Snow-crawl on steep incline--LONG
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Snow-crawl on steep incline--LONG
That is true too. The trick is to find that crucial balance where the engine
is both the Go and the Stop, or sometimes the best one can hope for is Slow
Down.
"SteveBrady" <steve.brady@(remove this)rogers.com> wrote in message
news:kZSdnQZdfYDJHHncRVn-gg@rogers.com...
> I've been in 4-lo in very icy conditions and found that I had to give it
gas
> to be sure the wheels turned enough to allow me some direction control.
> Sometimes engine braking can do the same as locking up the tires
altogether!
>
>
> "mabar" <xyzz4567@HotPop.com> wrote in message
> news:41e47c61_4@newsfeed.slurp.net...
> > Neutral or clutch depressed is a very bad idea. You have MUCH more
control
> > descending a hill while in gear, in 4-Lo. That way the front and rear
> > axels
> > are locked together, so when you feather the brakes, both axels will get
> > equal braking power. In 4-Lo, the engine will do most of the braking for
> > you.
> >
> > The front brakes are much more powerful, so feathering the brakes while
in
> > the transmission is in neutral and the transfer case is in 4-Hi or
> > neutral,
> > will apply almost all of the braking power to the fronts and almost none
> > to
> > the rears.
> >
> > If you have drums in the rear as most TJ's do, the rear brakes offer
very
> > little stopping power while descending a hill in reverse. Drum brakes
have
> > a
> > "self energizing" action that makes them work better while braking in a
> > forward motion. The brake shoes are "jammed" into the drums harder while
> > braking in a forward motion.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > "Rich Hampel" <RhmpL33@nospam.net> wrote in message
> > news:110120051251586525%RhmpL33@nospam.net...
> >> An alternative is to put it in neutral and feather the brakes. ....
> >> this requires that the brakes are well set-up and 'equal' front to
> >> rear.
> >> Works well on solid 'black' ice as well as hardpack snow.
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
is both the Go and the Stop, or sometimes the best one can hope for is Slow
Down.
"SteveBrady" <steve.brady@(remove this)rogers.com> wrote in message
news:kZSdnQZdfYDJHHncRVn-gg@rogers.com...
> I've been in 4-lo in very icy conditions and found that I had to give it
gas
> to be sure the wheels turned enough to allow me some direction control.
> Sometimes engine braking can do the same as locking up the tires
altogether!
>
>
> "mabar" <xyzz4567@HotPop.com> wrote in message
> news:41e47c61_4@newsfeed.slurp.net...
> > Neutral or clutch depressed is a very bad idea. You have MUCH more
control
> > descending a hill while in gear, in 4-Lo. That way the front and rear
> > axels
> > are locked together, so when you feather the brakes, both axels will get
> > equal braking power. In 4-Lo, the engine will do most of the braking for
> > you.
> >
> > The front brakes are much more powerful, so feathering the brakes while
in
> > the transmission is in neutral and the transfer case is in 4-Hi or
> > neutral,
> > will apply almost all of the braking power to the fronts and almost none
> > to
> > the rears.
> >
> > If you have drums in the rear as most TJ's do, the rear brakes offer
very
> > little stopping power while descending a hill in reverse. Drum brakes
have
> > a
> > "self energizing" action that makes them work better while braking in a
> > forward motion. The brake shoes are "jammed" into the drums harder while
> > braking in a forward motion.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > "Rich Hampel" <RhmpL33@nospam.net> wrote in message
> > news:110120051251586525%RhmpL33@nospam.net...
> >> An alternative is to put it in neutral and feather the brakes. ....
> >> this requires that the brakes are well set-up and 'equal' front to
> >> rear.
> >> Works well on solid 'black' ice as well as hardpack snow.
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Snow-crawl on steep incline--LONG
On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:09:06 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
> You 'desert rats' have no idea what it is like to have absolutely 'no'
> control at all no matter what you do. LOL!
>
> It is a really spooky feeling just sitting there and the damn vehicle is
> going to do what 'it' wants to, no matter how hard you curse at it or
> hit pedals!
>
> All you can do is lock it up to attempt to stop or aim it right to the
> 'correct' ditch and hope it isn't too deep a ditch or too long a walk
> out....
>
> We were in those conditions over New Years.....
>
> Mike
Amen! Being a good Texas redneck, I thought I had seen it all - sand,
mud, even sheet ice. That first year in Wisconsin I got to the top of
a south facing hil just as the sun went below the trees, dropping it
into shadow. Instant ice! Suddenly, my dead stop turned into a slow
slide. I didn't have enough traction, even with the slight crown, to
pull it into the ditch. Most helpless feeling in the world.
--
Will Honea
wrote:
> You 'desert rats' have no idea what it is like to have absolutely 'no'
> control at all no matter what you do. LOL!
>
> It is a really spooky feeling just sitting there and the damn vehicle is
> going to do what 'it' wants to, no matter how hard you curse at it or
> hit pedals!
>
> All you can do is lock it up to attempt to stop or aim it right to the
> 'correct' ditch and hope it isn't too deep a ditch or too long a walk
> out....
>
> We were in those conditions over New Years.....
>
> Mike
Amen! Being a good Texas redneck, I thought I had seen it all - sand,
mud, even sheet ice. That first year in Wisconsin I got to the top of
a south facing hil just as the sun went below the trees, dropping it
into shadow. Instant ice! Suddenly, my dead stop turned into a slow
slide. I didn't have enough traction, even with the slight crown, to
pull it into the ditch. Most helpless feeling in the world.
--
Will Honea
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Snow-crawl on steep incline--LONG
On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:09:06 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
> You 'desert rats' have no idea what it is like to have absolutely 'no'
> control at all no matter what you do. LOL!
