Roughly 12/9/03 17:20, Del Rawlins's monkeys randomly typed:

> On 09 Dec 2003 10:31 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
>> Yup, they are just another 'failed' attempt to compensate for lack of
>> driver training.
>
> The increased stopping distances are a reflection of a lack of driver
> training with the new equipment, not of any problem with the ABS systems.
> You and I are not physically capable of outbraking a properly set up
> computer.

If the computer is purely ABS, that may be true for you, but
it has been proven to be not true for everybody. Particularly
in off-road situations where even a lockwheel stop is faster
than an ABS one--with today's control systems for ABS. And
on some slippery surfaces, racing drivers can beat ABS sometimes.

As for training, lecture style training even with visual aids
and movies has demonstrated no improvement in driver use of ABS.
They still do it wrong. Which may be why it is impossible to
get a racing license without instructor observed track time
where you bend the shiny parts until you figure out how not to.

Seems the biggest contribution to ABS accidents is that the ABS
allows the driver's insanely suicidal steering inputs to actually
have effect, whereas the same driver without ABS will usually
have the front wheels skidding enough that steering input
has far lower effect. Plus the drivers refuse to trust the
ABS and keep it engaged. Braking time for ABS enabled is
often slightly less than for disabled.

Which is why some vehicles have added yaw and slew rate controls
on top of ABS... drivers with none of the mandatory "body learning"
type experience it takes to learn how to use ABS...or not use it.


--
Fan of the dumbest team in America.

 

Roughly 12/9/03 17:20, Del Rawlins's monkeys randomly typed:

> On 09 Dec 2003 10:31 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
>> Yup, they are just another 'failed' attempt to compensate for lack of
>> driver training.
>
> The increased stopping distances are a reflection of a lack of driver
> training with the new equipment, not of any problem with the ABS systems.
> You and I are not physically capable of outbraking a properly set up
> computer.

If the computer is purely ABS, that may be true for you, but
it has been proven to be not true for everybody. Particularly
in off-road situations where even a lockwheel stop is faster
than an ABS one--with today's control systems for ABS. And
on some slippery surfaces, racing drivers can beat ABS sometimes.

As for training, lecture style training even with visual aids
and movies has demonstrated no improvement in driver use of ABS.
They still do it wrong. Which may be why it is impossible to
get a racing license without instructor observed track time
where you bend the shiny parts until you figure out how not to.

Seems the biggest contribution to ABS accidents is that the ABS
allows the driver's insanely suicidal steering inputs to actually
have effect, whereas the same driver without ABS will usually
have the front wheels skidding enough that steering input
has far lower effect. Plus the drivers refuse to trust the
ABS and keep it engaged. Braking time for ABS enabled is
often slightly less than for disabled.

Which is why some vehicles have added yaw and slew rate controls
on top of ABS... drivers with none of the mandatory "body learning"
type experience it takes to learn how to use ABS...or not use it.


--
Fan of the dumbest team in America.

 

Roughly 12/9/03 19:46, Valued User's monkeys randomly typed:

> Oh pavement, stopping distance is decreased when the tire is at maximum
> friction. A tire reaches maximum friction just as it is about to start
> sliding. ABS tries to keep keep the tire at its maximum friction level,
> therefore stopping the vehicle faster on pavement. Its simple (or maybe not)
> physics.

Unfortunately, for the typical driver this is not the safest condition
if the driver is attempting to avoid something. Sliding wheels ignore
driver steering input, ABS cycling wheels allow suicidal inputs.
In actual crash statistics, the driver's excessive steering is more
dangerous than simply skidding more or less straight ahead.

> When you hear a tire squealing, its because it has started moving
> with respect to the road which means that its taking longer to stop had it
> came to the point just before squealing.

It isn't that simple. Many tires, particularly complex tread high
performance ones will play an entire symphony of tones as their
slip angles increase to the point where the tire tread essentially
becomes uncoupled from the road surface. Highly useful tunes
if you've managed to explore your tire and vehicle limits...which
can be pretty hairy in a high Cg vehicle.

--
Fan of the dumbest team in America.

 

Roughly 12/9/03 19:46, Valued User's monkeys randomly typed:

> Oh pavement, stopping distance is decreased when the tire is at maximum
> friction. A tire reaches maximum friction just as it is about to start
> sliding. ABS tries to keep keep the tire at its maximum friction level,
> therefore stopping the vehicle faster on pavement. Its simple (or maybe not)
> physics.

