Order Jeep -> Lose Rebate??
12-09-2003, 11:02 PM
#161
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Order Jeep -> Lose Rebate??
Roughly 12/9/03 18:39, Mike Romain's monkeys randomly typed:
> Del, the makers even state ABS has a longer braking distance.
Cite?
>
> There isn't any debate on that issue, do a google search.
Well, I did. And up coughed a paper from the Society of
Automotive Engineers, SAE 1999-01-1287.
The purpose of the study was to determine if situations and
or conditions occur where ABS equipped vehicles do not perform
as well as vehicles without ABS.
"For most maneuvers, on most surfaces, ABS-assisted stops
yielded distances shorter than those made with the ABS
disabled. The one exception was on loose gravel where
stopping distances increased by an average of 27.2
percent overall. [as you've noted many times, not a
good idea offroad]. Additionally the vehicular stability
observed during testing was almost always superior with
ABS. For the cases in which instability was observed,
ABS was not deemed responsible for its occurrence."
All of the tests were conducted in the same vehicle with and
without ABS, to avoid differences in basic vehicle stability.
Without ABS, a professional driver was used to implement
threshhold braking, with instrumentation to ensure that
at no time was more than one wheel locked during this
threshhold, aka, "best effort" braking. In every test
on dry concrete, the ABS beat this driver in every vehicle
tested. On wet Jennite with laden vehicles, the ABS beat
the human every time. Only on wet Jennite with lightly
loaded vehicles was the human able to beat ABS in one
test out of 8. Same results on wet asphalt, an expert
human beat the ABS only in 1 or 8 tests and only when
the vehicle is lightly loaded. ABS and heavy load
beat the human every time. And on wet grass. On
gravel, the human beat the heck out of ABS, light or
heavy load.
Full wheel locked panic stops didn't do so good...although
for most drivers they are still better than trying to use
threshhold braking due to lack of experience.
Same paper notes that crash databases clearly show that although
4 wheel ABS has produced some safety benefit, the net result
from those crash statistics clearly indicates that these
benefits in practice are far lower than predicted from
engineering data and testing. e.g. single vehicle
fatal crashes on wet roads were reduced 24% on ABS
equipped vehicles, but the overall incidence of fatal
single vehicle crashes increased 28% with ABS. And the
safety ***** as well as the engineers that designed the
systems wanted to know why. [Obviously none of them have
ever driven in a Silicon Valley commute with a few soccer
moms glued to their asses.]
>
> It is not operator error, it is a defective attempt to compensate for
> drivers that were never trained how to drive.
Nothing wrong with ABS. Problem is just the drivers don't
engage it, end up sawing at the wheel, or think it is a
magical get out of jail free card to allow excessive speed
for conditions or following too closely.
Well, almost nothing. Not entirely sure how the ABS would
know the vehicle was on gravel all by its own inputs, but
with input from the shock absorbers it easily should be
able to figure out that it is best disabled.
>
> Same for air bags. Ever wonder why they are designed to stop an adult
> with no seat belt on? To compensate for fools on the roads.
To kill a few small women and kids to save those too stupid to
buckle up.
--
Fan of the dumbest team in America.
> Del, the makers even state ABS has a longer braking distance.
Cite?
>
> There isn't any debate on that issue, do a google search.
Well, I did. And up coughed a paper from the Society of
Automotive Engineers, SAE 1999-01-1287.
The purpose of the study was to determine if situations and
or conditions occur where ABS equipped vehicles do not perform
as well as vehicles without ABS.
"For most maneuvers, on most surfaces, ABS-assisted stops
yielded distances shorter than those made with the ABS
disabled. The one exception was on loose gravel where
stopping distances increased by an average of 27.2
percent overall. [as you've noted many times, not a
good idea offroad]. Additionally the vehicular stability
observed during testing was almost always superior with
ABS. For the cases in which instability was observed,
ABS was not deemed responsible for its occurrence."
All of the tests were conducted in the same vehicle with and
without ABS, to avoid differences in basic vehicle stability.
Without ABS, a professional driver was used to implement
threshhold braking, with instrumentation to ensure that
at no time was more than one wheel locked during this
threshhold, aka, "best effort" braking. In every test
on dry concrete, the ABS beat this driver in every vehicle
tested. On wet Jennite with laden vehicles, the ABS beat
the human every time. Only on wet Jennite with lightly
loaded vehicles was the human able to beat ABS in one
test out of 8. Same results on wet asphalt, an expert
human beat the ABS only in 1 or 8 tests and only when
the vehicle is lightly loaded. ABS and heavy load
beat the human every time. And on wet grass. On
gravel, the human beat the heck out of ABS, light or
heavy load.
Full wheel locked panic stops didn't do so good...although
for most drivers they are still better than trying to use
threshhold braking due to lack of experience.
Same paper notes that crash databases clearly show that although
4 wheel ABS has produced some safety benefit, the net result
from those crash statistics clearly indicates that these
benefits in practice are far lower than predicted from
engineering data and testing. e.g. single vehicle
fatal crashes on wet roads were reduced 24% on ABS
equipped vehicles, but the overall incidence of fatal
single vehicle crashes increased 28% with ABS. And the
safety ***** as well as the engineers that designed the
systems wanted to know why. [Obviously none of them have
ever driven in a Silicon Valley commute with a few soccer
moms glued to their asses.]
>
> It is not operator error, it is a defective attempt to compensate for
> drivers that were never trained how to drive.
Nothing wrong with ABS. Problem is just the drivers don't
engage it, end up sawing at the wheel, or think it is a
magical get out of jail free card to allow excessive speed
for conditions or following too closely.
Well, almost nothing. Not entirely sure how the ABS would
know the vehicle was on gravel all by its own inputs, but
with input from the shock absorbers it easily should be
able to figure out that it is best disabled.
>
> Same for air bags. Ever wonder why they are designed to stop an adult
> with no seat belt on? To compensate for fools on the roads.
To kill a few small women and kids to save those too stupid to
buckle up.
--
Fan of the dumbest team in America.
12-09-2003, 11:02 PM
#162
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Order Jeep -> Lose Rebate??
Roughly 12/9/03 18:39, Mike Romain's monkeys randomly typed:
> Del, the makers even state ABS has a longer braking distance.
Cite?
>
> There isn't any debate on that issue, do a google search.
Well, I did. And up coughed a paper from the Society of
Automotive Engineers, SAE 1999-01-1287.
The purpose of the study was to determine if situations and
or conditions occur where ABS equipped vehicles do not perform
as well as vehicles without ABS.
"For most maneuvers, on most surfaces, ABS-assisted stops
yielded distances shorter than those made with the ABS
disabled. The one exception was on loose gravel where
stopping distances increased by an average of 27.2
percent overall. [as you've noted many times, not a
good idea offroad]. Additionally the vehicular stability
observed during testing was almost always superior with
ABS. For the cases in which instability was observed,
ABS was not deemed responsible for its occurrence."
All of the tests were conducted in the same vehicle with and
without ABS, to avoid differences in basic vehicle stability.
Without ABS, a professional driver was used to implement
threshhold braking, with instrumentation to ensure that
at no time was more than one wheel locked during this
threshhold, aka, "best effort" braking. In every test
on dry concrete, the ABS beat this driver in every vehicle
tested. On wet Jennite with laden vehicles, the ABS beat
the human every time. Only on wet Jennite with lightly
loaded vehicles was the human able to beat ABS in one
test out of 8. Same results on wet asphalt, an expert
human beat the ABS only in 1 or 8 tests and only when
the vehicle is lightly loaded. ABS and heavy load
beat the human every time. And on wet grass. On
gravel, the human beat the heck out of ABS, light or
heavy load.
