Thanks Nathan!

McFly has been PLONKED so I don't get his posts but got part of this one
in your response. I've owned a lot of cars and you just have to know how
to buy them. I not only purchased my Rubi for $100 over, I ordered it in
Sept. when they were screaming hot. Some people bend over for the the
dealers I don't, and guess what? They all want my repeat business.

BTW, I think your assessment of McFly is pretty dead on.

Nathan W. Collier wrote:
> youre talking about a very well respected, long time member of this
> newsgroup that has contributed far more than "rubicons suck".
>
> i swear, if it werent for people like jeff strickland who use supernews (and
> others like teranews, altopia.....the services where all the troublemakers
> seem to come from) i would filter out those services entirely. if i do a
> google on "gerald g. mcgeorge" will i find any history beyond your intial
> "rubicons suck" post?
>

--
__________________________________________________ _________
tw
03 TJ Rubicon
01 XJ Sport

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
-- Dave Barry

http://www.7slotgrille.com/jeepers/t...ron/index.html
(Please remove the OBVIOUS to reply by email)
__________________________________________________ _________

 

That was an "assessment"?

We still think you're full of prunes re: the $100 over invoice statement.
But, I won't ask you to prove it....you know what we're thinking!

"twaldron" <twaldron@sbcOBVIOUSglobal.net> wrote in message
news:SCM2b.125$1h2.12@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com.. .
> Thanks Nathan!
>
> McFly has been PLONKED so I don't get his posts but got part of this one
> in your response. I've owned a lot of cars and you just have to know how
> to buy them. I not only purchased my Rubi for $100 over, I ordered it in
> Sept. when they were screaming hot. Some people bend over for the the
> dealers I don't, and guess what? They all want my repeat business.
>
> BTW, I think your assessment of McFly is pretty dead on.
>
> Nathan W. Collier wrote:
> > youre talking about a very well respected, long time member of this
> > newsgroup that has contributed far more than "rubicons suck".
> >
> > i swear, if it werent for people like jeff strickland who use supernews
(and
> > others like teranews, altopia.....the services where all the
troublemakers
> > seem to come from) i would filter out those services entirely. if i do
a
> > google on "gerald g. mcgeorge" will i find any history beyond your
intial
> > "rubicons suck" post?
> >
>
> --
> __________________________________________________ _________
> tw
> 03 TJ Rubicon
> 01 XJ Sport
>
> There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
> -- Dave Barry
>
> http://www.7slotgrille.com/jeepers/t...ron/index.html
> (Please remove the OBVIOUS to reply by email)
> __________________________________________________ _________
>

 

That was an "assessment"?

We still think you're full of prunes re: the $100 over invoice statement.
But, I won't ask you to prove it....you know what we're thinking!

"twaldron" <twaldron@sbcOBVIOUSglobal.net> wrote in message
news:SCM2b.125$1h2.12@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com.. .
> Thanks Nathan!
>
> McFly has been PLONKED so I don't get his posts but got part of this one
> in your response. I've owned a lot of cars and you just have to know how
> to buy them. I not only purchased my Rubi for $100 over, I ordered it in
> Sept. when they were screaming hot. Some people bend over for the the
> dealers I don't, and guess what? They all want my repeat business.
>
> BTW, I think your assessment of McFly is pretty dead on.
>
> Nathan W. Collier wrote:
> > youre talking about a very well respected, long time member of this
> > newsgroup that has contributed far more than "rubicons suck".
> >
> > i swear, if it werent for people like jeff strickland who use supernews
(and
> > others like teranews, altopia.....the services where all the
troublemakers
> > seem to come from) i would filter out those services entirely. if i do
a
> > google on "gerald g. mcgeorge" will i find any history beyond your
intial
> > "rubicons suck" post?
> >
>
> --
> __________________________________________________ _________
> tw
> 03 TJ Rubicon
> 01 XJ Sport
>
> There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
> -- Dave Barry
>
> http://www.7slotgrille.com/jeepers/t...ron/index.html
> (Please remove the OBVIOUS to reply by email)
> __________________________________________________ _________
>

 

If you paid $24,500, congratulations.

