Re: Tomb Raider Rubicon
#21
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Tomb Raider Rubicon
I fail to see how the price and the relative suckiness have anything to do
with one another.
You have said twice how bad the Rubicon sucks, but your sole support to your
assertion is the price they get for some silly options. I want to know why
it sucks, not how poorly the accessory list is put together.
"Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
news:vkenruqvbsvi3e@corp.supernews.com...
> Ah, but one can come to the wrong assumptions in haste, can't one? I
> presently own three Jeeps and an MB E430 Sport. Price is not the issue, I
> can write check for one this morning, thank you.
>
> My point here, my overly sensitive Jeeping friends, is that the thing was
> priced unreasonably high given its content, then, due to its restricted
> production volume, the dealers did their usual opportunistic optioning and
> price gouging, luring many of those who bought them out of the "don't get
> it dirty it's just a hip car for cruising" crowd.
>
> Those of us who've spent a bundle to build our Jeeps just chuckle. Perhaps
> as they get out on the used market more will get into the hands of true
Jeep
> enthusiasts, right now the owner base seems to be more attuned the quality
> of the CD players than the performance of the 4.1 xfer case or the
lockers.
>
> There was absolutely no justification for the price premium Chrysler put
on
> the thing. The content's combined incremental build cost premium to
Chrysler
> can't be much more than $1000 over a D44 Sport. (They could have simply
made
> the axles, lockers and xfer case a check-off option.) Folks that ordered
> them from larger metro-area dealerships complain about paying over-sticker
> premiums and having to take them with silly options they didn't order,
want
> or need (yes, power mirrors ARE an option on the Rubicon), or finding out
> once they arrived that the dealer had peppered the things with glass tint,
> mud guards, stone shields, etc. Some dealers then told the buyer who
ordered
> them to "take it or leave it". Typical car dealer BS. Our local dealer was
> merciful and sold them at sticker.
>
> Sorry if I offended any enthusiast Rubicon owners out there, was not my
> intent and I should have been more specific. It's a great product, just
> riles many of us who loathe the way manufacturers and dealers take
advantage
> of consumers.
>
> ...but, Earle DOES live in God's country and we're heading that way this
AM!
>
> "Earle Horton" <enfermero_diabolico@registerednurses.com> wrote in message
> news:bi6msk$5inl2$1@ID-147790.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > news:vkdgi0pkuncte3@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Frankly, there's getting to be a school of thought among veteran
> > > Jeepers that the Rubicon simply SUCKS, mostly due to its owners.
> > > There must have been 500 of the things at Moab last year and
> > > eventually everyone avoided them like the plague. This months JP
> > > mag lists them among the 10 Jeeps they wouldn't own.
> > > ...
> >
> > A FAMISHED FOX saw some clusters of ripe black grapes hanging from a
> > trellised vine. She resorted to all her tricks to get at them, but
wearied
> > herself in vain, for she could not reach them. At last she turned away,
> > hiding her disappointment and saying: "The Grapes are sour, and not ripe
> as
> > I thought."
> >
> > --Aesop, pretty darn smart Ancient Greek
> >
> > Earle
> >
> >
>
>
with one another.
You have said twice how bad the Rubicon sucks, but your sole support to your
assertion is the price they get for some silly options. I want to know why
it sucks, not how poorly the accessory list is put together.
"Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
news:vkenruqvbsvi3e@corp.supernews.com...
> Ah, but one can come to the wrong assumptions in haste, can't one? I
> presently own three Jeeps and an MB E430 Sport. Price is not the issue, I
> can write check for one this morning, thank you.
>
> My point here, my overly sensitive Jeeping friends, is that the thing was
> priced unreasonably high given its content, then, due to its restricted
> production volume, the dealers did their usual opportunistic optioning and
> price gouging, luring many of those who bought them out of the "don't get
> it dirty it's just a hip car for cruising" crowd.
>
> Those of us who've spent a bundle to build our Jeeps just chuckle. Perhaps
> as they get out on the used market more will get into the hands of true
Jeep
> enthusiasts, right now the owner base seems to be more attuned the quality
> of the CD players than the performance of the 4.1 xfer case or the
lockers.
>
> There was absolutely no justification for the price premium Chrysler put
on
> the thing. The content's combined incremental build cost premium to
Chrysler
> can't be much more than $1000 over a D44 Sport. (They could have simply
made
> the axles, lockers and xfer case a check-off option.) Folks that ordered
> them from larger metro-area dealerships complain about paying over-sticker
> premiums and having to take them with silly options they didn't order,
want
> or need (yes, power mirrors ARE an option on the Rubicon), or finding out
> once they arrived that the dealer had peppered the things with glass tint,
> mud guards, stone shields, etc. Some dealers then told the buyer who
ordered
> them to "take it or leave it". Typical car dealer BS. Our local dealer was
> merciful and sold them at sticker.
>
> Sorry if I offended any enthusiast Rubicon owners out there, was not my
> intent and I should have been more specific. It's a great product, just
> riles many of us who loathe the way manufacturers and dealers take
advantage
> of consumers.
>
> ...but, Earle DOES live in God's country and we're heading that way this
AM!
>
> "Earle Horton" <enfermero_diabolico@registerednurses.com> wrote in message
> news:bi6msk$5inl2$1@ID-147790.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > news:vkdgi0pkuncte3@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Frankly, there's getting to be a school of thought among veteran
> > > Jeepers that the Rubicon simply SUCKS, mostly due to its owners.
> > > There must have been 500 of the things at Moab last year and
> > > eventually everyone avoided them like the plague. This months JP
> > > mag lists them among the 10 Jeeps they wouldn't own.
> > > ...
> >
> > A FAMISHED FOX saw some clusters of ripe black grapes hanging from a
> > trellised vine. She resorted to all her tricks to get at them, but
wearied
> > herself in vain, for she could not reach them. At last she turned away,
> > hiding her disappointment and saying: "The Grapes are sour, and not ripe
> as
> > I thought."
> >
> > --Aesop, pretty darn smart Ancient Greek
> >
> > Earle
> >
> >
>
>
#22
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Tomb Raider Rubicon
You aren't the one that has repeatedly said the Rubi sucks.
"TJim" <jim@ranlet.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Ll6dnco8ZOAE69eiU-KYvA@comcast.com...
> 1. I don't think the rubi sucks. I'd love to have one, myself, but I'd
have
> to sell both my jeeps.
> 2. a fixed relative suckiness at a higher relative price has a higher
> apparent suckiness, and the same fixed relative suckiness at a lower
> relative price has a lower apparent suckiness.
> 3. if a vacuum cleaner "sucks", that's a good thing, right?
> 4. if your date... oh, never mind...
>
> "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:vkkpn7ec2ift2b@corp.supernews.com...
> > I fail to see how the price and the relative suckiness have anything to
do
> > with one another.
> >
> > You have said twice how bad the Rubicon sucks, but your sole support to
> your
> > assertion is the price they get for some silly options. I want to know
why
> > it sucks, not how poorly the accessory list is put together.
> >
> >
> >
> > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > news:vkenruqvbsvi3e@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Ah, but one can come to the wrong assumptions in haste, can't one? I
> > > presently own three Jeeps and an MB E430 Sport. Price is not the
issue,
> I
> > > can write check for one this morning, thank you.
> > >
> > > My point here, my overly sensitive Jeeping friends, is that the thing
> was
> > > priced unreasonably high given its content, then, due to its
restricted
> > > production volume, the dealers did their usual opportunistic optioning
> and
> > > price gouging, luring many of those who bought them out of the "don't
> get
> > > it dirty it's just a hip car for cruising" crowd.
> > >
> > > Those of us who've spent a bundle to build our Jeeps just chuckle.
> Perhaps
> > > as they get out on the used market more will get into the hands of
true
> > Jeep
> > > enthusiasts, right now the owner base seems to be more attuned the
> quality
> > > of the CD players than the performance of the 4.1 xfer case or the
> > lockers.
> > >
> > > There was absolutely no justification for the price premium Chrysler
put
> > on
> > > the thing. The content's combined incremental build cost premium to
> > Chrysler
> > > can't be much more than $1000 over a D44 Sport. (They could have
simply
> > made
> > > the axles, lockers and xfer case a check-off option.) Folks that
ordered
> > > them from larger metro-area dealerships complain about paying
> over-sticker
> > > premiums and having to take them with silly options they didn't
order,
> > want
> > > or need (yes, power mirrors ARE an option on the Rubicon), or finding
> out
> > > once they arrived that the dealer had peppered the things with glass
> tint,
> > > mud guards, stone shields, etc. Some dealers then told the buyer who
> > ordered
> > > them to "take it or leave it". Typical car dealer BS. Our local dealer
> was
> > > merciful and sold them at sticker.