Full wheel locked panic stops didn't do so good...although
for most drivers they are still better than trying to use
threshhold braking due to lack of experience.
Same paper notes that crash databases clearly show that although
4 wheel ABS has produced some safety benefit, the net result
from those crash statistics clearly indicates that these
benefits in practice are far lower than predicted from
engineering data and testing. e.g. single vehicle
fatal crashes on wet roads were reduced 24% on ABS
equipped vehicles, but the overall incidence of fatal
single vehicle crashes increased 28% with ABS. And the
safety ***** as well as the engineers that designed the
systems wanted to know why. [Obviously none of them have
ever driven in a Silicon Valley commute with a few soccer
moms glued to their asses.]
>
> It is not operator error, it is a defective attempt to compensate for
> drivers that were never trained how to drive.
Nothing wrong with ABS. Problem is just the drivers don't
engage it, end up sawing at the wheel, or think it is a
magical get out of jail free card to allow excessive speed
for conditions or following too closely.
Well, almost nothing. Not entirely sure how the ABS would
know the vehicle was on gravel all by its own inputs, but
with input from the shock absorbers it easily should be
able to figure out that it is best disabled.
>
> Same for air bags. Ever wonder why they are designed to stop an adult
> with no seat belt on? To compensate for fools on the roads.
To kill a few small women and kids to save those too stupid to
buckle up.
--
Fan of the dumbest team in America.
> Del, the makers even state ABS has a longer braking distance.
Cite?
>
> There isn't any debate on that issue, do a google search.
Well, I did. And up coughed a paper from the Society of
Automotive Engineers, SAE 1999-01-1287.
The purpose of the study was to determine if situations and
or conditions occur where ABS equipped vehicles do not perform
as well as vehicles without ABS.
"For most maneuvers, on most surfaces, ABS-assisted stops
yielded distances shorter than those made with the ABS
disabled. The one exception was on loose gravel where
stopping distances increased by an average of 27.2
percent overall. [as you've noted many times, not a
good idea offroad]. Additionally the vehicular stability
observed during testing was almost always superior with
ABS. For the cases in which instability was observed,
ABS was not deemed responsible for its occurrence."
All of the tests were conducted in the same vehicle with and
without ABS, to avoid differences in basic vehicle stability.
Without ABS, a professional driver was used to implement
threshhold braking, with instrumentation to ensure that
at no time was more than one wheel locked during this
threshhold, aka, "best effort" braking. In every test
on dry concrete, the ABS beat this driver in every vehicle
tested. On wet Jennite with laden vehicles, the ABS beat
the human every time. Only on wet Jennite with lightly
loaded vehicles was the human able to beat ABS in one
test out of 8. Same results on wet asphalt, an expert
human beat the ABS only in 1 or 8 tests and only when
the vehicle is lightly loaded. ABS and heavy load
beat the human every time. And on wet grass. On
gravel, the human beat the heck out of ABS, light or
heavy load.
Full wheel locked panic stops didn't do so good...although
for most drivers they are still better than trying to use
threshhold braking due to lack of experience.
Same paper notes that crash databases clearly show that although
4 wheel ABS has produced some safety benefit, the net result
from those crash statistics clearly indicates that these
benefits in practice are far lower than predicted from
engineering data and testing. e.g. single vehicle
fatal crashes on wet roads were reduced 24% on ABS
equipped vehicles, but the overall incidence of fatal
single vehicle crashes increased 28% with ABS. And the
safety ***** as well as the engineers that designed the
systems wanted to know why. [Obviously none of them have
ever driven in a Silicon Valley commute with a few soccer
moms glued to their asses.]
>
> It is not operator error, it is a defective attempt to compensate for
> drivers that were never trained how to drive.
Nothing wrong with ABS. Problem is just the drivers don't
engage it, end up sawing at the wheel, or think it is a
magical get out of jail free card to allow excessive speed
for conditions or following too closely.
Well, almost nothing. Not entirely sure how the ABS would
know the vehicle was on gravel all by its own inputs, but
with input from the shock absorbers it easily should be
able to figure out that it is best disabled.
>
> Same for air bags. Ever wonder why they are designed to stop an adult
> with no seat belt on? To compensate for fools on the roads.
To kill a few small women and kids to save those too stupid to
buckle up.
--
Fan of the dumbest team in America.
12-09-2003, 11:02 PM
#163
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Order Jeep -> Lose Rebate??
Roughly 12/9/03 18:39, Mike Romain's monkeys randomly typed:
> Del, the makers even state ABS has a longer braking distance.
Cite?
>
> There isn't any debate on that issue, do a google search.
Well, I did. And up coughed a paper from the Society of
Automotive Engineers, SAE 1999-01-1287.
The purpose of the study was to determine if situations and
or conditions occur where ABS equipped vehicles do not perform
as well as vehicles without ABS.
"For most maneuvers, on most surfaces, ABS-assisted stops
yielded distances shorter than those made with the ABS
disabled. The one exception was on loose gravel where
stopping distances increased by an average of 27.2
percent overall. [as you've noted many times, not a
good idea offroad]. Additionally the vehicular stability
observed during testing was almost always superior with
ABS. For the cases in which instability was observed,
ABS was not deemed responsible for its occurrence."
All of the tests were conducted in the same vehicle with and
without ABS, to avoid differences in basic vehicle stability.
Without ABS, a professional driver was used to implement
threshhold braking, with instrumentation to ensure that
at no time was more than one wheel locked during this
threshhold, aka, "best effort" braking. In every test
on dry concrete, the ABS beat this driver in every vehicle
tested. On wet Jennite with laden vehicles, the ABS beat
the human every time. Only on wet Jennite with lightly
loaded vehicles was the human able to beat ABS in one
test out of 8. Same results on wet asphalt, an expert
human beat the ABS only in 1 or 8 tests and only when
the vehicle is lightly loaded. ABS and heavy load
beat the human every time. And on wet grass. On
gravel, the human beat the heck out of ABS, light or
heavy load.
Full wheel locked panic stops didn't do so good...although
for most drivers they are still better than trying to use
threshhold braking due to lack of experience.
Same paper notes that crash databases clearly show that although
4 wheel ABS has produced some safety benefit, the net result
from those crash statistics clearly indicates that these
benefits in practice are far lower than predicted from
engineering data and testing. e.g. single vehicle
fatal crashes on wet roads were reduced 24% on ABS
equipped vehicles, but the overall incidence of fatal
single vehicle crashes increased 28% with ABS. And the
safety ***** as well as the engineers that designed the
systems wanted to know why. [Obviously none of them have
ever driven in a Silicon Valley commute with a few soccer
moms glued to their asses.]
>
> It is not operator error, it is a defective attempt to compensate for
> drivers that were never trained how to drive.
Nothing wrong with ABS. Problem is just the drivers don't
engage it, end up sawing at the wheel, or think it is a
magical get out of jail free card to allow excessive speed
for conditions or following too closely.
Well, almost nothing. Not entirely sure how the ABS would
know the vehicle was on gravel all by its own inputs, but
with input from the shock absorbers it easily should be
able to figure out that it is best disabled.
>
> Same for air bags. Ever wonder why they are designed to stop an adult
> with no seat belt on? To compensate for fools on the roads.
