Willys/Ford Engine Swap? Possible?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Diesel Alternate Fuels-OT (Until Jeeps Dieselized,I.E.Soon)
"Will Honea" <hwj25(remove this)@qwest.net> wrote in message news:<JxX2tWiP5BNp-pn2-p0hbxsmufixm@anon.none.net>...
> Different story entirely - I was just commenting on the jet turbine
> part. That's basically a blow torch - spray fuel out the nozzle and
> light it. If it burns and sustains the flame, you're in business.
> The USAF manuals I still have around for several models all specify
> what will work in an emergency situation and what usable substitutes
> are available. We had to keep a copy of the list because almost no
> civilian field had JP4 and we were always winding up in some podunk
> strip when Gulf coast weather caught us. The goal was to find
> someplace with some sort of jet fuel but a lot of guys wound up at
> some private strip or a crop duster operation - the jet I flew at the
> time required about 4000' of runway and I put one down on a 1500' dirt
> strip, so we could use about anyplace when home plate socked in. Now
> that I think about it, I did come home on 115/145 avgas from that one.
> They poured walnut shells thru the engine to clean it, then pulled
> the turbine to inspect the blades for cracks (avgas burns hotter in
> that case) and deposits. I got to fly the test flights before the
> bird was released for unrestricted flight after that.
>
> I would NOT play those games with a diesel engine - I've spent too
> many hours tearing tractor engines and fuel systems apart to clean out
> what was supposed to be "good" diesel to begin with. Even minor
> contamination will kill a standard diesel - I'm sure Bill can tell all
> sorts of stories about trucks and a dirty fuel load.
>
> There is a world of difference between an otto cycle diesel and a
> turbine engine - they work on entirely different thermal principles -
> so what works for one will not necessarily (or even probably) work for
> the other. I'm mainly pulling Bill's chain since he seemed to group
> diesels and turbines as a fuel class.
>
> On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:57:26 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
> > So will just any old kind of 'fuel' work in a Jeep diesel then?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Will Honea wrote:
> > >
> > > Actually, Mike, he is correct in one respect - a jet turbine will run
> > > on about anything that can be pumped thru the fuel system andl ignite.
Diesel engines have some similar requirements and some different ones
from gas turbines. Diesel Cycle (Otto Cycle means spark ignition,
throttled air and fuel) piston engines require fuel that eassily
ignites when ejaculated into the incandescent combustion chamber
whereas turbines have a continuous flame once lit. This ability to
ignite is called "cetane rating" because it is a measure of the fuel's
ignitability as compared to pure cetane. (Octane rating, in spark
ignition fuels,is the fuel's _resistance_ to spontaneous ignition,and
is the comparison of the fuel to iso-octane).
Because cetane rating and octane rating are nearly
reciprocal,although not in any fixed relationship,it's very difficult
to make a fuel that will run in both spark and compression ignition
engines. SI engines like high octane gasolines, ethanol, methanol, and
gaseous fuels like propane and methane-provided their fuel systems can
meter them in the right amounts. (Yes, a gasoline engine will run on
Bacardi 151-if the fuel-air mixture can be set rich enough.) CI
engines burn combustible oils-sixteen chain hydrocarbons, coal oils,
and certain vegetable oils. Turbines are by their nature pretty
omnivorous-as long as they are a liquid through the fuel controller
(or a gas if you have a gaseous fuel system)they will burn,the T-wheel
turns, the compressor sucks in the air, and things are good. Unless
lead, sulphur, or something else attacks the hot exotic metal parts.
The fuel controllers and injection apparatus for Diesels and turbines
are very different, but they have some similar requirements. They do
not tolerate particles, water, oils incompatible with their seals, or
fuels with no lubricity. Diesel pumps are more particular, in general,
than turbine controllers. The Bosch inline pump used in MBZ,Isuzu,Cat,
Mack, and other engines is particularly needful of clean dry (that
means no water) lubricious fuel. A two cycle Detroit will eat about
anything-until the pistons or liners fail.
It's worth noting here that onroad Diesel fuel is a lot less
lubricious (low sulfur) than it used to be, and adding K-1 could push
it over the edge a lot easier today than in past years. I would always
add oil if you have to add kero or Jet A to thin out gelled #2 in the
winter. Not two stroke oil-which contains octane boosters (cetane
killers)-SAE 30 or 20 nondetergent motor oil. ULSD diesel is going to
be even "drier" and will necessitate, in my opinion, refit or
continuous use of lube additives on (some) vintage diesels.
Bill oIIIIIo is a _car mechanic_. He has never had to think in
engineering terms, which is why people in the genset business won't
hire car mechanics. They can turn wrenches great but they can't think
in engineering terms, and when you get into peak shaving,
cogeneration, or process combustion/compound cycle applications (we
had sets burning sewer gas, palm oil, and a couple of other things we
are under NDA on) they are lost. We had everything from 20 hp Isuzu
and Lister-Petter engines to converted rail power packages-Fairbanks
Morse and EMD railroad engine/generators rescued from junked or
derailed locos rewound for telco 48V DC service. I also had a 240D
Benz that I ran several thousand gallons of legally unusable Jet
A-with my employer's permission and encouragement as long as I agreed
not to say anything if the engine failed-through. I always added Grade
80 Aeroshell nondetergent oil-paid for at the parts couunter-or Power
Service and had zero problems. Your mileage, literally, could be very
different-I am not saying, and Bill knows I never did, "do this."
Boy, am I glad Daimler bought Chrysler. Those guys are _engineers_!
> Different story entirely - I was just commenting on the jet turbine
> part. That's basically a blow torch - spray fuel out the nozzle and
> light it. If it burns and sustains the flame, you're in business.
> The USAF manuals I still have around for several models all specify
> what will work in an emergency situation and what usable substitutes
> are available. We had to keep a copy of the list because almost no
> civilian field had JP4 and we were always winding up in some podunk
> strip when Gulf coast weather caught us. The goal was to find
> someplace with some sort of jet fuel but a lot of guys wound up at
> some private strip or a crop duster operation - the jet I flew at the
> time required about 4000' of runway and I put one down on a 1500' dirt
> strip, so we could use about anyplace when home plate socked in. Now
> that I think about it, I did come home on 115/145 avgas from that one.
> They poured walnut shells thru the engine to clean it, then pulled
> the turbine to inspect the blades for cracks (avgas burns hotter in
> that case) and deposits. I got to fly the test flights before the
> bird was released for unrestricted flight after that.
>
> I would NOT play those games with a diesel engine - I've spent too
> many hours tearing tractor engines and fuel systems apart to clean out
> what was supposed to be "good" diesel to begin with. Even minor
> contamination will kill a standard diesel - I'm sure Bill can tell all
> sorts of stories about trucks and a dirty fuel load.
>
> There is a world of difference between an otto cycle diesel and a
> turbine engine - they work on entirely different thermal principles -
> so what works for one will not necessarily (or even probably) work for
> the other. I'm mainly pulling Bill's chain since he seemed to group
> diesels and turbines as a fuel class.
>
> On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:57:26 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
> > So will just any old kind of 'fuel' work in a Jeep diesel then?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Will Honea wrote:
> > >
> > > Actually, Mike, he is correct in one respect - a jet turbine will run
> > > on about anything that can be pumped thru the fuel system andl ignite.
Diesel engines have some similar requirements and some different ones
from gas turbines. Diesel Cycle (Otto Cycle means spark ignition,
throttled air and fuel) piston engines require fuel that eassily
ignites when ejaculated into the incandescent combustion chamber
whereas turbines have a continuous flame once lit. This ability to
ignite is called "cetane rating" because it is a measure of the fuel's
ignitability as compared to pure cetane. (Octane rating, in spark
ignition fuels,is the fuel's _resistance_ to spontaneous ignition,and
is the comparison of the fuel to iso-octane).
