experimenting on your vehicles.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Ted Azito wrote:
>
> The Navy did, in fact, run its early jets-Banshees and Panthers-on
> 115/145 Avgas. The worst possible jet fuel, and one that would destroy
> the hot section on a modern engine quickly-but it was also the fuel
> used by the J-47s-in modified B-47 pods-used on B-36s. The burner cans
> and T wheels would foul and they would clean them by injections of
> pulverized walnut hulls. Lesser grades of Avgas worked ok provided the
> engine was _trimmed_ to use the fuel, and a little oil was added , or
> in the case of the B-36 a modified fuel controller was used.
>
> Leaded gasoline is not under any circumstances permitted for
> continuous use in any modern gas turbine. _Unleaded_ gasoline is an OK
> alternate fuel on some engines, but again it neeeds oil and must be
> trimmed for the fuel used. Read The Fantastic Manual!
>
> The T-2 Buckeye actually has a small lever on the throttle quadrant
> for "AVGAS" or "JET FUEL". The fuel controller has a switchable valve
> and the engine is trimmmed for each fuel.
>
> On the new FADEC engines, I don't know what the procedure is. On
> mechanical engines, use of any fuel for which the engine is not
> trimmed is automatically an "emergency" rather than "alternate" fuel.
>
> The main objection to flying #1 Diesel with an antifreeze (Prist)
> today is its higher sulfur and vanadium content. A number of the
> warjet guys are flying on it anyway and with ULSD introduction it will
> probably be STC'd for a lot of the turboprop and helo fleet,enabling
> owners to truck their own fuel and leveraging Jet A retail costs down.
>
> For the record: I am not now nor have I ever advocated operating any
> aircraft on any fuel not approved both by the engine manufacturer AND,
> on ATC'd aircraft, the Type Certificate Data Sheet (or an approved
> STC). Since oIIIIIIIIo has never seen a TCDS or an engine Type
> Certificate, he will doubtless post more --------, but that's the
> straight poop.
the internet that stupid! I invite you to practice some of that
experimenting on your vehicles.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Ted Azito wrote:
>
> The Navy did, in fact, run its early jets-Banshees and Panthers-on
> 115/145 Avgas. The worst possible jet fuel, and one that would destroy
> the hot section on a modern engine quickly-but it was also the fuel
> used by the J-47s-in modified B-47 pods-used on B-36s. The burner cans
> and T wheels would foul and they would clean them by injections of
> pulverized walnut hulls. Lesser grades of Avgas worked ok provided the
> engine was _trimmed_ to use the fuel, and a little oil was added , or
> in the case of the B-36 a modified fuel controller was used.
>
> Leaded gasoline is not under any circumstances permitted for
> continuous use in any modern gas turbine. _Unleaded_ gasoline is an OK
> alternate fuel on some engines, but again it neeeds oil and must be
> trimmed for the fuel used. Read The Fantastic Manual!
>
> The T-2 Buckeye actually has a small lever on the throttle quadrant
> for "AVGAS" or "JET FUEL". The fuel controller has a switchable valve
> and the engine is trimmmed for each fuel.
>
> On the new FADEC engines, I don't know what the procedure is. On
> mechanical engines, use of any fuel for which the engine is not
> trimmed is automatically an "emergency" rather than "alternate" fuel.
>
> The main objection to flying #1 Diesel with an antifreeze (Prist)
> today is its higher sulfur and vanadium content. A number of the
> warjet guys are flying on it anyway and with ULSD introduction it will
> probably be STC'd for a lot of the turboprop and helo fleet,enabling
> owners to truck their own fuel and leveraging Jet A retail costs down.
>
> For the record: I am not now nor have I ever advocated operating any
> aircraft on any fuel not approved both by the engine manufacturer AND,
> on ATC'd aircraft, the Type Certificate Data Sheet (or an approved
> STC). Since oIIIIIIIIo has never seen a TCDS or an engine Type
> Certificate, he will doubtless post more --------, but that's the
> straight poop.
#94
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: ******/Ford Engine Swap? Possible?
Different story entirely - I was just commenting on the jet turbine
part. That's basically a blow torch - spray fuel out the nozzle and
light it. If it burns and sustains the flame, you're in business.
The USAF manuals I still have around for several models all specify
what will work in an emergency situation and what usable substitutes
are available. We had to keep a copy of the list because almost no
civilian field had JP4 and we were always winding up in some podunk
strip when Gulf coast weather caught us. The goal was to find
someplace with some sort of jet fuel but a lot of guys wound up at
some private strip or a crop duster operation - the jet I flew at the
time required about 4000' of runway and I put one down on a 1500' dirt
strip, so we could use about anyplace when home plate socked in. Now
that I think about it, I did come home on 115/145 avgas from that one.
They poured walnut shells thru the engine to clean it, then pulled
the turbine to inspect the blades for cracks (avgas burns hotter in
that case) and deposits. I got to fly the test flights before the
bird was released for unrestricted flight after that.
I would NOT play those games with a diesel engine - I've spent too
many hours tearing tractor engines and fuel systems apart to clean out
what was supposed to be "good" diesel to begin with. Even minor
contamination will kill a standard diesel - I'm sure Bill can tell all
sorts of stories about trucks and a dirty fuel load.
There is a world of difference between an otto cycle diesel and a
turbine engine - they work on entirely different thermal principles -
so what works for one will not necessarily (or even probably) work for
the other. I'm mainly pulling Bill's chain since he seemed to group
diesels and turbines as a fuel class.
On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:57:26 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
> So will just any old kind of 'fuel' work in a Jeep diesel then?
>
> Mike
>
> Will Honea wrote:
> >
> > Actually, Mike, he is correct in one respect - a jet turbine will run
> > on about anything that can be pumped thru the fuel system andl ignite.
> > It's been 30+ years, but all the older jets I flew had a page or two
> > in the flight manuls listing alternate fuels in order of preference.
> > It noted all sorts of operational restrictions when we had to stray
> > from JP4, but the list had some surprising and interesting alternates
> > listed. I do remember that Jet A/B were the preferred alternates but
> > Av gas (115/145) was right up there as was leaded automotive fuel as
> > well as commercial kerosene and ethanol. I don't recall which spec it
> > was, but commercial diesel was also on the list. The caveats were
> > that virtually everything required flight at temperatures well above
> > the rated operational altitude for JP4 and most would affect EGT
> > pretty dramatically. I never tried it, but a couple of guys who did
> > said that starting a J85 on av gas without over-temping the tailpipe
> > was virtually impossible. Some alternates were specifically limited
> > to emergency use and one-time flight only, and just about anything
> > besides Jet A/B required anything from a local teardown to a depot
> > overhaul after use. Leaded auto fuel required replacing the turbine
> > buckets due to the deposits. That was just for the engine - one Chief
> > of Maintainence always briefed that if he every had to purge the
> > tanks, etc. on one of his birds, the responsible pilot would gain a
> > permanent 2 octave boost to his vocal range.
> >
> > On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:44:03 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Seeing as both of your qualifications mean ---- on the internet, Bill is
> > > 100% correct....
> > >
> > > 'I' have no qualifications and 'I' think saying you can use Coleman or
> > > pump gas in a Jet engine in a pinch is BS.
> > >
> > > Something like saying you can add a gallon or two of gas to a tank of
> > > diesel to get you to a gas station. Very dangerous advice.
> > >
> > > Ah Yup, maybe some 'can' do that, but to say that in a world wide forum
> > > is wrong in my mind.
> > >
> > > Hey, I could be wrong, it sure wouldn't be the first time, but.....
> > >
> > > I see too much of 'If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em
> > > with BS' in that post.
> > >
> > > And do you know what? Jeeps don't even use diesel engines!
> > >
> > > LOL!
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > >
> > > "L.W.(ßill) ------ III" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > YOU ARE WRONG! Dam it! Use the internet and look for yourself!
> > > > You're going to kill someone!
> > > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> > > >
> > > > Ted Azito wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > If they don't show very different levels for Jet-A (JP-5) and Jet-B
> > > > > (JP-4) then it's their chart that's wrong.