To kill a few small women and kids to save those too stupid to
buckle up.
--
Fan of the dumbest team in America.
> Del, the makers even state ABS has a longer braking distance.
Cite?
>
> There isn't any debate on that issue, do a google search.
Well, I did. And up coughed a paper from the Society of
Automotive Engineers, SAE 1999-01-1287.
The purpose of the study was to determine if situations and
or conditions occur where ABS equipped vehicles do not perform
as well as vehicles without ABS.
"For most maneuvers, on most surfaces, ABS-assisted stops
yielded distances shorter than those made with the ABS
disabled. The one exception was on loose gravel where
stopping distances increased by an average of 27.2
percent overall. [as you've noted many times, not a
good idea offroad]. Additionally the vehicular stability
observed during testing was almost always superior with
ABS. For the cases in which instability was observed,
ABS was not deemed responsible for its occurrence."
All of the tests were conducted in the same vehicle with and
without ABS, to avoid differences in basic vehicle stability.
Without ABS, a professional driver was used to implement
threshhold braking, with instrumentation to ensure that
at no time was more than one wheel locked during this
threshhold, aka, "best effort" braking. In every test
on dry concrete, the ABS beat this driver in every vehicle
tested. On wet Jennite with laden vehicles, the ABS beat
the human every time. Only on wet Jennite with lightly
loaded vehicles was the human able to beat ABS in one
test out of 8. Same results on wet asphalt, an expert
human beat the ABS only in 1 or 8 tests and only when
the vehicle is lightly loaded. ABS and heavy load
beat the human every time. And on wet grass. On
gravel, the human beat the heck out of ABS, light or
heavy load.
Full wheel locked panic stops didn't do so good...although
for most drivers they are still better than trying to use
threshhold braking due to lack of experience.
Same paper notes that crash databases clearly show that although
4 wheel ABS has produced some safety benefit, the net result
from those crash statistics clearly indicates that these
benefits in practice are far lower than predicted from
engineering data and testing. e.g. single vehicle
fatal crashes on wet roads were reduced 24% on ABS
equipped vehicles, but the overall incidence of fatal
single vehicle crashes increased 28% with ABS. And the
safety ***** as well as the engineers that designed the
systems wanted to know why. [Obviously none of them have
ever driven in a Silicon Valley commute with a few soccer
moms glued to their asses.]
>
> It is not operator error, it is a defective attempt to compensate for
> drivers that were never trained how to drive.
Nothing wrong with ABS. Problem is just the drivers don't
engage it, end up sawing at the wheel, or think it is a
magical get out of jail free card to allow excessive speed
for conditions or following too closely.
Well, almost nothing. Not entirely sure how the ABS would
know the vehicle was on gravel all by its own inputs, but
with input from the shock absorbers it easily should be
able to figure out that it is best disabled.
>
> Same for air bags. Ever wonder why they are designed to stop an adult
> with no seat belt on? To compensate for fools on the roads.
To kill a few small women and kids to save those too stupid to
buckle up.
--
Fan of the dumbest team in America.
12-09-2003, 11:05 PM
#164
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Order Jeep -> Lose Rebate??
On 09 Dec 2003 05:33 PM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> A total lock of the wheels is the fastest stop, period.
I'm dumbfounded that somebody who spends as much time driving nasty road
conditions as you have can be this mistaken. If the wheels are locked,
they are sliding and the longest stopping distance will be the result.
> Threshold braking allows some control if needed. People aren't taught
> this.
Threshold braking limits the braking power at each wheel to that level
which keeps the wheel with the least traction from locking up. A good
ABS system will individually apply the maximum amount of braking power
that each wheel can handle without locking up, or at least as much as it
can while keeping directional stability. Threshold braking or not, I
can't do that and neither can you.
> ABS refuses to lock the wheels period. If you are on a real steep
> dirt or snow down hill, you will not be able to stop period.
Wait a second, I thought we were talking about driving on the road. Off
road, just pull the damn fuse and quit bitching about the ABS that you
no longer have. It is easy to do, takes only a few seconds, and is
reversible once the trail ride is over. Choosing not to get ABS with a
new jeep isn't reversible.
As far as a steep snow downhill, I haven't seen any amount of snow short
of a sizeable snowbank which will stop a rig from sliding downhill once
traction is broken. If the ABS won't stop you before you reach the
bottom, nothing else would have either.
> The tree or car at the bottom 'will' stop you fast though. Been there,
> watched that, then watched the second and third try with the ABS fuse
> pulled. He could then miss the tree.
Again, pull the fuse when off road and quitcher bitchin. It is not that
hard to do!
> Just go read the real stats on ABS from the national transportation
> safety council that Bill posted.
>
> The insurance companies also have similar studies and stats out.
As I have said before, those stats are just as easily explained by
driver stupidity and inability to operate the system correctly as they
are by some supposed defect in the whole concept of ABS. It is the
classic case of creating an idiot proof system, only to be confounded by
a better idiot.
> ABS is crap in emergency situations where you need a fast stop. It
> works well if you have the room or time to react. It is plain
> dangerous off road.
That runs counter to my direct, personal experience in ABS equipped
vehicles. I can say with certainty that my ABS has saved my vehicles
from the mistakes of others and probably one or two of my own. They are
not perfect. They are not a magic bullet. But they are a useful tool
for those of us who recognize their benefits. Sometimes they are a pain
in the ***, since I couldn't get the factory D-44 with my Jeep and can't
upgrade to rear disk brakes without ditching them. But I like them a
lot and still think that they are worth having in this nasty, shitty
weather we are getting here right now.
I don't understand the need some of you feel to bash ABS to the extent
that I see in this forum. They have advantages, and they have
disadvantages. I am all in favor of having all the information out
there for people to make an informed choice about whether or not to buy
them, but to say that they are flat out "crap" is simply untrue, and
does a disservice to the rest of the readership here.
One thing you will never see me do, is criticize somebody for their
decision to NOT buy abs because they felt they didn't need it, or
because they would rather have the D-44 axle option. That is their
personal choice and I wouldn't want to interfere.
----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
> A total lock of the wheels is the fastest stop, period.
I'm dumbfounded that somebody who spends as much time driving nasty road
conditions as you have can be this mistaken. If the wheels are locked,
they are sliding and the longest stopping distance will be the result.
> Threshold braking allows some control if needed. People aren't taught
> this.
Threshold braking limits the braking power at each wheel to that level
which keeps the wheel with the least traction from locking up. A good
ABS system will individually apply the maximum amount of braking power
that each wheel can handle without locking up, or at least as much as it
can while keeping directional stability. Threshold braking or not, I
can't do that and neither can you.
> ABS refuses to lock the wheels period. If you are on a real steep
> dirt or snow down hill, you will not be able to stop period.
Wait a second, I thought we were talking about driving on the road. Off
road, just pull the damn fuse and quit bitching about the ABS that you
no longer have. It is easy to do, takes only a few seconds, and is
reversible once the trail ride is over. Choosing not to get ABS with a
new jeep isn't reversible.
As far as a steep snow downhill, I haven't seen any amount of snow short
of a sizeable snowbank which will stop a rig from sliding downhill once
traction is broken. If the ABS won't stop you before you reach the
bottom, nothing else would have either.
> The tree or car at the bottom 'will' stop you fast though. Been there,
> watched that, then watched the second and third try with the ABS fuse
> pulled. He could then miss the tree.
Again, pull the fuse when off road and quitcher bitchin. It is not that
hard to do!