Because cetane rating and octane rating are nearly
reciprocal,although not in any fixed relationship,it's very difficult
to make a fuel that will run in both spark and compression ignition
engines. SI engines like high octane gasolines, ethanol, methanol, and
gaseous fuels like propane and methane-provided their fuel systems can
meter them in the right amounts. (Yes, a gasoline engine will run on
Bacardi 151-if the fuel-air mixture can be set rich enough.) CI
engines burn combustible oils-sixteen chain hydrocarbons, coal oils,
and certain vegetable oils. Turbines are by their nature pretty
omnivorous-as long as they are a liquid through the fuel controller
(or a gas if you have a gaseous fuel system)they will burn,the T-wheel
turns, the compressor sucks in the air, and things are good. Unless
lead, sulphur, or something else attacks the hot exotic metal parts.
The fuel controllers and injection apparatus for Diesels and turbines
are very different, but they have some similar requirements. They do
not tolerate particles, water, oils incompatible with their seals, or
fuels with no lubricity. Diesel pumps are more particular, in general,
than turbine controllers. The Bosch inline pump used in MBZ,Isuzu,Cat,
Mack, and other engines is particularly needful of clean dry (that
means no water) lubricious fuel. A two cycle Detroit will eat about
anything-until the pistons or liners fail.
It's worth noting here that onroad Diesel fuel is a lot less
lubricious (low sulfur) than it used to be, and adding K-1 could push
it over the edge a lot easier today than in past years. I would always
add oil if you have to add kero or Jet A to thin out gelled #2 in the
winter. Not two stroke oil-which contains octane boosters (cetane
killers)-SAE 30 or 20 nondetergent motor oil. ULSD diesel is going to
be even "drier" and will necessitate, in my opinion, refit or
continuous use of lube additives on (some) vintage diesels.
Bill oIIIIIo is a _car mechanic_. He has never had to think in
engineering terms, which is why people in the genset business won't
hire car mechanics. They can turn wrenches great but they can't think
in engineering terms, and when you get into peak shaving,
cogeneration, or process combustion/compound cycle applications (we
had sets burning sewer gas, palm oil, and a couple of other things we
are under NDA on) they are lost. We had everything from 20 hp Isuzu
and Lister-Petter engines to converted rail power packages-Fairbanks
Morse and EMD railroad engine/generators rescued from junked or
derailed locos rewound for telco 48V DC service. I also had a 240D
Benz that I ran several thousand gallons of legally unusable Jet
A-with my employer's permission and encouragement as long as I agreed
not to say anything if the engine failed-through. I always added Grade
80 Aeroshell nondetergent oil-paid for at the parts couunter-or Power
Service and had zero problems. Your mileage, literally, could be very
different-I am not saying, and Bill knows I never did, "do this."
Boy, am I glad Daimler bought Chrysler. Those guys are _engineers_!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Diesel Alternate Fuels-OT (Until Jeeps Dieselized,I.E.Soon)
"Will Honea" <hwj25(remove this)@qwest.net> wrote in message news:<JxX2tWiP5BNp-pn2-p0hbxsmufixm@anon.none.net>...
> Different story entirely - I was just commenting on the jet turbine
> part. That's basically a blow torch - spray fuel out the nozzle and
> light it. If it burns and sustains the flame, you're in business.
> The USAF manuals I still have around for several models all specify
> what will work in an emergency situation and what usable substitutes
> are available. We had to keep a copy of the list because almost no
> civilian field had JP4 and we were always winding up in some podunk
> strip when Gulf coast weather caught us. The goal was to find
> someplace with some sort of jet fuel but a lot of guys wound up at
> some private strip or a crop duster operation - the jet I flew at the
> time required about 4000' of runway and I put one down on a 1500' dirt
> strip, so we could use about anyplace when home plate socked in. Now
> that I think about it, I did come home on 115/145 avgas from that one.
> They poured walnut shells thru the engine to clean it, then pulled
> the turbine to inspect the blades for cracks (avgas burns hotter in
> that case) and deposits. I got to fly the test flights before the
> bird was released for unrestricted flight after that.
>
> I would NOT play those games with a diesel engine - I've spent too
> many hours tearing tractor engines and fuel systems apart to clean out
> what was supposed to be "good" diesel to begin with. Even minor
> contamination will kill a standard diesel - I'm sure Bill can tell all
> sorts of stories about trucks and a dirty fuel load.
>
> There is a world of difference between an otto cycle diesel and a
> turbine engine - they work on entirely different thermal principles -
> so what works for one will not necessarily (or even probably) work for
> the other. I'm mainly pulling Bill's chain since he seemed to group
> diesels and turbines as a fuel class.
>
> On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:57:26 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
> > So will just any old kind of 'fuel' work in a Jeep diesel then?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Will Honea wrote:
> > >
> > > Actually, Mike, he is correct in one respect - a jet turbine will run
> > > on about anything that can be pumped thru the fuel system andl ignite.
Diesel engines have some similar requirements and some different ones
from gas turbines. Diesel Cycle (Otto Cycle means spark ignition,
throttled air and fuel) piston engines require fuel that eassily
ignites when ejaculated into the incandescent combustion chamber
whereas turbines have a continuous flame once lit. This ability to
ignite is called "cetane rating" because it is a measure of the fuel's
ignitability as compared to pure cetane. (Octane rating, in spark
ignition fuels,is the fuel's _resistance_ to spontaneous ignition,and
is the comparison of the fuel to iso-octane).
Because cetane rating and octane rating are nearly
reciprocal,although not in any fixed relationship,it's very difficult
to make a fuel that will run in both spark and compression ignition
engines. SI engines like high octane gasolines, ethanol, methanol, and
gaseous fuels like propane and methane-provided their fuel systems can
meter them in the right amounts. (Yes, a gasoline engine will run on
Bacardi 151-if the fuel-air mixture can be set rich enough.) CI
engines burn combustible oils-sixteen chain hydrocarbons, coal oils,
and certain vegetable oils. Turbines are by their nature pretty
omnivorous-as long as they are a liquid through the fuel controller
(or a gas if you have a gaseous fuel system)they will burn,the T-wheel
turns, the compressor sucks in the air, and things are good. Unless
lead, sulphur, or something else attacks the hot exotic metal parts.
The fuel controllers and injection apparatus for Diesels and turbines
are very different, but they have some similar requirements. They do
not tolerate particles, water, oils incompatible with their seals, or
fuels with no lubricity. Diesel pumps are more particular, in general,
than turbine controllers. The Bosch inline pump used in MBZ,Isuzu,Cat,
Mack, and other engines is particularly needful of clean dry (that
means no water) lubricious fuel. A two cycle Detroit will eat about
anything-until the pistons or liners fail.
It's worth noting here that onroad Diesel fuel is a lot less
lubricious (low sulfur) than it used to be, and adding K-1 could push
it over the edge a lot easier today than in past years. I would always
add oil if you have to add kero or Jet A to thin out gelled #2 in the
winter. Not two stroke oil-which contains octane boosters (cetane
killers)-SAE 30 or 20 nondetergent motor oil. ULSD diesel is going to
be even "drier" and will necessitate, in my opinion, refit or
continuous use of lube additives on (some) vintage diesels.
Bill oIIIIIo is a _car mechanic_. He has never had to think in
engineering terms, which is why people in the genset business won't
hire car mechanics. They can turn wrenches great but they can't think
in engineering terms, and when you get into peak shaving,
cogeneration, or process combustion/compound cycle applications (we
had sets burning sewer gas, palm oil, and a couple of other things we
are under NDA on) they are lost. We had everything from 20 hp Isuzu
and Lister-Petter engines to converted rail power packages-Fairbanks
Morse and EMD railroad engine/generators rescued from junked or
derailed locos rewound for telco 48V DC service. I also had a 240D
Benz that I ran several thousand gallons of legally unusable Jet
A-with my employer's permission and encouragement as long as I agreed
not to say anything if the engine failed-through. I always added Grade
80 Aeroshell nondetergent oil-paid for at the parts couunter-or Power
Service and had zero problems. Your mileage, literally, could be very
different-I am not saying, and Bill knows I never did, "do this."