>
> It is a really spooky feeling just sitting there and the damn vehicle is
> going to do what 'it' wants to, no matter how hard you curse at it or
> hit pedals!
>
> All you can do is lock it up to attempt to stop or aim it right to the
> 'correct' ditch and hope it isn't too deep a ditch or too long a walk
> out....
>
> We were in those conditions over New Years.....
>
> Mike
Amen! Being a good Texas redneck, I thought I had seen it all - sand,
mud, even sheet ice. That first year in Wisconsin I got to the top of
a south facing hil just as the sun went below the trees, dropping it
into shadow. Instant ice! Suddenly, my dead stop turned into a slow
slide. I didn't have enough traction, even with the slight crown, to
pull it into the ditch. Most helpless feeling in the world.
--
Will Honea
wrote:
> You 'desert rats' have no idea what it is like to have absolutely 'no'
> control at all no matter what you do. LOL!
>
> It is a really spooky feeling just sitting there and the damn vehicle is
> going to do what 'it' wants to, no matter how hard you curse at it or
> hit pedals!
>
> All you can do is lock it up to attempt to stop or aim it right to the
> 'correct' ditch and hope it isn't too deep a ditch or too long a walk
> out....
>
> We were in those conditions over New Years.....
>
> Mike
Amen! Being a good Texas redneck, I thought I had seen it all - sand,
mud, even sheet ice. That first year in Wisconsin I got to the top of
a south facing hil just as the sun went below the trees, dropping it
into shadow. Instant ice! Suddenly, my dead stop turned into a slow
slide. I didn't have enough traction, even with the slight crown, to
pull it into the ditch. Most helpless feeling in the world.
--
Will Honea
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Snow-crawl on steep incline--LONG
On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:09:06 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
> You 'desert rats' have no idea what it is like to have absolutely 'no'
> control at all no matter what you do. LOL!
>
> It is a really spooky feeling just sitting there and the damn vehicle is
> going to do what 'it' wants to, no matter how hard you curse at it or
> hit pedals!
>
> All you can do is lock it up to attempt to stop or aim it right to the
> 'correct' ditch and hope it isn't too deep a ditch or too long a walk
> out....
>
> We were in those conditions over New Years.....
>
> Mike
Amen! Being a good Texas redneck, I thought I had seen it all - sand,
mud, even sheet ice. That first year in Wisconsin I got to the top of
a south facing hil just as the sun went below the trees, dropping it
into shadow. Instant ice! Suddenly, my dead stop turned into a slow
slide. I didn't have enough traction, even with the slight crown, to
pull it into the ditch. Most helpless feeling in the world.
--
Will Honea
wrote:
> You 'desert rats' have no idea what it is like to have absolutely 'no'
> control at all no matter what you do. LOL!
>
> It is a really spooky feeling just sitting there and the damn vehicle is
> going to do what 'it' wants to, no matter how hard you curse at it or
> hit pedals!
>
> All you can do is lock it up to attempt to stop or aim it right to the
> 'correct' ditch and hope it isn't too deep a ditch or too long a walk
> out....
>
> We were in those conditions over New Years.....
>
> Mike
Amen! Being a good Texas redneck, I thought I had seen it all - sand,
mud, even sheet ice. That first year in Wisconsin I got to the top of
a south facing hil just as the sun went below the trees, dropping it
into shadow. Instant ice! Suddenly, my dead stop turned into a slow
slide. I didn't have enough traction, even with the slight crown, to
pull it into the ditch. Most helpless feeling in the world.
--
Will Honea
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Snow-crawl on steep incline--LONG
>You 'desert rats' have no idea what it is like to have absolutely 'no'
>control at all no matter what you do. LOL!
Up at elk camp this last season, there was one trail into the wilderness area
that, upon scouting, we realized that NO ONE was hunting. Partly it was
because the trail itself was brutal with all the blowdown and deep snow, but
partly it was because the only road to the trailhead was just plain terrifying.
So we, of course, hunted it hard <g>. Whoever "made" that road should be
forced to drive my TJ across it. It was pure ice and tilted slightly outwards
into the abyss, instead of tilting into the hillside. About a 2-foot
"shoulder" that was just the snow that wasn't compacted by tires. Jay-sus, it
was scary. The Jeep would be inching it's way sideways the whole time as I
crawled across in 4-low WITH CHAINS ON the front tires.
I agree with Mike... it can seem really easy to drive on ice when you are not
doing it. Sometimes, when you ARE doing it, you are just plain screwed; the
rig is on the verge of getting away from you and that's just how it is!
-jeff
>control at all no matter what you do. LOL!
Up at elk camp this last season, there was one trail into the wilderness area
that, upon scouting, we realized that NO ONE was hunting. Partly it was
because the trail itself was brutal with all the blowdown and deep snow, but
partly it was because the only road to the trailhead was just plain terrifying.
So we, of course, hunted it hard <g>. Whoever "made" that road should be
forced to drive my TJ across it. It was pure ice and tilted slightly outwards
into the abyss, instead of tilting into the hillside. About a 2-foot
"shoulder" that was just the snow that wasn't compacted by tires. Jay-sus, it
was scary. The Jeep would be inching it's way sideways the whole time as I
crawled across in 4-low WITH CHAINS ON the front tires.
I agree with Mike... it can seem really easy to drive on ice when you are not
doing it. Sometimes, when you ARE doing it, you are just plain screwed; the
rig is on the verge of getting away from you and that's just how it is!
-jeff
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Snow-crawl on steep incline--LONG
>You 'desert rats' have no idea what it is like to have absolutely 'no'
>control at all no matter what you do. LOL!
Up at elk camp this last season, there was one trail into the wilderness area
that, upon scouting, we realized that NO ONE was hunting. Partly it was
because the trail itself was brutal with all the blowdown and deep snow, but
partly it was because the only road to the trailhead was just plain terrifying.
