Re: Switching Head bolts
 

finally man! congrats! now go break something else on it! heh-jeeping this
time though...

"William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
news:2g9tquFbc68U1@uni-berlin.de...
> Just had my engine rebuilt. New cam, new crank 10/10, new bearings, new
> pistons and rings, flywheel balanced and all married up to my 4.0L head
out
> the door.
>
> Now the R&R guy has noticed one of the head bolts is out of position for
the
> power steering bracket so he needs to switch them.
>
> Is there any problem switching two head bolts which reside side by side
> without going through the entire torquing sequence again?
>
> That is, can these two bolts be taking out, switched, put back in and
> torqued down without any problems?
>
>
> R&R guy says no problem.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill
>
>

Re: Switching Head bolts
 

Thanks Chris,
I'll question the rebuilder when I go in for a visual to extend the
warranty.

Thanks again,

Bill

"c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
news:w%Rnc.51052$u_4.16148@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> I just have to add my 2 cents here Bill. I hope to heck that whatever they
> do to fix the bolt problem works out for you. Things like this make me
glad
> that I rebuild my own stuff. Anyway, for what you paid for the rebuild, I
> would insist that they change the head gasket. I don't know what type of
> gasket they used, but some of them form quite a bond to the head and block
> surfaces, so relaxing the bolt torque could cause the gasket layers to
> separate slightly. Then it becomes leak time. Like Mike said, since there
> were different types of bolts for the heads, the guy should have at least
> asked you where the special bracket bolt belonged, unless he knew for sure
> (which he didn't). The second thing here that would raise a red flag is
the
> fact that the rebuilder didn't insist on changing the gasket after his
oops.
> I rebuild engines in my own shop and would never risk that. Is he going to
> do all the labor and reimburse you for your car rental, towing, etc. if
the
> gasket fails? If not, I would insist he change the gasket. The gasket is
> probably about $40 at most, and and hour or two of his time to do it
right.
> IMHO, this sounds like poor quality work.
>
> Chris
>
>
> "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> news:2ga6scFhuirU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > Ha ha.... I'm getting to know you well Mike. After the last post that
I
> > knew you'd have that reply as I was thinking I'd have the same reply.
:-)
> >
> > Thanks for the Devil's Advocate. I certainly hope my 'luck' doesn't
fall
> > into the 'bad' category from here out. I'm already shot to my bones
with
> > nerves on this one.
> >
> > Come on housing crash so I can afford my own garage :-)
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:409FE117.73D0C0AD@sympatico.ca...
> > > I just like to play the devil's advocate some days Bill, I hope it
works
> > > out great for you.
> > >
> > > Still, not knowing where the freaking bolts go sure doesn't instill
> > > confidence in the statement 'I choose him because he has done this mod
> > > before and is fully familiar with it.'
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Mike, the mechanic didn't put the thing together. The
> rebuilder/machine
> > > > shop did. They did the rebuild on the short block and put my
> previously
> > > > machined 4.0L head on it.
> > > >
> > > > There are two entities in this process. 1. the R&R guy, you can
call
> > him a
> > > > mechanic. 2. The Machine Shop/Rebuilder.
> > > >
> > > > #2 is the one who bolted the thing together and I choose him because
> he
> > has
> > > > done this mod before and is fully familiar with it. This guy has a
> > history
> > > > of jeeps including racing sand jeeps. He's the best I could find in
> > this
> > > > area for this application.
> > > >
> > > > And
> > > >
> > > > He warranties the work for a year.
> > > >
> > > > He confirmed that it would be no problem for #1 (mechanic) to change
> the
> > > > bolts so if he's wrong he'll have to fix it if it comes down to it.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Bill
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:409FD597.39970CF5@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > He already has a mis match on the head gasket Steve.
> > > > >
> > > > > He is putting a 4.0 head onto a 4.2 block. That makes it a
> 'twitchy'
> > > > > installation to start.
> > > > >
> > > > > 'I' would not take a chance on blowing a new engine for something
> that
> > > > > dumb.
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe that is just me, but.... If I forked out in the order of
$2K
> > plus
> > > > > I most certainly would not take a chance on a head gasket that
> 'might
> > or
> > > > > might not' be compromised.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have assembled and have seen assembled a whole pile of engines
> over
> > > > > the years and most people, let alone 'mechanics' stop and think
when
> > > > > they find 2 head bolts that are nutted studs instead of bolts.
> > > > >
> > > > > It seem 'logical' that these 'strange' bolt like things should go
> > > > > somewhere special eh?
> > > > >
> > > > > One is for the bracket, the other goes on the back drivers side
> corner
> > > > > for the ground strap to bolt onto.
> > > > >
> > > > > In all due fairness poor Bill's 'mechanic' is kinda on the brain
> dead
> > > > > side to just put it together wrong without checking wouldn't you
> say?
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > > Steve G wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've done it hundreds of times and there won't be a problem
> > switching
> > > > the
> > > > > > bolts and just re-torquing those two. In all probability it's
one
> of
> > the
> > > > > > outside bolts which are the last to be torqued in the sequence
> > anyways.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In all fairness to the mechanic Mike, these guys have no way of
> > knowing
> > > > > > which bolt is supposed to have the stud on it and different
> > > > installations
> > > > > > sometimes have different positions for that bolt. May not be
the
> > case
> > > > with
> > > > > > all 4.0, although I doubt that they all come the same way in
all
> > > > > > applications. I know for a fact lots of Pontiac, Buick and Olds
> > v-8's
> > > > would
> > > > > > have the head bolts with the stud on it in different locations
> > depending
> > > > on
> > > > > > what model vehicle it was going in and the assembler would have
no
> > way
> > > > of
> > > > > > knowing.
> > > > > > Steve G.
> > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:409FC445.928E9186@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > I don't know where some of these 'mechanics' come from....
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > He put the 'wrong' bolt in the hole.....
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Man oh man, if it wasn't for bad you wouldn't have any luck at
> all
> > > > would
> > > > > > > you?
> > > > > > > ;-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I for one most certainly would not accept a rebuilt engine
with
> an
> > > > > > > already 'blown' head gasket.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Head gaskets only compress once.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Just had my engine rebuilt. New cam, new crank 10/10, new
> > bearings,
> > > > new
> > > > > > > > pistons and rings, flywheel balanced and all married up to
my
> > 4.0L
> > > > head
> > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > the door.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Now the R&R guy has noticed one of the head bolts is out of
> > position
> > > > for
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > power steering bracket so he needs to switch them.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Is there any problem switching two head bolts which reside
> side
> > by
> > > > side
> > > > > > > > without going through the entire torquing sequence again?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That is, can these two bolts be taking out, switched, put
back
> > in
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > torqued down without any problems?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > R&R guy says no problem.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bill
> >
> >
>
>

Re: Switching Head bolts
 

Thanks Chris,
I'll question the rebuilder when I go in for a visual to extend the
warranty.

