Order Jeep -> Lose Rebate??
12-09-2003, 10:34 PM
#151
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Order Jeep -> Lose Rebate??
Roughly 12/9/03 18:33, Mike Romain's monkeys randomly typed:
> Del Rawlins wrote:
>>
>> On 09 Dec 2003 10:31 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
>> > Yup, they are just another 'failed' attempt to compensate for lack of
>> > driver training.
>>
>> The increased stopping distances are a reflection of a lack of driver
>> training with the new equipment, not of any problem with the ABS systems.
>> You and I are not physically capable of outbraking a properly set up
>> computer.
>>
>
> LOL!
>
> Sure..... and Microsoft has the market cornered....
Don't be so optimistic. Microsoft Windows Automotive 4.2
operating system is yet another onslaught now that Windows
CE Automotive has managed a few applications.
And if you love the direction DC is taking Jeep,
>
> A total lock of the wheels is the fastest stop, period.
For pretty much all drivers, probably as true as it gets. For
folks and vehicles with decent feedback, not that true, as next
sentence implies.
>
> Threshold braking allows some control if needed. People aren't taught
> this.
People *are* taught this. However the only place I've ever been
taught this was in racing schools. And even some race drivers
will admit that on public roads, they themselves may just lock em
up in high puckerfactor situations...as long as the vehicle keeps
in a straight line. Which most vehicles will do when all 4
tires are sliding free due to lockage *if* it was started at a high
enough speed and brought on quickly enough so none of the
wheels grab. And then let go as speed drops to where differences
in tires or road surface begin to move the vehicle off a straight
line path. ABS can help with this phase as it can detect a
skidding wheel long before a human can and can release that wheel
far faster than any human can, and then reapply max braking long
before any human can. *IF* the human knows how to use ABS systems,
which most don't.
>
> ABS refuses to lock the wheels period. If you are on a real steep dirt
> or snow down hill, you will not be able to stop period.
Only if you manage to keep the vehicle above the threshhold speed
at which the ABS automatically disengages.
>
> Just go read the real stats on ABS from the national transportation
> safety council that Bill posted.
May be worth while reading some of the backing data as to why
ABS is useless on most vehicles... the driver never engages it
or is overly optimistic in what it can and can't do.
>
> The insurance companies also have similar studies and stats out.
And backing data as to the causes, which have more to do with
poor driver training than ABS itself.
>
> ABS is crap in emergency situations where you need a fast stop.
False. If the driver isn't a doofus, it will stop faster
than anything but a very very skilled race driver....except
where wedging of the surface material is available.
> It works well if you have the room or time to react.
False and falser. If you have limited time to react, simply
stomping on the brakes hard enough to engage the ABS and
keeping your foot there will stop any vehicle faster than
a skidding tire will... on most surfaces. Unfortunately
few people ever engage it, and most of the ones that do
tend to panic and take their foot off at the worst time.
> It is plain dangerous off road.
A bit strongly worded, but close enough to true.
--
Fan of the dumbest team in America.
> Del Rawlins wrote:
>>
>> On 09 Dec 2003 10:31 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
>> > Yup, they are just another 'failed' attempt to compensate for lack of
>> > driver training.
>>
>> The increased stopping distances are a reflection of a lack of driver
>> training with the new equipment, not of any problem with the ABS systems.
>> You and I are not physically capable of outbraking a properly set up
>> computer.
>>
>
> LOL!
>
> Sure..... and Microsoft has the market cornered....
Don't be so optimistic. Microsoft Windows Automotive 4.2
operating system is yet another onslaught now that Windows
CE Automotive has managed a few applications.
And if you love the direction DC is taking Jeep,
>
> A total lock of the wheels is the fastest stop, period.
For pretty much all drivers, probably as true as it gets. For
folks and vehicles with decent feedback, not that true, as next
sentence implies.
>
> Threshold braking allows some control if needed. People aren't taught
> this.
People *are* taught this. However the only place I've ever been
taught this was in racing schools. And even some race drivers
will admit that on public roads, they themselves may just lock em
up in high puckerfactor situations...as long as the vehicle keeps
in a straight line. Which most vehicles will do when all 4
tires are sliding free due to lockage *if* it was started at a high
enough speed and brought on quickly enough so none of the
wheels grab. And then let go as speed drops to where differences
in tires or road surface begin to move the vehicle off a straight
line path. ABS can help with this phase as it can detect a
skidding wheel long before a human can and can release that wheel
far faster than any human can, and then reapply max braking long
before any human can. *IF* the human knows how to use ABS systems,
which most don't.
>
> ABS refuses to lock the wheels period. If you are on a real steep dirt
> or snow down hill, you will not be able to stop period.
Only if you manage to keep the vehicle above the threshhold speed
at which the ABS automatically disengages.
>
> Just go read the real stats on ABS from the national transportation
> safety council that Bill posted.
May be worth while reading some of the backing data as to why
ABS is useless on most vehicles... the driver never engages it
or is overly optimistic in what it can and can't do.
>
> The insurance companies also have similar studies and stats out.
And backing data as to the causes, which have more to do with
poor driver training than ABS itself.
>
> ABS is crap in emergency situations where you need a fast stop.
False. If the driver isn't a doofus, it will stop faster
than anything but a very very skilled race driver....except
where wedging of the surface material is available.
> It works well if you have the room or time to react.
False and falser. If you have limited time to react, simply
stomping on the brakes hard enough to engage the ABS and
keeping your foot there will stop any vehicle faster than
a skidding tire will... on most surfaces. Unfortunately
few people ever engage it, and most of the ones that do
tend to panic and take their foot off at the worst time.
> It is plain dangerous off road.
A bit strongly worded, but close enough to true.
--
Fan of the dumbest team in America.
12-09-2003, 10:46 PM
#152
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Order Jeep -> Lose Rebate??
