Splicing into an Engine Wiring Harness
#51
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Splicing into an Engine Wiring Harness
Hi Lon,
I think if take a pair of side cutters and the cut what's used by
the manufacturer's connection in half, lengthwise you'll find that's
also fused. each little is stuck to each other and the case. So there's
no way se could duplicate it.
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Lon wrote:
>
> Being an electronics design engineer with special background in
> manufacturing and service engineering, I'd have to strongly disagree
> with you. For a big consulting fee, I could even prove it with
> statistics. Or ask why there are no solder joints in a modern car.
>
> The typical untrained person attempting to solder is going to do more
> damage than good. In my experience troubleshooting complex military and
> mainframes after some doofus decided to solder, there aren't that many
> NASA grade trained solder technicians that can do it right every time
> compared to using a good foolproof latching die based crimp tool. Worse
> are the techs who thought it was a good idea to solder the crimped
> connector "just for safety".
>
> A good gas tight crimp is actually superior to solder anyway. That is
> why no modern computer has used solder connections in the wiring looms
> for decades. Before crimp, wire wrap was more reliable once the issues
> of making sure it is gas tight and teflon wire cold flow were identified.
>
> A modern protective gel filled crimp connector properly applied and
> crimped beats any solder joint for mechanical and electrical integrity.
I think if take a pair of side cutters and the cut what's used by
the manufacturer's connection in half, lengthwise you'll find that's
also fused. each little is stuck to each other and the case. So there's
no way se could duplicate it.
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Lon wrote:
>
> Being an electronics design engineer with special background in
> manufacturing and service engineering, I'd have to strongly disagree
> with you. For a big consulting fee, I could even prove it with
> statistics. Or ask why there are no solder joints in a modern car.
>
> The typical untrained person attempting to solder is going to do more
> damage than good. In my experience troubleshooting complex military and
> mainframes after some doofus decided to solder, there aren't that many
> NASA grade trained solder technicians that can do it right every time
> compared to using a good foolproof latching die based crimp tool. Worse
> are the techs who thought it was a good idea to solder the crimped
> connector "just for safety".
>
> A good gas tight crimp is actually superior to solder anyway. That is
> why no modern computer has used solder connections in the wiring looms
> for decades. Before crimp, wire wrap was more reliable once the issues
> of making sure it is gas tight and teflon wire cold flow were identified.
>
> A modern protective gel filled crimp connector properly applied and
> crimped beats any solder joint for mechanical and electrical integrity.
#52
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Splicing into an Engine Wiring Harness
Hi Lon,
I think if take a pair of side cutters and the cut what's used by
the manufacturer's connection in half, lengthwise you'll find that's
also fused. each little is stuck to each other and the case. So there's
no way se could duplicate it.
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Lon wrote:
>
> Being an electronics design engineer with special background in
> manufacturing and service engineering, I'd have to strongly disagree
> with you. For a big consulting fee, I could even prove it with
> statistics. Or ask why there are no solder joints in a modern car.
>
> The typical untrained person attempting to solder is going to do more
> damage than good. In my experience troubleshooting complex military and
> mainframes after some doofus decided to solder, there aren't that many
> NASA grade trained solder technicians that can do it right every time
> compared to using a good foolproof latching die based crimp tool. Worse
> are the techs who thought it was a good idea to solder the crimped
> connector "just for safety".
>
> A good gas tight crimp is actually superior to solder anyway. That is
> why no modern computer has used solder connections in the wiring looms
> for decades. Before crimp, wire wrap was more reliable once the issues
> of making sure it is gas tight and teflon wire cold flow were identified.
>
> A modern protective gel filled crimp connector properly applied and
> crimped beats any solder joint for mechanical and electrical integrity.
I think if take a pair of side cutters and the cut what's used by
the manufacturer's connection in half, lengthwise you'll find that's
also fused. each little is stuck to each other and the case. So there's
no way se could duplicate it.
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Lon wrote:
>
> Being an electronics design engineer with special background in
> manufacturing and service engineering, I'd have to strongly disagree
> with you. For a big consulting fee, I could even prove it with
> statistics. Or ask why there are no solder joints in a modern car.
>
> The typical untrained person attempting to solder is going to do more
> damage than good. In my experience troubleshooting complex military and
> mainframes after some doofus decided to solder, there aren't that many
> NASA grade trained solder technicians that can do it right every time
> compared to using a good foolproof latching die based crimp tool. Worse
> are the techs who thought it was a good idea to solder the crimped
> connector "just for safety".
>
> A good gas tight crimp is actually superior to solder anyway. That is
> why no modern computer has used solder connections in the wiring looms
> for decades. Before crimp, wire wrap was more reliable once the issues
> of making sure it is gas tight and teflon wire cold flow were identified.
>
> A modern protective gel filled crimp connector properly applied and
> crimped beats any solder joint for mechanical and electrical integrity.
#53
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Splicing into an Engine Wiring Harness
I spent my first few years as a mechanic working on VWs., so i got to fix a
lot of fire-damaged harnesses, and later vOLVO CAME OUT WITH SOME THAT
(oops) just fell apart. Customers can't always afford an $800 engine harness
on a $1000 car, so I have fixed quite a few of those, too. I use crimpers
like this,
http://www.eclipsetools.com/ProductP...gs/100-039.JPG but mine
are made by Kline. I wouldn't use the cheap stamped type except as a
temporary emergency fix. When you pack the joint full of compound and crimp,
it squished the stuff up the wire a ways and prevents corrosion. Not as nice
or quite as resistance free as a soldered joint, but you can't make a living
doing Rolls Royce quality repairs on Hyundais. It works, and I have some
joints on my Jeepster that I did this way 15 years ago and they are still
clean..