Thanks again,

Bill

"c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
news:w%Rnc.51052$u_4.16148@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> I just have to add my 2 cents here Bill. I hope to heck that whatever they
> do to fix the bolt problem works out for you. Things like this make me
glad
> that I rebuild my own stuff. Anyway, for what you paid for the rebuild, I
> would insist that they change the head gasket. I don't know what type of
> gasket they used, but some of them form quite a bond to the head and block
> surfaces, so relaxing the bolt torque could cause the gasket layers to
> separate slightly. Then it becomes leak time. Like Mike said, since there
> were different types of bolts for the heads, the guy should have at least
> asked you where the special bracket bolt belonged, unless he knew for sure
> (which he didn't). The second thing here that would raise a red flag is
the
> fact that the rebuilder didn't insist on changing the gasket after his
oops.
> I rebuild engines in my own shop and would never risk that. Is he going to
> do all the labor and reimburse you for your car rental, towing, etc. if
the
> gasket fails? If not, I would insist he change the gasket. The gasket is
> probably about $40 at most, and and hour or two of his time to do it
right.
> IMHO, this sounds like poor quality work.
>
> Chris
>
>
> "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> news:2ga6scFhuirU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > Ha ha.... I'm getting to know you well Mike. After the last post that
I
> > knew you'd have that reply as I was thinking I'd have the same reply.
:-)
> >
> > Thanks for the Devil's Advocate. I certainly hope my 'luck' doesn't
fall
> > into the 'bad' category from here out. I'm already shot to my bones
with
> > nerves on this one.
> >
> > Come on housing crash so I can afford my own garage :-)
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:409FE117.73D0C0AD@sympatico.ca...
> > > I just like to play the devil's advocate some days Bill, I hope it
works
> > > out great for you.
> > >
> > > Still, not knowing where the freaking bolts go sure doesn't instill
> > > confidence in the statement 'I choose him because he has done this mod
> > > before and is fully familiar with it.'
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Mike, the mechanic didn't put the thing together. The
> rebuilder/machine
> > > > shop did. They did the rebuild on the short block and put my
> previously
> > > > machined 4.0L head on it.
> > > >
> > > > There are two entities in this process. 1. the R&R guy, you can
call
> > him a
> > > > mechanic. 2. The Machine Shop/Rebuilder.
> > > >
> > > > #2 is the one who bolted the thing together and I choose him because
> he
> > has
> > > > done this mod before and is fully familiar with it. This guy has a
> > history
> > > > of jeeps including racing sand jeeps. He's the best I could find in
> > this
> > > > area for this application.
> > > >
> > > > And
> > > >
> > > > He warranties the work for a year.
> > > >
> > > > He confirmed that it would be no problem for #1 (mechanic) to change
> the
> > > > bolts so if he's wrong he'll have to fix it if it comes down to it.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Bill
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:409FD597.39970CF5@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > He already has a mis match on the head gasket Steve.
> > > > >
> > > > > He is putting a 4.0 head onto a 4.2 block. That makes it a
> 'twitchy'
> > > > > installation to start.
> > > > >
> > > > > 'I' would not take a chance on blowing a new engine for something
> that
> > > > > dumb.
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe that is just me, but.... If I forked out in the order of
$2K
> > plus
> > > > > I most certainly would not take a chance on a head gasket that
> 'might
> > or
> > > > > might not' be compromised.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have assembled and have seen assembled a whole pile of engines
> over
> > > > > the years and most people, let alone 'mechanics' stop and think
when
> > > > > they find 2 head bolts that are nutted studs instead of bolts.
> > > > >
> > > > > It seem 'logical' that these 'strange' bolt like things should go
> > > > > somewhere special eh?
> > > > >
> > > > > One is for the bracket, the other goes on the back drivers side
> corner
> > > > > for the ground strap to bolt onto.
> > > > >
> > > > > In all due fairness poor Bill's 'mechanic' is kinda on the brain
> dead
> > > > > side to just put it together wrong without checking wouldn't you
> say?
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > > Steve G wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've done it hundreds of times and there won't be a problem
> > switching
> > > > the
> > > > > > bolts and just re-torquing those two. In all probability it's
one
> of
> > the
> > > > > > outside bolts which are the last to be torqued in the sequence
> > anyways.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In all fairness to the mechanic Mike, these guys have no way of
> > knowing
> > > > > > which bolt is supposed to have the stud on it and different
> > > > installations
> > > > > > sometimes have different positions for that bolt. May not be
the
> > case
> > > > with
> > > > > > all 4.0, although I doubt that they all come the same way in
all
> > > > > > applications. I know for a fact lots of Pontiac, Buick and Olds
> > v-8's
> > > > would
> > > > > > have the head bolts with the stud on it in different locations
> > depending
> > > > on
> > > > > > what model vehicle it was going in and the assembler would have
no
> > way
> > > > of
> > > > > > knowing.
> > > > > > Steve G.
> > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:409FC445.928E9186@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > I don't know where some of these 'mechanics' come from....
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > He put the 'wrong' bolt in the hole.....
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Man oh man, if it wasn't for bad you wouldn't have any luck at
> all
> > > > would
> > > > > > > you?
> > > > > > > ;-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I for one most certainly would not accept a rebuilt engine
with
> an
> > > > > > > already 'blown' head gasket.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Head gaskets only compress once.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Just had my engine rebuilt. New cam, new crank 10/10, new
> > bearings,
> > > > new
> > > > > > > > pistons and rings, flywheel balanced and all married up to
my
> > 4.0L
> > > > head
> > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > the door.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Now the R&R guy has noticed one of the head bolts is out of
> > position
> > > > for
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > power steering bracket so he needs to switch them.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Is there any problem switching two head bolts which reside
> side
> > by
> > > > side
> > > > > > > > without going through the entire torquing sequence again?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That is, can these two bolts be taking out, switched, put
back
> > in
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > torqued down without any problems?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > R&R guy says no problem.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bill
> >
> >
>
>

Re: Switching Head bolts
 

Thanks Chris,
I'll question the rebuilder when I go in for a visual to extend the
warranty.