So we, of course, hunted it hard <g>. Whoever "made" that road should be
forced to drive my TJ across it. It was pure ice and tilted slightly outwards
into the abyss, instead of tilting into the hillside. About a 2-foot
"shoulder" that was just the snow that wasn't compacted by tires. Jay-sus, it
was scary. The Jeep would be inching it's way sideways the whole time as I
crawled across in 4-low WITH CHAINS ON the front tires.
I agree with Mike... it can seem really easy to drive on ice when you are not
doing it. Sometimes, when you ARE doing it, you are just plain screwed; the
rig is on the verge of getting away from you and that's just how it is!
-jeff
>control at all no matter what you do. LOL!
Up at elk camp this last season, there was one trail into the wilderness area
that, upon scouting, we realized that NO ONE was hunting. Partly it was
because the trail itself was brutal with all the blowdown and deep snow, but
partly it was because the only road to the trailhead was just plain terrifying.
So we, of course, hunted it hard <g>. Whoever "made" that road should be
forced to drive my TJ across it. It was pure ice and tilted slightly outwards
into the abyss, instead of tilting into the hillside. About a 2-foot
"shoulder" that was just the snow that wasn't compacted by tires. Jay-sus, it
was scary. The Jeep would be inching it's way sideways the whole time as I
crawled across in 4-low WITH CHAINS ON the front tires.
I agree with Mike... it can seem really easy to drive on ice when you are not
doing it. Sometimes, when you ARE doing it, you are just plain screwed; the
rig is on the verge of getting away from you and that's just how it is!
-jeff
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Snow-crawl on steep incline--LONG
>You 'desert rats' have no idea what it is like to have absolutely 'no'
>control at all no matter what you do. LOL!
Up at elk camp this last season, there was one trail into the wilderness area
that, upon scouting, we realized that NO ONE was hunting. Partly it was
because the trail itself was brutal with all the blowdown and deep snow, but
partly it was because the only road to the trailhead was just plain terrifying.
So we, of course, hunted it hard <g>. Whoever "made" that road should be
forced to drive my TJ across it. It was pure ice and tilted slightly outwards
into the abyss, instead of tilting into the hillside. About a 2-foot
"shoulder" that was just the snow that wasn't compacted by tires. Jay-sus, it
was scary. The Jeep would be inching it's way sideways the whole time as I
crawled across in 4-low WITH CHAINS ON the front tires.
I agree with Mike... it can seem really easy to drive on ice when you are not
doing it. Sometimes, when you ARE doing it, you are just plain screwed; the
rig is on the verge of getting away from you and that's just how it is!
-jeff
>control at all no matter what you do. LOL!
Up at elk camp this last season, there was one trail into the wilderness area
that, upon scouting, we realized that NO ONE was hunting. Partly it was
because the trail itself was brutal with all the blowdown and deep snow, but
partly it was because the only road to the trailhead was just plain terrifying.
So we, of course, hunted it hard <g>. Whoever "made" that road should be
forced to drive my TJ across it. It was pure ice and tilted slightly outwards
into the abyss, instead of tilting into the hillside. About a 2-foot
"shoulder" that was just the snow that wasn't compacted by tires. Jay-sus, it
was scary. The Jeep would be inching it's way sideways the whole time as I
crawled across in 4-low WITH CHAINS ON the front tires.
I agree with Mike... it can seem really easy to drive on ice when you are not
doing it. Sometimes, when you ARE doing it, you are just plain screwed; the
rig is on the verge of getting away from you and that's just how it is!
-jeff
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Snow-crawl on steep incline--LONG
Absolutely NOT.
Once you *start to slide/slip* on ice or snow with the vehicle in 4WD
the different speeds of the front and rear axels will prevent at least
two wheels from gaining traction/adhesion. For example a 411 rear
differential will be matched with a 410 front differential .... one is
either pulling or dragging the other, front and rear ARE running at
'different speeds'. The difference in wheel rpm is small, but is still
different.; Its probably the reason that a 4WD once it starts to
slide/slip (on ice or hardpack) is much harder to recover than a 2WD.
No problem when there is traction and idling down in 4WD; but, when
there isnt sufficient traction, feathering the brakes in neutral will
usually allow faster recovery ... but like I stated the brakes had
better be applying the same torque to all wheels.
;-)
In article <10u8at9scehn724@corp.supernews.com>, Jeff Strickland
<crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Rich Hampel" <RhmpL33@nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:110120051251586525%RhmpL33@nospam.net...
> > An alternative is to put it in neutral and feather the brakes. ....
> > this requires that the brakes are well set-up and 'equal' front to
> > rear.
> > Works well on solid 'black' ice as well as hardpack snow.
> >
> > If the tires are dry you can spray on a rosin based belt dressing onto
> > the tread for additional 'traction' on hardpack or ice. Better is to
> > use cable chains on the rear and 'feather' the hand brake to keep the
> > rear end where it belongs. For super slippery conditions, increased
> > tire pressure than normal seems best.
> >
> > Too bad they dont allow studded tires anymore. They do but you can
> > only run them (in PA) when its icy or snow-covered ..... not worth the
> > bother.
> >
> > Am a ski-patroller.
> >
> >
>
>
> Selecting the lowest possible gear and idling is the best possible condition
> for directional stability and control, especially going backwards.
> Feathering the brakes in this condition is advised, UNLESS this results in
> locking the brakes and stopping the tire rotation. Bear in mind, I am
> speaking of the situation where the vehicle has been stopped, and proceeding
> down a hill is the desired action. Driving along at 40 and having an
> emergency develop in front of you is entirely another matter, but in that
> condition it is a very poor plan to depress the clutch pedal.
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > In article <10u82ih2oishk57@corp.supernews.com>, Jeff Strickland
> > <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "Matt Macchiarolo" <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote in message
> >> news:9-KdnWdDfOIgQn_cRVn-tw@comcast.com...