--
Stupendous Man,
Defender of Freedom, Advocate of Liberty
lot of fire-damaged harnesses, and later vOLVO CAME OUT WITH SOME THAT
(oops) just fell apart. Customers can't always afford an $800 engine harness
on a $1000 car, so I have fixed quite a few of those, too. I use crimpers
like this,
http://www.eclipsetools.com/ProductP...gs/100-039.JPG but mine
are made by Kline. I wouldn't use the cheap stamped type except as a
temporary emergency fix. When you pack the joint full of compound and crimp,
it squished the stuff up the wire a ways and prevents corrosion. Not as nice
or quite as resistance free as a soldered joint, but you can't make a living
doing Rolls Royce quality repairs on Hyundais. It works, and I have some
joints on my Jeepster that I did this way 15 years ago and they are still
clean..
--
Stupendous Man,
Defender of Freedom, Advocate of Liberty
#54
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Splicing into an Engine Wiring Harness
I spent my first few years as a mechanic working on VWs., so i got to fix a
lot of fire-damaged harnesses, and later vOLVO CAME OUT WITH SOME THAT
(oops) just fell apart. Customers can't always afford an $800 engine harness
on a $1000 car, so I have fixed quite a few of those, too. I use crimpers
like this,
http://www.eclipsetools.com/ProductP...gs/100-039.JPG but mine
are made by Kline. I wouldn't use the cheap stamped type except as a
temporary emergency fix. When you pack the joint full of compound and crimp,
it squished the stuff up the wire a ways and prevents corrosion. Not as nice
or quite as resistance free as a soldered joint, but you can't make a living
doing Rolls Royce quality repairs on Hyundais. It works, and I have some
joints on my Jeepster that I did this way 15 years ago and they are still
clean..
--
Stupendous Man,
Defender of Freedom, Advocate of Liberty
lot of fire-damaged harnesses, and later vOLVO CAME OUT WITH SOME THAT
(oops) just fell apart. Customers can't always afford an $800 engine harness
on a $1000 car, so I have fixed quite a few of those, too. I use crimpers
like this,
http://www.eclipsetools.com/ProductP...gs/100-039.JPG but mine
are made by Kline. I wouldn't use the cheap stamped type except as a
temporary emergency fix. When you pack the joint full of compound and crimp,
it squished the stuff up the wire a ways and prevents corrosion. Not as nice
or quite as resistance free as a soldered joint, but you can't make a living
doing Rolls Royce quality repairs on Hyundais. It works, and I have some
joints on my Jeepster that I did this way 15 years ago and they are still
clean..
--
Stupendous Man,
Defender of Freedom, Advocate of Liberty
#55
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Splicing into an Engine Wiring Harness
I spent my first few years as a mechanic working on VWs., so i got to fix a
lot of fire-damaged harnesses, and later vOLVO CAME OUT WITH SOME THAT
(oops) just fell apart. Customers can't always afford an $800 engine harness
on a $1000 car, so I have fixed quite a few of those, too. I use crimpers
like this,
http://www.eclipsetools.com/ProductP...gs/100-039.JPG but mine
are made by Kline. I wouldn't use the cheap stamped type except as a
temporary emergency fix. When you pack the joint full of compound and crimp,
it squished the stuff up the wire a ways and prevents corrosion. Not as nice
or quite as resistance free as a soldered joint, but you can't make a living
doing Rolls Royce quality repairs on Hyundais. It works, and I have some
joints on my Jeepster that I did this way 15 years ago and they are still
clean..
--
Stupendous Man,
Defender of Freedom, Advocate of Liberty
lot of fire-damaged harnesses, and later vOLVO CAME OUT WITH SOME THAT
(oops) just fell apart. Customers can't always afford an $800 engine harness
on a $1000 car, so I have fixed quite a few of those, too. I use crimpers
like this,
http://www.eclipsetools.com/ProductP...gs/100-039.JPG but mine
are made by Kline. I wouldn't use the cheap stamped type except as a
temporary emergency fix. When you pack the joint full of compound and crimp,
it squished the stuff up the wire a ways and prevents corrosion. Not as nice
or quite as resistance free as a soldered joint, but you can't make a living
doing Rolls Royce quality repairs on Hyundais. It works, and I have some
joints on my Jeepster that I did this way 15 years ago and they are still
clean..
--
Stupendous Man,
Defender of Freedom, Advocate of Liberty
#56
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Splicing into an Engine Wiring Harness
You may be right... I get spoiled by having Frys as the *low* end of
readily available decent electronics parts. Plus I should mention that
there is no good, cheap, crimp tool. The good ones all have separate
dies for every wire and/or insulation size combination--plus they use a
ratcheting action such that the jaws won't open until the tool has been
closed to provide a proper crimp.
As for automobile versus aerospace, we disagree. What works for one
works quite nicely for the other with appropriate consideration for the
environment. e.g. what is good for a bomber is rarely good enough for an
automobile, particularly one known to have a taste for mud and water.
That's why I recommended sticking purely to the pre-gelled crimp
fittings. So far, I haven't run across any of those of crappy quality
like some of the stuff sold in blister paks at cheap parts stores.
The gel is nice, particularly for jeepers in keeping crud out of the
crimp.