> Just go read the real stats on ABS from the national transportation
> safety council that Bill posted.
>
> The insurance companies also have similar studies and stats out.
As I have said before, those stats are just as easily explained by
driver stupidity and inability to operate the system correctly as they
are by some supposed defect in the whole concept of ABS. It is the
classic case of creating an idiot proof system, only to be confounded by
a better idiot.
> ABS is crap in emergency situations where you need a fast stop. It
> works well if you have the room or time to react. It is plain
> dangerous off road.
That runs counter to my direct, personal experience in ABS equipped
vehicles. I can say with certainty that my ABS has saved my vehicles
from the mistakes of others and probably one or two of my own. They are
not perfect. They are not a magic bullet. But they are a useful tool
for those of us who recognize their benefits. Sometimes they are a pain
in the ***, since I couldn't get the factory D-44 with my Jeep and can't
upgrade to rear disk brakes without ditching them. But I like them a
lot and still think that they are worth having in this nasty, shitty
weather we are getting here right now.
I don't understand the need some of you feel to bash ABS to the extent
that I see in this forum. They have advantages, and they have
disadvantages. I am all in favor of having all the information out
there for people to make an informed choice about whether or not to buy
them, but to say that they are flat out "crap" is simply untrue, and
does a disservice to the rest of the readership here.
One thing you will never see me do, is criticize somebody for their
decision to NOT buy abs because they felt they didn't need it, or
because they would rather have the D-44 axle option. That is their
personal choice and I wouldn't want to interfere.
----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
12-09-2003, 11:05 PM
#165
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Order Jeep -> Lose Rebate??
On 09 Dec 2003 05:33 PM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> A total lock of the wheels is the fastest stop, period.
I'm dumbfounded that somebody who spends as much time driving nasty road
conditions as you have can be this mistaken. If the wheels are locked,
they are sliding and the longest stopping distance will be the result.
> Threshold braking allows some control if needed. People aren't taught
> this.
Threshold braking limits the braking power at each wheel to that level
which keeps the wheel with the least traction from locking up. A good
ABS system will individually apply the maximum amount of braking power
that each wheel can handle without locking up, or at least as much as it
can while keeping directional stability. Threshold braking or not, I
can't do that and neither can you.
> ABS refuses to lock the wheels period. If you are on a real steep
> dirt or snow down hill, you will not be able to stop period.
Wait a second, I thought we were talking about driving on the road. Off
road, just pull the damn fuse and quit bitching about the ABS that you
no longer have. It is easy to do, takes only a few seconds, and is
reversible once the trail ride is over. Choosing not to get ABS with a
new jeep isn't reversible.
As far as a steep snow downhill, I haven't seen any amount of snow short
of a sizeable snowbank which will stop a rig from sliding downhill once
traction is broken. If the ABS won't stop you before you reach the
bottom, nothing else would have either.
> The tree or car at the bottom 'will' stop you fast though. Been there,
> watched that, then watched the second and third try with the ABS fuse
> pulled. He could then miss the tree.
Again, pull the fuse when off road and quitcher bitchin. It is not that
hard to do!
> Just go read the real stats on ABS from the national transportation
> safety council that Bill posted.
>
> The insurance companies also have similar studies and stats out.
As I have said before, those stats are just as easily explained by
driver stupidity and inability to operate the system correctly as they
are by some supposed defect in the whole concept of ABS. It is the
classic case of creating an idiot proof system, only to be confounded by
a better idiot.
> ABS is crap in emergency situations where you need a fast stop. It
> works well if you have the room or time to react. It is plain
> dangerous off road.
That runs counter to my direct, personal experience in ABS equipped
vehicles. I can say with certainty that my ABS has saved my vehicles
from the mistakes of others and probably one or two of my own. They are
not perfect. They are not a magic bullet. But they are a useful tool
for those of us who recognize their benefits. Sometimes they are a pain
in the ***, since I couldn't get the factory D-44 with my Jeep and can't
upgrade to rear disk brakes without ditching them. But I like them a
lot and still think that they are worth having in this nasty, shitty
weather we are getting here right now.
I don't understand the need some of you feel to bash ABS to the extent
that I see in this forum. They have advantages, and they have
disadvantages. I am all in favor of having all the information out
there for people to make an informed choice about whether or not to buy
them, but to say that they are flat out "crap" is simply untrue, and
does a disservice to the rest of the readership here.
One thing you will never see me do, is criticize somebody for their
decision to NOT buy abs because they felt they didn't need it, or
because they would rather have the D-44 axle option. That is their
personal choice and I wouldn't want to interfere.
----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
> A total lock of the wheels is the fastest stop, period.
I'm dumbfounded that somebody who spends as much time driving nasty road
conditions as you have can be this mistaken. If the wheels are locked,
they are sliding and the longest stopping distance will be the result.
> Threshold braking allows some control if needed. People aren't taught
> this.
Threshold braking limits the braking power at each wheel to that level
which keeps the wheel with the least traction from locking up. A good
ABS system will individually apply the maximum amount of braking power
that each wheel can handle without locking up, or at least as much as it
can while keeping directional stability. Threshold braking or not, I
can't do that and neither can you.
> ABS refuses to lock the wheels period. If you are on a real steep
> dirt or snow down hill, you will not be able to stop period.
Wait a second, I thought we were talking about driving on the road. Off
road, just pull the damn fuse and quit bitching about the ABS that you
no longer have. It is easy to do, takes only a few seconds, and is
reversible once the trail ride is over. Choosing not to get ABS with a
new jeep isn't reversible.
As far as a steep snow downhill, I haven't seen any amount of snow short
of a sizeable snowbank which will stop a rig from sliding downhill once
traction is broken. If the ABS won't stop you before you reach the
bottom, nothing else would have either.
> The tree or car at the bottom 'will' stop you fast though. Been there,
> watched that, then watched the second and third try with the ABS fuse
> pulled. He could then miss the tree.
Again, pull the fuse when off road and quitcher bitchin. It is not that
hard to do!
> Just go read the real stats on ABS from the national transportation
> safety council that Bill posted.
>
> The insurance companies also have similar studies and stats out.
As I have said before, those stats are just as easily explained by
driver stupidity and inability to operate the system correctly as they
are by some supposed defect in the whole concept of ABS. It is the
classic case of creating an idiot proof system, only to be confounded by
a better idiot.
> ABS is crap in emergency situations where you need a fast stop. It
> works well if you have the room or time to react. It is plain
> dangerous off road.
That runs counter to my direct, personal experience in ABS equipped
vehicles. I can say with certainty that my ABS has saved my vehicles
from the mistakes of others and probably one or two of my own. They are
not perfect. They are not a magic bullet. But they are a useful tool
for those of us who recognize their benefits. Sometimes they are a pain
in the ***, since I couldn't get the factory D-44 with my Jeep and can't
upgrade to rear disk brakes without ditching them. But I like them a
lot and still think that they are worth having in this nasty, shitty
weather we are getting here right now.
I don't understand the need some of you feel to bash ABS to the extent
that I see in this forum. They have advantages, and they have
disadvantages. I am all in favor of having all the information out
there for people to make an informed choice about whether or not to buy
them, but to say that they are flat out "crap" is simply untrue, and
does a disservice to the rest of the readership here.
One thing you will never see me do, is criticize somebody for their
decision to NOT buy abs because they felt they didn't need it, or
because they would rather have the D-44 axle option. That is their
personal choice and I wouldn't want to interfere.
