Gerald G. McGeorge

Isn't it amazing how some people can't deal with the slightest bit of
adversity?

But, hey, since I'm plonked I can call the guy an @$$#0!e and he won't
notice, huh??!!!

WONDERFUL!

"twaldron" <twaldron@sbcOBVIOUSglobal.net> wrote in message
news:QTx2b.3603$Pr1.2947@newssvr22.news.prodigy.co m...
> He's PLONKED but you're not. I figure deep down somewhere there might be
> a human side, but I've been wrong before. I only see your responses to
> McFly, but I thought you sounded like you two might be getting a little
> cozy for the NG. It was merely a suggestion. Do what you will.
>
> ...off to the frat house, then the mall for some cherries jubilee.
> (They're having a Rubicon convention there tonight. With balloons!)
>
> Earle Horton wrote:
>
> > "twaldron" <twaldron@sbcOBVIOUSglobal.net> wrote in message
> > news:_lx2b.3587$Pr1.133@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com ...
> >
> >>Hey Earle,
> >>
> >>You ARE right about some things tho. I purchased my Rubicon with A/C
> >>simply because I thought it would increase trade-in. Not because I LIVE
> >>IN TEXAS or anything. I only got the lockers because of the speed bumps
> >>in the mall parking lot. Damn, those things are gettig bigger every
> >>year. I'm glad they're starting to paint them yellow so I can hit my
> >>locker button and get both axles locked in before I actually start the
> >>long climb over the speed bump.
> >>
> >>Can you and McFly take this to a chat room?
> >>
> >
> >
> > Wassamatter, can't find the "PLONK" button? ;o)
> >
> > Earle
> >
> >
> >>Earle Horton wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>You're wasting your breath. Many of these guys are Telluride types who
> >
> > buy
> >
> >>>into the whole illusion thing and bought the Rubicon for that. They
> >>>*believe* that AC actually increases trade-in value. Either that, or
> >>>they're incredibly rich and paying double value for a locker/compressor
> >>>combo is merely convenient. Think of it as a parallel reality to what
> >
> > you
> >
> >>>and I are used to, and since you live in Durango I am not so sure about
> >>>you...
> >>>
> >>>By the way, ¡Hace mucho calor! in Grand Junction today and that long
> >
> > Labor
> >
> >>>Day weekend back in Silverton is sure going to come in handy.
> >>>
> >>>Earle
> >>>
> >>
> >>--
> >>________________________________________________ ___________
> >>tw
> >>03 TJ Rubicon
> >>01 XJ Sport
> >>
> >>There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
> >>-- Dave Barry
> >>
> >>http://www.7slotgrille.com/jeepers/t...ron/index.html
> >>(Please remove the OBVIOUS to reply by email)
> >>________________________________________________ ___________
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> __________________________________________________ _________
> tw
> 03 TJ Rubicon
> 01 XJ Sport
>
> There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
> -- Dave Barry
>
> http://www.7slotgrille.com/jeepers/t...ron/index.html
> (Please remove the OBVIOUS to reply by email)
> __________________________________________________ _________
>

TJim

TW, they're not necessarily mutually exclusive. The fox could have just as
logically walked away saying, "Those grapes probably suck, anyway!"

To my knowledge, there is no definitive and quantitative measure of
suckiness, so I have to ASSume that suckiness is a relative and subjective
measurement. That being the case, the "illusion of suckiness" becomes the
"reality of suckiness", as used in the expression: "Wow, that *really*
sucks!" Therefore, if you believe something sucks, it does.

My one remaining question is, why is it that something that "really sucks"
is no better or worse than something that "really blows"?

"twaldron" <twaldron@sbcOBVIOUSglobal.net> wrote in message
news:LGu2b.3546$UW7.2494@newssvr22.news.prodigy.co m...
> So, you're going with the 'illusion of suckiness' theory as opposed to
> the 'sour grapes' theory?
>
> TJim wrote:
>
> SNIP
> > 2. a fixed relative suckiness at a higher relative price has a higher
> > apparent suckiness, and the same fixed relative suckiness at a lower
> > relative price has a lower apparent suckiness.
>
>
> --
> __________________________________________________ _________
> tw
> 03 TJ Rubicon
> 01 XJ Sport
>
> There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
> -- Dave Barry
>
> http://www.7slotgrille.com/jeepers/t...ron/index.html
> (Please remove the OBVIOUS to reply by email)
> __________________________________________________ _________
>

TJim

TW, they're not necessarily mutually exclusive. The fox could have just as
logically walked away saying, "Those grapes probably suck, anyway!"