Unfortunately, for the typical driver this is not the safest condition
if the driver is attempting to avoid something. Sliding wheels ignore
driver steering input, ABS cycling wheels allow suicidal inputs.
In actual crash statistics, the driver's excessive steering is more
dangerous than simply skidding more or less straight ahead.

> When you hear a tire squealing, its because it has started moving
> with respect to the road which means that its taking longer to stop had it
> came to the point just before squealing.

It isn't that simple. Many tires, particularly complex tread high
performance ones will play an entire symphony of tones as their
slip angles increase to the point where the tire tread essentially
becomes uncoupled from the road surface. Highly useful tunes
if you've managed to explore your tire and vehicle limits...which
can be pretty hairy in a high Cg vehicle.

--
Fan of the dumbest team in America.

 

Roughly 12/9/03 19:46, Valued User's monkeys randomly typed:

> Oh pavement, stopping distance is decreased when the tire is at maximum
> friction. A tire reaches maximum friction just as it is about to start
> sliding. ABS tries to keep keep the tire at its maximum friction level,
> therefore stopping the vehicle faster on pavement. Its simple (or maybe not)
> physics.

Unfortunately, for the typical driver this is not the safest condition
if the driver is attempting to avoid something. Sliding wheels ignore
driver steering input, ABS cycling wheels allow suicidal inputs.
In actual crash statistics, the driver's excessive steering is more
dangerous than simply skidding more or less straight ahead.

> When you hear a tire squealing, its because it has started moving
> with respect to the road which means that its taking longer to stop had it
> came to the point just before squealing.

It isn't that simple. Many tires, particularly complex tread high
performance ones will play an entire symphony of tones as their
slip angles increase to the point where the tire tread essentially
becomes uncoupled from the road surface. Highly useful tunes
if you've managed to explore your tire and vehicle limits...which
can be pretty hairy in a high Cg vehicle.

--
Fan of the dumbest team in America.

 

"Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message
news:20031209163022090-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> On 09 Dec 2003 02:21 PM, CRWLR posted the following:
>
> > You will not find any ABS units with a D44 axle, and you can not order
> > ABS with a D44. So, if the D44 is part of the option package you are
> > looking for, give up on the ABS because you will not get it. The D44
> > is a much more valuable optin than the ABS, so do not insist on ABS if
> > you are thinking of the D44. Take the D44 without the ABS, and never
> > look back.
>
> That is easy enough for somebody living in southern california, who will
> never have any use for ABS to say. In snow and ice, ABS can be a real
> asset and after having it on my last 2 rigs, I wouldn't buy a new
> vehicle that didn't come with it. When was the last time you drove to
> work on icy, snow covered roads? I've been doing it every morning for
> the last month and a half and I like having ABS on my Jeep. Sure, a
> good driver can and will get by just fine without it, but it can be a
> valuable thing to have on occasion when the guy ahead of you does
> something dumb. Then there was the day that I tried to make that right
> hand turn too fast in my S-10 on the ice a few years ago. The ABS took
> me right around that corner and even kept me in my own lane; with
> standard brakes I most likely would have slid across the intersection
> and into the ditch, a victim of my own stupidity.
>
Don't get me wrong, ABS is a great thing to have. But, its main function is
to maintain directional stability (which you illusatrate very well), even if
the expense is a possibly longer stopping time and distance. Face it, if the
choice is sliding sideways down the road, or steerinig around an approaching
obsticle, I'll take the steering around stuff any day, even if it adds a few
feet to the stopping distance.



> As for the D-44 with ABS, you just can't get it that way from the
> factory. The aftermarket can provide you with an ABS equipped D-44, but
> you can expect to pay for the privelege of having your cake and eating
> it too.
>

That's what I meant. It is not an available option from the factory.

 

"Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message
news:20031209163022090-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> On 09 Dec 2003 02:21 PM, CRWLR posted the following:
>
> > You will not find any ABS units with a D44 axle, and you can not order
> > ABS with a D44. So, if the D44 is part of the option package you are
> > looking for, give up on the ABS because you will not get it. The D44
> > is a much more valuable optin than the ABS, so do not insist on ABS if
> > you are thinking of the D44. Take the D44 without the ABS, and never
> > look back.
>
> That is easy enough for somebody living in southern california, who will
> never have any use for ABS to say. In snow and ice, ABS can be a real
> asset and after having it on my last 2 rigs, I wouldn't buy a new
> vehicle that didn't come with it. When was the last time you drove to
> work on icy, snow covered roads? I've been doing it every morning for
> the last month and a half and I like having ABS on my Jeep. Sure, a
> good driver can and will get by just fine without it, but it can be a
> valuable thing to have on occasion when the guy ahead of you does
> something dumb. Then there was the day that I tried to make that right
> hand turn too fast in my S-10 on the ice a few years ago. The ABS took
> me right around that corner and even kept me in my own lane; with
> standard brakes I most likely would have slid across the intersection
> and into the ditch, a victim of my own stupidity.
>
Don't get me wrong, ABS is a great thing to have. But, its main function is
to maintain directional stability (which you illusatrate very well), even if
the expense is a possibly longer stopping time and distance. Face it, if the
choice is sliding sideways down the road, or steerinig around an approaching
obsticle, I'll take the steering around stuff any day, even if it adds a few
feet to the stopping distance.



> As for the D-44 with ABS, you just can't get it that way from the
> factory. The aftermarket can provide you with an ABS equipped D-44, but
> you can expect to pay for the privelege of having your cake and eating
> it too.
>

That's what I meant. It is not an available option from the factory.

 

"Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message
news:20031209163022090-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> On 09 Dec 2003 02:21 PM, CRWLR posted the following:
>
> > You will not find any ABS units with a D44 axle, and you can not order
> > ABS with a D44. So, if the D44 is part of the option package you are
> > looking for, give up on the ABS because you will not get it. The D44
> > is a much more valuable optin than the ABS, so do not insist on ABS if
> > you are thinking of the D44. Take the D44 without the ABS, and never
> > look back.
>
> That is easy enough for somebody living in southern california, who will
> never have any use for ABS to say. In snow and ice, ABS can be a real
> asset and after having it on my last 2 rigs, I wouldn't buy a new
> vehicle that didn't come with it. When was the last time you drove to
> work on icy, snow covered roads? I've been doing it every morning for
> the last month and a half and I like having ABS on my Jeep. Sure, a
> good driver can and will get by just fine without it, but it can be a
> valuable thing to have on occasion when the guy ahead of you does
> something dumb. Then there was the day that I tried to make that right
> hand turn too fast in my S-10 on the ice a few years ago. The ABS took
> me right around that corner and even kept me in my own lane; with
> standard brakes I most likely would have slid across the intersection
> and into the ditch, a victim of my own stupidity.
>
Don't get me wrong, ABS is a great thing to have. But, its main function is
to maintain directional stability (which you illusatrate very well), even if
the expense is a possibly longer stopping time and distance. Face it, if the
choice is sliding sideways down the road, or steerinig around an approaching
obsticle, I'll take the steering around stuff any day, even if it adds a few
feet to the stopping distance.



> As for the D-44 with ABS, you just can't get it that way from the
> factory. The aftermarket can provide you with an ABS equipped D-44, but
> you can expect to pay for the privelege of having your cake and eating
> it too.
>

That's what I meant. It is not an available option from the factory.

 

Roughly 12/9/03 20:06, Mike Romain's monkeys randomly typed:

> Geese guys, all the studies and the makers of the damn things say they
> take longer to stop than manual brakes in a straight line stop like one
> sees in traffic. Period!
>
> They sacrifice some stopping distance for extra control.
>
> Simple concept. Makes total sense to me.
>
Except that it is a misstatement of fact and a contradiction
of the SAE test results except on wedgeable surfaces. And worse
ignores the fact that the extra control itself contributes to
the fatalities.

Other than that I guess it could make sense if you'd actually
take the time to read the SAE tests where ABS does indeed stop
faster most of the time and where they also figure out why
the typical driver with ABS doesn't. Something ABS by itself
can't cure.

--
Fan of the dumbest team in America.

 

Roughly 12/9/03 20:06, Mike Romain's monkeys randomly typed:

> Geese guys, all the studies and the makers of the damn things say they
> take longer to stop than manual brakes in a straight line stop like one
> sees in traffic. Period!
>
> They sacrifice some stopping distance for extra control.
>
> Simple concept. Makes total sense to me.
>
Except that it is a misstatement of fact and a contradiction
of the SAE test results except on wedgeable surfaces. And worse
ignores the fact that the extra control itself contributes to
the fatalities.

Other than that I guess it could make sense if you'd actually
take the time to read the SAE tests where ABS does indeed stop
faster most of the time and where they also figure out why
the typical driver with ABS doesn't. Something ABS by itself
can't cure.

--
Fan of the dumbest team in America.