Will Honea

Actually, Mike, he is correct in one respect - a jet turbine will run
on about anything that can be pumped thru the fuel system andl ignite.
It's been 30+ years, but all the older jets I flew had a page or two
in the flight manuls listing alternate fuels in order of preference.
It noted all sorts of operational restrictions when we had to stray
from JP4, but the list had some surprising and interesting alternates
listed. I do remember that Jet A/B were the preferred alternates but
Av gas (115/145) was right up there as was leaded automotive fuel as
well as commercial kerosene and ethanol. I don't recall which spec it
was, but commercial diesel was also on the list. The caveats were
that virtually everything required flight at temperatures well above
the rated operational altitude for JP4 and most would affect EGT
pretty dramatically. I never tried it, but a couple of guys who did
said that starting a J85 on av gas without over-temping the tailpipe
was virtually impossible. Some alternates were specifically limited
to emergency use and one-time flight only, and just about anything
besides Jet A/B required anything from a local teardown to a depot
overhaul after use. Leaded auto fuel required replacing the turbine
buckets due to the deposits. That was just for the engine - one Chief
of Maintainence always briefed that if he every had to purge the
tanks, etc. on one of his birds, the responsible pilot would gain a
permanent 2 octave boost to his vocal range.

On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:44:03 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
wrote:

> Seeing as both of your qualifications mean ---- on the internet, Bill is
> 100% correct....
>
> 'I' have no qualifications and 'I' think saying you can use Coleman or
> pump gas in a Jet engine in a pinch is BS.
>
> Something like saying you can add a gallon or two of gas to a tank of
> diesel to get you to a gas station. Very dangerous advice.
>
> Ah Yup, maybe some 'can' do that, but to say that in a world wide forum
> is wrong in my mind.
>
> Hey, I could be wrong, it sure wouldn't be the first time, but.....
>
> I see too much of 'If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em
> with BS' in that post.
>
> And do you know what? Jeeps don't even use diesel engines!
>
> LOL!
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> "L.W.(ßill) ------ III" wrote:
> >
> > YOU ARE WRONG! Dam it! Use the internet and look for yourself!
> > You're going to kill someone!
> > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> >
> > Ted Azito wrote:
> > >
> > > If they don't show very different levels for Jet-A (JP-5) and Jet-B
> > > (JP-4) then it's their chart that's wrong.
> > >
> > > Every airport in the country big enough to sell jet fuel has a fuel
> > > truck which is amost always diesel and is almost always operated on
> > > Jet A for convenience. Call the local FBO, don't take my word for it.
> > >
> > > All aircraft turbine engines will start and run on #1 or #2 diesel,
> > > or for that matter car gas, avgas, K-1 Kero, Coleman fuel, or a bunch
> > > of other things. The _legal_ fuel for certificated aircraft is what is
> > > specified on the aircraft's Type Certificate Data Sheet, and is almost
> > > always Jet-A and whatever other alternate and emergency fuels the
> > > Flight Manual specifies, if any, and under the specified limits. Some
> > > aircraft-like piston airplanes have for legally burning car gas-have a
> > > Supplemental Type Certificate enabling sustained use of other fuels,
> > > again under certain conditions. Ag operators run PT6 Pratt powered
> > > aircraft on #2 Diesel routinely, legally, and safely.
> > >
> > > Legality aside should you put diesel fuel in your Lear? Probably not,
> > > since although the engines may burn it satisffactorily, the fuel lines
> > > will freeze up at cruise altitude and you will flame out and possibly
> > > tear up the fuel controllers. On the other hand I know a guy who runs
> > > his Soloy Bell 47G on diesel fuel and since he lives in Mississippi
> > > and never flies more than two or three thousand feet AGL-and his fuel
> > > never gets colder than 40 (above) F.-it'll never cause a problem. (He
> > > did trim his fuel controller on the diesel fuel. Important.)
> > >
> > > Generally turbine operators, except ag operators and homebuilders
> > > with surplus or converted APU engines, are not price conscious and
> > > that's why jet fuel costs what FBOs charge. Wholesale it's price is
> > > about the same as diesel.
> > >
> > > I know this is hard information for many people to comprehend, but if
> > > you will ask a petroleum engineer _who has worked with these fuels_,
> > > or any shop dealing with ST6 or ag/experimental PT6 applications, they
> > > will verify that it is so. I really have been there and done that.