> > >
> > > Sorry if I offended any enthusiast Rubicon owners out there, was not
my
> > > intent and I should have been more specific. It's a great product,
just
> > > riles many of us who loathe the way manufacturers and dealers take
> > advantage
> > > of consumers.
> > >
> > > ...but, Earle DOES live in God's country and we're heading that way
this
> > AM!
> > >
> > > "Earle Horton" <enfermero_diabolico@registerednurses.com> wrote in
> message
> > > news:bi6msk$5inl2$1@ID-147790.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > > > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:vkdgi0pkuncte3@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Frankly, there's getting to be a school of thought among veteran
> > > > > Jeepers that the Rubicon simply SUCKS, mostly due to its owners.
> > > > > There must have been 500 of the things at Moab last year and
> > > > > eventually everyone avoided them like the plague. This months JP
> > > > > mag lists them among the 10 Jeeps they wouldn't own.
> > > > > ...
> > > >
> > > > A FAMISHED FOX saw some clusters of ripe black grapes hanging from a
> > > > trellised vine. She resorted to all her tricks to get at them, but
> > wearied
> > > > herself in vain, for she could not reach them. At last she turned
> away,
> > > > hiding her disappointment and saying: "The Grapes are sour, and not
> ripe
> > > as
> > > > I thought."
> > > >
> > > > --Aesop, pretty darn smart Ancient Greek
> > > >
> > > > Earle
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
"TJim" <jim@ranlet.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Ll6dnco8ZOAE69eiU-KYvA@comcast.com...
> 1. I don't think the rubi sucks. I'd love to have one, myself, but I'd
have
> to sell both my jeeps.
> 2. a fixed relative suckiness at a higher relative price has a higher
> apparent suckiness, and the same fixed relative suckiness at a lower
> relative price has a lower apparent suckiness.
> 3. if a vacuum cleaner "sucks", that's a good thing, right?
> 4. if your date... oh, never mind...
>
> "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:vkkpn7ec2ift2b@corp.supernews.com...
> > I fail to see how the price and the relative suckiness have anything to
do
> > with one another.
> >
> > You have said twice how bad the Rubicon sucks, but your sole support to
> your
> > assertion is the price they get for some silly options. I want to know
why
> > it sucks, not how poorly the accessory list is put together.
> >
> >
> >
> > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > news:vkenruqvbsvi3e@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Ah, but one can come to the wrong assumptions in haste, can't one? I
> > > presently own three Jeeps and an MB E430 Sport. Price is not the
issue,
> I
> > > can write check for one this morning, thank you.
> > >
> > > My point here, my overly sensitive Jeeping friends, is that the thing
> was
> > > priced unreasonably high given its content, then, due to its
restricted
> > > production volume, the dealers did their usual opportunistic optioning
> and
> > > price gouging, luring many of those who bought them out of the "don't
> get
> > > it dirty it's just a hip car for cruising" crowd.
> > >
> > > Those of us who've spent a bundle to build our Jeeps just chuckle.
> Perhaps
> > > as they get out on the used market more will get into the hands of
true
> > Jeep
> > > enthusiasts, right now the owner base seems to be more attuned the
> quality
> > > of the CD players than the performance of the 4.1 xfer case or the
> > lockers.
> > >
> > > There was absolutely no justification for the price premium Chrysler
put
> > on
> > > the thing. The content's combined incremental build cost premium to
> > Chrysler
> > > can't be much more than $1000 over a D44 Sport. (They could have
simply
> > made
> > > the axles, lockers and xfer case a check-off option.) Folks that
ordered
> > > them from larger metro-area dealerships complain about paying
> over-sticker
> > > premiums and having to take them with silly options they didn't
order,
> > want
> > > or need (yes, power mirrors ARE an option on the Rubicon), or finding
> out
> > > once they arrived that the dealer had peppered the things with glass
> tint,
> > > mud guards, stone shields, etc. Some dealers then told the buyer who
> > ordered
> > > them to "take it or leave it". Typical car dealer BS. Our local dealer
> was
> > > merciful and sold them at sticker.
> > >
> > > Sorry if I offended any enthusiast Rubicon owners out there, was not
my
> > > intent and I should have been more specific. It's a great product,
just
> > > riles many of us who loathe the way manufacturers and dealers take
> > advantage
> > > of consumers.
> > >
> > > ...but, Earle DOES live in God's country and we're heading that way
this
> > AM!
> > >
> > > "Earle Horton" <enfermero_diabolico@registerednurses.com> wrote in
> message
> > > news:bi6msk$5inl2$1@ID-147790.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > > > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:vkdgi0pkuncte3@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Frankly, there's getting to be a school of thought among veteran
> > > > > Jeepers that the Rubicon simply SUCKS, mostly due to its owners.
> > > > > There must have been 500 of the things at Moab last year and
> > > > > eventually everyone avoided them like the plague. This months JP
> > > > > mag lists them among the 10 Jeeps they wouldn't own.
> > > > > ...
> > > >
> > > > A FAMISHED FOX saw some clusters of ripe black grapes hanging from a
> > > > trellised vine. She resorted to all her tricks to get at them, but
> > wearied
> > > > herself in vain, for she could not reach them. At last she turned
> away,
> > > > hiding her disappointment and saying: "The Grapes are sour, and not
> ripe
> > > as
> > > > I thought."
> > > >
> > > > --Aesop, pretty darn smart Ancient Greek
> > > >
> > > > Earle
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
#23
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Tomb Raider Rubicon
You aren't the one that has repeatedly said the Rubi sucks.
"TJim" <jim@ranlet.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Ll6dnco8ZOAE69eiU-KYvA@comcast.com...
> 1. I don't think the rubi sucks. I'd love to have one, myself, but I'd
have
> to sell both my jeeps.
> 2. a fixed relative suckiness at a higher relative price has a higher
> apparent suckiness, and the same fixed relative suckiness at a lower
> relative price has a lower apparent suckiness.
> 3. if a vacuum cleaner "sucks", that's a good thing, right?
> 4. if your date... oh, never mind...
>
> "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:vkkpn7ec2ift2b@corp.supernews.com...
> > I fail to see how the price and the relative suckiness have anything to
do
> > with one another.
> >
> > You have said twice how bad the Rubicon sucks, but your sole support to
> your
> > assertion is the price they get for some silly options. I want to know
why
> > it sucks, not how poorly the accessory list is put together.
> >
> >
> >
> > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > news:vkenruqvbsvi3e@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Ah, but one can come to the wrong assumptions in haste, can't one? I
> > > presently own three Jeeps and an MB E430 Sport. Price is not the
issue,
> I
> > > can write check for one this morning, thank you.
> > >
> > > My point here, my overly sensitive Jeeping friends, is that the thing
> was
> > > priced unreasonably high given its content, then, due to its
restricted
> > > production volume, the dealers did their usual opportunistic optioning
> and
> > > price gouging, luring many of those who bought them out of the "don't
> get
> > > it dirty it's just a hip car for cruising" crowd.
> > >
> > > Those of us who've spent a bundle to build our Jeeps just chuckle.
> Perhaps
> > > as they get out on the used market more will get into the hands of
true
> > Jeep
> > > enthusiasts, right now the owner base seems to be more attuned the
> quality
> > > of the CD players than the performance of the 4.1 xfer case or the
> > lockers.
> > >
> > > There was absolutely no justification for the price premium Chrysler
put
> > on
> > > the thing. The content's combined incremental build cost premium to
> > Chrysler
> > > can't be much more than $1000 over a D44 Sport. (They could have
simply
> > made
> > > the axles, lockers and xfer case a check-off option.) Folks that
ordered
> > > them from larger metro-area dealerships complain about paying
> over-sticker
> > > premiums and having to take them with silly options they didn't
order,
> > want
> > > or need (yes, power mirrors ARE an option on the Rubicon), or finding
> out
> > > once they arrived that the dealer had peppered the things with glass
> tint,
> > > mud guards, stone shields, etc. Some dealers then told the buyer who
> > ordered
> > > them to "take it or leave it". Typical car dealer BS. Our local dealer
> was
> > > merciful and sold them at sticker.
> > >
> > > Sorry if I offended any enthusiast Rubicon owners out there, was not
my
> > > intent and I should have been more specific. It's a great product,
just
> > > riles many of us who loathe the way manufacturers and dealers take
> > advantage
> > > of consumers.
> > >
> > > ...but, Earle DOES live in God's country and we're heading that way
this
> > AM!
> > >
> > > "Earle Horton" <enfermero_diabolico@registerednurses.com> wrote in
> message
> > > news:bi6msk$5inl2$1@ID-147790.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > > > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:vkdgi0pkuncte3@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Frankly, there's getting to be a school of thought among veteran
> > > > > Jeepers that the Rubicon simply SUCKS, mostly due to its owners.