"Tyler Dirden" <na@spam.smeat.net> wrote in message
news:9KM2b.103890$2x.30158@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.n et...
> So... and correct me if I'm wrong here (I'm sure you will)... Your saying
> the Rubicon sucks... because it's too expensive? I paid 24,5 for mine...
> Does that suck? Or (dare I ask it) do I suck?
> td
>
>
>
>
> "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> news:vkn4rh1to95jfa@corp.supernews.com...
> > Now you're catching on.
> >
> > Because they all price gouge on upgrades & options DOES NOT make it
right,
> > but does make it....dare I say it again.....SUCK!!
> >
> > Look, the VERY GOOD NEWS about the Rubicon is that it shows Jeep is not
> only
> > aware of what the Jeep brand values encompass, they are in tune with the
> > desires of many enthusiasts and better yet, willing to follow through
with
> a
> > truly great product. I shows courage and good awareness of the brands
core
> > values at the highest levels of DC. And, don't be fooled, there are
bound
> to
> > be a bunch of corporate curmudgeons at DC hoping the Rubicon would flop,
> and
> > it clearly didn't.
> >
> > Having worked for a DC competitor I know the legal & cost hurdles what
the
> > team that pushed this product through had to overcome. I think we can
> credit
> > the Daimler-Benz ownership for making this happen, as we know the
> > Detroit-based morons who run the US auto industry are a bunch of bean
> > counting cowards when it comes to making true "performance" vehicles.
> >
> > HOWEVER, all that aside, price gouging isn't an acceptable trade-off in
my
> > book. The auto industry ranks about one notch above lawyers and child
> > molesters in the eyes of the public for this very reason.
> > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:vkn3pcm2o37363@corp.supernews.com...
> > > So, you are not saying the Rubicon sucks, as I pointed out earlier,
you
> > are
> > > saying the marketing/pricing plan sucks. These are two completely
> > different
> > > things.
> > >
> > > And, yes, I did read your entire post, and an entire reply before I
even
> > got
> > > into the discussion, so I think I am pretty well caught up in what you
> > have
> > > to say. I think you said it poorly, and that has caused this thread to
> go
> > on
> > > and on.
> > >
> > > As for the pricing, ALL automakers charge for upgrades that only
> represent
> > > in incremental cost increase, but they get full retail for the upgrade
> AND
> > > they get to sell the allocated stock parts on another vehicle or over
> the
> > > parts counter. It doesn't really matter where the stock parts go, the
> > point
> > > is the upgrade parts only cost, say, $500 more than the original
parts,
> > yet
> > > they sell the upgrades for full retail instead of only the cost up.
You
> > will
> > > never escape this. You can beat it, partially, by performing the
> upgrades
> > > yourself, then selling the take-offs on the aftermarket. But, most of
us
> > do
> > > not have the skill set needed for these upgrades, nor the storage
space
> > > needed to carry the take-offs waiting for a buyer on eBay.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > > news:vkl8lj8noog51b@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > You're not catching on yet and it's clear you responded before you
> read
> > > what
> > > > I had to say:
> > > >
> > > > Again, the thing is only an UPGRADE of standard spec items, the
> > > collective,
> > > > incremental cost of which is marginal to DC, and yes, they frankly
> could
> > > > just up the spec on all of them to Rubicon level, raise the price
> > > marginally
> > > > and sell a jillion of them. But they won't, 'cuz they're greedy,
> > > > short-sighted, bean-counting bastards.
> > > >
> > > > The cost difference between a D44 & a D30 or D35 is negligible, not
> even
> > a
> > > > fraction of the $600 they charge for the rear axle upgrade on a std
> TJ.
> > > The
> > > > cost diff between the std wheels & tires and the Rubicon's 16"
> Goodyear
> > > MTRs
> > > > is also negligible at the mfr level, and there is NO cost difference
> > > between
> > > > 3.07 gears and 4.10s. There's virtually no cost difference between a
> > 2.72
> > > > NV231 and the Rubicon's 4.1 box, etc. The only real incremental cost
> > > > increase to DC is for the lockers & its control unit. In short,
paying
> > > $5k+
> > > > for the cost of the Rubicon's upgrades....IS A RIP!
> > > >
> > > > << Actually what you have to (sic) of is the relative value placed
> upon
> > > > these accessories by the expected customer base. I happen to think
you
> > are
> > > > right, it is a pricey option package, but if it was cheap, they
might
> as
> > > > well stop making the other packages because everybody would want the
> > > Rubicon
> > > > instead of any other package. >>
> > > >
> > > > ....and thus many of those who are buying them in large measure pay
> the
> > > > ridiculous premium, not to use the stuff, but because the rig is
"hip"
> > > right
> > > > now and looks cool cruising. This is why veteran Jeepers think
> > .....dare
> > > I
> > > > say it again, ..... it SUCKS!!!!
> > > >
> > > > See, I'd love to be able to order a std 4.0 TJ with the 4.10 D44's
at
> > both
> > > > ends (actually, I'd prefer high pinions and a Rock D60 out back, but
> > stay
> > > > with me) the lockers and the 4.1 xfer case...and that's it. Best
> premium
> > I
> > > > should have to pay is, oh $2k, tops. I wouldn't even have to have
the
> > > > metallic pee-yellow paint or the decals on the hood. (See all the
> money
> > DC
> > > > could save?) But, they won't be this practical because they want to
> HOSE
> > > > everyone that considers themselves enthusiast enough to want one,
and
> we
> > > > think (...... dare I say it AGAIN????) that SUCKS!!!!!
> > > >
> > > > Look, I'll take my $30 and build a custom rock CJ that I'll treasure
> > > forever
> > > > before I'll give DC an equivalent amount for this kind of nonsense.
DC
> > > ought
> > > > to be worried about that, 'cuz I own, not only 3 Jeeps, but an MB as
> > well.
> > > > They just might want me to buy another one, don't you think?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:vkl6im3rhqefd6@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vkl16s3idpg7a5@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > I didn't say the Rubicon sucked at all, quite the contrary. I
said
> > it
> > > > was
> > > > > a
> > > > > > great product, but that the mfr/dealer equation overpriced a
> simple
> > > set
> > > > of
> > > > > > upgrade options to the degree that the vehicle won't get bought
or
> > > used
> > > > by
> > > > > > enthusiast Jeepers in a way it was intended.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually, you said it twice that I noticed, here is one instance,
> > > > >
> > > > > "Frankly, there's getting to be a school of thought among veteran
> > > Jeepers
> > > > > that the Rubicon simply SUCKS, mostly due to its owners. There
must
> ha
> > ve
> > > > > been 500 of the things at Moab last year and eventually everyone
> > avoided
> > > > > them like the plague. This months JP mag lists them among the 10
> Jeeps
> > > > they
> > > > > wouldn't own.
> > > > >
> > > > > Not that it's a bad rig out of the box, mind you, but Jeep FU'd
the
> > > entire
> > > > > deal by pricing it so high that posers bought most of them, then
the
> > > > dealers
> > > > > screwed it up even further by ordering them loaded to the max with
> > > stupid
> > > > > options like power mirrors, A/C, etc., driving the price to $30k
> plus.
> > > > > That's right, $30k, and now I suppose you're going to take it out
on
> > the
> > > > > rocks? RIGHT!!!!!"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > And, being a veteran Jeeper, I take offense that you might suggest
> > that
> > > I
> > > > > think it sucks.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Look, the lockers are the only feature of the Rubicon's spec
that
> > are
> > > > > > ADDITIONAL to a base TJ.
> > > > >
> > > > > That, and the D44s that are an option in the back of a base (Sport
> > > > actually)
> > > > > and not even available on the front on any other TJ. Then, there
is
> > the
> > > > tire
> > > > > package that delivers (are they 32s?) a tire option that is not
> > > availabvle
> > > > > on any other Jeep product. We already mentioned the lockers. Did
you
> > > > forget
> > > > > the 4:1 transfer case? Yes, you forgot all about that. Let's see,
> > there
> > > > are
> > > > > 4.10 gears that are not available on any other model except the
base
> > > model
> > > > 4
> > > > > banger. You can't even get 4.10 gears on anything but a 4 cyl
motor,
> > no
> > > > > mater what the trim level is.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > That is, all TJs are 4wd, with xfer cases. Having
> > > > > > worked over 25 years for auto mfrs I can say with authority
> there's
> > > only
> > > > a
> > > > > > minute, marginal cost difference between a D44 and either the
D30
> or
> > > 35,
> > > > > and
> > > > > > the 4.1 xfer case isn't much more costly than a base NV231
either.
> > The
> > > > > only
> > > > > > real added cost to the mfr is the locker/compressor combo, and
> > that's
> > > > not
> > > > > > worth $5k.
> > > > > > (You have to think in terms of what a manufacturer pays for
> > > components,
> > > > > not
> > > > > > what the consumer pays. The difference is enormous.)
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually what you have to of is the relative value placed upon
these
> > > > > accessories by the expected customer base. I happen to think you
are
> > > > right,
> > > > > it is a pricey option package, but if it was cheap, they might as
> well
> > > > stop
> > > > > making the other packages because everybody would want the Rubicon
> > > instead
> > > > > of any other package.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dealers get into the act when they tart up the things with
> > > > non-performance
> > > > > > related "cruising" options (cd players, A/C, etc.) that cost the
> > > > consumer
> > > > > a
> > > > > > bundle and are virtually worthless the minute the thing rolls
off
> > the
> > > > lot,
> > > > > > and add on another $2k for "additional dealer profit" and the
> goose
> > is
> > > > > > cooked..
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree, but you made the specific statement, twice, that the
> Rubicon
> > > > > "SUCKS" (you even used all caps as if to make a particular point),
> but
> > > the
> > > > > only thing you have said that even remotely sucks is that it costs
> > more
> > > > than
> > > > > you are willing to pay, and you can't buy a stripped Rubicon in an
> > > attempt
> > > > > to avoid costly options that you don't want.
> > > > >
> > > > > It takes more than a stupid pricing plan to make a vehicle "SUCK".
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

 

If you paid $24,500, congratulations.

