Whomever your teacher was never drove on ice very much. And no, engine
braking is a plot ------ by the body shop and tow truck mafia to lure
the inexperienced.



4X4PLAY proclaimed:

> If you were in 4low the light on the dash should read part time...
> I was always taught that if you are in neutral you are out of control...
> Isn't the best way down supposed to be with engine compression, no brakes
> and no clutch??
>
> Jeff
> "Lon" <lon.stowell@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:jNGdnXhhBavdVonZnZ2dnUVZ_sSdnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>
>>Ayup, driving stick shifts in areas where icy bridges, shaded corners,
>>etc. exist, I'd always keep a foot right on the clutch ready to de-clutch
>>immediately try to get a wheel to start gaining a few micro-ounces of
>>traction.
>>
>>philthy proclaimed:
>>
>>
>>>you would not believe how much a vehicle recovers when putting it into
>>>neutral
>>>as it is sliding
>>>
>>>Stimpy wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>OK, I'm now still shaking from out little trip up a mountain road to play
>>>>in
>>>>the snow. We went up this seemingly harmless road I have been up several
>>>>times before. I noticed sliding in some places on the way up so I decided
>>>>to
>>>>turn around (good thing I did when I did, 'cause it got steeper from that
>>>>point) I start down the road, not too terribly steep and I start sliding
>>>>as
>>>>soon as my foot hits the brake ('89 XJ "Pioneer" stock) I had to put it
>>>>in a
>>>>small ditch to stop.
>>>>I made my son get out (just in case) as I didn't want him going over the
>>>>ravine too. I had the wheel turned back to the road but couldn't get back
>>>>on
>>>>the road, a stupid little 4-6 inch deep ditch. finally I was back on the
>>>>road and started sliding again. road was packed so hard it was like ice.
>>>>I
>>>>couldn't get it into 4LO and finally decided to creep as slow as possible
>>>>using the hand brake and the compression.
>>>>After a half mile, almost to safety, I had to pull over and let some
>>>>shinny
>>>>new Chevy PU 4WD pass me, he had no problems sliding and I was
>>>>embarrassed,
>>>>me in a Jeep, doing the slide for life. All went well no damage except my
>>>>ego and now I am "gun-shy" about mountain roads. went 45 all the way home
>>>>on
>>>>dry pavement (pretty shook-up)
>>>>
>>>>OK did I do something wrong? did I do right? I have had pretty good
>>>>experience in snow (fresh snow, I love it) How do I get it in 4LO? (I
>>>>have
>>>>the 4PartTime, 4 FullTime, N, 4LO with automatic tranny) I got it in the
>>>>right slot but the light on the dash said "4 PartTime" (I was in 4
>>>>FullTime
>>>>before trying to get it in 4LO.
>>>
>

 

Whomever your teacher was never drove on ice very much. And no, engine
braking is a plot ------ by the body shop and tow truck mafia to lure
the inexperienced.



4X4PLAY proclaimed:

> If you were in 4low the light on the dash should read part time...
> I was always taught that if you are in neutral you are out of control...
> Isn't the best way down supposed to be with engine compression, no brakes
> and no clutch??
>
> Jeff
> "Lon" <lon.stowell@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:jNGdnXhhBavdVonZnZ2dnUVZ_sSdnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>
>>Ayup, driving stick shifts in areas where icy bridges, shaded corners,
>>etc. exist, I'd always keep a foot right on the clutch ready to de-clutch
>>immediately try to get a wheel to start gaining a few micro-ounces of
>>traction.
>>
>>philthy proclaimed:
>>
>>
>>>you would not believe how much a vehicle recovers when putting it into
>>>neutral
>>>as it is sliding
>>>
>>>Stimpy wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>OK, I'm now still shaking from out little trip up a mountain road to play
>>>>in
>>>>the snow. We went up this seemingly harmless road I have been up several
>>>>times before. I noticed sliding in some places on the way up so I decided
>>>>to
>>>>turn around (good thing I did when I did, 'cause it got steeper from that
>>>>point) I start down the road, not too terribly steep and I start sliding
>>>>as
>>>>soon as my foot hits the brake ('89 XJ "Pioneer" stock) I had to put it
>>>>in a
>>>>small ditch to stop.
>>>>I made my son get out (just in case) as I didn't want him going over the
>>>>ravine too. I had the wheel turned back to the road but couldn't get back
>>>>on
>>>>the road, a stupid little 4-6 inch deep ditch. finally I was back on the
>>>>road and started sliding again. road was packed so hard it was like ice.
>>>>I
>>>>couldn't get it into 4LO and finally decided to creep as slow as possible
>>>>using the hand brake and the compression.
>>>>After a half mile, almost to safety, I had to pull over and let some
>>>>shinny
>>>>new Chevy PU 4WD pass me, he had no problems sliding and I was
>>>>embarrassed,
>>>>me in a Jeep, doing the slide for life. All went well no damage except my
>>>>ego and now I am "gun-shy" about mountain roads. went 45 all the way home
>>>>on
>>>>dry pavement (pretty shook-up)
>>>>
>>>>OK did I do something wrong? did I do right? I have had pretty good
>>>>experience in snow (fresh snow, I love it) How do I get it in 4LO? (I
>>>>have
>>>>the 4PartTime, 4 FullTime, N, 4LO with automatic tranny) I got it in the
>>>>right slot but the light on the dash said "4 PartTime" (I was in 4
>>>>FullTime
>>>>before trying to get it in 4LO.
>>>
>