Oh pavement, stopping distance is decreased when the tire is at maximum
friction. A tire reaches maximum friction just as it is about to start
sliding. ABS tries to keep keep the tire at its maximum friction level,
therefore stopping the vehicle faster on pavement. Its simple (or maybe not)
physics. When you hear a tire squealing, its because it has started moving
with respect to the road which means that its taking longer to stop had it
came to the point just before squealing.
Note that all this does not apply to situations in which a locked tire can
dig into the ground when ABS is bad because it keeps your tire from digging
in.
I'll stop getting ABS on my vehicles when the lawsuits keep the
manufacturers from offering it.
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3FD5EAA9.D0972080@sympatico.ca...
> I would think it should be the other way around if you are in the
> rear-end capital.
>
> ABS actually lengthens the stopping distance quite a bit. It sacrifices
> stopping time to give steering control. Problem is in traffic there is
> usually no place to steer to.....
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> Valued User wrote:
> >
> > I'm in houston and I can't find anything with ABS (even used) around
here.
> > Being rear-end capital of the world, you'd think everything would have
ABS.
> > Also, almost none of the Jeeps on anyone's lot has a hard/dual top. I
guess
> > people associate hard tops with keeping out the cold or something. Cold
is a
> > relative term, however. I'm from New Jersey and have spent a fair amount
of
> > time in the midwest. -70 wind chill is cold. I'll probably have my soft
top
> > on most of the time since it never really gets cold enough (for me) to
not
> > have the windows down.
> >
> > Trust me - if i found something with ABS and soft top, i'd have driven
it
> > off someones lot a few days ago.. I even considered looking in dallas
(they
> > get snow like once every 2 years) thinking I might be able to buy
something
> > with ABS.
> >
> > Dealer will honor the rebate and increase it if it increases upon
delivery.
> >
> > ..and "weird" to this NG is a XJ without a dana 44! :-)
> >
> > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > news:vt7oes3iou5u87@corp.supernews.com...
> > > You need to order from dealer stock to get the rebate. If you can find
a
> > > dual top with ABS on a lot somewhere, then you should be able to get
the
> > > rebate. Honestly, I don't see that you order is all that wierd, unless
> > there
> > > are other options that you haven't told us about.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Valued User" <valued@user.com> wrote in message
> > > news:%bdAb.85626$Ek.584@twister.austin.rr.com...
> > > > Exactly. You never know if they have my configuration sitting on a
train
> > > > waiting till the day after the rebate expires to call me and tell me
its
> > > > arrived so i can "take delivery" of it.
> > > >
> > > > I know I know theres a certain amount of trust involved but the
dealer
> > is
> > > in
> > > > business to make money.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in
message
> > > > news:20031205131634547-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> > > > > On 05 Dec 2003 12:10 PM, mabar posted the following:
> > > > > > Del:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The rebate applies to vehicles at the time of delivery only, so
the
> > > > > > rebate may or may not be available at the time an ordered
vehicle
> > > > > > arrives.
> > > > >
> > > > > I guess if the original poster is happy doing business that way,
but I
> > > > > wouldn't agree to those terms.
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------
> > > > > Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> > > > > Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> > > > > Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> > > > > http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
friction. A tire reaches maximum friction just as it is about to start
sliding. ABS tries to keep keep the tire at its maximum friction level,
therefore stopping the vehicle faster on pavement. Its simple (or maybe not)
physics. When you hear a tire squealing, its because it has started moving
with respect to the road which means that its taking longer to stop had it
came to the point just before squealing.
Note that all this does not apply to situations in which a locked tire can
dig into the ground when ABS is bad because it keeps your tire from digging
in.
I'll stop getting ABS on my vehicles when the lawsuits keep the
manufacturers from offering it.
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3FD5EAA9.D0972080@sympatico.ca...
> I would think it should be the other way around if you are in the
> rear-end capital.
>
> ABS actually lengthens the stopping distance quite a bit. It sacrifices
> stopping time to give steering control. Problem is in traffic there is
> usually no place to steer to.....
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> Valued User wrote:
> >
> > I'm in houston and I can't find anything with ABS (even used) around
here.
> > Being rear-end capital of the world, you'd think everything would have
ABS.
> > Also, almost none of the Jeeps on anyone's lot has a hard/dual top. I
guess
> > people associate hard tops with keeping out the cold or something. Cold
is a
> > relative term, however. I'm from New Jersey and have spent a fair amount
of
> > time in the midwest. -70 wind chill is cold. I'll probably have my soft
top
> > on most of the time since it never really gets cold enough (for me) to
not
> > have the windows down.
> >
> > Trust me - if i found something with ABS and soft top, i'd have driven
it
> > off someones lot a few days ago.. I even considered looking in dallas
(they
> > get snow like once every 2 years) thinking I might be able to buy
something
> > with ABS.
> >
> > Dealer will honor the rebate and increase it if it increases upon
delivery.
> >
> > ..and "weird" to this NG is a XJ without a dana 44! :-)
> >
> > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > news:vt7oes3iou5u87@corp.supernews.com...
> > > You need to order from dealer stock to get the rebate. If you can find
a
> > > dual top with ABS on a lot somewhere, then you should be able to get
the
> > > rebate. Honestly, I don't see that you order is all that wierd, unless
> > there
> > > are other options that you haven't told us about.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Valued User" <valued@user.com> wrote in message
> > > news:%bdAb.85626$Ek.584@twister.austin.rr.com...
> > > > Exactly. You never know if they have my configuration sitting on a
train
> > > > waiting till the day after the rebate expires to call me and tell me
its
> > > > arrived so i can "take delivery" of it.
> > > >
> > > > I know I know theres a certain amount of trust involved but the
dealer
> > is
> > > in
> > > > business to make money.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in
message
> > > > news:20031205131634547-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> > > > > On 05 Dec 2003 12:10 PM, mabar posted the following:
> > > > > > Del:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The rebate applies to vehicles at the time of delivery only, so
the
> > > > > > rebate may or may not be available at the time an ordered
vehicle
> > > > > > arrives.