"Tyler Dirden" <na@spam.smeat.net> wrote in message
news:9KM2b.103890$2x.30158@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.n et...
> So... and correct me if I'm wrong here (I'm sure you will)... Your saying
> the Rubicon sucks... because it's too expensive? I paid 24,5 for mine...
> Does that suck? Or (dare I ask it) do I suck?
> td
>
>
>
>
> "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> news:vkn4rh1to95jfa@corp.supernews.com...
> > Now you're catching on.
> >
> > Because they all price gouge on upgrades & options DOES NOT make it
right,
> > but does make it....dare I say it again.....SUCK!!
> >
> > Look, the VERY GOOD NEWS about the Rubicon is that it shows Jeep is not
> only
> > aware of what the Jeep brand values encompass, they are in tune with the
> > desires of many enthusiasts and better yet, willing to follow through
with
> a
> > truly great product. I shows courage and good awareness of the brands
core
> > values at the highest levels of DC. And, don't be fooled, there are
bound
> to
> > be a bunch of corporate curmudgeons at DC hoping the Rubicon would flop,
> and
> > it clearly didn't.
> >
> > Having worked for a DC competitor I know the legal & cost hurdles what
the
> > team that pushed this product through had to overcome. I think we can
> credit
> > the Daimler-Benz ownership for making this happen, as we know the
> > Detroit-based morons who run the US auto industry are a bunch of bean
> > counting cowards when it comes to making true "performance" vehicles.
> >
> > HOWEVER, all that aside, price gouging isn't an acceptable trade-off in
my
> > book. The auto industry ranks about one notch above lawyers and child
> > molesters in the eyes of the public for this very reason.
> > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:vkn3pcm2o37363@corp.supernews.com...
> > > So, you are not saying the Rubicon sucks, as I pointed out earlier,
you
> > are
> > > saying the marketing/pricing plan sucks. These are two completely
> > different
> > > things.
> > >
> > > And, yes, I did read your entire post, and an entire reply before I
even
> > got
> > > into the discussion, so I think I am pretty well caught up in what you
> > have
> > > to say. I think you said it poorly, and that has caused this thread to
> go
> > on
> > > and on.
> > >
> > > As for the pricing, ALL automakers charge for upgrades that only
> represent
> > > in incremental cost increase, but they get full retail for the upgrade
> AND
> > > they get to sell the allocated stock parts on another vehicle or over
> the
> > > parts counter. It doesn't really matter where the stock parts go, the
> > point
> > > is the upgrade parts only cost, say, $500 more than the original
parts,
> > yet
> > > they sell the upgrades for full retail instead of only the cost up.
You
> > will
> > > never escape this. You can beat it, partially, by performing the
> upgrades
> > > yourself, then selling the take-offs on the aftermarket. But, most of
us
> > do
> > > not have the skill set needed for these upgrades, nor the storage
space
> > > needed to carry the take-offs waiting for a buyer on eBay.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > > news:vkl8lj8noog51b@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > You're not catching on yet and it's clear you responded before you
> read
> > > what
> > > > I had to say:
> > > >
> > > > Again, the thing is only an UPGRADE of standard spec items, the
> > > collective,
> > > > incremental cost of which is marginal to DC, and yes, they frankly
> could
> > > > just up the spec on all of them to Rubicon level, raise the price
> > > marginally
> > > > and sell a jillion of them. But they won't, 'cuz they're greedy,
> > > > short-sighted, bean-counting bastards.
> > > >
> > > > The cost difference between a D44 & a D30 or D35 is negligible, not
> even
> > a
> > > > fraction of the $600 they charge for the rear axle upgrade on a std
> TJ.
> > > The
> > > > cost diff between the std wheels & tires and the Rubicon's 16"
> Goodyear
> > > MTRs
> > > > is also negligible at the mfr level, and there is NO cost difference
> > > between
> > > > 3.07 gears and 4.10s. There's virtually no cost difference between a
> > 2.72
> > > > NV231 and the Rubicon's 4.1 box, etc. The only real incremental cost
> > > > increase to DC is for the lockers & its control unit. In short,
paying
> > > $5k+
> > > > for the cost of the Rubicon's upgrades....IS A RIP!
> > > >
> > > > << Actually what you have to (sic) of is the relative value placed
> upon
> > > > these accessories by the expected customer base. I happen to think
you
> > are
> > > > right, it is a pricey option package, but if it was cheap, they
might
> as
> > > > well stop making the other packages because everybody would want the
> > > Rubicon
> > > > instead of any other package. >>
> > > >
> > > > ....and thus many of those who are buying them in large measure pay
> the
> > > > ridiculous premium, not to use the stuff, but because the rig is
"hip"
> > > right
> > > > now and looks cool cruising. This is why veteran Jeepers think
> > .....dare
> > > I
> > > > say it again, ..... it SUCKS!!!!
> > > >
> > > > See, I'd love to be able to order a std 4.0 TJ with the 4.10 D44's
at
> > both
> > > > ends (actually, I'd prefer high pinions and a Rock D60 out back, but
> > stay
> > > > with me) the lockers and the 4.1 xfer case...and that's it. Best
> premium
> > I
> > > > should have to pay is, oh $2k, tops. I wouldn't even have to have
the
> > > > metallic pee-yellow paint or the decals on the hood. (See all the
> money
> > DC
> > > > could save?) But, they won't be this practical because they want to
> HOSE
> > > > everyone that considers themselves enthusiast enough to want one,
and
> we
> > > > think (...... dare I say it AGAIN????) that SUCKS!!!!!
> > > >
> > > > Look, I'll take my $30 and build a custom rock CJ that I'll treasure
> > > forever
> > > > before I'll give DC an equivalent amount for this kind of nonsense.
DC
> > > ought
> > > > to be worried about that, 'cuz I own, not only 3 Jeeps, but an MB as
> > well.
> > > > They just might want me to buy another one, don't you think?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:vkl6im3rhqefd6@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vkl16s3idpg7a5@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > I didn't say the Rubicon sucked at all, quite the contrary. I
said
> > it
> > > > was
> > > > > a
> > > > > > great product, but that the mfr/dealer equation overpriced a
> simple
> > > set
> > > > of
> > > > > > upgrade options to the degree that the vehicle won't get bought
or
> > > used
> > > > by
> > > > > > enthusiast Jeepers in a way it was intended.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually, you said it twice that I noticed, here is one instance,
> > > > >
> > > > > "Frankly, there's getting to be a school of thought among veteran
> > > Jeepers
> > > > > that the Rubicon simply SUCKS, mostly due to its owners. There
must
> ha
> > ve
> > > > > been 500 of the things at Moab last year and eventually everyone
> > avoided
> > > > > them like the plague. This months JP mag lists them among the 10
> Jeeps
> > > > they
> > > > > wouldn't own.
> > > > >
> > > > > Not that it's a bad rig out of the box, mind you, but Jeep FU'd
the
> > > entire
> > > > > deal by pricing it so high that posers bought most of them, then
the
> > > > dealers
> > > > > screwed it up even further by ordering them loaded to the max with
> > > stupid
> > > > > options like power mirrors, A/C, etc., driving the price to $30k
> plus.
> > > > > That's right, $30k, and now I suppose you're going to take it out
on
> > the
> > > > > rocks? RIGHT!!!!!"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > And, being a veteran Jeeper, I take offense that you might suggest
> > that
> > > I
> > > > > think it sucks.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Look, the lockers are the only feature of the Rubicon's spec
that
> > are
> > > > > > ADDITIONAL to a base TJ.
> > > > >
> > > > > That, and the D44s that are an option in the back of a base (Sport
> > > > actually)
> > > > > and not even available on the front on any other TJ. Then, there
is
> > the
> > > > tire
> > > > > package that delivers (are they 32s?) a tire option that is not
> > > availabvle
> > > > > on any other Jeep product. We already mentioned the lockers. Did
you
> > > > forget
> > > > > the 4:1 transfer case? Yes, you forgot all about that. Let's see,
> > there
> > > > are
> > > > > 4.10 gears that are not available on any other model except the
base
> > > model
> > > > 4
> > > > > banger. You can't even get 4.10 gears on anything but a 4 cyl
motor,
> > no
> > > > > mater what the trim level is.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > That is, all TJs are 4wd, with xfer cases. Having
> > > > > > worked over 25 years for auto mfrs I can say with authority
> there's
> > > only
> > > > a
> > > > > > minute, marginal cost difference between a D44 and either the
D30
> or
> > > 35,
> > > > > and
> > > > > > the 4.1 xfer case isn't much more costly than a base NV231
either.
> > The
> > > > > only
> > > > > > real added cost to the mfr is the locker/compressor combo, and
> > that's
> > > > not
> > > > > > worth $5k.
> > > > > > (You have to think in terms of what a manufacturer pays for
> > > components,
> > > > > not
> > > > > > what the consumer pays. The difference is enormous.)
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually what you have to of is the relative value placed upon
these
> > > > > accessories by the expected customer base. I happen to think you
are
> > > > right,
> > > > > it is a pricey option package, but if it was cheap, they might as
> well
> > > > stop
> > > > > making the other packages because everybody would want the Rubicon
> > > instead
> > > > > of any other package.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dealers get into the act when they tart up the things with
> > > > non-performance
> > > > > > related "cruising" options (cd players, A/C, etc.) that cost the
> > > > consumer
> > > > > a
> > > > > > bundle and are virtually worthless the minute the thing rolls
off
> > the
> > > > lot,
> > > > > > and add on another $2k for "additional dealer profit" and the
> goose
> > is
> > > > > > cooked..
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree, but you made the specific statement, twice, that the
> Rubicon
> > > > > "SUCKS" (you even used all caps as if to make a particular point),
> but
> > > the
> > > > > only thing you have said that even remotely sucks is that it costs
> > more
> > > > than
> > > > > you are willing to pay, and you can't buy a stripped Rubicon in an
> > > attempt
> > > > > to avoid costly options that you don't want.
> > > > >
> > > > > It takes more than a stupid pricing plan to make a vehicle "SUCK".
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