 

Whomever your teacher was never drove on ice very much. And no, engine
braking is a plot ------ by the body shop and tow truck mafia to lure
the inexperienced.



4X4PLAY proclaimed:

> If you were in 4low the light on the dash should read part time...
> I was always taught that if you are in neutral you are out of control...
> Isn't the best way down supposed to be with engine compression, no brakes
> and no clutch??
>
> Jeff
> "Lon" <lon.stowell@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:jNGdnXhhBavdVonZnZ2dnUVZ_sSdnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>
>>Ayup, driving stick shifts in areas where icy bridges, shaded corners,
>>etc. exist, I'd always keep a foot right on the clutch ready to de-clutch
>>immediately try to get a wheel to start gaining a few micro-ounces of
>>traction.
>>
>>philthy proclaimed:
>>
>>
>>>you would not believe how much a vehicle recovers when putting it into
>>>neutral
>>>as it is sliding
>>>
>>>Stimpy wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>OK, I'm now still shaking from out little trip up a mountain road to play
>>>>in
>>>>the snow. We went up this seemingly harmless road I have been up several
>>>>times before. I noticed sliding in some places on the way up so I decided
>>>>to
>>>>turn around (good thing I did when I did, 'cause it got steeper from that
>>>>point) I start down the road, not too terribly steep and I start sliding
>>>>as
>>>>soon as my foot hits the brake ('89 XJ "Pioneer" stock) I had to put it
>>>>in a
>>>>small ditch to stop.
>>>>I made my son get out (just in case) as I didn't want him going over the
>>>>ravine too. I had the wheel turned back to the road but couldn't get back
>>>>on
>>>>the road, a stupid little 4-6 inch deep ditch. finally I was back on the
>>>>road and started sliding again. road was packed so hard it was like ice.
>>>>I
>>>>couldn't get it into 4LO and finally decided to creep as slow as possible
>>>>using the hand brake and the compression.
>>>>After a half mile, almost to safety, I had to pull over and let some
>>>>shinny
>>>>new Chevy PU 4WD pass me, he had no problems sliding and I was
>>>>embarrassed,
>>>>me in a Jeep, doing the slide for life. All went well no damage except my
>>>>ego and now I am "gun-shy" about mountain roads. went 45 all the way home
>>>>on
>>>>dry pavement (pretty shook-up)
>>>>
>>>>OK did I do something wrong? did I do right? I have had pretty good
>>>>experience in snow (fresh snow, I love it) How do I get it in 4LO? (I
>>>>have
>>>>the 4PartTime, 4 FullTime, N, 4LO with automatic tranny) I got it in the
>>>>right slot but the light on the dash said "4 PartTime" (I was in 4
>>>>FullTime
>>>>before trying to get it in 4LO.
>>>
>

 

I'd guess it is theoretically true with the odds of being able to match
instantaneous engine speed to the slip speed being roughly equal to
those of being able to flap your arms enough to lift the vehicle into
the air to recover.