> >> > >
> >> >> This was your first mistake. Thankfully, it wasn't your last.
> >> >>
> >> >> WHAT YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE
> >> >> Assuming you were insistant on climbing the hill ...
> >> >
> >> > Ever driven up a hill covered with wet, packed snow, Jeff? I was riding
> >> > a
> >> > trail recently on such conditions with about 7 jeeps ahead of me. Once
> >> > I
> >> > got
> >> > to the hill, the snow had packed considerably and was fairly slick, but
> >> > not
> >> > terribly steep, I had enough traction to inch up the hill. But when I
> >> > had
> >> > to
> >> > stop just shy of the top, I could feel myself slowly inching down, even
> >> > with
> >> > my foot on the brake. (And no, Bill or Mike, the ABS was not
> >> > activating.)
> >> > It
> >> > was sliding just about half a foot per second, so I had enough time to
> >> > radio
> >> > to the fellow behind me to get out of the way. I couldn't get enough
> >> > traction to get back up at that point, so my only choice was to slide
> >> > all
> >> > the way back down and have another go. Spinning the wheels just makes a
> >> > situation like that worse...the tires melt a layer of snow and so now
> >> > you
> >> > have a water-slicked layer of snow that won't give any traction at all.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> That is all well and good, but my point is that depressing the clutch
> >> pedal
> >> can't possibly be an improvement in your situation. When something like
> >> this
> >> happens, the best thing is to keep the tires turning in the direction you
> >> want to go. I understand that this is TOTALLY counter intuitive and very
> >> difficult to accomplish, but a tire that is turning is a tire that can
> >> help
> >> with directional control, a tire that is not turning is a tire that is
> >> subject to the slope and the imposed direction of travel. This holds true
> >> going forward or backward. I know the instinct is to smash the brake
> >> pedal
> >> into the carpet, but I submit that resisting the impulse is often times
> >> the
> >> better course of action.
> >>
> >> But, no, I have no experience in snow, but I am well versed in steep
> >> hills
> >> covered with sand and dirt.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > i was told by a friend that i would have gotten better traction if i
> >> >> > had aired-down my tires, to 5-10 pounds,
> >> >> > is this true on packed slick snow on a very steep incline??
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Of course it's true. You will always get better traction with low air
> >> >> pressure.
> >> >>
> >> > Assuming there is any traction to be had, and on a snow-packed slick
> >> > incline
> >> > ther is almost zero. if the snow isn't too deep, taller and narrow
> >> > tires
> >> > will work better, especially on the street, but for really deep stuff,
> >> > if
> >> > it's firm enough you *can* float on top, or at least not sink all the
> >> > way
> >> > to
> >> > your frame. However, spin your tires once and you literally get that
> >> > sinking
> >> > feeling...the jeep just drops and there you are, with your jeep doing
> >> > an
> >> > impersonation of an igloo.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
>
>
Once you *start to slide/slip* on ice or snow with the vehicle in 4WD
the different speeds of the front and rear axels will prevent at least
two wheels from gaining traction/adhesion. For example a 411 rear
differential will be matched with a 410 front differential .... one is
either pulling or dragging the other, front and rear ARE running at
'different speeds'. The difference in wheel rpm is small, but is still
different.; Its probably the reason that a 4WD once it starts to
slide/slip (on ice or hardpack) is much harder to recover than a 2WD.
No problem when there is traction and idling down in 4WD; but, when
there isnt sufficient traction, feathering the brakes in neutral will
usually allow faster recovery ... but like I stated the brakes had
better be applying the same torque to all wheels.
;-)
In article <10u8at9scehn724@corp.supernews.com>, Jeff Strickland
<crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Rich Hampel" <RhmpL33@nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:110120051251586525%RhmpL33@nospam.net...
> > An alternative is to put it in neutral and feather the brakes. ....
> > this requires that the brakes are well set-up and 'equal' front to
> > rear.
> > Works well on solid 'black' ice as well as hardpack snow.
> >
> > If the tires are dry you can spray on a rosin based belt dressing onto
> > the tread for additional 'traction' on hardpack or ice. Better is to
> > use cable chains on the rear and 'feather' the hand brake to keep the
> > rear end where it belongs. For super slippery conditions, increased
> > tire pressure than normal seems best.
> >
> > Too bad they dont allow studded tires anymore. They do but you can
> > only run them (in PA) when its icy or snow-covered ..... not worth the
> > bother.
> >
> > Am a ski-patroller.
> >
> >
>
>
> Selecting the lowest possible gear and idling is the best possible condition
> for directional stability and control, especially going backwards.
> Feathering the brakes in this condition is advised, UNLESS this results in
> locking the brakes and stopping the tire rotation. Bear in mind, I am
> speaking of the situation where the vehicle has been stopped, and proceeding
> down a hill is the desired action. Driving along at 40 and having an
> emergency develop in front of you is entirely another matter, but in that
> condition it is a very poor plan to depress the clutch pedal.
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > In article <10u82ih2oishk57@corp.supernews.com>, Jeff Strickland
> > <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "Matt Macchiarolo" <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote in message
> >> news:9-KdnWdDfOIgQn_cRVn-tw@comcast.com...
> >> > >
> >> >> This was your first mistake. Thankfully, it wasn't your last.
> >> >>
> >> >> WHAT YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE
> >> >> Assuming you were insistant on climbing the hill ...
> >> >
> >> > Ever driven up a hill covered with wet, packed snow, Jeff? I was riding
> >> > a
> >> > trail recently on such conditions with about 7 jeeps ahead of me. Once
> >> > I
> >> > got
> >> > to the hill, the snow had packed considerably and was fairly slick, but
> >> > not
> >> > terribly steep, I had enough traction to inch up the hill. But when I
> >> > had
> >> > to
> >> > stop just shy of the top, I could feel myself slowly inching down, even
> >> > with
> >> > my foot on the brake. (And no, Bill or Mike, the ABS was not
> >> > activating.)