> > > > > There must have been 500 of the things at Moab last year and
> > > > > eventually everyone avoided them like the plague. This months JP
> > > > > mag lists them among the 10 Jeeps they wouldn't own.
> > > > > ...
> > > >
> > > > A FAMISHED FOX saw some clusters of ripe black grapes hanging from a
> > > > trellised vine. She resorted to all her tricks to get at them, but
> > wearied
> > > > herself in vain, for she could not reach them. At last she turned
> away,
> > > > hiding her disappointment and saying: "The Grapes are sour, and not
> ripe
> > > as
> > > > I thought."
> > > >
> > > > --Aesop, pretty darn smart Ancient Greek
> > > >
> > > > Earle
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
"TJim" <jim@ranlet.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Ll6dnco8ZOAE69eiU-KYvA@comcast.com...
> 1. I don't think the rubi sucks. I'd love to have one, myself, but I'd
have
> to sell both my jeeps.
> 2. a fixed relative suckiness at a higher relative price has a higher
> apparent suckiness, and the same fixed relative suckiness at a lower
> relative price has a lower apparent suckiness.
> 3. if a vacuum cleaner "sucks", that's a good thing, right?
> 4. if your date... oh, never mind...
>
> "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:vkkpn7ec2ift2b@corp.supernews.com...
> > I fail to see how the price and the relative suckiness have anything to
do
> > with one another.
> >
> > You have said twice how bad the Rubicon sucks, but your sole support to
> your
> > assertion is the price they get for some silly options. I want to know
why
> > it sucks, not how poorly the accessory list is put together.
> >
> >
> >
> > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > news:vkenruqvbsvi3e@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Ah, but one can come to the wrong assumptions in haste, can't one? I
> > > presently own three Jeeps and an MB E430 Sport. Price is not the
issue,
> I
> > > can write check for one this morning, thank you.
> > >
> > > My point here, my overly sensitive Jeeping friends, is that the thing
> was
> > > priced unreasonably high given its content, then, due to its
restricted
> > > production volume, the dealers did their usual opportunistic optioning
> and
> > > price gouging, luring many of those who bought them out of the "don't
> get
> > > it dirty it's just a hip car for cruising" crowd.
> > >
> > > Those of us who've spent a bundle to build our Jeeps just chuckle.
> Perhaps
> > > as they get out on the used market more will get into the hands of
true
> > Jeep
> > > enthusiasts, right now the owner base seems to be more attuned the
> quality
> > > of the CD players than the performance of the 4.1 xfer case or the
> > lockers.
> > >
> > > There was absolutely no justification for the price premium Chrysler
put
> > on
> > > the thing. The content's combined incremental build cost premium to
> > Chrysler
> > > can't be much more than $1000 over a D44 Sport. (They could have
simply
> > made
> > > the axles, lockers and xfer case a check-off option.) Folks that
ordered
> > > them from larger metro-area dealerships complain about paying
> over-sticker
> > > premiums and having to take them with silly options they didn't
order,
> > want
> > > or need (yes, power mirrors ARE an option on the Rubicon), or finding
> out
> > > once they arrived that the dealer had peppered the things with glass
> tint,
> > > mud guards, stone shields, etc. Some dealers then told the buyer who
> > ordered
> > > them to "take it or leave it". Typical car dealer BS. Our local dealer
> was
> > > merciful and sold them at sticker.
> > >
> > > Sorry if I offended any enthusiast Rubicon owners out there, was not
my
> > > intent and I should have been more specific. It's a great product,
just
> > > riles many of us who loathe the way manufacturers and dealers take
> > advantage
> > > of consumers.
> > >
> > > ...but, Earle DOES live in God's country and we're heading that way
this
> > AM!
> > >
> > > "Earle Horton" <enfermero_diabolico@registerednurses.com> wrote in
> message
> > > news:bi6msk$5inl2$1@ID-147790.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > > > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:vkdgi0pkuncte3@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Frankly, there's getting to be a school of thought among veteran
> > > > > Jeepers that the Rubicon simply SUCKS, mostly due to its owners.
> > > > > There must have been 500 of the things at Moab last year and
> > > > > eventually everyone avoided them like the plague. This months JP
> > > > > mag lists them among the 10 Jeeps they wouldn't own.
> > > > > ...
> > > >
> > > > A FAMISHED FOX saw some clusters of ripe black grapes hanging from a
> > > > trellised vine. She resorted to all her tricks to get at them, but
> > wearied
> > > > herself in vain, for she could not reach them. At last she turned
> away,
> > > > hiding her disappointment and saying: "The Grapes are sour, and not
> ripe
> > > as
> > > > I thought."
> > > >
> > > > --Aesop, pretty darn smart Ancient Greek
> > > >
> > > > Earle
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
#24
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Tomb Raider Rubicon
I didn't say the Rubicon sucked at all, quite the contrary. I said it was a
great product, but that the mfr/dealer equation overpriced a simple set of
upgrade options to the degree that the vehicle won't get bought or used by
enthusiast Jeepers in a way it was intended.
Look, the lockers are the only feature of the Rubicon's spec that are
ADDITIONAL to a base TJ. That is, all TJs are 4wd, with xfer cases. Having
worked over 25 years for auto mfrs I can say with authority there's only a
minute, marginal cost difference between a D44 and either the D30 or 35, and
the 4.1 xfer case isn't much more costly than a base NV231 either. The only
real added cost to the mfr is the locker/compressor combo, and that's not
worth $5k.
(You have to think in terms of what a manufacturer pays for components, not
what the consumer pays. The difference is enormous.)
Dealers get into the act when they tart up the things with non-performance
related "cruising" options (cd players, A/C, etc.) that cost the consumer a
bundle and are virtually worthless the minute the thing rolls off the lot,
and add on another $2k for "additional dealer profit" and the goose is
cooked..
"Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vkkpn7ec2ift2b@corp.supernews.com...
> I fail to see how the price and the relative suckiness have anything to do
> with one another.
>
> You have said twice how bad the Rubicon sucks, but your sole support to
your
> assertion is the price they get for some silly options. I want to know why
> it sucks, not how poorly the accessory list is put together.
>
>
>
> "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> news:vkenruqvbsvi3e@corp.supernews.com...
> > Ah, but one can come to the wrong assumptions in haste, can't one? I
> > presently own three Jeeps and an MB E430 Sport. Price is not the issue,
I
> > can write check for one this morning, thank you.
> >
> > My point here, my overly sensitive Jeeping friends, is that the thing
was
> > priced unreasonably high given its content, then, due to its restricted
> > production volume, the dealers did their usual opportunistic optioning
and
> > price gouging, luring many of those who bought them out of the "don't
get
> > it dirty it's just a hip car for cruising" crowd.
> >
> > Those of us who've spent a bundle to build our Jeeps just chuckle.
Perhaps
> > as they get out on the used market more will get into the hands of true
> Jeep
> > enthusiasts, right now the owner base seems to be more attuned the
quality
> > of the CD players than the performance of the 4.1 xfer case or the
> lockers.
> >
> > There was absolutely no justification for the price premium Chrysler put
> on
> > the thing. The content's combined incremental build cost premium to
> Chrysler
> > can't be much more than $1000 over a D44 Sport. (They could have simply
> made
> > the axles, lockers and xfer case a check-off option.) Folks that ordered
> > them from larger metro-area dealerships complain about paying
over-sticker
> > premiums and having to take them with silly options they didn't order,
> want
> > or need (yes, power mirrors ARE an option on the Rubicon), or finding
out
> > once they arrived that the dealer had peppered the things with glass
tint,
> > mud guards, stone shields, etc. Some dealers then told the buyer who
> ordered
> > them to "take it or leave it". Typical car dealer BS. Our local dealer
was
> > merciful and sold them at sticker.
> >
> > Sorry if I offended any enthusiast Rubicon owners out there, was not my
> > intent and I should have been more specific. It's a great product, just
> > riles many of us who loathe the way manufacturers and dealers take
> advantage
> > of consumers.
> >
> > ...but, Earle DOES live in God's country and we're heading that way this
> AM!
> >
> > "Earle Horton" <enfermero_diabolico@registerednurses.com> wrote in
message
> > news:bi6msk$5inl2$1@ID-147790.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > > news:vkdgi0pkuncte3@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Frankly, there's getting to be a school of thought among veteran
> > > > Jeepers that the Rubicon simply SUCKS, mostly due to its owners.
> > > > There must have been 500 of the things at Moab last year and
> > > > eventually everyone avoided them like the plague. This months JP
> > > > mag lists them among the 10 Jeeps they wouldn't own.
> > > > ...
> > >
> > > A FAMISHED FOX saw some clusters of ripe black grapes hanging from a
> > > trellised vine. She resorted to all her tricks to get at them, but
> wearied
> > > herself in vain, for she could not reach them. At last she turned
away,
> > > hiding her disappointment and saying: "The Grapes are sour, and not
ripe
> > as
> > > I thought."