Boy, am I glad Daimler bought Chrysler. Those guys are _engineers_!
> Different story entirely - I was just commenting on the jet turbine
> part. That's basically a blow torch - spray fuel out the nozzle and
> light it. If it burns and sustains the flame, you're in business.
> The USAF manuals I still have around for several models all specify
> what will work in an emergency situation and what usable substitutes
> are available. We had to keep a copy of the list because almost no
> civilian field had JP4 and we were always winding up in some podunk
> strip when Gulf coast weather caught us. The goal was to find
> someplace with some sort of jet fuel but a lot of guys wound up at
> some private strip or a crop duster operation - the jet I flew at the
> time required about 4000' of runway and I put one down on a 1500' dirt
> strip, so we could use about anyplace when home plate socked in. Now
> that I think about it, I did come home on 115/145 avgas from that one.
> They poured walnut shells thru the engine to clean it, then pulled
> the turbine to inspect the blades for cracks (avgas burns hotter in
> that case) and deposits. I got to fly the test flights before the
> bird was released for unrestricted flight after that.
>
> I would NOT play those games with a diesel engine - I've spent too
> many hours tearing tractor engines and fuel systems apart to clean out
> what was supposed to be "good" diesel to begin with. Even minor
> contamination will kill a standard diesel - I'm sure Bill can tell all
> sorts of stories about trucks and a dirty fuel load.
>
> There is a world of difference between an otto cycle diesel and a
> turbine engine - they work on entirely different thermal principles -
> so what works for one will not necessarily (or even probably) work for
> the other. I'm mainly pulling Bill's chain since he seemed to group
> diesels and turbines as a fuel class.
>
> On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:57:26 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
> > So will just any old kind of 'fuel' work in a Jeep diesel then?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Will Honea wrote:
> > >
> > > Actually, Mike, he is correct in one respect - a jet turbine will run
> > > on about anything that can be pumped thru the fuel system andl ignite.
Diesel engines have some similar requirements and some different ones
from gas turbines. Diesel Cycle (Otto Cycle means spark ignition,
throttled air and fuel) piston engines require fuel that eassily
ignites when ejaculated into the incandescent combustion chamber
whereas turbines have a continuous flame once lit. This ability to
ignite is called "cetane rating" because it is a measure of the fuel's
ignitability as compared to pure cetane. (Octane rating, in spark
ignition fuels,is the fuel's _resistance_ to spontaneous ignition,and
is the comparison of the fuel to iso-octane).
Because cetane rating and octane rating are nearly
reciprocal,although not in any fixed relationship,it's very difficult
to make a fuel that will run in both spark and compression ignition
engines. SI engines like high octane gasolines, ethanol, methanol, and
gaseous fuels like propane and methane-provided their fuel systems can
meter them in the right amounts. (Yes, a gasoline engine will run on
Bacardi 151-if the fuel-air mixture can be set rich enough.) CI
engines burn combustible oils-sixteen chain hydrocarbons, coal oils,
and certain vegetable oils. Turbines are by their nature pretty
omnivorous-as long as they are a liquid through the fuel controller
(or a gas if you have a gaseous fuel system)they will burn,the T-wheel
turns, the compressor sucks in the air, and things are good. Unless
lead, sulphur, or something else attacks the hot exotic metal parts.
The fuel controllers and injection apparatus for Diesels and turbines
are very different, but they have some similar requirements. They do
not tolerate particles, water, oils incompatible with their seals, or
fuels with no lubricity. Diesel pumps are more particular, in general,
than turbine controllers. The Bosch inline pump used in MBZ,Isuzu,Cat,
Mack, and other engines is particularly needful of clean dry (that
means no water) lubricious fuel. A two cycle Detroit will eat about
anything-until the pistons or liners fail.
It's worth noting here that onroad Diesel fuel is a lot less
lubricious (low sulfur) than it used to be, and adding K-1 could push
it over the edge a lot easier today than in past years. I would always
add oil if you have to add kero or Jet A to thin out gelled #2 in the
winter. Not two stroke oil-which contains octane boosters (cetane
killers)-SAE 30 or 20 nondetergent motor oil. ULSD diesel is going to
be even "drier" and will necessitate, in my opinion, refit or
continuous use of lube additives on (some) vintage diesels.
Bill oIIIIIo is a _car mechanic_. He has never had to think in
engineering terms, which is why people in the genset business won't
hire car mechanics. They can turn wrenches great but they can't think
in engineering terms, and when you get into peak shaving,
cogeneration, or process combustion/compound cycle applications (we
had sets burning sewer gas, palm oil, and a couple of other things we
are under NDA on) they are lost. We had everything from 20 hp Isuzu
and Lister-Petter engines to converted rail power packages-Fairbanks
Morse and EMD railroad engine/generators rescued from junked or
derailed locos rewound for telco 48V DC service. I also had a 240D
Benz that I ran several thousand gallons of legally unusable Jet
A-with my employer's permission and encouragement as long as I agreed
not to say anything if the engine failed-through. I always added Grade
80 Aeroshell nondetergent oil-paid for at the parts couunter-or Power
Service and had zero problems. Your mileage, literally, could be very
different-I am not saying, and Bill knows I never did, "do this."
Boy, am I glad Daimler bought Chrysler. Those guys are _engineers_!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Diesel Alternate Fuels-OT (Until Jeeps Dieselized,I.E.Soon)
"Will Honea" <hwj25(remove this)@qwest.net> wrote in message news:<JxX2tWiP5BNp-pn2-p0hbxsmufixm@anon.none.net>...
> Different story entirely - I was just commenting on the jet turbine
> part. That's basically a blow torch - spray fuel out the nozzle and
> light it. If it burns and sustains the flame, you're in business.
> The USAF manuals I still have around for several models all specify
> what will work in an emergency situation and what usable substitutes
> are available. We had to keep a copy of the list because almost no
> civilian field had JP4 and we were always winding up in some podunk
> strip when Gulf coast weather caught us. The goal was to find
> someplace with some sort of jet fuel but a lot of guys wound up at
> some private strip or a crop duster operation - the jet I flew at the
> time required about 4000' of runway and I put one down on a 1500' dirt
> strip, so we could use about anyplace when home plate socked in. Now
> that I think about it, I did come home on 115/145 avgas from that one.
> They poured walnut shells thru the engine to clean it, then pulled
> the turbine to inspect the blades for cracks (avgas burns hotter in
> that case) and deposits. I got to fly the test flights before the
> bird was released for unrestricted flight after that.
>
> I would NOT play those games with a diesel engine - I've spent too
> many hours tearing tractor engines and fuel systems apart to clean out
> what was supposed to be "good" diesel to begin with. Even minor
> contamination will kill a standard diesel - I'm sure Bill can tell all
> sorts of stories about trucks and a dirty fuel load.
>
> There is a world of difference between an otto cycle diesel and a
> turbine engine - they work on entirely different thermal principles -
> so what works for one will not necessarily (or even probably) work for
> the other. I'm mainly pulling Bill's chain since he seemed to group
> diesels and turbines as a fuel class.
>
> On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:57:26 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
> > So will just any old kind of 'fuel' work in a Jeep diesel then?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Will Honea wrote:
> > >
> > > Actually, Mike, he is correct in one respect - a jet turbine will run
> > > on about anything that can be pumped thru the fuel system andl ignite.
Diesel engines have some similar requirements and some different ones
from gas turbines. Diesel Cycle (Otto Cycle means spark ignition,
throttled air and fuel) piston engines require fuel that eassily
ignites when ejaculated into the incandescent combustion chamber
whereas turbines have a continuous flame once lit. This ability to
ignite is called "cetane rating" because it is a measure of the fuel's
ignitability as compared to pure cetane. (Octane rating, in spark
ignition fuels,is the fuel's _resistance_ to spontaneous ignition,and
is the comparison of the fuel to iso-octane).