 

Oh I for got the owners are another reason the Rubi sucks. I'm quoting
here...

"Frankly, there's getting to be a school of thought among veteran Jeepers
that the Rubicon simply SUCKS, mostly due to its owners."

Have I got a good grip on things?
td

"Tyler Dirden" <na@spam.smeat.net> wrote in message
news:9KM2b.103890$2x.30158@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.n et...
> So... and correct me if I'm wrong here (I'm sure you will)... Your saying
> the Rubicon sucks... because it's too expensive? I paid 24,5 for mine...
> Does that suck? Or (dare I ask it) do I suck?
> td
>
>
>
>
> "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> news:vkn4rh1to95jfa@corp.supernews.com...
> > Now you're catching on.
> >
> > Because they all price gouge on upgrades & options DOES NOT make it
right,
> > but does make it....dare I say it again.....SUCK!!
> >
> > Look, the VERY GOOD NEWS about the Rubicon is that it shows Jeep is not
> only
> > aware of what the Jeep brand values encompass, they are in tune with the
> > desires of many enthusiasts and better yet, willing to follow through
with
> a
> > truly great product. I shows courage and good awareness of the brands
core
> > values at the highest levels of DC. And, don't be fooled, there are
bound
> to
> > be a bunch of corporate curmudgeons at DC hoping the Rubicon would flop,
> and
> > it clearly didn't.
> >
> > Having worked for a DC competitor I know the legal & cost hurdles what
the
> > team that pushed this product through had to overcome. I think we can
> credit
> > the Daimler-Benz ownership for making this happen, as we know the
> > Detroit-based morons who run the US auto industry are a bunch of bean
> > counting cowards when it comes to making true "performance" vehicles.
> >
> > HOWEVER, all that aside, price gouging isn't an acceptable trade-off in
my
> > book. The auto industry ranks about one notch above lawyers and child
> > molesters in the eyes of the public for this very reason.
> > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:vkn3pcm2o37363@corp.supernews.com...
> > > So, you are not saying the Rubicon sucks, as I pointed out earlier,
you
> > are
> > > saying the marketing/pricing plan sucks. These are two completely
> > different
> > > things.
> > >
> > > And, yes, I did read your entire post, and an entire reply before I
even
> > got
> > > into the discussion, so I think I am pretty well caught up in what you
> > have
> > > to say. I think you said it poorly, and that has caused this thread to
> go
> > on
> > > and on.
> > >
> > > As for the pricing, ALL automakers charge for upgrades that only
> represent
> > > in incremental cost increase, but they get full retail for the upgrade
> AND
> > > they get to sell the allocated stock parts on another vehicle or over
> the
> > > parts counter. It doesn't really matter where the stock parts go, the
> > point
> > > is the upgrade parts only cost, say, $500 more than the original
parts,
> > yet
> > > they sell the upgrades for full retail instead of only the cost up.
You
> > will
> > > never escape this. You can beat it, partially, by performing the
> upgrades
> > > yourself, then selling the take-offs on the aftermarket. But, most of
us
> > do
> > > not have the skill set needed for these upgrades, nor the storage
space
> > > needed to carry the take-offs waiting for a buyer on eBay.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > > news:vkl8lj8noog51b@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > You're not catching on yet and it's clear you responded before you
> read
> > > what
> > > > I had to say:
> > > >
> > > > Again, the thing is only an UPGRADE of standard spec items, the
> > > collective,
> > > > incremental cost of which is marginal to DC, and yes, they frankly
> could
> > > > just up the spec on all of them to Rubicon level, raise the price
> > > marginally
> > > > and sell a jillion of them. But they won't, 'cuz they're greedy,
> > > > short-sighted, bean-counting bastards.
> > > >
> > > > The cost difference between a D44 & a D30 or D35 is negligible, not
> even
> > a
> > > > fraction of the $600 they charge for the rear axle upgrade on a std
> TJ.
> > > The
> > > > cost diff between the std wheels & tires and the Rubicon's 16"
> Goodyear
> > > MTRs
> > > > is also negligible at the mfr level, and there is NO cost difference
> > > between
> > > > 3.07 gears and 4.10s. There's virtually no cost difference between a
> > 2.72
> > > > NV231 and the Rubicon's 4.1 box, etc. The only real incremental cost
> > > > increase to DC is for the lockers & its control unit. In short,
paying
> > > $5k+
> > > > for the cost of the Rubicon's upgrades....IS A RIP!
> > > >
> > > > << Actually what you have to (sic) of is the relative value placed
> upon
> > > > these accessories by the expected customer base. I happen to think
you
> > are
> > > > right, it is a pricey option package, but if it was cheap, they
might
> as
> > > > well stop making the other packages because everybody would want the
> > > Rubicon
> > > > instead of any other package. >>
> > > >
> > > > ....and thus many of those who are buying them in large measure pay
> the
> > > > ridiculous premium, not to use the stuff, but because the rig is
"hip"
> > > right
> > > > now and looks cool cruising. This is why veteran Jeepers think
> > .....dare
> > > I
> > > > say it again, ..... it SUCKS!!!!
> > > >
> > > > See, I'd love to be able to order a std 4.0 TJ with the 4.10 D44's
at
> > both
> > > > ends (actually, I'd prefer high pinions and a Rock D60 out back, but
> > stay
> > > > with me) the lockers and the 4.1 xfer case...and that's it. Best
> premium
> > I