> > >
> > > --Aesop, pretty darn smart Ancient Greek
> > >
> > > Earle
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
great product, but that the mfr/dealer equation overpriced a simple set of
upgrade options to the degree that the vehicle won't get bought or used by
enthusiast Jeepers in a way it was intended.
Look, the lockers are the only feature of the Rubicon's spec that are
ADDITIONAL to a base TJ. That is, all TJs are 4wd, with xfer cases. Having
worked over 25 years for auto mfrs I can say with authority there's only a
minute, marginal cost difference between a D44 and either the D30 or 35, and
the 4.1 xfer case isn't much more costly than a base NV231 either. The only
real added cost to the mfr is the locker/compressor combo, and that's not
worth $5k.
(You have to think in terms of what a manufacturer pays for components, not
what the consumer pays. The difference is enormous.)
Dealers get into the act when they tart up the things with non-performance
related "cruising" options (cd players, A/C, etc.) that cost the consumer a
bundle and are virtually worthless the minute the thing rolls off the lot,
and add on another $2k for "additional dealer profit" and the goose is
cooked..
"Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vkkpn7ec2ift2b@corp.supernews.com...
> I fail to see how the price and the relative suckiness have anything to do
> with one another.
>
> You have said twice how bad the Rubicon sucks, but your sole support to
your
> assertion is the price they get for some silly options. I want to know why
> it sucks, not how poorly the accessory list is put together.
>
>
>
> "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> news:vkenruqvbsvi3e@corp.supernews.com...
> > Ah, but one can come to the wrong assumptions in haste, can't one? I
> > presently own three Jeeps and an MB E430 Sport. Price is not the issue,
I
> > can write check for one this morning, thank you.
> >
> > My point here, my overly sensitive Jeeping friends, is that the thing
was
> > priced unreasonably high given its content, then, due to its restricted
> > production volume, the dealers did their usual opportunistic optioning
and
> > price gouging, luring many of those who bought them out of the "don't
get
> > it dirty it's just a hip car for cruising" crowd.
> >
> > Those of us who've spent a bundle to build our Jeeps just chuckle.
Perhaps
> > as they get out on the used market more will get into the hands of true
> Jeep
> > enthusiasts, right now the owner base seems to be more attuned the
quality
> > of the CD players than the performance of the 4.1 xfer case or the
> lockers.
> >
> > There was absolutely no justification for the price premium Chrysler put
> on
> > the thing. The content's combined incremental build cost premium to
> Chrysler
> > can't be much more than $1000 over a D44 Sport. (They could have simply
> made
> > the axles, lockers and xfer case a check-off option.) Folks that ordered
> > them from larger metro-area dealerships complain about paying
over-sticker
> > premiums and having to take them with silly options they didn't order,
> want
> > or need (yes, power mirrors ARE an option on the Rubicon), or finding
out
> > once they arrived that the dealer had peppered the things with glass
tint,
> > mud guards, stone shields, etc. Some dealers then told the buyer who
> ordered
> > them to "take it or leave it". Typical car dealer BS. Our local dealer
was
> > merciful and sold them at sticker.
> >
> > Sorry if I offended any enthusiast Rubicon owners out there, was not my
> > intent and I should have been more specific. It's a great product, just
> > riles many of us who loathe the way manufacturers and dealers take
> advantage
> > of consumers.
> >
> > ...but, Earle DOES live in God's country and we're heading that way this
> AM!
> >
> > "Earle Horton" <enfermero_diabolico@registerednurses.com> wrote in
message
> > news:bi6msk$5inl2$1@ID-147790.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > > news:vkdgi0pkuncte3@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Frankly, there's getting to be a school of thought among veteran
> > > > Jeepers that the Rubicon simply SUCKS, mostly due to its owners.
> > > > There must have been 500 of the things at Moab last year and
> > > > eventually everyone avoided them like the plague. This months JP
> > > > mag lists them among the 10 Jeeps they wouldn't own.
> > > > ...
> > >
> > > A FAMISHED FOX saw some clusters of ripe black grapes hanging from a
> > > trellised vine. She resorted to all her tricks to get at them, but
> wearied
> > > herself in vain, for she could not reach them. At last she turned
away,
> > > hiding her disappointment and saying: "The Grapes are sour, and not
ripe
> > as
> > > I thought."
> > >
> > > --Aesop, pretty darn smart Ancient Greek
> > >
> > > Earle
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
#25
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Tomb Raider Rubicon
I didn't say the Rubicon sucked at all, quite the contrary. I said it was a
great product, but that the mfr/dealer equation overpriced a simple set of
upgrade options to the degree that the vehicle won't get bought or used by
enthusiast Jeepers in a way it was intended.
Look, the lockers are the only feature of the Rubicon's spec that are
ADDITIONAL to a base TJ. That is, all TJs are 4wd, with xfer cases. Having
worked over 25 years for auto mfrs I can say with authority there's only a
minute, marginal cost difference between a D44 and either the D30 or 35, and
the 4.1 xfer case isn't much more costly than a base NV231 either. The only
real added cost to the mfr is the locker/compressor combo, and that's not
worth $5k.
(You have to think in terms of what a manufacturer pays for components, not
what the consumer pays. The difference is enormous.)
Dealers get into the act when they tart up the things with non-performance
related "cruising" options (cd players, A/C, etc.) that cost the consumer a
bundle and are virtually worthless the minute the thing rolls off the lot,
and add on another $2k for "additional dealer profit" and the goose is
cooked..
"Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vkkpn7ec2ift2b@corp.supernews.com...
> I fail to see how the price and the relative suckiness have anything to do
> with one another.
>
> You have said twice how bad the Rubicon sucks, but your sole support to
your
> assertion is the price they get for some silly options. I want to know why
> it sucks, not how poorly the accessory list is put together.
>
>
>
> "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> news:vkenruqvbsvi3e@corp.supernews.com...
> > Ah, but one can come to the wrong assumptions in haste, can't one? I
> > presently own three Jeeps and an MB E430 Sport. Price is not the issue,
I
> > can write check for one this morning, thank you.
> >
> > My point here, my overly sensitive Jeeping friends, is that the thing
was
> > priced unreasonably high given its content, then, due to its restricted
> > production volume, the dealers did their usual opportunistic optioning
and
> > price gouging, luring many of those who bought them out of the "don't
get
> > it dirty it's just a hip car for cruising" crowd.
> >
> > Those of us who've spent a bundle to build our Jeeps just chuckle.
Perhaps
> > as they get out on the used market more will get into the hands of true
> Jeep
> > enthusiasts, right now the owner base seems to be more attuned the
quality
> > of the CD players than the performance of the 4.1 xfer case or the
> lockers.
> >
> > There was absolutely no justification for the price premium Chrysler put
> on
> > the thing. The content's combined incremental build cost premium to
> Chrysler
> > can't be much more than $1000 over a D44 Sport. (They could have simply
> made
> > the axles, lockers and xfer case a check-off option.) Folks that ordered
> > them from larger metro-area dealerships complain about paying
over-sticker
> > premiums and having to take them with silly options they didn't order,
> want
> > or need (yes, power mirrors ARE an option on the Rubicon), or finding
out
> > once they arrived that the dealer had peppered the things with glass
tint,
> > mud guards, stone shields, etc. Some dealers then told the buyer who
> ordered
> > them to "take it or leave it". Typical car dealer BS. Our local dealer
was
> > merciful and sold them at sticker.
> >
> > Sorry if I offended any enthusiast Rubicon owners out there, was not my
> > intent and I should have been more specific. It's a great product, just
> > riles many of us who loathe the way manufacturers and dealers take
> advantage
> > of consumers.
> >
> > ...but, Earle DOES live in God's country and we're heading that way this
> AM!
> >
> > "Earle Horton" <enfermero_diabolico@registerednurses.com> wrote in
message
> > news:bi6msk$5inl2$1@ID-147790.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > > news:vkdgi0pkuncte3@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Frankly, there's getting to be a school of thought among veteran
> > > > Jeepers that the Rubicon simply SUCKS, mostly due to its owners.
> > > > There must have been 500 of the things at Moab last year and
> > > > eventually everyone avoided them like the plague. This months JP
> > > > mag lists them among the 10 Jeeps they wouldn't own.
> > > > ...
> > >
> > > A FAMISHED FOX saw some clusters of ripe black grapes hanging from a
> > > trellised vine. She resorted to all her tricks to get at them, but
> wearied
> > > herself in vain, for she could not reach them. At last she turned
away,
> > > hiding her disappointment and saying: "The Grapes are sour, and not
ripe
> > as
> > > I thought."