Thanks again,

Bill

"c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
news:w%Rnc.51052$u_4.16148@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> I just have to add my 2 cents here Bill. I hope to heck that whatever they
> do to fix the bolt problem works out for you. Things like this make me
glad
> that I rebuild my own stuff. Anyway, for what you paid for the rebuild, I
> would insist that they change the head gasket. I don't know what type of
> gasket they used, but some of them form quite a bond to the head and block
> surfaces, so relaxing the bolt torque could cause the gasket layers to
> separate slightly. Then it becomes leak time. Like Mike said, since there
> were different types of bolts for the heads, the guy should have at least
> asked you where the special bracket bolt belonged, unless he knew for sure
> (which he didn't). The second thing here that would raise a red flag is
the
> fact that the rebuilder didn't insist on changing the gasket after his
oops.
> I rebuild engines in my own shop and would never risk that. Is he going to
> do all the labor and reimburse you for your car rental, towing, etc. if
the
> gasket fails? If not, I would insist he change the gasket. The gasket is
> probably about $40 at most, and and hour or two of his time to do it
right.
> IMHO, this sounds like poor quality work.
>
> Chris
>
>
> "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> news:2ga6scFhuirU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > Ha ha.... I'm getting to know you well Mike. After the last post that
I
> > knew you'd have that reply as I was thinking I'd have the same reply.
:-)
> >
> > Thanks for the Devil's Advocate. I certainly hope my 'luck' doesn't
fall
> > into the 'bad' category from here out. I'm already shot to my bones
with
> > nerves on this one.
> >
> > Come on housing crash so I can afford my own garage :-)
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:409FE117.73D0C0AD@sympatico.ca...
> > > I just like to play the devil's advocate some days Bill, I hope it
works
> > > out great for you.
> > >
> > > Still, not knowing where the freaking bolts go sure doesn't instill
> > > confidence in the statement 'I choose him because he has done this mod
> > > before and is fully familiar with it.'
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Mike, the mechanic didn't put the thing together. The
> rebuilder/machine
> > > > shop did. They did the rebuild on the short block and put my
> previously
> > > > machined 4.0L head on it.
> > > >
> > > > There are two entities in this process. 1. the R&R guy, you can
call
> > him a
> > > > mechanic. 2. The Machine Shop/Rebuilder.
> > > >
> > > > #2 is the one who bolted the thing together and I choose him because
> he
> > has
> > > > done this mod before and is fully familiar with it. This guy has a
> > history
> > > > of jeeps including racing sand jeeps. He's the best I could find in
> > this
> > > > area for this application.
> > > >
> > > > And
> > > >
> > > > He warranties the work for a year.
> > > >
> > > > He confirmed that it would be no problem for #1 (mechanic) to change
> the
> > > > bolts so if he's wrong he'll have to fix it if it comes down to it.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Bill
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:409FD597.39970CF5@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > He already has a mis match on the head gasket Steve.
> > > > >
> > > > > He is putting a 4.0 head onto a 4.2 block. That makes it a
> 'twitchy'
> > > > > installation to start.
> > > > >
> > > > > 'I' would not take a chance on blowing a new engine for something
> that
> > > > > dumb.
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe that is just me, but.... If I forked out in the order of
$2K
> > plus
> > > > > I most certainly would not take a chance on a head gasket that
> 'might
> > or
> > > > > might not' be compromised.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have assembled and have seen assembled a whole pile of engines
> over
> > > > > the years and most people, let alone 'mechanics' stop and think
when
> > > > > they find 2 head bolts that are nutted studs instead of bolts.
> > > > >
> > > > > It seem 'logical' that these 'strange' bolt like things should go
> > > > > somewhere special eh?
> > > > >
> > > > > One is for the bracket, the other goes on the back drivers side
> corner
> > > > > for the ground strap to bolt onto.
> > > > >
> > > > > In all due fairness poor Bill's 'mechanic' is kinda on the brain
> dead
> > > > > side to just put it together wrong without checking wouldn't you
> say?
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > > Steve G wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've done it hundreds of times and there won't be a problem
> > switching
> > > > the
> > > > > > bolts and just re-torquing those two. In all probability it's
one
> of
> > the
> > > > > > outside bolts which are the last to be torqued in the sequence
> > anyways.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In all fairness to the mechanic Mike, these guys have no way of
> > knowing
> > > > > > which bolt is supposed to have the stud on it and different
> > > > installations
> > > > > > sometimes have different positions for that bolt. May not be
the
> > case
> > > > with
> > > > > > all 4.0, although I doubt that they all come the same way in
all
> > > > > > applications. I know for a fact lots of Pontiac, Buick and Olds
> > v-8's
> > > > would
> > > > > > have the head bolts with the stud on it in different locations
> > depending
> > > > on
> > > > > > what model vehicle it was going in and the assembler would have
no
> > way
> > > > of
> > > > > > knowing.
> > > > > > Steve G.
> > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:409FC445.928E9186@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > I don't know where some of these 'mechanics' come from....
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > He put the 'wrong' bolt in the hole.....
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Man oh man, if it wasn't for bad you wouldn't have any luck at
> all
> > > > would
> > > > > > > you?
> > > > > > > ;-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I for one most certainly would not accept a rebuilt engine
with
> an
> > > > > > > already 'blown' head gasket.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Head gaskets only compress once.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Just had my engine rebuilt. New cam, new crank 10/10, new
> > bearings,
> > > > new
> > > > > > > > pistons and rings, flywheel balanced and all married up to
my
> > 4.0L
> > > > head
> > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > the door.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Now the R&R guy has noticed one of the head bolts is out of
> > position
> > > > for
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > power steering bracket so he needs to switch them.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Is there any problem switching two head bolts which reside
> side
> > by
> > > > side
> > > > > > > > without going through the entire torquing sequence again?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That is, can these two bolts be taking out, switched, put
back
> > in
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > torqued down without any problems?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > R&R guy says no problem.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bill
> >
> >
>
>

Re: Switching Head bolts
 

Thanks Chris,
I'll question the rebuilder when I go in for a visual to extend the
warranty.

Thanks again,

Bill

"c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
news:w%Rnc.51052$u_4.16148@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> I just have to add my 2 cents here Bill. I hope to heck that whatever they
> do to fix the bolt problem works out for you. Things like this make me
glad
> that I rebuild my own stuff. Anyway, for what you paid for the rebuild, I
> would insist that they change the head gasket. I don't know what type of
> gasket they used, but some of them form quite a bond to the head and block
> surfaces, so relaxing the bolt torque could cause the gasket layers to
> separate slightly. Then it becomes leak time. Like Mike said, since there
> were different types of bolts for the heads, the guy should have at least
> asked you where the special bracket bolt belonged, unless he knew for sure
> (which he didn't). The second thing here that would raise a red flag is
the
> fact that the rebuilder didn't insist on changing the gasket after his
oops.
> I rebuild engines in my own shop and would never risk that. Is he going to
> do all the labor and reimburse you for your car rental, towing, etc. if
the
> gasket fails? If not, I would insist he change the gasket. The gasket is
> probably about $40 at most, and and hour or two of his time to do it
right.
> IMHO, this sounds like poor quality work.
>
> Chris
>
>
> "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> news:2ga6scFhuirU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > Ha ha.... I'm getting to know you well Mike. After the last post that
I
> > knew you'd have that reply as I was thinking I'd have the same reply.
:-)
> >
> > Thanks for the Devil's Advocate. I certainly hope my 'luck' doesn't
fall
> > into the 'bad' category from here out. I'm already shot to my bones
with
> > nerves on this one.
> >
> > Come on housing crash so I can afford my own garage :-)
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:409FE117.73D0C0AD@sympatico.ca...
> > > I just like to play the devil's advocate some days Bill, I hope it
works
> > > out great for you.
> > >
> > > Still, not knowing where the freaking bolts go sure doesn't instill
> > > confidence in the statement 'I choose him because he has done this mod
> > > before and is fully familiar with it.'
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Mike, the mechanic didn't put the thing together. The
> rebuilder/machine
> > > > shop did. They did the rebuild on the short block and put my
> previously
> > > > machined 4.0L head on it.
> > > >
> > > > There are two entities in this process. 1. the R&R guy, you can
call
> > him a
> > > > mechanic. 2. The Machine Shop/Rebuilder.
> > > >
> > > > #2 is the one who bolted the thing together and I choose him because
> he
> > has
> > > > done this mod before and is fully familiar with it. This guy has a
> > history
> > > > of jeeps including racing sand jeeps. He's the best I could find in
> > this
> > > > area for this application.
> > > >
> > > > And
> > > >
> > > > He warranties the work for a year.
> > > >
> > > > He confirmed that it would be no problem for #1 (mechanic) to change
> the
> > > > bolts so if he's wrong he'll have to fix it if it comes down to it.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Bill
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:409FD597.39970CF5@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > He already has a mis match on the head gasket Steve.
> > > > >
> > > > > He is putting a 4.0 head onto a 4.2 block. That makes it a
> 'twitchy'
> > > > > installation to start.
> > > > >
> > > > > 'I' would not take a chance on blowing a new engine for something
> that
> > > > > dumb.
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe that is just me, but.... If I forked out in the order of
$2K
> > plus
> > > > > I most certainly would not take a chance on a head gasket that
> 'might
> > or
> > > > > might not' be compromised.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have assembled and have seen assembled a whole pile of engines
> over
> > > > > the years and most people, let alone 'mechanics' stop and think
when
> > > > > they find 2 head bolts that are nutted studs instead of bolts.
> > > > >
> > > > > It seem 'logical' that these 'strange' bolt like things should go
> > > > > somewhere special eh?
> > > > >
> > > > > One is for the bracket, the other goes on the back drivers side
> corner
> > > > > for the ground strap to bolt onto.
> > > > >
> > > > > In all due fairness poor Bill's 'mechanic' is kinda on the brain
> dead
> > > > > side to just put it together wrong without checking wouldn't you
> say?
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > > Steve G wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've done it hundreds of times and there won't be a problem
> > switching
> > > > the
> > > > > > bolts and just re-torquing those two. In all probability it's
one
> of
> > the
> > > > > > outside bolts which are the last to be torqued in the sequence
> > anyways.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In all fairness to the mechanic Mike, these guys have no way of
> > knowing
> > > > > > which bolt is supposed to have the stud on it and different
> > > > installations
> > > > > > sometimes have different positions for that bolt. May not be
the
> > case
> > > > with
> > > > > > all 4.0, although I doubt that they all come the same way in
all
> > > > > > applications. I know for a fact lots of Pontiac, Buick and Olds
> > v-8's
> > > > would
> > > > > > have the head bolts with the stud on it in different locations
> > depending
> > > > on
> > > > > > what model vehicle it was going in and the assembler would have
no
> > way
> > > > of
> > > > > > knowing.
> > > > > > Steve G.
> > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:409FC445.928E9186@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > I don't know where some of these 'mechanics' come from....
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > He put the 'wrong' bolt in the hole.....
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Man oh man, if it wasn't for bad you wouldn't have any luck at
> all
> > > > would
> > > > > > > you?
> > > > > > > ;-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I for one most certainly would not accept a rebuilt engine
with
> an
> > > > > > > already 'blown' head gasket.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Head gaskets only compress once.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Just had my engine rebuilt. New cam, new crank 10/10, new
> > bearings,
> > > > new
> > > > > > > > pistons and rings, flywheel balanced and all married up to
my
> > 4.0L
> > > > head
> > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > the door.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Now the R&R guy has noticed one of the head bolts is out of
> > position
> > > > for
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > power steering bracket so he needs to switch them.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Is there any problem switching two head bolts which reside
> side
> > by
> > > > side
> > > > > > > > without going through the entire torquing sequence again?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That is, can these two bolts be taking out, switched, put
back
> > in
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > torqued down without any problems?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > R&R guy says no problem.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bill
> >
> >
>
>