> > > > >
> > > > > Every airport in the country big enough to sell jet fuel has a fuel
> > > > > truck which is amost always diesel and is almost always operated on
> > > > > Jet A for convenience. Call the local FBO, don't take my word for it.
> > > > >
> > > > > All aircraft turbine engines will start and run on #1 or #2 diesel,
> > > > > or for that matter car gas, avgas, K-1 Kero, Coleman fuel, or a bunch
> > > > > of other things. The _legal_ fuel for certificated aircraft is what is
> > > > > specified on the aircraft's Type Certificate Data Sheet, and is almost
> > > > > always Jet-A and whatever other alternate and emergency fuels the
> > > > > Flight Manual specifies, if any, and under the specified limits. Some
> > > > > aircraft-like piston airplanes have for legally burning car gas-have a
> > > > > Supplemental Type Certificate enabling sustained use of other fuels,
> > > > > again under certain conditions. Ag operators run PT6 Pratt powered
> > > > > aircraft on #2 Diesel routinely, legally, and safely.
> > > > >
> > > > > Legality aside should you put diesel fuel in your Lear? Probably not,
> > > > > since although the engines may burn it satisffactorily, the fuel lines
> > > > > will freeze up at cruise altitude and you will flame out and possibly
> > > > > tear up the fuel controllers. On the other hand I know a guy who runs
> > > > > his Soloy Bell 47G on diesel fuel and since he lives in Mississippi
> > > > > and never flies more than two or three thousand feet AGL-and his fuel
> > > > > never gets colder than 40 (above) F.-it'll never cause a problem. (He
> > > > > did trim his fuel controller on the diesel fuel. Important.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Generally turbine operators, except ag operators and homebuilders
> > > > > with surplus or converted APU engines, are not price conscious and
> > > > > that's why jet fuel costs what FBOs charge. Wholesale it's price is
> > > > > about the same as diesel.
> > > > >
> > > > > I know this is hard information for many people to comprehend, but if
> > > > > you will ask a petroleum engineer _who has worked with these fuels_,
> > > > > or any shop dealing with ST6 or ag/experimental PT6 applications, they
> > > > > will verify that it is so. I really have been there and done that.
> >
> > --
> > Will Honea
--
Will Honea
part. That's basically a blow torch - spray fuel out the nozzle and
light it. If it burns and sustains the flame, you're in business.
The USAF manuals I still have around for several models all specify
what will work in an emergency situation and what usable substitutes
are available. We had to keep a copy of the list because almost no
civilian field had JP4 and we were always winding up in some podunk
strip when Gulf coast weather caught us. The goal was to find
someplace with some sort of jet fuel but a lot of guys wound up at
some private strip or a crop duster operation - the jet I flew at the
time required about 4000' of runway and I put one down on a 1500' dirt
strip, so we could use about anyplace when home plate socked in. Now
that I think about it, I did come home on 115/145 avgas from that one.
They poured walnut shells thru the engine to clean it, then pulled
the turbine to inspect the blades for cracks (avgas burns hotter in
that case) and deposits. I got to fly the test flights before the
bird was released for unrestricted flight after that.
I would NOT play those games with a diesel engine - I've spent too
many hours tearing tractor engines and fuel systems apart to clean out
what was supposed to be "good" diesel to begin with. Even minor
contamination will kill a standard diesel - I'm sure Bill can tell all
sorts of stories about trucks and a dirty fuel load.
There is a world of difference between an otto cycle diesel and a
turbine engine - they work on entirely different thermal principles -
so what works for one will not necessarily (or even probably) work for
the other. I'm mainly pulling Bill's chain since he seemed to group
diesels and turbines as a fuel class.
On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:57:26 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
> So will just any old kind of 'fuel' work in a Jeep diesel then?
>
> Mike
>
> Will Honea wrote:
> >
> > Actually, Mike, he is correct in one respect - a jet turbine will run
> > on about anything that can be pumped thru the fuel system andl ignite.
> > It's been 30+ years, but all the older jets I flew had a page or two
> > in the flight manuls listing alternate fuels in order of preference.
> > It noted all sorts of operational restrictions when we had to stray
> > from JP4, but the list had some surprising and interesting alternates
> > listed. I do remember that Jet A/B were the preferred alternates but
> > Av gas (115/145) was right up there as was leaded automotive fuel as
> > well as commercial kerosene and ethanol. I don't recall which spec it
> > was, but commercial diesel was also on the list. The caveats were
> > that virtually everything required flight at temperatures well above
> > the rated operational altitude for JP4 and most would affect EGT
> > pretty dramatically. I never tried it, but a couple of guys who did
> > said that starting a J85 on av gas without over-temping the tailpipe
> > was virtually impossible. Some alternates were specifically limited
> > to emergency use and one-time flight only, and just about anything
> > besides Jet A/B required anything from a local teardown to a depot
> > overhaul after use. Leaded auto fuel required replacing the turbine
> > buckets due to the deposits. That was just for the engine - one Chief
> > of Maintainence always briefed that if he every had to purge the
> > tanks, etc. on one of his birds, the responsible pilot would gain a
> > permanent 2 octave boost to his vocal range.
> >
> > On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:44:03 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Seeing as both of your qualifications mean ---- on the internet, Bill is
> > > 100% correct....
> > >
> > > 'I' have no qualifications and 'I' think saying you can use Coleman or
> > > pump gas in a Jet engine in a pinch is BS.
> > >
> > > Something like saying you can add a gallon or two of gas to a tank of
> > > diesel to get you to a gas station. Very dangerous advice.
> > >
> > > Ah Yup, maybe some 'can' do that, but to say that in a world wide forum
> > > is wrong in my mind.
> > >
> > > Hey, I could be wrong, it sure wouldn't be the first time, but.....
> > >
> > > I see too much of 'If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em
> > > with BS' in that post.
> > >
> > > And do you know what? Jeeps don't even use diesel engines!
> > >
> > > LOL!
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > >
> > > "L.W.(ßill) ------ III" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > YOU ARE WRONG! Dam it! Use the internet and look for yourself!
> > > > You're going to kill someone!
> > > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> > > >
> > > > Ted Azito wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > If they don't show very different levels for Jet-A (JP-5) and Jet-B
> > > > > (JP-4) then it's their chart that's wrong.
> > > > >
> > > > > Every airport in the country big enough to sell jet fuel has a fuel
> > > > > truck which is amost always diesel and is almost always operated on
> > > > > Jet A for convenience. Call the local FBO, don't take my word for it.
> > > > >
> > > > > All aircraft turbine engines will start and run on #1 or #2 diesel,
> > > > > or for that matter car gas, avgas, K-1 Kero, Coleman fuel, or a bunch
> > > > > of other things. The _legal_ fuel for certificated aircraft is what is
> > > > > specified on the aircraft's Type Certificate Data Sheet, and is almost
> > > > > always Jet-A and whatever other alternate and emergency fuels the
> > > > > Flight Manual specifies, if any, and under the specified limits. Some
> > > > > aircraft-like piston airplanes have for legally burning car gas-have a
> > > > > Supplemental Type Certificate enabling sustained use of other fuels,
> > > > > again under certain conditions. Ag operators run PT6 Pratt powered
> > > > > aircraft on #2 Diesel routinely, legally, and safely.
> > > > >
> > > > > Legality aside should you put diesel fuel in your Lear? Probably not,
> > > > > since although the engines may burn it satisffactorily, the fuel lines
> > > > > will freeze up at cruise altitude and you will flame out and possibly
> > > > > tear up the fuel controllers. On the other hand I know a guy who runs
> > > > > his Soloy Bell 47G on diesel fuel and since he lives in Mississippi
> > > > > and never flies more than two or three thousand feet AGL-and his fuel
> > > > > never gets colder than 40 (above) F.-it'll never cause a problem. (He
> > > > > did trim his fuel controller on the diesel fuel. Important.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Generally turbine operators, except ag operators and homebuilders
> > > > > with surplus or converted APU engines, are not price conscious and
> > > > > that's why jet fuel costs what FBOs charge. Wholesale it's price is
> > > > > about the same as diesel.