> > > > >
> > > > > I guess if the original poster is happy doing business that way,
but I
> > > > > wouldn't agree to those terms.
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------
> > > > > Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> > > > > Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> > > > > Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> > > > > http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
12-09-2003, 10:46 PM
#153
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Order Jeep -> Lose Rebate??
Oh pavement, stopping distance is decreased when the tire is at maximum
friction. A tire reaches maximum friction just as it is about to start
sliding. ABS tries to keep keep the tire at its maximum friction level,
therefore stopping the vehicle faster on pavement. Its simple (or maybe not)
physics. When you hear a tire squealing, its because it has started moving
with respect to the road which means that its taking longer to stop had it
came to the point just before squealing.
Note that all this does not apply to situations in which a locked tire can
dig into the ground when ABS is bad because it keeps your tire from digging
in.
I'll stop getting ABS on my vehicles when the lawsuits keep the
manufacturers from offering it.
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3FD5EAA9.D0972080@sympatico.ca...
> I would think it should be the other way around if you are in the
> rear-end capital.
>
> ABS actually lengthens the stopping distance quite a bit. It sacrifices
> stopping time to give steering control. Problem is in traffic there is
> usually no place to steer to.....
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> Valued User wrote:
> >
> > I'm in houston and I can't find anything with ABS (even used) around
here.
> > Being rear-end capital of the world, you'd think everything would have
ABS.
> > Also, almost none of the Jeeps on anyone's lot has a hard/dual top. I
guess
> > people associate hard tops with keeping out the cold or something. Cold
is a
> > relative term, however. I'm from New Jersey and have spent a fair amount
of
> > time in the midwest. -70 wind chill is cold. I'll probably have my soft
top
> > on most of the time since it never really gets cold enough (for me) to
not
> > have the windows down.
> >
> > Trust me - if i found something with ABS and soft top, i'd have driven
it
> > off someones lot a few days ago.. I even considered looking in dallas
(they
> > get snow like once every 2 years) thinking I might be able to buy
something
> > with ABS.
> >
> > Dealer will honor the rebate and increase it if it increases upon
delivery.
> >
> > ..and "weird" to this NG is a XJ without a dana 44! :-)
> >
> > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > news:vt7oes3iou5u87@corp.supernews.com...
> > > You need to order from dealer stock to get the rebate. If you can find
a
> > > dual top with ABS on a lot somewhere, then you should be able to get
the
> > > rebate. Honestly, I don't see that you order is all that wierd, unless
> > there
> > > are other options that you haven't told us about.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Valued User" <valued@user.com> wrote in message
> > > news:%bdAb.85626$Ek.584@twister.austin.rr.com...
> > > > Exactly. You never know if they have my configuration sitting on a
train
> > > > waiting till the day after the rebate expires to call me and tell me
its
> > > > arrived so i can "take delivery" of it.
> > > >
> > > > I know I know theres a certain amount of trust involved but the
dealer
> > is
> > > in
> > > > business to make money.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in
message
> > > > news:20031205131634547-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> > > > > On 05 Dec 2003 12:10 PM, mabar posted the following:
> > > > > > Del:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The rebate applies to vehicles at the time of delivery only, so
the
> > > > > > rebate may or may not be available at the time an ordered
vehicle
> > > > > > arrives.
> > > > >
> > > > > I guess if the original poster is happy doing business that way,
but I
> > > > > wouldn't agree to those terms.
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------
> > > > > Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> > > > > Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> > > > > Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> > > > > http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
friction. A tire reaches maximum friction just as it is about to start
sliding. ABS tries to keep keep the tire at its maximum friction level,
therefore stopping the vehicle faster on pavement. Its simple (or maybe not)
physics. When you hear a tire squealing, its because it has started moving
with respect to the road which means that its taking longer to stop had it
came to the point just before squealing.
Note that all this does not apply to situations in which a locked tire can
dig into the ground when ABS is bad because it keeps your tire from digging
in.
I'll stop getting ABS on my vehicles when the lawsuits keep the
manufacturers from offering it.
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3FD5EAA9.D0972080@sympatico.ca...
> I would think it should be the other way around if you are in the
> rear-end capital.
>
> ABS actually lengthens the stopping distance quite a bit. It sacrifices
> stopping time to give steering control. Problem is in traffic there is
> usually no place to steer to.....
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> Valued User wrote:
> >
> > I'm in houston and I can't find anything with ABS (even used) around
here.
> > Being rear-end capital of the world, you'd think everything would have
ABS.
> > Also, almost none of the Jeeps on anyone's lot has a hard/dual top. I
guess
> > people associate hard tops with keeping out the cold or something. Cold
is a
> > relative term, however. I'm from New Jersey and have spent a fair amount
of
> > time in the midwest. -70 wind chill is cold. I'll probably have my soft
top
> > on most of the time since it never really gets cold enough (for me) to
not
> > have the windows down.
> >
> > Trust me - if i found something with ABS and soft top, i'd have driven
it
> > off someones lot a few days ago.. I even considered looking in dallas
(they
> > get snow like once every 2 years) thinking I might be able to buy
something
> > with ABS.
> >
> > Dealer will honor the rebate and increase it if it increases upon
delivery.
> >
> > ..and "weird" to this NG is a XJ without a dana 44! :-)
> >
> > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > news:vt7oes3iou5u87@corp.supernews.com...
> > > You need to order from dealer stock to get the rebate. If you can find
a
> > > dual top with ABS on a lot somewhere, then you should be able to get
the
> > > rebate. Honestly, I don't see that you order is all that wierd, unless
> > there
> > > are other options that you haven't told us about.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Valued User" <valued@user.com> wrote in message
> > > news:%bdAb.85626$Ek.584@twister.austin.rr.com...
> > > > Exactly. You never know if they have my configuration sitting on a
train
> > > > waiting till the day after the rebate expires to call me and tell me
its
> > > > arrived so i can "take delivery" of it.
