Hi Earle,
F**k it's your water! We need it in the American Canal at Glamis to
cool off: http://www.----------.com/temp/glamisCanal.jpg I thought we
lost the contract at least ten years ago, but we're still taking it. I
find it kind of interesting that there's supposed to be a Colorado River
the flows into Mexico. Hehehe
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:--------------------

Earle Horton wrote:
>
> Don't you mean *our* water?
>
> Earle, Colorado resident

 

Hi Earle,
F**k it's your water! We need it in the American Canal at Glamis to
cool off: http://www.----------.com/temp/glamisCanal.jpg I thought we
lost the contract at least ten years ago, but we're still taking it. I
find it kind of interesting that there's supposed to be a Colorado River
the flows into Mexico. Hehehe
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:--------------------

Earle Horton wrote:
>
> Don't you mean *our* water?
>
> Earle, Colorado resident

 

Hi Earle,
F**k it's your water! We need it in the American Canal at Glamis to
cool off: http://www.----------.com/temp/glamisCanal.jpg I thought we
lost the contract at least ten years ago, but we're still taking it. I
find it kind of interesting that there's supposed to be a Colorado River
the flows into Mexico. Hehehe
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:--------------------

Earle Horton wrote:
>
> Don't you mean *our* water?
>
> Earle, Colorado resident

 

Last post on this I promise:

>I am just quoting the way the owners manual says to do a controlled
> decent. I have a hard time understanding why you don't think the Jeep
> engineers were correct, sorry for the argument, but.... what you
> recommend is dangerous.

I never said the Jeep engineers are wrong. I never said that was the wrong
way to do a descent. It is my opinion that what is quoted in the manual is a
mixture between the best way and what WON'T get them (Jeep) sued for liable.
You have to use some horse sense along with instruction. I promise you my
dad made me read the freakin' manual with my very first Jeep CJ5 in 1977
before I was allowed to take it off road.

What I reccommend is AFTER the fact. AFTER you lose control. I have said
over and over again it was how to regain control, and it only takes a second
to do. Is it dangerous? YES. Is it more dangerous than sliding sideways down
an embankment towards a busy interstate, or towards a sheer cliff? NO.
Even in the slide you suggested I try in a parking lot by using the
emergency brake only. If you immediately slip the trans into neutral, you'll
almost immediately gain DIRECTIONAL control of the vehicle.
>
> If you read your owners manual, it is pretty plain about using part time
> low and a lower gear in the tranny for a decent as well as warning about
> severe understeer.

Again, I have no debate with the descent. I was only addressing regaining
control.
>
> It's on page 45 in my Cherokee manual where it says WARNING: Do not
> coast in Neutral....You might lose control of the vehicle and on page 55
> the above use low to descend at some speed for 'traction downhill'.
>
> That's all my point is...

Your point about how to come down a hill was never lost on me, you were just
addressing the opposite side of the incident. You were saying how he should
have started off to begin with. I was not. I was simply saying I shifted
into neutral in order to maintain control before the part of my drive that
ALWAYS resulted in a sideways slide, in order to regain control. A maneuver
I was taught that works each and every time I need it.

Your point; about how you "highly doubt" my prior law enforcement driver
training, isn't clear to me. I don't understand why or how you doubt that. I
don't understand why or how you know that all those vehicle accidents I
investigated were the direct result of them shifting to neutral, but since I
don't know you or your background, I won't make such assumptions about you
as you did me.

Spdloader

>
> Mike
>
> Spdloader wrote:
>>
>> Mike,
>>
>> You're not the only person who has ever played around in a parking lot
>> with
>> vehicles, it's just not relevant to the OPs question.
>>
>> You keep saying to "try it", like you're the only one that's ever done
>> it.
>> Nothing could be farther from the truth.
>>
>> Changing into neutral will help regain control of a vehicle in a lot of
>> situations, be it a 2WD, 4WD, or 10W Tandem dump truck
>>
>> You truly don't know what type of training I've had or by whom, but
>> honestly
>> I think if I were the ultimate authority on any given subject, (which I'm
>> not), you'd still try to argue with me, so I stop here.
>>
>>

 

Last post on this I promise:

>I am just quoting the way the owners manual says to do a controlled
> decent. I have a hard time understanding why you don't think the Jeep
> engineers were correct, sorry for the argument, but.... what you
> recommend is dangerous.