> >> > It
> >> > was sliding just about half a foot per second, so I had enough time to
> >> > radio
> >> > to the fellow behind me to get out of the way. I couldn't get enough
> >> > traction to get back up at that point, so my only choice was to slide
> >> > all
> >> > the way back down and have another go. Spinning the wheels just makes a
> >> > situation like that worse...the tires melt a layer of snow and so now
> >> > you
> >> > have a water-slicked layer of snow that won't give any traction at all.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> That is all well and good, but my point is that depressing the clutch
> >> pedal
> >> can't possibly be an improvement in your situation. When something like
> >> this
> >> happens, the best thing is to keep the tires turning in the direction you
> >> want to go. I understand that this is TOTALLY counter intuitive and very
> >> difficult to accomplish, but a tire that is turning is a tire that can
> >> help
> >> with directional control, a tire that is not turning is a tire that is
> >> subject to the slope and the imposed direction of travel. This holds true
> >> going forward or backward. I know the instinct is to smash the brake
> >> pedal
> >> into the carpet, but I submit that resisting the impulse is often times
> >> the
> >> better course of action.
> >>
> >> But, no, I have no experience in snow, but I am well versed in steep
> >> hills
> >> covered with sand and dirt.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > i was told by a friend that i would have gotten better traction if i
> >> >> > had aired-down my tires, to 5-10 pounds,
> >> >> > is this true on packed slick snow on a very steep incline??
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Of course it's true. You will always get better traction with low air
> >> >> pressure.
> >> >>
> >> > Assuming there is any traction to be had, and on a snow-packed slick
> >> > incline
> >> > ther is almost zero. if the snow isn't too deep, taller and narrow
> >> > tires
> >> > will work better, especially on the street, but for really deep stuff,
> >> > if
> >> > it's firm enough you *can* float on top, or at least not sink all the
> >> > way
> >> > to
> >> > your frame. However, spin your tires once and you literally get that
> >> > sinking
> >> > feeling...the jeep just drops and there you are, with your jeep doing
> >> > an
> >> > impersonation of an igloo.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
>
>
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Snow-crawl on steep incline--LONG
Absolutely NOT.
Once you *start to slide/slip* on ice or snow with the vehicle in 4WD
the different speeds of the front and rear axels will prevent at least
two wheels from gaining traction/adhesion. For example a 411 rear
differential will be matched with a 410 front differential .... one is
either pulling or dragging the other, front and rear ARE running at
'different speeds'. The difference in wheel rpm is small, but is still
different.; Its probably the reason that a 4WD once it starts to
slide/slip (on ice or hardpack) is much harder to recover than a 2WD.
No problem when there is traction and idling down in 4WD; but, when
there isnt sufficient traction, feathering the brakes in neutral will
usually allow faster recovery ... but like I stated the brakes had
better be applying the same torque to all wheels.
;-)
In article <10u8at9scehn724@corp.supernews.com>, Jeff Strickland
<crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Rich Hampel" <RhmpL33@nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:110120051251586525%RhmpL33@nospam.net...
> > An alternative is to put it in neutral and feather the brakes. ....
> > this requires that the brakes are well set-up and 'equal' front to
> > rear.
> > Works well on solid 'black' ice as well as hardpack snow.
> >
> > If the tires are dry you can spray on a rosin based belt dressing onto
> > the tread for additional 'traction' on hardpack or ice. Better is to
> > use cable chains on the rear and 'feather' the hand brake to keep the
> > rear end where it belongs. For super slippery conditions, increased
> > tire pressure than normal seems best.
> >
> > Too bad they dont allow studded tires anymore. They do but you can
> > only run them (in PA) when its icy or snow-covered ..... not worth the
> > bother.
> >
> > Am a ski-patroller.
> >
> >
>
>
> Selecting the lowest possible gear and idling is the best possible condition
> for directional stability and control, especially going backwards.
> Feathering the brakes in this condition is advised, UNLESS this results in
> locking the brakes and stopping the tire rotation. Bear in mind, I am
> speaking of the situation where the vehicle has been stopped, and proceeding
> down a hill is the desired action. Driving along at 40 and having an
> emergency develop in front of you is entirely another matter, but in that
> condition it is a very poor plan to depress the clutch pedal.
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > In article <10u82ih2oishk57@corp.supernews.com>, Jeff Strickland
> > <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "Matt Macchiarolo" <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote in message
> >> news:9-KdnWdDfOIgQn_cRVn-tw@comcast.com...
> >> > >
> >> >> This was your first mistake. Thankfully, it wasn't your last.
> >> >>
> >> >> WHAT YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE
> >> >> Assuming you were insistant on climbing the hill ...
> >> >
> >> > Ever driven up a hill covered with wet, packed snow, Jeff? I was riding
> >> > a
> >> > trail recently on such conditions with about 7 jeeps ahead of me. Once
> >> > I
> >> > got
> >> > to the hill, the snow had packed considerably and was fairly slick, but
> >> > not
> >> > terribly steep, I had enough traction to inch up the hill. But when I
> >> > had
> >> > to
> >> > stop just shy of the top, I could feel myself slowly inching down, even
> >> > with
> >> > my foot on the brake. (And no, Bill or Mike, the ABS was not
> >> > activating.)