Re: Switching Head bolts
 

I have seen that head gasket separation too many times....

I used to run a 1275 CC block with an 1100 cc head on it for the
compression boost from the smaller dome with the same sized valves in an
old Mini and that had a mis matched gasket like Bill's does.

I ran it fast sometimes, LOL, radar clocked at 132.4 mph and it was a
'real' bugger to keep a head gasket in it. (loved to top out the 'hot
rod' 1/4 mile Camaros and Vettes as I hit 4th at 104 mph @ 5000 rpm or
so and waved as I went by)

My buddy and I had a head gasket swap down to 30 minutes....

The British Leyland dealer thought they had a bad batch of gaskets until
they called me in for a 'free' check of my 'built' engine that a Mini
guru they know well made... It broke the first compression gauge,
popped the pin off.

The starter would barely turn it over and it was a 'thumper' for idle
with a 2 1/2" straight pipe and glass pack.

I don't think Bill wants to get that good at swapping head gaskets
unless he had the benefits I had....

Mike

c wrote:
>
> I just have to add my 2 cents here Bill. I hope to heck that whatever they
> do to fix the bolt problem works out for you. Things like this make me glad
> that I rebuild my own stuff. Anyway, for what you paid for the rebuild, I
> would insist that they change the head gasket. I don't know what type of
> gasket they used, but some of them form quite a bond to the head and block
> surfaces, so relaxing the bolt torque could cause the gasket layers to
> separate slightly. Then it becomes leak time. Like Mike said, since there
> were different types of bolts for the heads, the guy should have at least
> asked you where the special bracket bolt belonged, unless he knew for sure
> (which he didn't). The second thing here that would raise a red flag is the
> fact that the rebuilder didn't insist on changing the gasket after his oops.
> I rebuild engines in my own shop and would never risk that. Is he going to
> do all the labor and reimburse you for your car rental, towing, etc. if the
> gasket fails? If not, I would insist he change the gasket. The gasket is
> probably about $40 at most, and and hour or two of his time to do it right.
> IMHO, this sounds like poor quality work.
>
> Chris
>
> "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> news:2ga6scFhuirU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > Ha ha.... I'm getting to know you well Mike. After the last post that I
> > knew you'd have that reply as I was thinking I'd have the same reply. :-)
> >
> > Thanks for the Devil's Advocate. I certainly hope my 'luck' doesn't fall
> > into the 'bad' category from here out. I'm already shot to my bones with
> > nerves on this one.
> >
> > Come on housing crash so I can afford my own garage :-)
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:409FE117.73D0C0AD@sympatico.ca...
> > > I just like to play the devil's advocate some days Bill, I hope it works
> > > out great for you.
> > >
> > > Still, not knowing where the freaking bolts go sure doesn't instill
> > > confidence in the statement 'I choose him because he has done this mod
> > > before and is fully familiar with it.'
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Mike, the mechanic didn't put the thing together. The
> rebuilder/machine
> > > > shop did. They did the rebuild on the short block and put my
> previously
> > > > machined 4.0L head on it.
> > > >
> > > > There are two entities in this process. 1. the R&R guy, you can call
> > him a
> > > > mechanic. 2. The Machine Shop/Rebuilder.
> > > >
> > > > #2 is the one who bolted the thing together and I choose him because
> he
> > has
> > > > done this mod before and is fully familiar with it. This guy has a
> > history
> > > > of jeeps including racing sand jeeps. He's the best I could find in
> > this
> > > > area for this application.
> > > >
> > > > And
> > > >
> > > > He warranties the work for a year.
> > > >
> > > > He confirmed that it would be no problem for #1 (mechanic) to change
> the
> > > > bolts so if he's wrong he'll have to fix it if it comes down to it.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Bill
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:409FD597.39970CF5@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > He already has a mis match on the head gasket Steve.
> > > > >
> > > > > He is putting a 4.0 head onto a 4.2 block. That makes it a
> 'twitchy'
> > > > > installation to start.
> > > > >
> > > > > 'I' would not take a chance on blowing a new engine for something
> that
> > > > > dumb.
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe that is just me, but.... If I forked out in the order of $2K
> > plus
> > > > > I most certainly would not take a chance on a head gasket that
> 'might
> > or
> > > > > might not' be compromised.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have assembled and have seen assembled a whole pile of engines
> over
> > > > > the years and most people, let alone 'mechanics' stop and think when
> > > > > they find 2 head bolts that are nutted studs instead of bolts.
> > > > >
> > > > > It seem 'logical' that these 'strange' bolt like things should go
> > > > > somewhere special eh?
> > > > >
> > > > > One is for the bracket, the other goes on the back drivers side
> corner
> > > > > for the ground strap to bolt onto.
> > > > >
> > > > > In all due fairness poor Bill's 'mechanic' is kinda on the brain
> dead
> > > > > side to just put it together wrong without checking wouldn't you
> say?
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > > Steve G wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've done it hundreds of times and there won't be a problem
> > switching
> > > > the
> > > > > > bolts and just re-torquing those two. In all probability it's one
> of
> > the
> > > > > > outside bolts which are the last to be torqued in the sequence
> > anyways.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In all fairness to the mechanic Mike, these guys have no way of
> > knowing
> > > > > > which bolt is supposed to have the stud on it and different
> > > > installations
> > > > > > sometimes have different positions for that bolt. May not be the
> > case
> > > > with
> > > > > > all 4.0, although I doubt that they all come the same way in all
> > > > > > applications. I know for a fact lots of Pontiac, Buick and Olds
> > v-8's
> > > > would
> > > > > > have the head bolts with the stud on it in different locations
> > depending
> > > > on
> > > > > > what model vehicle it was going in and the assembler would have no
> > way
> > > > of
> > > > > > knowing.
> > > > > > Steve G.
> > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:409FC445.928E9186@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > I don't know where some of these 'mechanics' come from....
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > He put the 'wrong' bolt in the hole.....
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Man oh man, if it wasn't for bad you wouldn't have any luck at
> all
> > > > would
> > > > > > > you?
> > > > > > > ;-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I for one most certainly would not accept a rebuilt engine with
> an
> > > > > > > already 'blown' head gasket.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Head gaskets only compress once.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Just had my engine rebuilt. New cam, new crank 10/10, new
> > bearings,
> > > > new
> > > > > > > > pistons and rings, flywheel balanced and all married up to my
> > 4.0L
> > > > head
> > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > the door.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Now the R&R guy has noticed one of the head bolts is out of
> > position
> > > > for
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > power steering bracket so he needs to switch them.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Is there any problem switching two head bolts which reside
> side
> > by
> > > > side
> > > > > > > > without going through the entire torquing sequence again?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That is, can these two bolts be taking out, switched, put back
> > in
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > torqued down without any problems?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > R&R guy says no problem.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bill
> >
> >