As for cutting out the old wiring, I would hope that is obvious. I'd
recommend cutting several inches past any insulation that is at all
discolored, misshapen, etc. The next part is that you need to clean
the old wiring before crimping. I use a mild metal pickle, then rinse
carefully and a fine glass abrasive brush to make sure totally clean and
unoxidized metal is exposed to the crimp.
Of course if it were my vehicle, I'd consider a replacement harness that
I could pick apart and put in as necessary, ideally with mimimal use of
the old stuff.
Rich proclaimed:
> Lon,
> There is validity to what you say, but our original poster is repairing
> wiring on an old Wrangler not an F-117. The crimp-on connectors he's
> probably going to be buying are going to come from somewhere like Car-Quest
> or Pep-Boys. Cheap junk on a good day. While I by no means profess to be an
> engineer I do have real world experience with electronics in all types of
> environments including salt water. I still assert that he'd do better
> soldering and properly heat shrinking. If he were fixing a B2 Bomber or a
> SPY-1 Radar I'd say you might be right.
> Put it in perspective.
>
>
> "Lon" <lon.stowell@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:B7WdnawVYefSVvLeRVn-rQ@comcast.com...
>
>>Being an electronics design engineer with special background in
>>manufacturing and service engineering, I'd have to strongly disagree with
>>you. For a big consulting fee, I could even prove it with statistics. Or
>>ask why there are no solder joints in a modern car.
>>
>>The typical untrained person attempting to solder is going to do more
>>damage than good. In my experience troubleshooting complex military and
>>mainframes after some doofus decided to solder, there aren't that many
>>NASA grade trained solder technicians that can do it right every time
>>compared to using a good foolproof latching die based crimp tool. Worse
>>are the techs who thought it was a good idea to solder the crimped
>>connector "just for safety".
>>
>>A good gas tight crimp is actually superior to solder anyway. That is why
>>no modern computer has used solder connections in the wiring looms for
>>decades. Before crimp, wire wrap was more reliable once the issues of
>>making sure it is gas tight and teflon wire cold flow were identified.
>>
>>A modern protective gel filled crimp connector properly applied and
>>crimped beats any solder joint for mechanical and electrical integrity.
>>
>>
>>
>>Rich proclaimed:
>>
>>
>>>Been an electronics technician for 20 years....
>>>Don't use crimp connectors or reinsulate with electrical tape. Both are
>>>bad practices.
>>>Do it right, and solder in new wires. I'd recommend you go to the
>>>boneyard as someone else said and find that part of the wire loom, cut
>>>out the part you need keeping everything intact from the bad area to the
>>>terminus of each wire as practically as possible and replace the whole
>>>shooting match. Stagger the solder connections, use rosin core not acid
>>>core solder, and be sure to use flux on the wires.
>>>First and foremost if you don't have experience at soldering, PRACTICE on
>>>some other wires to get the technique down before going in. Soldering is
>>>very easy with a bit of practice and guidance.
>>>Lastly use heatshrink on each connection and make sure it forms a tight
>>>seal.
>>>
>>>"Stupendous Man" <spam@trap.com> wrote in message
>>>news:3t7ph8Fr7vgdU1@individual.net...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Stuff like this can be easily, quickly, and permanently fixed with
>>>>crimps. They make a type that has an heat-shrink insulator, so squeeze
>>>>some dielectric grease in, crimp the wires, heat shrink the insulator,
>>>>and you are done. The dielectric will prevent any moisture from getting
>>>>in and corroding. Tie the whole mess away from the exhaust with some Adel
>>>>clamps to prevent having to do it again.
>>>>It's only a car, why waste time overdoing it?
>>>>--
>>>>Stupendous Man,
>>>>Defender of Freedom, Advocate of Liberty
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
readily available decent electronics parts. Plus I should mention that
there is no good, cheap, crimp tool. The good ones all have separate
dies for every wire and/or insulation size combination--plus they use a
ratcheting action such that the jaws won't open until the tool has been
closed to provide a proper crimp.
As for automobile versus aerospace, we disagree. What works for one
works quite nicely for the other with appropriate consideration for the
environment. e.g. what is good for a bomber is rarely good enough for an
automobile, particularly one known to have a taste for mud and water.
That's why I recommended sticking purely to the pre-gelled crimp
fittings. So far, I haven't run across any of those of crappy quality
like some of the stuff sold in blister paks at cheap parts stores.
The gel is nice, particularly for jeepers in keeping crud out of the
crimp.
As for cutting out the old wiring, I would hope that is obvious. I'd
recommend cutting several inches past any insulation that is at all
discolored, misshapen, etc. The next part is that you need to clean
the old wiring before crimping. I use a mild metal pickle, then rinse
carefully and a fine glass abrasive brush to make sure totally clean and
unoxidized metal is exposed to the crimp.
Of course if it were my vehicle, I'd consider a replacement harness that
I could pick apart and put in as necessary, ideally with mimimal use of
the old stuff.
Rich proclaimed:
> Lon,
> There is validity to what you say, but our original poster is repairing
> wiring on an old Wrangler not an F-117. The crimp-on connectors he's
> probably going to be buying are going to come from somewhere like Car-Quest
> or Pep-Boys. Cheap junk on a good day. While I by no means profess to be an
> engineer I do have real world experience with electronics in all types of
> environments including salt water. I still assert that he'd do better
> soldering and properly heat shrinking. If he were fixing a B2 Bomber or a
> SPY-1 Radar I'd say you might be right.