Earle Horton proclaimed:

> Hmm, if this is the case, then *theoretically* you can regain control by
> opening the throttle and speeding up the engine some. I have a physics
> degree, and I have been employed as an engineer and as a mechanic. I can
> assure you, that *theoretically* this makes sense. I am not going to try it
> any time soon though.
>
> Earle
>
> "Vince Hodgson" <v-s-h@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:L_GRf.1554$fy1.162596@news20.bellglobal.com.. .
>
>>0K, here's the thing....
>>doesn't matter what you do, if you are starting to slide and its in gear
>
> and
>
>>your foots off the brake, your tires are still turning, just not turning
>>fast enough.
>>
>>therefore, you might as well be slamming on the binders, cause your not in
>>control anymore.
>>
>>best bet in any situation it to slap it into neutral and use the brakes.
>>that way the tires keep turning at the right speed and you can start to
>>regain control with the brake peddle.
>>
>>just my 0.2 cents. had an ice situation happen in 4wd and did 360's down
>
> a
>
>>hill (no brakes) and I definitely know if I kicked it into neutral or
>>pushed in the clutch, i could have regained control again.
>><xyzz4569@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
>>news:1142369786.243719.87620@z34g2000cwc.googleg roups.com...
>>
>>>An automatic has plenty of compression braking if in 1st gear and low
>>>range 4WD. I realize that a manual has more braking ability, but an
>>>automatic still has a LOT.
>>>
>>>Tom
>>>
>>>Lee Ayrton wrote:
>>>
>>>>You can count on one brake locking up before the others, making
>
> control
>
>>>>on a slippery surface more, um, challenging. The OP was doubly
>
> hampered
>
>>>>by his auto tranny that wouldn't hold him back the way a standard
>
> would
>
>>>>have.
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

 

I'd guess it is theoretically true with the odds of being able to match
instantaneous engine speed to the slip speed being roughly equal to
those of being able to flap your arms enough to lift the vehicle into
the air to recover.

Earle Horton proclaimed:

> Hmm, if this is the case, then *theoretically* you can regain control by
> opening the throttle and speeding up the engine some. I have a physics
> degree, and I have been employed as an engineer and as a mechanic. I can
> assure you, that *theoretically* this makes sense. I am not going to try it
> any time soon though.
>
> Earle
>
> "Vince Hodgson" <v-s-h@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:L_GRf.1554$fy1.162596@news20.bellglobal.com.. .
>
>>0K, here's the thing....
>>doesn't matter what you do, if you are starting to slide and its in gear
>
> and
>
>>your foots off the brake, your tires are still turning, just not turning
>>fast enough.
>>
>>therefore, you might as well be slamming on the binders, cause your not in
>>control anymore.
>>
>>best bet in any situation it to slap it into neutral and use the brakes.
>>that way the tires keep turning at the right speed and you can start to
>>regain control with the brake peddle.
>>
>>just my 0.2 cents. had an ice situation happen in 4wd and did 360's down
>
> a
>
>>hill (no brakes) and I definitely know if I kicked it into neutral or
>>pushed in the clutch, i could have regained control again.
>><xyzz4569@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
>>news:1142369786.243719.87620@z34g2000cwc.googleg roups.com...
>>
>>>An automatic has plenty of compression braking if in 1st gear and low
>>>range 4WD. I realize that a manual has more braking ability, but an
>>>automatic still has a LOT.
>>>
>>>Tom
>>>
>>>Lee Ayrton wrote:
>>>
>>>>You can count on one brake locking up before the others, making
>
> control
>
>>>>on a slippery surface more, um, challenging. The OP was doubly
>
> hampered
>
>>>>by his auto tranny that wouldn't hold him back the way a standard
>
> would
>
>>>>have.
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

 

I'd guess it is theoretically true with the odds of being able to match
instantaneous engine speed to the slip speed being roughly equal to
those of being able to flap your arms enough to lift the vehicle into
the air to recover.

Earle Horton proclaimed:

> Hmm, if this is the case, then *theoretically* you can regain control by
> opening the throttle and speeding up the engine some. I have a physics
> degree, and I have been employed as an engineer and as a mechanic. I can
> assure you, that *theoretically* this makes sense. I am not going to try it
> any time soon though.
>
> Earle
>
> "Vince Hodgson" <v-s-h@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:L_GRf.1554$fy1.162596@news20.bellglobal.com.. .
>
>>0K, here's the thing....
>>doesn't matter what you do, if you are starting to slide and its in gear
>
> and
>
>>your foots off the brake, your tires are still turning, just not turning
>>fast enough.
>>
>>therefore, you might as well be slamming on the binders, cause your not in
>>control anymore.
>>
>>best bet in any situation it to slap it into neutral and use the brakes.
>>that way the tires keep turning at the right speed and you can start to
>>regain control with the brake peddle.
>>
>>just my 0.2 cents. had an ice situation happen in 4wd and did 360's down
>
> a
>
>>hill (no brakes) and I definitely know if I kicked it into neutral or
>>pushed in the clutch, i could have regained control again.
>><xyzz4569@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
>>news:1142369786.243719.87620@z34g2000cwc.googleg roups.com...
>>
>>>An automatic has plenty of compression braking if in 1st gear and low
>>>range 4WD. I realize that a manual has more braking ability, but an
>>>automatic still has a LOT.
>>>
>>>Tom
>>>
>>>Lee Ayrton wrote:
>>>
>>>>You can count on one brake locking up before the others, making
>
> control
>
>>>>on a slippery surface more, um, challenging. The OP was doubly
>
> hampered
>
>>>>by his auto tranny that wouldn't hold him back the way a standard
>
> would
>
>>>>have.
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

 

I'd guess it is theoretically true with the odds of being able to match
instantaneous engine speed to the slip speed being roughly equal to
those of being able to flap your arms enough to lift the vehicle into
the air to recover.

Earle Horton proclaimed:

> Hmm, if this is the case, then *theoretically* you can regain control by
> opening the throttle and speeding up the engine some. I have a physics
> degree, and I have been employed as an engineer and as a mechanic. I can
> assure you, that *theoretically* this makes sense. I am not going to try it
> any time soon though.
>
> Earle
>
> "Vince Hodgson" <v-s-h@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:L_GRf.1554$fy1.162596@news20.bellglobal.com.. .
>
>>0K, here's the thing....
>>doesn't matter what you do, if you are starting to slide and its in gear
>
> and
>
>>your foots off the brake, your tires are still turning, just not turning
>>fast enough.
>>
>>therefore, you might as well be slamming on the binders, cause your not in
>>control anymore.
>>
>>best bet in any situation it to slap it into neutral and use the brakes.
>>that way the tires keep turning at the right speed and you can start to
>>regain control with the brake peddle.
>>
>>just my 0.2 cents. had an ice situation happen in 4wd and did 360's down
>
> a
>
>>hill (no brakes) and I definitely know if I kicked it into neutral or
>>pushed in the clutch, i could have regained control again.
>><xyzz4569@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
>>news:1142369786.243719.87620@z34g2000cwc.googleg roups.com...
>>
>>>An automatic has plenty of compression braking if in 1st gear and low
>>>range 4WD. I realize that a manual has more braking ability, but an
>>>automatic still has a LOT.
>>>
>>>Tom
>>>
>>>Lee Ayrton wrote:
>>>
>>>>You can count on one brake locking up before the others, making
>
> control
>
>>>>on a slippery surface more, um, challenging. The OP was doubly
>
> hampered
>
>>>>by his auto tranny that wouldn't hold him back the way a standard
>
> would
>
>>>>have.
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

 

Good thing to do for anyone wanting to drive on ice and snow that also
desires wrinkle free fenders. Parking lots work as long as they don't
have any curbs or posts. Both beat high speed skidpad training where a
mistake tends to have somewhat more awe inspiring consequences.



Earle Horton proclaimed:

> The state cops on Colorado practice on Georgetown lake after it freezes up.
> It's fun to watch.
>
> Earle
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:44174F1B.C7664F11@sympatico.ca...
>
>>The OP was 'not' trying to stop, he was trying to do a controlled
>>decent.
>>
>>Putting a 4x4 vehicle into neutral is a last resort when you are 'out of
>>control'. You may be able to stop, but you won't have control.
>>
>>What works 'for me in my Jeep' is just by pure coincidence the 'exact'
>>way the Jeep engineers say to hold control in 'both' my CJ7's and my
>>XJ's owners manuals. Hmm.....
>>
>>What worked in your 2 wheel drive cruiser was right for the cruiser.
>>Neutral can save your butt when the proportioning valve won't lock the
>>rear drive wheels and they want to push you on through the intersection.
>>
>>As a cop, I 'highly' doubt you were trained in 4x4 control. It is
>>'nothing' like controlling a rear wheel drive cruiser, not even close.
>>Even a front wheel drive car reacts different than the rear wheel drive
>>cruiser. With the front wheel drive you 'give' it gas to control a
>>corner and your steering. In a part time 4x4 system, when you lock the
>>front brakes, All 4 wheels lock up and you go sideways faster than you
>>can blink. That is why you see a lot of them in the ditch on exit
>>ramps. They went to neutral and hit the brakes to slow down because
>>they 'heard that works' and zing, there they be in the ditch.
>>
>>As a cop you also should be aware that coasting downhill in neutral is
>>totally illegal for the reason you cannot hold control of the vehicle.
>>The suspension unloads and floats and you lose any engine braking
>>control.
>>
>>I am serious when I said I take out groups of Jeepers to learn how to
>>control their Jeeps in snow and ice. I have done a lot of trips with
>>bunches of them posted on the net at alt.binaries.pictures.autos.4x4.
>>
>>I have tried the stopping at a mark test many many times and have tried
>>all combinations to get stopped. In gear with no brakes until the last
>>second still works best.
>>
>>I 'highly' recommend folks hit an empty parking lot come first good snow
>>and try their 4x4 out. It will amaze and scare them with what can
>>happen fast. Be prepared to answer the cop correctly by saying you are
>>learning 4x4 when he accuses you of 'stunting' in the parking lot. ;-)
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>Spdloader wrote:
>>
>>>I have saved myself from accidents more times than I can count by
>
> shifting
>
>>>to neutral, from an automatic or standard transmission.
>>>
>>>I learned this driving technique when I was trained to be a law
>
> enforcement
>
>>>officer twenty years ago, by people trained and qualified to do so, not
>
> by
>
>>>someone that thinks what works for him in his Jeep is best for everyone.
>>>
>>> Shifting to neutral does not automatically make you "out of control" as
>
> you
>
>>>put it, but, helps regain control of the vehicle.
>>>
>>>Accelerating to regain control is not the correct answer if you are
>
> trying
>
>>>to STOP the vehicle. You're just making things worse.
>>>
>>>Try it next time you are on ice or a slick road and pulling up to an
>>>intersection, or coming up on a situation where you must stop or turn.
>
> Shift
>
>>>into neutral and see for yourself under which circumstances you maintain
>>>better control of your vehicle.
>>>
>>>Spdloader
>>>
>>>"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>>>news:44174066.7DB08BE4@sympatico.ca...
>>>
>>>>That happens to us all the time coming down sand pit and ravine walls.
>>>>We do these year round.
>>>>
>>>>Contrary to what might seem right, you have to give it some gas to
>
> keep
>
>>>>control. If you drop back on the gas, the tires can/will stall and
>>>>break free and it's the same as if you had the brake pedal mashed.
>>>>
>>>>If you use the gas and gears right, auto or stick, you can keep the
>>>>wheels turning enough to hold steering control. That is why I like
>
> 3rd
>
>>>>low. It has braking power without too much grab to stall the wheels
>
> and
>
>>>>start a slide. If I am in 2nd, I can stall the wheels if I don't keep
>>>>the rpm high, 1st is useless for descending.
>>>>
>>>>Trying to go too slow can get you into trouble.
>>>>
>>>>Going into neutral can get you killed besides being illegal in every
>>>>state or country I have checked in. In neutral, you are 'out' of
>>>>control.
>>>>
>>>>Mike
>>>>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>>>>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>>>>Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>>>>Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>>>>(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>>>>
>>>>Vince Hodgson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>0K, here's the thing....
>>>>>doesn't matter what you do, if you are starting to slide and its in
>
> gear
>
>>>>>and
>>>>>your foots off the brake, your tires are still turning, just not
>
> turning
>
>>>>>fast enough.
>>>>>
>>>>>therefore, you might as well be slamming on the binders, cause your
>
> not
>
>>>>>in
>>>>>control anymore.
>>>>>
>>>>>best bet in any situation it to slap it into neutral and use the
>
> brakes.
>
>>>>>that way the tires keep turning at the right speed and you can start
>
> to
>
>>>>>regain control with the brake peddle.
>>>>>
>>>>>just my 0.2 cents. had an ice situation happen in 4wd and did 360's
>
> down
>
>>>>>a
>>>>>hill (no brakes) and I definitely know if I kicked it into neutral
>
> or
>
>>>>>pushed in the clutch, i could have regained control again.
>>>>><xyzz4569@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
>>>>>news:1142369786.243719.87620@z34g2000cwc.goog legroups.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>>An automatic has plenty of compression braking if in 1st gear and
>
> low
>
>>>>>>range 4WD. I realize that a manual has more braking ability, but an
>>>>>>automatic still has a LOT.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Tom
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Lee Ayrton wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>You can count on one brake locking up before the others, making
>>>>>>>control
>>>>>>>on a slippery surface more, um, challenging. The OP was doubly
>>>>>>>hampered
>>>>>>>by his auto tranny that wouldn't hold him back the way a standard
>>>>>>>would
>>>>>>>have.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>
>