--
Will Honea

L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III

I think you're believing an old wives tale, gasoline, alcohol and
Kerosene are so total different, it's just not possible. This is not
like you ran out of gas and put a bottle of your favorite booze in to
get home, also a figment of someone imagination, although that's not
going to kill anyone. Of course you're welcome to document it. The ARMY
does have multi fuel tanks.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Will Honea wrote:
>
> Actually, Mike, he is correct in one respect - a jet turbine will run
> on about anything that can be pumped thru the fuel system andl ignite.
> It's been 30+ years, but all the older jets I flew had a page or two
> in the flight manuls listing alternate fuels in order of preference.
> It noted all sorts of operational restrictions when we had to stray
> from JP4, but the list had some surprising and interesting alternates
> listed. I do remember that Jet A/B were the preferred alternates but
> Av gas (115/145) was right up there as was leaded automotive fuel as
> well as commercial kerosene and ethanol. I don't recall which spec it
> was, but commercial diesel was also on the list. The caveats were
> that virtually everything required flight at temperatures well above
> the rated operational altitude for JP4 and most would affect EGT
> pretty dramatically. I never tried it, but a couple of guys who did
> said that starting a J85 on av gas without over-temping the tailpipe
> was virtually impossible. Some alternates were specifically limited
> to emergency use and one-time flight only, and just about anything
> besides Jet A/B required anything from a local teardown to a depot
> overhaul after use. Leaded auto fuel required replacing the turbine
> buckets due to the deposits. That was just for the engine - one Chief
> of Maintainence always briefed that if he every had to purge the
> tanks, etc. on one of his birds, the responsible pilot would gain a
> permanent 2 octave boost to his vocal range.

L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III

I think you're believing an old wives tale, gasoline, alcohol and
Kerosene are so total different, it's just not possible. This is not
like you ran out of gas and put a bottle of your favorite booze in to
get home, also a figment of someone imagination, although that's not
going to kill anyone. Of course you're welcome to document it. The ARMY
does have multi fuel tanks.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Will Honea wrote:
>
> Actually, Mike, he is correct in one respect - a jet turbine will run
> on about anything that can be pumped thru the fuel system andl ignite.
> It's been 30+ years, but all the older jets I flew had a page or two
> in the flight manuls listing alternate fuels in order of preference.
> It noted all sorts of operational restrictions when we had to stray
> from JP4, but the list had some surprising and interesting alternates
> listed. I do remember that Jet A/B were the preferred alternates but
> Av gas (115/145) was right up there as was leaded automotive fuel as
> well as commercial kerosene and ethanol. I don't recall which spec it
> was, but commercial diesel was also on the list. The caveats were
> that virtually everything required flight at temperatures well above
> the rated operational altitude for JP4 and most would affect EGT
> pretty dramatically. I never tried it, but a couple of guys who did
> said that starting a J85 on av gas without over-temping the tailpipe
> was virtually impossible. Some alternates were specifically limited
> to emergency use and one-time flight only, and just about anything
> besides Jet A/B required anything from a local teardown to a depot
> overhaul after use. Leaded auto fuel required replacing the turbine
> buckets due to the deposits. That was just for the engine - one Chief
> of Maintainence always briefed that if he every had to purge the
> tanks, etc. on one of his birds, the responsible pilot would gain a
> permanent 2 octave boost to his vocal range.

L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III

I think you're believing an old wives tale, gasoline, alcohol and
Kerosene are so total different, it's just not possible. This is not
like you ran out of gas and put a bottle of your favorite booze in to
get home, also a figment of someone imagination, although that's not
going to kill anyone. Of course you're welcome to document it. The ARMY
does have multi fuel tanks.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Will Honea wrote:
>
> Actually, Mike, he is correct in one respect - a jet turbine will run
> on about anything that can be pumped thru the fuel system andl ignite.
> It's been 30+ years, but all the older jets I flew had a page or two
> in the flight manuls listing alternate fuels in order of preference.
> It noted all sorts of operational restrictions when we had to stray
> from JP4, but the list had some surprising and interesting alternates
> listed. I do remember that Jet A/B were the preferred alternates but
> Av gas (115/145) was right up there as was leaded automotive fuel as
> well as commercial kerosene and ethanol. I don't recall which spec it
> was, but commercial diesel was also on the list. The caveats were
> that virtually everything required flight at temperatures well above
> the rated operational altitude for JP4 and most would affect EGT
> pretty dramatically. I never tried it, but a couple of guys who did
> said that starting a J85 on av gas without over-temping the tailpipe
> was virtually impossible. Some alternates were specifically limited
> to emergency use and one-time flight only, and just about anything
> besides Jet A/B required anything from a local teardown to a depot
> overhaul after use. Leaded auto fuel required replacing the turbine
> buckets due to the deposits. That was just for the engine - one Chief
> of Maintainence always briefed that if he every had to purge the
> tanks, etc. on one of his birds, the responsible pilot would gain a
> permanent 2 octave boost to his vocal range.

