Not at all, you are simply running around in circles like you have a nail
through one foot. Take a deep breath....

"Veteran Jeepers" and their opinions doesn't necessarily include me, I just
commented upon what I've heard from my fellow Jeep enthusiasts and what I've
read, thus my JP/Cappa reference. I didn't even say I agreed with this point
of view, did I? Hell, I even apologized if I offended any of the very (ahem)
THIN SKINNED Rubicon owners out there (which doesn't include ALL Rubicon
owners, I'm sure.)

My comment was intended to be critical of DC for their outrageous pricing of
a very simple set of component upgrades that some can argue should be
standard equipment anyway.


"Tyler Dirden" <na@spam.smeat.net> wrote in message
news:NOM2b.203715$It4.96822@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att. net...
> Oh I for got the owners are another reason the Rubi sucks. I'm quoting
> here...
>
> "Frankly, there's getting to be a school of thought among veteran Jeepers
> that the Rubicon simply SUCKS, mostly due to its owners."
>
> Have I got a good grip on things?
> td
>
> "Tyler Dirden" <na@spam.smeat.net> wrote in message
> news:9KM2b.103890$2x.30158@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.n et...
> > So... and correct me if I'm wrong here (I'm sure you will)... Your
saying
> > the Rubicon sucks... because it's too expensive? I paid 24,5 for mine...
> > Does that suck? Or (dare I ask it) do I suck?
> > td
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > news:vkn4rh1to95jfa@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Now you're catching on.
> > >
> > > Because they all price gouge on upgrades & options DOES NOT make it
> right,
> > > but does make it....dare I say it again.....SUCK!!
> > >
> > > Look, the VERY GOOD NEWS about the Rubicon is that it shows Jeep is
not
> > only
> > > aware of what the Jeep brand values encompass, they are in tune with
the
> > > desires of many enthusiasts and better yet, willing to follow through
> with
> > a
> > > truly great product. I shows courage and good awareness of the brands
> core
> > > values at the highest levels of DC. And, don't be fooled, there are
> bound
> > to
> > > be a bunch of corporate curmudgeons at DC hoping the Rubicon would
flop,
> > and
> > > it clearly didn't.
> > >
> > > Having worked for a DC competitor I know the legal & cost hurdles what
> the
> > > team that pushed this product through had to overcome. I think we can
> > credit
> > > the Daimler-Benz ownership for making this happen, as we know the
> > > Detroit-based morons who run the US auto industry are a bunch of bean
> > > counting cowards when it comes to making true "performance" vehicles.
> > >
> > > HOWEVER, all that aside, price gouging isn't an acceptable trade-off
in
> my
> > > book. The auto industry ranks about one notch above lawyers and child
> > > molesters in the eyes of the public for this very reason.
> > > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:vkn3pcm2o37363@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > So, you are not saying the Rubicon sucks, as I pointed out earlier,
> you
> > > are
> > > > saying the marketing/pricing plan sucks. These are two completely
> > > different
> > > > things.
> > > >
> > > > And, yes, I did read your entire post, and an entire reply before I
> even
> > > got
> > > > into the discussion, so I think I am pretty well caught up in what
you
> > > have
> > > > to say. I think you said it poorly, and that has caused this thread
to
> > go
> > > on
> > > > and on.
> > > >
> > > > As for the pricing, ALL automakers charge for upgrades that only
> > represent
> > > > in incremental cost increase, but they get full retail for the
upgrade
> > AND
> > > > they get to sell the allocated stock parts on another vehicle or
over
> > the
> > > > parts counter. It doesn't really matter where the stock parts go,
the
> > > point
> > > > is the upgrade parts only cost, say, $500 more than the original
> parts,
> > > yet
> > > > they sell the upgrades for full retail instead of only the cost up.
> You
> > > will
> > > > never escape this. You can beat it, partially, by performing the
> > upgrades
> > > > yourself, then selling the take-offs on the aftermarket. But, most
of
> us
> > > do
> > > > not have the skill set needed for these upgrades, nor the storage