I never said the Jeep engineers are wrong. I never said that was the wrong
way to do a descent. It is my opinion that what is quoted in the manual is a
mixture between the best way and what WON'T get them (Jeep) sued for liable.
You have to use some horse sense along with instruction. I promise you my
dad made me read the freakin' manual with my very first Jeep CJ5 in 1977
before I was allowed to take it off road.

What I reccommend is AFTER the fact. AFTER you lose control. I have said
over and over again it was how to regain control, and it only takes a second
to do. Is it dangerous? YES. Is it more dangerous than sliding sideways down
an embankment towards a busy interstate, or towards a sheer cliff? NO.
Even in the slide you suggested I try in a parking lot by using the
emergency brake only. If you immediately slip the trans into neutral, you'll
almost immediately gain DIRECTIONAL control of the vehicle.
>
> If you read your owners manual, it is pretty plain about using part time
> low and a lower gear in the tranny for a decent as well as warning about
> severe understeer.

Again, I have no debate with the descent. I was only addressing regaining
control.
>
> It's on page 45 in my Cherokee manual where it says WARNING: Do not
> coast in Neutral....You might lose control of the vehicle and on page 55
> the above use low to descend at some speed for 'traction downhill'.
>
> That's all my point is...

Your point about how to come down a hill was never lost on me, you were just
addressing the opposite side of the incident. You were saying how he should
have started off to begin with. I was not. I was simply saying I shifted
into neutral in order to maintain control before the part of my drive that
ALWAYS resulted in a sideways slide, in order to regain control. A maneuver
I was taught that works each and every time I need it.

Your point; about how you "highly doubt" my prior law enforcement driver
training, isn't clear to me. I don't understand why or how you doubt that. I
don't understand why or how you know that all those vehicle accidents I
investigated were the direct result of them shifting to neutral, but since I
don't know you or your background, I won't make such assumptions about you
as you did me.

Spdloader

>
> Mike
>
> Spdloader wrote:
>>
>> Mike,
>>
>> You're not the only person who has ever played around in a parking lot
>> with
>> vehicles, it's just not relevant to the OPs question.
>>
>> You keep saying to "try it", like you're the only one that's ever done
>> it.
>> Nothing could be farther from the truth.
>>
>> Changing into neutral will help regain control of a vehicle in a lot of
>> situations, be it a 2WD, 4WD, or 10W Tandem dump truck
>>
>> You truly don't know what type of training I've had or by whom, but
>> honestly
>> I think if I were the ultimate authority on any given subject, (which I'm
>> not), you'd still try to argue with me, so I stop here.
>>
>>

 

Last post on this I promise:

>I am just quoting the way the owners manual says to do a controlled
> decent. I have a hard time understanding why you don't think the Jeep
> engineers were correct, sorry for the argument, but.... what you
> recommend is dangerous.

I never said the Jeep engineers are wrong. I never said that was the wrong
way to do a descent. It is my opinion that what is quoted in the manual is a
mixture between the best way and what WON'T get them (Jeep) sued for liable.
You have to use some horse sense along with instruction. I promise you my
dad made me read the freakin' manual with my very first Jeep CJ5 in 1977
before I was allowed to take it off road.

What I reccommend is AFTER the fact. AFTER you lose control. I have said
over and over again it was how to regain control, and it only takes a second
to do. Is it dangerous? YES. Is it more dangerous than sliding sideways down
an embankment towards a busy interstate, or towards a sheer cliff? NO.
Even in the slide you suggested I try in a parking lot by using the
emergency brake only. If you immediately slip the trans into neutral, you'll
almost immediately gain DIRECTIONAL control of the vehicle.
>
> If you read your owners manual, it is pretty plain about using part time
> low and a lower gear in the tranny for a decent as well as warning about
> severe understeer.