 

Good thing to do for anyone wanting to drive on ice and snow that also
desires wrinkle free fenders. Parking lots work as long as they don't
have any curbs or posts. Both beat high speed skidpad training where a
mistake tends to have somewhat more awe inspiring consequences.



Earle Horton proclaimed:

> The state cops on Colorado practice on Georgetown lake after it freezes up.
> It's fun to watch.
>
> Earle
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:44174F1B.C7664F11@sympatico.ca...
>
>>The OP was 'not' trying to stop, he was trying to do a controlled
>>decent.
>>
>>Putting a 4x4 vehicle into neutral is a last resort when you are 'out of
>>control'. You may be able to stop, but you won't have control.
>>
>>What works 'for me in my Jeep' is just by pure coincidence the 'exact'
>>way the Jeep engineers say to hold control in 'both' my CJ7's and my
>>XJ's owners manuals. Hmm.....
>>
>>What worked in your 2 wheel drive cruiser was right for the cruiser.
>>Neutral can save your butt when the proportioning valve won't lock the
>>rear drive wheels and they want to push you on through the intersection.
>>
>>As a cop, I 'highly' doubt you were trained in 4x4 control. It is
>>'nothing' like controlling a rear wheel drive cruiser, not even close.
>>Even a front wheel drive car reacts different than the rear wheel drive
>>cruiser. With the front wheel drive you 'give' it gas to control a
>>corner and your steering. In a part time 4x4 system, when you lock the
>>front brakes, All 4 wheels lock up and you go sideways faster than you
>>can blink. That is why you see a lot of them in the ditch on exit
>>ramps. They went to neutral and hit the brakes to slow down because
>>they 'heard that works' and zing, there they be in the ditch.
>>
>>As a cop you also should be aware that coasting downhill in neutral is
>>totally illegal for the reason you cannot hold control of the vehicle.
>>The suspension unloads and floats and you lose any engine braking
>>control.
>>
>>I am serious when I said I take out groups of Jeepers to learn how to
>>control their Jeeps in snow and ice. I have done a lot of trips with
>>bunches of them posted on the net at alt.binaries.pictures.autos.4x4.
>>
>>I have tried the stopping at a mark test many many times and have tried
>>all combinations to get stopped. In gear with no brakes until the last
>>second still works best.
>>
>>I 'highly' recommend folks hit an empty parking lot come first good snow
>>and try their 4x4 out. It will amaze and scare them with what can
>>happen fast. Be prepared to answer the cop correctly by saying you are
>>learning 4x4 when he accuses you of 'stunting' in the parking lot. ;-)
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>Spdloader wrote:
>>
>>>I have saved myself from accidents more times than I can count by
>
> shifting
>
>>>to neutral, from an automatic or standard transmission.
>>>
>>>I learned this driving technique when I was trained to be a law
>
> enforcement
>
>>>officer twenty years ago, by people trained and qualified to do so, not
>
> by
>
>>>someone that thinks what works for him in his Jeep is best for everyone.
>>>
>>> Shifting to neutral does not automatically make you "out of control" as
>
> you
>
>>>put it, but, helps regain control of the vehicle.
>>>
>>>Accelerating to regain control is not the correct answer if you are
>
> trying
>
>>>to STOP the vehicle. You're just making things worse.
>>>
>>>Try it next time you are on ice or a slick road and pulling up to an
>>>intersection, or coming up on a situation where you must stop or turn.
>
> Shift
>
>>>into neutral and see for yourself under which circumstances you maintain
>>>better control of your vehicle.
>>>
>>>Spdloader
>>>
>>>"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>>>news:44174066.7DB08BE4@sympatico.ca...
>>>
>>>>That happens to us all the time coming down sand pit and ravine walls.
>>>>We do these year round.
>>>>
>>>>Contrary to what might seem right, you have to give it some gas to
>
> keep
>
>>>>control. If you drop back on the gas, the tires can/will stall and
>>>>break free and it's the same as if you had the brake pedal mashed.
>>>>
>>>>If you use the gas and gears right, auto or stick, you can keep the
>>>>wheels turning enough to hold steering control. That is why I like
>
> 3rd
>
>>>>low. It has braking power without too much grab to stall the wheels
>
> and
>
>>>>start a slide. If I am in 2nd, I can stall the wheels if I don't keep
>>>>the rpm high, 1st is useless for descending.
>>>>
>>>>Trying to go too slow can get you into trouble.
>>>>
>>>>Going into neutral can get you killed besides being illegal in every
>>>>state or country I have checked in. In neutral, you are 'out' of
>>>>control.
>>>>
>>>>Mike
>>>>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>>>>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>>>>Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>>>>Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>>>>(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>>>>
>>>>Vince Hodgson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>0K, here's the thing....
>>>>>doesn't matter what you do, if you are starting to slide and its in
>
> gear
>
>>>>>and
>>>>>your foots off the brake, your tires are still turning, just not
>
> turning
>
>>>>>fast enough.
>>>>>
>>>>>therefore, you might as well be slamming on the binders, cause your
>
> not
>
>>>>>in
>>>>>control anymore.
>>>>>
>>>>>best bet in any situation it to slap it into neutral and use the
>
> brakes.
>
>>>>>that way the tires keep turning at the right speed and you can start
>
> to
>
>>>>>regain control with the brake peddle.
>>>>>
>>>>>just my 0.2 cents. had an ice situation happen in 4wd and did 360's
>
> down
>
>>>>>a
>>>>>hill (no brakes) and I definitely know if I kicked it into neutral
>
> or
>
>>>>>pushed in the clutch, i could have regained control again.
>>>>><xyzz4569@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
>>>>>news:1142369786.243719.87620@z34g2000cwc.goog legroups.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>>An automatic has plenty of compression braking if in 1st gear and
>
> low
>
>>>>>>range 4WD. I realize that a manual has more braking ability, but an
>>>>>>automatic still has a LOT.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Tom
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Lee Ayrton wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>You can count on one brake locking up before the others, making
>>>>>>>control
>>>>>>>on a slippery surface more, um, challenging. The OP was doubly
>>>>>>>hampered
>>>>>>>by his auto tranny that wouldn't hold him back the way a standard
>>>>>>>would
>>>>>>>have.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>
>