Re: Switching Head bolts
 

I have seen that head gasket separation too many times....

I used to run a 1275 CC block with an 1100 cc head on it for the
compression boost from the smaller dome with the same sized valves in an
old Mini and that had a mis matched gasket like Bill's does.

I ran it fast sometimes, LOL, radar clocked at 132.4 mph and it was a
'real' bugger to keep a head gasket in it. (loved to top out the 'hot
rod' 1/4 mile Camaros and Vettes as I hit 4th at 104 mph @ 5000 rpm or
so and waved as I went by)

My buddy and I had a head gasket swap down to 30 minutes....

The British Leyland dealer thought they had a bad batch of gaskets until
they called me in for a 'free' check of my 'built' engine that a Mini
guru they know well made... It broke the first compression gauge,
popped the pin off.

The starter would barely turn it over and it was a 'thumper' for idle
with a 2 1/2" straight pipe and glass pack.

I don't think Bill wants to get that good at swapping head gaskets
unless he had the benefits I had....

Mike

c wrote:
>
> I just have to add my 2 cents here Bill. I hope to heck that whatever they
> do to fix the bolt problem works out for you. Things like this make me glad
> that I rebuild my own stuff. Anyway, for what you paid for the rebuild, I
> would insist that they change the head gasket. I don't know what type of
> gasket they used, but some of them form quite a bond to the head and block
> surfaces, so relaxing the bolt torque could cause the gasket layers to
> separate slightly. Then it becomes leak time. Like Mike said, since there
> were different types of bolts for the heads, the guy should have at least
> asked you where the special bracket bolt belonged, unless he knew for sure
> (which he didn't). The second thing here that would raise a red flag is the
> fact that the rebuilder didn't insist on changing the gasket after his oops.
> I rebuild engines in my own shop and would never risk that. Is he going to
> do all the labor and reimburse you for your car rental, towing, etc. if the
> gasket fails? If not, I would insist he change the gasket. The gasket is
> probably about $40 at most, and and hour or two of his time to do it right.
> IMHO, this sounds like poor quality work.
>
> Chris
>
> "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> news:2ga6scFhuirU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > Ha ha.... I'm getting to know you well Mike. After the last post that I
> > knew you'd have that reply as I was thinking I'd have the same reply. :-)
> >
> > Thanks for the Devil's Advocate. I certainly hope my 'luck' doesn't fall
> > into the 'bad' category from here out. I'm already shot to my bones with
> > nerves on this one.
> >
> > Come on housing crash so I can afford my own garage :-)
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:409FE117.73D0C0AD@sympatico.ca...
> > > I just like to play the devil's advocate some days Bill, I hope it works
> > > out great for you.
> > >
> > > Still, not knowing where the freaking bolts go sure doesn't instill
> > > confidence in the statement 'I choose him because he has done this mod
> > > before and is fully familiar with it.'
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Mike, the mechanic didn't put the thing together. The
> rebuilder/machine
> > > > shop did. They did the rebuild on the short block and put my
> previously
> > > > machined 4.0L head on it.
> > > >
> > > > There are two entities in this process. 1. the R&R guy, you can call
> > him a
> > > > mechanic. 2. The Machine Shop/Rebuilder.
> > > >
> > > > #2 is the one who bolted the thing together and I choose him because
> he
> > has
> > > > done this mod before and is fully familiar with it. This guy has a
> > history
> > > > of jeeps including racing sand jeeps. He's the best I could find in
> > this
> > > > area for this application.
> > > >
> > > > And
> > > >
> > > > He warranties the work for a year.
> > > >
> > > > He confirmed that it would be no problem for #1 (mechanic) to change
> the
> > > > bolts so if he's wrong he'll have to fix it if it comes down to it.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Bill
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:409FD597.39970CF5@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > He already has a mis match on the head gasket Steve.
> > > > >
> > > > > He is putting a 4.0 head onto a 4.2 block. That makes it a
> 'twitchy'
> > > > > installation to start.
> > > > >
> > > > > 'I' would not take a chance on blowing a new engine for something
> that
> > > > > dumb.
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe that is just me, but.... If I forked out in the order of $2K
> > plus
> > > > > I most certainly would not take a chance on a head gasket that
> 'might
> > or
> > > > > might not' be compromised.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have assembled and have seen assembled a whole pile of engines
> over
> > > > > the years and most people, let alone 'mechanics' stop and think when
> > > > > they find 2 head bolts that are nutted studs instead of bolts.
> > > > >
> > > > > It seem 'logical' that these 'strange' bolt like things should go
> > > > > somewhere special eh?
> > > > >
> > > > > One is for the bracket, the other goes on the back drivers side
> corner
> > > > > for the ground strap to bolt onto.
> > > > >
> > > > > In all due fairness poor Bill's 'mechanic' is kinda on the brain
> dead
> > > > > side to just put it together wrong without checking wouldn't you
> say?
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > > Steve G wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've done it hundreds of times and there won't be a problem
> > switching
> > > > the
> > > > > > bolts and just re-torquing those two. In all probability it's one
> of
> > the
> > > > > > outside bolts which are the last to be torqued in the sequence
> > anyways.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In all fairness to the mechanic Mike, these guys have no way of
> > knowing
> > > > > > which bolt is supposed to have the stud on it and different
> > > > installations
> > > > > > sometimes have different positions for that bolt. May not be the
> > case
> > > > with
> > > > > > all 4.0, although I doubt that they all come the same way in all
> > > > > > applications. I know for a fact lots of Pontiac, Buick and Olds
> > v-8's
> > > > would
> > > > > > have the head bolts with the stud on it in different locations
> > depending
> > > > on
> > > > > > what model vehicle it was going in and the assembler would have no
> > way
> > > > of
> > > > > > knowing.
> > > > > > Steve G.
> > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:409FC445.928E9186@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > I don't know where some of these 'mechanics' come from....
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > He put the 'wrong' bolt in the hole.....
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Man oh man, if it wasn't for bad you wouldn't have any luck at
> all
> > > > would
> > > > > > > you?
> > > > > > > ;-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I for one most certainly would not accept a rebuilt engine with
> an
> > > > > > > already 'blown' head gasket.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Head gaskets only compress once.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Just had my engine rebuilt. New cam, new crank 10/10, new
> > bearings,
> > > > new
> > > > > > > > pistons and rings, flywheel balanced and all married up to my
> > 4.0L
> > > > head
> > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > the door.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Now the R&R guy has noticed one of the head bolts is out of
> > position
> > > > for
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > power steering bracket so he needs to switch them.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Is there any problem switching two head bolts which reside
> side
> > by
> > > > side
> > > > > > > > without going through the entire torquing sequence again?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That is, can these two bolts be taking out, switched, put back
> > in
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > torqued down without any problems?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > R&R guy says no problem.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bill
> >
> >

