Close Call!
03-16-2006, 11:45 AM
#301
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Close Call!
lol
Spdloader
"FrankW" <fworm@norpak.ca> wrote in message
news:Z4qdnXxjvPBAEoTZnZ2dnUVZ_tCdnZ2d@magma.ca...
> Enough already! :-)
> The only real good advice for this thread is:
> Before embarking into a dangerous icy snowy hilly area,
> ensure you have the proper traction devices, like studded tires
> or chains. Without those items, means DO NOT GO.
> It's best to use common sense here.
> P.S No insults are intended.
> Cheers
> :-)
> Spdloader wrote:
>
>> I guess I have to go back on my promise to drop it.
>>
>>
>>>Sorry, but there is just the one big point you don't seem to grasp about
>>>part time 4x4.... It 'locks' the front and rear axles together.
>>
>>
>> It's not about me grasping anything, it's real world training and
>> experience. It works. I fully understand how 4WD works. I was only a cop
>> for 9 years, but was a mechanic for about 15. Steering, suspension,
>> brakes, 4WD, electrical, HVAC, etc.
>>
>>>When the back wheels are locked by the emergency brake, the front wheels
>>>'CANNOT' rotate!
>>
>>
>> Surely you don't think I meant to leave the brake locked on while
>> shifting to neutral, do you? I assume we're still talking about the
>> parking lot scenario.+
>> Release the ebrake, shift to neutral, steer towards the slide, control
>> regained, back into gear and off you go.
>>
>>
>>>When the front brakes are locked, the rear wheels 'CANNOT' rotate even
>>>with the proportioning valve.
>>
>>
>> Thats true, when the brake pedal is pressed, the proportioning valve
>> directs incoming pressure from the master cylinder to the rear first,
>> then pressure builds, activating the front brakes, unless in a
>> dual-diagonal system, (old GM) but not used on Jeep. This all happens in
>> milliseconds. So, if the front brakes are locked, the rear were first.
>>
>>
>>>You can 'Not' regain control by using neutral in part time 4x4 because
>>>the front and rear axles are locked together and one 'must' scuff which
>>>loses traction.
>>
>>
>> Works everytime without fail.
>>
>>>
>>>It is just physically impossible in part time 4x4.
>>
>>
>> Then I've been witnessing a miracle for 26 years.
>>
>> Here's my actual scenario:
>>
>> You are going downhill, a very steep off camber downhill, in gear, and
>> the vehicle starts to slide sideways. At the bottom of the hill, let's
>> say 50yds there is a 90deg turn with an intersection and a stop sign.
>> With only enough pressure on the brakes to keep them from locking up,
>> quickly shift to neutral, the vehicle will straighten up whether in 4WD
>> or not. You will regain directional control.
>> I'm not arguing theory or anything that looks good on paper, I'm saying
>> what actually happens.
>>
>> Do you not see that we are describing nearly the same thing, only without
>> the accelerating part?
>>
>> If instead, you leave the vehicle in gear and accelerate, you will ALSO
>> regain directional control, but now you are going faster because you
>> accelerated, and it works great if you don't have an obstacle at the
>> bottom of the hill, but in this case you do. How are you going to stop?
>>
>> I don't suggest trying my suggestion if you don't have the skills to do
>> it. Instead, go ahead into the tree, into the ditch, or off the
>> embankment.
>> (Obvious insult returned, I owed you one)
>> Spdloader
>>
>>
>>
>>>Mike
>>>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>>>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>>>Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>>>Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>>>(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>>
>>
>>
>
Spdloader
"FrankW" <fworm@norpak.ca> wrote in message
news:Z4qdnXxjvPBAEoTZnZ2dnUVZ_tCdnZ2d@magma.ca...
> Enough already! :-)
> The only real good advice for this thread is:
> Before embarking into a dangerous icy snowy hilly area,
> ensure you have the proper traction devices, like studded tires
> or chains. Without those items, means DO NOT GO.
> It's best to use common sense here.
> P.S No insults are intended.
> Cheers
> :-)
> Spdloader wrote:
>
>> I guess I have to go back on my promise to drop it.
>>
>>
>>>Sorry, but there is just the one big point you don't seem to grasp about
>>>part time 4x4.... It 'locks' the front and rear axles together.
>>
>>
>> It's not about me grasping anything, it's real world training and
>> experience. It works. I fully understand how 4WD works. I was only a cop
>> for 9 years, but was a mechanic for about 15. Steering, suspension,
>> brakes, 4WD, electrical, HVAC, etc.
>>
>>>When the back wheels are locked by the emergency brake, the front wheels
>>>'CANNOT' rotate!