 

Good thing to do for anyone wanting to drive on ice and snow that also
desires wrinkle free fenders. Parking lots work as long as they don't
have any curbs or posts. Both beat high speed skidpad training where a
mistake tends to have somewhat more awe inspiring consequences.



Earle Horton proclaimed:

> The state cops on Colorado practice on Georgetown lake after it freezes up.
> It's fun to watch.
>
> Earle
>
> "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:44174F1B.C7664F11@sympatico.ca...
>
>>The OP was 'not' trying to stop, he was trying to do a controlled
>>decent.
>>
>>Putting a 4x4 vehicle into neutral is a last resort when you are 'out of
>>control'. You may be able to stop, but you won't have control.
>>
>>What works 'for me in my Jeep' is just by pure coincidence the 'exact'
>>way the Jeep engineers say to hold control in 'both' my CJ7's and my
>>XJ's owners manuals. Hmm.....
>>
>>What worked in your 2 wheel drive cruiser was right for the cruiser.
>>Neutral can save your butt when the proportioning valve won't lock the
>>rear drive wheels and they want to push you on through the intersection.
>>
>>As a cop, I 'highly' doubt you were trained in 4x4 control. It is
>>'nothing' like controlling a rear wheel drive cruiser, not even close.
>>Even a front wheel drive car reacts different than the rear wheel drive
>>cruiser. With the front wheel drive you 'give' it gas to control a
>>corner and your steering. In a part time 4x4 system, when you lock the
>>front brakes, All 4 wheels lock up and you go sideways faster than you
>>can blink. That is why you see a lot of them in the ditch on exit
>>ramps. They went to neutral and hit the brakes to slow down because
>>they 'heard that works' and zing, there they be in the ditch.
>>
>>As a cop you also should be aware that coasting downhill in neutral is
>>totally illegal for the reason you cannot hold control of the vehicle.
>>The suspension unloads and floats and you lose any engine braking
>>control.
>>
>>I am serious when I said I take out groups of Jeepers to learn how to
>>control their Jeeps in snow and ice. I have done a lot of trips with
>>bunches of them posted on the net at alt.binaries.pictures.autos.4x4.
>>
>>I have tried the stopping at a mark test many many times and have tried
>>all combinations to get stopped. In gear with no brakes until the last
>>second still works best.
>>
>>I 'highly' recommend folks hit an empty parking lot come first good snow
>>and try their 4x4 out. It will amaze and scare them with what can
>>happen fast. Be prepared to answer the cop correctly by saying you are
>>learning 4x4 when he accuses you of 'stunting' in the parking lot. ;-)
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>Spdloader wrote:
>>
>>>I have saved myself from accidents more times than I can count by
>
> shifting
>
>>>to neutral, from an automatic or standard transmission.
>>>
>>>I learned this driving technique when I was trained to be a law
>
> enforcement
>
>>>officer twenty years ago, by people trained and qualified to do so, not
>
> by
>
>>>someone that thinks what works for him in his Jeep is best for everyone.
>>>
>>> Shifting to neutral does not automatically make you "out of control" as
>
> you
>
>>>put it, but, helps regain control of the vehicle.
>>>
>>>Accelerating to regain control is not the correct answer if you are
>
> trying
>