Re: Switching Head bolts
 

I have seen that head gasket separation too many times....

I used to run a 1275 CC block with an 1100 cc head on it for the
compression boost from the smaller dome with the same sized valves in an
old Mini and that had a mis matched gasket like Bill's does.

I ran it fast sometimes, LOL, radar clocked at 132.4 mph and it was a
'real' bugger to keep a head gasket in it. (loved to top out the 'hot
rod' 1/4 mile Camaros and Vettes as I hit 4th at 104 mph @ 5000 rpm or
so and waved as I went by)

My buddy and I had a head gasket swap down to 30 minutes....

The British Leyland dealer thought they had a bad batch of gaskets until
they called me in for a 'free' check of my 'built' engine that a Mini
guru they know well made... It broke the first compression gauge,
popped the pin off.

The starter would barely turn it over and it was a 'thumper' for idle
with a 2 1/2" straight pipe and glass pack.

I don't think Bill wants to get that good at swapping head gaskets
unless he had the benefits I had....

Mike

c wrote:
>
> I just have to add my 2 cents here Bill. I hope to heck that whatever they
> do to fix the bolt problem works out for you. Things like this make me glad
> that I rebuild my own stuff. Anyway, for what you paid for the rebuild, I
> would insist that they change the head gasket. I don't know what type of
> gasket they used, but some of them form quite a bond to the head and block
> surfaces, so relaxing the bolt torque could cause the gasket layers to
> separate slightly. Then it becomes leak time. Like Mike said, since there
> were different types of bolts for the heads, the guy should have at least
> asked you where the special bracket bolt belonged, unless he knew for sure
> (which he didn't). The second thing here that would raise a red flag is the
> fact that the rebuilder didn't insist on changing the gasket after his oops.
> I rebuild engines in my own shop and would never risk that. Is he going to
> do all the labor and reimburse you for your car rental, towing, etc. if the
> gasket fails? If not, I would insist he change the gasket. The gasket is
> probably about $40 at most, and and hour or two of his time to do it right.
> IMHO, this sounds like poor quality work.
>
> Chris
>
> "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> news:2ga6scFhuirU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > Ha ha.... I'm getting to know you well Mike. After the last post that I
> > knew you'd have that reply as I was thinking I'd have the same reply. :-)
> >
> > Thanks for the Devil's Advocate. I certainly hope my 'luck' doesn't fall
> > into the 'bad' category from here out. I'm already shot to my bones with
> > nerves on this one.
> >
> > Come on housing crash so I can afford my own garage :-)
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:409FE117.73D0C0AD@sympatico.ca...
> > > I just like to play the devil's advocate some days Bill, I hope it works
> > > out great for you.
> > >
> > > Still, not knowing where the freaking bolts go sure doesn't instill
> > > confidence in the statement 'I choose him because he has done this mod
> > > before and is fully familiar with it.'
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Mike, the mechanic didn't put the thing together. The
> rebuilder/machine
> > > > shop did. They did the rebuild on the short block and put my
> previously
> > > > machined 4.0L head on it.
> > > >
> > > > There are two entities in this process. 1. the R&R guy, you can call
> > him a
> > > > mechanic. 2. The Machine Shop/Rebuilder.
> > > >
> > > > #2 is the one who bolted the thing together and I choose him because
> he
> > has
> > > > done this mod before and is fully familiar with it. This guy has a
> > history
> > > > of jeeps including racing sand jeeps. He's the best I could find in
> > this
> > > > area for this application.
> > > >
> > > > And
> > > >
> > > > He warranties the work for a year.
> > > >
> > > > He confirmed that it would be no problem for #1 (mechanic) to change
> the
> > > > bolts so if he's wrong he'll have to fix it if it comes down to it.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Bill
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:409FD597.39970CF5@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > He already has a mis match on the head gasket Steve.
> > > > >
> > > > > He is putting a 4.0 head onto a 4.2 block. That makes it a
> 'twitchy'
> > > > > installation to start.
> > > > >
> > > > > 'I' would not take a chance on blowing a new engine for something
> that
> > > > > dumb.
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe that is just me, but.... If I forked out in the order of $2K
> > plus
> > > > > I most certainly would not take a chance on a head gasket that
> 'might
> > or
> > > > > might not' be compromised.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have assembled and have seen assembled a whole pile of engines
> over
> > > > > the years and most people, let alone 'mechanics' stop and think when
> > > > > they find 2 head bolts that are nutted studs instead of bolts.
> > > > >
> > > > > It seem 'logical' that these 'strange' bolt like things should go
> > > > > somewhere special eh?
> > > > >
> > > > > One is for the bracket, the other goes on the back drivers side
> corner
> > > > > for the ground strap to bolt onto.
> > > > >
> > > > > In all due fairness poor Bill's 'mechanic' is kinda on the brain
> dead
> > > > > side to just put it together wrong without checking wouldn't you
> say?
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > > Steve G wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've done it hundreds of times and there won't be a problem
> > switching
> > > > the
> > > > > > bolts and just re-torquing those two. In all probability it's one
> of
> > the
> > > > > > outside bolts which are the last to be torqued in the sequence
> > anyways.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In all fairness to the mechanic Mike, these guys have no way of
> > knowing
> > > > > > which bolt is supposed to have the stud on it and different
> > > > installations
> > > > > > sometimes have different positions for that bolt. May not be the
> > case
> > > > with
> > > > > > all 4.0, although I doubt that they all come the same way in all
> > > > > > applications. I know for a fact lots of Pontiac, Buick and Olds
> > v-8's
> > > > would
> > > > > > have the head bolts with the stud on it in different locations
> > depending
> > > > on
> > > > > > what model vehicle it was going in and the assembler would have no
> > way
> > > > of
> > > > > > knowing.
> > > > > > Steve G.
> > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:409FC445.928E9186@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > I don't know where some of these 'mechanics' come from....
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > He put the 'wrong' bolt in the hole.....
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Man oh man, if it wasn't for bad you wouldn't have any luck at
> all
> > > > would
> > > > > > > you?
> > > > > > > ;-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I for one most certainly would not accept a rebuilt engine with
> an
> > > > > > > already 'blown' head gasket.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Head gaskets only compress once.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Just had my engine rebuilt. New cam, new crank 10/10, new
> > bearings,
> > > > new
> > > > > > > > pistons and rings, flywheel balanced and all married up to my
> > 4.0L
> > > > head
> > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > the door.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Now the R&R guy has noticed one of the head bolts is out of
> > position
> > > > for
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > power steering bracket so he needs to switch them.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Is there any problem switching two head bolts which reside
> side
> > by
> > > > side
> > > > > > > > without going through the entire torquing sequence again?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That is, can these two bolts be taking out, switched, put back
> > in
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > torqued down without any problems?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > R&R guy says no problem.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bill
> >
> >

Re: Switching Head bolts
 

I have seen that head gasket separation too many times....