> Put it in perspective.
>
>
> "Lon" <lon.stowell@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:B7WdnawVYefSVvLeRVn-rQ@comcast.com...
>
>>Being an electronics design engineer with special background in
>>manufacturing and service engineering, I'd have to strongly disagree with
>>you. For a big consulting fee, I could even prove it with statistics. Or
>>ask why there are no solder joints in a modern car.
>>
>>The typical untrained person attempting to solder is going to do more
>>damage than good. In my experience troubleshooting complex military and
>>mainframes after some doofus decided to solder, there aren't that many
>>NASA grade trained solder technicians that can do it right every time
>>compared to using a good foolproof latching die based crimp tool. Worse
>>are the techs who thought it was a good idea to solder the crimped
>>connector "just for safety".
>>
>>A good gas tight crimp is actually superior to solder anyway. That is why
>>no modern computer has used solder connections in the wiring looms for
>>decades. Before crimp, wire wrap was more reliable once the issues of
>>making sure it is gas tight and teflon wire cold flow were identified.
>>
>>A modern protective gel filled crimp connector properly applied and
>>crimped beats any solder joint for mechanical and electrical integrity.
>>
>>
>>
>>Rich proclaimed:
>>
>>
>>>Been an electronics technician for 20 years....
>>>Don't use crimp connectors or reinsulate with electrical tape. Both are
>>>bad practices.
>>>Do it right, and solder in new wires. I'd recommend you go to the
>>>boneyard as someone else said and find that part of the wire loom, cut
>>>out the part you need keeping everything intact from the bad area to the
>>>terminus of each wire as practically as possible and replace the whole
>>>shooting match. Stagger the solder connections, use rosin core not acid
>>>core solder, and be sure to use flux on the wires.
>>>First and foremost if you don't have experience at soldering, PRACTICE on
>>>some other wires to get the technique down before going in. Soldering is
>>>very easy with a bit of practice and guidance.
>>>Lastly use heatshrink on each connection and make sure it forms a tight
>>>seal.
>>>
>>>"Stupendous Man" <spam@trap.com> wrote in message
>>>news:3t7ph8Fr7vgdU1@individual.net...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Stuff like this can be easily, quickly, and permanently fixed with
>>>>crimps. They make a type that has an heat-shrink insulator, so squeeze
>>>>some dielectric grease in, crimp the wires, heat shrink the insulator,
>>>>and you are done. The dielectric will prevent any moisture from getting
>>>>in and corroding. Tie the whole mess away from the exhaust with some Adel
>>>>clamps to prevent having to do it again.
>>>>It's only a car, why waste time overdoing it?
>>>>--
>>>>Stupendous Man,
>>>>Defender of Freedom, Advocate of Liberty
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
#57
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Splicing into an Engine Wiring Harness
You may be right... I get spoiled by having Frys as the *low* end of
readily available decent electronics parts. Plus I should mention that
there is no good, cheap, crimp tool. The good ones all have separate
dies for every wire and/or insulation size combination--plus they use a
ratcheting action such that the jaws won't open until the tool has been
closed to provide a proper crimp.
As for automobile versus aerospace, we disagree. What works for one
works quite nicely for the other with appropriate consideration for the
environment. e.g. what is good for a bomber is rarely good enough for an
automobile, particularly one known to have a taste for mud and water.
That's why I recommended sticking purely to the pre-gelled crimp
fittings. So far, I haven't run across any of those of crappy quality
like some of the stuff sold in blister paks at cheap parts stores.
The gel is nice, particularly for jeepers in keeping crud out of the
crimp.
As for cutting out the old wiring, I would hope that is obvious. I'd
recommend cutting several inches past any insulation that is at all
discolored, misshapen, etc. The next part is that you need to clean
the old wiring before crimping. I use a mild metal pickle, then rinse
carefully and a fine glass abrasive brush to make sure totally clean and
unoxidized metal is exposed to the crimp.
Of course if it were my vehicle, I'd consider a replacement harness that
I could pick apart and put in as necessary, ideally with mimimal use of
the old stuff.
Rich proclaimed:
> Lon,
> There is validity to what you say, but our original poster is repairing
> wiring on an old Wrangler not an F-117. The crimp-on connectors he's
> probably going to be buying are going to come from somewhere like Car-Quest
> or Pep-Boys. Cheap junk on a good day. While I by no means profess to be an
> engineer I do have real world experience with electronics in all types of
> environments including salt water. I still assert that he'd do better
> soldering and properly heat shrinking. If he were fixing a B2 Bomber or a
> SPY-1 Radar I'd say you might be right.
> Put it in perspective.
>
>
> "Lon" <lon.stowell@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:B7WdnawVYefSVvLeRVn-rQ@comcast.com...
>
>>Being an electronics design engineer with special background in
>>manufacturing and service engineering, I'd have to strongly disagree with
>>you. For a big consulting fee, I could even prove it with statistics. Or
>>ask why there are no solder joints in a modern car.
>>
>>The typical untrained person attempting to solder is going to do more
>>damage than good. In my experience troubleshooting complex military and
>>mainframes after some doofus decided to solder, there aren't that many
>>NASA grade trained solder technicians that can do it right every time
>>compared to using a good foolproof latching die based crimp tool. Worse
>>are the techs who thought it was a good idea to solder the crimped
>>connector "just for safety".