L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III

I think you're believing an old wives tale, gasoline, alcohol and
Kerosene are so total different, it's just not possible. This is not
like you ran out of gas and put a bottle of your favorite booze in to
get home, also a figment of someone imagination, although that's not
going to kill anyone. Of course you're welcome to document it. The ARMY
does have multi fuel tanks.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Will Honea wrote:
>
> Actually, Mike, he is correct in one respect - a jet turbine will run
> on about anything that can be pumped thru the fuel system andl ignite.
> It's been 30+ years, but all the older jets I flew had a page or two
> in the flight manuls listing alternate fuels in order of preference.
> It noted all sorts of operational restrictions when we had to stray
> from JP4, but the list had some surprising and interesting alternates
> listed. I do remember that Jet A/B were the preferred alternates but
> Av gas (115/145) was right up there as was leaded automotive fuel as
> well as commercial kerosene and ethanol. I don't recall which spec it
> was, but commercial diesel was also on the list. The caveats were
> that virtually everything required flight at temperatures well above
> the rated operational altitude for JP4 and most would affect EGT
> pretty dramatically. I never tried it, but a couple of guys who did
> said that starting a J85 on av gas without over-temping the tailpipe
> was virtually impossible. Some alternates were specifically limited
> to emergency use and one-time flight only, and just about anything
> besides Jet A/B required anything from a local teardown to a depot
> overhaul after use. Leaded auto fuel required replacing the turbine
> buckets due to the deposits. That was just for the engine - one Chief
> of Maintainence always briefed that if he every had to purge the
> tanks, etc. on one of his birds, the responsible pilot would gain a
> permanent 2 octave boost to his vocal range.

Mike Romain

So will just any old kind of 'fuel' work in a Jeep diesel then?