Again, I have no debate with the descent. I was only addressing regaining
control.
>
> It's on page 45 in my Cherokee manual where it says WARNING: Do not
> coast in Neutral....You might lose control of the vehicle and on page 55
> the above use low to descend at some speed for 'traction downhill'.
>
> That's all my point is...

Your point about how to come down a hill was never lost on me, you were just
addressing the opposite side of the incident. You were saying how he should
have started off to begin with. I was not. I was simply saying I shifted
into neutral in order to maintain control before the part of my drive that
ALWAYS resulted in a sideways slide, in order to regain control. A maneuver
I was taught that works each and every time I need it.

Your point; about how you "highly doubt" my prior law enforcement driver
training, isn't clear to me. I don't understand why or how you doubt that. I
don't understand why or how you know that all those vehicle accidents I
investigated were the direct result of them shifting to neutral, but since I
don't know you or your background, I won't make such assumptions about you
as you did me.

Spdloader

>
> Mike
>
> Spdloader wrote:
>>
>> Mike,
>>
>> You're not the only person who has ever played around in a parking lot
>> with
>> vehicles, it's just not relevant to the OPs question.
>>
>> You keep saying to "try it", like you're the only one that's ever done
>> it.
>> Nothing could be farther from the truth.
>>
>> Changing into neutral will help regain control of a vehicle in a lot of
>> situations, be it a 2WD, 4WD, or 10W Tandem dump truck
>>
>> You truly don't know what type of training I've had or by whom, but
>> honestly
>> I think if I were the ultimate authority on any given subject, (which I'm
>> not), you'd still try to argue with me, so I stop here.
>>
>>

 

Last post on this I promise:

>I am just quoting the way the owners manual says to do a controlled
> decent. I have a hard time understanding why you don't think the Jeep
> engineers were correct, sorry for the argument, but.... what you
> recommend is dangerous.

I never said the Jeep engineers are wrong. I never said that was the wrong
way to do a descent. It is my opinion that what is quoted in the manual is a
mixture between the best way and what WON'T get them (Jeep) sued for liable.
You have to use some horse sense along with instruction. I promise you my
dad made me read the freakin' manual with my very first Jeep CJ5 in 1977
before I was allowed to take it off road.

What I reccommend is AFTER the fact. AFTER you lose control. I have said
over and over again it was how to regain control, and it only takes a second
to do. Is it dangerous? YES. Is it more dangerous than sliding sideways down
an embankment towards a busy interstate, or towards a sheer cliff? NO.
Even in the slide you suggested I try in a parking lot by using the
emergency brake only. If you immediately slip the trans into neutral, you'll
almost immediately gain DIRECTIONAL control of the vehicle.
>
> If you read your owners manual, it is pretty plain about using part time
> low and a lower gear in the tranny for a decent as well as warning about
> severe understeer.

Again, I have no debate with the descent. I was only addressing regaining
control.
>
> It's on page 45 in my Cherokee manual where it says WARNING: Do not
> coast in Neutral....You might lose control of the vehicle and on page 55
> the above use low to descend at some speed for 'traction downhill'.
>
> That's all my point is...

Your point about how to come down a hill was never lost on me, you were just
addressing the opposite side of the incident. You were saying how he should
have started off to begin with. I was not. I was simply saying I shifted
into neutral in order to maintain control before the part of my drive that
ALWAYS resulted in a sideways slide, in order to regain control. A maneuver
I was taught that works each and every time I need it.

Your point; about how you "highly doubt" my prior law enforcement driver
training, isn't clear to me. I don't understand why or how you doubt that. I
don't understand why or how you know that all those vehicle accidents I
investigated were the direct result of them shifting to neutral, but since I
don't know you or your background, I won't make such assumptions about you
as you did me.