----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
12-09-2003, 11:05 PM
#166
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Order Jeep -> Lose Rebate??
On 09 Dec 2003 05:33 PM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> A total lock of the wheels is the fastest stop, period.
I'm dumbfounded that somebody who spends as much time driving nasty road
conditions as you have can be this mistaken. If the wheels are locked,
they are sliding and the longest stopping distance will be the result.
> Threshold braking allows some control if needed. People aren't taught
> this.
Threshold braking limits the braking power at each wheel to that level
which keeps the wheel with the least traction from locking up. A good
ABS system will individually apply the maximum amount of braking power
that each wheel can handle without locking up, or at least as much as it
can while keeping directional stability. Threshold braking or not, I
can't do that and neither can you.
> ABS refuses to lock the wheels period. If you are on a real steep
> dirt or snow down hill, you will not be able to stop period.
Wait a second, I thought we were talking about driving on the road. Off
road, just pull the damn fuse and quit bitching about the ABS that you
no longer have. It is easy to do, takes only a few seconds, and is
reversible once the trail ride is over. Choosing not to get ABS with a
new jeep isn't reversible.
As far as a steep snow downhill, I haven't seen any amount of snow short
of a sizeable snowbank which will stop a rig from sliding downhill once
traction is broken. If the ABS won't stop you before you reach the
bottom, nothing else would have either.
> The tree or car at the bottom 'will' stop you fast though. Been there,
> watched that, then watched the second and third try with the ABS fuse
> pulled. He could then miss the tree.
Again, pull the fuse when off road and quitcher bitchin. It is not that
hard to do!
> Just go read the real stats on ABS from the national transportation
> safety council that Bill posted.
>
> The insurance companies also have similar studies and stats out.
As I have said before, those stats are just as easily explained by
driver stupidity and inability to operate the system correctly as they
are by some supposed defect in the whole concept of ABS. It is the
classic case of creating an idiot proof system, only to be confounded by
a better idiot.
> ABS is crap in emergency situations where you need a fast stop. It
> works well if you have the room or time to react. It is plain
> dangerous off road.
That runs counter to my direct, personal experience in ABS equipped
vehicles. I can say with certainty that my ABS has saved my vehicles
from the mistakes of others and probably one or two of my own. They are
not perfect. They are not a magic bullet. But they are a useful tool
for those of us who recognize their benefits. Sometimes they are a pain
in the ***, since I couldn't get the factory D-44 with my Jeep and can't
upgrade to rear disk brakes without ditching them. But I like them a
lot and still think that they are worth having in this nasty, shitty
weather we are getting here right now.
I don't understand the need some of you feel to bash ABS to the extent
that I see in this forum. They have advantages, and they have
disadvantages. I am all in favor of having all the information out
there for people to make an informed choice about whether or not to buy
them, but to say that they are flat out "crap" is simply untrue, and
does a disservice to the rest of the readership here.
One thing you will never see me do, is criticize somebody for their
decision to NOT buy abs because they felt they didn't need it, or
because they would rather have the D-44 axle option. That is their
personal choice and I wouldn't want to interfere.
----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
> A total lock of the wheels is the fastest stop, period.
I'm dumbfounded that somebody who spends as much time driving nasty road
conditions as you have can be this mistaken. If the wheels are locked,
they are sliding and the longest stopping distance will be the result.
> Threshold braking allows some control if needed. People aren't taught
> this.
Threshold braking limits the braking power at each wheel to that level
which keeps the wheel with the least traction from locking up. A good
ABS system will individually apply the maximum amount of braking power
that each wheel can handle without locking up, or at least as much as it
can while keeping directional stability. Threshold braking or not, I
can't do that and neither can you.
> ABS refuses to lock the wheels period. If you are on a real steep
> dirt or snow down hill, you will not be able to stop period.
Wait a second, I thought we were talking about driving on the road. Off
road, just pull the damn fuse and quit bitching about the ABS that you
no longer have. It is easy to do, takes only a few seconds, and is
reversible once the trail ride is over. Choosing not to get ABS with a
new jeep isn't reversible.
As far as a steep snow downhill, I haven't seen any amount of snow short
of a sizeable snowbank which will stop a rig from sliding downhill once
traction is broken. If the ABS won't stop you before you reach the
bottom, nothing else would have either.
> The tree or car at the bottom 'will' stop you fast though. Been there,
> watched that, then watched the second and third try with the ABS fuse
> pulled. He could then miss the tree.
Again, pull the fuse when off road and quitcher bitchin. It is not that
hard to do!
> Just go read the real stats on ABS from the national transportation
> safety council that Bill posted.
>
> The insurance companies also have similar studies and stats out.
As I have said before, those stats are just as easily explained by
driver stupidity and inability to operate the system correctly as they
are by some supposed defect in the whole concept of ABS. It is the
classic case of creating an idiot proof system, only to be confounded by
a better idiot.
> ABS is crap in emergency situations where you need a fast stop. It
> works well if you have the room or time to react. It is plain
> dangerous off road.
That runs counter to my direct, personal experience in ABS equipped
vehicles. I can say with certainty that my ABS has saved my vehicles
from the mistakes of others and probably one or two of my own. They are
not perfect. They are not a magic bullet. But they are a useful tool
for those of us who recognize their benefits. Sometimes they are a pain
in the ***, since I couldn't get the factory D-44 with my Jeep and can't
upgrade to rear disk brakes without ditching them. But I like them a
lot and still think that they are worth having in this nasty, shitty
weather we are getting here right now.
I don't understand the need some of you feel to bash ABS to the extent
that I see in this forum. They have advantages, and they have
disadvantages. I am all in favor of having all the information out
there for people to make an informed choice about whether or not to buy
them, but to say that they are flat out "crap" is simply untrue, and
does a disservice to the rest of the readership here.
One thing you will never see me do, is criticize somebody for their
decision to NOT buy abs because they felt they didn't need it, or
because they would rather have the D-44 axle option. That is their
personal choice and I wouldn't want to interfere.
----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
12-09-2003, 11:06 PM
#167
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Order Jeep -> Lose Rebate??
Geese guys, all the studies and the makers of the damn things say they
take longer to stop than manual brakes in a straight line stop like one
sees in traffic. Period!
They sacrifice some stopping distance for extra control.
Simple concept. Makes total sense to me.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Valued User wrote:
>
> Oh pavement, stopping distance is decreased when the tire is at maximum
> friction. A tire reaches maximum friction just as it is about to start
> sliding. ABS tries to keep keep the tire at its maximum friction level,
> therefore stopping the vehicle faster on pavement. Its simple (or maybe not)
> physics. When you hear a tire squealing, its because it has started moving
> with respect to the road which means that its taking longer to stop had it
> came to the point just before squealing.
>
> Note that all this does not apply to situations in which a locked tire can
> dig into the ground when ABS is bad because it keeps your tire from digging
> in.
>
> I'll stop getting ABS on my vehicles when the lawsuits keep the
> manufacturers from offering it.
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:3FD5EAA9.D0972080@sympatico.ca...
> > I would think it should be the other way around if you are in the
> > rear-end capital.
> >
> > ABS actually lengthens the stopping distance quite a bit. It sacrifices
> > stopping time to give steering control. Problem is in traffic there is
> > usually no place to steer to.....
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> >
> > Valued User wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm in houston and I can't find anything with ABS (even used) around
> here.
> > > Being rear-end capital of the world, you'd think everything would have
> ABS.