To my knowledge, there is no definitive and quantitative measure of
suckiness, so I have to ASSume that suckiness is a relative and subjective
measurement. That being the case, the "illusion of suckiness" becomes the
"reality of suckiness", as used in the expression: "Wow, that *really*
sucks!" Therefore, if you believe something sucks, it does.

My one remaining question is, why is it that something that "really sucks"
is no better or worse than something that "really blows"?

"twaldron" <twaldron@sbcOBVIOUSglobal.net> wrote in message
news:LGu2b.3546$UW7.2494@newssvr22.news.prodigy.co m...
> So, you're going with the 'illusion of suckiness' theory as opposed to
> the 'sour grapes' theory?
>
> TJim wrote:
>
> SNIP
> > 2. a fixed relative suckiness at a higher relative price has a higher
> > apparent suckiness, and the same fixed relative suckiness at a lower
> > relative price has a lower apparent suckiness.
>
>
> --
> __________________________________________________ _________
> tw
> 03 TJ Rubicon
> 01 XJ Sport
>
> There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
> -- Dave Barry
>
> http://www.7slotgrille.com/jeepers/t...ron/index.html
> (Please remove the OBVIOUS to reply by email)
> __________________________________________________ _________
>

TJim

You're right. Actually, I've never said that the Rubi sucks. To the
contrary, I think it's probably the most capable "out of the box" off road
vehicle available to the general public.

"Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vkku5vjd3iv458@corp.supernews.com...
> You aren't the one that has repeatedly said the Rubi sucks.
>
>
>
>
>
> "TJim" <jim@ranlet.nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:Ll6dnco8ZOAE69eiU-KYvA@comcast.com...
> > 1. I don't think the rubi sucks. I'd love to have one, myself, but I'd
> have
> > to sell both my jeeps.
> > 2. a fixed relative suckiness at a higher relative price has a higher
> > apparent suckiness, and the same fixed relative suckiness at a lower
> > relative price has a lower apparent suckiness.
> > 3. if a vacuum cleaner "sucks", that's a good thing, right?
> > 4. if your date... oh, never mind...
> >
> > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:vkkpn7ec2ift2b@corp.supernews.com...
> > > I fail to see how the price and the relative suckiness have anything
to
> do
> > > with one another.
> > >
> > > You have said twice how bad the Rubicon sucks, but your sole support
to
> > your
> > > assertion is the price they get for some silly options. I want to know
> why
> > > it sucks, not how poorly the accessory list is put together.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > > news:vkenruqvbsvi3e@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Ah, but one can come to the wrong assumptions in haste, can't one? I
> > > > presently own three Jeeps and an MB E430 Sport. Price is not the
> issue,
> > I
> > > > can write check for one this morning, thank you.
> > > >
> > > > My point here, my overly sensitive Jeeping friends, is that the
thing
> > was
> > > > priced unreasonably high given its content, then, due to its
> restricted
> > > > production volume, the dealers did their usual opportunistic
optioning
> > and
> > > > price gouging, luring many of those who bought them out of the
"don't
> > get
> > > > it dirty it's just a hip car for cruising" crowd.
> > > >
> > > > Those of us who've spent a bundle to build our Jeeps just chuckle.
> > Perhaps
> > > > as they get out on the used market more will get into the hands of
> true
> > > Jeep
> > > > enthusiasts, right now the owner base seems to be more attuned the
> > quality
> > > > of the CD players than the performance of the 4.1 xfer case or the
> > > lockers.
> > > >
> > > > There was absolutely no justification for the price premium Chrysler
> put
> > > on
> > > > the thing. The content's combined incremental build cost premium to
> > > Chrysler
> > > > can't be much more than $1000 over a D44 Sport. (They could have
> simply
> > > made
> > > > the axles, lockers and xfer case a check-off option.) Folks that
> ordered
> > > > them from larger metro-area dealerships complain about paying
> > over-sticker
> > > > premiums and having to take them with silly options they didn't
> order,
> > > want
> > > > or need (yes, power mirrors ARE an option on the Rubicon), or
finding
> > out
> > > > once they arrived that the dealer had peppered the things with glass
> > tint,
> > > > mud guards, stone shields, etc. Some dealers then told the buyer who
> > > ordered
> > > > them to "take it or leave it". Typical car dealer BS. Our local
dealer
> > was
> > > > merciful and sold them at sticker.
> > > >
> > > > Sorry if I offended any enthusiast Rubicon owners out there, was not
> my
> > > > intent and I should have been more specific. It's a great product,
> just
> > > > riles many of us who loathe the way manufacturers and dealers take
> > > advantage
> > > > of consumers.
> > > >
> > > > ...but, Earle DOES live in God's country and we're heading that way
> this
> > > AM!
> > > >
> > > > "Earle Horton" <enfermero_diabolico@registerednurses.com> wrote in
> > message
> > > > news:bi6msk$5inl2$1@ID-147790.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > > > > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vkdgi0pkuncte3@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > Frankly, there's getting to be a school of thought among veteran
> > > > > > Jeepers that the Rubicon simply SUCKS, mostly due to its owners.
> > > > > > There must have been 500 of the things at Moab last year and
> > > > > > eventually everyone avoided them like the plague. This months JP
> > > > > > mag lists them among the 10 Jeeps they wouldn't own.
> > > > > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > > A FAMISHED FOX saw some clusters of ripe black grapes hanging from
a
> > > > > trellised vine. She resorted to all her tricks to get at them, but
> > > wearied
> > > > > herself in vain, for she could not reach them. At last she turned
> > away,
> > > > > hiding her disappointment and saying: "The Grapes are sour, and
not
> > ripe
> > > > as
> > > > > I thought."
> > > > >
> > > > > --Aesop, pretty darn smart Ancient Greek
> > > > >
> > > > > Earle
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