> > >
> > > --Aesop, pretty darn smart Ancient Greek
> > >
> > > Earle
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
great product, but that the mfr/dealer equation overpriced a simple set of
upgrade options to the degree that the vehicle won't get bought or used by
enthusiast Jeepers in a way it was intended.
Look, the lockers are the only feature of the Rubicon's spec that are
ADDITIONAL to a base TJ. That is, all TJs are 4wd, with xfer cases. Having
worked over 25 years for auto mfrs I can say with authority there's only a
minute, marginal cost difference between a D44 and either the D30 or 35, and
the 4.1 xfer case isn't much more costly than a base NV231 either. The only
real added cost to the mfr is the locker/compressor combo, and that's not
worth $5k.
(You have to think in terms of what a manufacturer pays for components, not
what the consumer pays. The difference is enormous.)
Dealers get into the act when they tart up the things with non-performance
related "cruising" options (cd players, A/C, etc.) that cost the consumer a
bundle and are virtually worthless the minute the thing rolls off the lot,
and add on another $2k for "additional dealer profit" and the goose is
cooked..
"Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vkkpn7ec2ift2b@corp.supernews.com...
> I fail to see how the price and the relative suckiness have anything to do
> with one another.
>
> You have said twice how bad the Rubicon sucks, but your sole support to
your
> assertion is the price they get for some silly options. I want to know why
> it sucks, not how poorly the accessory list is put together.
>
>
>
> "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> news:vkenruqvbsvi3e@corp.supernews.com...
> > Ah, but one can come to the wrong assumptions in haste, can't one? I
> > presently own three Jeeps and an MB E430 Sport. Price is not the issue,
I
> > can write check for one this morning, thank you.
> >
> > My point here, my overly sensitive Jeeping friends, is that the thing
was
> > priced unreasonably high given its content, then, due to its restricted
> > production volume, the dealers did their usual opportunistic optioning
and
> > price gouging, luring many of those who bought them out of the "don't
get
> > it dirty it's just a hip car for cruising" crowd.
> >
> > Those of us who've spent a bundle to build our Jeeps just chuckle.
Perhaps
> > as they get out on the used market more will get into the hands of true
> Jeep
> > enthusiasts, right now the owner base seems to be more attuned the
quality
> > of the CD players than the performance of the 4.1 xfer case or the
> lockers.
> >
> > There was absolutely no justification for the price premium Chrysler put
> on
> > the thing. The content's combined incremental build cost premium to
> Chrysler
> > can't be much more than $1000 over a D44 Sport. (They could have simply
> made
> > the axles, lockers and xfer case a check-off option.) Folks that ordered
> > them from larger metro-area dealerships complain about paying
over-sticker
> > premiums and having to take them with silly options they didn't order,
> want
> > or need (yes, power mirrors ARE an option on the Rubicon), or finding
out
> > once they arrived that the dealer had peppered the things with glass
tint,
> > mud guards, stone shields, etc. Some dealers then told the buyer who
> ordered
> > them to "take it or leave it". Typical car dealer BS. Our local dealer
was
> > merciful and sold them at sticker.
> >
> > Sorry if I offended any enthusiast Rubicon owners out there, was not my
> > intent and I should have been more specific. It's a great product, just
> > riles many of us who loathe the way manufacturers and dealers take
> advantage
> > of consumers.
> >
> > ...but, Earle DOES live in God's country and we're heading that way this
> AM!
> >
> > "Earle Horton" <enfermero_diabolico@registerednurses.com> wrote in
message
> > news:bi6msk$5inl2$1@ID-147790.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > > news:vkdgi0pkuncte3@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Frankly, there's getting to be a school of thought among veteran
> > > > Jeepers that the Rubicon simply SUCKS, mostly due to its owners.
> > > > There must have been 500 of the things at Moab last year and
> > > > eventually everyone avoided them like the plague. This months JP
> > > > mag lists them among the 10 Jeeps they wouldn't own.
> > > > ...
> > >
> > > A FAMISHED FOX saw some clusters of ripe black grapes hanging from a
> > > trellised vine. She resorted to all her tricks to get at them, but
> wearied
> > > herself in vain, for she could not reach them. At last she turned
away,
> > > hiding her disappointment and saying: "The Grapes are sour, and not
ripe
> > as
> > > I thought."
> > >
> > > --Aesop, pretty darn smart Ancient Greek
> > >
> > > Earle
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
#26
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Tomb Raider Rubicon
"Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
news:vkl16s3idpg7a5@corp.supernews.com...
> I didn't say the Rubicon sucked at all, quite the contrary. I said it was
a
> great product, but that the mfr/dealer equation overpriced a simple set of
> upgrade options to the degree that the vehicle won't get bought or used by
> enthusiast Jeepers in a way it was intended.
>
Actually, you said it twice that I noticed, here is one instance,
"Frankly, there's getting to be a school of thought among veteran Jeepers
that the Rubicon simply SUCKS, mostly due to its owners. There must have
been 500 of the things at Moab last year and eventually everyone avoided
them like the plague. This months JP mag lists them among the 10 Jeeps they
wouldn't own.
Not that it's a bad rig out of the box, mind you, but Jeep FU'd the entire
deal by pricing it so high that posers bought most of them, then the dealers
screwed it up even further by ordering them loaded to the max with stupid
options like power mirrors, A/C, etc., driving the price to $30k plus.
That's right, $30k, and now I suppose you're going to take it out on the
rocks? RIGHT!!!!!"
And, being a veteran Jeeper, I take offense that you might suggest that I
think it sucks.
> Look, the lockers are the only feature of the Rubicon's spec that are
> ADDITIONAL to a base TJ.
That, and the D44s that are an option in the back of a base (Sport actually)
and not even available on the front on any other TJ. Then, there is the tire
package that delivers (are they 32s?) a tire option that is not availabvle
on any other Jeep product. We already mentioned the lockers. Did you forget
the 4:1 transfer case? Yes, you forgot all about that. Let's see, there are
4.10 gears that are not available on any other model except the base model 4
banger. You can't even get 4.10 gears on anything but a 4 cyl motor, no
mater what the trim level is.
That is, all TJs are 4wd, with xfer cases. Having
> worked over 25 years for auto mfrs I can say with authority there's only a
> minute, marginal cost difference between a D44 and either the D30 or 35,
and
> the 4.1 xfer case isn't much more costly than a base NV231 either. The
only
> real added cost to the mfr is the locker/compressor combo, and that's not
> worth $5k.
> (You have to think in terms of what a manufacturer pays for components,
not
> what the consumer pays. The difference is enormous.)
>
Actually what you have to of is the relative value placed upon these
accessories by the expected customer base. I happen to think you are right,
it is a pricey option package, but if it was cheap, they might as well stop
making the other packages because everybody would want the Rubicon instead
of any other package.
> Dealers get into the act when they tart up the things with non-performance
> related "cruising" options (cd players, A/C, etc.) that cost the consumer
a
> bundle and are virtually worthless the minute the thing rolls off the lot,
> and add on another $2k for "additional dealer profit" and the goose is
> cooked..
>
I agree, but you made the specific statement, twice, that the Rubicon
"SUCKS" (you even used all caps as if to make a particular point), but the
only thing you have said that even remotely sucks is that it costs more than
you are willing to pay, and you can't buy a stripped Rubicon in an attempt
to avoid costly options that you don't want.
It takes more than a stupid pricing plan to make a vehicle "SUCK".
#27
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Tomb Raider Rubicon
"Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
news:vkl16s3idpg7a5@corp.supernews.com...
> I didn't say the Rubicon sucked at all, quite the contrary. I said it was
a
> great product, but that the mfr/dealer equation overpriced a simple set of
> upgrade options to the degree that the vehicle won't get bought or used by
> enthusiast Jeepers in a way it was intended.
>
Actually, you said it twice that I noticed, here is one instance,
"Frankly, there's getting to be a school of thought among veteran Jeepers
that the Rubicon simply SUCKS, mostly due to its owners. There must have
been 500 of the things at Moab last year and eventually everyone avoided
them like the plague. This months JP mag lists them among the 10 Jeeps they
wouldn't own.
Not that it's a bad rig out of the box, mind you, but Jeep FU'd the entire
deal by pricing it so high that posers bought most of them, then the dealers
screwed it up even further by ordering them loaded to the max with stupid
options like power mirrors, A/C, etc., driving the price to $30k plus.
That's right, $30k, and now I suppose you're going to take it out on the
rocks? RIGHT!!!!!"
And, being a veteran Jeeper, I take offense that you might suggest that I
think it sucks.
> Look, the lockers are the only feature of the Rubicon's spec that are
> ADDITIONAL to a base TJ.