>>>to STOP the vehicle. You're just making things worse.
>>>
>>>Try it next time you are on ice or a slick road and pulling up to an
>>>intersection, or coming up on a situation where you must stop or turn.
>
> Shift
>
>>>into neutral and see for yourself under which circumstances you maintain
>>>better control of your vehicle.
>>>
>>>Spdloader
>>>
>>>"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>>>news:44174066.7DB08BE4@sympatico.ca...
>>>
>>>>That happens to us all the time coming down sand pit and ravine walls.
>>>>We do these year round.
>>>>
>>>>Contrary to what might seem right, you have to give it some gas to
>
> keep
>
>>>>control. If you drop back on the gas, the tires can/will stall and
>>>>break free and it's the same as if you had the brake pedal mashed.
>>>>
>>>>If you use the gas and gears right, auto or stick, you can keep the
>>>>wheels turning enough to hold steering control. That is why I like
>
> 3rd
>
>>>>low. It has braking power without too much grab to stall the wheels
>
> and
>
>>>>start a slide. If I am in 2nd, I can stall the wheels if I don't keep
>>>>the rpm high, 1st is useless for descending.
>>>>
>>>>Trying to go too slow can get you into trouble.
>>>>
>>>>Going into neutral can get you killed besides being illegal in every
>>>>state or country I have checked in. In neutral, you are 'out' of
>>>>control.
>>>>
>>>>Mike
>>>>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>>>>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>>>>Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>>>>Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>>>>(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>>>>
>>>>Vince Hodgson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>0K, here's the thing....
>>>>>doesn't matter what you do, if you are starting to slide and its in
>
> gear
>
>>>>>and
>>>>>your foots off the brake, your tires are still turning, just not
>
> turning
>
>>>>>fast enough.
>>>>>
>>>>>therefore, you might as well be slamming on the binders, cause your
>
> not
>
>>>>>in
>>>>>control anymore.
>>>>>
>>>>>best bet in any situation it to slap it into neutral and use the
>
> brakes.
>
>>>>>that way the tires keep turning at the right speed and you can start
>
> to
>
>>>>>regain control with the brake peddle.
>>>>>
>>>>>just my 0.2 cents. had an ice situation happen in 4wd and did 360's
>
> down
>
>>>>>a
>>>>>hill (no brakes) and I definitely know if I kicked it into neutral
>
> or
>
>>>>>pushed in the clutch, i could have regained control again.
>>>>><xyzz4569@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
>>>>>news:1142369786.243719.87620@z34g2000cwc.goog legroups.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>>An automatic has plenty of compression braking if in 1st gear and
>
> low
>
>>>>>>range 4WD. I realize that a manual has more braking ability, but an
>>>>>>automatic still has a LOT.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Tom
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Lee Ayrton wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>You can count on one brake locking up before the others, making
>>>>>>>control
>>>>>>>on a slippery surface more, um, challenging. The OP was doubly
>>>>>>>hampered
>>>>>>>by his auto tranny that wouldn't hold him back the way a standard
>>>>>>>would
>>>>>>>have.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>
>