Re: Opinions on Fram Toughguard oil filters?
 

Hmm--

Ok are we saying here that it's ok to use a filter other than the mfg
recommended number as long as it's larger and the threads and size match?

--
Skip


"Rich Hampel" <RhmpL33@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:020220041603468492%RhmpL33@nospam.net...
> Virtually ALL the automotive market filters are IDENTICAL in retention
> performance. Its not the fancy paint job on the canister nor the
> marketing hype that retains particulate but the resinated filtration
> media inside the filter. Since ALL filter manufacturers PURCHASE the
> filter media from essentially the SAME paper mills (depending on the
> best price at the time) how can there be any difference?
>
> If the filtration media is essentially the same, the ONLY functional
> difference of importance is the **internal surface area of the filter
> media**. So.... if you want the BEST filter, buy the LARGEST
> (cheapest) filter that will fit. .... and change it often.
>
> All the automotive filter comparisons on the 'web' are quite
> 'laughable' on a technical basis and do not compare actual particullate
> performance nor retention ability. If you want the BEST, buy the
> LARGEST that will fit, but cheap and often.
>
> This is recirculation filtration (if the particle doesnt get trapped
> the first time, it will get captured the next pass or the next, etc.
> etc. etc.. If you had enough volume or surface area, you could use
> compressed pubic hair as the filtration media to do the exact same
> retention job.!!!!!!!!!!
>
> respectfully submitted by a 'filtration' engineer.

Re: Opinions on Fram Toughguard oil filters?
 

I hear if you put Mobil 1 into a high miles engine it will introduce leaks
in the seals...

Opinions???

--
Skip


"Simon Juncal" <SPAMERSSUCK@usefirstinitialandlastnameATerols.com > wrote in
message news:401EB407.2090600@usefirstinitialandlastnameAT erols.com...
> Mike Romain wrote:
> > Well, you said it...
> >
> > You had a dead engine before 100 K miles.
> >
> > Most folks get 200 to 300K before they have to do engine work on the
> > 258's or 4.0's.
> >
> > Your method obviously doesn't work at all....
>
> I would definitely not go with his method either. Mobil 1 is cheap
> enough these days ($18 for a 5 quart jug at wal-mart, or approximately
> twice as much at bargain price dino oil). And no matter how good the oil
> is the filter is bound to miss or reintroduce some stuff. That said:
>
> > Oil builds up contaminants from combustion and needs to be changed on a
> > regular schedule no matter how fancy the oil....
>
> I'm not an oil expert but I did do a lot of reading on synthetics in
> preparation to recommending them (or not) to be used in the fleet
> vehicles of the company I work for.
>
> As I understand it pure synthetics like Mobil 1 do not have the same
> sort of interaction that dino oil does in the combustion chamber, it
> never gets the "varnish" that eventually turns into sludge. In addition
> it is extremely good as devolving away any sludge that already exists
> (if you're putting it in an engine that is already sludged up).
> Basically dino oil no matter how well it's refined has organic matter
> that burns at combustion temps, the oil traps it and most of it is too
> small to get filtered eventually like sediment it ends up in nooks and
> crannies, and you eventually get clogged oil galleys sludged up valves
> etc. Synthetics don't produce the combustion by products in the first
place.
>
> However it does have additives that become less effective over time just
> like dino oil, and that is why it's generally recommended to change it
> and the filter at normal 3000 miles intervals, even though it may look
> just as clear as the day you put it in there.
>
> It is also considered much better for hard driving (towing and off-road)
> tends to leave a good layer of oil on parts that dino oil drains off of
> faster (in terms of start up friction). This is supposedly where pure
> synthetics add most of their wear reduction benefit. It has a much lower
> friction coefficient at startup and remains much slicker while warming
> up until more is pulled up and is flowing into all the vital spots.
>
> --
> Simon
> "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein
>

Re: Opinions on Fram Toughguard oil filters?
 

I hear if you put Mobil 1 into a high miles engine it will introduce leaks
in the seals...

Opinions???