> > > >
> > > > I know I know theres a certain amount of trust involved but the
dealer
> > is
> > > in
> > > > business to make money.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in
message
> > > > news:20031205131634547-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> > > > > On 05 Dec 2003 12:10 PM, mabar posted the following:
> > > > > > Del:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The rebate applies to vehicles at the time of delivery only, so
the
> > > > > > rebate may or may not be available at the time an ordered
vehicle
> > > > > > arrives.
> > > > >
> > > > > I guess if the original poster is happy doing business that way,
but I
> > > > > wouldn't agree to those terms.
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------
> > > > > Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> > > > > Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> > > > > Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> > > > > http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
12-09-2003, 10:46 PM
#154
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Order Jeep -> Lose Rebate??
Oh pavement, stopping distance is decreased when the tire is at maximum
friction. A tire reaches maximum friction just as it is about to start
sliding. ABS tries to keep keep the tire at its maximum friction level,
therefore stopping the vehicle faster on pavement. Its simple (or maybe not)
physics. When you hear a tire squealing, its because it has started moving
with respect to the road which means that its taking longer to stop had it
came to the point just before squealing.
Note that all this does not apply to situations in which a locked tire can
dig into the ground when ABS is bad because it keeps your tire from digging
in.
I'll stop getting ABS on my vehicles when the lawsuits keep the
manufacturers from offering it.
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3FD5EAA9.D0972080@sympatico.ca...
> I would think it should be the other way around if you are in the
> rear-end capital.
>
> ABS actually lengthens the stopping distance quite a bit. It sacrifices
> stopping time to give steering control. Problem is in traffic there is
> usually no place to steer to.....
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> Valued User wrote:
> >
> > I'm in houston and I can't find anything with ABS (even used) around
here.
> > Being rear-end capital of the world, you'd think everything would have
ABS.
> > Also, almost none of the Jeeps on anyone's lot has a hard/dual top. I
guess
> > people associate hard tops with keeping out the cold or something. Cold
is a
> > relative term, however. I'm from New Jersey and have spent a fair amount
of
> > time in the midwest. -70 wind chill is cold. I'll probably have my soft
top
> > on most of the time since it never really gets cold enough (for me) to
not
> > have the windows down.
> >
> > Trust me - if i found something with ABS and soft top, i'd have driven
it
> > off someones lot a few days ago.. I even considered looking in dallas
(they
> > get snow like once every 2 years) thinking I might be able to buy
something
> > with ABS.
> >
> > Dealer will honor the rebate and increase it if it increases upon
delivery.
> >
> > ..and "weird" to this NG is a XJ without a dana 44! :-)
> >
> > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > news:vt7oes3iou5u87@corp.supernews.com...
> > > You need to order from dealer stock to get the rebate. If you can find
a
> > > dual top with ABS on a lot somewhere, then you should be able to get
the
> > > rebate. Honestly, I don't see that you order is all that wierd, unless
> > there
> > > are other options that you haven't told us about.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Valued User" <valued@user.com> wrote in message
> > > news:%bdAb.85626$Ek.584@twister.austin.rr.com...
> > > > Exactly. You never know if they have my configuration sitting on a
train
> > > > waiting till the day after the rebate expires to call me and tell me
its
> > > > arrived so i can "take delivery" of it.
> > > >
> > > > I know I know theres a certain amount of trust involved but the
dealer
> > is
> > > in
> > > > business to make money.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in
message
> > > > news:20031205131634547-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> > > > > On 05 Dec 2003 12:10 PM, mabar posted the following:
> > > > > > Del:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The rebate applies to vehicles at the time of delivery only, so
the
> > > > > > rebate may or may not be available at the time an ordered
vehicle
> > > > > > arrives.
> > > > >
> > > > > I guess if the original poster is happy doing business that way,
but I
> > > > > wouldn't agree to those terms.
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------
> > > > > Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> > > > > Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> > > > > Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> > > > > http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
friction. A tire reaches maximum friction just as it is about to start
sliding. ABS tries to keep keep the tire at its maximum friction level,
therefore stopping the vehicle faster on pavement. Its simple (or maybe not)
physics. When you hear a tire squealing, its because it has started moving
with respect to the road which means that its taking longer to stop had it
came to the point just before squealing.
Note that all this does not apply to situations in which a locked tire can
dig into the ground when ABS is bad because it keeps your tire from digging
in.
I'll stop getting ABS on my vehicles when the lawsuits keep the
manufacturers from offering it.
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3FD5EAA9.D0972080@sympatico.ca...
> I would think it should be the other way around if you are in the
> rear-end capital.
>
> ABS actually lengthens the stopping distance quite a bit. It sacrifices
> stopping time to give steering control. Problem is in traffic there is
> usually no place to steer to.....
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> Valued User wrote:
> >
> > I'm in houston and I can't find anything with ABS (even used) around
here.
> > Being rear-end capital of the world, you'd think everything would have
ABS.
> > Also, almost none of the Jeeps on anyone's lot has a hard/dual top. I
guess
> > people associate hard tops with keeping out the cold or something. Cold
is a
> > relative term, however. I'm from New Jersey and have spent a fair amount
of
> > time in the midwest. -70 wind chill is cold. I'll probably have my soft
top
> > on most of the time since it never really gets cold enough (for me) to
not
> > have the windows down.
> >
> > Trust me - if i found something with ABS and soft top, i'd have driven
it
> > off someones lot a few days ago.. I even considered looking in dallas
(they
> > get snow like once every 2 years) thinking I might be able to buy
something
> > with ABS.
> >
> > Dealer will honor the rebate and increase it if it increases upon
delivery.
> >
> > ..and "weird" to this NG is a XJ without a dana 44! :-)
> >
> > "CRWLR" <CRWLRJEFF@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
> > news:vt7oes3iou5u87@corp.supernews.com...