>>
>>A good gas tight crimp is actually superior to solder anyway. That is why
>>no modern computer has used solder connections in the wiring looms for
>>decades. Before crimp, wire wrap was more reliable once the issues of
>>making sure it is gas tight and teflon wire cold flow were identified.
>>
>>A modern protective gel filled crimp connector properly applied and
>>crimped beats any solder joint for mechanical and electrical integrity.
>>
>>
>>
>>Rich proclaimed:
>>
>>
>>>Been an electronics technician for 20 years....
>>>Don't use crimp connectors or reinsulate with electrical tape. Both are
>>>bad practices.
>>>Do it right, and solder in new wires. I'd recommend you go to the
>>>boneyard as someone else said and find that part of the wire loom, cut
>>>out the part you need keeping everything intact from the bad area to the
>>>terminus of each wire as practically as possible and replace the whole
>>>shooting match. Stagger the solder connections, use rosin core not acid
>>>core solder, and be sure to use flux on the wires.
>>>First and foremost if you don't have experience at soldering, PRACTICE on
>>>some other wires to get the technique down before going in. Soldering is
>>>very easy with a bit of practice and guidance.
>>>Lastly use heatshrink on each connection and make sure it forms a tight
>>>seal.
>>>
>>>"Stupendous Man" <spam@trap.com> wrote in message
>>>news:3t7ph8Fr7vgdU1@individual.net...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Stuff like this can be easily, quickly, and permanently fixed with
>>>>crimps. They make a type that has an heat-shrink insulator, so squeeze
>>>>some dielectric grease in, crimp the wires, heat shrink the insulator,
>>>>and you are done. The dielectric will prevent any moisture from getting
>>>>in and corroding. Tie the whole mess away from the exhaust with some Adel
>>>>clamps to prevent having to do it again.
>>>>It's only a car, why waste time overdoing it?
>>>>--
>>>>Stupendous Man,
>>>>Defender of Freedom, Advocate of Liberty
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
readily available decent electronics parts. Plus I should mention that
there is no good, cheap, crimp tool. The good ones all have separate
dies for every wire and/or insulation size combination--plus they use a
ratcheting action such that the jaws won't open until the tool has been
closed to provide a proper crimp.
As for automobile versus aerospace, we disagree. What works for one
works quite nicely for the other with appropriate consideration for the
environment. e.g. what is good for a bomber is rarely good enough for an
automobile, particularly one known to have a taste for mud and water.
That's why I recommended sticking purely to the pre-gelled crimp
fittings. So far, I haven't run across any of those of crappy quality
like some of the stuff sold in blister paks at cheap parts stores.
The gel is nice, particularly for jeepers in keeping crud out of the
crimp.
As for cutting out the old wiring, I would hope that is obvious. I'd
recommend cutting several inches past any insulation that is at all
discolored, misshapen, etc. The next part is that you need to clean
the old wiring before crimping. I use a mild metal pickle, then rinse
carefully and a fine glass abrasive brush to make sure totally clean and
unoxidized metal is exposed to the crimp.
Of course if it were my vehicle, I'd consider a replacement harness that
I could pick apart and put in as necessary, ideally with mimimal use of
the old stuff.
Rich proclaimed:
> Lon,
> There is validity to what you say, but our original poster is repairing
> wiring on an old Wrangler not an F-117. The crimp-on connectors he's
> probably going to be buying are going to come from somewhere like Car-Quest
> or Pep-Boys. Cheap junk on a good day. While I by no means profess to be an
> engineer I do have real world experience with electronics in all types of
> environments including salt water. I still assert that he'd do better
> soldering and properly heat shrinking. If he were fixing a B2 Bomber or a
> SPY-1 Radar I'd say you might be right.
> Put it in perspective.
>
>
> "Lon" <lon.stowell@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:B7WdnawVYefSVvLeRVn-rQ@comcast.com...
>
>>Being an electronics design engineer with special background in
>>manufacturing and service engineering, I'd have to strongly disagree with
>>you. For a big consulting fee, I could even prove it with statistics. Or
>>ask why there are no solder joints in a modern car.
>>
>>The typical untrained person attempting to solder is going to do more
>>damage than good. In my experience troubleshooting complex military and
>>mainframes after some doofus decided to solder, there aren't that many
>>NASA grade trained solder technicians that can do it right every time
>>compared to using a good foolproof latching die based crimp tool. Worse
>>are the techs who thought it was a good idea to solder the crimped
>>connector "just for safety".
>>
>>A good gas tight crimp is actually superior to solder anyway. That is why
>>no modern computer has used solder connections in the wiring looms for
>>decades. Before crimp, wire wrap was more reliable once the issues of
>>making sure it is gas tight and teflon wire cold flow were identified.
>>
>>A modern protective gel filled crimp connector properly applied and
>>crimped beats any solder joint for mechanical and electrical integrity.
>>
>>
>>
>>Rich proclaimed:
>>
>>
>>>Been an electronics technician for 20 years....
>>>Don't use crimp connectors or reinsulate with electrical tape. Both are
>>>bad practices.
>>>Do it right, and solder in new wires. I'd recommend you go to the
>>>boneyard as someone else said and find that part of the wire loom, cut
>>>out the part you need keeping everything intact from the bad area to the
>>>terminus of each wire as practically as possible and replace the whole
>>>shooting match. Stagger the solder connections, use rosin core not acid
>>>core solder, and be sure to use flux on the wires.
>>>First and foremost if you don't have experience at soldering, PRACTICE on
>>>some other wires to get the technique down before going in. Soldering is
>>>very easy with a bit of practice and guidance.