> space
> > > > needed to carry the take-offs waiting for a buyer on eBay.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:vkl8lj8noog51b@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > You're not catching on yet and it's clear you responded before you
> > read
> > > > what
> > > > > I had to say:
> > > > >
> > > > > Again, the thing is only an UPGRADE of standard spec items, the
> > > > collective,
> > > > > incremental cost of which is marginal to DC, and yes, they frankly
> > could
> > > > > just up the spec on all of them to Rubicon level, raise the price
> > > > marginally
> > > > > and sell a jillion of them. But they won't, 'cuz they're greedy,
> > > > > short-sighted, bean-counting bastards.
> > > > >
> > > > > The cost difference between a D44 & a D30 or D35 is negligible,
not
> > even
> > > a
> > > > > fraction of the $600 they charge for the rear axle upgrade on a
std
> > TJ.
> > > > The
> > > > > cost diff between the std wheels & tires and the Rubicon's 16"
> > Goodyear
> > > > MTRs
> > > > > is also negligible at the mfr level, and there is NO cost
difference
> > > > between
> > > > > 3.07 gears and 4.10s. There's virtually no cost difference between
a
> > > 2.72
> > > > > NV231 and the Rubicon's 4.1 box, etc. The only real incremental
cost
> > > > > increase to DC is for the lockers & its control unit. In short,
> paying
> > > > $5k+
> > > > > for the cost of the Rubicon's upgrades....IS A RIP!
> > > > >
> > > > > << Actually what you have to (sic) of is the relative value placed
> > upon
> > > > > these accessories by the expected customer base. I happen to think
> you
> > > are
> > > > > right, it is a pricey option package, but if it was cheap, they
> might
> > as
> > > > > well stop making the other packages because everybody would want
the
> > > > Rubicon
> > > > > instead of any other package. >>
> > > > >
> > > > > ....and thus many of those who are buying them in large measure
pay
> > the
> > > > > ridiculous premium, not to use the stuff, but because the rig is
> "hip"
> > > > right
> > > > > now and looks cool cruising. This is why veteran Jeepers think
> > > .....dare
> > > > I
> > > > > say it again, ..... it SUCKS!!!!
> > > > >
> > > > > See, I'd love to be able to order a std 4.0 TJ with the 4.10 D44's
> at
> > > both
> > > > > ends (actually, I'd prefer high pinions and a Rock D60 out back,
but
> > > stay
> > > > > with me) the lockers and the 4.1 xfer case...and that's it. Best
> > premium
> > > I
> > > > > should have to pay is, oh $2k, tops. I wouldn't even have to have
> the
> > > > > metallic pee-yellow paint or the decals on the hood. (See all the
> > money
> > > DC
> > > > > could save?) But, they won't be this practical because they want
to
> > HOSE
> > > > > everyone that considers themselves enthusiast enough to want one,
> and
> > we
> > > > > think (...... dare I say it AGAIN????) that SUCKS!!!!!
> > > > >
> > > > > Look, I'll take my $30 and build a custom rock CJ that I'll
treasure
> > > > forever
> > > > > before I'll give DC an equivalent amount for this kind of
nonsense.
> DC
> > > > ought
> > > > > to be worried about that, 'cuz I own, not only 3 Jeeps, but an MB
as
> > > well.
> > > > > They just might want me to buy another one, don't you think?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vkl6im3rhqefd6@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:vkl16s3idpg7a5@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > I didn't say the Rubicon sucked at all, quite the contrary. I
> said
> > > it
> > > > > was
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > great product, but that the mfr/dealer equation overpriced a
> > simple
> > > > set
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > upgrade options to the degree that the vehicle won't get
bought
> or
> > > > used
> > > > > by
> > > > > > > enthusiast Jeepers in a way it was intended.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Actually, you said it twice that I noticed, here is one
instance,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Frankly, there's getting to be a school of thought among
veteran
> > > > Jeepers
> > > > > > that the Rubicon simply SUCKS, mostly due to its owners. There
> must
> > ha
> > > ve