> > > > >
> > > > > I know this is hard information for many people to comprehend, but if
> > > > > you will ask a petroleum engineer _who has worked with these fuels_,
> > > > > or any shop dealing with ST6 or ag/experimental PT6 applications, they
> > > > > will verify that it is so. I really have been there and done that.
> >
> > --
> > Will Honea
--
Will Honea
#95
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: ******/Ford Engine Swap? Possible?
Different story entirely - I was just commenting on the jet turbine
part. That's basically a blow torch - spray fuel out the nozzle and
light it. If it burns and sustains the flame, you're in business.
The USAF manuals I still have around for several models all specify
what will work in an emergency situation and what usable substitutes
are available. We had to keep a copy of the list because almost no
civilian field had JP4 and we were always winding up in some podunk
strip when Gulf coast weather caught us. The goal was to find
someplace with some sort of jet fuel but a lot of guys wound up at
some private strip or a crop duster operation - the jet I flew at the
time required about 4000' of runway and I put one down on a 1500' dirt
strip, so we could use about anyplace when home plate socked in. Now
that I think about it, I did come home on 115/145 avgas from that one.
They poured walnut shells thru the engine to clean it, then pulled
the turbine to inspect the blades for cracks (avgas burns hotter in
that case) and deposits. I got to fly the test flights before the
bird was released for unrestricted flight after that.
I would NOT play those games with a diesel engine - I've spent too
many hours tearing tractor engines and fuel systems apart to clean out
what was supposed to be "good" diesel to begin with. Even minor
contamination will kill a standard diesel - I'm sure Bill can tell all
sorts of stories about trucks and a dirty fuel load.
There is a world of difference between an otto cycle diesel and a
turbine engine - they work on entirely different thermal principles -
so what works for one will not necessarily (or even probably) work for
the other. I'm mainly pulling Bill's chain since he seemed to group
diesels and turbines as a fuel class.
On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:57:26 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
> So will just any old kind of 'fuel' work in a Jeep diesel then?
>
> Mike
>
> Will Honea wrote:
> >
> > Actually, Mike, he is correct in one respect - a jet turbine will run
> > on about anything that can be pumped thru the fuel system andl ignite.
> > It's been 30+ years, but all the older jets I flew had a page or two
> > in the flight manuls listing alternate fuels in order of preference.
> > It noted all sorts of operational restrictions when we had to stray
> > from JP4, but the list had some surprising and interesting alternates
> > listed. I do remember that Jet A/B were the preferred alternates but
> > Av gas (115/145) was right up there as was leaded automotive fuel as
> > well as commercial kerosene and ethanol. I don't recall which spec it
> > was, but commercial diesel was also on the list. The caveats were
> > that virtually everything required flight at temperatures well above
> > the rated operational altitude for JP4 and most would affect EGT
> > pretty dramatically. I never tried it, but a couple of guys who did
> > said that starting a J85 on av gas without over-temping the tailpipe
> > was virtually impossible. Some alternates were specifically limited
> > to emergency use and one-time flight only, and just about anything
> > besides Jet A/B required anything from a local teardown to a depot
> > overhaul after use. Leaded auto fuel required replacing the turbine
> > buckets due to the deposits. That was just for the engine - one Chief
> > of Maintainence always briefed that if he every had to purge the
> > tanks, etc. on one of his birds, the responsible pilot would gain a
> > permanent 2 octave boost to his vocal range.
> >
> > On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:44:03 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Seeing as both of your qualifications mean ---- on the internet, Bill is
> > > 100% correct....
> > >
> > > 'I' have no qualifications and 'I' think saying you can use Coleman or
> > > pump gas in a Jet engine in a pinch is BS.
> > >
> > > Something like saying you can add a gallon or two of gas to a tank of
> > > diesel to get you to a gas station. Very dangerous advice.
> > >
> > > Ah Yup, maybe some 'can' do that, but to say that in a world wide forum
> > > is wrong in my mind.
> > >
> > > Hey, I could be wrong, it sure wouldn't be the first time, but.....
> > >
> > > I see too much of 'If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em
> > > with BS' in that post.
> > >
> > > And do you know what? Jeeps don't even use diesel engines!
> > >
> > > LOL!
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > >
> > > "L.W.(ßill) ------ III" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > YOU ARE WRONG! Dam it! Use the internet and look for yourself!
> > > > You're going to kill someone!
> > > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> > > >
> > > > Ted Azito wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > If they don't show very different levels for Jet-A (JP-5) and Jet-B
> > > > > (JP-4) then it's their chart that's wrong.
> > > > >
> > > > > Every airport in the country big enough to sell jet fuel has a fuel
> > > > > truck which is amost always diesel and is almost always operated on
> > > > > Jet A for convenience. Call the local FBO, don't take my word for it.
> > > > >
> > > > > All aircraft turbine engines will start and run on #1 or #2 diesel,
> > > > > or for that matter car gas, avgas, K-1 Kero, Coleman fuel, or a bunch
> > > > > of other things. The _legal_ fuel for certificated aircraft is what is
> > > > > specified on the aircraft's Type Certificate Data Sheet, and is almost
> > > > > always Jet-A and whatever other alternate and emergency fuels the
> > > > > Flight Manual specifies, if any, and under the specified limits. Some
> > > > > aircraft-like piston airplanes have for legally burning car gas-have a
> > > > > Supplemental Type Certificate enabling sustained use of other fuels,
> > > > > again under certain conditions. Ag operators run PT6 Pratt powered
> > > > > aircraft on #2 Diesel routinely, legally, and safely.
> > > > >
> > > > > Legality aside should you put diesel fuel in your Lear? Probably not,
> > > > > since although the engines may burn it satisffactorily, the fuel lines
> > > > > will freeze up at cruise altitude and you will flame out and possibly
> > > > > tear up the fuel controllers. On the other hand I know a guy who runs
> > > > > his Soloy Bell 47G on diesel fuel and since he lives in Mississippi
> > > > > and never flies more than two or three thousand feet AGL-and his fuel
> > > > > never gets colder than 40 (above) F.-it'll never cause a problem. (He
> > > > > did trim his fuel controller on the diesel fuel. Important.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Generally turbine operators, except ag operators and homebuilders
> > > > > with surplus or converted APU engines, are not price conscious and
> > > > > that's why jet fuel costs what FBOs charge. Wholesale it's price is
> > > > > about the same as diesel.
> > > > >
> > > > > I know this is hard information for many people to comprehend, but if
> > > > > you will ask a petroleum engineer _who has worked with these fuels_,
> > > > > or any shop dealing with ST6 or ag/experimental PT6 applications, they
> > > > > will verify that it is so. I really have been there and done that.
> >
> > --
> > Will Honea
--
Will Honea
part. That's basically a blow torch - spray fuel out the nozzle and
light it. If it burns and sustains the flame, you're in business.
The USAF manuals I still have around for several models all specify
what will work in an emergency situation and what usable substitutes
are available. We had to keep a copy of the list because almost no
civilian field had JP4 and we were always winding up in some podunk
strip when Gulf coast weather caught us. The goal was to find
someplace with some sort of jet fuel but a lot of guys wound up at
some private strip or a crop duster operation - the jet I flew at the
time required about 4000' of runway and I put one down on a 1500' dirt
strip, so we could use about anyplace when home plate socked in. Now
that I think about it, I did come home on 115/145 avgas from that one.
They poured walnut shells thru the engine to clean it, then pulled
the turbine to inspect the blades for cracks (avgas burns hotter in
that case) and deposits. I got to fly the test flights before the
bird was released for unrestricted flight after that.
I would NOT play those games with a diesel engine - I've spent too
many hours tearing tractor engines and fuel systems apart to clean out
what was supposed to be "good" diesel to begin with. Even minor
contamination will kill a standard diesel - I'm sure Bill can tell all
sorts of stories about trucks and a dirty fuel load.
There is a world of difference between an otto cycle diesel and a
turbine engine - they work on entirely different thermal principles -
so what works for one will not necessarily (or even probably) work for
the other. I'm mainly pulling Bill's chain since he seemed to group
diesels and turbines as a fuel class.
On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:57:26 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
> So will just any old kind of 'fuel' work in a Jeep diesel then?