Mike

Will Honea wrote:
>
> Actually, Mike, he is correct in one respect - a jet turbine will run
> on about anything that can be pumped thru the fuel system andl ignite.
> It's been 30+ years, but all the older jets I flew had a page or two
> in the flight manuls listing alternate fuels in order of preference.
> It noted all sorts of operational restrictions when we had to stray
> from JP4, but the list had some surprising and interesting alternates
> listed. I do remember that Jet A/B were the preferred alternates but
> Av gas (115/145) was right up there as was leaded automotive fuel as
> well as commercial kerosene and ethanol. I don't recall which spec it
> was, but commercial diesel was also on the list. The caveats were
> that virtually everything required flight at temperatures well above
> the rated operational altitude for JP4 and most would affect EGT
> pretty dramatically. I never tried it, but a couple of guys who did
> said that starting a J85 on av gas without over-temping the tailpipe
> was virtually impossible. Some alternates were specifically limited
> to emergency use and one-time flight only, and just about anything
> besides Jet A/B required anything from a local teardown to a depot
> overhaul after use. Leaded auto fuel required replacing the turbine
> buckets due to the deposits. That was just for the engine - one Chief
> of Maintainence always briefed that if he every had to purge the
> tanks, etc. on one of his birds, the responsible pilot would gain a
> permanent 2 octave boost to his vocal range.
>
> On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:44:03 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
> > Seeing as both of your qualifications mean ---- on the internet, Bill is
> > 100% correct....
> >
> > 'I' have no qualifications and 'I' think saying you can use Coleman or
> > pump gas in a Jet engine in a pinch is BS.
> >
> > Something like saying you can add a gallon or two of gas to a tank of
> > diesel to get you to a gas station. Very dangerous advice.
> >
> > Ah Yup, maybe some 'can' do that, but to say that in a world wide forum
> > is wrong in my mind.
> >
> > Hey, I could be wrong, it sure wouldn't be the first time, but.....
> >
> > I see too much of 'If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em
> > with BS' in that post.
> >
> > And do you know what? Jeeps don't even use diesel engines!
> >
> > LOL!
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> >
> > "L.W.(ßill) ------ III" wrote:
> > >
> > > YOU ARE WRONG! Dam it! Use the internet and look for yourself!
> > > You're going to kill someone!
> > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> > >
> > > Ted Azito wrote:
> > > >
> > > > If they don't show very different levels for Jet-A (JP-5) and Jet-B
> > > > (JP-4) then it's their chart that's wrong.
> > > >
> > > > Every airport in the country big enough to sell jet fuel has a fuel
> > > > truck which is amost always diesel and is almost always operated on
> > > > Jet A for convenience. Call the local FBO, don't take my word for it.
> > > >
> > > > All aircraft turbine engines will start and run on #1 or #2 diesel,
> > > > or for that matter car gas, avgas, K-1 Kero, Coleman fuel, or a bunch
> > > > of other things. The _legal_ fuel for certificated aircraft is what is
> > > > specified on the aircraft's Type Certificate Data Sheet, and is almost
> > > > always Jet-A and whatever other alternate and emergency fuels the
> > > > Flight Manual specifies, if any, and under the specified limits. Some
> > > > aircraft-like piston airplanes have for legally burning car gas-have a
> > > > Supplemental Type Certificate enabling sustained use of other fuels,
> > > > again under certain conditions. Ag operators run PT6 Pratt powered
> > > > aircraft on #2 Diesel routinely, legally, and safely.
> > > >
> > > > Legality aside should you put diesel fuel in your Lear? Probably not,
> > > > since although the engines may burn it satisffactorily, the fuel lines
> > > > will freeze up at cruise altitude and you will flame out and possibly
> > > > tear up the fuel controllers. On the other hand I know a guy who runs
> > > > his Soloy Bell 47G on diesel fuel and since he lives in Mississippi
> > > > and never flies more than two or three thousand feet AGL-and his fuel
> > > > never gets colder than 40 (above) F.-it'll never cause a problem. (He
> > > > did trim his fuel controller on the diesel fuel. Important.)
> > > >
> > > > Generally turbine operators, except ag operators and homebuilders
> > > > with surplus or converted APU engines, are not price conscious and
> > > > that's why jet fuel costs what FBOs charge. Wholesale it's price is
> > > > about the same as diesel.
> > > >
> > > > I know this is hard information for many people to comprehend, but if
> > > > you will ask a petroleum engineer _who has worked with these fuels_,
> > > > or any shop dealing with ST6 or ag/experimental PT6 applications, they
> > > > will verify that it is so. I really have been there and done that.
>
> --
> Will Honea

Mike Romain

So will just any old kind of 'fuel' work in a Jeep diesel then?