Because cetane rating and octane rating are nearly
reciprocal,although not in any fixed relationship,it's very difficult
to make a fuel that will run in both spark and compression ignition
engines. SI engines like high octane gasolines, ethanol, methanol, and
gaseous fuels like propane and methane-provided their fuel systems can
meter them in the right amounts. (Yes, a gasoline engine will run on
Bacardi 151-if the fuel-air mixture can be set rich enough.) CI
engines burn combustible oils-sixteen chain hydrocarbons, coal oils,
and certain vegetable oils. Turbines are by their nature pretty
omnivorous-as long as they are a liquid through the fuel controller
(or a gas if you have a gaseous fuel system)they will burn,the T-wheel
turns, the compressor sucks in the air, and things are good. Unless
lead, sulphur, or something else attacks the hot exotic metal parts.
The fuel controllers and injection apparatus for Diesels and turbines
are very different, but they have some similar requirements. They do
not tolerate particles, water, oils incompatible with their seals, or
fuels with no lubricity. Diesel pumps are more particular, in general,
than turbine controllers. The Bosch inline pump used in MBZ,Isuzu,Cat,
Mack, and other engines is particularly needful of clean dry (that
means no water) lubricious fuel. A two cycle Detroit will eat about
anything-until the pistons or liners fail.
It's worth noting here that onroad Diesel fuel is a lot less
lubricious (low sulfur) than it used to be, and adding K-1 could push
it over the edge a lot easier today than in past years. I would always
add oil if you have to add kero or Jet A to thin out gelled #2 in the
winter. Not two stroke oil-which contains octane boosters (cetane
killers)-SAE 30 or 20 nondetergent motor oil. ULSD diesel is going to
be even "drier" and will necessitate, in my opinion, refit or
continuous use of lube additives on (some) vintage diesels.
Bill oIIIIIo is a _car mechanic_. He has never had to think in
engineering terms, which is why people in the genset business won't
hire car mechanics. They can turn wrenches great but they can't think
in engineering terms, and when you get into peak shaving,
cogeneration, or process combustion/compound cycle applications (we
had sets burning sewer gas, palm oil, and a couple of other things we
are under NDA on) they are lost. We had everything from 20 hp Isuzu
and Lister-Petter engines to converted rail power packages-Fairbanks
Morse and EMD railroad engine/generators rescued from junked or
derailed locos rewound for telco 48V DC service. I also had a 240D
Benz that I ran several thousand gallons of legally unusable Jet
A-with my employer's permission and encouragement as long as I agreed
not to say anything if the engine failed-through. I always added Grade
80 Aeroshell nondetergent oil-paid for at the parts couunter-or Power
Service and had zero problems. Your mileage, literally, could be very
different-I am not saying, and Bill knows I never did, "do this."
Boy, am I glad Daimler bought Chrysler. Those guys are _engineers_!
> Different story entirely - I was just commenting on the jet turbine
> part. That's basically a blow torch - spray fuel out the nozzle and
> light it. If it burns and sustains the flame, you're in business.
> The USAF manuals I still have around for several models all specify
> what will work in an emergency situation and what usable substitutes
> are available. We had to keep a copy of the list because almost no
> civilian field had JP4 and we were always winding up in some podunk
> strip when Gulf coast weather caught us. The goal was to find
> someplace with some sort of jet fuel but a lot of guys wound up at
> some private strip or a crop duster operation - the jet I flew at the
> time required about 4000' of runway and I put one down on a 1500' dirt
> strip, so we could use about anyplace when home plate socked in. Now
> that I think about it, I did come home on 115/145 avgas from that one.
> They poured walnut shells thru the engine to clean it, then pulled
> the turbine to inspect the blades for cracks (avgas burns hotter in
> that case) and deposits. I got to fly the test flights before the
> bird was released for unrestricted flight after that.
>
> I would NOT play those games with a diesel engine - I've spent too
> many hours tearing tractor engines and fuel systems apart to clean out
> what was supposed to be "good" diesel to begin with. Even minor
> contamination will kill a standard diesel - I'm sure Bill can tell all
> sorts of stories about trucks and a dirty fuel load.
>
> There is a world of difference between an otto cycle diesel and a
> turbine engine - they work on entirely different thermal principles -
> so what works for one will not necessarily (or even probably) work for
> the other. I'm mainly pulling Bill's chain since he seemed to group
> diesels and turbines as a fuel class.
>
> On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:57:26 UTC Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
> > So will just any old kind of 'fuel' work in a Jeep diesel then?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Will Honea wrote:
> > >
> > > Actually, Mike, he is correct in one respect - a jet turbine will run
> > > on about anything that can be pumped thru the fuel system andl ignite.
Diesel engines have some similar requirements and some different ones
from gas turbines. Diesel Cycle (Otto Cycle means spark ignition,
throttled air and fuel) piston engines require fuel that eassily
ignites when ejaculated into the incandescent combustion chamber
whereas turbines have a continuous flame once lit. This ability to
ignite is called "cetane rating" because it is a measure of the fuel's
ignitability as compared to pure cetane. (Octane rating, in spark
ignition fuels,is the fuel's _resistance_ to spontaneous ignition,and
is the comparison of the fuel to iso-octane).
Because cetane rating and octane rating are nearly
reciprocal,although not in any fixed relationship,it's very difficult
to make a fuel that will run in both spark and compression ignition
engines. SI engines like high octane gasolines, ethanol, methanol, and
gaseous fuels like propane and methane-provided their fuel systems can
meter them in the right amounts. (Yes, a gasoline engine will run on
Bacardi 151-if the fuel-air mixture can be set rich enough.) CI
engines burn combustible oils-sixteen chain hydrocarbons, coal oils,
and certain vegetable oils. Turbines are by their nature pretty
omnivorous-as long as they are a liquid through the fuel controller
(or a gas if you have a gaseous fuel system)they will burn,the T-wheel
turns, the compressor sucks in the air, and things are good. Unless
lead, sulphur, or something else attacks the hot exotic metal parts.
The fuel controllers and injection apparatus for Diesels and turbines
are very different, but they have some similar requirements. They do
not tolerate particles, water, oils incompatible with their seals, or
fuels with no lubricity. Diesel pumps are more particular, in general,
than turbine controllers. The Bosch inline pump used in MBZ,Isuzu,Cat,
Mack, and other engines is particularly needful of clean dry (that
means no water) lubricious fuel. A two cycle Detroit will eat about
anything-until the pistons or liners fail.
It's worth noting here that onroad Diesel fuel is a lot less
lubricious (low sulfur) than it used to be, and adding K-1 could push
it over the edge a lot easier today than in past years. I would always
add oil if you have to add kero or Jet A to thin out gelled #2 in the
winter. Not two stroke oil-which contains octane boosters (cetane
killers)-SAE 30 or 20 nondetergent motor oil. ULSD diesel is going to
be even "drier" and will necessitate, in my opinion, refit or
continuous use of lube additives on (some) vintage diesels.
Bill oIIIIIo is a _car mechanic_. He has never had to think in
engineering terms, which is why people in the genset business won't
hire car mechanics. They can turn wrenches great but they can't think
in engineering terms, and when you get into peak shaving,
cogeneration, or process combustion/compound cycle applications (we
had sets burning sewer gas, palm oil, and a couple of other things we
are under NDA on) they are lost. We had everything from 20 hp Isuzu
and Lister-Petter engines to converted rail power packages-Fairbanks
Morse and EMD railroad engine/generators rescued from junked or
derailed locos rewound for telco 48V DC service. I also had a 240D
Benz that I ran several thousand gallons of legally unusable Jet
A-with my employer's permission and encouragement as long as I agreed
not to say anything if the engine failed-through. I always added Grade
80 Aeroshell nondetergent oil-paid for at the parts couunter-or Power
Service and had zero problems. Your mileage, literally, could be very
different-I am not saying, and Bill knows I never did, "do this."