> > > > should have to pay is, oh $2k, tops. I wouldn't even have to have
the
> > > > metallic pee-yellow paint or the decals on the hood. (See all the
> money
> > DC
> > > > could save?) But, they won't be this practical because they want to
> HOSE
> > > > everyone that considers themselves enthusiast enough to want one,
and
> we
> > > > think (...... dare I say it AGAIN????) that SUCKS!!!!!
> > > >
> > > > Look, I'll take my $30 and build a custom rock CJ that I'll treasure
> > > forever
> > > > before I'll give DC an equivalent amount for this kind of nonsense.
DC
> > > ought
> > > > to be worried about that, 'cuz I own, not only 3 Jeeps, but an MB as
> > well.
> > > > They just might want me to buy another one, don't you think?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:vkl6im3rhqefd6@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vkl16s3idpg7a5@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > I didn't say the Rubicon sucked at all, quite the contrary. I
said
> > it
> > > > was
> > > > > a
> > > > > > great product, but that the mfr/dealer equation overpriced a
> simple
> > > set
> > > > of
> > > > > > upgrade options to the degree that the vehicle won't get bought
or
> > > used
> > > > by
> > > > > > enthusiast Jeepers in a way it was intended.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually, you said it twice that I noticed, here is one instance,
> > > > >
> > > > > "Frankly, there's getting to be a school of thought among veteran
> > > Jeepers
> > > > > that the Rubicon simply SUCKS, mostly due to its owners. There
must
> ha
> > ve
> > > > > been 500 of the things at Moab last year and eventually everyone
> > avoided
> > > > > them like the plague. This months JP mag lists them among the 10
> Jeeps
> > > > they
> > > > > wouldn't own.
> > > > >
> > > > > Not that it's a bad rig out of the box, mind you, but Jeep FU'd
the
> > > entire
> > > > > deal by pricing it so high that posers bought most of them, then
the
> > > > dealers
> > > > > screwed it up even further by ordering them loaded to the max with
> > > stupid
> > > > > options like power mirrors, A/C, etc., driving the price to $30k
> plus.
> > > > > That's right, $30k, and now I suppose you're going to take it out
on
> > the
> > > > > rocks? RIGHT!!!!!"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > And, being a veteran Jeeper, I take offense that you might suggest
> > that
> > > I
> > > > > think it sucks.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Look, the lockers are the only feature of the Rubicon's spec
that
> > are
> > > > > > ADDITIONAL to a base TJ.
> > > > >
> > > > > That, and the D44s that are an option in the back of a base (Sport
> > > > actually)
> > > > > and not even available on the front on any other TJ. Then, there
is
> > the
> > > > tire
> > > > > package that delivers (are they 32s?) a tire option that is not
> > > availabvle
> > > > > on any other Jeep product. We already mentioned the lockers. Did
you
> > > > forget
> > > > > the 4:1 transfer case? Yes, you forgot all about that. Let's see,
> > there
> > > > are
> > > > > 4.10 gears that are not available on any other model except the
base
> > > model
> > > > 4
> > > > > banger. You can't even get 4.10 gears on anything but a 4 cyl
motor,
> > no
> > > > > mater what the trim level is.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > That is, all TJs are 4wd, with xfer cases. Having
> > > > > > worked over 25 years for auto mfrs I can say with authority
> there's
> > > only
> > > > a
> > > > > > minute, marginal cost difference between a D44 and either the
D30
> or
> > > 35,
> > > > > and
> > > > > > the 4.1 xfer case isn't much more costly than a base NV231
either.
> > The
> > > > > only
> > > > > > real added cost to the mfr is the locker/compressor combo, and
> > that's
> > > > not
> > > > > > worth $5k.
> > > > > > (You have to think in terms of what a manufacturer pays for
> > > components,
> > > > > not
> > > > > > what the consumer pays. The difference is enormous.)
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually what you have to of is the relative value placed upon
these
> > > > > accessories by the expected customer base. I happen to think you
are
> > > > right,
> > > > > it is a pricey option package, but if it was cheap, they might as
> well
> > > > stop
> > > > > making the other packages because everybody would want the Rubicon
> > > instead
> > > > > of any other package.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dealers get into the act when they tart up the things with
> > > > non-performance
> > > > > > related "cruising" options (cd players, A/C, etc.) that cost the
> > > > consumer
> > > > > a
> > > > > > bundle and are virtually worthless the minute the thing rolls
off
> > the
> > > > lot,
> > > > > > and add on another $2k for "additional dealer profit" and the
> goose
> > is
> > > > > > cooked..
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree, but you made the specific statement, twice, that the
> Rubicon
> > > > > "SUCKS" (you even used all caps as if to make a particular point),
> but
> > > the
> > > > > only thing you have said that even remotely sucks is that it costs
> > more
> > > > than
> > > > > you are willing to pay, and you can't buy a stripped Rubicon in an
> > > attempt
> > > > > to avoid costly options that you don't want.
> > > > >
> > > > > It takes more than a stupid pricing plan to make a vehicle "SUCK".
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

 

Oh I for got the owners are another reason the Rubi sucks. I'm quoting
here...

"Frankly, there's getting to be a school of thought among veteran Jeepers
that the Rubicon simply SUCKS, mostly due to its owners."