> > > > > > been 500 of the things at Moab last year and eventually everyone
> > > avoided
> > > > > > them like the plague. This months JP mag lists them among the 10
> > Jeeps
> > > > > they
> > > > > > wouldn't own.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Not that it's a bad rig out of the box, mind you, but Jeep FU'd
> the
> > > > entire
> > > > > > deal by pricing it so high that posers bought most of them, then
> the
> > > > > dealers
> > > > > > screwed it up even further by ordering them loaded to the max
with
> > > > stupid
> > > > > > options like power mirrors, A/C, etc., driving the price to $30k
> > plus.
> > > > > > That's right, $30k, and now I suppose you're going to take it
out
> on
> > > the
> > > > > > rocks? RIGHT!!!!!"
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And, being a veteran Jeeper, I take offense that you might
suggest
> > > that
> > > > I
> > > > > > think it sucks.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Look, the lockers are the only feature of the Rubicon's spec
> that
> > > are
> > > > > > > ADDITIONAL to a base TJ.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That, and the D44s that are an option in the back of a base
(Sport
> > > > > actually)
> > > > > > and not even available on the front on any other TJ. Then, there
> is
> > > the
> > > > > tire
> > > > > > package that delivers (are they 32s?) a tire option that is not
> > > > availabvle
> > > > > > on any other Jeep product. We already mentioned the lockers. Did
> you
> > > > > forget
> > > > > > the 4:1 transfer case? Yes, you forgot all about that. Let's
see,
> > > there
> > > > > are
> > > > > > 4.10 gears that are not available on any other model except the
> base
> > > > model
> > > > > 4
> > > > > > banger. You can't even get 4.10 gears on anything but a 4 cyl
> motor,
> > > no
> > > > > > mater what the trim level is.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That is, all TJs are 4wd, with xfer cases. Having
> > > > > > > worked over 25 years for auto mfrs I can say with authority
> > there's
> > > > only
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > minute, marginal cost difference between a D44 and either the
> D30
> > or
> > > > 35,
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > the 4.1 xfer case isn't much more costly than a base NV231
> either.
> > > The
> > > > > > only
> > > > > > > real added cost to the mfr is the locker/compressor combo, and
> > > that's
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > worth $5k.
> > > > > > > (You have to think in terms of what a manufacturer pays for
> > > > components,
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > what the consumer pays. The difference is enormous.)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Actually what you have to of is the relative value placed upon
> these
> > > > > > accessories by the expected customer base. I happen to think you
> are
> > > > > right,
> > > > > > it is a pricey option package, but if it was cheap, they might
as
> > well
> > > > > stop
> > > > > > making the other packages because everybody would want the
Rubicon
> > > > instead
> > > > > > of any other package.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dealers get into the act when they tart up the things with
> > > > > non-performance
> > > > > > > related "cruising" options (cd players, A/C, etc.) that cost
the
> > > > > consumer
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > bundle and are virtually worthless the minute the thing rolls
> off
> > > the
> > > > > lot,
> > > > > > > and add on another $2k for "additional dealer profit" and the
> > goose
> > > is
> > > > > > > cooked..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I agree, but you made the specific statement, twice, that the
> > Rubicon
> > > > > > "SUCKS" (you even used all caps as if to make a particular
point),
> > but
> > > > the
> > > > > > only thing you have said that even remotely sucks is that it
costs
> > > more
> > > > > than
> > > > > > you are willing to pay, and you can't buy a stripped Rubicon in
an
> > > > attempt
> > > > > > to avoid costly options that you don't want.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It takes more than a stupid pricing plan to make a vehicle
"SUCK".
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