Boy, am I glad Daimler bought Chrysler. Those guys are _engineers_!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: ******/Ford Engine Swap? Possible?
My parents were pilots: http://www.----------.com/pilotbeth.jpg and
http://www.----------.com/grandpa.jpg I chose to build and race quarter
mile cars: http://www.----------.com/dragster.jpg In my Jack of all
trades as an owner operator long haul trucker, I did many in-frames and
used bigger buttons as I drove over a million miles in these:
http://www.----------.com/rextrans.jpg
http://www.----------.com/kenworth.jpg
http://www.----------.com/white.jpg http://www.----------.com/mack.jpg I
know enough about diesel to tell everyone that'll listen that you're
full of sh*t! Plus, so far you haven't been able to find another idiot
on this World Wide Wed, that will back your crap!
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/rextrans.jpg
Ted Azito wrote:
>
> You have absolutely no turbine or aircraft experience of any kind and
> very little with diesels. You just have a hard-on for diesels.
> Gasoline engines are toys and diesels are the real thing as far as I
> am concerned.
>
> Every time you buy "Winterized #2" diesel, they already added
> kerosene.
>
> I don't have a Web site, and there's no way I'm putting my A&P number
> on the Web, even though I haven't signed a logbook since 1988. It's
> the same as my SSN and I'd get it changed, but since I don't practice,
> why bother?
http://www.----------.com/grandpa.jpg I chose to build and race quarter
mile cars: http://www.----------.com/dragster.jpg In my Jack of all
trades as an owner operator long haul trucker, I did many in-frames and
used bigger buttons as I drove over a million miles in these:
http://www.----------.com/rextrans.jpg
http://www.----------.com/kenworth.jpg
http://www.----------.com/white.jpg http://www.----------.com/mack.jpg I
know enough about diesel to tell everyone that'll listen that you're
full of sh*t! Plus, so far you haven't been able to find another idiot
on this World Wide Wed, that will back your crap!
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/rextrans.jpg
Ted Azito wrote:
>
> You have absolutely no turbine or aircraft experience of any kind and
> very little with diesels. You just have a hard-on for diesels.
> Gasoline engines are toys and diesels are the real thing as far as I
> am concerned.
>
> Every time you buy "Winterized #2" diesel, they already added
> kerosene.
>
> I don't have a Web site, and there's no way I'm putting my A&P number
> on the Web, even though I haven't signed a logbook since 1988. It's
> the same as my SSN and I'd get it changed, but since I don't practice,
> why bother?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: ******/Ford Engine Swap? Possible?
My parents were pilots: http://www.----------.com/pilotbeth.jpg and
http://www.----------.com/grandpa.jpg I chose to build and race quarter
mile cars: http://www.----------.com/dragster.jpg In my Jack of all
trades as an owner operator long haul trucker, I did many in-frames and
used bigger buttons as I drove over a million miles in these:
http://www.----------.com/rextrans.jpg
http://www.----------.com/kenworth.jpg
http://www.----------.com/white.jpg http://www.----------.com/mack.jpg I
know enough about diesel to tell everyone that'll listen that you're
full of sh*t! Plus, so far you haven't been able to find another idiot
on this World Wide Wed, that will back your crap!
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/rextrans.jpg
Ted Azito wrote:
>
> You have absolutely no turbine or aircraft experience of any kind and
> very little with diesels. You just have a hard-on for diesels.
> Gasoline engines are toys and diesels are the real thing as far as I
> am concerned.
>
> Every time you buy "Winterized #2" diesel, they already added
> kerosene.
>
> I don't have a Web site, and there's no way I'm putting my A&P number
> on the Web, even though I haven't signed a logbook since 1988. It's
> the same as my SSN and I'd get it changed, but since I don't practice,
> why bother?
http://www.----------.com/grandpa.jpg I chose to build and race quarter
mile cars: http://www.----------.com/dragster.jpg In my Jack of all
trades as an owner operator long haul trucker, I did many in-frames and
used bigger buttons as I drove over a million miles in these:
http://www.----------.com/rextrans.jpg
http://www.----------.com/kenworth.jpg
http://www.----------.com/white.jpg http://www.----------.com/mack.jpg I
know enough about diesel to tell everyone that'll listen that you're
full of sh*t! Plus, so far you haven't been able to find another idiot
on this World Wide Wed, that will back your crap!
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/rextrans.jpg
Ted Azito wrote:
>
> You have absolutely no turbine or aircraft experience of any kind and
> very little with diesels. You just have a hard-on for diesels.
> Gasoline engines are toys and diesels are the real thing as far as I
> am concerned.
>
> Every time you buy "Winterized #2" diesel, they already added
> kerosene.
>
> I don't have a Web site, and there's no way I'm putting my A&P number
> on the Web, even though I haven't signed a logbook since 1988. It's
> the same as my SSN and I'd get it changed, but since I don't practice,
> why bother?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: ******/Ford Engine Swap? Possible?
My parents were pilots: http://www.----------.com/pilotbeth.jpg and
http://www.----------.com/grandpa.jpg I chose to build and race quarter
mile cars: http://www.----------.com/dragster.jpg In my Jack of all
trades as an owner operator long haul trucker, I did many in-frames and
used bigger buttons as I drove over a million miles in these:
http://www.----------.com/rextrans.jpg
http://www.----------.com/kenworth.jpg
http://www.----------.com/white.jpg http://www.----------.com/mack.jpg I
know enough about diesel to tell everyone that'll listen that you're
full of sh*t! Plus, so far you haven't been able to find another idiot
on this World Wide Wed, that will back your crap!
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/rextrans.jpg
Ted Azito wrote:
>
> You have absolutely no turbine or aircraft experience of any kind and
> very little with diesels. You just have a hard-on for diesels.
> Gasoline engines are toys and diesels are the real thing as far as I
> am concerned.
>
> Every time you buy "Winterized #2" diesel, they already added
> kerosene.
>
> I don't have a Web site, and there's no way I'm putting my A&P number
> on the Web, even though I haven't signed a logbook since 1988. It's
> the same as my SSN and I'd get it changed, but since I don't practice,
> why bother?
http://www.----------.com/grandpa.jpg I chose to build and race quarter
mile cars: http://www.----------.com/dragster.jpg In my Jack of all
trades as an owner operator long haul trucker, I did many in-frames and
used bigger buttons as I drove over a million miles in these:
http://www.----------.com/rextrans.jpg
http://www.----------.com/kenworth.jpg
http://www.----------.com/white.jpg http://www.----------.com/mack.jpg I
know enough about diesel to tell everyone that'll listen that you're
full of sh*t! Plus, so far you haven't been able to find another idiot
on this World Wide Wed, that will back your crap!
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/rextrans.jpg
Ted Azito wrote:
>
> You have absolutely no turbine or aircraft experience of any kind and
> very little with diesels. You just have a hard-on for diesels.
> Gasoline engines are toys and diesels are the real thing as far as I
> am concerned.
>
> Every time you buy "Winterized #2" diesel, they already added
> kerosene.
>
> I don't have a Web site, and there's no way I'm putting my A&P number
> on the Web, even though I haven't signed a logbook since 1988. It's
> the same as my SSN and I'd get it changed, but since I don't practice,
> why bother?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: ******/Ford Engine Swap? Possible?
My parents were pilots: http://www.----------.com/pilotbeth.jpg and
http://www.----------.com/grandpa.jpg I chose to build and race quarter
mile cars: http://www.----------.com/dragster.jpg In my Jack of all
trades as an owner operator long haul trucker, I did many in-frames and
used bigger buttons as I drove over a million miles in these:
http://www.----------.com/rextrans.jpg
http://www.----------.com/kenworth.jpg
http://www.----------.com/white.jpg http://www.----------.com/mack.jpg I
know enough about diesel to tell everyone that'll listen that you're
full of sh*t! Plus, so far you haven't been able to find another idiot
on this World Wide Wed, that will back your crap!