TJim

You're right. Actually, I've never said that the Rubi sucks. To the
contrary, I think it's probably the most capable "out of the box" off road
vehicle available to the general public.

"Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vkku5vjd3iv458@corp.supernews.com...
> You aren't the one that has repeatedly said the Rubi sucks.
>
>
>
>
>
> "TJim" <jim@ranlet.nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:Ll6dnco8ZOAE69eiU-KYvA@comcast.com...
> > 1. I don't think the rubi sucks. I'd love to have one, myself, but I'd
> have
> > to sell both my jeeps.
> > 2. a fixed relative suckiness at a higher relative price has a higher
> > apparent suckiness, and the same fixed relative suckiness at a lower
> > relative price has a lower apparent suckiness.
> > 3. if a vacuum cleaner "sucks", that's a good thing, right?
> > 4. if your date... oh, never mind...
> >
> > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:vkkpn7ec2ift2b@corp.supernews.com...
> > > I fail to see how the price and the relative suckiness have anything
to
> do
> > > with one another.
> > >
> > > You have said twice how bad the Rubicon sucks, but your sole support
to
> > your
> > > assertion is the price they get for some silly options. I want to know
> why
> > > it sucks, not how poorly the accessory list is put together.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > > news:vkenruqvbsvi3e@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Ah, but one can come to the wrong assumptions in haste, can't one? I
> > > > presently own three Jeeps and an MB E430 Sport. Price is not the
> issue,
> > I
> > > > can write check for one this morning, thank you.
> > > >
> > > > My point here, my overly sensitive Jeeping friends, is that the
thing
> > was
> > > > priced unreasonably high given its content, then, due to its
> restricted
> > > > production volume, the dealers did their usual opportunistic
optioning
> > and
> > > > price gouging, luring many of those who bought them out of the
"don't
> > get
> > > > it dirty it's just a hip car for cruising" crowd.
> > > >
> > > > Those of us who've spent a bundle to build our Jeeps just chuckle.
> > Perhaps
> > > > as they get out on the used market more will get into the hands of
> true
> > > Jeep
> > > > enthusiasts, right now the owner base seems to be more attuned the
> > quality
> > > > of the CD players than the performance of the 4.1 xfer case or the
> > > lockers.
> > > >
> > > > There was absolutely no justification for the price premium Chrysler
> put
> > > on
> > > > the thing. The content's combined incremental build cost premium to
> > > Chrysler
> > > > can't be much more than $1000 over a D44 Sport. (They could have
> simply
> > > made
> > > > the axles, lockers and xfer case a check-off option.) Folks that
> ordered
> > > > them from larger metro-area dealerships complain about paying
> > over-sticker
> > > > premiums and having to take them with silly options they didn't
> order,
> > > want
> > > > or need (yes, power mirrors ARE an option on the Rubicon), or
finding
> > out
> > > > once they arrived that the dealer had peppered the things with glass
> > tint,
> > > > mud guards, stone shields, etc. Some dealers then told the buyer who
> > > ordered
> > > > them to "take it or leave it". Typical car dealer BS. Our local
dealer
> > was
> > > > merciful and sold them at sticker.
> > > >
> > > > Sorry if I offended any enthusiast Rubicon owners out there, was not
> my
> > > > intent and I should have been more specific. It's a great product,
> just
> > > > riles many of us who loathe the way manufacturers and dealers take
> > > advantage
> > > > of consumers.
> > > >
> > > > ...but, Earle DOES live in God's country and we're heading that way
> this
> > > AM!
> > > >
> > > > "Earle Horton" <enfermero_diabolico@registerednurses.com> wrote in
> > message
> > > > news:bi6msk$5inl2$1@ID-147790.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > > > > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vkdgi0pkuncte3@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > Frankly, there's getting to be a school of thought among veteran
> > > > > > Jeepers that the Rubicon simply SUCKS, mostly due to its owners.
> > > > > > There must have been 500 of the things at Moab last year and
> > > > > > eventually everyone avoided them like the plague. This months JP
> > > > > > mag lists them among the 10 Jeeps they wouldn't own.
> > > > > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > > A FAMISHED FOX saw some clusters of ripe black grapes hanging from
a
> > > > > trellised vine. She resorted to all her tricks to get at them, but
> > > wearied
> > > > > herself in vain, for she could not reach them. At last she turned
> > away,
> > > > > hiding her disappointment and saying: "The Grapes are sour, and
not
> > ripe
> > > > as
> > > > > I thought."
> > > > >
> > > > > --Aesop, pretty darn smart Ancient Greek
> > > > >
> > > > > Earle
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