> >> > It
> >> > was sliding just about half a foot per second, so I had enough time to
> >> > radio
> >> > to the fellow behind me to get out of the way. I couldn't get enough
> >> > traction to get back up at that point, so my only choice was to slide
> >> > all
> >> > the way back down and have another go. Spinning the wheels just makes a
> >> > situation like that worse...the tires melt a layer of snow and so now
> >> > you
> >> > have a water-slicked layer of snow that won't give any traction at all.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> That is all well and good, but my point is that depressing the clutch
> >> pedal
> >> can't possibly be an improvement in your situation. When something like
> >> this
> >> happens, the best thing is to keep the tires turning in the direction you
> >> want to go. I understand that this is TOTALLY counter intuitive and very
> >> difficult to accomplish, but a tire that is turning is a tire that can
> >> help
> >> with directional control, a tire that is not turning is a tire that is
> >> subject to the slope and the imposed direction of travel. This holds true
> >> going forward or backward. I know the instinct is to smash the brake
> >> pedal
> >> into the carpet, but I submit that resisting the impulse is often times
> >> the
> >> better course of action.
> >>
> >> But, no, I have no experience in snow, but I am well versed in steep
> >> hills
> >> covered with sand and dirt.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > i was told by a friend that i would have gotten better traction if i
> >> >> > had aired-down my tires, to 5-10 pounds,
> >> >> > is this true on packed slick snow on a very steep incline??
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Of course it's true. You will always get better traction with low air
> >> >> pressure.
> >> >>
> >> > Assuming there is any traction to be had, and on a snow-packed slick
> >> > incline
> >> > ther is almost zero. if the snow isn't too deep, taller and narrow
> >> > tires
> >> > will work better, especially on the street, but for really deep stuff,
> >> > if
> >> > it's firm enough you *can* float on top, or at least not sink all the
> >> > way
> >> > to
> >> > your frame. However, spin your tires once and you literally get that
> >> > sinking
> >> > feeling...the jeep just drops and there you are, with your jeep doing
> >> > an
> >> > impersonation of an igloo.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
>
>
Once you *start to slide/slip* on ice or snow with the vehicle in 4WD
the different speeds of the front and rear axels will prevent at least
two wheels from gaining traction/adhesion. For example a 411 rear
differential will be matched with a 410 front differential .... one is
either pulling or dragging the other, front and rear ARE running at
'different speeds'. The difference in wheel rpm is small, but is still
different.; Its probably the reason that a 4WD once it starts to
slide/slip (on ice or hardpack) is much harder to recover than a 2WD.
No problem when there is traction and idling down in 4WD; but, when
there isnt sufficient traction, feathering the brakes in neutral will
usually allow faster recovery ... but like I stated the brakes had
better be applying the same torque to all wheels.
;-)
In article <10u8at9scehn724@corp.supernews.com>, Jeff Strickland
<crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Rich Hampel" <RhmpL33@nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:110120051251586525%RhmpL33@nospam.net...
> > An alternative is to put it in neutral and feather the brakes. ....
> > this requires that the brakes are well set-up and 'equal' front to
> > rear.
> > Works well on solid 'black' ice as well as hardpack snow.
> >
> > If the tires are dry you can spray on a rosin based belt dressing onto
> > the tread for additional 'traction' on hardpack or ice. Better is to
> > use cable chains on the rear and 'feather' the hand brake to keep the
> > rear end where it belongs. For super slippery conditions, increased
> > tire pressure than normal seems best.
> >
> > Too bad they dont allow studded tires anymore. They do but you can
> > only run them (in PA) when its icy or snow-covered ..... not worth the
> > bother.
> >
> > Am a ski-patroller.
> >
> >
>
>
> Selecting the lowest possible gear and idling is the best possible condition
> for directional stability and control, especially going backwards.
> Feathering the brakes in this condition is advised, UNLESS this results in
> locking the brakes and stopping the tire rotation. Bear in mind, I am
> speaking of the situation where the vehicle has been stopped, and proceeding
> down a hill is the desired action. Driving along at 40 and having an
> emergency develop in front of you is entirely another matter, but in that
> condition it is a very poor plan to depress the clutch pedal.
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > In article <10u82ih2oishk57@corp.supernews.com>, Jeff Strickland
> > <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "Matt Macchiarolo" <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote in message
> >> news:9-KdnWdDfOIgQn_cRVn-tw@comcast.com...
> >> > >
> >> >> This was your first mistake. Thankfully, it wasn't your last.
> >> >>
> >> >> WHAT YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE
> >> >> Assuming you were insistant on climbing the hill ...
> >> >
> >> > Ever driven up a hill covered with wet, packed snow, Jeff? I was riding
> >> > a
> >> > trail recently on such conditions with about 7 jeeps ahead of me. Once
> >> > I
> >> > got
> >> > to the hill, the snow had packed considerably and was fairly slick, but
> >> > not
> >> > terribly steep, I had enough traction to inch up the hill. But when I
> >> > had
> >> > to
> >> > stop just shy of the top, I could feel myself slowly inching down, even
> >> > with
> >> > my foot on the brake. (And no, Bill or Mike, the ABS was not
> >> > activating.)
> >> > It
> >> > was sliding just about half a foot per second, so I had enough time to
> >> > radio
> >> > to the fellow behind me to get out of the way. I couldn't get enough
> >> > traction to get back up at that point, so my only choice was to slide
> >> > all
> >> > the way back down and have another go. Spinning the wheels just makes a
> >> > situation like that worse...the tires melt a layer of snow and so now
> >> > you
> >> > have a water-slicked layer of snow that won't give any traction at all.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> That is all well and good, but my point is that depressing the clutch
> >> pedal
> >> can't possibly be an improvement in your situation. When something like
> >> this
> >> happens, the best thing is to keep the tires turning in the direction you
> >> want to go. I understand that this is TOTALLY counter intuitive and very
> >> difficult to accomplish, but a tire that is turning is a tire that can
> >> help
> >> with directional control, a tire that is not turning is a tire that is
> >> subject to the slope and the imposed direction of travel. This holds true
> >> going forward or backward. I know the instinct is to smash the brake
> >> pedal
> >> into the carpet, but I submit that resisting the impulse is often times
> >> the
> >> better course of action.