> > > You need to order from dealer stock to get the rebate. If you can find
a
> > > dual top with ABS on a lot somewhere, then you should be able to get
the
> > > rebate. Honestly, I don't see that you order is all that wierd, unless
> > there
> > > are other options that you haven't told us about.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Valued User" <valued@user.com> wrote in message
> > > news:%bdAb.85626$Ek.584@twister.austin.rr.com...
> > > > Exactly. You never know if they have my configuration sitting on a
train
> > > > waiting till the day after the rebate expires to call me and tell me
its
> > > > arrived so i can "take delivery" of it.
> > > >
> > > > I know I know theres a certain amount of trust involved but the
dealer
> > is
> > > in
> > > > business to make money.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in
message
> > > > news:20031205131634547-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> > > > > On 05 Dec 2003 12:10 PM, mabar posted the following:
> > > > > > Del:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The rebate applies to vehicles at the time of delivery only, so
the
> > > > > > rebate may or may not be available at the time an ordered
vehicle
> > > > > > arrives.
> > > > >
> > > > > I guess if the original poster is happy doing business that way,
but I
> > > > > wouldn't agree to those terms.
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------
> > > > > Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> > > > > Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> > > > > Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> > > > > http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
12-09-2003, 10:46 PM
#155
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Order Jeep -> Lose Rebate??
Finally!
"Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message
news:20031209161731031-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> On 09 Dec 2003 10:31 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> > Yup, they are just another 'failed' attempt to compensate for lack of
> > driver training.
>
> The increased stopping distances are a reflection of a lack of driver
> training with the new equipment, not of any problem with the ABS systems.
> You and I are not physically capable of outbraking a properly set up
> computer.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
"Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message
news:20031209161731031-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> On 09 Dec 2003 10:31 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> > Yup, they are just another 'failed' attempt to compensate for lack of
> > driver training.
>
> The increased stopping distances are a reflection of a lack of driver
> training with the new equipment, not of any problem with the ABS systems.
> You and I are not physically capable of outbraking a properly set up
> computer.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
12-09-2003, 10:46 PM
#156
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Order Jeep -> Lose Rebate??
Finally!
"Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message
news:20031209161731031-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> On 09 Dec 2003 10:31 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> > Yup, they are just another 'failed' attempt to compensate for lack of
> > driver training.
>
> The increased stopping distances are a reflection of a lack of driver
> training with the new equipment, not of any problem with the ABS systems.
> You and I are not physically capable of outbraking a properly set up
> computer.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
"Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message
news:20031209161731031-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> On 09 Dec 2003 10:31 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> > Yup, they are just another 'failed' attempt to compensate for lack of
> > driver training.
>
> The increased stopping distances are a reflection of a lack of driver
> training with the new equipment, not of any problem with the ABS systems.
> You and I are not physically capable of outbraking a properly set up
> computer.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
12-09-2003, 10:46 PM
#157
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Order Jeep -> Lose Rebate??
Finally!
"Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message
news:20031209161731031-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> On 09 Dec 2003 10:31 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> > Yup, they are just another 'failed' attempt to compensate for lack of
> > driver training.
>
> The increased stopping distances are a reflection of a lack of driver
> training with the new equipment, not of any problem with the ABS systems.
> You and I are not physically capable of outbraking a properly set up
> computer.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
"Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message
news:20031209161731031-0900@news.newsguy.com...
> On 09 Dec 2003 10:31 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> > Yup, they are just another 'failed' attempt to compensate for lack of
> > driver training.
>
> The increased stopping distances are a reflection of a lack of driver
> training with the new equipment, not of any problem with the ABS systems.
> You and I are not physically capable of outbraking a properly set up
> computer.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
12-09-2003, 10:57 PM
#158
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Order Jeep -> Lose Rebate??
Lots of 'if's' in there eh.
I raced when I was young so likely have an advantage over most drivers
when it comes to braking. 4 wheel drifts around corners was one of my
specialties....
Mike
Lon Stowell wrote:
>
> Roughly 12/9/03 18:33, Mike Romain's monkeys randomly typed:
>
> > Del Rawlins wrote:
> >>
> >> On 09 Dec 2003 10:31 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> >> > Yup, they are just another 'failed' attempt to compensate for lack of
> >> > driver training.
> >>
> >> The increased stopping distances are a reflection of a lack of driver
> >> training with the new equipment, not of any problem with the ABS systems.
> >> You and I are not physically capable of outbraking a properly set up
> >> computer.
> >>
> >
> > LOL!
> >
> > Sure..... and Microsoft has the market cornered....
>
> Don't be so optimistic. Microsoft Windows Automotive 4.2
> operating system is yet another onslaught now that Windows
> CE Automotive has managed a few applications.
>
> And if you love the direction DC is taking Jeep,
> >
> > A total lock of the wheels is the fastest stop, period.
>
> For pretty much all drivers, probably as true as it gets. For
> folks and vehicles with decent feedback, not that true, as next
> sentence implies.
> >
> > Threshold braking allows some control if needed. People aren't taught
> > this.
>
> People *are* taught this. However the only place I've ever been
> taught this was in racing schools. And even some race drivers
> will admit that on public roads, they themselves may just lock em
> up in high puckerfactor situations...as long as the vehicle keeps
> in a straight line. Which most vehicles will do when all 4
> tires are sliding free due to lockage *if* it was started at a high
> enough speed and brought on quickly enough so none of the
> wheels grab. And then let go as speed drops to where differences
> in tires or road surface begin to move the vehicle off a straight
> line path. ABS can help with this phase as it can detect a
> skidding wheel long before a human can and can release that wheel
> far faster than any human can, and then reapply max braking long
> before any human can. *IF* the human knows how to use ABS systems,
> which most don't.
> >
> > ABS refuses to lock the wheels period. If you are on a real steep dirt
> > or snow down hill, you will not be able to stop period.
>
> Only if you manage to keep the vehicle above the threshhold speed
> at which the ABS automatically disengages.