> > > Also, almost none of the Jeeps on anyone's lot has a hard/dual top. I
> guess
> > > people associate hard tops with keeping out the cold or something. Cold
> is a
> > > relative term, however. I'm from New Jersey and have spent a fair amount
> of
> > > time in the midwest. -70 wind chill is cold. I'll probably have my soft
> top
> > > on most of the time since it never really gets cold enough (for me) to
> not
> > > have the windows down.
> > >
> > > Trust me - if i found something with ABS and soft top, i'd have driven
> it
> > > off someones lot a few days ago.. I even considered looking in dallas
> (they
> > > get snow like once every 2 years) thinking I might be able to buy
> something
> > > with ABS.
> > >
> > > Dealer will honor the rebate and increase it if it increases upon
> delivery.
> > >
> > > ..and "weird" to this NG is a XJ without a dana 44! :-)
> > >
> > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > > news:vt7oes3iou5u87@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > You need to order from dealer stock to get the rebate. If you can find
> a
> > > > dual top with ABS on a lot somewhere, then you should be able to get
> the
> > > > rebate. Honestly, I don't see that you order is all that wierd, unless
> > > there
> > > > are other options that you haven't told us about.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Valued User" <valued@user.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:%bdAb.85626$Ek.584@twister.austin.rr.com...
> > > > > Exactly. You never know if they have my configuration sitting on a
> train
> > > > > waiting till the day after the rebate expires to call me and tell me
> its
> > > > > arrived so i can "take delivery" of it.
> > > > >
> > > > > I know I know theres a certain amount of trust involved but the
> dealer
> > > is
> > > > in
> > > > > business to make money.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in
> message
> > > > > news:20031205131634547-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> > > > > > On 05 Dec 2003 12:10 PM, mabar posted the following:
> > > > > > > Del:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The rebate applies to vehicles at the time of delivery only, so
> the
> > > > > > > rebate may or may not be available at the time an ordered
> vehicle
> > > > > > > arrives.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I guess if the original poster is happy doing business that way,
> but I
> > > > > > wouldn't agree to those terms.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> > > > > > Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> > > > > > Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> > > > > > http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
take longer to stop than manual brakes in a straight line stop like one
sees in traffic. Period!
They sacrifice some stopping distance for extra control.
Simple concept. Makes total sense to me.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Valued User wrote:
>
> Oh pavement, stopping distance is decreased when the tire is at maximum
> friction. A tire reaches maximum friction just as it is about to start
> sliding. ABS tries to keep keep the tire at its maximum friction level,
> therefore stopping the vehicle faster on pavement. Its simple (or maybe not)
> physics. When you hear a tire squealing, its because it has started moving
> with respect to the road which means that its taking longer to stop had it
> came to the point just before squealing.
>
> Note that all this does not apply to situations in which a locked tire can
> dig into the ground when ABS is bad because it keeps your tire from digging
> in.
>
> I'll stop getting ABS on my vehicles when the lawsuits keep the
> manufacturers from offering it.
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:3FD5EAA9.D0972080@sympatico.ca...
> > I would think it should be the other way around if you are in the
> > rear-end capital.
> >
> > ABS actually lengthens the stopping distance quite a bit. It sacrifices
> > stopping time to give steering control. Problem is in traffic there is
> > usually no place to steer to.....
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> >
> > Valued User wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm in houston and I can't find anything with ABS (even used) around
> here.
> > > Being rear-end capital of the world, you'd think everything would have
> ABS.
> > > Also, almost none of the Jeeps on anyone's lot has a hard/dual top. I
> guess
> > > people associate hard tops with keeping out the cold or something. Cold
> is a
> > > relative term, however. I'm from New Jersey and have spent a fair amount
> of
> > > time in the midwest. -70 wind chill is cold. I'll probably have my soft
> top
> > > on most of the time since it never really gets cold enough (for me) to
> not
> > > have the windows down.
> > >
> > > Trust me - if i found something with ABS and soft top, i'd have driven
> it
> > > off someones lot a few days ago.. I even considered looking in dallas
> (they
> > > get snow like once every 2 years) thinking I might be able to buy
> something
> > > with ABS.
> > >
> > > Dealer will honor the rebate and increase it if it increases upon
> delivery.
> > >
> > > ..and "weird" to this NG is a XJ without a dana 44! :-)
> > >
> > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > > news:vt7oes3iou5u87@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > You need to order from dealer stock to get the rebate. If you can find
> a
> > > > dual top with ABS on a lot somewhere, then you should be able to get
> the
> > > > rebate. Honestly, I don't see that you order is all that wierd, unless
> > > there
> > > > are other options that you haven't told us about.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Valued User" <valued@user.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:%bdAb.85626$Ek.584@twister.austin.rr.com...
> > > > > Exactly. You never know if they have my configuration sitting on a
> train
> > > > > waiting till the day after the rebate expires to call me and tell me
> its
> > > > > arrived so i can "take delivery" of it.
> > > > >
> > > > > I know I know theres a certain amount of trust involved but the
> dealer
> > > is
> > > > in
> > > > > business to make money.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in
> message
> > > > > news:20031205131634547-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> > > > > > On 05 Dec 2003 12:10 PM, mabar posted the following:
> > > > > > > Del:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The rebate applies to vehicles at the time of delivery only, so
> the
> > > > > > > rebate may or may not be available at the time an ordered
> vehicle
> > > > > > > arrives.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I guess if the original poster is happy doing business that way,
> but I
> > > > > > wouldn't agree to those terms.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> > > > > > Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> > > > > > Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> > > > > > http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
12-09-2003, 11:06 PM
#168
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Order Jeep -> Lose Rebate??
Geese guys, all the studies and the makers of the damn things say they
take longer to stop than manual brakes in a straight line stop like one
sees in traffic. Period!
They sacrifice some stopping distance for extra control.
Simple concept. Makes total sense to me.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Valued User wrote:
>
> Oh pavement, stopping distance is decreased when the tire is at maximum
> friction. A tire reaches maximum friction just as it is about to start
> sliding. ABS tries to keep keep the tire at its maximum friction level,
> therefore stopping the vehicle faster on pavement. Its simple (or maybe not)
> physics. When you hear a tire squealing, its because it has started moving
> with respect to the road which means that its taking longer to stop had it
> came to the point just before squealing.
>
> Note that all this does not apply to situations in which a locked tire can
> dig into the ground when ABS is bad because it keeps your tire from digging
> in.
>
> I'll stop getting ABS on my vehicles when the lawsuits keep the
> manufacturers from offering it.
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:3FD5EAA9.D0972080@sympatico.ca...
> > I would think it should be the other way around if you are in the
> > rear-end capital.
> >
> > ABS actually lengthens the stopping distance quite a bit. It sacrifices
> > stopping time to give steering control. Problem is in traffic there is
> > usually no place to steer to.....
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> >
> > Valued User wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm in houston and I can't find anything with ABS (even used) around
> here.
> > > Being rear-end capital of the world, you'd think everything would have
> ABS.
> > > Also, almost none of the Jeeps on anyone's lot has a hard/dual top. I
> guess
> > > people associate hard tops with keeping out the cold or something. Cold
> is a
> > > relative term, however. I'm from New Jersey and have spent a fair amount
> of
> > > time in the midwest. -70 wind chill is cold. I'll probably have my soft
> top
> > > on most of the time since it never really gets cold enough (for me) to
> not
> > > have the windows down.