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/rextrans.jpg
Ted Azito wrote:
>
> You have absolutely no turbine or aircraft experience of any kind and
> very little with diesels. You just have a hard-on for diesels.
> Gasoline engines are toys and diesels are the real thing as far as I
> am concerned.
>
> Every time you buy "Winterized #2" diesel, they already added
> kerosene.
>
> I don't have a Web site, and there's no way I'm putting my A&P number
> on the Web, even though I haven't signed a logbook since 1988. It's
> the same as my SSN and I'd get it changed, but since I don't practice,
> why bother?
http://www.----------.com/grandpa.jpg I chose to build and race quarter
mile cars: http://www.----------.com/dragster.jpg In my Jack of all
trades as an owner operator long haul trucker, I did many in-frames and
used bigger buttons as I drove over a million miles in these:
http://www.----------.com/rextrans.jpg
http://www.----------.com/kenworth.jpg
http://www.----------.com/white.jpg http://www.----------.com/mack.jpg I
know enough about diesel to tell everyone that'll listen that you're
full of sh*t! Plus, so far you haven't been able to find another idiot
on this World Wide Wed, that will back your crap!
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/rextrans.jpg
Ted Azito wrote:
>
> You have absolutely no turbine or aircraft experience of any kind and
> very little with diesels. You just have a hard-on for diesels.
> Gasoline engines are toys and diesels are the real thing as far as I
> am concerned.
>
> Every time you buy "Winterized #2" diesel, they already added
> kerosene.
>
> I don't have a Web site, and there's no way I'm putting my A&P number
> on the Web, even though I haven't signed a logbook since 1988. It's
> the same as my SSN and I'd get it changed, but since I don't practice,
> why bother?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Diesel Alternate Fuels-OT (Until Jeeps Dieselized,I.E.Soon)
Diesel and spark ignition, in the same sentence? Absolute
gibberish!
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Ted Azito wrote:
>
> Diesel engines have some similar requirements and some different ones
> from gas turbines. Diesel Cycle (Otto Cycle means spark ignition,
> throttled air and fuel) piston engines require fuel that eassily
> ignites when ejaculated into the incandescent combustion chamber
> whereas turbines have a continuous flame once lit. This ability to
> ignite is called "cetane rating" because it is a measure of the fuel's
> ignitability as compared to pure cetane. (Octane rating, in spark
> ignition fuels,is the fuel's _resistance_ to spontaneous ignition,and
> is the comparison of the fuel to iso-octane).
>
> Because cetane rating and octane rating are nearly
> reciprocal,although not in any fixed relationship,it's very difficult
> to make a fuel that will run in both spark and compression ignition
> engines. SI engines like high octane gasolines, ethanol, methanol, and
> gaseous fuels like propane and methane-provided their fuel systems can
> meter them in the right amounts. (Yes, a gasoline engine will run on
> Bacardi 151-if the fuel-air mixture can be set rich enough.) CI
> engines burn combustible oils-sixteen chain hydrocarbons, coal oils,
> and certain vegetable oils. Turbines are by their nature pretty
> omnivorous-as long as they are a liquid through the fuel controller
> (or a gas if you have a gaseous fuel system)they will burn,the T-wheel
> turns, the compressor sucks in the air, and things are good. Unless
> lead, sulphur, or something else attacks the hot exotic metal parts.
>
> The fuel controllers and injection apparatus for Diesels and turbines
> are very different, but they have some similar requirements. They do
> not tolerate particles, water, oils incompatible with their seals, or
> fuels with no lubricity. Diesel pumps are more particular, in general,
> than turbine controllers. The Bosch inline pump used in MBZ,Isuzu,Cat,
> Mack, and other engines is particularly needful of clean dry (that
> means no water) lubricious fuel. A two cycle Detroit will eat about
> anything-until the pistons or liners fail.
>
> It's worth noting here that onroad Diesel fuel is a lot less
> lubricious (low sulfur) than it used to be, and adding K-1 could push
> it over the edge a lot easier today than in past years. I would always
> add oil if you have to add kero or Jet A to thin out gelled #2 in the
> winter. Not two stroke oil-which contains octane boosters (cetane
> killers)-SAE 30 or 20 nondetergent motor oil. ULSD diesel is going to
> be even "drier" and will necessitate, in my opinion, refit or
> continuous use of lube additives on (some) vintage diesels.
>
> Bill oIIIIIo is a _car mechanic_. He has never had to think in
> engineering terms, which is why people in the genset business won't
> hire car mechanics. They can turn wrenches great but they can't think
> in engineering terms, and when you get into peak shaving,
> cogeneration, or process combustion/compound cycle applications (we
> had sets burning sewer gas, palm oil, and a couple of other things we
> are under NDA on) they are lost. We had everything from 20 hp Isuzu
> and Lister-Petter engines to converted rail power packages-Fairbanks
> Morse and EMD railroad engine/generators rescued from junked or
> derailed locos rewound for telco 48V DC service. I also had a 240D
> Benz that I ran several thousand gallons of legally unusable Jet
> A-with my employer's permission and encouragement as long as I agreed
> not to say anything if the engine failed-through. I always added Grade
> 80 Aeroshell nondetergent oil-paid for at the parts couunter-or Power
> Service and had zero problems. Your mileage, literally, could be very
> different-I am not saying, and Bill knows I never did, "do this."
>
> Boy, am I glad Daimler bought Chrysler. Those guys are _engineers_!
gibberish!
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Ted Azito wrote:
>
> Diesel engines have some similar requirements and some different ones
> from gas turbines. Diesel Cycle (Otto Cycle means spark ignition,
> throttled air and fuel) piston engines require fuel that eassily
> ignites when ejaculated into the incandescent combustion chamber
> whereas turbines have a continuous flame once lit. This ability to
> ignite is called "cetane rating" because it is a measure of the fuel's
> ignitability as compared to pure cetane. (Octane rating, in spark
> ignition fuels,is the fuel's _resistance_ to spontaneous ignition,and
> is the comparison of the fuel to iso-octane).
>
> Because cetane rating and octane rating are nearly
> reciprocal,although not in any fixed relationship,it's very difficult
> to make a fuel that will run in both spark and compression ignition
> engines. SI engines like high octane gasolines, ethanol, methanol, and
> gaseous fuels like propane and methane-provided their fuel systems can
> meter them in the right amounts. (Yes, a gasoline engine will run on
> Bacardi 151-if the fuel-air mixture can be set rich enough.) CI
> engines burn combustible oils-sixteen chain hydrocarbons, coal oils,
> and certain vegetable oils. Turbines are by their nature pretty
> omnivorous-as long as they are a liquid through the fuel controller
> (or a gas if you have a gaseous fuel system)they will burn,the T-wheel
> turns, the compressor sucks in the air, and things are good. Unless
> lead, sulphur, or something else attacks the hot exotic metal parts.
>
> The fuel controllers and injection apparatus for Diesels and turbines
> are very different, but they have some similar requirements. They do
> not tolerate particles, water, oils incompatible with their seals, or
> fuels with no lubricity. Diesel pumps are more particular, in general,
> than turbine controllers. The Bosch inline pump used in MBZ,Isuzu,Cat,
> Mack, and other engines is particularly needful of clean dry (that
> means no water) lubricious fuel. A two cycle Detroit will eat about
> anything-until the pistons or liners fail.
>
> It's worth noting here that onroad Diesel fuel is a lot less
> lubricious (low sulfur) than it used to be, and adding K-1 could push
> it over the edge a lot easier today than in past years. I would always
> add oil if you have to add kero or Jet A to thin out gelled #2 in the
> winter. Not two stroke oil-which contains octane boosters (cetane
> killers)-SAE 30 or 20 nondetergent motor oil. ULSD diesel is going to
> be even "drier" and will necessitate, in my opinion, refit or
> continuous use of lube additives on (some) vintage diesels.