>
> >
> > Just go read the real stats on ABS from the national transportation
> > safety council that Bill posted.
>
> May be worth while reading some of the backing data as to why
> ABS is useless on most vehicles... the driver never engages it
> or is overly optimistic in what it can and can't do.
>
> >
> > The insurance companies also have similar studies and stats out.
>
> And backing data as to the causes, which have more to do with
> poor driver training than ABS itself.
> >
> > ABS is crap in emergency situations where you need a fast stop.
>
> False. If the driver isn't a doofus, it will stop faster
> than anything but a very very skilled race driver....except
> where wedging of the surface material is available.
>
> > It works well if you have the room or time to react.
>
> False and falser. If you have limited time to react, simply
> stomping on the brakes hard enough to engage the ABS and
> keeping your foot there will stop any vehicle faster than
> a skidding tire will... on most surfaces. Unfortunately
> few people ever engage it, and most of the ones that do
> tend to panic and take their foot off at the worst time.
>
> > It is plain dangerous off road.
>
> A bit strongly worded, but close enough to true.
>
> --
> Fan of the dumbest team in America.
I raced when I was young so likely have an advantage over most drivers
when it comes to braking. 4 wheel drifts around corners was one of my
specialties....
Mike
Lon Stowell wrote:
>
> Roughly 12/9/03 18:33, Mike Romain's monkeys randomly typed:
>
> > Del Rawlins wrote:
> >>
> >> On 09 Dec 2003 10:31 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> >> > Yup, they are just another 'failed' attempt to compensate for lack of
> >> > driver training.
> >>
> >> The increased stopping distances are a reflection of a lack of driver
> >> training with the new equipment, not of any problem with the ABS systems.
> >> You and I are not physically capable of outbraking a properly set up
> >> computer.
> >>
> >
> > LOL!
> >
> > Sure..... and Microsoft has the market cornered....
>
> Don't be so optimistic. Microsoft Windows Automotive 4.2
> operating system is yet another onslaught now that Windows
> CE Automotive has managed a few applications.
>
> And if you love the direction DC is taking Jeep,
> >
> > A total lock of the wheels is the fastest stop, period.
>
> For pretty much all drivers, probably as true as it gets. For
> folks and vehicles with decent feedback, not that true, as next
> sentence implies.
> >
> > Threshold braking allows some control if needed. People aren't taught
> > this.
>
> People *are* taught this. However the only place I've ever been
> taught this was in racing schools. And even some race drivers
> will admit that on public roads, they themselves may just lock em
> up in high puckerfactor situations...as long as the vehicle keeps
> in a straight line. Which most vehicles will do when all 4
> tires are sliding free due to lockage *if* it was started at a high
> enough speed and brought on quickly enough so none of the
> wheels grab. And then let go as speed drops to where differences
> in tires or road surface begin to move the vehicle off a straight
> line path. ABS can help with this phase as it can detect a
> skidding wheel long before a human can and can release that wheel
> far faster than any human can, and then reapply max braking long
> before any human can. *IF* the human knows how to use ABS systems,
> which most don't.
> >
> > ABS refuses to lock the wheels period. If you are on a real steep dirt
> > or snow down hill, you will not be able to stop period.
>
> Only if you manage to keep the vehicle above the threshhold speed
> at which the ABS automatically disengages.
>
> >
> > Just go read the real stats on ABS from the national transportation
> > safety council that Bill posted.
>
> May be worth while reading some of the backing data as to why
> ABS is useless on most vehicles... the driver never engages it
> or is overly optimistic in what it can and can't do.
>
> >
> > The insurance companies also have similar studies and stats out.
>
> And backing data as to the causes, which have more to do with
> poor driver training than ABS itself.
> >
> > ABS is crap in emergency situations where you need a fast stop.
>
> False. If the driver isn't a doofus, it will stop faster
> than anything but a very very skilled race driver....except
> where wedging of the surface material is available.
>
> > It works well if you have the room or time to react.
>
> False and falser. If you have limited time to react, simply
> stomping on the brakes hard enough to engage the ABS and
> keeping your foot there will stop any vehicle faster than
> a skidding tire will... on most surfaces. Unfortunately
> few people ever engage it, and most of the ones that do
> tend to panic and take their foot off at the worst time.
>
> > It is plain dangerous off road.
>
> A bit strongly worded, but close enough to true.
>
> --
> Fan of the dumbest team in America.
12-09-2003, 10:57 PM
#159
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Order Jeep -> Lose Rebate??
Lots of 'if's' in there eh.
I raced when I was young so likely have an advantage over most drivers
when it comes to braking. 4 wheel drifts around corners was one of my
specialties....
Mike
Lon Stowell wrote:
>
> Roughly 12/9/03 18:33, Mike Romain's monkeys randomly typed:
>
> > Del Rawlins wrote:
> >>
> >> On 09 Dec 2003 10:31 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> >> > Yup, they are just another 'failed' attempt to compensate for lack of
> >> > driver training.
> >>
> >> The increased stopping distances are a reflection of a lack of driver
> >> training with the new equipment, not of any problem with the ABS systems.
> >> You and I are not physically capable of outbraking a properly set up
> >> computer.
> >>
> >
> > LOL!
> >
> > Sure..... and Microsoft has the market cornered....
>
> Don't be so optimistic. Microsoft Windows Automotive 4.2
> operating system is yet another onslaught now that Windows
> CE Automotive has managed a few applications.
>
> And if you love the direction DC is taking Jeep,
> >
> > A total lock of the wheels is the fastest stop, period.
>
> For pretty much all drivers, probably as true as it gets. For
> folks and vehicles with decent feedback, not that true, as next
> sentence implies.
> >
> > Threshold braking allows some control if needed. People aren't taught
> > this.