>
> Mike
>
> Will Honea wrote:
> >
> > Actually, Mike, he is correct in one respect - a jet turbine will run
> > on about anything that can be pumped thru the fuel system andl ignite.
> > It's been 30+ years, but all the older jets I flew had a page or two
> > in the flight manuls listing alternate fuels in order of preference.
> > It noted all sorts of operational restrictions when we had to stray
> > from JP4, but the list had some surprising and interesting alternates
> > listed. I do remember that Jet A/B were the preferred alternates but
> > Av gas (115/145) was right up there as was leaded automotive fuel as
> > well as commercial kerosene and ethanol. I don't recall which spec it
> > was, but commercial diesel was also on the list. The caveats were
> > that virtually everything required flight at temperatures well above
> > the rated operational altitude for JP4 and most would affect EGT
> > pretty dramatically. I never tried it, but a couple of guys who did
> > said that starting a J85 on av gas without over-temping the tailpipe
> > was virtually impossible. Some alternates were specifically limited
> > to emergency use and one-time flight only, and just about anything
> > besides Jet A/B required anything from a local teardown to a depot
> > overhaul after use. Leaded auto fuel required replacing the turbine
> > buckets due to the deposits. That was just for the engine - one Chief
> > of Maintainence always briefed that if he every had to purge the
> > tanks, etc. on one of his birds, the responsible pilot would gain a
> > permanent 2 octave boost to his vocal range.
> >
> > On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:44:03 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Seeing as both of your qualifications mean ---- on the internet, Bill is
> > > 100% correct....
> > >
> > > 'I' have no qualifications and 'I' think saying you can use Coleman or
> > > pump gas in a Jet engine in a pinch is BS.
> > >
> > > Something like saying you can add a gallon or two of gas to a tank of
> > > diesel to get you to a gas station. Very dangerous advice.
> > >
> > > Ah Yup, maybe some 'can' do that, but to say that in a world wide forum
> > > is wrong in my mind.
> > >
> > > Hey, I could be wrong, it sure wouldn't be the first time, but.....
> > >
> > > I see too much of 'If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em
> > > with BS' in that post.
> > >
> > > And do you know what? Jeeps don't even use diesel engines!
> > >
> > > LOL!
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > >
> > > "L.W.(ßill) ------ III" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > YOU ARE WRONG! Dam it! Use the internet and look for yourself!
> > > > You're going to kill someone!
> > > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> > > >
> > > > Ted Azito wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > If they don't show very different levels for Jet-A (JP-5) and Jet-B
> > > > > (JP-4) then it's their chart that's wrong.
> > > > >
> > > > > Every airport in the country big enough to sell jet fuel has a fuel
> > > > > truck which is amost always diesel and is almost always operated on
> > > > > Jet A for convenience. Call the local FBO, don't take my word for it.
> > > > >
> > > > > All aircraft turbine engines will start and run on #1 or #2 diesel,
> > > > > or for that matter car gas, avgas, K-1 Kero, Coleman fuel, or a bunch
> > > > > of other things. The _legal_ fuel for certificated aircraft is what is
> > > > > specified on the aircraft's Type Certificate Data Sheet, and is almost
> > > > > always Jet-A and whatever other alternate and emergency fuels the
> > > > > Flight Manual specifies, if any, and under the specified limits. Some
> > > > > aircraft-like piston airplanes have for legally burning car gas-have a
> > > > > Supplemental Type Certificate enabling sustained use of other fuels,
> > > > > again under certain conditions. Ag operators run PT6 Pratt powered
> > > > > aircraft on #2 Diesel routinely, legally, and safely.
> > > > >
> > > > > Legality aside should you put diesel fuel in your Lear? Probably not,
> > > > > since although the engines may burn it satisffactorily, the fuel lines
> > > > > will freeze up at cruise altitude and you will flame out and possibly
> > > > > tear up the fuel controllers. On the other hand I know a guy who runs
> > > > > his Soloy Bell 47G on diesel fuel and since he lives in Mississippi
> > > > > and never flies more than two or three thousand feet AGL-and his fuel
> > > > > never gets colder than 40 (above) F.-it'll never cause a problem. (He
> > > > > did trim his fuel controller on the diesel fuel. Important.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Generally turbine operators, except ag operators and homebuilders
> > > > > with surplus or converted APU engines, are not price conscious and
> > > > > that's why jet fuel costs what FBOs charge. Wholesale it's price is
> > > > > about the same as diesel.
> > > > >
> > > > > I know this is hard information for many people to comprehend, but if
> > > > > you will ask a petroleum engineer _who has worked with these fuels_,
> > > > > or any shop dealing with ST6 or ag/experimental PT6 applications, they
> > > > > will verify that it is so. I really have been there and done that.
> >
> > --
> > Will Honea
--
Will Honea
#96
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: ******/Ford Engine Swap? Possible?
Different story entirely - I was just commenting on the jet turbine
part. That's basically a blow torch - spray fuel out the nozzle and
light it. If it burns and sustains the flame, you're in business.
The USAF manuals I still have around for several models all specify
what will work in an emergency situation and what usable substitutes
are available. We had to keep a copy of the list because almost no
civilian field had JP4 and we were always winding up in some podunk
strip when Gulf coast weather caught us. The goal was to find
someplace with some sort of jet fuel but a lot of guys wound up at
some private strip or a crop duster operation - the jet I flew at the
time required about 4000' of runway and I put one down on a 1500' dirt
strip, so we could use about anyplace when home plate socked in. Now
that I think about it, I did come home on 115/145 avgas from that one.
They poured walnut shells thru the engine to clean it, then pulled
the turbine to inspect the blades for cracks (avgas burns hotter in
that case) and deposits. I got to fly the test flights before the
bird was released for unrestricted flight after that.
I would NOT play those games with a diesel engine - I've spent too
many hours tearing tractor engines and fuel systems apart to clean out
what was supposed to be "good" diesel to begin with. Even minor
contamination will kill a standard diesel - I'm sure Bill can tell all
sorts of stories about trucks and a dirty fuel load.
There is a world of difference between an otto cycle diesel and a
turbine engine - they work on entirely different thermal principles -
so what works for one will not necessarily (or even probably) work for
the other. I'm mainly pulling Bill's chain since he seemed to group
diesels and turbines as a fuel class.
On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:57:26 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
> So will just any old kind of 'fuel' work in a Jeep diesel then?
>
> Mike
>
> Will Honea wrote:
> >
> > Actually, Mike, he is correct in one respect - a jet turbine will run
> > on about anything that can be pumped thru the fuel system andl ignite.
> > It's been 30+ years, but all the older jets I flew had a page or two
> > in the flight manuls listing alternate fuels in order of preference.
> > It noted all sorts of operational restrictions when we had to stray
> > from JP4, but the list had some surprising and interesting alternates
> > listed. I do remember that Jet A/B were the preferred alternates but
> > Av gas (115/145) was right up there as was leaded automotive fuel as
> > well as commercial kerosene and ethanol. I don't recall which spec it
> > was, but commercial diesel was also on the list. The caveats were
> > that virtually everything required flight at temperatures well above
> > the rated operational altitude for JP4 and most would affect EGT
> > pretty dramatically. I never tried it, but a couple of guys who did
> > said that starting a J85 on av gas without over-temping the tailpipe
> > was virtually impossible. Some alternates were specifically limited
> > to emergency use and one-time flight only, and just about anything
> > besides Jet A/B required anything from a local teardown to a depot
> > overhaul after use. Leaded auto fuel required replacing the turbine
> > buckets due to the deposits. That was just for the engine - one Chief
> > of Maintainence always briefed that if he every had to purge the
> > tanks, etc. on one of his birds, the responsible pilot would gain a
> > permanent 2 octave boost to his vocal range.
> >
> > On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:44:03 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Seeing as both of your qualifications mean ---- on the internet, Bill is
> > > 100% correct....
> > >
> > > 'I' have no qualifications and 'I' think saying you can use Coleman or
> > > pump gas in a Jet engine in a pinch is BS.
> > >
> > > Something like saying you can add a gallon or two of gas to a tank of
> > > diesel to get you to a gas station. Very dangerous advice.