I used to run a 1275 CC block with an 1100 cc head on it for the
compression boost from the smaller dome with the same sized valves in an
old Mini and that had a mis matched gasket like Bill's does.

I ran it fast sometimes, LOL, radar clocked at 132.4 mph and it was a
'real' bugger to keep a head gasket in it. (loved to top out the 'hot
rod' 1/4 mile Camaros and Vettes as I hit 4th at 104 mph @ 5000 rpm or
so and waved as I went by)

My buddy and I had a head gasket swap down to 30 minutes....

The British Leyland dealer thought they had a bad batch of gaskets until
they called me in for a 'free' check of my 'built' engine that a Mini
guru they know well made... It broke the first compression gauge,
popped the pin off.

The starter would barely turn it over and it was a 'thumper' for idle
with a 2 1/2" straight pipe and glass pack.

I don't think Bill wants to get that good at swapping head gaskets
unless he had the benefits I had....

Mike

c wrote:
>
> I just have to add my 2 cents here Bill. I hope to heck that whatever they
> do to fix the bolt problem works out for you. Things like this make me glad
> that I rebuild my own stuff. Anyway, for what you paid for the rebuild, I
> would insist that they change the head gasket. I don't know what type of
> gasket they used, but some of them form quite a bond to the head and block
> surfaces, so relaxing the bolt torque could cause the gasket layers to
> separate slightly. Then it becomes leak time. Like Mike said, since there
> were different types of bolts for the heads, the guy should have at least
> asked you where the special bracket bolt belonged, unless he knew for sure
> (which he didn't). The second thing here that would raise a red flag is the
> fact that the rebuilder didn't insist on changing the gasket after his oops.
> I rebuild engines in my own shop and would never risk that. Is he going to
> do all the labor and reimburse you for your car rental, towing, etc. if the
> gasket fails? If not, I would insist he change the gasket. The gasket is
> probably about $40 at most, and and hour or two of his time to do it right.
> IMHO, this sounds like poor quality work.
>
> Chris
>
> "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> news:2ga6scFhuirU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > Ha ha.... I'm getting to know you well Mike. After the last post that I
> > knew you'd have that reply as I was thinking I'd have the same reply. :-)
> >
> > Thanks for the Devil's Advocate. I certainly hope my 'luck' doesn't fall
> > into the 'bad' category from here out. I'm already shot to my bones with
> > nerves on this one.
> >
> > Come on housing crash so I can afford my own garage :-)
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:409FE117.73D0C0AD@sympatico.ca...
> > > I just like to play the devil's advocate some days Bill, I hope it works
> > > out great for you.
> > >
> > > Still, not knowing where the freaking bolts go sure doesn't instill
> > > confidence in the statement 'I choose him because he has done this mod
> > > before and is fully familiar with it.'
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Mike, the mechanic didn't put the thing together. The
> rebuilder/machine
> > > > shop did. They did the rebuild on the short block and put my
> previously
> > > > machined 4.0L head on it.
> > > >
> > > > There are two entities in this process. 1. the R&R guy, you can call
> > him a
> > > > mechanic. 2. The Machine Shop/Rebuilder.
> > > >
> > > > #2 is the one who bolted the thing together and I choose him because
> he
> > has
> > > > done this mod before and is fully familiar with it. This guy has a
> > history
> > > > of jeeps including racing sand jeeps. He's the best I could find in
> > this
> > > > area for this application.
> > > >
> > > > And
> > > >
> > > > He warranties the work for a year.
> > > >
> > > > He confirmed that it would be no problem for #1 (mechanic) to change
> the
> > > > bolts so if he's wrong he'll have to fix it if it comes down to it.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Bill
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:409FD597.39970CF5@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > He already has a mis match on the head gasket Steve.
> > > > >
> > > > > He is putting a 4.0 head onto a 4.2 block. That makes it a
> 'twitchy'
> > > > > installation to start.
> > > > >
> > > > > 'I' would not take a chance on blowing a new engine for something
> that
> > > > > dumb.
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe that is just me, but.... If I forked out in the order of $2K
> > plus
> > > > > I most certainly would not take a chance on a head gasket that
> 'might
> > or
> > > > > might not' be compromised.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have assembled and have seen assembled a whole pile of engines
> over
> > > > > the years and most people, let alone 'mechanics' stop and think when
> > > > > they find 2 head bolts that are nutted studs instead of bolts.
> > > > >
> > > > > It seem 'logical' that these 'strange' bolt like things should go
> > > > > somewhere special eh?
> > > > >
> > > > > One is for the bracket, the other goes on the back drivers side
> corner
> > > > > for the ground strap to bolt onto.
> > > > >
> > > > > In all due fairness poor Bill's 'mechanic' is kinda on the brain
> dead
> > > > > side to just put it together wrong without checking wouldn't you
> say?
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > > Steve G wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've done it hundreds of times and there won't be a problem
> > switching
> > > > the
> > > > > > bolts and just re-torquing those two. In all probability it's one
> of
> > the
> > > > > > outside bolts which are the last to be torqued in the sequence
> > anyways.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In all fairness to the mechanic Mike, these guys have no way of
> > knowing
> > > > > > which bolt is supposed to have the stud on it and different
> > > > installations
> > > > > > sometimes have different positions for that bolt. May not be the
> > case
> > > > with
> > > > > > all 4.0, although I doubt that they all come the same way in all
> > > > > > applications. I know for a fact lots of Pontiac, Buick and Olds
> > v-8's
> > > > would
> > > > > > have the head bolts with the stud on it in different locations
> > depending
> > > > on
> > > > > > what model vehicle it was going in and the assembler would have no
> > way
> > > > of
> > > > > > knowing.
> > > > > > Steve G.
> > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:409FC445.928E9186@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > I don't know where some of these 'mechanics' come from....
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > He put the 'wrong' bolt in the hole.....
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Man oh man, if it wasn't for bad you wouldn't have any luck at
> all
> > > > would
> > > > > > > you?
> > > > > > > ;-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I for one most certainly would not accept a rebuilt engine with
> an
> > > > > > > already 'blown' head gasket.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Head gaskets only compress once.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Just had my engine rebuilt. New cam, new crank 10/10, new
> > bearings,
> > > > new
> > > > > > > > pistons and rings, flywheel balanced and all married up to my
> > 4.0L
> > > > head
> > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > the door.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Now the R&R guy has noticed one of the head bolts is out of
> > position
> > > > for
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > power steering bracket so he needs to switch them.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Is there any problem switching two head bolts which reside
> side
> > by
> > > > side
> > > > > > > > without going through the entire torquing sequence again?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That is, can these two bolts be taking out, switched, put back
> > in
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > torqued down without any problems?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > R&R guy says no problem.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bill
> >
> >

Re: Switching Head bolts
 

Well let me just say that you guys are giving me a big fat knot in my
stomach. :-).