--
Skip


"Simon Juncal" <SPAMERSSUCK@usefirstinitialandlastnameATerols.com > wrote in
message news:401EB407.2090600@usefirstinitialandlastnameAT erols.com...
> Mike Romain wrote:
> > Well, you said it...
> >
> > You had a dead engine before 100 K miles.
> >
> > Most folks get 200 to 300K before they have to do engine work on the
> > 258's or 4.0's.
> >
> > Your method obviously doesn't work at all....
>
> I would definitely not go with his method either. Mobil 1 is cheap
> enough these days ($18 for a 5 quart jug at wal-mart, or approximately
> twice as much at bargain price dino oil). And no matter how good the oil
> is the filter is bound to miss or reintroduce some stuff. That said:
>
> > Oil builds up contaminants from combustion and needs to be changed on a
> > regular schedule no matter how fancy the oil....
>
> I'm not an oil expert but I did do a lot of reading on synthetics in
> preparation to recommending them (or not) to be used in the fleet
> vehicles of the company I work for.
>
> As I understand it pure synthetics like Mobil 1 do not have the same
> sort of interaction that dino oil does in the combustion chamber, it
> never gets the "varnish" that eventually turns into sludge. In addition
> it is extremely good as devolving away any sludge that already exists
> (if you're putting it in an engine that is already sludged up).
> Basically dino oil no matter how well it's refined has organic matter
> that burns at combustion temps, the oil traps it and most of it is too
> small to get filtered eventually like sediment it ends up in nooks and
> crannies, and you eventually get clogged oil galleys sludged up valves
> etc. Synthetics don't produce the combustion by products in the first
place.
>
> However it does have additives that become less effective over time just
> like dino oil, and that is why it's generally recommended to change it
> and the filter at normal 3000 miles intervals, even though it may look
> just as clear as the day you put it in there.
>
> It is also considered much better for hard driving (towing and off-road)
> tends to leave a good layer of oil on parts that dino oil drains off of
> faster (in terms of start up friction). This is supposedly where pure
> synthetics add most of their wear reduction benefit. It has a much lower
> friction coefficient at startup and remains much slicker while warming
> up until more is pulled up and is flowing into all the vital spots.
>
> --
> Simon
> "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein
>

Re: Opinions on Fram Toughguard oil filters?
 

I hear if you put Mobil 1 into a high miles engine it will introduce leaks
in the seals...

Opinions???

--
Skip


"Simon Juncal" <SPAMERSSUCK@usefirstinitialandlastnameATerols.com > wrote in
message news:401EB407.2090600@usefirstinitialandlastnameAT erols.com...
> Mike Romain wrote:
> > Well, you said it...
> >
> > You had a dead engine before 100 K miles.
> >
> > Most folks get 200 to 300K before they have to do engine work on the
> > 258's or 4.0's.
> >
> > Your method obviously doesn't work at all....
>
> I would definitely not go with his method either. Mobil 1 is cheap
> enough these days ($18 for a 5 quart jug at wal-mart, or approximately
> twice as much at bargain price dino oil). And no matter how good the oil
> is the filter is bound to miss or reintroduce some stuff. That said:
>
> > Oil builds up contaminants from combustion and needs to be changed on a
> > regular schedule no matter how fancy the oil....
>
> I'm not an oil expert but I did do a lot of reading on synthetics in
> preparation to recommending them (or not) to be used in the fleet
> vehicles of the company I work for.
>
> As I understand it pure synthetics like Mobil 1 do not have the same
> sort of interaction that dino oil does in the combustion chamber, it
> never gets the "varnish" that eventually turns into sludge. In addition
> it is extremely good as devolving away any sludge that already exists
> (if you're putting it in an engine that is already sludged up).
> Basically dino oil no matter how well it's refined has organic matter
> that burns at combustion temps, the oil traps it and most of it is too
> small to get filtered eventually like sediment it ends up in nooks and
> crannies, and you eventually get clogged oil galleys sludged up valves
> etc. Synthetics don't produce the combustion by products in the first
place.
>
> However it does have additives that become less effective over time just
> like dino oil, and that is why it's generally recommended to change it
> and the filter at normal 3000 miles intervals, even though it may look
> just as clear as the day you put it in there.
>
> It is also considered much better for hard driving (towing and off-road)
> tends to leave a good layer of oil on parts that dino oil drains off of
> faster (in terms of start up friction). This is supposedly where pure
> synthetics add most of their wear reduction benefit. It has a much lower
> friction coefficient at startup and remains much slicker while warming
> up until more is pulled up and is flowing into all the vital spots.
>
> --
> Simon
> "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein
>

Re: Opinions on Fram Toughguard oil filters?
 

OK, then let me offer the facts that such oil filters will (or wont)
qualify for compliance of the ASTM standard "OSU F-2 test stand" for a
beta reduction value of ~100 (logrithm of the influent versus effluent
particles) at rated particles per micron (micrometer) size. OSU being
an acronymn for Oklahoma State University who designed the currently
acccepted oil filter test stand methodology. If such a manufacturer (or
rebranded labeler) woudnt comply to these 'industry' standards, then
those in competition would be as visciously vocal as Howard Dean versus
Kerry, Edwards, Clark, the rest of world, etc.