>
> Bill oIIIIIo is a _car mechanic_. He has never had to think in
> engineering terms, which is why people in the genset business won't
> hire car mechanics. They can turn wrenches great but they can't think
> in engineering terms, and when you get into peak shaving,
> cogeneration, or process combustion/compound cycle applications (we
> had sets burning sewer gas, palm oil, and a couple of other things we
> are under NDA on) they are lost. We had everything from 20 hp Isuzu
> and Lister-Petter engines to converted rail power packages-Fairbanks
> Morse and EMD railroad engine/generators rescued from junked or
> derailed locos rewound for telco 48V DC service. I also had a 240D
> Benz that I ran several thousand gallons of legally unusable Jet
> A-with my employer's permission and encouragement as long as I agreed
> not to say anything if the engine failed-through. I always added Grade
> 80 Aeroshell nondetergent oil-paid for at the parts couunter-or Power
> Service and had zero problems. Your mileage, literally, could be very
> different-I am not saying, and Bill knows I never did, "do this."
>
> Boy, am I glad Daimler bought Chrysler. Those guys are _engineers_!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Diesel Alternate Fuels-OT (Until Jeeps Dieselized,I.E.Soon)
Diesel and spark ignition, in the same sentence? Absolute
gibberish!
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Ted Azito wrote:
>
> Diesel engines have some similar requirements and some different ones
> from gas turbines. Diesel Cycle (Otto Cycle means spark ignition,
> throttled air and fuel) piston engines require fuel that eassily
> ignites when ejaculated into the incandescent combustion chamber
> whereas turbines have a continuous flame once lit. This ability to
> ignite is called "cetane rating" because it is a measure of the fuel's
> ignitability as compared to pure cetane. (Octane rating, in spark
> ignition fuels,is the fuel's _resistance_ to spontaneous ignition,and
> is the comparison of the fuel to iso-octane).
>
> Because cetane rating and octane rating are nearly
> reciprocal,although not in any fixed relationship,it's very difficult
> to make a fuel that will run in both spark and compression ignition
> engines. SI engines like high octane gasolines, ethanol, methanol, and
> gaseous fuels like propane and methane-provided their fuel systems can
> meter them in the right amounts. (Yes, a gasoline engine will run on
> Bacardi 151-if the fuel-air mixture can be set rich enough.) CI
> engines burn combustible oils-sixteen chain hydrocarbons, coal oils,
> and certain vegetable oils. Turbines are by their nature pretty
> omnivorous-as long as they are a liquid through the fuel controller
> (or a gas if you have a gaseous fuel system)they will burn,the T-wheel
> turns, the compressor sucks in the air, and things are good. Unless
> lead, sulphur, or something else attacks the hot exotic metal parts.
>
> The fuel controllers and injection apparatus for Diesels and turbines
> are very different, but they have some similar requirements. They do
> not tolerate particles, water, oils incompatible with their seals, or
> fuels with no lubricity. Diesel pumps are more particular, in general,
> than turbine controllers. The Bosch inline pump used in MBZ,Isuzu,Cat,
> Mack, and other engines is particularly needful of clean dry (that
> means no water) lubricious fuel. A two cycle Detroit will eat about
> anything-until the pistons or liners fail.
>
> It's worth noting here that onroad Diesel fuel is a lot less
> lubricious (low sulfur) than it used to be, and adding K-1 could push
> it over the edge a lot easier today than in past years. I would always
> add oil if you have to add kero or Jet A to thin out gelled #2 in the
> winter. Not two stroke oil-which contains octane boosters (cetane
> killers)-SAE 30 or 20 nondetergent motor oil. ULSD diesel is going to
> be even "drier" and will necessitate, in my opinion, refit or
> continuous use of lube additives on (some) vintage diesels.
>
> Bill oIIIIIo is a _car mechanic_. He has never had to think in
> engineering terms, which is why people in the genset business won't
> hire car mechanics. They can turn wrenches great but they can't think
> in engineering terms, and when you get into peak shaving,
> cogeneration, or process combustion/compound cycle applications (we
> had sets burning sewer gas, palm oil, and a couple of other things we
> are under NDA on) they are lost. We had everything from 20 hp Isuzu
> and Lister-Petter engines to converted rail power packages-Fairbanks
> Morse and EMD railroad engine/generators rescued from junked or
> derailed locos rewound for telco 48V DC service. I also had a 240D
> Benz that I ran several thousand gallons of legally unusable Jet
> A-with my employer's permission and encouragement as long as I agreed
> not to say anything if the engine failed-through. I always added Grade
> 80 Aeroshell nondetergent oil-paid for at the parts couunter-or Power
> Service and had zero problems. Your mileage, literally, could be very
> different-I am not saying, and Bill knows I never did, "do this."
>
> Boy, am I glad Daimler bought Chrysler. Those guys are _engineers_!
gibberish!
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Ted Azito wrote:
>
> Diesel engines have some similar requirements and some different ones
> from gas turbines. Diesel Cycle (Otto Cycle means spark ignition,
> throttled air and fuel) piston engines require fuel that eassily
> ignites when ejaculated into the incandescent combustion chamber
> whereas turbines have a continuous flame once lit. This ability to
> ignite is called "cetane rating" because it is a measure of the fuel's
> ignitability as compared to pure cetane. (Octane rating, in spark
> ignition fuels,is the fuel's _resistance_ to spontaneous ignition,and
> is the comparison of the fuel to iso-octane).
>
> Because cetane rating and octane rating are nearly
> reciprocal,although not in any fixed relationship,it's very difficult
> to make a fuel that will run in both spark and compression ignition
> engines. SI engines like high octane gasolines, ethanol, methanol, and
> gaseous fuels like propane and methane-provided their fuel systems can
> meter them in the right amounts. (Yes, a gasoline engine will run on
> Bacardi 151-if the fuel-air mixture can be set rich enough.) CI
> engines burn combustible oils-sixteen chain hydrocarbons, coal oils,
> and certain vegetable oils. Turbines are by their nature pretty
> omnivorous-as long as they are a liquid through the fuel controller
> (or a gas if you have a gaseous fuel system)they will burn,the T-wheel
> turns, the compressor sucks in the air, and things are good. Unless
> lead, sulphur, or something else attacks the hot exotic metal parts.
>
> The fuel controllers and injection apparatus for Diesels and turbines
> are very different, but they have some similar requirements. They do
> not tolerate particles, water, oils incompatible with their seals, or
> fuels with no lubricity. Diesel pumps are more particular, in general,
> than turbine controllers. The Bosch inline pump used in MBZ,Isuzu,Cat,
> Mack, and other engines is particularly needful of clean dry (that
> means no water) lubricious fuel. A two cycle Detroit will eat about
> anything-until the pistons or liners fail.
>
> It's worth noting here that onroad Diesel fuel is a lot less
> lubricious (low sulfur) than it used to be, and adding K-1 could push
> it over the edge a lot easier today than in past years. I would always
> add oil if you have to add kero or Jet A to thin out gelled #2 in the
> winter. Not two stroke oil-which contains octane boosters (cetane
> killers)-SAE 30 or 20 nondetergent motor oil. ULSD diesel is going to
> be even "drier" and will necessitate, in my opinion, refit or
> continuous use of lube additives on (some) vintage diesels.