>>
>>
>> Surely you don't think I meant to leave the brake locked on while
>> shifting to neutral, do you? I assume we're still talking about the
>> parking lot scenario.+
>> Release the ebrake, shift to neutral, steer towards the slide, control
>> regained, back into gear and off you go.
>>
>>
>>>When the front brakes are locked, the rear wheels 'CANNOT' rotate even
>>>with the proportioning valve.
>>
>>
>> Thats true, when the brake pedal is pressed, the proportioning valve
>> directs incoming pressure from the master cylinder to the rear first,
>> then pressure builds, activating the front brakes, unless in a
>> dual-diagonal system, (old GM) but not used on Jeep. This all happens in
>> milliseconds. So, if the front brakes are locked, the rear were first.
>>
>>
>>>You can 'Not' regain control by using neutral in part time 4x4 because
>>>the front and rear axles are locked together and one 'must' scuff which
>>>loses traction.
>>
>>
>> Works everytime without fail.
>>
>>>
>>>It is just physically impossible in part time 4x4.
>>
>>
>> Then I've been witnessing a miracle for 26 years.
>>
>> Here's my actual scenario:
>>
>> You are going downhill, a very steep off camber downhill, in gear, and
>> the vehicle starts to slide sideways. At the bottom of the hill, let's
>> say 50yds there is a 90deg turn with an intersection and a stop sign.
>> With only enough pressure on the brakes to keep them from locking up,
>> quickly shift to neutral, the vehicle will straighten up whether in 4WD
>> or not. You will regain directional control.
>> I'm not arguing theory or anything that looks good on paper, I'm saying
>> what actually happens.
>>
>> Do you not see that we are describing nearly the same thing, only without
>> the accelerating part?
>>
>> If instead, you leave the vehicle in gear and accelerate, you will ALSO
>> regain directional control, but now you are going faster because you
>> accelerated, and it works great if you don't have an obstacle at the
>> bottom of the hill, but in this case you do. How are you going to stop?
>>
>> I don't suggest trying my suggestion if you don't have the skills to do
>> it. Instead, go ahead into the tree, into the ditch, or off the
>> embankment.
>> (Obvious insult returned, I owed you one)
>> Spdloader
>>
>>
>>
>>>Mike
>>>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>>>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>>>Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>>>Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>>>(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>>
>>
>>
>
03-16-2006, 11:53 AM
#302
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Close Call!
> Obviously we aren't going to agree on this.....
Agreed.
lol
> Oh, the only reason for a proportioning valve is to 'prevent' rear wheel
> lock up by the way. Yes it makes sure the rears have a certain pressure
> before it will lock the fronts, but it limits it.
It ------s the pressure from back to front. The limiting factor is your
foot, except in ABS.
>I shouldn't have mentioned that valve, it confuses folks too easy.
Another obvious dig.
Spdloader
Agreed.
lol
> Oh, the only reason for a proportioning valve is to 'prevent' rear wheel
> lock up by the way. Yes it makes sure the rears have a certain pressure
> before it will lock the fronts, but it limits it.
It ------s the pressure from back to front. The limiting factor is your
foot, except in ABS.
>I shouldn't have mentioned that valve, it confuses folks too easy.
Another obvious dig.
Spdloader
03-16-2006, 11:53 AM
#303
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Close Call!
> Obviously we aren't going to agree on this.....
Agreed.
lol
> Oh, the only reason for a proportioning valve is to 'prevent' rear wheel
> lock up by the way. Yes it makes sure the rears have a certain pressure
> before it will lock the fronts, but it limits it.
It ------s the pressure from back to front. The limiting factor is your
foot, except in ABS.
>I shouldn't have mentioned that valve, it confuses folks too easy.
Another obvious dig.
Spdloader
Agreed.
lol
> Oh, the only reason for a proportioning valve is to 'prevent' rear wheel
> lock up by the way. Yes it makes sure the rears have a certain pressure
> before it will lock the fronts, but it limits it.
It ------s the pressure from back to front. The limiting factor is your
foot, except in ABS.
>I shouldn't have mentioned that valve, it confuses folks too easy.
Another obvious dig.
Spdloader
03-16-2006, 11:53 AM
#304
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Close Call!
> Obviously we aren't going to agree on this.....
Agreed.
lol
> Oh, the only reason for a proportioning valve is to 'prevent' rear wheel
> lock up by the way. Yes it makes sure the rears have a certain pressure
> before it will lock the fronts, but it limits it.
It ------s the pressure from back to front. The limiting factor is your
foot, except in ABS.
>I shouldn't have mentioned that valve, it confuses folks too easy.
Another obvious dig.