> > >
> > > Ah Yup, maybe some 'can' do that, but to say that in a world wide forum
> > > is wrong in my mind.
> > >
> > > Hey, I could be wrong, it sure wouldn't be the first time, but.....
> > >
> > > I see too much of 'If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em
> > > with BS' in that post.
> > >
> > > And do you know what? Jeeps don't even use diesel engines!
> > >
> > > LOL!
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > >
> > > "L.W.(ßill) ------ III" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > YOU ARE WRONG! Dam it! Use the internet and look for yourself!
> > > > You're going to kill someone!
> > > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> > > >
> > > > Ted Azito wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > If they don't show very different levels for Jet-A (JP-5) and Jet-B
> > > > > (JP-4) then it's their chart that's wrong.
> > > > >
> > > > > Every airport in the country big enough to sell jet fuel has a fuel
> > > > > truck which is amost always diesel and is almost always operated on
> > > > > Jet A for convenience. Call the local FBO, don't take my word for it.
> > > > >
> > > > > All aircraft turbine engines will start and run on #1 or #2 diesel,
> > > > > or for that matter car gas, avgas, K-1 Kero, Coleman fuel, or a bunch
> > > > > of other things. The _legal_ fuel for certificated aircraft is what is
> > > > > specified on the aircraft's Type Certificate Data Sheet, and is almost
> > > > > always Jet-A and whatever other alternate and emergency fuels the
> > > > > Flight Manual specifies, if any, and under the specified limits. Some
> > > > > aircraft-like piston airplanes have for legally burning car gas-have a
> > > > > Supplemental Type Certificate enabling sustained use of other fuels,
> > > > > again under certain conditions. Ag operators run PT6 Pratt powered
> > > > > aircraft on #2 Diesel routinely, legally, and safely.
> > > > >
> > > > > Legality aside should you put diesel fuel in your Lear? Probably not,
> > > > > since although the engines may burn it satisffactorily, the fuel lines
> > > > > will freeze up at cruise altitude and you will flame out and possibly
> > > > > tear up the fuel controllers. On the other hand I know a guy who runs
> > > > > his Soloy Bell 47G on diesel fuel and since he lives in Mississippi
> > > > > and never flies more than two or three thousand feet AGL-and his fuel
> > > > > never gets colder than 40 (above) F.-it'll never cause a problem. (He
> > > > > did trim his fuel controller on the diesel fuel. Important.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Generally turbine operators, except ag operators and homebuilders
> > > > > with surplus or converted APU engines, are not price conscious and
> > > > > that's why jet fuel costs what FBOs charge. Wholesale it's price is
> > > > > about the same as diesel.
> > > > >
> > > > > I know this is hard information for many people to comprehend, but if
> > > > > you will ask a petroleum engineer _who has worked with these fuels_,
> > > > > or any shop dealing with ST6 or ag/experimental PT6 applications, they
> > > > > will verify that it is so. I really have been there and done that.
> >
> > --
> > Will Honea
--
Will Honea
part. That's basically a blow torch - spray fuel out the nozzle and
light it. If it burns and sustains the flame, you're in business.
The USAF manuals I still have around for several models all specify
what will work in an emergency situation and what usable substitutes
are available. We had to keep a copy of the list because almost no
civilian field had JP4 and we were always winding up in some podunk
strip when Gulf coast weather caught us. The goal was to find
someplace with some sort of jet fuel but a lot of guys wound up at
some private strip or a crop duster operation - the jet I flew at the
time required about 4000' of runway and I put one down on a 1500' dirt
strip, so we could use about anyplace when home plate socked in. Now
that I think about it, I did come home on 115/145 avgas from that one.
They poured walnut shells thru the engine to clean it, then pulled
the turbine to inspect the blades for cracks (avgas burns hotter in
that case) and deposits. I got to fly the test flights before the
bird was released for unrestricted flight after that.
I would NOT play those games with a diesel engine - I've spent too
many hours tearing tractor engines and fuel systems apart to clean out
what was supposed to be "good" diesel to begin with. Even minor
contamination will kill a standard diesel - I'm sure Bill can tell all
sorts of stories about trucks and a dirty fuel load.
There is a world of difference between an otto cycle diesel and a
turbine engine - they work on entirely different thermal principles -
so what works for one will not necessarily (or even probably) work for
the other. I'm mainly pulling Bill's chain since he seemed to group
diesels and turbines as a fuel class.
On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:57:26 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
> So will just any old kind of 'fuel' work in a Jeep diesel then?
>
> Mike
>
> Will Honea wrote:
> >
> > Actually, Mike, he is correct in one respect - a jet turbine will run
> > on about anything that can be pumped thru the fuel system andl ignite.
> > It's been 30+ years, but all the older jets I flew had a page or two
> > in the flight manuls listing alternate fuels in order of preference.
> > It noted all sorts of operational restrictions when we had to stray
> > from JP4, but the list had some surprising and interesting alternates
> > listed. I do remember that Jet A/B were the preferred alternates but
> > Av gas (115/145) was right up there as was leaded automotive fuel as
> > well as commercial kerosene and ethanol. I don't recall which spec it
> > was, but commercial diesel was also on the list. The caveats were
> > that virtually everything required flight at temperatures well above
> > the rated operational altitude for JP4 and most would affect EGT
> > pretty dramatically. I never tried it, but a couple of guys who did
> > said that starting a J85 on av gas without over-temping the tailpipe
> > was virtually impossible. Some alternates were specifically limited
> > to emergency use and one-time flight only, and just about anything
> > besides Jet A/B required anything from a local teardown to a depot
> > overhaul after use. Leaded auto fuel required replacing the turbine
> > buckets due to the deposits. That was just for the engine - one Chief
> > of Maintainence always briefed that if he every had to purge the
> > tanks, etc. on one of his birds, the responsible pilot would gain a
> > permanent 2 octave boost to his vocal range.
> >
> > On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:44:03 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Seeing as both of your qualifications mean ---- on the internet, Bill is
> > > 100% correct....
> > >
> > > 'I' have no qualifications and 'I' think saying you can use Coleman or
> > > pump gas in a Jet engine in a pinch is BS.
> > >
> > > Something like saying you can add a gallon or two of gas to a tank of
> > > diesel to get you to a gas station. Very dangerous advice.
> > >
> > > Ah Yup, maybe some 'can' do that, but to say that in a world wide forum
> > > is wrong in my mind.
> > >
> > > Hey, I could be wrong, it sure wouldn't be the first time, but.....
> > >
> > > I see too much of 'If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em
> > > with BS' in that post.
> > >
> > > And do you know what? Jeeps don't even use diesel engines!
> > >
> > > LOL!
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > >
> > > "L.W.(ßill) ------ III" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > YOU ARE WRONG! Dam it! Use the internet and look for yourself!
> > > > You're going to kill someone!
> > > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> > > >
> > > > Ted Azito wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > If they don't show very different levels for Jet-A (JP-5) and Jet-B
> > > > > (JP-4) then it's their chart that's wrong.
> > > > >
> > > > > Every airport in the country big enough to sell jet fuel has a fuel
> > > > > truck which is amost always diesel and is almost always operated on
> > > > > Jet A for convenience. Call the local FBO, don't take my word for it.
> > > > >
> > > > > All aircraft turbine engines will start and run on #1 or #2 diesel,
> > > > > or for that matter car gas, avgas, K-1 Kero, Coleman fuel, or a bunch
> > > > > of other things. The _legal_ fuel for certificated aircraft is what is
> > > > > specified on the aircraft's Type Certificate Data Sheet, and is almost
> > > > > always Jet-A and whatever other alternate and emergency fuels the
> > > > > Flight Manual specifies, if any, and under the specified limits. Some
> > > > > aircraft-like piston airplanes have for legally burning car gas-have a
> > > > > Supplemental Type Certificate enabling sustained use of other fuels,
> > > > > again under certain conditions. Ag operators run PT6 Pratt powered
> > > > > aircraft on #2 Diesel routinely, legally, and safely.