>>>Lastly use heatshrink on each connection and make sure it forms a tight
>>>seal.
>>>
>>>"Stupendous Man" <spam@trap.com> wrote in message
>>>news:3t7ph8Fr7vgdU1@individual.net...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Stuff like this can be easily, quickly, and permanently fixed with
>>>>crimps. They make a type that has an heat-shrink insulator, so squeeze
>>>>some dielectric grease in, crimp the wires, heat shrink the insulator,
>>>>and you are done. The dielectric will prevent any moisture from getting
>>>>in and corroding. Tie the whole mess away from the exhaust with some Adel
>>>>clamps to prevent having to do it again.
>>>>It's only a car, why waste time overdoing it?
>>>>--
>>>>Stupendous Man,
>>>>Defender of Freedom, Advocate of Liberty
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
#58
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Splicing into an Engine Wiring Harness
You may be right... I get spoiled by having Frys as the *low* end of
readily available decent electronics parts. Plus I should mention that
there is no good, cheap, crimp tool. The good ones all have separate
dies for every wire and/or insulation size combination--plus they use a
ratcheting action such that the jaws won't open until the tool has been
closed to provide a proper crimp.
As for automobile versus aerospace, we disagree. What works for one
works quite nicely for the other with appropriate consideration for the
environment. e.g. what is good for a bomber is rarely good enough for an
automobile, particularly one known to have a taste for mud and water.
That's why I recommended sticking purely to the pre-gelled crimp
fittings. So far, I haven't run across any of those of crappy quality
like some of the stuff sold in blister paks at cheap parts stores.
The gel is nice, particularly for jeepers in keeping crud out of the
crimp.
As for cutting out the old wiring, I would hope that is obvious. I'd
recommend cutting several inches past any insulation that is at all
discolored, misshapen, etc. The next part is that you need to clean
the old wiring before crimping. I use a mild metal pickle, then rinse
carefully and a fine glass abrasive brush to make sure totally clean and
unoxidized metal is exposed to the crimp.
Of course if it were my vehicle, I'd consider a replacement harness that
I could pick apart and put in as necessary, ideally with mimimal use of
the old stuff.
Rich proclaimed:
> Lon,
> There is validity to what you say, but our original poster is repairing
> wiring on an old Wrangler not an F-117. The crimp-on connectors he's
> probably going to be buying are going to come from somewhere like Car-Quest
> or Pep-Boys. Cheap junk on a good day. While I by no means profess to be an
> engineer I do have real world experience with electronics in all types of
> environments including salt water. I still assert that he'd do better
> soldering and properly heat shrinking. If he were fixing a B2 Bomber or a
> SPY-1 Radar I'd say you might be right.
> Put it in perspective.
>
>
> "Lon" <lon.stowell@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:B7WdnawVYefSVvLeRVn-rQ@comcast.com...
>
>>Being an electronics design engineer with special background in
>>manufacturing and service engineering, I'd have to strongly disagree with
>>you. For a big consulting fee, I could even prove it with statistics. Or
>>ask why there are no solder joints in a modern car.
>>
>>The typical untrained person attempting to solder is going to do more
>>damage than good. In my experience troubleshooting complex military and
>>mainframes after some doofus decided to solder, there aren't that many
>>NASA grade trained solder technicians that can do it right every time
>>compared to using a good foolproof latching die based crimp tool. Worse
>>are the techs who thought it was a good idea to solder the crimped
>>connector "just for safety".
>>
>>A good gas tight crimp is actually superior to solder anyway. That is why
>>no modern computer has used solder connections in the wiring looms for
>>decades. Before crimp, wire wrap was more reliable once the issues of
>>making sure it is gas tight and teflon wire cold flow were identified.
>>
>>A modern protective gel filled crimp connector properly applied and
>>crimped beats any solder joint for mechanical and electrical integrity.
>>
>>
>>
>>Rich proclaimed:
>>
>>
>>>Been an electronics technician for 20 years....
>>>Don't use crimp connectors or reinsulate with electrical tape. Both are
>>>bad practices.
>>>Do it right, and solder in new wires. I'd recommend you go to the
>>>boneyard as someone else said and find that part of the wire loom, cut
>>>out the part you need keeping everything intact from the bad area to the
>>>terminus of each wire as practically as possible and replace the whole
>>>shooting match. Stagger the solder connections, use rosin core not acid
>>>core solder, and be sure to use flux on the wires.
>>>First and foremost if you don't have experience at soldering, PRACTICE on
>>>some other wires to get the technique down before going in. Soldering is
>>>very easy with a bit of practice and guidance.
>>>Lastly use heatshrink on each connection and make sure it forms a tight
>>>seal.
>>>
>>>"Stupendous Man" <spam@trap.com> wrote in message
>>>news:3t7ph8Fr7vgdU1@individual.net...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Stuff like this can be easily, quickly, and permanently fixed with
>>>>crimps. They make a type that has an heat-shrink insulator, so squeeze
>>>>some dielectric grease in, crimp the wires, heat shrink the insulator,
>>>>and you are done. The dielectric will prevent any moisture from getting
>>>>in and corroding. Tie the whole mess away from the exhaust with some Adel
>>>>clamps to prevent having to do it again.
>>>>It's only a car, why waste time overdoing it?