Spdloader
Agreed.
lol
> Oh, the only reason for a proportioning valve is to 'prevent' rear wheel
> lock up by the way. Yes it makes sure the rears have a certain pressure
> before it will lock the fronts, but it limits it.
It ------s the pressure from back to front. The limiting factor is your
foot, except in ABS.
>I shouldn't have mentioned that valve, it confuses folks too easy.
Another obvious dig.
Spdloader
03-16-2006, 11:53 AM
#305
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Close Call!
> Obviously we aren't going to agree on this.....
Agreed.
lol
> Oh, the only reason for a proportioning valve is to 'prevent' rear wheel
> lock up by the way. Yes it makes sure the rears have a certain pressure
> before it will lock the fronts, but it limits it.
It ------s the pressure from back to front. The limiting factor is your
foot, except in ABS.
>I shouldn't have mentioned that valve, it confuses folks too easy.
Another obvious dig.
Spdloader
Agreed.
lol
> Oh, the only reason for a proportioning valve is to 'prevent' rear wheel
> lock up by the way. Yes it makes sure the rears have a certain pressure
> before it will lock the fronts, but it limits it.
It ------s the pressure from back to front. The limiting factor is your
foot, except in ABS.
>I shouldn't have mentioned that valve, it confuses folks too easy.
Another obvious dig.
Spdloader
03-16-2006, 12:09 PM
#306
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Close Call!
Spdloader wrote:
>
> > Obviously we aren't going to agree on this.....
>
> Agreed.
> lol
>
> > Oh, the only reason for a proportioning valve is to 'prevent' rear wheel
> > lock up by the way. Yes it makes sure the rears have a certain pressure
> > before it will lock the fronts, but it limits it.
>
> It ------s the pressure from back to front. The limiting factor is your
> foot, except in ABS.
>
> >I shouldn't have mentioned that valve, it confuses folks too easy.
>
> Another obvious dig.
>
> Spdloader
If you are at speed and jam the brake pedal down in a panic stop, the
rear wheels will not lock up. If they do, something is broken.
That is a proportioning valve's reason for being AND the reason you need
to hit neutral to stop in snow in your rear wheel drive cruiser...
It has been this way since the 60's.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> > Obviously we aren't going to agree on this.....
>
> Agreed.
> lol
>
> > Oh, the only reason for a proportioning valve is to 'prevent' rear wheel
> > lock up by the way. Yes it makes sure the rears have a certain pressure
> > before it will lock the fronts, but it limits it.
>
> It ------s the pressure from back to front. The limiting factor is your
> foot, except in ABS.
>
> >I shouldn't have mentioned that valve, it confuses folks too easy.
>
> Another obvious dig.
>
> Spdloader
If you are at speed and jam the brake pedal down in a panic stop, the
rear wheels will not lock up. If they do, something is broken.
That is a proportioning valve's reason for being AND the reason you need
to hit neutral to stop in snow in your rear wheel drive cruiser...
It has been this way since the 60's.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
03-16-2006, 12:09 PM
#307
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Close Call!
Spdloader wrote:
>
> > Obviously we aren't going to agree on this.....
>
> Agreed.
> lol
>
> > Oh, the only reason for a proportioning valve is to 'prevent' rear wheel
> > lock up by the way. Yes it makes sure the rears have a certain pressure
> > before it will lock the fronts, but it limits it.
>
> It ------s the pressure from back to front. The limiting factor is your
> foot, except in ABS.
>
> >I shouldn't have mentioned that valve, it confuses folks too easy.
>
> Another obvious dig.
>
> Spdloader
If you are at speed and jam the brake pedal down in a panic stop, the
rear wheels will not lock up. If they do, something is broken.
That is a proportioning valve's reason for being AND the reason you need
to hit neutral to stop in snow in your rear wheel drive cruiser...
It has been this way since the 60's.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> > Obviously we aren't going to agree on this.....
>
> Agreed.
> lol
>
> > Oh, the only reason for a proportioning valve is to 'prevent' rear wheel
> > lock up by the way. Yes it makes sure the rears have a certain pressure
> > before it will lock the fronts, but it limits it.
>
> It ------s the pressure from back to front. The limiting factor is your
> foot, except in ABS.
>
> >I shouldn't have mentioned that valve, it confuses folks too easy.
>
> Another obvious dig.
>
> Spdloader
If you are at speed and jam the brake pedal down in a panic stop, the
rear wheels will not lock up. If they do, something is broken.
That is a proportioning valve's reason for being AND the reason you need
to hit neutral to stop in snow in your rear wheel drive cruiser...
It has been this way since the 60's.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
03-16-2006, 12:09 PM
#308
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Close Call!
Spdloader wrote:
>
> > Obviously we aren't going to agree on this.....