TJim

"Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
news:vkl8lj8noog51b@corp.supernews.com...
<snip>
> The cost difference between a D44 & a D30 or D35 is negligible, not even a
> fraction of the $600 they charge for the rear axle upgrade on a std TJ.
The
> cost diff between the std wheels & tires and the Rubicon's 16" Goodyear
MTRs
> is also negligible at the mfr level, and there is NO cost difference
between
> 3.07 gears and 4.10s. There's virtually no cost difference between a 2.72
> NV231 and the Rubicon's 4.1 box, etc. The only real incremental cost
> increase to DC is for the lockers & its control unit. In short, paying
$5k+
> for the cost of the Rubicon's upgrades....IS A RIP!
<snip>
There may not be much of a *cost* difference in the way of materials, labor
to assemble, etc, but there is certainly a *value* difference. There is not
much *cost* difference between a Chevy and a Cadillac, either, but they are
priced considerably different due to actual and perceived *value*. If you
don't believe me, go ahead and buy a 4:1 xfer case, d44s with 4.11s and
lockers and try to sell your 2.72 xfer case and open d30 and d35. I
guarantee you won't come close to covering your costs. That's because, even
though they might be close to the same *cost*, they have less *value* on the
open market.
If the rubi package isn't worth the price to you, don't buy it. Simple.
That's how market price is determined in an open market. If people don't
buy something, it's usually because the perceived value is less than the
asking price.

TJim

"Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
news:vkl8lj8noog51b@corp.supernews.com...
<snip>
> The cost difference between a D44 & a D30 or D35 is negligible, not even a
> fraction of the $600 they charge for the rear axle upgrade on a std TJ.
The
> cost diff between the std wheels & tires and the Rubicon's 16" Goodyear
MTRs
> is also negligible at the mfr level, and there is NO cost difference
between
> 3.07 gears and 4.10s. There's virtually no cost difference between a 2.72
> NV231 and the Rubicon's 4.1 box, etc. The only real incremental cost
> increase to DC is for the lockers & its control unit. In short, paying
$5k+
> for the cost of the Rubicon's upgrades....IS A RIP!
<snip>
There may not be much of a *cost* difference in the way of materials, labor
to assemble, etc, but there is certainly a *value* difference. There is not
much *cost* difference between a Chevy and a Cadillac, either, but they are
priced considerably different due to actual and perceived *value*. If you
don't believe me, go ahead and buy a 4:1 xfer case, d44s with 4.11s and
lockers and try to sell your 2.72 xfer case and open d30 and d35. I
guarantee you won't come close to covering your costs. That's because, even
though they might be close to the same *cost*, they have less *value* on the
open market.
If the rubi package isn't worth the price to you, don't buy it. Simple.
That's how market price is determined in an open market. If people don't
buy something, it's usually because the perceived value is less than the
asking price.

twaldron

DAMN! I can't argue with that logic!