Mike

Will Honea wrote:
>
> Actually, Mike, he is correct in one respect - a jet turbine will run
> on about anything that can be pumped thru the fuel system andl ignite.
> It's been 30+ years, but all the older jets I flew had a page or two
> in the flight manuls listing alternate fuels in order of preference.
> It noted all sorts of operational restrictions when we had to stray
> from JP4, but the list had some surprising and interesting alternates
> listed. I do remember that Jet A/B were the preferred alternates but
> Av gas (115/145) was right up there as was leaded automotive fuel as
> well as commercial kerosene and ethanol. I don't recall which spec it
> was, but commercial diesel was also on the list. The caveats were
> that virtually everything required flight at temperatures well above
> the rated operational altitude for JP4 and most would affect EGT
> pretty dramatically. I never tried it, but a couple of guys who did
> said that starting a J85 on av gas without over-temping the tailpipe
> was virtually impossible. Some alternates were specifically limited
> to emergency use and one-time flight only, and just about anything
> besides Jet A/B required anything from a local teardown to a depot
> overhaul after use. Leaded auto fuel required replacing the turbine
> buckets due to the deposits. That was just for the engine - one Chief
> of Maintainence always briefed that if he every had to purge the
> tanks, etc. on one of his birds, the responsible pilot would gain a
> permanent 2 octave boost to his vocal range.
>
> On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:44:03 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
> > Seeing as both of your qualifications mean ---- on the internet, Bill is
> > 100% correct....
> >
> > 'I' have no qualifications and 'I' think saying you can use Coleman or
> > pump gas in a Jet engine in a pinch is BS.
> >
> > Something like saying you can add a gallon or two of gas to a tank of
> > diesel to get you to a gas station. Very dangerous advice.
> >
> > Ah Yup, maybe some 'can' do that, but to say that in a world wide forum
> > is wrong in my mind.
> >
> > Hey, I could be wrong, it sure wouldn't be the first time, but.....
> >
> > I see too much of 'If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em
> > with BS' in that post.
> >
> > And do you know what? Jeeps don't even use diesel engines!
> >
> > LOL!
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> >
> > "L.W.(ßill) ------ III" wrote:
> > >
> > > YOU ARE WRONG! Dam it! Use the internet and look for yourself!
> > > You're going to kill someone!
> > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> > >
> > > Ted Azito wrote:
> > > >
> > > > If they don't show very different levels for Jet-A (JP-5) and Jet-B
> > > > (JP-4) then it's their chart that's wrong.
> > > >
> > > > Every airport in the country big enough to sell jet fuel has a fuel
> > > > truck which is amost always diesel and is almost always operated on
> > > > Jet A for convenience. Call the local FBO, don't take my word for it.
> > > >
> > > > All aircraft turbine engines will start and run on #1 or #2 diesel,
> > > > or for that matter car gas, avgas, K-1 Kero, Coleman fuel, or a bunch
> > > > of other things. The _legal_ fuel for certificated aircraft is what is
> > > > specified on the aircraft's Type Certificate Data Sheet, and is almost
> > > > always Jet-A and whatever other alternate and emergency fuels the
> > > > Flight Manual specifies, if any, and under the specified limits. Some
> > > > aircraft-like piston airplanes have for legally burning car gas-have a
> > > > Supplemental Type Certificate enabling sustained use of other fuels,
> > > > again under certain conditions. Ag operators run PT6 Pratt powered
> > > > aircraft on #2 Diesel routinely, legally, and safely.
> > > >
> > > > Legality aside should you put diesel fuel in your Lear? Probably not,
> > > > since although the engines may burn it satisffactorily, the fuel lines
> > > > will freeze up at cruise altitude and you will flame out and possibly
> > > > tear up the fuel controllers. On the other hand I know a guy who runs
> > > > his Soloy Bell 47G on diesel fuel and since he lives in Mississippi
> > > > and never flies more than two or three thousand feet AGL-and his fuel
> > > > never gets colder than 40 (above) F.-it'll never cause a problem. (He
> > > > did trim his fuel controller on the diesel fuel. Important.)
> > > >
> > > > Generally turbine operators, except ag operators and homebuilders
> > > > with surplus or converted APU engines, are not price conscious and
> > > > that's why jet fuel costs what FBOs charge. Wholesale it's price is
> > > > about the same as diesel.
> > > >
> > > > I know this is hard information for many people to comprehend, but if
> > > > you will ask a petroleum engineer _who has worked with these fuels_,
> > > > or any shop dealing with ST6 or ag/experimental PT6 applications, they
> > > > will verify that it is so. I really have been there and done that.
>
> --
> Will Honea

Mike Romain

So will just any old kind of 'fuel' work in a Jeep diesel then?