Spdloader

>
> Mike
>
> Spdloader wrote:
>>
>> Mike,
>>
>> You're not the only person who has ever played around in a parking lot
>> with
>> vehicles, it's just not relevant to the OPs question.
>>
>> You keep saying to "try it", like you're the only one that's ever done
>> it.
>> Nothing could be farther from the truth.
>>
>> Changing into neutral will help regain control of a vehicle in a lot of
>> situations, be it a 2WD, 4WD, or 10W Tandem dump truck
>>
>> You truly don't know what type of training I've had or by whom, but
>> honestly
>> I think if I were the ultimate authority on any given subject, (which I'm
>> not), you'd still try to argue with me, so I stop here.
>>
>>

 

Spdloader wrote:
>
> What I reccommend is AFTER the fact. AFTER you lose control. I have said
> over and over again it was how to regain control, and it only takes a second
> to do. Is it dangerous? YES. Is it more dangerous than sliding sideways down
> an embankment towards a busy interstate, or towards a sheer cliff? NO.
> Even in the slide you suggested I try in a parking lot by using the
> emergency brake only. If you immediately slip the trans into neutral, you'll
> almost immediately gain DIRECTIONAL control of the vehicle.
> >

Sorry, but there is just the one big point you don't seem to grasp about
part time 4x4.... It 'locks' the front and rear axles together.

When the back wheels are locked by the emergency brake, the front wheels
'CANNOT' rotate!

When the front brakes are locked, the rear wheels 'CANNOT' rotate even
with the proportioning valve.

You can 'Not' regain control by using neutral in part time 4x4 because
the front and rear axles are locked together and one 'must' scuff which
loses traction.

If you are sliding down a hill sideways, you 'can' dump the shifter to 2
wheel drive and 'then' use neutral to attempt to regain directional
control.

You 'cannot' do this with the front and rear locked together unless you
get 'on' the gas to pull the front end around.

It is just physically impossible in part time 4x4.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

 

Spdloader wrote:
>
> What I reccommend is AFTER the fact. AFTER you lose control. I have said
> over and over again it was how to regain control, and it only takes a second
> to do. Is it dangerous? YES. Is it more dangerous than sliding sideways down
> an embankment towards a busy interstate, or towards a sheer cliff? NO.
> Even in the slide you suggested I try in a parking lot by using the
> emergency brake only. If you immediately slip the trans into neutral, you'll
> almost immediately gain DIRECTIONAL control of the vehicle.
> >

Sorry, but there is just the one big point you don't seem to grasp about
part time 4x4.... It 'locks' the front and rear axles together.

When the back wheels are locked by the emergency brake, the front wheels
'CANNOT' rotate!

When the front brakes are locked, the rear wheels 'CANNOT' rotate even
with the proportioning valve.

You can 'Not' regain control by using neutral in part time 4x4 because
the front and rear axles are locked together and one 'must' scuff which
loses traction.

If you are sliding down a hill sideways, you 'can' dump the shifter to 2
wheel drive and 'then' use neutral to attempt to regain directional
control.

You 'cannot' do this with the front and rear locked together unless you
get 'on' the gas to pull the front end around.

It is just physically impossible in part time 4x4.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

 

Spdloader wrote:
>
> What I reccommend is AFTER the fact. AFTER you lose control. I have said
> over and over again it was how to regain control, and it only takes a second
> to do. Is it dangerous? YES. Is it more dangerous than sliding sideways down
> an embankment towards a busy interstate, or towards a sheer cliff? NO.
> Even in the slide you suggested I try in a parking lot by using the
> emergency brake only. If you immediately slip the trans into neutral, you'll
> almost immediately gain DIRECTIONAL control of the vehicle.
> >

Sorry, but there is just the one big point you don't seem to grasp about
part time 4x4.... It 'locks' the front and rear axles together.

When the back wheels are locked by the emergency brake, the front wheels
'CANNOT' rotate!

When the front brakes are locked, the rear wheels 'CANNOT' rotate even
with the proportioning valve.

You can 'Not' regain control by using neutral in part time 4x4 because
the front and rear axles are locked together and one 'must' scuff which
loses traction.

If you are sliding down a hill sideways, you 'can' dump the shifter to 2
wheel drive and 'then' use neutral to attempt to regain directional
control.

You 'cannot' do this with the front and rear locked together unless you
get 'on' the gas to pull the front end around.

It is just physically impossible in part time 4x4.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)