With respect to 'recirculation' filtration the filter media of a more
'open' (larger) retention size will operate under less differential
pressure (remaining laminar in throughput) hence filtering a vastlly
greater total thoughput and particle capture (on a weight basis) per
'lifetime'. That the larger retention media's capability is larger
does not mean less capture effeciency as it still has smaller particle
retention capability at a lesser %; but, since is can handle MORE
volumetric flow, the net effect of particle removal (per size) will be
faster turnover to the desired resident particle distribution that is
deemed non-injurious to the bearing, etc. clearances, etc. ... where
the typical base line or resident particles deemed to be sufficiently
small and non-injurious are at ~1/5 the diameter of the smallest
'equivalent' orfice of the system to be protected - electrostatic
'bridging' of the particles being a principal source of plugging,
scoreing, etc.

Since the principal function of a hydrodynamic bearing ( oil served
plain journal) is to provide 'lift' versus the developed hydrodynamic
pressure, the effect of particulate at less than 1/5 the operational
bearing clearance is small, hence recirculating oil filtration can be
quite 'coarse' and still do a reasonable job of extraneous wear
protection.

how's that?

;-)

Re: Opinions on Fram Toughguard oil filters?
 

OK, then let me offer the facts that such oil filters will (or wont)
qualify for compliance of the ASTM standard "OSU F-2 test stand" for a
beta reduction value of ~100 (logrithm of the influent versus effluent
particles) at rated particles per micron (micrometer) size. OSU being
an acronymn for Oklahoma State University who designed the currently
acccepted oil filter test stand methodology. If such a manufacturer (or
rebranded labeler) woudnt comply to these 'industry' standards, then
those in competition would be as visciously vocal as Howard Dean versus
Kerry, Edwards, Clark, the rest of world, etc.

With respect to 'recirculation' filtration the filter media of a more
'open' (larger) retention size will operate under less differential
pressure (remaining laminar in throughput) hence filtering a vastlly
greater total thoughput and particle capture (on a weight basis) per
'lifetime'. That the larger retention media's capability is larger
does not mean less capture effeciency as it still has smaller particle
retention capability at a lesser %; but, since is can handle MORE
volumetric flow, the net effect of particle removal (per size) will be
faster turnover to the desired resident particle distribution that is
deemed non-injurious to the bearing, etc. clearances, etc. ... where
the typical base line or resident particles deemed to be sufficiently
small and non-injurious are at ~1/5 the diameter of the smallest
'equivalent' orfice of the system to be protected - electrostatic
'bridging' of the particles being a principal source of plugging,
scoreing, etc.

Since the principal function of a hydrodynamic bearing ( oil served
plain journal) is to provide 'lift' versus the developed hydrodynamic
pressure, the effect of particulate at less than 1/5 the operational
bearing clearance is small, hence recirculating oil filtration can be
quite 'coarse' and still do a reasonable job of extraneous wear
protection.

how's that?

;-)

Re: Opinions on Fram Toughguard oil filters?
 

OK, then let me offer the facts that such oil filters will (or wont)
qualify for compliance of the ASTM standard "OSU F-2 test stand" for a
beta reduction value of ~100 (logrithm of the influent versus effluent
particles) at rated particles per micron (micrometer) size. OSU being
an acronymn for Oklahoma State University who designed the currently
acccepted oil filter test stand methodology. If such a manufacturer (or
rebranded labeler) woudnt comply to these 'industry' standards, then
those in competition would be as visciously vocal as Howard Dean versus
Kerry, Edwards, Clark, the rest of world, etc.

With respect to 'recirculation' filtration the filter media of a more
'open' (larger) retention size will operate under less differential
pressure (remaining laminar in throughput) hence filtering a vastlly
greater total thoughput and particle capture (on a weight basis) per
'lifetime'. That the larger retention media's capability is larger
does not mean less capture effeciency as it still has smaller particle
retention capability at a lesser %; but, since is can handle MORE
volumetric flow, the net effect of particle removal (per size) will be
faster turnover to the desired resident particle distribution that is
deemed non-injurious to the bearing, etc. clearances, etc. ... where
the typical base line or resident particles deemed to be sufficiently
small and non-injurious are at ~1/5 the diameter of the smallest
'equivalent' orfice of the system to be protected - electrostatic
'bridging' of the particles being a principal source of plugging,
scoreing, etc.