>
> Bill oIIIIIo is a _car mechanic_. He has never had to think in
> engineering terms, which is why people in the genset business won't
> hire car mechanics. They can turn wrenches great but they can't think
> in engineering terms, and when you get into peak shaving,
> cogeneration, or process combustion/compound cycle applications (we
> had sets burning sewer gas, palm oil, and a couple of other things we
> are under NDA on) they are lost. We had everything from 20 hp Isuzu
> and Lister-Petter engines to converted rail power packages-Fairbanks
> Morse and EMD railroad engine/generators rescued from junked or
> derailed locos rewound for telco 48V DC service. I also had a 240D
> Benz that I ran several thousand gallons of legally unusable Jet
> A-with my employer's permission and encouragement as long as I agreed
> not to say anything if the engine failed-through. I always added Grade
> 80 Aeroshell nondetergent oil-paid for at the parts couunter-or Power
> Service and had zero problems. Your mileage, literally, could be very
> different-I am not saying, and Bill knows I never did, "do this."
>
> Boy, am I glad Daimler bought Chrysler. Those guys are _engineers_!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Diesel Alternate Fuels-OT (Until Jeeps Dieselized,I.E.Soon)
Diesel and spark ignition, in the same sentence? Absolute
gibberish!
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Ted Azito wrote:
>
> Diesel engines have some similar requirements and some different ones
> from gas turbines. Diesel Cycle (Otto Cycle means spark ignition,
> throttled air and fuel) piston engines require fuel that eassily
> ignites when ejaculated into the incandescent combustion chamber
> whereas turbines have a continuous flame once lit. This ability to
> ignite is called "cetane rating" because it is a measure of the fuel's
> ignitability as compared to pure cetane. (Octane rating, in spark
> ignition fuels,is the fuel's _resistance_ to spontaneous ignition,and
> is the comparison of the fuel to iso-octane).
>
> Because cetane rating and octane rating are nearly
> reciprocal,although not in any fixed relationship,it's very difficult
> to make a fuel that will run in both spark and compression ignition
> engines. SI engines like high octane gasolines, ethanol, methanol, and
> gaseous fuels like propane and methane-provided their fuel systems can
> meter them in the right amounts. (Yes, a gasoline engine will run on
> Bacardi 151-if the fuel-air mixture can be set rich enough.) CI
> engines burn combustible oils-sixteen chain hydrocarbons, coal oils,
> and certain vegetable oils. Turbines are by their nature pretty
> omnivorous-as long as they are a liquid through the fuel controller
> (or a gas if you have a gaseous fuel system)they will burn,the T-wheel
> turns, the compressor sucks in the air, and things are good. Unless
> lead, sulphur, or something else attacks the hot exotic metal parts.
>
> The fuel controllers and injection apparatus for Diesels and turbines
> are very different, but they have some similar requirements. They do
> not tolerate particles, water, oils incompatible with their seals, or
> fuels with no lubricity. Diesel pumps are more particular, in general,
> than turbine controllers. The Bosch inline pump used in MBZ,Isuzu,Cat,
> Mack, and other engines is particularly needful of clean dry (that
> means no water) lubricious fuel. A two cycle Detroit will eat about
> anything-until the pistons or liners fail.
>
> It's worth noting here that onroad Diesel fuel is a lot less
> lubricious (low sulfur) than it used to be, and adding K-1 could push
> it over the edge a lot easier today than in past years. I would always
> add oil if you have to add kero or Jet A to thin out gelled #2 in the
> winter. Not two stroke oil-which contains octane boosters (cetane
> killers)-SAE 30 or 20 nondetergent motor oil. ULSD diesel is going to
> be even "drier" and will necessitate, in my opinion, refit or
> continuous use of lube additives on (some) vintage diesels.
>
> Bill oIIIIIo is a _car mechanic_. He has never had to think in
> engineering terms, which is why people in the genset business won't
> hire car mechanics. They can turn wrenches great but they can't think
> in engineering terms, and when you get into peak shaving,
> cogeneration, or process combustion/compound cycle applications (we
> had sets burning sewer gas, palm oil, and a couple of other things we
> are under NDA on) they are lost. We had everything from 20 hp Isuzu
> and Lister-Petter engines to converted rail power packages-Fairbanks
> Morse and EMD railroad engine/generators rescued from junked or
> derailed locos rewound for telco 48V DC service. I also had a 240D
> Benz that I ran several thousand gallons of legally unusable Jet
> A-with my employer's permission and encouragement as long as I agreed
> not to say anything if the engine failed-through. I always added Grade
> 80 Aeroshell nondetergent oil-paid for at the parts couunter-or Power
> Service and had zero problems. Your mileage, literally, could be very
> different-I am not saying, and Bill knows I never did, "do this."
>
> Boy, am I glad Daimler bought Chrysler. Those guys are _engineers_!
gibberish!
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Ted Azito wrote:
>
> Diesel engines have some similar requirements and some different ones
> from gas turbines. Diesel Cycle (Otto Cycle means spark ignition,
> throttled air and fuel) piston engines require fuel that eassily
> ignites when ejaculated into the incandescent combustion chamber
> whereas turbines have a continuous flame once lit. This ability to
> ignite is called "cetane rating" because it is a measure of the fuel's
> ignitability as compared to pure cetane. (Octane rating, in spark
> ignition fuels,is the fuel's _resistance_ to spontaneous ignition,and
> is the comparison of the fuel to iso-octane).
>
> Because cetane rating and octane rating are nearly
> reciprocal,although not in any fixed relationship,it's very difficult
> to make a fuel that will run in both spark and compression ignition
> engines. SI engines like high octane gasolines, ethanol, methanol, and
> gaseous fuels like propane and methane-provided their fuel systems can
> meter them in the right amounts. (Yes, a gasoline engine will run on
> Bacardi 151-if the fuel-air mixture can be set rich enough.) CI
> engines burn combustible oils-sixteen chain hydrocarbons, coal oils,
> and certain vegetable oils. Turbines are by their nature pretty
> omnivorous-as long as they are a liquid through the fuel controller
> (or a gas if you have a gaseous fuel system)they will burn,the T-wheel
> turns, the compressor sucks in the air, and things are good. Unless
> lead, sulphur, or something else attacks the hot exotic metal parts.
>
> The fuel controllers and injection apparatus for Diesels and turbines
> are very different, but they have some similar requirements. They do
> not tolerate particles, water, oils incompatible with their seals, or
> fuels with no lubricity. Diesel pumps are more particular, in general,
> than turbine controllers. The Bosch inline pump used in MBZ,Isuzu,Cat,
> Mack, and other engines is particularly needful of clean dry (that
> means no water) lubricious fuel. A two cycle Detroit will eat about
> anything-until the pistons or liners fail.
>
> It's worth noting here that onroad Diesel fuel is a lot less
> lubricious (low sulfur) than it used to be, and adding K-1 could push
> it over the edge a lot easier today than in past years. I would always
> add oil if you have to add kero or Jet A to thin out gelled #2 in the
> winter. Not two stroke oil-which contains octane boosters (cetane
> killers)-SAE 30 or 20 nondetergent motor oil. ULSD diesel is going to
> be even "drier" and will necessitate, in my opinion, refit or
> continuous use of lube additives on (some) vintage diesels.
>
> Bill oIIIIIo is a _car mechanic_. He has never had to think in
> engineering terms, which is why people in the genset business won't
> hire car mechanics. They can turn wrenches great but they can't think
> in engineering terms, and when you get into peak shaving,
> cogeneration, or process combustion/compound cycle applications (we
> had sets burning sewer gas, palm oil, and a couple of other things we
> are under NDA on) they are lost. We had everything from 20 hp Isuzu
> and Lister-Petter engines to converted rail power packages-Fairbanks
> Morse and EMD railroad engine/generators rescued from junked or
> derailed locos rewound for telco 48V DC service. I also had a 240D
> Benz that I ran several thousand gallons of legally unusable Jet
> A-with my employer's permission and encouragement as long as I agreed
> not to say anything if the engine failed-through. I always added Grade
> 80 Aeroshell nondetergent oil-paid for at the parts couunter-or Power
> Service and had zero problems. Your mileage, literally, could be very
> different-I am not saying, and Bill knows I never did, "do this."
>
> Boy, am I glad Daimler bought Chrysler. Those guys are _engineers_!