That, and the D44s that are an option in the back of a base (Sport actually)
and not even available on the front on any other TJ. Then, there is the tire
package that delivers (are they 32s?) a tire option that is not availabvle
on any other Jeep product. We already mentioned the lockers. Did you forget
the 4:1 transfer case? Yes, you forgot all about that. Let's see, there are
4.10 gears that are not available on any other model except the base model 4
banger. You can't even get 4.10 gears on anything but a 4 cyl motor, no
mater what the trim level is.
That is, all TJs are 4wd, with xfer cases. Having
> worked over 25 years for auto mfrs I can say with authority there's only a
> minute, marginal cost difference between a D44 and either the D30 or 35,
and
> the 4.1 xfer case isn't much more costly than a base NV231 either. The
only
> real added cost to the mfr is the locker/compressor combo, and that's not
> worth $5k.
> (You have to think in terms of what a manufacturer pays for components,
not
> what the consumer pays. The difference is enormous.)
>
Actually what you have to of is the relative value placed upon these
accessories by the expected customer base. I happen to think you are right,
it is a pricey option package, but if it was cheap, they might as well stop
making the other packages because everybody would want the Rubicon instead
of any other package.
> Dealers get into the act when they tart up the things with non-performance
> related "cruising" options (cd players, A/C, etc.) that cost the consumer
a
> bundle and are virtually worthless the minute the thing rolls off the lot,
> and add on another $2k for "additional dealer profit" and the goose is
> cooked..
>
I agree, but you made the specific statement, twice, that the Rubicon
"SUCKS" (you even used all caps as if to make a particular point), but the
only thing you have said that even remotely sucks is that it costs more than
you are willing to pay, and you can't buy a stripped Rubicon in an attempt
to avoid costly options that you don't want.
It takes more than a stupid pricing plan to make a vehicle "SUCK".
#28
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Tomb Raider Rubicon
You're not catching on yet and it's clear you responded before you read what
I had to say:
Again, the thing is only an UPGRADE of standard spec items, the collective,
incremental cost of which is marginal to DC, and yes, they frankly could
just up the spec on all of them to Rubicon level, raise the price marginally
and sell a jillion of them. But they won't, 'cuz they're greedy,
short-sighted, bean-counting bastards.
The cost difference between a D44 & a D30 or D35 is negligible, not even a
fraction of the $600 they charge for the rear axle upgrade on a std TJ. The
cost diff between the std wheels & tires and the Rubicon's 16" Goodyear MTRs
is also negligible at the mfr level, and there is NO cost difference between
3.07 gears and 4.10s. There's virtually no cost difference between a 2.72
NV231 and the Rubicon's 4.1 box, etc. The only real incremental cost
increase to DC is for the lockers & its control unit. In short, paying $5k+
for the cost of the Rubicon's upgrades....IS A RIP!
<< Actually what you have to (sic) of is the relative value placed upon
these accessories by the expected customer base. I happen to think you are
right, it is a pricey option package, but if it was cheap, they might as
well stop making the other packages because everybody would want the Rubicon
instead of any other package. >>
.....and thus many of those who are buying them in large measure pay the
ridiculous premium, not to use the stuff, but because the rig is "hip" right
now and looks cool cruising. This is why veteran Jeepers think .....dare I
say it again, ..... it SUCKS!!!!
See, I'd love to be able to order a std 4.0 TJ with the 4.10 D44's at both
ends (actually, I'd prefer high pinions and a Rock D60 out back, but stay
with me) the lockers and the 4.1 xfer case...and that's it. Best premium I
should have to pay is, oh $2k, tops. I wouldn't even have to have the
metallic pee-yellow paint or the decals on the hood. (See all the money DC
could save?) But, they won't be this practical because they want to HOSE
everyone that considers themselves enthusiast enough to want one, and we
think (...... dare I say it AGAIN????) that SUCKS!!!!!
Look, I'll take my $30 and build a custom rock CJ that I'll treasure forever
before I'll give DC an equivalent amount for this kind of nonsense. DC ought
to be worried about that, 'cuz I own, not only 3 Jeeps, but an MB as well.
They just might want me to buy another one, don't you think?
"Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vkl6im3rhqefd6@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> news:vkl16s3idpg7a5@corp.supernews.com...
> > I didn't say the Rubicon sucked at all, quite the contrary. I said it
was
> a
> > great product, but that the mfr/dealer equation overpriced a simple set
of
> > upgrade options to the degree that the vehicle won't get bought or used
by
> > enthusiast Jeepers in a way it was intended.
> >
>
> Actually, you said it twice that I noticed, here is one instance,
>
> "Frankly, there's getting to be a school of thought among veteran Jeepers
> that the Rubicon simply SUCKS, mostly due to its owners. There must have
> been 500 of the things at Moab last year and eventually everyone avoided
> them like the plague. This months JP mag lists them among the 10 Jeeps
they
> wouldn't own.
>
> Not that it's a bad rig out of the box, mind you, but Jeep FU'd the entire
> deal by pricing it so high that posers bought most of them, then the
dealers
> screwed it up even further by ordering them loaded to the max with stupid
> options like power mirrors, A/C, etc., driving the price to $30k plus.
> That's right, $30k, and now I suppose you're going to take it out on the
> rocks? RIGHT!!!!!"
>
>
> And, being a veteran Jeeper, I take offense that you might suggest that I
> think it sucks.
>
>
>
>
> > Look, the lockers are the only feature of the Rubicon's spec that are
> > ADDITIONAL to a base TJ.
>
> That, and the D44s that are an option in the back of a base (Sport
actually)
> and not even available on the front on any other TJ. Then, there is the
tire
> package that delivers (are they 32s?) a tire option that is not availabvle
> on any other Jeep product. We already mentioned the lockers. Did you
forget
> the 4:1 transfer case? Yes, you forgot all about that. Let's see, there
are
> 4.10 gears that are not available on any other model except the base model
4
> banger. You can't even get 4.10 gears on anything but a 4 cyl motor, no
> mater what the trim level is.
>
>
>
> That is, all TJs are 4wd, with xfer cases. Having
> > worked over 25 years for auto mfrs I can say with authority there's only
a
> > minute, marginal cost difference between a D44 and either the D30 or 35,
> and
> > the 4.1 xfer case isn't much more costly than a base NV231 either. The
> only
> > real added cost to the mfr is the locker/compressor combo, and that's
not
> > worth $5k.
> > (You have to think in terms of what a manufacturer pays for components,
> not
> > what the consumer pays. The difference is enormous.)
> >
>
> Actually what you have to of is the relative value placed upon these
> accessories by the expected customer base. I happen to think you are
right,
> it is a pricey option package, but if it was cheap, they might as well
stop
> making the other packages because everybody would want the Rubicon instead
> of any other package.
>
>
>
> > Dealers get into the act when they tart up the things with
non-performance
> > related "cruising" options (cd players, A/C, etc.) that cost the
consumer
> a
> > bundle and are virtually worthless the minute the thing rolls off the
lot,
> > and add on another $2k for "additional dealer profit" and the goose is
> > cooked..
> >
>
> I agree, but you made the specific statement, twice, that the Rubicon
> "SUCKS" (you even used all caps as if to make a particular point), but the
> only thing you have said that even remotely sucks is that it costs more
than
> you are willing to pay, and you can't buy a stripped Rubicon in an attempt
> to avoid costly options that you don't want.
>
> It takes more than a stupid pricing plan to make a vehicle "SUCK".
>
>
>
>
I had to say:
Again, the thing is only an UPGRADE of standard spec items, the collective,
incremental cost of which is marginal to DC, and yes, they frankly could
just up the spec on all of them to Rubicon level, raise the price marginally
and sell a jillion of them. But they won't, 'cuz they're greedy,
short-sighted, bean-counting bastards.
The cost difference between a D44 & a D30 or D35 is negligible, not even a
fraction of the $600 they charge for the rear axle upgrade on a std TJ. The
cost diff between the std wheels & tires and the Rubicon's 16" Goodyear MTRs
is also negligible at the mfr level, and there is NO cost difference between
3.07 gears and 4.10s. There's virtually no cost difference between a 2.72
NV231 and the Rubicon's 4.1 box, etc. The only real incremental cost
increase to DC is for the lockers & its control unit. In short, paying $5k+
for the cost of the Rubicon's upgrades....IS A RIP!
<< Actually what you have to (sic) of is the relative value placed upon
these accessories by the expected customer base. I happen to think you are
right, it is a pricey option package, but if it was cheap, they might as
well stop making the other packages because everybody would want the Rubicon
instead of any other package. >>
.....and thus many of those who are buying them in large measure pay the
ridiculous premium, not to use the stuff, but because the rig is "hip" right
now and looks cool cruising. This is why veteran Jeepers think .....dare I
say it again, ..... it SUCKS!!!!