>
> Agreed.
> lol
>
> > Oh, the only reason for a proportioning valve is to 'prevent' rear wheel
> > lock up by the way. Yes it makes sure the rears have a certain pressure
> > before it will lock the fronts, but it limits it.
>
> It ------s the pressure from back to front. The limiting factor is your
> foot, except in ABS.
>
> >I shouldn't have mentioned that valve, it confuses folks too easy.
>
> Another obvious dig.
>
> Spdloader
If you are at speed and jam the brake pedal down in a panic stop, the
rear wheels will not lock up. If they do, something is broken.
That is a proportioning valve's reason for being AND the reason you need
to hit neutral to stop in snow in your rear wheel drive cruiser...
It has been this way since the 60's.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> > Obviously we aren't going to agree on this.....
>
> Agreed.
> lol
>
> > Oh, the only reason for a proportioning valve is to 'prevent' rear wheel
> > lock up by the way. Yes it makes sure the rears have a certain pressure
> > before it will lock the fronts, but it limits it.
>
> It ------s the pressure from back to front. The limiting factor is your
> foot, except in ABS.
>
> >I shouldn't have mentioned that valve, it confuses folks too easy.
>
> Another obvious dig.
>
> Spdloader
If you are at speed and jam the brake pedal down in a panic stop, the
rear wheels will not lock up. If they do, something is broken.
That is a proportioning valve's reason for being AND the reason you need
to hit neutral to stop in snow in your rear wheel drive cruiser...
It has been this way since the 60's.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
03-16-2006, 12:09 PM
#309
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Close Call!
Spdloader wrote:
>
> > Obviously we aren't going to agree on this.....
>
> Agreed.
> lol
>
> > Oh, the only reason for a proportioning valve is to 'prevent' rear wheel
> > lock up by the way. Yes it makes sure the rears have a certain pressure
> > before it will lock the fronts, but it limits it.
>
> It ------s the pressure from back to front. The limiting factor is your
> foot, except in ABS.
>
> >I shouldn't have mentioned that valve, it confuses folks too easy.
>
> Another obvious dig.
>
> Spdloader
If you are at speed and jam the brake pedal down in a panic stop, the
rear wheels will not lock up. If they do, something is broken.
That is a proportioning valve's reason for being AND the reason you need
to hit neutral to stop in snow in your rear wheel drive cruiser...
It has been this way since the 60's.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> > Obviously we aren't going to agree on this.....
>
> Agreed.
> lol
>
> > Oh, the only reason for a proportioning valve is to 'prevent' rear wheel
> > lock up by the way. Yes it makes sure the rears have a certain pressure
> > before it will lock the fronts, but it limits it.
>
> It ------s the pressure from back to front. The limiting factor is your
> foot, except in ABS.
>
> >I shouldn't have mentioned that valve, it confuses folks too easy.
>
> Another obvious dig.
>
> Spdloader
If you are at speed and jam the brake pedal down in a panic stop, the
rear wheels will not lock up. If they do, something is broken.
That is a proportioning valve's reason for being AND the reason you need
to hit neutral to stop in snow in your rear wheel drive cruiser...
It has been this way since the 60's.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
03-16-2006, 12:11 PM
#310
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Close Call!
http://www.otmfan.com/html/brertar.htm
Earle
"Spdloader" <askforit@nospam.triad.rr.com> wrote in message
news:cKgSf.66273$%84.18829@tornado.southeast.rr.co m...
> > Obviously we aren't going to agree on this.....
>
> Agreed.
> lol
>
> > Oh, the only reason for a proportioning valve is to 'prevent' rear wheel
> > lock up by the way. Yes it makes sure the rears have a certain pressure
> > before it will lock the fronts, but it limits it.
>
> It ------s the pressure from back to front. The limiting factor is your
> foot, except in ABS.
>
> >I shouldn't have mentioned that valve, it confuses folks too easy.
>
> Another obvious dig.
>
> Spdloader
>
>
Earle
"Spdloader" <askforit@nospam.triad.rr.com> wrote in message
news:cKgSf.66273$%84.18829@tornado.southeast.rr.co m...
> > Obviously we aren't going to agree on this.....
>
> Agreed.
> lol
>
> > Oh, the only reason for a proportioning valve is to 'prevent' rear wheel
> > lock up by the way. Yes it makes sure the rears have a certain pressure
> > before it will lock the fronts, but it limits it.
>
> It ------s the pressure from back to front. The limiting factor is your
> foot, except in ABS.
>
> >I shouldn't have mentioned that valve, it confuses folks too easy.
>
> Another obvious dig.
>
> Spdloader
>
>