TJim wrote:

> TW, they're not necessarily mutually exclusive. The fox could have just as
> logically walked away saying, "Those grapes probably suck, anyway!"
>
> To my knowledge, there is no definitive and quantitative measure of
> suckiness, so I have to ASSume that suckiness is a relative and subjective
> measurement. That being the case, the "illusion of suckiness" becomes the
> "reality of suckiness", as used in the expression: "Wow, that *really*
> sucks!" Therefore, if you believe something sucks, it does.
>
> My one remaining question is, why is it that something that "really sucks"
> is no better or worse than something that "really blows"?
>
> "twaldron" <twaldron@sbcOBVIOUSglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:LGu2b.3546$UW7.2494@newssvr22.news.prodigy.co m...
>
>>So, you're going with the 'illusion of suckiness' theory as opposed to
>>the 'sour grapes' theory?
>>
>>TJim wrote:
>>
>>SNIP
>>
>>>2. a fixed relative suckiness at a higher relative price has a higher
>>>apparent suckiness, and the same fixed relative suckiness at a lower
>>>relative price has a lower apparent suckiness.
>>
>>
>>--
>>________________________________________________ ___________
>>tw
>>03 TJ Rubicon
>>01 XJ Sport
>>
>>There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
>>-- Dave Barry
>>
>>http://www.7slotgrille.com/jeepers/t...ron/index.html
>>(Please remove the OBVIOUS to reply by email)
>>________________________________________________ ___________
>>
>
>
>

--
__________________________________________________ _________
tw
03 TJ Rubicon
01 XJ Sport

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
-- Dave Barry

http://www.7slotgrille.com/jeepers/t...ron/index.html
(Please remove the OBVIOUS to reply by email)
__________________________________________________ _________

twaldron

DAMN! I can't argue with that logic!

TJim wrote:

> TW, they're not necessarily mutually exclusive. The fox could have just as
> logically walked away saying, "Those grapes probably suck, anyway!"
>
> To my knowledge, there is no definitive and quantitative measure of
> suckiness, so I have to ASSume that suckiness is a relative and subjective
> measurement. That being the case, the "illusion of suckiness" becomes the
> "reality of suckiness", as used in the expression: "Wow, that *really*
> sucks!" Therefore, if you believe something sucks, it does.
>
> My one remaining question is, why is it that something that "really sucks"
> is no better or worse than something that "really blows"?
>
> "twaldron" <twaldron@sbcOBVIOUSglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:LGu2b.3546$UW7.2494@newssvr22.news.prodigy.co m...
>
>>So, you're going with the 'illusion of suckiness' theory as opposed to
>>the 'sour grapes' theory?
>>
>>TJim wrote:
>>
>>SNIP
>>
>>>2. a fixed relative suckiness at a higher relative price has a higher
>>>apparent suckiness, and the same fixed relative suckiness at a lower
>>>relative price has a lower apparent suckiness.
>>
>>
>>--
>>________________________________________________ ___________
>>tw
>>03 TJ Rubicon
>>01 XJ Sport
>>
>>There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
>>-- Dave Barry
>>
>>http://www.7slotgrille.com/jeepers/t...ron/index.html
>>(Please remove the OBVIOUS to reply by email)
>>________________________________________________ ___________
>>
>
>
>

--
__________________________________________________ _________
tw
03 TJ Rubicon
01 XJ Sport

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
-- Dave Barry

http://www.7slotgrille.com/jeepers/t...ron/index.html
(Please remove the OBVIOUS to reply by email)
__________________________________________________ _________

twaldron

The same could be said for diamonds. They are inherently worthless, but
they have a HUGE perceived value, along with an artificial value set
forth and controlled by DeBeers and company.

The Rubicon is worth exactly what people will pay for it. I paid $100
over invoice for mine and was happy to do it. Sure, I'd like it for free
or for the $250 McFly paid for his rusty DJ Surry, but it works for me
and I plan on keeping it a LONG time.

TJim wrote:

> There may not be much of a *cost* difference in the way of materials, labor
> to assemble, etc, but there is certainly a *value* difference. There is not
> much *cost* difference between a Chevy and a Cadillac, either, but they are
> priced considerably different due to actual and perceived *value*. If you
> don't believe me, go ahead and buy a 4:1 xfer case, d44s with 4.11s and
> lockers and try to sell your 2.72 xfer case and open d30 and d35. I
> guarantee you won't come close to covering your costs. That's because, even
> though they might be close to the same *cost*, they have less *value* on the
> open market.
> If the rubi package isn't worth the price to you, don't buy it. Simple.
> That's how market price is determined in an open market. If people don't
> buy something, it's usually because the perceived value is less than the
> asking price.


--
__________________________________________________ _________
tw
03 TJ Rubicon
01 XJ Sport

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
-- Dave Barry

http://www.7slotgrille.com/jeepers/t...ron/index.html
(Please remove the OBVIOUS to reply by email)
__________________________________________________ _________