Mike

Will Honea wrote:
>
> Actually, Mike, he is correct in one respect - a jet turbine will run
> on about anything that can be pumped thru the fuel system andl ignite.
> It's been 30+ years, but all the older jets I flew had a page or two
> in the flight manuls listing alternate fuels in order of preference.
> It noted all sorts of operational restrictions when we had to stray
> from JP4, but the list had some surprising and interesting alternates
> listed. I do remember that Jet A/B were the preferred alternates but
> Av gas (115/145) was right up there as was leaded automotive fuel as
> well as commercial kerosene and ethanol. I don't recall which spec it
> was, but commercial diesel was also on the list. The caveats were
> that virtually everything required flight at temperatures well above
> the rated operational altitude for JP4 and most would affect EGT
> pretty dramatically. I never tried it, but a couple of guys who did
> said that starting a J85 on av gas without over-temping the tailpipe
> was virtually impossible. Some alternates were specifically limited
> to emergency use and one-time flight only, and just about anything
> besides Jet A/B required anything from a local teardown to a depot
> overhaul after use. Leaded auto fuel required replacing the turbine
> buckets due to the deposits. That was just for the engine - one Chief
> of Maintainence always briefed that if he every had to purge the
> tanks, etc. on one of his birds, the responsible pilot would gain a
> permanent 2 octave boost to his vocal range.
>
> On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:44:03 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
> > Seeing as both of your qualifications mean ---- on the internet, Bill is
> > 100% correct....
> >
> > 'I' have no qualifications and 'I' think saying you can use Coleman or
> > pump gas in a Jet engine in a pinch is BS.
> >
> > Something like saying you can add a gallon or two of gas to a tank of
> > diesel to get you to a gas station. Very dangerous advice.
> >
> > Ah Yup, maybe some 'can' do that, but to say that in a world wide forum
> > is wrong in my mind.
> >
> > Hey, I could be wrong, it sure wouldn't be the first time, but.....
> >
> > I see too much of 'If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em
> > with BS' in that post.
> >
> > And do you know what? Jeeps don't even use diesel engines!
> >
> > LOL!
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> >
> > "L.W.(ßill) ------ III" wrote:
> > >
> > > YOU ARE WRONG! Dam it! Use the internet and look for yourself!
> > > You're going to kill someone!
> > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> > >
> > > Ted Azito wrote:
> > > >
> > > > If they don't show very different levels for Jet-A (JP-5) and Jet-B
> > > > (JP-4) then it's their chart that's wrong.
> > > >
> > > > Every airport in the country big enough to sell jet fuel has a fuel
> > > > truck which is amost always diesel and is almost always operated on
> > > > Jet A for convenience. Call the local FBO, don't take my word for it.
> > > >
> > > > All aircraft turbine engines will start and run on #1 or #2 diesel,
> > > > or for that matter car gas, avgas, K-1 Kero, Coleman fuel, or a bunch
> > > > of other things. The _legal_ fuel for certificated aircraft is what is
> > > > specified on the aircraft's Type Certificate Data Sheet, and is almost
> > > > always Jet-A and whatever other alternate and emergency fuels the
> > > > Flight Manual specifies, if any, and under the specified limits. Some
> > > > aircraft-like piston airplanes have for legally burning car gas-have a
> > > > Supplemental Type Certificate enabling sustained use of other fuels,
> > > > again under certain conditions. Ag operators run PT6 Pratt powered
> > > > aircraft on #2 Diesel routinely, legally, and safely.
> > > >
> > > > Legality aside should you put diesel fuel in your Lear? Probably not,
> > > > since although the engines may burn it satisffactorily, the fuel lines
> > > > will freeze up at cruise altitude and you will flame out and possibly
> > > > tear up the fuel controllers. On the other hand I know a guy who runs
> > > > his Soloy Bell 47G on diesel fuel and since he lives in Mississippi
> > > > and never flies more than two or three thousand feet AGL-and his fuel
> > > > never gets colder than 40 (above) F.-it'll never cause a problem. (He
> > > > did trim his fuel controller on the diesel fuel. Important.)
> > > >
> > > > Generally turbine operators, except ag operators and homebuilders
> > > > with surplus or converted APU engines, are not price conscious and
> > > > that's why jet fuel costs what FBOs charge. Wholesale it's price is
> > > > about the same as diesel.
> > > >
> > > > I know this is hard information for many people to comprehend, but if
> > > > you will ask a petroleum engineer _who has worked with these fuels_,
> > > > or any shop dealing with ST6 or ag/experimental PT6 applications, they
> > > > will verify that it is so. I really have been there and done that.
>
> --
> Will Honea

Mike Romain

So will just any old kind of 'fuel' work in a Jeep diesel then?