> > > > >
> > > > > Legality aside should you put diesel fuel in your Lear? Probably not,
> > > > > since although the engines may burn it satisffactorily, the fuel lines
> > > > > will freeze up at cruise altitude and you will flame out and possibly
> > > > > tear up the fuel controllers. On the other hand I know a guy who runs
> > > > > his Soloy Bell 47G on diesel fuel and since he lives in Mississippi
> > > > > and never flies more than two or three thousand feet AGL-and his fuel
> > > > > never gets colder than 40 (above) F.-it'll never cause a problem. (He
> > > > > did trim his fuel controller on the diesel fuel. Important.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Generally turbine operators, except ag operators and homebuilders
> > > > > with surplus or converted APU engines, are not price conscious and
> > > > > that's why jet fuel costs what FBOs charge. Wholesale it's price is
> > > > > about the same as diesel.
> > > > >
> > > > > I know this is hard information for many people to comprehend, but if
> > > > > you will ask a petroleum engineer _who has worked with these fuels_,
> > > > > or any shop dealing with ST6 or ag/experimental PT6 applications, they
> > > > > will verify that it is so. I really have been there and done that.
> >
> > --
> > Will Honea
--
Will Honea
#97
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: ******/Ford Engine Swap? Possible?
Different story entirely - I was just commenting on the jet turbine
part. That's basically a blow torch - spray fuel out the nozzle and
light it. If it burns and sustains the flame, you're in business.
The USAF manuals I still have around for several models all specify
what will work in an emergency situation and what usable substitutes
are available. We had to keep a copy of the list because almost no
civilian field had JP4 and we were always winding up in some podunk
strip when Gulf coast weather caught us. The goal was to find
someplace with some sort of jet fuel but a lot of guys wound up at
some private strip or a crop duster operation - the jet I flew at the
time required about 4000' of runway and I put one down on a 1500' dirt
strip, so we could use about anyplace when home plate socked in. Now
that I think about it, I did come home on 115/145 avgas from that one.
They poured walnut shells thru the engine to clean it, then pulled
the turbine to inspect the blades for cracks (avgas burns hotter in
that case) and deposits. I got to fly the test flights before the
bird was released for unrestricted flight after that.
I would NOT play those games with a diesel engine - I've spent too
many hours tearing tractor engines and fuel systems apart to clean out
what was supposed to be "good" diesel to begin with. Even minor
contamination will kill a standard diesel - I'm sure Bill can tell all
sorts of stories about trucks and a dirty fuel load.
There is a world of difference between an otto cycle diesel and a
turbine engine - they work on entirely different thermal principles -
so what works for one will not necessarily (or even probably) work for
the other. I'm mainly pulling Bill's chain since he seemed to group
diesels and turbines as a fuel class.
On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:57:26 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
> So will just any old kind of 'fuel' work in a Jeep diesel then?
>
> Mike
>
> Will Honea wrote:
> >
> > Actually, Mike, he is correct in one respect - a jet turbine will run
> > on about anything that can be pumped thru the fuel system andl ignite.
> > It's been 30+ years, but all the older jets I flew had a page or two
> > in the flight manuls listing alternate fuels in order of preference.
> > It noted all sorts of operational restrictions when we had to stray
> > from JP4, but the list had some surprising and interesting alternates
> > listed. I do remember that Jet A/B were the preferred alternates but
> > Av gas (115/145) was right up there as was leaded automotive fuel as
> > well as commercial kerosene and ethanol. I don't recall which spec it
> > was, but commercial diesel was also on the list. The caveats were
> > that virtually everything required flight at temperatures well above
> > the rated operational altitude for JP4 and most would affect EGT
> > pretty dramatically. I never tried it, but a couple of guys who did
> > said that starting a J85 on av gas without over-temping the tailpipe
> > was virtually impossible. Some alternates were specifically limited
> > to emergency use and one-time flight only, and just about anything
> > besides Jet A/B required anything from a local teardown to a depot
> > overhaul after use. Leaded auto fuel required replacing the turbine
> > buckets due to the deposits. That was just for the engine - one Chief
> > of Maintainence always briefed that if he every had to purge the
> > tanks, etc. on one of his birds, the responsible pilot would gain a
> > permanent 2 octave boost to his vocal range.
> >
> > On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:44:03 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Seeing as both of your qualifications mean ---- on the internet, Bill is
> > > 100% correct....
> > >
> > > 'I' have no qualifications and 'I' think saying you can use Coleman or
> > > pump gas in a Jet engine in a pinch is BS.
> > >
> > > Something like saying you can add a gallon or two of gas to a tank of
> > > diesel to get you to a gas station. Very dangerous advice.
> > >
> > > Ah Yup, maybe some 'can' do that, but to say that in a world wide forum
> > > is wrong in my mind.
> > >
> > > Hey, I could be wrong, it sure wouldn't be the first time, but.....
> > >
> > > I see too much of 'If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em
> > > with BS' in that post.
> > >
> > > And do you know what? Jeeps don't even use diesel engines!
> > >
> > > LOL!
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > >
> > > "L.W.(ßill) ------ III" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > YOU ARE WRONG! Dam it! Use the internet and look for yourself!
> > > > You're going to kill someone!
> > > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> > > >
> > > > Ted Azito wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > If they don't show very different levels for Jet-A (JP-5) and Jet-B
> > > > > (JP-4) then it's their chart that's wrong.
> > > > >
> > > > > Every airport in the country big enough to sell jet fuel has a fuel
> > > > > truck which is amost always diesel and is almost always operated on
> > > > > Jet A for convenience. Call the local FBO, don't take my word for it.
> > > > >
> > > > > All aircraft turbine engines will start and run on #1 or #2 diesel,
> > > > > or for that matter car gas, avgas, K-1 Kero, Coleman fuel, or a bunch
> > > > > of other things. The _legal_ fuel for certificated aircraft is what is
> > > > > specified on the aircraft's Type Certificate Data Sheet, and is almost
> > > > > always Jet-A and whatever other alternate and emergency fuels the
> > > > > Flight Manual specifies, if any, and under the specified limits. Some
> > > > > aircraft-like piston airplanes have for legally burning car gas-have a
> > > > > Supplemental Type Certificate enabling sustained use of other fuels,
> > > > > again under certain conditions. Ag operators run PT6 Pratt powered
> > > > > aircraft on #2 Diesel routinely, legally, and safely.
> > > > >
> > > > > Legality aside should you put diesel fuel in your Lear? Probably not,
> > > > > since although the engines may burn it satisffactorily, the fuel lines
> > > > > will freeze up at cruise altitude and you will flame out and possibly
> > > > > tear up the fuel controllers. On the other hand I know a guy who runs
> > > > > his Soloy Bell 47G on diesel fuel and since he lives in Mississippi
> > > > > and never flies more than two or three thousand feet AGL-and his fuel
> > > > > never gets colder than 40 (above) F.-it'll never cause a problem. (He
> > > > > did trim his fuel controller on the diesel fuel. Important.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Generally turbine operators, except ag operators and homebuilders
> > > > > with surplus or converted APU engines, are not price conscious and
> > > > > that's why jet fuel costs what FBOs charge. Wholesale it's price is
> > > > > about the same as diesel.
> > > > >
> > > > > I know this is hard information for many people to comprehend, but if
> > > > > you will ask a petroleum engineer _who has worked with these fuels_,
> > > > > or any shop dealing with ST6 or ag/experimental PT6 applications, they
> > > > > will verify that it is so. I really have been there and done that.
> >
> > --
> > Will Honea
--
Will Honea
part. That's basically a blow torch - spray fuel out the nozzle and
light it. If it burns and sustains the flame, you're in business.
The USAF manuals I still have around for several models all specify
what will work in an emergency situation and what usable substitutes
are available. We had to keep a copy of the list because almost no
civilian field had JP4 and we were always winding up in some podunk
strip when Gulf coast weather caught us. The goal was to find
someplace with some sort of jet fuel but a lot of guys wound up at
some private strip or a crop duster operation - the jet I flew at the
time required about 4000' of runway and I put one down on a 1500' dirt
strip, so we could use about anyplace when home plate socked in. Now
that I think about it, I did come home on 115/145 avgas from that one.