 

This is really interesting. The CO 4wd Association wanted to raffle one off
this year and couldn't when the dealer rescinded his offer to provide one at
just over invoice due to demand. Apparently that dealer would have just
dropped his pants if he saw you guys coming, so I'll let COHVCO know to hire
you to be the negotiator next time.


"Nathan W. Collier" <Nathanis@7SlotGrille.com> wrote in message
news:fWM2b.26965$r15.1084128@twister.southeast.rr. com...
> "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> news:vkn5rsao0nqa9d@corp.supernews.com...
> > We still think you're full of prunes re: the $100 over invoice
statement.
>
> replace the "we" with an "i" because i dont think anybody here aside from
> you is bothering to question his credibility. if i hadnt been trying to
> unload a car that i couldnt seem to sell i feel safe in saying that i
could
> have also gotten my rubicon in that range.
>
> --
> Nathan W. Collier
> http://7SlotGrille.com
>
>
>
>

 

This is really interesting. The CO 4wd Association wanted to raffle one off
this year and couldn't when the dealer rescinded his offer to provide one at
just over invoice due to demand. Apparently that dealer would have just
dropped his pants if he saw you guys coming, so I'll let COHVCO know to hire
you to be the negotiator next time.


"Nathan W. Collier" <Nathanis@7SlotGrille.com> wrote in message
news:fWM2b.26965$r15.1084128@twister.southeast.rr. com...
> "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> news:vkn5rsao0nqa9d@corp.supernews.com...
> > We still think you're full of prunes re: the $100 over invoice
statement.
>
> replace the "we" with an "i" because i dont think anybody here aside from
> you is bothering to question his credibility. if i hadnt been trying to
> unload a car that i couldnt seem to sell i feel safe in saying that i
could
> have also gotten my rubicon in that range.
>
> --
> Nathan W. Collier
> http://7SlotGrille.com
>
>
>
>

 

"Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
news:vkn7l346jt4me1@corp.supernews.com...
> Apparently that dealer would have just
> dropped his pants if he saw you guys coming, so I'll let COHVCO know to
hire
> you to be the negotiator next time.

now youre just being an -------. different regions will have different
sales numbers. ive heard of some dealers selling rubicons for $5k over
msrp. at the same time, i know of many dealers who couldnt give them away
(most any dealer around a military base after everybody left for
afghanistan/iraq. you might not have the ability to negotiate a fair deal,
but dont traject your limitations on others. when a vehicle first hits the
market it can be tough to get a fair deal, but after the dust settles its
not hard at all, you just gotta buy at the right time in the right region.
for a perfect example, harley davidson dealers dont negotiate at all right
now, but watch what happens when ice is on the ground.


--
Nathan W. Collier
http://7SlotGrille.com

 

"Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
news:vkn7l346jt4me1@corp.supernews.com...
> Apparently that dealer would have just
> dropped his pants if he saw you guys coming, so I'll let COHVCO know to
hire
> you to be the negotiator next time.

now youre just being an -------. different regions will have different
sales numbers. ive heard of some dealers selling rubicons for $5k over
msrp. at the same time, i know of many dealers who couldnt give them away
(most any dealer around a military base after everybody left for
afghanistan/iraq. you might not have the ability to negotiate a fair deal,
but dont traject your limitations on others. when a vehicle first hits the
market it can be tough to get a fair deal, but after the dust settles its
not hard at all, you just gotta buy at the right time in the right region.
for a perfect example, harley davidson dealers dont negotiate at all right
now, but watch what happens when ice is on the ground.


--
Nathan W. Collier
http://7SlotGrille.com

 

"Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vknbdr8e174967@corp.supernews.com...
> I am sure that
> nobody thinks the Rubicon SUCKS because a few of the drivers are idiots.

thats an interesting point. show me a poser in a rubicon and ill show you
10 posers in other jeeps.