See, I'd love to be able to order a std 4.0 TJ with the 4.10 D44's at both
ends (actually, I'd prefer high pinions and a Rock D60 out back, but stay
with me) the lockers and the 4.1 xfer case...and that's it. Best premium I
should have to pay is, oh $2k, tops. I wouldn't even have to have the
metallic pee-yellow paint or the decals on the hood. (See all the money DC
could save?) But, they won't be this practical because they want to HOSE
everyone that considers themselves enthusiast enough to want one, and we
think (...... dare I say it AGAIN????) that SUCKS!!!!!
Look, I'll take my $30 and build a custom rock CJ that I'll treasure forever
before I'll give DC an equivalent amount for this kind of nonsense. DC ought
to be worried about that, 'cuz I own, not only 3 Jeeps, but an MB as well.
They just might want me to buy another one, don't you think?
"Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vkl6im3rhqefd6@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> news:vkl16s3idpg7a5@corp.supernews.com...
> > I didn't say the Rubicon sucked at all, quite the contrary. I said it
was
> a
> > great product, but that the mfr/dealer equation overpriced a simple set
of
> > upgrade options to the degree that the vehicle won't get bought or used
by
> > enthusiast Jeepers in a way it was intended.
> >
>
> Actually, you said it twice that I noticed, here is one instance,
>
> "Frankly, there's getting to be a school of thought among veteran Jeepers
> that the Rubicon simply SUCKS, mostly due to its owners. There must have
> been 500 of the things at Moab last year and eventually everyone avoided
> them like the plague. This months JP mag lists them among the 10 Jeeps
they
> wouldn't own.
>
> Not that it's a bad rig out of the box, mind you, but Jeep FU'd the entire
> deal by pricing it so high that posers bought most of them, then the
dealers
> screwed it up even further by ordering them loaded to the max with stupid
> options like power mirrors, A/C, etc., driving the price to $30k plus.
> That's right, $30k, and now I suppose you're going to take it out on the
> rocks? RIGHT!!!!!"
>
>
> And, being a veteran Jeeper, I take offense that you might suggest that I
> think it sucks.
>
>
>
>
> > Look, the lockers are the only feature of the Rubicon's spec that are
> > ADDITIONAL to a base TJ.
>
> That, and the D44s that are an option in the back of a base (Sport
actually)
> and not even available on the front on any other TJ. Then, there is the
tire
> package that delivers (are they 32s?) a tire option that is not availabvle
> on any other Jeep product. We already mentioned the lockers. Did you
forget
> the 4:1 transfer case? Yes, you forgot all about that. Let's see, there
are
> 4.10 gears that are not available on any other model except the base model
4
> banger. You can't even get 4.10 gears on anything but a 4 cyl motor, no
> mater what the trim level is.
>
>
>
> That is, all TJs are 4wd, with xfer cases. Having
> > worked over 25 years for auto mfrs I can say with authority there's only
a
> > minute, marginal cost difference between a D44 and either the D30 or 35,
> and
> > the 4.1 xfer case isn't much more costly than a base NV231 either. The
> only
> > real added cost to the mfr is the locker/compressor combo, and that's
not
> > worth $5k.
> > (You have to think in terms of what a manufacturer pays for components,
> not
> > what the consumer pays. The difference is enormous.)
> >
>
> Actually what you have to of is the relative value placed upon these
> accessories by the expected customer base. I happen to think you are
right,
> it is a pricey option package, but if it was cheap, they might as well
stop
> making the other packages because everybody would want the Rubicon instead
> of any other package.
>
>
>
> > Dealers get into the act when they tart up the things with
non-performance
> > related "cruising" options (cd players, A/C, etc.) that cost the
consumer
> a
> > bundle and are virtually worthless the minute the thing rolls off the
lot,
> > and add on another $2k for "additional dealer profit" and the goose is
> > cooked..
> >
>
> I agree, but you made the specific statement, twice, that the Rubicon
> "SUCKS" (you even used all caps as if to make a particular point), but the
> only thing you have said that even remotely sucks is that it costs more
than
> you are willing to pay, and you can't buy a stripped Rubicon in an attempt
> to avoid costly options that you don't want.
>
> It takes more than a stupid pricing plan to make a vehicle "SUCK".
>
>
>
>
#29
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Tomb Raider Rubicon
You're not catching on yet and it's clear you responded before you read what
I had to say:
Again, the thing is only an UPGRADE of standard spec items, the collective,
incremental cost of which is marginal to DC, and yes, they frankly could
just up the spec on all of them to Rubicon level, raise the price marginally
and sell a jillion of them. But they won't, 'cuz they're greedy,
short-sighted, bean-counting bastards.
The cost difference between a D44 & a D30 or D35 is negligible, not even a
fraction of the $600 they charge for the rear axle upgrade on a std TJ. The
cost diff between the std wheels & tires and the Rubicon's 16" Goodyear MTRs
is also negligible at the mfr level, and there is NO cost difference between
3.07 gears and 4.10s. There's virtually no cost difference between a 2.72
NV231 and the Rubicon's 4.1 box, etc. The only real incremental cost
increase to DC is for the lockers & its control unit. In short, paying $5k+
for the cost of the Rubicon's upgrades....IS A RIP!
<< Actually what you have to (sic) of is the relative value placed upon
these accessories by the expected customer base. I happen to think you are
right, it is a pricey option package, but if it was cheap, they might as
well stop making the other packages because everybody would want the Rubicon
instead of any other package. >>
.....and thus many of those who are buying them in large measure pay the
ridiculous premium, not to use the stuff, but because the rig is "hip" right
now and looks cool cruising. This is why veteran Jeepers think .....dare I
say it again, ..... it SUCKS!!!!
See, I'd love to be able to order a std 4.0 TJ with the 4.10 D44's at both
ends (actually, I'd prefer high pinions and a Rock D60 out back, but stay
with me) the lockers and the 4.1 xfer case...and that's it. Best premium I
should have to pay is, oh $2k, tops. I wouldn't even have to have the
metallic pee-yellow paint or the decals on the hood. (See all the money DC
could save?) But, they won't be this practical because they want to HOSE
everyone that considers themselves enthusiast enough to want one, and we
think (...... dare I say it AGAIN????) that SUCKS!!!!!
Look, I'll take my $30 and build a custom rock CJ that I'll treasure forever
before I'll give DC an equivalent amount for this kind of nonsense. DC ought
to be worried about that, 'cuz I own, not only 3 Jeeps, but an MB as well.
They just might want me to buy another one, don't you think?
"Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vkl6im3rhqefd6@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> news:vkl16s3idpg7a5@corp.supernews.com...
> > I didn't say the Rubicon sucked at all, quite the contrary. I said it
was
> a
> > great product, but that the mfr/dealer equation overpriced a simple set
of
> > upgrade options to the degree that the vehicle won't get bought or used
by
> > enthusiast Jeepers in a way it was intended.
> >
>
> Actually, you said it twice that I noticed, here is one instance,
>
> "Frankly, there's getting to be a school of thought among veteran Jeepers
> that the Rubicon simply SUCKS, mostly due to its owners. There must have
> been 500 of the things at Moab last year and eventually everyone avoided
> them like the plague. This months JP mag lists them among the 10 Jeeps
they
> wouldn't own.
>
> Not that it's a bad rig out of the box, mind you, but Jeep FU'd the entire
> deal by pricing it so high that posers bought most of them, then the
dealers
> screwed it up even further by ordering them loaded to the max with stupid
> options like power mirrors, A/C, etc., driving the price to $30k plus.
> That's right, $30k, and now I suppose you're going to take it out on the
> rocks? RIGHT!!!!!"
>
>
> And, being a veteran Jeeper, I take offense that you might suggest that I
> think it sucks.
>
>
>
>
> > Look, the lockers are the only feature of the Rubicon's spec that are
> > ADDITIONAL to a base TJ.
>
> That, and the D44s that are an option in the back of a base (Sport
actually)
> and not even available on the front on any other TJ. Then, there is the
tire
> package that delivers (are they 32s?) a tire option that is not availabvle
> on any other Jeep product. We already mentioned the lockers. Did you
forget
> the 4:1 transfer case? Yes, you forgot all about that. Let's see, there
are
> 4.10 gears that are not available on any other model except the base model
4
> banger. You can't even get 4.10 gears on anything but a 4 cyl motor, no
> mater what the trim level is.
>
>
>
> That is, all TJs are 4wd, with xfer cases. Having
> > worked over 25 years for auto mfrs I can say with authority there's only
a
> > minute, marginal cost difference between a D44 and either the D30 or 35,
> and
> > the 4.1 xfer case isn't much more costly than a base NV231 either. The
> only
> > real added cost to the mfr is the locker/compressor combo, and that's
not
> > worth $5k.
> > (You have to think in terms of what a manufacturer pays for components,
> not
> > what the consumer pays. The difference is enormous.)