They poured walnut shells thru the engine to clean it, then pulled
the turbine to inspect the blades for cracks (avgas burns hotter in
that case) and deposits. I got to fly the test flights before the
bird was released for unrestricted flight after that.
I would NOT play those games with a diesel engine - I've spent too
many hours tearing tractor engines and fuel systems apart to clean out
what was supposed to be "good" diesel to begin with. Even minor
contamination will kill a standard diesel - I'm sure Bill can tell all
sorts of stories about trucks and a dirty fuel load.
There is a world of difference between an otto cycle diesel and a
turbine engine - they work on entirely different thermal principles -
so what works for one will not necessarily (or even probably) work for
the other. I'm mainly pulling Bill's chain since he seemed to group
diesels and turbines as a fuel class.
On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:57:26 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
> So will just any old kind of 'fuel' work in a Jeep diesel then?
>
> Mike
>
> Will Honea wrote:
> >
> > Actually, Mike, he is correct in one respect - a jet turbine will run
> > on about anything that can be pumped thru the fuel system andl ignite.
> > It's been 30+ years, but all the older jets I flew had a page or two
> > in the flight manuls listing alternate fuels in order of preference.
> > It noted all sorts of operational restrictions when we had to stray
> > from JP4, but the list had some surprising and interesting alternates
> > listed. I do remember that Jet A/B were the preferred alternates but
> > Av gas (115/145) was right up there as was leaded automotive fuel as
> > well as commercial kerosene and ethanol. I don't recall which spec it
> > was, but commercial diesel was also on the list. The caveats were
> > that virtually everything required flight at temperatures well above
> > the rated operational altitude for JP4 and most would affect EGT
> > pretty dramatically. I never tried it, but a couple of guys who did
> > said that starting a J85 on av gas without over-temping the tailpipe
> > was virtually impossible. Some alternates were specifically limited
> > to emergency use and one-time flight only, and just about anything
> > besides Jet A/B required anything from a local teardown to a depot
> > overhaul after use. Leaded auto fuel required replacing the turbine
> > buckets due to the deposits. That was just for the engine - one Chief
> > of Maintainence always briefed that if he every had to purge the
> > tanks, etc. on one of his birds, the responsible pilot would gain a
> > permanent 2 octave boost to his vocal range.
> >
> > On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:44:03 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Seeing as both of your qualifications mean ---- on the internet, Bill is
> > > 100% correct....
> > >
> > > 'I' have no qualifications and 'I' think saying you can use Coleman or
> > > pump gas in a Jet engine in a pinch is BS.
> > >
> > > Something like saying you can add a gallon or two of gas to a tank of
> > > diesel to get you to a gas station. Very dangerous advice.
> > >
> > > Ah Yup, maybe some 'can' do that, but to say that in a world wide forum
> > > is wrong in my mind.
> > >
> > > Hey, I could be wrong, it sure wouldn't be the first time, but.....
> > >
> > > I see too much of 'If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em
> > > with BS' in that post.
> > >
> > > And do you know what? Jeeps don't even use diesel engines!
> > >
> > > LOL!
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > >
> > > "L.W.(ßill) ------ III" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > YOU ARE WRONG! Dam it! Use the internet and look for yourself!
> > > > You're going to kill someone!
> > > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> > > >
> > > > Ted Azito wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > If they don't show very different levels for Jet-A (JP-5) and Jet-B
> > > > > (JP-4) then it's their chart that's wrong.
> > > > >
> > > > > Every airport in the country big enough to sell jet fuel has a fuel
> > > > > truck which is amost always diesel and is almost always operated on
> > > > > Jet A for convenience. Call the local FBO, don't take my word for it.
> > > > >
> > > > > All aircraft turbine engines will start and run on #1 or #2 diesel,
> > > > > or for that matter car gas, avgas, K-1 Kero, Coleman fuel, or a bunch
> > > > > of other things. The _legal_ fuel for certificated aircraft is what is
> > > > > specified on the aircraft's Type Certificate Data Sheet, and is almost
> > > > > always Jet-A and whatever other alternate and emergency fuels the
> > > > > Flight Manual specifies, if any, and under the specified limits. Some
> > > > > aircraft-like piston airplanes have for legally burning car gas-have a
> > > > > Supplemental Type Certificate enabling sustained use of other fuels,
> > > > > again under certain conditions. Ag operators run PT6 Pratt powered
> > > > > aircraft on #2 Diesel routinely, legally, and safely.
> > > > >
> > > > > Legality aside should you put diesel fuel in your Lear? Probably not,
> > > > > since although the engines may burn it satisffactorily, the fuel lines
> > > > > will freeze up at cruise altitude and you will flame out and possibly
> > > > > tear up the fuel controllers. On the other hand I know a guy who runs
> > > > > his Soloy Bell 47G on diesel fuel and since he lives in Mississippi
> > > > > and never flies more than two or three thousand feet AGL-and his fuel
> > > > > never gets colder than 40 (above) F.-it'll never cause a problem. (He
> > > > > did trim his fuel controller on the diesel fuel. Important.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Generally turbine operators, except ag operators and homebuilders
> > > > > with surplus or converted APU engines, are not price conscious and
> > > > > that's why jet fuel costs what FBOs charge. Wholesale it's price is
> > > > > about the same as diesel.
> > > > >
> > > > > I know this is hard information for many people to comprehend, but if
> > > > > you will ask a petroleum engineer _who has worked with these fuels_,
> > > > > or any shop dealing with ST6 or ag/experimental PT6 applications, they
> > > > > will verify that it is so. I really have been there and done that.
> >
> > --
> > Will Honea
--
Will Honea
#98
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: ******/Ford Engine Swap? Possible?
Nope, I was trying my best to separate diesel and Jet fuels as in
this easily read diagram:
http://www.energyinst.org.uk/educati...as/chemist.htm and
chemical structures:
http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genche...html#petroleum
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Will Honea wrote:
>
> Different story entirely - I was just commenting on the jet turbine
> part. That's basically a blow torch - spray fuel out the nozzle and
> light it. If it burns and sustains the flame, you're in business.
> The USAF manuals I still have around for several models all specify
> what will work in an emergency situation and what usable substitutes
> are available. We had to keep a copy of the list because almost no
> civilian field had JP4 and we were always winding up in some podunk
> strip when Gulf coast weather caught us. The goal was to find
> someplace with some sort of jet fuel but a lot of guys wound up at
> some private strip or a crop duster operation - the jet I flew at the
> time required about 4000' of runway and I put one down on a 1500' dirt
> strip, so we could use about anyplace when home plate socked in. Now
> that I think about it, I did come home on 115/145 avgas from that one.
> They poured walnut shells thru the engine to clean it, then pulled
> the turbine to inspect the blades for cracks (avgas burns hotter in
> that case) and deposits. I got to fly the test flights before the
> bird was released for unrestricted flight after that.
>
> I would NOT play those games with a diesel engine - I've spent too
> many hours tearing tractor engines and fuel systems apart to clean out
> what was supposed to be "good" diesel to begin with. Even minor
> contamination will kill a standard diesel - I'm sure Bill can tell all
> sorts of stories about trucks and a dirty fuel load.
>
> There is a world of difference between an otto cycle diesel and a
> turbine engine - they work on entirely different thermal principles -
> so what works for one will not necessarily (or even probably) work for
> the other. I'm mainly pulling Bill's chain since he seemed to group
> diesels and turbines as a fuel class.
> --
> Will Honea
this easily read diagram:
http://www.energyinst.org.uk/educati...as/chemist.htm and
chemical structures:
http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genche...html#petroleum
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Will Honea wrote:
>
> Different story entirely - I was just commenting on the jet turbine
> part. That's basically a blow torch - spray fuel out the nozzle and
> light it. If it burns and sustains the flame, you're in business.
> The USAF manuals I still have around for several models all specify
> what will work in an emergency situation and what usable substitutes
> are available. We had to keep a copy of the list because almost no
> civilian field had JP4 and we were always winding up in some podunk
> strip when Gulf coast weather caught us. The goal was to find
> someplace with some sort of jet fuel but a lot of guys wound up at
> some private strip or a crop duster operation - the jet I flew at the
> time required about 4000' of runway and I put one down on a 1500' dirt
> strip, so we could use about anyplace when home plate socked in. Now
> that I think about it, I did come home on 115/145 avgas from that one.