As I mentioned before, I did a lot of leg work in this area to find a good
shop for R&R and machine and Chris thinks I paid way too much for the
rebuild.

Sounds like I just need to move the heck out of this state.

Hopefully I have a jeep at the end of all this otherwise I'll push it into a
crater somewhere or blow the thing up.

Bill





"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:40A00749.413F24BB@sympatico.ca...
> I have seen that head gasket separation too many times....
>
> I used to run a 1275 CC block with an 1100 cc head on it for the
> compression boost from the smaller dome with the same sized valves in an
> old Mini and that had a mis matched gasket like Bill's does.
>
> I ran it fast sometimes, LOL, radar clocked at 132.4 mph and it was a
> 'real' bugger to keep a head gasket in it. (loved to top out the 'hot
> rod' 1/4 mile Camaros and Vettes as I hit 4th at 104 mph @ 5000 rpm or
> so and waved as I went by)
>
> My buddy and I had a head gasket swap down to 30 minutes....
>
> The British Leyland dealer thought they had a bad batch of gaskets until
> they called me in for a 'free' check of my 'built' engine that a Mini
> guru they know well made... It broke the first compression gauge,
> popped the pin off.
>
> The starter would barely turn it over and it was a 'thumper' for idle
> with a 2 1/2" straight pipe and glass pack.
>
> I don't think Bill wants to get that good at swapping head gaskets
> unless he had the benefits I had....
>
> Mike
>
> c wrote:
> >
> > I just have to add my 2 cents here Bill. I hope to heck that whatever
they
> > do to fix the bolt problem works out for you. Things like this make me
glad
> > that I rebuild my own stuff. Anyway, for what you paid for the rebuild,
I
> > would insist that they change the head gasket. I don't know what type of
> > gasket they used, but some of them form quite a bond to the head and
block
> > surfaces, so relaxing the bolt torque could cause the gasket layers to
> > separate slightly. Then it becomes leak time. Like Mike said, since
there
> > were different types of bolts for the heads, the guy should have at
least
> > asked you where the special bracket bolt belonged, unless he knew for
sure
> > (which he didn't). The second thing here that would raise a red flag is
the
> > fact that the rebuilder didn't insist on changing the gasket after his
oops.
> > I rebuild engines in my own shop and would never risk that. Is he going
to
> > do all the labor and reimburse you for your car rental, towing, etc. if
the
> > gasket fails? If not, I would insist he change the gasket. The gasket is
> > probably about $40 at most, and and hour or two of his time to do it
right.
> > IMHO, this sounds like poor quality work.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > "William Oliveri" <wuji@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
> > news:2ga6scFhuirU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > > Ha ha.... I'm getting to know you well Mike. After the last post
that I
> > > knew you'd have that reply as I was thinking I'd have the same reply.
:-)
> > >
> > > Thanks for the Devil's Advocate. I certainly hope my 'luck' doesn't
fall
> > > into the 'bad' category from here out. I'm already shot to my bones
with
> > > nerves on this one.
> > >
> > > Come on housing crash so I can afford my own garage :-)
> > >
> > > Bill
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:409FE117.73D0C0AD@sympatico.ca...
> > > > I just like to play the devil's advocate some days Bill, I hope it
works
> > > > out great for you.
> > > >
> > > > Still, not knowing where the freaking bolts go sure doesn't instill
> > > > confidence in the statement 'I choose him because he has done this
mod
> > > > before and is fully familiar with it.'
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike, the mechanic didn't put the thing together. The
> > rebuilder/machine
> > > > > shop did. They did the rebuild on the short block and put my
> > previously
> > > > > machined 4.0L head on it.
> > > > >
> > > > > There are two entities in this process. 1. the R&R guy, you can
call
> > > him a
> > > > > mechanic. 2. The Machine Shop/Rebuilder.
> > > > >
> > > > > #2 is the one who bolted the thing together and I choose him
because
> > he
> > > has
> > > > > done this mod before and is fully familiar with it. This guy has
a
> > > history
> > > > > of jeeps including racing sand jeeps. He's the best I could find
in
> > > this
> > > > > area for this application.
> > > > >
> > > > > And
> > > > >
> > > > > He warranties the work for a year.
> > > > >
> > > > > He confirmed that it would be no problem for #1 (mechanic) to
change
> > the
> > > > > bolts so if he's wrong he'll have to fix it if it comes down to
it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:409FD597.39970CF5@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > He already has a mis match on the head gasket Steve.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > He is putting a 4.0 head onto a 4.2 block. That makes it a
> > 'twitchy'
> > > > > > installation to start.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 'I' would not take a chance on blowing a new engine for
something
> > that
> > > > > > dumb.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Maybe that is just me, but.... If I forked out in the order of
$2K
> > > plus
> > > > > > I most certainly would not take a chance on a head gasket that
> > 'might
> > > or
> > > > > > might not' be compromised.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have assembled and have seen assembled a whole pile of engines
> > over
> > > > > > the years and most people, let alone 'mechanics' stop and think
when
> > > > > > they find 2 head bolts that are nutted studs instead of bolts.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It seem 'logical' that these 'strange' bolt like things should
go
> > > > > > somewhere special eh?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > One is for the bracket, the other goes on the back drivers side
> > corner
> > > > > > for the ground strap to bolt onto.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In all due fairness poor Bill's 'mechanic' is kinda on the brain
> > dead
> > > > > > side to just put it together wrong without checking wouldn't you
> > say?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Steve G wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I've done it hundreds of times and there won't be a problem
> > > switching
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > bolts and just re-torquing those two. In all probability it's
one
> > of
> > > the
> > > > > > > outside bolts which are the last to be torqued in the sequence
> > > anyways.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In all fairness to the mechanic Mike, these guys have no way
of
> > > knowing
> > > > > > > which bolt is supposed to have the stud on it and different
> > > > > installations
> > > > > > > sometimes have different positions for that bolt. May not be
the
> > > case
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > all 4.0, although I doubt that they all come the same way in
all
> > > > > > > applications. I know for a fact lots of Pontiac, Buick and
Olds
> > > v-8's
> > > > > would
> > > > > > > have the head bolts with the stud on it in different locations
> > > depending
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > what model vehicle it was going in and the assembler would
have no
> > > way
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > knowing.
> > > > > > > Steve G.
> > > > > > > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:409FC445.928E9186@sympatico.ca...
> > > > > > > > I don't know where some of these 'mechanics' come from....
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > He put the 'wrong' bolt in the hole.....
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Man oh man, if it wasn't for bad you wouldn't have any luck
at
> > all
> > > > > would
> > > > > > > > you?
> > > > > > > > ;-)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I for one most certainly would not accept a rebuilt engine
with
> > an
> > > > > > > > already 'blown' head gasket.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Head gaskets only compress once.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in
'00
> > > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > William Oliveri wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Just had my engine rebuilt. New cam, new crank 10/10, new
> > > bearings,
> > > > > new
> > > > > > > > > pistons and rings, flywheel balanced and all married up to
my
> > > 4.0L
> > > > > head
> > > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > > the door.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Now the R&R guy has noticed one of the head bolts is out
of
> > > position
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > power steering bracket so he needs to switch them.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Is there any problem switching two head bolts which reside
> > side
> > > by
> > > > > side
> > > > > > > > > without going through the entire torquing sequence again?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > That is, can these two bolts be taking out, switched, put
back
> > > in
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > torqued down without any problems?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > R&R guy says no problem.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bill
> > >
> > >