> >
>
> Actually what you have to of is the relative value placed upon these
> accessories by the expected customer base. I happen to think you are
right,
> it is a pricey option package, but if it was cheap, they might as well
stop
> making the other packages because everybody would want the Rubicon instead
> of any other package.
>
>
>
> > Dealers get into the act when they tart up the things with
non-performance
> > related "cruising" options (cd players, A/C, etc.) that cost the
consumer
> a
> > bundle and are virtually worthless the minute the thing rolls off the
lot,
> > and add on another $2k for "additional dealer profit" and the goose is
> > cooked..
> >
>
> I agree, but you made the specific statement, twice, that the Rubicon
> "SUCKS" (you even used all caps as if to make a particular point), but the
> only thing you have said that even remotely sucks is that it costs more
than
> you are willing to pay, and you can't buy a stripped Rubicon in an attempt
> to avoid costly options that you don't want.
>
> It takes more than a stupid pricing plan to make a vehicle "SUCK".
>
>
>
>
I had to say:
Again, the thing is only an UPGRADE of standard spec items, the collective,
incremental cost of which is marginal to DC, and yes, they frankly could
just up the spec on all of them to Rubicon level, raise the price marginally
and sell a jillion of them. But they won't, 'cuz they're greedy,
short-sighted, bean-counting bastards.
The cost difference between a D44 & a D30 or D35 is negligible, not even a
fraction of the $600 they charge for the rear axle upgrade on a std TJ. The
cost diff between the std wheels & tires and the Rubicon's 16" Goodyear MTRs
is also negligible at the mfr level, and there is NO cost difference between
3.07 gears and 4.10s. There's virtually no cost difference between a 2.72
NV231 and the Rubicon's 4.1 box, etc. The only real incremental cost
increase to DC is for the lockers & its control unit. In short, paying $5k+
for the cost of the Rubicon's upgrades....IS A RIP!
<< Actually what you have to (sic) of is the relative value placed upon
these accessories by the expected customer base. I happen to think you are
right, it is a pricey option package, but if it was cheap, they might as
well stop making the other packages because everybody would want the Rubicon
instead of any other package. >>
.....and thus many of those who are buying them in large measure pay the
ridiculous premium, not to use the stuff, but because the rig is "hip" right
now and looks cool cruising. This is why veteran Jeepers think .....dare I
say it again, ..... it SUCKS!!!!
See, I'd love to be able to order a std 4.0 TJ with the 4.10 D44's at both
ends (actually, I'd prefer high pinions and a Rock D60 out back, but stay
with me) the lockers and the 4.1 xfer case...and that's it. Best premium I
should have to pay is, oh $2k, tops. I wouldn't even have to have the
metallic pee-yellow paint or the decals on the hood. (See all the money DC
could save?) But, they won't be this practical because they want to HOSE
everyone that considers themselves enthusiast enough to want one, and we
think (...... dare I say it AGAIN????) that SUCKS!!!!!
Look, I'll take my $30 and build a custom rock CJ that I'll treasure forever
before I'll give DC an equivalent amount for this kind of nonsense. DC ought
to be worried about that, 'cuz I own, not only 3 Jeeps, but an MB as well.
They just might want me to buy another one, don't you think?
"Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vkl6im3rhqefd6@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> news:vkl16s3idpg7a5@corp.supernews.com...
> > I didn't say the Rubicon sucked at all, quite the contrary. I said it
was
> a
> > great product, but that the mfr/dealer equation overpriced a simple set
of
> > upgrade options to the degree that the vehicle won't get bought or used
by
> > enthusiast Jeepers in a way it was intended.
> >
>
> Actually, you said it twice that I noticed, here is one instance,
>
> "Frankly, there's getting to be a school of thought among veteran Jeepers
> that the Rubicon simply SUCKS, mostly due to its owners. There must have
> been 500 of the things at Moab last year and eventually everyone avoided
> them like the plague. This months JP mag lists them among the 10 Jeeps
they
> wouldn't own.
>
> Not that it's a bad rig out of the box, mind you, but Jeep FU'd the entire
> deal by pricing it so high that posers bought most of them, then the
dealers
> screwed it up even further by ordering them loaded to the max with stupid
> options like power mirrors, A/C, etc., driving the price to $30k plus.
> That's right, $30k, and now I suppose you're going to take it out on the
> rocks? RIGHT!!!!!"
>
>
> And, being a veteran Jeeper, I take offense that you might suggest that I
> think it sucks.
>
>
>
>
> > Look, the lockers are the only feature of the Rubicon's spec that are
> > ADDITIONAL to a base TJ.
>
> That, and the D44s that are an option in the back of a base (Sport
actually)
> and not even available on the front on any other TJ. Then, there is the
tire
> package that delivers (are they 32s?) a tire option that is not availabvle
> on any other Jeep product. We already mentioned the lockers. Did you
forget
> the 4:1 transfer case? Yes, you forgot all about that. Let's see, there
are
> 4.10 gears that are not available on any other model except the base model
4
> banger. You can't even get 4.10 gears on anything but a 4 cyl motor, no
> mater what the trim level is.
>
>
>
> That is, all TJs are 4wd, with xfer cases. Having
> > worked over 25 years for auto mfrs I can say with authority there's only
a
> > minute, marginal cost difference between a D44 and either the D30 or 35,
> and
> > the 4.1 xfer case isn't much more costly than a base NV231 either. The
> only
> > real added cost to the mfr is the locker/compressor combo, and that's
not
> > worth $5k.
> > (You have to think in terms of what a manufacturer pays for components,
> not
> > what the consumer pays. The difference is enormous.)
> >
>
> Actually what you have to of is the relative value placed upon these
> accessories by the expected customer base. I happen to think you are
right,
> it is a pricey option package, but if it was cheap, they might as well
stop
> making the other packages because everybody would want the Rubicon instead
> of any other package.
>
>
>
> > Dealers get into the act when they tart up the things with
non-performance
> > related "cruising" options (cd players, A/C, etc.) that cost the
consumer
> a
> > bundle and are virtually worthless the minute the thing rolls off the
lot,
> > and add on another $2k for "additional dealer profit" and the goose is
> > cooked..
> >
>
> I agree, but you made the specific statement, twice, that the Rubicon
> "SUCKS" (you even used all caps as if to make a particular point), but the
> only thing you have said that even remotely sucks is that it costs more
than
> you are willing to pay, and you can't buy a stripped Rubicon in an attempt
> to avoid costly options that you don't want.
>
> It takes more than a stupid pricing plan to make a vehicle "SUCK".
>
>
>
>
#30
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Tomb Raider Rubicon
Hey Earle,
You ARE right about some things tho. I purchased my Rubicon with A/C
simply because I thought it would increase trade-in. Not because I LIVE
IN TEXAS or anything. I only got the lockers because of the speed bumps
in the mall parking lot. Damn, those things are gettig bigger every
year. I'm glad they're starting to paint them yellow so I can hit my
locker button and get both axles locked in before I actually start the
long climb over the speed bump.
Can you and McFly take this to a chat room?
Earle Horton wrote:
> You're wasting your breath. Many of these guys are Telluride types who buy
> into the whole illusion thing and bought the Rubicon for that. They
> *believe* that AC actually increases trade-in value. Either that, or
> they're incredibly rich and paying double value for a locker/compressor
> combo is merely convenient. Think of it as a parallel reality to what you
> and I are used to, and since you live in Durango I am not so sure about
> you...
>
> By the way, ¡Hace mucho calor! in Grand Junction today and that long Labor
> Day weekend back in Silverton is sure going to come in handy.
>
> Earle
>
--
__________________________________________________ _________
tw
03 TJ Rubicon
01 XJ Sport
There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
-- Dave Barry
http://www.7slotgrille.com/jeepers/t...ron/index.html
(Please remove the OBVIOUS to reply by email)
__________________________________________________ _________
You ARE right about some things tho. I purchased my Rubicon with A/C
simply because I thought it would increase trade-in. Not because I LIVE
IN TEXAS or anything. I only got the lockers because of the speed bumps
in the mall parking lot. Damn, those things are gettig bigger every
year. I'm glad they're starting to paint them yellow so I can hit my
locker button and get both axles locked in before I actually start the
long climb over the speed bump.
Can you and McFly take this to a chat room?
Earle Horton wrote:
> You're wasting your breath. Many of these guys are Telluride types who buy
> into the whole illusion thing and bought the Rubicon for that. They
> *believe* that AC actually increases trade-in value. Either that, or
> they're incredibly rich and paying double value for a locker/compressor
> combo is merely convenient. Think of it as a parallel reality to what you
> and I are used to, and since you live in Durango I am not so sure about
> you...
>
> By the way, ¡Hace mucho calor! in Grand Junction today and that long Labor
> Day weekend back in Silverton is sure going to come in handy.
>
> Earle
>
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03 TJ Rubicon
01 XJ Sport
There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
-- Dave Barry
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