>
> People *are* taught this. However the only place I've ever been
> taught this was in racing schools. And even some race drivers
> will admit that on public roads, they themselves may just lock em
> up in high puckerfactor situations...as long as the vehicle keeps
> in a straight line. Which most vehicles will do when all 4
> tires are sliding free due to lockage *if* it was started at a high
> enough speed and brought on quickly enough so none of the
> wheels grab. And then let go as speed drops to where differences
> in tires or road surface begin to move the vehicle off a straight
> line path. ABS can help with this phase as it can detect a
> skidding wheel long before a human can and can release that wheel
> far faster than any human can, and then reapply max braking long
> before any human can. *IF* the human knows how to use ABS systems,
> which most don't.
> >
> > ABS refuses to lock the wheels period. If you are on a real steep dirt
> > or snow down hill, you will not be able to stop period.
>
> Only if you manage to keep the vehicle above the threshhold speed
> at which the ABS automatically disengages.
>
> >
> > Just go read the real stats on ABS from the national transportation
> > safety council that Bill posted.
>
> May be worth while reading some of the backing data as to why
> ABS is useless on most vehicles... the driver never engages it
> or is overly optimistic in what it can and can't do.
>
> >
> > The insurance companies also have similar studies and stats out.
>
> And backing data as to the causes, which have more to do with
> poor driver training than ABS itself.
> >
> > ABS is crap in emergency situations where you need a fast stop.
>
> False. If the driver isn't a doofus, it will stop faster
> than anything but a very very skilled race driver....except
> where wedging of the surface material is available.
>
> > It works well if you have the room or time to react.
>
> False and falser. If you have limited time to react, simply
> stomping on the brakes hard enough to engage the ABS and
> keeping your foot there will stop any vehicle faster than
> a skidding tire will... on most surfaces. Unfortunately
> few people ever engage it, and most of the ones that do
> tend to panic and take their foot off at the worst time.
>
> > It is plain dangerous off road.
>
> A bit strongly worded, but close enough to true.
>
> --
> Fan of the dumbest team in America.
I raced when I was young so likely have an advantage over most drivers
when it comes to braking. 4 wheel drifts around corners was one of my
specialties....
Mike
Lon Stowell wrote:
>
> Roughly 12/9/03 18:33, Mike Romain's monkeys randomly typed:
>
> > Del Rawlins wrote:
> >>
> >> On 09 Dec 2003 10:31 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> >> > Yup, they are just another 'failed' attempt to compensate for lack of
> >> > driver training.
> >>
> >> The increased stopping distances are a reflection of a lack of driver
> >> training with the new equipment, not of any problem with the ABS systems.
> >> You and I are not physically capable of outbraking a properly set up
> >> computer.
> >>
> >
> > LOL!
> >
> > Sure..... and Microsoft has the market cornered....
>
> Don't be so optimistic. Microsoft Windows Automotive 4.2
> operating system is yet another onslaught now that Windows
> CE Automotive has managed a few applications.
>
> And if you love the direction DC is taking Jeep,
> >
> > A total lock of the wheels is the fastest stop, period.
>
> For pretty much all drivers, probably as true as it gets. For
> folks and vehicles with decent feedback, not that true, as next
> sentence implies.
> >
> > Threshold braking allows some control if needed. People aren't taught
> > this.
>
> People *are* taught this. However the only place I've ever been
> taught this was in racing schools. And even some race drivers
> will admit that on public roads, they themselves may just lock em
> up in high puckerfactor situations...as long as the vehicle keeps
> in a straight line. Which most vehicles will do when all 4
> tires are sliding free due to lockage *if* it was started at a high
> enough speed and brought on quickly enough so none of the
> wheels grab. And then let go as speed drops to where differences
> in tires or road surface begin to move the vehicle off a straight
> line path. ABS can help with this phase as it can detect a
> skidding wheel long before a human can and can release that wheel
> far faster than any human can, and then reapply max braking long
> before any human can. *IF* the human knows how to use ABS systems,
> which most don't.
> >
> > ABS refuses to lock the wheels period. If you are on a real steep dirt
> > or snow down hill, you will not be able to stop period.
>
> Only if you manage to keep the vehicle above the threshhold speed
> at which the ABS automatically disengages.
>
> >
> > Just go read the real stats on ABS from the national transportation
> > safety council that Bill posted.
>
> May be worth while reading some of the backing data as to why
> ABS is useless on most vehicles... the driver never engages it
> or is overly optimistic in what it can and can't do.
>
> >
> > The insurance companies also have similar studies and stats out.
>
> And backing data as to the causes, which have more to do with
> poor driver training than ABS itself.
> >
> > ABS is crap in emergency situations where you need a fast stop.
>
> False. If the driver isn't a doofus, it will stop faster
> than anything but a very very skilled race driver....except
> where wedging of the surface material is available.
>
> > It works well if you have the room or time to react.
>
> False and falser. If you have limited time to react, simply
> stomping on the brakes hard enough to engage the ABS and
> keeping your foot there will stop any vehicle faster than
> a skidding tire will... on most surfaces. Unfortunately
> few people ever engage it, and most of the ones that do
> tend to panic and take their foot off at the worst time.
>
> > It is plain dangerous off road.
>
> A bit strongly worded, but close enough to true.
>
> --
> Fan of the dumbest team in America.
12-09-2003, 10:57 PM
#160
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Order Jeep -> Lose Rebate??
Lots of 'if's' in there eh.
I raced when I was young so likely have an advantage over most drivers
when it comes to braking. 4 wheel drifts around corners was one of my
specialties....
Mike
Lon Stowell wrote:
>
> Roughly 12/9/03 18:33, Mike Romain's monkeys randomly typed:
>
> > Del Rawlins wrote:
> >>
> >> On 09 Dec 2003 10:31 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> >> > Yup, they are just another 'failed' attempt to compensate for lack of
> >> > driver training.
> >>
> >> The increased stopping distances are a reflection of a lack of driver
> >> training with the new equipment, not of any problem with the ABS systems.
> >> You and I are not physically capable of outbraking a properly set up
> >> computer.