> If there is a veteran Jeeper out there that thinks the Rubicon SUCKS,
please
> pipe in here ...

er, _except_ for bill since he hates coil springs.

otoh, he never told me that my rubicon wasnt a real jeep. bill? :-)

--
Nathan W. Collier
http://7SlotGrille.com

 

"Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vknbdr8e174967@corp.supernews.com...
> I am sure that
> nobody thinks the Rubicon SUCKS because a few of the drivers are idiots.

thats an interesting point. show me a poser in a rubicon and ill show you
10 posers in other jeeps.

> If there is a veteran Jeeper out there that thinks the Rubicon SUCKS,
please
> pipe in here ...

er, _except_ for bill since he hates coil springs.

otoh, he never told me that my rubicon wasnt a real jeep. bill? :-)

--
Nathan W. Collier
http://7SlotGrille.com

 

....or "Gerald McBoing-boing". Anyone remember him?

"Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
news:vkn4vbmgkchj2b@corp.supernews.com...
> Try it and see. (You might want to try Jerry McGeorge)
>
> "Nathan W. Collier" <Nathanis@7SlotGrille.com> wrote in message
> news:hoM2b.26943$r15.1082402@twister.southeast.rr. com...
> > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > news:vkn3igmlrrit13@corp.supernews.com...
> > > this character is totally BS'ing
> > > us when he says he paid $100 over invoice for a Rubicon.
> >
> > youre talking about a very well respected, long time member of this
> > newsgroup that has contributed far more than "rubicons suck".
> >
> > i swear, if it werent for people like jeff strickland who use supernews
> (and
> > others like teranews, altopia.....the services where all the
troublemakers
> > seem to come from) i would filter out those services entirely. if i do
a
> > google on "gerald g. mcgeorge" will i find any history beyond your
intial
> > "rubicons suck" post?
> >
> > --
> > Nathan W. Collier
> > http://7SlotGrille.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>

 

....or "Gerald McBoing-boing". Anyone remember him?

"Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
news:vkn4vbmgkchj2b@corp.supernews.com...
> Try it and see. (You might want to try Jerry McGeorge)
>
> "Nathan W. Collier" <Nathanis@7SlotGrille.com> wrote in message
> news:hoM2b.26943$r15.1082402@twister.southeast.rr. com...
> > "Gerald G. McGeorge" <gmcgeorge@frontier.net> wrote in message
> > news:vkn3igmlrrit13@corp.supernews.com...
> > > this character is totally BS'ing
> > > us when he says he paid $100 over invoice for a Rubicon.
> >
> > youre talking about a very well respected, long time member of this
> > newsgroup that has contributed far more than "rubicons suck".
> >
> > i swear, if it werent for people like jeff strickland who use supernews
> (and
> > others like teranews, altopia.....the services where all the
troublemakers
> > seem to come from) i would filter out those services entirely. if i do
a
> > google on "gerald g. mcgeorge" will i find any history beyond your
intial
> > "rubicons suck" post?
> >
> > --
> > Nathan W. Collier
> > http://7SlotGrille.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>

 

Diamonds are not worthless. They have no more "cost" than anything else
that is dug out of the ground and polished. The "value" or "worth" comes
from their usefulness. ...just like d44s and 4:1 xfer cases... :)

"Lon Stowell" <lon.stowell@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:mO2dnXCKiNALO9aiXTWJhw@comcast.com...
> Approximately 8/26/03 08:36, twaldron uttered for posterity:
>
> > The same could be said for diamonds. They are inherently worthless, but
> > they have a HUGE perceived value, along with an artificial value set
> > forth and controlled by DeBeers and company.
>
> Diamonds are not worthless, they are extremely valuable as industrial
> tools and in electronics. The DeBeers monopoly is not quite as rigid
> as it used to be due to competition from Russia. Man made diamonds
> of gem quality are more expensive than their naturally ocurring
> competition.
>
>