Since the principal function of a hydrodynamic bearing ( oil served
plain journal) is to provide 'lift' versus the developed hydrodynamic
pressure, the effect of particulate at less than 1/5 the operational
bearing clearance is small, hence recirculating oil filtration can be
quite 'coarse' and still do a reasonable job of extraneous wear
protection.

how's that?

;-)

Re: Opinions on Fram Toughguard oil filters?
 

It will soften the seals that have hardened. but it will also loosen the
crud that has slowed the leaking of your high mileage engine. It will in
effect cause it to leak more. I have had this happen to me. Funny enough,
when I went back to conventional oil, the leaks slowed way down again after
a while.
KH
<Skip> wrote in message news:bvn1sp02ojk@enews2.newsguy.com...
> I hear if you put Mobil 1 into a high miles engine it will introduce leaks
> in the seals...
>
> Opinions???
>
> --
> Skip
>
>
> "Simon Juncal" <SPAMERSSUCK@usefirstinitialandlastnameATerols.com > wrote
in
> message news:401EB407.2090600@usefirstinitialandlastnameAT erols.com...
> > Mike Romain wrote:
> > > Well, you said it...
> > >
> > > You had a dead engine before 100 K miles.
> > >
> > > Most folks get 200 to 300K before they have to do engine work on the
> > > 258's or 4.0's.
> > >
> > > Your method obviously doesn't work at all....
> >
> > I would definitely not go with his method either. Mobil 1 is cheap
> > enough these days ($18 for a 5 quart jug at wal-mart, or approximately
> > twice as much at bargain price dino oil). And no matter how good the oil
> > is the filter is bound to miss or reintroduce some stuff. That said:
> >
> > > Oil builds up contaminants from combustion and needs to be changed on
a
> > > regular schedule no matter how fancy the oil....
> >
> > I'm not an oil expert but I did do a lot of reading on synthetics in
> > preparation to recommending them (or not) to be used in the fleet
> > vehicles of the company I work for.
> >
> > As I understand it pure synthetics like Mobil 1 do not have the same
> > sort of interaction that dino oil does in the combustion chamber, it
> > never gets the "varnish" that eventually turns into sludge. In addition
> > it is extremely good as devolving away any sludge that already exists
> > (if you're putting it in an engine that is already sludged up).
> > Basically dino oil no matter how well it's refined has organic matter
> > that burns at combustion temps, the oil traps it and most of it is too
> > small to get filtered eventually like sediment it ends up in nooks and
> > crannies, and you eventually get clogged oil galleys sludged up valves
> > etc. Synthetics don't produce the combustion by products in the first
> place.
> >
> > However it does have additives that become less effective over time just
> > like dino oil, and that is why it's generally recommended to change it
> > and the filter at normal 3000 miles intervals, even though it may look
> > just as clear as the day you put it in there.
> >
> > It is also considered much better for hard driving (towing and off-road)
> > tends to leave a good layer of oil on parts that dino oil drains off of
> > faster (in terms of start up friction). This is supposedly where pure
> > synthetics add most of their wear reduction benefit. It has a much lower
> > friction coefficient at startup and remains much slicker while warming
> > up until more is pulled up and is flowing into all the vital spots.
> >
> > --
> > Simon
> > "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein
> >
>
>

Re: Opinions on Fram Toughguard oil filters?
 