Have I got a good grip on things?
td

"Tyler Dirden" <na@spam.smeat.net> wrote in message
news:9KM2b.103890$2x.30158@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.n et...
> So... and correct me if I'm wrong here (I'm sure you will)... Your saying
> the Rubicon sucks... because it's too expensive? I paid 24,5 for mine...
> Does that suck? Or (dare I ask it) do I suck?
> td
>
>
>
>
> "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> news:vkn4rh1to95jfa@corp.supernews.com...
> > Now you're catching on.
> >
> > Because they all price gouge on upgrades & options DOES NOT make it
right,
> > but does make it....dare I say it again.....SUCK!!
> >
> > Look, the VERY GOOD NEWS about the Rubicon is that it shows Jeep is not
> only
> > aware of what the Jeep brand values encompass, they are in tune with the
> > desires of many enthusiasts and better yet, willing to follow through
with
> a
> > truly great product. I shows courage and good awareness of the brands
core
> > values at the highest levels of DC. And, don't be fooled, there are
bound
> to
> > be a bunch of corporate curmudgeons at DC hoping the Rubicon would flop,
> and
> > it clearly didn't.
> >
> > Having worked for a DC competitor I know the legal & cost hurdles what
the
> > team that pushed this product through had to overcome. I think we can
> credit
> > the Daimler-Benz ownership for making this happen, as we know the
> > Detroit-based morons who run the US auto industry are a bunch of bean
> > counting cowards when it comes to making true "performance" vehicles.
> >
> > HOWEVER, all that aside, price gouging isn't an acceptable trade-off in
my
> > book. The auto industry ranks about one notch above lawyers and child
> > molesters in the eyes of the public for this very reason.
> > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:vkn3pcm2o37363@corp.supernews.com...
> > > So, you are not saying the Rubicon sucks, as I pointed out earlier,
you
> > are
> > > saying the marketing/pricing plan sucks. These are two completely
> > different
> > > things.
> > >
> > > And, yes, I did read your entire post, and an entire reply before I
even
> > got
> > > into the discussion, so I think I am pretty well caught up in what you
> > have
> > > to say. I think you said it poorly, and that has caused this thread to
> go
> > on
> > > and on.
> > >
> > > As for the pricing, ALL automakers charge for upgrades that only
> represent
> > > in incremental cost increase, but they get full retail for the upgrade
> AND
> > > they get to sell the allocated stock parts on another vehicle or over
> the
> > > parts counter. It doesn't really matter where the stock parts go, the
> > point
> > > is the upgrade parts only cost, say, $500 more than the original
parts,
> > yet
> > > they sell the upgrades for full retail instead of only the cost up.
You
> > will
> > > never escape this. You can beat it, partially, by performing the
> upgrades
> > > yourself, then selling the take-offs on the aftermarket. But, most of
us
> > do
> > > not have the skill set needed for these upgrades, nor the storage
space
> > > needed to carry the take-offs waiting for a buyer on eBay.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > > news:vkl8lj8noog51b@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > You're not catching on yet and it's clear you responded before you
> read
> > > what
> > > > I had to say:
> > > >
> > > > Again, the thing is only an UPGRADE of standard spec items, the
> > > collective,
> > > > incremental cost of which is marginal to DC, and yes, they frankly
> could
> > > > just up the spec on all of them to Rubicon level, raise the price
> > > marginally
> > > > and sell a jillion of them. But they won't, 'cuz they're greedy,
> > > > short-sighted, bean-counting bastards.
> > > >
> > > > The cost difference between a D44 & a D30 or D35 is negligible, not
> even
> > a
> > > > fraction of the $600 they charge for the rear axle upgrade on a std
> TJ.
> > > The
> > > > cost diff between the std wheels & tires and the Rubicon's 16"
> Goodyear
> > > MTRs
> > > > is also negligible at the mfr level, and there is NO cost difference
> > > between
> > > > 3.07 gears and 4.10s. There's virtually no cost difference between a
> > 2.72
> > > > NV231 and the Rubicon's 4.1 box, etc. The only real incremental cost
> > > > increase to DC is for the lockers & its control unit. In short,
paying
> > > $5k+
> > > > for the cost of the Rubicon's upgrades....IS A RIP!
> > > >
> > > > << Actually what you have to (sic) of is the relative value placed
> upon
> > > > these accessories by the expected customer base. I happen to think
you
> > are
> > > > right, it is a pricey option package, but if it was cheap, they
might
> as
> > > > well stop making the other packages because everybody would want the
> > > Rubicon
> > > > instead of any other package. >>
> > > >
> > > > ....and thus many of those who are buying them in large measure pay
> the
> > > > ridiculous premium, not to use the stuff, but because the rig is
"hip"
> > > right
> > > > now and looks cool cruising. This is why veteran Jeepers think
> > .....dare
> > > I
> > > > say it again, ..... it SUCKS!!!!
> > > >
> > > > See, I'd love to be able to order a std 4.0 TJ with the 4.10 D44's
at
> > both
> > > > ends (actually, I'd prefer high pinions and a Rock D60 out back, but
> > stay
> > > > with me) the lockers and the 4.1 xfer case...and that's it. Best
> premium
> > I
> > > > should have to pay is, oh $2k, tops. I wouldn't even have to have
the
> > > > metallic pee-yellow paint or the decals on the hood. (See all the
> money
> > DC
> > > > could save?) But, they won't be this practical because they want to
> HOSE
> > > > everyone that considers themselves enthusiast enough to want one,
and
> we
> > > > think (...... dare I say it AGAIN????) that SUCKS!!!!!
> > > >
> > > > Look, I'll take my $30 and build a custom rock CJ that I'll treasure
> > > forever
> > > > before I'll give DC an equivalent amount for this kind of nonsense.
DC
> > > ought
> > > > to be worried about that, 'cuz I own, not only 3 Jeeps, but an MB as
> > well.
> > > > They just might want me to buy another one, don't you think?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:vkl6im3rhqefd6@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vkl16s3idpg7a5@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > I didn't say the Rubicon sucked at all, quite the contrary. I
said
> > it
> > > > was
> > > > > a
> > > > > > great product, but that the mfr/dealer equation overpriced a
> simple
> > > set
> > > > of
> > > > > > upgrade options to the degree that the vehicle won't get bought
or
> > > used
> > > > by
> > > > > > enthusiast Jeepers in a way it was intended.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually, you said it twice that I noticed, here is one instance,
> > > > >
> > > > > "Frankly, there's getting to be a school of thought among veteran
> > > Jeepers
> > > > > that the Rubicon simply SUCKS, mostly due to its owners. There
must
> ha
> > ve
> > > > > been 500 of the things at Moab last year and eventually everyone
> > avoided
> > > > > them like the plague. This months JP mag lists them among the 10
> Jeeps
> > > > they
> > > > > wouldn't own.
> > > > >
> > > > > Not that it's a bad rig out of the box, mind you, but Jeep FU'd
the
> > > entire
> > > > > deal by pricing it so high that posers bought most of them, then
the
> > > > dealers
> > > > > screwed it up even further by ordering them loaded to the max with
> > > stupid
> > > > > options like power mirrors, A/C, etc., driving the price to $30k
> plus.
> > > > > That's right, $30k, and now I suppose you're going to take it out
on
> > the
> > > > > rocks? RIGHT!!!!!"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > And, being a veteran Jeeper, I take offense that you might suggest
> > that
> > > I
> > > > > think it sucks.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Look, the lockers are the only feature of the Rubicon's spec
that
> > are
> > > > > > ADDITIONAL to a base TJ.
> > > > >
> > > > > That, and the D44s that are an option in the back of a base (Sport
> > > > actually)
> > > > > and not even available on the front on any other TJ. Then, there
is
> > the
> > > > tire
> > > > > package that delivers (are they 32s?) a tire option that is not
> > > availabvle
> > > > > on any other Jeep product. We already mentioned the lockers. Did
you
> > > > forget
> > > > > the 4:1 transfer case? Yes, you forgot all about that. Let's see,
> > there
> > > > are
> > > > > 4.10 gears that are not available on any other model except the
base
> > > model
> > > > 4
> > > > > banger. You can't even get 4.10 gears on anything but a 4 cyl
motor,
> > no
> > > > > mater what the trim level is.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > That is, all TJs are 4wd, with xfer cases. Having
> > > > > > worked over 25 years for auto mfrs I can say with authority
> there's
> > > only
> > > > a
> > > > > > minute, marginal cost difference between a D44 and either the
D30
> or
> > > 35,
> > > > > and
> > > > > > the 4.1 xfer case isn't much more costly than a base NV231
either.
> > The
> > > > > only
> > > > > > real added cost to the mfr is the locker/compressor combo, and
> > that's
> > > > not
> > > > > > worth $5k.
> > > > > > (You have to think in terms of what a manufacturer pays for
> > > components,
> > > > > not
> > > > > > what the consumer pays. The difference is enormous.)
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually what you have to of is the relative value placed upon
these
> > > > > accessories by the expected customer base. I happen to think you
are
> > > > right,
> > > > > it is a pricey option package, but if it was cheap, they might as
> well
> > > > stop
> > > > > making the other packages because everybody would want the Rubicon
> > > instead
> > > > > of any other package.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dealers get into the act when they tart up the things with
> > > > non-performance
> > > > > > related "cruising" options (cd players, A/C, etc.) that cost the
> > > > consumer
> > > > > a
> > > > > > bundle and are virtually worthless the minute the thing rolls
off
> > the
> > > > lot,
> > > > > > and add on another $2k for "additional dealer profit" and the
> goose
> > is
> > > > > > cooked..
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree, but you made the specific statement, twice, that the
> Rubicon
> > > > > "SUCKS" (you even used all caps as if to make a particular point),
> but
> > > the
> > > > > only thing you have said that even remotely sucks is that it costs
> > more
> > > > than
> > > > > you are willing to pay, and you can't buy a stripped Rubicon in an
> > > attempt
> > > > > to avoid costly options that you don't want.
> > > > >
> > > > > It takes more than a stupid pricing plan to make a vehicle "SUCK".
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