> >>
> >> But, no, I have no experience in snow, but I am well versed in steep
> >> hills
> >> covered with sand and dirt.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > i was told by a friend that i would have gotten better traction if i
> >> >> > had aired-down my tires, to 5-10 pounds,
> >> >> > is this true on packed slick snow on a very steep incline??
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Of course it's true. You will always get better traction with low air
> >> >> pressure.
> >> >>
> >> > Assuming there is any traction to be had, and on a snow-packed slick
> >> > incline
> >> > ther is almost zero. if the snow isn't too deep, taller and narrow
> >> > tires
> >> > will work better, especially on the street, but for really deep stuff,
> >> > if
> >> > it's firm enough you *can* float on top, or at least not sink all the
> >> > way
> >> > to
> >> > your frame. However, spin your tires once and you literally get that
> >> > sinking
> >> > feeling...the jeep just drops and there you are, with your jeep doing
> >> > an
> >> > impersonation of an igloo.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
>
>
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Snow-crawl on steep incline--LONG
Absolutely NOT.
Once you *start to slide/slip* on ice or snow with the vehicle in 4WD
the different speeds of the front and rear axels will prevent at least
two wheels from gaining traction/adhesion. For example a 411 rear
differential will be matched with a 410 front differential .... one is
either pulling or dragging the other, front and rear ARE running at
'different speeds'. The difference in wheel rpm is small, but is still
different.; Its probably the reason that a 4WD once it starts to
slide/slip (on ice or hardpack) is much harder to recover than a 2WD.
No problem when there is traction and idling down in 4WD; but, when
there isnt sufficient traction, feathering the brakes in neutral will
usually allow faster recovery ... but like I stated the brakes had
better be applying the same torque to all wheels.
;-)
In article <10u8at9scehn724@corp.supernews.com>, Jeff Strickland
<crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Rich Hampel" <RhmpL33@nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:110120051251586525%RhmpL33@nospam.net...
> > An alternative is to put it in neutral and feather the brakes. ....
> > this requires that the brakes are well set-up and 'equal' front to
> > rear.
> > Works well on solid 'black' ice as well as hardpack snow.
> >
> > If the tires are dry you can spray on a rosin based belt dressing onto
> > the tread for additional 'traction' on hardpack or ice. Better is to
> > use cable chains on the rear and 'feather' the hand brake to keep the
> > rear end where it belongs. For super slippery conditions, increased
> > tire pressure than normal seems best.
> >
> > Too bad they dont allow studded tires anymore. They do but you can
> > only run them (in PA) when its icy or snow-covered ..... not worth the
> > bother.
> >
> > Am a ski-patroller.
> >
> >
>
>
> Selecting the lowest possible gear and idling is the best possible condition
> for directional stability and control, especially going backwards.
> Feathering the brakes in this condition is advised, UNLESS this results in
> locking the brakes and stopping the tire rotation. Bear in mind, I am
> speaking of the situation where the vehicle has been stopped, and proceeding
> down a hill is the desired action. Driving along at 40 and having an
> emergency develop in front of you is entirely another matter, but in that
> condition it is a very poor plan to depress the clutch pedal.
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > In article <10u82ih2oishk57@corp.supernews.com>, Jeff Strickland
> > <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "Matt Macchiarolo" <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote in message
> >> news:9-KdnWdDfOIgQn_cRVn-tw@comcast.com...
> >> > >
> >> >> This was your first mistake. Thankfully, it wasn't your last.
> >> >>
> >> >> WHAT YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE
> >> >> Assuming you were insistant on climbing the hill ...
> >> >
> >> > Ever driven up a hill covered with wet, packed snow, Jeff? I was riding
> >> > a
> >> > trail recently on such conditions with about 7 jeeps ahead of me. Once
> >> > I
> >> > got
> >> > to the hill, the snow had packed considerably and was fairly slick, but
> >> > not
> >> > terribly steep, I had enough traction to inch up the hill. But when I
> >> > had
> >> > to
> >> > stop just shy of the top, I could feel myself slowly inching down, even
> >> > with
> >> > my foot on the brake. (And no, Bill or Mike, the ABS was not
> >> > activating.)
> >> > It
> >> > was sliding just about half a foot per second, so I had enough time to
> >> > radio
> >> > to the fellow behind me to get out of the way. I couldn't get enough
> >> > traction to get back up at that point, so my only choice was to slide
> >> > all
> >> > the way back down and have another go. Spinning the wheels just makes a
> >> > situation like that worse...the tires melt a layer of snow and so now
> >> > you
> >> > have a water-slicked layer of snow that won't give any traction at all.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> That is all well and good, but my point is that depressing the clutch
> >> pedal
> >> can't possibly be an improvement in your situation. When something like
> >> this
> >> happens, the best thing is to keep the tires turning in the direction you
> >> want to go. I understand that this is TOTALLY counter intuitive and very
> >> difficult to accomplish, but a tire that is turning is a tire that can
> >> help
> >> with directional control, a tire that is not turning is a tire that is
> >> subject to the slope and the imposed direction of travel. This holds true
> >> going forward or backward. I know the instinct is to smash the brake
> >> pedal
> >> into the carpet, but I submit that resisting the impulse is often times
> >> the
> >> better course of action.
> >>
> >> But, no, I have no experience in snow, but I am well versed in steep
> >> hills
> >> covered with sand and dirt.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > i was told by a friend that i would have gotten better traction if i
> >> >> > had aired-down my tires, to 5-10 pounds,
> >> >> > is this true on packed slick snow on a very steep incline??