> > >
> > > Trust me - if i found something with ABS and soft top, i'd have driven
> it
> > > off someones lot a few days ago.. I even considered looking in dallas
> (they
> > > get snow like once every 2 years) thinking I might be able to buy
> something
> > > with ABS.
> > >
> > > Dealer will honor the rebate and increase it if it increases upon
> delivery.
> > >
> > > ..and "weird" to this NG is a XJ without a dana 44! :-)
> > >
> > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > > news:vt7oes3iou5u87@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > You need to order from dealer stock to get the rebate. If you can find
> a
> > > > dual top with ABS on a lot somewhere, then you should be able to get
> the
> > > > rebate. Honestly, I don't see that you order is all that wierd, unless
> > > there
> > > > are other options that you haven't told us about.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Valued User" <valued@user.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:%bdAb.85626$Ek.584@twister.austin.rr.com...
> > > > > Exactly. You never know if they have my configuration sitting on a
> train
> > > > > waiting till the day after the rebate expires to call me and tell me
> its
> > > > > arrived so i can "take delivery" of it.
> > > > >
> > > > > I know I know theres a certain amount of trust involved but the
> dealer
> > > is
> > > > in
> > > > > business to make money.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in
> message
> > > > > news:20031205131634547-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> > > > > > On 05 Dec 2003 12:10 PM, mabar posted the following:
> > > > > > > Del:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The rebate applies to vehicles at the time of delivery only, so
> the
> > > > > > > rebate may or may not be available at the time an ordered
> vehicle
> > > > > > > arrives.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I guess if the original poster is happy doing business that way,
> but I
> > > > > > wouldn't agree to those terms.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> > > > > > Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> > > > > > Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> > > > > > http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
take longer to stop than manual brakes in a straight line stop like one
sees in traffic. Period!
They sacrifice some stopping distance for extra control.
Simple concept. Makes total sense to me.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Valued User wrote:
>
> Oh pavement, stopping distance is decreased when the tire is at maximum
> friction. A tire reaches maximum friction just as it is about to start
> sliding. ABS tries to keep keep the tire at its maximum friction level,
> therefore stopping the vehicle faster on pavement. Its simple (or maybe not)
> physics. When you hear a tire squealing, its because it has started moving
> with respect to the road which means that its taking longer to stop had it
> came to the point just before squealing.
>
> Note that all this does not apply to situations in which a locked tire can
> dig into the ground when ABS is bad because it keeps your tire from digging
> in.
>
> I'll stop getting ABS on my vehicles when the lawsuits keep the
> manufacturers from offering it.
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:3FD5EAA9.D0972080@sympatico.ca...
> > I would think it should be the other way around if you are in the
> > rear-end capital.
> >
> > ABS actually lengthens the stopping distance quite a bit. It sacrifices
> > stopping time to give steering control. Problem is in traffic there is
> > usually no place to steer to.....
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> >
> > Valued User wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm in houston and I can't find anything with ABS (even used) around
> here.
> > > Being rear-end capital of the world, you'd think everything would have
> ABS.
> > > Also, almost none of the Jeeps on anyone's lot has a hard/dual top. I
> guess
> > > people associate hard tops with keeping out the cold or something. Cold
> is a
> > > relative term, however. I'm from New Jersey and have spent a fair amount
> of
> > > time in the midwest. -70 wind chill is cold. I'll probably have my soft
> top
> > > on most of the time since it never really gets cold enough (for me) to
> not
> > > have the windows down.
> > >
> > > Trust me - if i found something with ABS and soft top, i'd have driven
> it
> > > off someones lot a few days ago.. I even considered looking in dallas
> (they
> > > get snow like once every 2 years) thinking I might be able to buy
> something
> > > with ABS.
> > >
> > > Dealer will honor the rebate and increase it if it increases upon
> delivery.
> > >
> > > ..and "weird" to this NG is a XJ without a dana 44! :-)
> > >
> > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > > news:vt7oes3iou5u87@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > You need to order from dealer stock to get the rebate. If you can find
> a
> > > > dual top with ABS on a lot somewhere, then you should be able to get
> the
> > > > rebate. Honestly, I don't see that you order is all that wierd, unless
> > > there
> > > > are other options that you haven't told us about.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Valued User" <valued@user.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:%bdAb.85626$Ek.584@twister.austin.rr.com...
> > > > > Exactly. You never know if they have my configuration sitting on a
> train
> > > > > waiting till the day after the rebate expires to call me and tell me
> its
> > > > > arrived so i can "take delivery" of it.
> > > > >
> > > > > I know I know theres a certain amount of trust involved but the
> dealer
> > > is
> > > > in
> > > > > business to make money.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in
> message
> > > > > news:20031205131634547-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> > > > > > On 05 Dec 2003 12:10 PM, mabar posted the following:
> > > > > > > Del:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The rebate applies to vehicles at the time of delivery only, so
> the
> > > > > > > rebate may or may not be available at the time an ordered
> vehicle
> > > > > > > arrives.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I guess if the original poster is happy doing business that way,
> but I
> > > > > > wouldn't agree to those terms.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> > > > > > Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> > > > > > Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> > > > > > http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
12-09-2003, 11:06 PM
#169
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Order Jeep -> Lose Rebate??
Geese guys, all the studies and the makers of the damn things say they
take longer to stop than manual brakes in a straight line stop like one
sees in traffic. Period!
They sacrifice some stopping distance for extra control.
Simple concept. Makes total sense to me.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Valued User wrote:
>
> Oh pavement, stopping distance is decreased when the tire is at maximum
> friction. A tire reaches maximum friction just as it is about to start
> sliding. ABS tries to keep keep the tire at its maximum friction level,
> therefore stopping the vehicle faster on pavement. Its simple (or maybe not)
> physics. When you hear a tire squealing, its because it has started moving
> with respect to the road which means that its taking longer to stop had it
> came to the point just before squealing.
>
> Note that all this does not apply to situations in which a locked tire can
> dig into the ground when ABS is bad because it keeps your tire from digging
> in.
>
> I'll stop getting ABS on my vehicles when the lawsuits keep the
> manufacturers from offering it.
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:3FD5EAA9.D0972080@sympatico.ca...
> > I would think it should be the other way around if you are in the
> > rear-end capital.
> >
> > ABS actually lengthens the stopping distance quite a bit. It sacrifices
> > stopping time to give steering control. Problem is in traffic there is
> > usually no place to steer to.....
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> >
> > Valued User wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm in houston and I can't find anything with ABS (even used) around
> here.
> > > Being rear-end capital of the world, you'd think everything would have
> ABS.
> > > Also, almost none of the Jeeps on anyone's lot has a hard/dual top. I
> guess
> > > people associate hard tops with keeping out the cold or something. Cold
> is a
> > > relative term, however. I'm from New Jersey and have spent a fair amount
> of
> > > time in the midwest. -70 wind chill is cold. I'll probably have my soft
> top
> > > on most of the time since it never really gets cold enough (for me) to
> not
> > > have the windows down.
> > >
> > > Trust me - if i found something with ABS and soft top, i'd have driven
> it
> > > off someones lot a few days ago.. I even considered looking in dallas
> (they
> > > get snow like once every 2 years) thinking I might be able to buy
> something
> > > with ABS.
> > >
> > > Dealer will honor the rebate and increase it if it increases upon
> delivery.