 

"twaldron" <twaldron@sbcOBVIOUSglobal.net> wrote in message
news:SCM2b.125$1h2.12@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com.. .
> Thanks Nathan!

ah hell, i just call it like i see it brother.

--
Nathan W. Collier
http://7SlotGrille.com

 

"twaldron" <twaldron@sbcOBVIOUSglobal.net> wrote in message
news:SCM2b.125$1h2.12@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com.. .
> Thanks Nathan!

ah hell, i just call it like i see it brother.

--
Nathan W. Collier
http://7SlotGrille.com

 

Not at all, you are simply running around in circles like you have a nail
through one foot. Take a deep breath....

"Veteran Jeepers" and their opinions doesn't necessarily include me, I just
commented upon what I've heard from my fellow Jeep enthusiasts and what I've
read, thus my JP/Cappa reference. I didn't even say I agreed with this point
of view, did I? Hell, I even apologized if I offended any of the very (ahem)
THIN SKINNED Rubicon owners out there (which doesn't include ALL Rubicon
owners, I'm sure.)

My comment was intended to be critical of DC for their outrageous pricing of
a very simple set of component upgrades that some can argue should be
standard equipment anyway.


"Tyler Dirden" <na@spam.smeat.net> wrote in message
news:NOM2b.203715$It4.96822@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att. net...
> Oh I for got the owners are another reason the Rubi sucks. I'm quoting
> here...
>
> "Frankly, there's getting to be a school of thought among veteran Jeepers
> that the Rubicon simply SUCKS, mostly due to its owners."
>
> Have I got a good grip on things?
> td
>
> "Tyler Dirden" <na@spam.smeat.net> wrote in message
> news:9KM2b.103890$2x.30158@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.n et...
> > So... and correct me if I'm wrong here (I'm sure you will)... Your
saying
> > the Rubicon sucks... because it's too expensive? I paid 24,5 for mine...
> > Does that suck? Or (dare I ask it) do I suck?
> > td
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > news:vkn4rh1to95jfa@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Now you're catching on.
> > >
> > > Because they all price gouge on upgrades & options DOES NOT make it
> right,
> > > but does make it....dare I say it again.....SUCK!!
> > >
> > > Look, the VERY GOOD NEWS about the Rubicon is that it shows Jeep is
not
> > only
> > > aware of what the Jeep brand values encompass, they are in tune with
the
> > > desires of many enthusiasts and better yet, willing to follow through
> with
> > a
> > > truly great product. I shows courage and good awareness of the brands
> core
> > > values at the highest levels of DC. And, don't be fooled, there are
> bound
> > to
> > > be a bunch of corporate curmudgeons at DC hoping the Rubicon would
flop,
> > and
> > > it clearly didn't.
> > >
> > > Having worked for a DC competitor I know the legal & cost hurdles what
> the
> > > team that pushed this product through had to overcome. I think we can
> > credit
> > > the Daimler-Benz ownership for making this happen, as we know the
> > > Detroit-based morons who run the US auto industry are a bunch of bean
> > > counting cowards when it comes to making true "performance" vehicles.
> > >
> > > HOWEVER, all that aside, price gouging isn't an acceptable trade-off
in
> my
> > > book. The auto industry ranks about one notch above lawyers and child
> > > molesters in the eyes of the public for this very reason.
> > > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:vkn3pcm2o37363@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > So, you are not saying the Rubicon sucks, as I pointed out earlier,
> you
> > > are
> > > > saying the marketing/pricing plan sucks. These are two completely
> > > different
> > > > things.
> > > >
> > > > And, yes, I did read your entire post, and an entire reply before I
> even
> > > got
> > > > into the discussion, so I think I am pretty well caught up in what
you
> > > have
> > > > to say. I think you said it poorly, and that has caused this thread
to
> > go
> > > on
> > > > and on.
> > > >
> > > > As for the pricing, ALL automakers charge for upgrades that only
> > represent
> > > > in incremental cost increase, but they get full retail for the
upgrade
> > AND
> > > > they get to sell the allocated stock parts on another vehicle or
over
> > the
> > > > parts counter. It doesn't really matter where the stock parts go,
the
> > > point
> > > > is the upgrade parts only cost, say, $500 more than the original
> parts,
> > > yet
> > > > they sell the upgrades for full retail instead of only the cost up.
> You
> > > will
> > > > never escape this. You can beat it, partially, by performing the
> > upgrades
> > > > yourself, then selling the take-offs on the aftermarket. But, most
of
> us
> > > do
> > > > not have the skill set needed for these upgrades, nor the storage
> space
> > > > needed to carry the take-offs waiting for a buyer on eBay.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:vkl8lj8noog51b@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > You're not catching on yet and it's clear you responded before you
> > read
> > > > what
> > > > > I had to say:
> > > > >
> > > > > Again, the thing is only an UPGRADE of standard spec items, the
> > > > collective,
> > > > > incremental cost of which is marginal to DC, and yes, they frankly
> > could
> > > > > just up the spec on all of them to Rubicon level, raise the price
> > > > marginally
> > > > > and sell a jillion of them. But they won't, 'cuz they're greedy,
> > > > > short-sighted, bean-counting bastards.
> > > > >
> > > > > The cost difference between a D44 & a D30 or D35 is negligible,
not
> > even
> > > a
> > > > > fraction of the $600 they charge for the rear axle upgrade on a
std
> > TJ.
> > > > The
> > > > > cost diff between the std wheels & tires and the Rubicon's 16"
> > Goodyear
> > > > MTRs
> > > > > is also negligible at the mfr level, and there is NO cost
difference
> > > > between
> > > > > 3.07 gears and 4.10s. There's virtually no cost difference between
a
> > > 2.72
> > > > > NV231 and the Rubicon's 4.1 box, etc. The only real incremental
cost
> > > > > increase to DC is for the lockers & its control unit. In short,
> paying
> > > > $5k+
> > > > > for the cost of the Rubicon's upgrades....IS A RIP!
> > > > >
> > > > > << Actually what you have to (sic) of is the relative value placed
> > upon
> > > > > these accessories by the expected customer base. I happen to think
> you
> > > are
> > > > > right, it is a pricey option package, but if it was cheap, they
> might
> > as
> > > > > well stop making the other packages because everybody would want
the
> > > > Rubicon
> > > > > instead of any other package. >>