It will soften the seals that have hardened. but it will also loosen the
crud that has slowed the leaking of your high mileage engine. It will in
effect cause it to leak more. I have had this happen to me. Funny enough,
when I went back to conventional oil, the leaks slowed way down again after
a while.
KH
<Skip> wrote in message news:bvn1sp02ojk@enews2.newsguy.com...
> I hear if you put Mobil 1 into a high miles engine it will introduce leaks
> in the seals...
>
> Opinions???
>
> --
> Skip
>
>
> "Simon Juncal" <SPAMERSSUCK@usefirstinitialandlastnameATerols.com > wrote
in
> message news:401EB407.2090600@usefirstinitialandlastnameAT erols.com...
> > Mike Romain wrote:
> > > Well, you said it...
> > >
> > > You had a dead engine before 100 K miles.
> > >
> > > Most folks get 200 to 300K before they have to do engine work on the
> > > 258's or 4.0's.
> > >
> > > Your method obviously doesn't work at all....
> >
> > I would definitely not go with his method either. Mobil 1 is cheap
> > enough these days ($18 for a 5 quart jug at wal-mart, or approximately
> > twice as much at bargain price dino oil). And no matter how good the oil
> > is the filter is bound to miss or reintroduce some stuff. That said:
> >
> > > Oil builds up contaminants from combustion and needs to be changed on
a
> > > regular schedule no matter how fancy the oil....
> >
> > I'm not an oil expert but I did do a lot of reading on synthetics in
> > preparation to recommending them (or not) to be used in the fleet
> > vehicles of the company I work for.
> >
> > As I understand it pure synthetics like Mobil 1 do not have the same
> > sort of interaction that dino oil does in the combustion chamber, it
> > never gets the "varnish" that eventually turns into sludge. In addition
> > it is extremely good as devolving away any sludge that already exists
> > (if you're putting it in an engine that is already sludged up).
> > Basically dino oil no matter how well it's refined has organic matter
> > that burns at combustion temps, the oil traps it and most of it is too
> > small to get filtered eventually like sediment it ends up in nooks and
> > crannies, and you eventually get clogged oil galleys sludged up valves
> > etc. Synthetics don't produce the combustion by products in the first
> place.
> >
> > However it does have additives that become less effective over time just
> > like dino oil, and that is why it's generally recommended to change it
> > and the filter at normal 3000 miles intervals, even though it may look
> > just as clear as the day you put it in there.
> >
> > It is also considered much better for hard driving (towing and off-road)
> > tends to leave a good layer of oil on parts that dino oil drains off of
> > faster (in terms of start up friction). This is supposedly where pure
> > synthetics add most of their wear reduction benefit. It has a much lower
> > friction coefficient at startup and remains much slicker while warming
> > up until more is pulled up and is flowing into all the vital spots.
> >
> > --
> > Simon
> > "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein
> >
>
>

Re: Opinions on Fram Toughguard oil filters?
 

It will soften the seals that have hardened. but it will also loosen the
crud that has slowed the leaking of your high mileage engine. It will in
effect cause it to leak more. I have had this happen to me. Funny enough,
when I went back to conventional oil, the leaks slowed way down again after
a while.
KH
<Skip> wrote in message news:bvn1sp02ojk@enews2.newsguy.com...
> I hear if you put Mobil 1 into a high miles engine it will introduce leaks
> in the seals...
>
> Opinions???
>
> --
> Skip
>
>
> "Simon Juncal" <SPAMERSSUCK@usefirstinitialandlastnameATerols.com > wrote
in
> message news:401EB407.2090600@usefirstinitialandlastnameAT erols.com...
> > Mike Romain wrote:
> > > Well, you said it...
> > >
> > > You had a dead engine before 100 K miles.
> > >
> > > Most folks get 200 to 300K before they have to do engine work on the
> > > 258's or 4.0's.
> > >
> > > Your method obviously doesn't work at all....
> >
> > I would definitely not go with his method either. Mobil 1 is cheap
> > enough these days ($18 for a 5 quart jug at wal-mart, or approximately
> > twice as much at bargain price dino oil). And no matter how good the oil
> > is the filter is bound to miss or reintroduce some stuff. That said:
> >
> > > Oil builds up contaminants from combustion and needs to be changed on
a
> > > regular schedule no matter how fancy the oil....
> >
> > I'm not an oil expert but I did do a lot of reading on synthetics in
> > preparation to recommending them (or not) to be used in the fleet
> > vehicles of the company I work for.
> >
> > As I understand it pure synthetics like Mobil 1 do not have the same
> > sort of interaction that dino oil does in the combustion chamber, it
> > never gets the "varnish" that eventually turns into sludge. In addition
> > it is extremely good as devolving away any sludge that already exists
> > (if you're putting it in an engine that is already sludged up).
> > Basically dino oil no matter how well it's refined has organic matter
> > that burns at combustion temps, the oil traps it and most of it is too
> > small to get filtered eventually like sediment it ends up in nooks and
> > crannies, and you eventually get clogged oil galleys sludged up valves
> > etc. Synthetics don't produce the combustion by products in the first
> place.
> >
> > However it does have additives that become less effective over time just
> > like dino oil, and that is why it's generally recommended to change it
> > and the filter at normal 3000 miles intervals, even though it may look
> > just as clear as the day you put it in there.
> >
> > It is also considered much better for hard driving (towing and off-road)
> > tends to leave a good layer of oil on parts that dino oil drains off of
> > faster (in terms of start up friction). This is supposedly where pure
> > synthetics add most of their wear reduction benefit. It has a much lower
> > friction coefficient at startup and remains much slicker while warming
> > up until more is pulled up and is flowing into all the vital spots.
> >
> > --
> > Simon
> > "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein
> >
>
>