> > >
> > > ..and "weird" to this NG is a XJ without a dana 44! :-)
> > >
> > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > > news:vt7oes3iou5u87@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > You need to order from dealer stock to get the rebate. If you can find
> a
> > > > dual top with ABS on a lot somewhere, then you should be able to get
> the
> > > > rebate. Honestly, I don't see that you order is all that wierd, unless
> > > there
> > > > are other options that you haven't told us about.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Valued User" <valued@user.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:%bdAb.85626$Ek.584@twister.austin.rr.com...
> > > > > Exactly. You never know if they have my configuration sitting on a
> train
> > > > > waiting till the day after the rebate expires to call me and tell me
> its
> > > > > arrived so i can "take delivery" of it.
> > > > >
> > > > > I know I know theres a certain amount of trust involved but the
> dealer
> > > is
> > > > in
> > > > > business to make money.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in
> message
> > > > > news:20031205131634547-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> > > > > > On 05 Dec 2003 12:10 PM, mabar posted the following:
> > > > > > > Del:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The rebate applies to vehicles at the time of delivery only, so
> the
> > > > > > > rebate may or may not be available at the time an ordered
> vehicle
> > > > > > > arrives.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I guess if the original poster is happy doing business that way,
> but I
> > > > > > wouldn't agree to those terms.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> > > > > > Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> > > > > > Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> > > > > > http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
take longer to stop than manual brakes in a straight line stop like one
sees in traffic. Period!
They sacrifice some stopping distance for extra control.
Simple concept. Makes total sense to me.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Valued User wrote:
>
> Oh pavement, stopping distance is decreased when the tire is at maximum
> friction. A tire reaches maximum friction just as it is about to start
> sliding. ABS tries to keep keep the tire at its maximum friction level,
> therefore stopping the vehicle faster on pavement. Its simple (or maybe not)
> physics. When you hear a tire squealing, its because it has started moving
> with respect to the road which means that its taking longer to stop had it
> came to the point just before squealing.
>
> Note that all this does not apply to situations in which a locked tire can
> dig into the ground when ABS is bad because it keeps your tire from digging
> in.
>
> I'll stop getting ABS on my vehicles when the lawsuits keep the
> manufacturers from offering it.
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:3FD5EAA9.D0972080@sympatico.ca...
> > I would think it should be the other way around if you are in the
> > rear-end capital.
> >
> > ABS actually lengthens the stopping distance quite a bit. It sacrifices
> > stopping time to give steering control. Problem is in traffic there is
> > usually no place to steer to.....
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> >
> > Valued User wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm in houston and I can't find anything with ABS (even used) around
> here.
> > > Being rear-end capital of the world, you'd think everything would have
> ABS.
> > > Also, almost none of the Jeeps on anyone's lot has a hard/dual top. I
> guess
> > > people associate hard tops with keeping out the cold or something. Cold
> is a
> > > relative term, however. I'm from New Jersey and have spent a fair amount
> of
> > > time in the midwest. -70 wind chill is cold. I'll probably have my soft
> top
> > > on most of the time since it never really gets cold enough (for me) to
> not
> > > have the windows down.
> > >
> > > Trust me - if i found something with ABS and soft top, i'd have driven
> it
> > > off someones lot a few days ago.. I even considered looking in dallas
> (they
> > > get snow like once every 2 years) thinking I might be able to buy
> something
> > > with ABS.
> > >
> > > Dealer will honor the rebate and increase it if it increases upon
> delivery.
> > >
> > > ..and "weird" to this NG is a XJ without a dana 44! :-)
> > >
> > > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > > news:vt7oes3iou5u87@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > You need to order from dealer stock to get the rebate. If you can find
> a
> > > > dual top with ABS on a lot somewhere, then you should be able to get
> the
> > > > rebate. Honestly, I don't see that you order is all that wierd, unless
> > > there
> > > > are other options that you haven't told us about.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Valued User" <valued@user.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:%bdAb.85626$Ek.584@twister.austin.rr.com...
> > > > > Exactly. You never know if they have my configuration sitting on a
> train
> > > > > waiting till the day after the rebate expires to call me and tell me
> its
> > > > > arrived so i can "take delivery" of it.
> > > > >
> > > > > I know I know theres a certain amount of trust involved but the
> dealer
> > > is
> > > > in
> > > > > business to make money.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in
> message
> > > > > news:20031205131634547-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> > > > > > On 05 Dec 2003 12:10 PM, mabar posted the following:
> > > > > > > Del:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The rebate applies to vehicles at the time of delivery only, so
> the
> > > > > > > rebate may or may not be available at the time an ordered
> vehicle
> > > > > > > arrives.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I guess if the original poster is happy doing business that way,
> but I
> > > > > > wouldn't agree to those terms.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> > > > > > Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> > > > > > Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> > > > > > http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
12-09-2003, 11:17 PM
#170
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Order Jeep -> Lose Rebate??
Roughly 12/9/03 17:20, Del Rawlins's monkeys randomly typed:
> On 09 Dec 2003 10:31 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
>> Yup, they are just another 'failed' attempt to compensate for lack of
>> driver training.
>
> The increased stopping distances are a reflection of a lack of driver
> training with the new equipment, not of any problem with the ABS systems.
> You and I are not physically capable of outbraking a properly set up
> computer.
If the computer is purely ABS, that may be true for you, but
it has been proven to be not true for everybody. Particularly
in off-road situations where even a lockwheel stop is faster
than an ABS one--with today's control systems for ABS. And
on some slippery surfaces, racing drivers can beat ABS sometimes.
As for training, lecture style training even with visual aids
and movies has demonstrated no improvement in driver use of ABS.
They still do it wrong. Which may be why it is impossible to
get a racing license without instructor observed track time
where you bend the shiny parts until you figure out how not to.
Seems the biggest contribution to ABS accidents is that the ABS
allows the driver's insanely suicidal steering inputs to actually
have effect, whereas the same driver without ABS will usually
have the front wheels skidding enough that steering input
has far lower effect. Plus the drivers refuse to trust the
ABS and keep it engaged. Braking time for ABS enabled is
often slightly less than for disabled.
Which is why some vehicles have added yaw and slew rate controls
on top of ABS... drivers with none of the mandatory "body learning"
type experience it takes to learn how to use ABS...or not use it.
--
Fan of the dumbest team in America.
> On 09 Dec 2003 10:31 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
>> Yup, they are just another 'failed' attempt to compensate for lack of
>> driver training.
>
> The increased stopping distances are a reflection of a lack of driver
> training with the new equipment, not of any problem with the ABS systems.
> You and I are not physically capable of outbraking a properly set up
> computer.
If the computer is purely ABS, that may be true for you, but
it has been proven to be not true for everybody. Particularly
in off-road situations where even a lockwheel stop is faster
than an ABS one--with today's control systems for ABS. And
on some slippery surfaces, racing drivers can beat ABS sometimes.
As for training, lecture style training even with visual aids
and movies has demonstrated no improvement in driver use of ABS.
They still do it wrong. Which may be why it is impossible to
get a racing license without instructor observed track time
where you bend the shiny parts until you figure out how not to.
Seems the biggest contribution to ABS accidents is that the ABS
allows the driver's insanely suicidal steering inputs to actually
have effect, whereas the same driver without ABS will usually
have the front wheels skidding enough that steering input
has far lower effect. Plus the drivers refuse to trust the
ABS and keep it engaged. Braking time for ABS enabled is
often slightly less than for disabled.
Which is why some vehicles have added yaw and slew rate controls
on top of ABS... drivers with none of the mandatory "body learning"
type experience it takes to learn how to use ABS...or not use it.
--
Fan of the dumbest team in America.