>>>>--
>>>>Stupendous Man,
>>>>Defender of Freedom, Advocate of Liberty
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
readily available decent electronics parts. Plus I should mention that
there is no good, cheap, crimp tool. The good ones all have separate
dies for every wire and/or insulation size combination--plus they use a
ratcheting action such that the jaws won't open until the tool has been
closed to provide a proper crimp.
As for automobile versus aerospace, we disagree. What works for one
works quite nicely for the other with appropriate consideration for the
environment. e.g. what is good for a bomber is rarely good enough for an
automobile, particularly one known to have a taste for mud and water.
That's why I recommended sticking purely to the pre-gelled crimp
fittings. So far, I haven't run across any of those of crappy quality
like some of the stuff sold in blister paks at cheap parts stores.
The gel is nice, particularly for jeepers in keeping crud out of the
crimp.
As for cutting out the old wiring, I would hope that is obvious. I'd
recommend cutting several inches past any insulation that is at all
discolored, misshapen, etc. The next part is that you need to clean
the old wiring before crimping. I use a mild metal pickle, then rinse
carefully and a fine glass abrasive brush to make sure totally clean and
unoxidized metal is exposed to the crimp.
Of course if it were my vehicle, I'd consider a replacement harness that
I could pick apart and put in as necessary, ideally with mimimal use of
the old stuff.
Rich proclaimed:
> Lon,
> There is validity to what you say, but our original poster is repairing
> wiring on an old Wrangler not an F-117. The crimp-on connectors he's
> probably going to be buying are going to come from somewhere like Car-Quest
> or Pep-Boys. Cheap junk on a good day. While I by no means profess to be an
> engineer I do have real world experience with electronics in all types of
> environments including salt water. I still assert that he'd do better
> soldering and properly heat shrinking. If he were fixing a B2 Bomber or a
> SPY-1 Radar I'd say you might be right.
> Put it in perspective.
>
>
> "Lon" <lon.stowell@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:B7WdnawVYefSVvLeRVn-rQ@comcast.com...
>
>>Being an electronics design engineer with special background in
>>manufacturing and service engineering, I'd have to strongly disagree with
>>you. For a big consulting fee, I could even prove it with statistics. Or
>>ask why there are no solder joints in a modern car.
>>
>>The typical untrained person attempting to solder is going to do more
>>damage than good. In my experience troubleshooting complex military and
>>mainframes after some doofus decided to solder, there aren't that many
>>NASA grade trained solder technicians that can do it right every time
>>compared to using a good foolproof latching die based crimp tool. Worse
>>are the techs who thought it was a good idea to solder the crimped
>>connector "just for safety".
>>
>>A good gas tight crimp is actually superior to solder anyway. That is why
>>no modern computer has used solder connections in the wiring looms for
>>decades. Before crimp, wire wrap was more reliable once the issues of
>>making sure it is gas tight and teflon wire cold flow were identified.
>>
>>A modern protective gel filled crimp connector properly applied and
>>crimped beats any solder joint for mechanical and electrical integrity.
>>
>>
>>
>>Rich proclaimed:
>>
>>
>>>Been an electronics technician for 20 years....
>>>Don't use crimp connectors or reinsulate with electrical tape. Both are
>>>bad practices.
>>>Do it right, and solder in new wires. I'd recommend you go to the
>>>boneyard as someone else said and find that part of the wire loom, cut
>>>out the part you need keeping everything intact from the bad area to the
>>>terminus of each wire as practically as possible and replace the whole
>>>shooting match. Stagger the solder connections, use rosin core not acid
>>>core solder, and be sure to use flux on the wires.
>>>First and foremost if you don't have experience at soldering, PRACTICE on
>>>some other wires to get the technique down before going in. Soldering is
>>>very easy with a bit of practice and guidance.
>>>Lastly use heatshrink on each connection and make sure it forms a tight
>>>seal.
>>>
>>>"Stupendous Man" <spam@trap.com> wrote in message
>>>news:3t7ph8Fr7vgdU1@individual.net...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Stuff like this can be easily, quickly, and permanently fixed with
>>>>crimps. They make a type that has an heat-shrink insulator, so squeeze
>>>>some dielectric grease in, crimp the wires, heat shrink the insulator,
>>>>and you are done. The dielectric will prevent any moisture from getting
>>>>in and corroding. Tie the whole mess away from the exhaust with some Adel
>>>>clamps to prevent having to do it again.
>>>>It's only a car, why waste time overdoing it?
>>>>--
>>>>Stupendous Man,
>>>>Defender of Freedom, Advocate of Liberty
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
#59
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Splicing into an Engine Wiring Harness
Wow, what a lot of great comments. What I've gotten out of it is that
if I'm going to solder, do it right -- there's more to it than having
my son hold the two wires together while I drip some melted solder onto
them. If I'm going to use crimp connectors, use good ones with a
proper crimping tool.
I hadn't thought of going to a boneyard and taking out just the part of
the harness that I need. The thought of replacing the whole thing kind
of turned me off of the used market because I figured I would spend as
much time pulling it out as I would installing it. And I'd probably
damage it in the process. But just taking what I need will work since
that part is easily accessible anyway.
This whole thing started when a mechanic told me that I had to replace
the whole thing and he found a used one in California for $450 that he
could probably install. Repairing the old one was out of the question
because it was too damaged. I took his word for it but wasn't too
pleased about the cost of installing a new harness. So he suggested
converting to a Fuel Injection system. So I ordered a Howell kit and
delivered it to him. Two weeks later he still hadn't even pulled my
jeep out of his storage (yes, this was going on six months). I told
him I just wanted it back and that I would install the FI kit myself.