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Of course it's true. You will always get better traction with low air
> >> >> pressure.
> >> >>
> >> > Assuming there is any traction to be had, and on a snow-packed slick
> >> > incline
> >> > ther is almost zero. if the snow isn't too deep, taller and narrow
> >> > tires
> >> > will work better, especially on the street, but for really deep stuff,
> >> > if
> >> > it's firm enough you *can* float on top, or at least not sink all the
> >> > way
> >> > to
> >> > your frame. However, spin your tires once and you literally get that
> >> > sinking
> >> > feeling...the jeep just drops and there you are, with your jeep doing
> >> > an
> >> > impersonation of an igloo.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
>
>
Once you *start to slide/slip* on ice or snow with the vehicle in 4WD
the different speeds of the front and rear axels will prevent at least
two wheels from gaining traction/adhesion. For example a 411 rear
differential will be matched with a 410 front differential .... one is
either pulling or dragging the other, front and rear ARE running at
'different speeds'. The difference in wheel rpm is small, but is still
different.; Its probably the reason that a 4WD once it starts to
slide/slip (on ice or hardpack) is much harder to recover than a 2WD.
No problem when there is traction and idling down in 4WD; but, when
there isnt sufficient traction, feathering the brakes in neutral will
usually allow faster recovery ... but like I stated the brakes had
better be applying the same torque to all wheels.
;-)
In article <10u8at9scehn724@corp.supernews.com>, Jeff Strickland
<crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Rich Hampel" <RhmpL33@nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:110120051251586525%RhmpL33@nospam.net...
> > An alternative is to put it in neutral and feather the brakes. ....
> > this requires that the brakes are well set-up and 'equal' front to
> > rear.
> > Works well on solid 'black' ice as well as hardpack snow.
> >
> > If the tires are dry you can spray on a rosin based belt dressing onto
> > the tread for additional 'traction' on hardpack or ice. Better is to
> > use cable chains on the rear and 'feather' the hand brake to keep the
> > rear end where it belongs. For super slippery conditions, increased
> > tire pressure than normal seems best.
> >
> > Too bad they dont allow studded tires anymore. They do but you can
> > only run them (in PA) when its icy or snow-covered ..... not worth the
> > bother.
> >
> > Am a ski-patroller.
> >
> >
>
>
> Selecting the lowest possible gear and idling is the best possible condition
> for directional stability and control, especially going backwards.
> Feathering the brakes in this condition is advised, UNLESS this results in
> locking the brakes and stopping the tire rotation. Bear in mind, I am
> speaking of the situation where the vehicle has been stopped, and proceeding
> down a hill is the desired action. Driving along at 40 and having an
> emergency develop in front of you is entirely another matter, but in that
> condition it is a very poor plan to depress the clutch pedal.
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > In article <10u82ih2oishk57@corp.supernews.com>, Jeff Strickland
> > <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "Matt Macchiarolo" <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote in message
> >> news:9-KdnWdDfOIgQn_cRVn-tw@comcast.com...
> >> > >
> >> >> This was your first mistake. Thankfully, it wasn't your last.
> >> >>
> >> >> WHAT YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE
> >> >> Assuming you were insistant on climbing the hill ...
> >> >
> >> > Ever driven up a hill covered with wet, packed snow, Jeff? I was riding
> >> > a
> >> > trail recently on such conditions with about 7 jeeps ahead of me. Once
> >> > I
> >> > got
> >> > to the hill, the snow had packed considerably and was fairly slick, but
> >> > not
> >> > terribly steep, I had enough traction to inch up the hill. But when I
> >> > had
> >> > to
> >> > stop just shy of the top, I could feel myself slowly inching down, even
> >> > with
> >> > my foot on the brake. (And no, Bill or Mike, the ABS was not
> >> > activating.)
> >> > It
> >> > was sliding just about half a foot per second, so I had enough time to
> >> > radio
> >> > to the fellow behind me to get out of the way. I couldn't get enough
> >> > traction to get back up at that point, so my only choice was to slide
> >> > all
> >> > the way back down and have another go. Spinning the wheels just makes a
> >> > situation like that worse...the tires melt a layer of snow and so now
> >> > you
> >> > have a water-slicked layer of snow that won't give any traction at all.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> That is all well and good, but my point is that depressing the clutch
> >> pedal
> >> can't possibly be an improvement in your situation. When something like
> >> this
> >> happens, the best thing is to keep the tires turning in the direction you
> >> want to go. I understand that this is TOTALLY counter intuitive and very
> >> difficult to accomplish, but a tire that is turning is a tire that can
> >> help
> >> with directional control, a tire that is not turning is a tire that is
> >> subject to the slope and the imposed direction of travel. This holds true
> >> going forward or backward. I know the instinct is to smash the brake
> >> pedal
> >> into the carpet, but I submit that resisting the impulse is often times
> >> the
> >> better course of action.
> >>
> >> But, no, I have no experience in snow, but I am well versed in steep
> >> hills
> >> covered with sand and dirt.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > i was told by a friend that i would have gotten better traction if i
> >> >> > had aired-down my tires, to 5-10 pounds,
> >> >> > is this true on packed slick snow on a very steep incline??
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Of course it's true. You will always get better traction with low air
> >> >> pressure.
> >> >>
> >> > Assuming there is any traction to be had, and on a snow-packed slick
> >> > incline
> >> > ther is almost zero. if the snow isn't too deep, taller and narrow
> >> > tires
> >> > will work better, especially on the street, but for really deep stuff,
> >> > if
> >> > it's firm enough you *can* float on top, or at least not sink all the
> >> > way
> >> > to
> >> > your frame. However, spin your tires once and you literally get that
> >> > sinking
> >> > feeling...the jeep just drops and there you are, with your jeep doing
> >> > an
> >> > impersonation of an igloo.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
>
>