> >>
> >
> > LOL!
> >
> > Sure..... and Microsoft has the market cornered....
>
> Don't be so optimistic. Microsoft Windows Automotive 4.2
> operating system is yet another onslaught now that Windows
> CE Automotive has managed a few applications.
>
> And if you love the direction DC is taking Jeep,
> >
> > A total lock of the wheels is the fastest stop, period.
>
> For pretty much all drivers, probably as true as it gets. For
> folks and vehicles with decent feedback, not that true, as next
> sentence implies.
> >
> > Threshold braking allows some control if needed. People aren't taught
> > this.
>
> People *are* taught this. However the only place I've ever been
> taught this was in racing schools. And even some race drivers
> will admit that on public roads, they themselves may just lock em
> up in high puckerfactor situations...as long as the vehicle keeps
> in a straight line. Which most vehicles will do when all 4
> tires are sliding free due to lockage *if* it was started at a high
> enough speed and brought on quickly enough so none of the
> wheels grab. And then let go as speed drops to where differences
> in tires or road surface begin to move the vehicle off a straight
> line path. ABS can help with this phase as it can detect a
> skidding wheel long before a human can and can release that wheel
> far faster than any human can, and then reapply max braking long
> before any human can. *IF* the human knows how to use ABS systems,
> which most don't.
> >
> > ABS refuses to lock the wheels period. If you are on a real steep dirt
> > or snow down hill, you will not be able to stop period.
>
> Only if you manage to keep the vehicle above the threshhold speed
> at which the ABS automatically disengages.
>
> >
> > Just go read the real stats on ABS from the national transportation
> > safety council that Bill posted.
>
> May be worth while reading some of the backing data as to why
> ABS is useless on most vehicles... the driver never engages it
> or is overly optimistic in what it can and can't do.
>
> >
> > The insurance companies also have similar studies and stats out.
>
> And backing data as to the causes, which have more to do with
> poor driver training than ABS itself.
> >
> > ABS is crap in emergency situations where you need a fast stop.
>
> False. If the driver isn't a doofus, it will stop faster
> than anything but a very very skilled race driver....except
> where wedging of the surface material is available.
>
> > It works well if you have the room or time to react.
>
> False and falser. If you have limited time to react, simply
> stomping on the brakes hard enough to engage the ABS and
> keeping your foot there will stop any vehicle faster than
> a skidding tire will... on most surfaces. Unfortunately
> few people ever engage it, and most of the ones that do
> tend to panic and take their foot off at the worst time.
>
> > It is plain dangerous off road.
>
> A bit strongly worded, but close enough to true.
>
> --
> Fan of the dumbest team in America.
I raced when I was young so likely have an advantage over most drivers
when it comes to braking. 4 wheel drifts around corners was one of my
specialties....
Mike
Lon Stowell wrote:
>
> Roughly 12/9/03 18:33, Mike Romain's monkeys randomly typed:
>
> > Del Rawlins wrote:
> >>
> >> On 09 Dec 2003 10:31 AM, Mike Romain posted the following:
> >> > Yup, they are just another 'failed' attempt to compensate for lack of
> >> > driver training.
> >>
> >> The increased stopping distances are a reflection of a lack of driver
> >> training with the new equipment, not of any problem with the ABS systems.
> >> You and I are not physically capable of outbraking a properly set up
> >> computer.
> >>
> >
> > LOL!
> >
> > Sure..... and Microsoft has the market cornered....
>
> Don't be so optimistic. Microsoft Windows Automotive 4.2
> operating system is yet another onslaught now that Windows
> CE Automotive has managed a few applications.
>
> And if you love the direction DC is taking Jeep,
> >
> > A total lock of the wheels is the fastest stop, period.
>
> For pretty much all drivers, probably as true as it gets. For
> folks and vehicles with decent feedback, not that true, as next
> sentence implies.
> >
> > Threshold braking allows some control if needed. People aren't taught
> > this.
>
> People *are* taught this. However the only place I've ever been
> taught this was in racing schools. And even some race drivers
> will admit that on public roads, they themselves may just lock em
> up in high puckerfactor situations...as long as the vehicle keeps
> in a straight line. Which most vehicles will do when all 4
> tires are sliding free due to lockage *if* it was started at a high
> enough speed and brought on quickly enough so none of the
> wheels grab. And then let go as speed drops to where differences
> in tires or road surface begin to move the vehicle off a straight
> line path. ABS can help with this phase as it can detect a
> skidding wheel long before a human can and can release that wheel
> far faster than any human can, and then reapply max braking long
> before any human can. *IF* the human knows how to use ABS systems,
> which most don't.
> >
> > ABS refuses to lock the wheels period. If you are on a real steep dirt
> > or snow down hill, you will not be able to stop period.
>
> Only if you manage to keep the vehicle above the threshhold speed
> at which the ABS automatically disengages.
>
> >
> > Just go read the real stats on ABS from the national transportation
> > safety council that Bill posted.
>
> May be worth while reading some of the backing data as to why
> ABS is useless on most vehicles... the driver never engages it
> or is overly optimistic in what it can and can't do.
>
> >
> > The insurance companies also have similar studies and stats out.
>
> And backing data as to the causes, which have more to do with
> poor driver training than ABS itself.
> >
> > ABS is crap in emergency situations where you need a fast stop.
>
> False. If the driver isn't a doofus, it will stop faster
> than anything but a very very skilled race driver....except
> where wedging of the surface material is available.
>
> > It works well if you have the room or time to react.
>
> False and falser. If you have limited time to react, simply
> stomping on the brakes hard enough to engage the ABS and
> keeping your foot there will stop any vehicle faster than
> a skidding tire will... on most surfaces. Unfortunately
> few people ever engage it, and most of the ones that do
> tend to panic and take their foot off at the worst time.
>
> > It is plain dangerous off road.
>
> A bit strongly worded, but close enough to true.
>
> --
> Fan of the dumbest team in America.