When I started to dig into it, I discovered that the harness was not so
badly fried. In fact the strands themselves were still intact.
Hence, this discussion.
But hey, since I have the $1100 dollar FI kit, what's the vote? Should
I put it in or save the money? I did a temporary taping job on the
wires just to see how she would run, and all seems OK so far. So now
I'm ready to go for a more permanent solution. Should I repair the old
harness in a manner suggested above and try to return the kit, or suck
down the cost of the kit and install it?
This jeep is a long commuter (30 miles 1 way) for me now, but will soon
be my son's short commute school car.
Thanks in advance,
Howard
if I'm going to solder, do it right -- there's more to it than having
my son hold the two wires together while I drip some melted solder onto
them. If I'm going to use crimp connectors, use good ones with a
proper crimping tool.
I hadn't thought of going to a boneyard and taking out just the part of
the harness that I need. The thought of replacing the whole thing kind
of turned me off of the used market because I figured I would spend as
much time pulling it out as I would installing it. And I'd probably
damage it in the process. But just taking what I need will work since
that part is easily accessible anyway.
This whole thing started when a mechanic told me that I had to replace
the whole thing and he found a used one in California for $450 that he
could probably install. Repairing the old one was out of the question
because it was too damaged. I took his word for it but wasn't too
pleased about the cost of installing a new harness. So he suggested
converting to a Fuel Injection system. So I ordered a Howell kit and
delivered it to him. Two weeks later he still hadn't even pulled my
jeep out of his storage (yes, this was going on six months). I told
him I just wanted it back and that I would install the FI kit myself.
When I started to dig into it, I discovered that the harness was not so
badly fried. In fact the strands themselves were still intact.
Hence, this discussion.
But hey, since I have the $1100 dollar FI kit, what's the vote? Should
I put it in or save the money? I did a temporary taping job on the
wires just to see how she would run, and all seems OK so far. So now
I'm ready to go for a more permanent solution. Should I repair the old
harness in a manner suggested above and try to return the kit, or suck
down the cost of the kit and install it?
This jeep is a long commuter (30 miles 1 way) for me now, but will soon
be my son's short commute school car.
Thanks in advance,
Howard
#60
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Splicing into an Engine Wiring Harness
Wow, what a lot of great comments. What I've gotten out of it is that
if I'm going to solder, do it right -- there's more to it than having
my son hold the two wires together while I drip some melted solder onto
them. If I'm going to use crimp connectors, use good ones with a
proper crimping tool.
I hadn't thought of going to a boneyard and taking out just the part of
the harness that I need. The thought of replacing the whole thing kind
of turned me off of the used market because I figured I would spend as
much time pulling it out as I would installing it. And I'd probably
damage it in the process. But just taking what I need will work since
that part is easily accessible anyway.
This whole thing started when a mechanic told me that I had to replace
the whole thing and he found a used one in California for $450 that he
could probably install. Repairing the old one was out of the question
because it was too damaged. I took his word for it but wasn't too
pleased about the cost of installing a new harness. So he suggested
converting to a Fuel Injection system. So I ordered a Howell kit and
delivered it to him. Two weeks later he still hadn't even pulled my
jeep out of his storage (yes, this was going on six months). I told
him I just wanted it back and that I would install the FI kit myself.
When I started to dig into it, I discovered that the harness was not so
badly fried. In fact the strands themselves were still intact.
Hence, this discussion.
But hey, since I have the $1100 dollar FI kit, what's the vote? Should
I put it in or save the money? I did a temporary taping job on the
wires just to see how she would run, and all seems OK so far. So now
I'm ready to go for a more permanent solution. Should I repair the old
harness in a manner suggested above and try to return the kit, or suck
down the cost of the kit and install it?
This jeep is a long commuter (30 miles 1 way) for me now, but will soon
be my son's short commute school car.
Thanks in advance,
Howard
if I'm going to solder, do it right -- there's more to it than having
my son hold the two wires together while I drip some melted solder onto
them. If I'm going to use crimp connectors, use good ones with a
proper crimping tool.
I hadn't thought of going to a boneyard and taking out just the part of
the harness that I need. The thought of replacing the whole thing kind
of turned me off of the used market because I figured I would spend as
much time pulling it out as I would installing it. And I'd probably
damage it in the process. But just taking what I need will work since
that part is easily accessible anyway.
This whole thing started when a mechanic told me that I had to replace
the whole thing and he found a used one in California for $450 that he
could probably install. Repairing the old one was out of the question
because it was too damaged. I took his word for it but wasn't too
pleased about the cost of installing a new harness. So he suggested
converting to a Fuel Injection system. So I ordered a Howell kit and
delivered it to him. Two weeks later he still hadn't even pulled my
jeep out of his storage (yes, this was going on six months). I told
him I just wanted it back and that I would install the FI kit myself.
When I started to dig into it, I discovered that the harness was not so
badly fried. In fact the strands themselves were still intact.
Hence, this discussion.
But hey, since I have the $1100 dollar FI kit, what's the vote? Should
I put it in or save the money? I did a temporary taping job on the
wires just to see how she would run, and all seems OK so far. So now
I'm ready to go for a more permanent solution. Should I repair the old
harness in a manner suggested above and try to return the kit, or suck
down the cost of the kit and install it?
This jeep is a long commuter (30 miles 1 way) for me now, but will soon
be my son's short commute school car.
Thanks in advance,
Howard