> They poured walnut shells thru the engine to clean it, then pulled
> the turbine to inspect the blades for cracks (avgas burns hotter in
> that case) and deposits. I got to fly the test flights before the
> bird was released for unrestricted flight after that.
>
> I would NOT play those games with a diesel engine - I've spent too
> many hours tearing tractor engines and fuel systems apart to clean out
> what was supposed to be "good" diesel to begin with. Even minor
> contamination will kill a standard diesel - I'm sure Bill can tell all
> sorts of stories about trucks and a dirty fuel load.
>
> There is a world of difference between an otto cycle diesel and a
> turbine engine - they work on entirely different thermal principles -
> so what works for one will not necessarily (or even probably) work for
> the other. I'm mainly pulling Bill's chain since he seemed to group
> diesels and turbines as a fuel class.
> --
> Will Honea
#99
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: ******/Ford Engine Swap? Possible?
Nope, I was trying my best to separate diesel and Jet fuels as in
this easily read diagram:
http://www.energyinst.org.uk/educati...as/chemist.htm and
chemical structures:
http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genche...html#petroleum
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Will Honea wrote:
>
> Different story entirely - I was just commenting on the jet turbine
> part. That's basically a blow torch - spray fuel out the nozzle and
> light it. If it burns and sustains the flame, you're in business.
> The USAF manuals I still have around for several models all specify
> what will work in an emergency situation and what usable substitutes
> are available. We had to keep a copy of the list because almost no
> civilian field had JP4 and we were always winding up in some podunk
> strip when Gulf coast weather caught us. The goal was to find
> someplace with some sort of jet fuel but a lot of guys wound up at
> some private strip or a crop duster operation - the jet I flew at the
> time required about 4000' of runway and I put one down on a 1500' dirt
> strip, so we could use about anyplace when home plate socked in. Now
> that I think about it, I did come home on 115/145 avgas from that one.
> They poured walnut shells thru the engine to clean it, then pulled
> the turbine to inspect the blades for cracks (avgas burns hotter in
> that case) and deposits. I got to fly the test flights before the
> bird was released for unrestricted flight after that.
>
> I would NOT play those games with a diesel engine - I've spent too
> many hours tearing tractor engines and fuel systems apart to clean out
> what was supposed to be "good" diesel to begin with. Even minor
> contamination will kill a standard diesel - I'm sure Bill can tell all
> sorts of stories about trucks and a dirty fuel load.
>
> There is a world of difference between an otto cycle diesel and a
> turbine engine - they work on entirely different thermal principles -
> so what works for one will not necessarily (or even probably) work for
> the other. I'm mainly pulling Bill's chain since he seemed to group
> diesels and turbines as a fuel class.
> --
> Will Honea
this easily read diagram:
http://www.energyinst.org.uk/educati...as/chemist.htm and
chemical structures:
http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genche...html#petroleum
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Will Honea wrote:
>
> Different story entirely - I was just commenting on the jet turbine
> part. That's basically a blow torch - spray fuel out the nozzle and
> light it. If it burns and sustains the flame, you're in business.
> The USAF manuals I still have around for several models all specify
> what will work in an emergency situation and what usable substitutes
> are available. We had to keep a copy of the list because almost no
> civilian field had JP4 and we were always winding up in some podunk
> strip when Gulf coast weather caught us. The goal was to find
> someplace with some sort of jet fuel but a lot of guys wound up at
> some private strip or a crop duster operation - the jet I flew at the
> time required about 4000' of runway and I put one down on a 1500' dirt
> strip, so we could use about anyplace when home plate socked in. Now
> that I think about it, I did come home on 115/145 avgas from that one.
> They poured walnut shells thru the engine to clean it, then pulled
> the turbine to inspect the blades for cracks (avgas burns hotter in
> that case) and deposits. I got to fly the test flights before the
> bird was released for unrestricted flight after that.
>
> I would NOT play those games with a diesel engine - I've spent too
> many hours tearing tractor engines and fuel systems apart to clean out
> what was supposed to be "good" diesel to begin with. Even minor
> contamination will kill a standard diesel - I'm sure Bill can tell all
> sorts of stories about trucks and a dirty fuel load.
>
> There is a world of difference between an otto cycle diesel and a
> turbine engine - they work on entirely different thermal principles -
> so what works for one will not necessarily (or even probably) work for
> the other. I'm mainly pulling Bill's chain since he seemed to group
> diesels and turbines as a fuel class.
> --
> Will Honea
#100
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: ******/Ford Engine Swap? Possible?
Nope, I was trying my best to separate diesel and Jet fuels as in
this easily read diagram:
http://www.energyinst.org.uk/educati...as/chemist.htm and
chemical structures:
http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genche...html#petroleum
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Will Honea wrote:
>
> Different story entirely - I was just commenting on the jet turbine
> part. That's basically a blow torch - spray fuel out the nozzle and
> light it. If it burns and sustains the flame, you're in business.
> The USAF manuals I still have around for several models all specify
> what will work in an emergency situation and what usable substitutes
> are available. We had to keep a copy of the list because almost no
> civilian field had JP4 and we were always winding up in some podunk
> strip when Gulf coast weather caught us. The goal was to find
> someplace with some sort of jet fuel but a lot of guys wound up at
> some private strip or a crop duster operation - the jet I flew at the
> time required about 4000' of runway and I put one down on a 1500' dirt
> strip, so we could use about anyplace when home plate socked in. Now
> that I think about it, I did come home on 115/145 avgas from that one.
> They poured walnut shells thru the engine to clean it, then pulled
> the turbine to inspect the blades for cracks (avgas burns hotter in
> that case) and deposits. I got to fly the test flights before the
> bird was released for unrestricted flight after that.
>
> I would NOT play those games with a diesel engine - I've spent too
> many hours tearing tractor engines and fuel systems apart to clean out
> what was supposed to be "good" diesel to begin with. Even minor
> contamination will kill a standard diesel - I'm sure Bill can tell all
> sorts of stories about trucks and a dirty fuel load.
>
> There is a world of difference between an otto cycle diesel and a
> turbine engine - they work on entirely different thermal principles -
> so what works for one will not necessarily (or even probably) work for
> the other. I'm mainly pulling Bill's chain since he seemed to group
> diesels and turbines as a fuel class.
> --
> Will Honea
this easily read diagram:
http://www.energyinst.org.uk/educati...as/chemist.htm and
chemical structures:
http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genche...html#petroleum
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Will Honea wrote:
>
> Different story entirely - I was just commenting on the jet turbine
> part. That's basically a blow torch - spray fuel out the nozzle and
> light it. If it burns and sustains the flame, you're in business.
> The USAF manuals I still have around for several models all specify
> what will work in an emergency situation and what usable substitutes
> are available. We had to keep a copy of the list because almost no
> civilian field had JP4 and we were always winding up in some podunk
> strip when Gulf coast weather caught us. The goal was to find
> someplace with some sort of jet fuel but a lot of guys wound up at
> some private strip or a crop duster operation - the jet I flew at the
> time required about 4000' of runway and I put one down on a 1500' dirt
> strip, so we could use about anyplace when home plate socked in. Now
> that I think about it, I did come home on 115/145 avgas from that one.
> They poured walnut shells thru the engine to clean it, then pulled
> the turbine to inspect the blades for cracks (avgas burns hotter in
> that case) and deposits. I got to fly the test flights before the
> bird was released for unrestricted flight after that.
>
> I would NOT play those games with a diesel engine - I've spent too
> many hours tearing tractor engines and fuel systems apart to clean out
> what was supposed to be "good" diesel to begin with. Even minor
> contamination will kill a standard diesel - I'm sure Bill can tell all
> sorts of stories about trucks and a dirty fuel load.
>
> There is a world of difference between an otto cycle diesel and a
> turbine engine - they work on entirely different thermal principles -
> so what works for one will not necessarily (or even probably) work for
> the other. I'm mainly pulling Bill's chain since he seemed to group
> diesels and turbines as a fuel class.
> --
> Will Honea