Mike

Will Honea wrote:
>
> Actually, Mike, he is correct in one respect - a jet turbine will run
> on about anything that can be pumped thru the fuel system andl ignite.
> It's been 30+ years, but all the older jets I flew had a page or two
> in the flight manuls listing alternate fuels in order of preference.
> It noted all sorts of operational restrictions when we had to stray
> from JP4, but the list had some surprising and interesting alternates
> listed. I do remember that Jet A/B were the preferred alternates but
> Av gas (115/145) was right up there as was leaded automotive fuel as
> well as commercial kerosene and ethanol. I don't recall which spec it
> was, but commercial diesel was also on the list. The caveats were
> that virtually everything required flight at temperatures well above
> the rated operational altitude for JP4 and most would affect EGT
> pretty dramatically. I never tried it, but a couple of guys who did
> said that starting a J85 on av gas without over-temping the tailpipe
> was virtually impossible. Some alternates were specifically limited
> to emergency use and one-time flight only, and just about anything
> besides Jet A/B required anything from a local teardown to a depot
> overhaul after use. Leaded auto fuel required replacing the turbine
> buckets due to the deposits. That was just for the engine - one Chief
> of Maintainence always briefed that if he every had to purge the
> tanks, etc. on one of his birds, the responsible pilot would gain a
> permanent 2 octave boost to his vocal range.
>
> On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:44:03 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
> > Seeing as both of your qualifications mean ---- on the internet, Bill is
> > 100% correct....
> >
> > 'I' have no qualifications and 'I' think saying you can use Coleman or
> > pump gas in a Jet engine in a pinch is BS.
> >
> > Something like saying you can add a gallon or two of gas to a tank of
> > diesel to get you to a gas station. Very dangerous advice.
> >
> > Ah Yup, maybe some 'can' do that, but to say that in a world wide forum
> > is wrong in my mind.
> >
> > Hey, I could be wrong, it sure wouldn't be the first time, but.....
> >
> > I see too much of 'If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em
> > with BS' in that post.
> >
> > And do you know what? Jeeps don't even use diesel engines!
> >
> > LOL!
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> >
> > "L.W.(ßill) ------ III" wrote:
> > >
> > > YOU ARE WRONG! Dam it! Use the internet and look for yourself!
> > > You're going to kill someone!
> > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> > >
> > > Ted Azito wrote:
> > > >
> > > > If they don't show very different levels for Jet-A (JP-5) and Jet-B
> > > > (JP-4) then it's their chart that's wrong.
> > > >
> > > > Every airport in the country big enough to sell jet fuel has a fuel
> > > > truck which is amost always diesel and is almost always operated on
> > > > Jet A for convenience. Call the local FBO, don't take my word for it.
> > > >
> > > > All aircraft turbine engines will start and run on #1 or #2 diesel,
> > > > or for that matter car gas, avgas, K-1 Kero, Coleman fuel, or a bunch
> > > > of other things. The _legal_ fuel for certificated aircraft is what is
> > > > specified on the aircraft's Type Certificate Data Sheet, and is almost
> > > > always Jet-A and whatever other alternate and emergency fuels the
> > > > Flight Manual specifies, if any, and under the specified limits. Some
> > > > aircraft-like piston airplanes have for legally burning car gas-have a
> > > > Supplemental Type Certificate enabling sustained use of other fuels,
> > > > again under certain conditions. Ag operators run PT6 Pratt powered
> > > > aircraft on #2 Diesel routinely, legally, and safely.
> > > >
> > > > Legality aside should you put diesel fuel in your Lear? Probably not,
> > > > since although the engines may burn it satisffactorily, the fuel lines
> > > > will freeze up at cruise altitude and you will flame out and possibly
> > > > tear up the fuel controllers. On the other hand I know a guy who runs
> > > > his Soloy Bell 47G on diesel fuel and since he lives in Mississippi
> > > > and never flies more than two or three thousand feet AGL-and his fuel
> > > > never gets colder than 40 (above) F.-it'll never cause a problem. (He
> > > > did trim his fuel controller on the diesel fuel. Important.)
> > > >
> > > > Generally turbine operators, except ag operators and homebuilders
> > > > with surplus or converted APU engines, are not price conscious and
> > > > that's why jet fuel costs what FBOs charge. Wholesale it's price is
> > > > about the same as diesel.
> > > >
> > > > I know this is hard information for many people to comprehend, but if
> > > > you will ask a petroleum engineer _who has worked with these fuels_,
> > > > or any shop dealing with ST6 or ag/experimental PT6 applications, they
> > > > will verify that it is so. I really have been there and done that.
>
> --
> Will Honea

L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III

Yes, I believe all diesels should add a gallon of gasoline with
each tank fill. It's do amazing things towards the cleansing of our
environment.
Thanks Mike, for the attempt to put us back on topic. ;-)
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Mike Romain wrote:
>
> So will just any old kind of 'fuel' work in a Jeep diesel then?
>
> Mike