> > > > >
> > > > > ....and thus many of those who are buying them in large measure
pay
> > the
> > > > > ridiculous premium, not to use the stuff, but because the rig is
> "hip"
> > > > right
> > > > > now and looks cool cruising. This is why veteran Jeepers think
> > > .....dare
> > > > I
> > > > > say it again, ..... it SUCKS!!!!
> > > > >
> > > > > See, I'd love to be able to order a std 4.0 TJ with the 4.10 D44's
> at
> > > both
> > > > > ends (actually, I'd prefer high pinions and a Rock D60 out back,
but
> > > stay
> > > > > with me) the lockers and the 4.1 xfer case...and that's it. Best
> > premium
> > > I
> > > > > should have to pay is, oh $2k, tops. I wouldn't even have to have
> the
> > > > > metallic pee-yellow paint or the decals on the hood. (See all the
> > money
> > > DC
> > > > > could save?) But, they won't be this practical because they want
to
> > HOSE
> > > > > everyone that considers themselves enthusiast enough to want one,
> and
> > we
> > > > > think (...... dare I say it AGAIN????) that SUCKS!!!!!
> > > > >
> > > > > Look, I'll take my $30 and build a custom rock CJ that I'll
treasure
> > > > forever
> > > > > before I'll give DC an equivalent amount for this kind of
nonsense.
> DC
> > > > ought
> > > > > to be worried about that, 'cuz I own, not only 3 Jeeps, but an MB
as
> > > well.
> > > > > They just might want me to buy another one, don't you think?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vkl6im3rhqefd6@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:vkl16s3idpg7a5@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > I didn't say the Rubicon sucked at all, quite the contrary. I
> said
> > > it
> > > > > was
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > great product, but that the mfr/dealer equation overpriced a
> > simple
> > > > set
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > upgrade options to the degree that the vehicle won't get
bought
> or
> > > > used
> > > > > by
> > > > > > > enthusiast Jeepers in a way it was intended.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Actually, you said it twice that I noticed, here is one
instance,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Frankly, there's getting to be a school of thought among
veteran
> > > > Jeepers
> > > > > > that the Rubicon simply SUCKS, mostly due to its owners. There
> must
> > ha
> > > ve
> > > > > > been 500 of the things at Moab last year and eventually everyone
> > > avoided
> > > > > > them like the plague. This months JP mag lists them among the 10
> > Jeeps
> > > > > they
> > > > > > wouldn't own.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Not that it's a bad rig out of the box, mind you, but Jeep FU'd
> the
> > > > entire
> > > > > > deal by pricing it so high that posers bought most of them, then
> the
> > > > > dealers
> > > > > > screwed it up even further by ordering them loaded to the max
with
> > > > stupid
> > > > > > options like power mirrors, A/C, etc., driving the price to $30k
> > plus.
> > > > > > That's right, $30k, and now I suppose you're going to take it
out
> on
> > > the
> > > > > > rocks? RIGHT!!!!!"
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And, being a veteran Jeeper, I take offense that you might
suggest
> > > that
> > > > I
> > > > > > think it sucks.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Look, the lockers are the only feature of the Rubicon's spec
> that
> > > are
> > > > > > > ADDITIONAL to a base TJ.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That, and the D44s that are an option in the back of a base
(Sport
> > > > > actually)
> > > > > > and not even available on the front on any other TJ. Then, there
> is
> > > the
> > > > > tire
> > > > > > package that delivers (are they 32s?) a tire option that is not
> > > > availabvle
> > > > > > on any other Jeep product. We already mentioned the lockers. Did
> you
> > > > > forget
> > > > > > the 4:1 transfer case? Yes, you forgot all about that. Let's
see,
> > > there
> > > > > are
> > > > > > 4.10 gears that are not available on any other model except the
> base
> > > > model
> > > > > 4
> > > > > > banger. You can't even get 4.10 gears on anything but a 4 cyl
> motor,
> > > no
> > > > > > mater what the trim level is.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That is, all TJs are 4wd, with xfer cases. Having
> > > > > > > worked over 25 years for auto mfrs I can say with authority
> > there's
> > > > only
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > minute, marginal cost difference between a D44 and either the
> D30
> > or
> > > > 35,
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > the 4.1 xfer case isn't much more costly than a base NV231
> either.
> > > The
> > > > > > only
> > > > > > > real added cost to the mfr is the locker/compressor combo, and
> > > that's
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > worth $5k.
> > > > > > > (You have to think in terms of what a manufacturer pays for
> > > > components,
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > what the consumer pays. The difference is enormous.)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Actually what you have to of is the relative value placed upon
> these
> > > > > > accessories by the expected customer base. I happen to think you
> are
> > > > > right,
> > > > > > it is a pricey option package, but if it was cheap, they might
as
> > well
> > > > > stop
> > > > > > making the other packages because everybody would want the
Rubicon
> > > > instead
> > > > > > of any other package.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dealers get into the act when they tart up the things with
> > > > > non-performance
> > > > > > > related "cruising" options (cd players, A/C, etc.) that cost
the
> > > > > consumer
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > bundle and are virtually worthless the minute the thing rolls
> off
> > > the
> > > > > lot,
> > > > > > > and add on another $2k for "additional dealer profit" and the
> > goose
> > > is
> > > > > > > cooked..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I agree, but you made the specific statement, twice, that the
> > Rubicon
> > > > > > "SUCKS" (you even used all caps as if to make a particular
point),
> > but
> > > > the
> > > > > > only thing you have said that even remotely sucks is that it
costs
> > > more
> > > > > than
> > > > > > you are willing to pay, and you can't buy a stripped Rubicon in
an
> > > > attempt
> > > > > > to avoid costly options that you don't want.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It takes more than a stupid pricing plan to make a vehicle
"SUCK".
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>