Mike Romain

I was towing the overload empty bunk trailer across Vancouver Island via
unused logging roads on an overnight drive going 'really' slow.

But!

I had to pass through one town at 2:00 AM, there was no way around it
and I needed gas. Bingo, some ditz rear ended me in the gas station
parking lot at the pumps. The attendant called the cops.

I got popped for the overload.

It always will be that 'safe' spot or 'short slow careful' drive where
something bad is going to happen you know, always.....

Mike

Joshua Nelson wrote:
>
> I had honestly not thought about the legal aspect. I can appreciate
> from that angle why you would want to be extra conservative, but,
> well, legality is a totally different issue from the physical
> properties of the vehicle. For example, you can probably also get in
> pretty hot water (vehicular manslaughter?) for having a fatal wreck at
> 60mph in a 45mph zone, but that doesn't necessarily mean that a jeep
> is inherently unsafe at 60mph. Or even that that stretch of road
> necessarily deserves a 45mph speed limit for any other reason than to
> be a speed trap and generate income for the local police force. If
> that jurisdiction raised the speed limit to 60mph - or did away with
> laws about towing limits - that doesn't make the jeep any more or less
> safe. So I'm not judging things from a legal aspect, just relating my
> experience with towing and exceeding the stated weight limit, albeit
> in a careful and cautious manner - which went just fine.
>
> Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3F798488.70C2B372@sympatico.ca>...
> > Oh man, where do you come up with this stuff?
> >
> > It is quite simple.
> >
> > It is totally illegal to tow anything more than the door sticker or
> > owners manual states is the GVWR with trailer.
> >
> > If you get hit by someone and the cops come, 'you' are the one going to
> > be busted. (been there, done that, got minorly rear ended, trailer
> > ended up behind a police ordered tow truck)
> >
> > If you hit someone such as a kid that jumps out from the front of a van,
> > having an overload trailer turns an accident into vehicular manslaughter
> > and can totally ruin your day, or decade, depending on how long they
> > toss you in jail for.
> >
> > The cops also specifically watch out for overloaded trailers, the
> > newspaper recently said they nailed something like 15 overloaded
> > trailers the last long weekend.
> >
> > And 'Yes', the highway patrol do carry portable scales in their trunks
> > to check.
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> >
> > Joshua Nelson wrote:
> > >
> > > Take manufacturer recommendations with a grain of salt. Remember they
> > > are writing that owner's manual with a battalion of liability lawyers
> > > looking over their shoulders. If the vehicle can safely tow 6,000
> > > lbs, they probably divide by 3 and put "don't tow more than 2,000 lbs"
> > > in the manual to cover their butts.
> > >
> > > There is no way that towing is such a one size fits all business. If
> > > you're towing on flat ground and have an 8-cylinder engine and heavy
> > > duty transmission, and keep it under 55mph, there is no reason a
> > > cherokee can't tow 5,000 pounds or possibly much more. However if you
> > > want to drive at max speed and haul something over the continental
> > > divide that is another matter entirely... so scale your expectations
> > > accordingly.

Matt Macchiarolo

In article <b102b6e4.0309301020.710504e1@posting.google.com >, spam_box@ev1.net
(Joshua Nelson) writes:

>There's no need to be rude. Per another posterr who looked at the
>official DC manual, the cherokee manual states the auto transmission
>models can tow 5000 lbs. Case closed.

Using your logic, you should be able to tow 15,000 pounds with a cherokee...

In article <b102b6e4.0309291324.2423944f@posting.google.com >, spam_box@ev1.net
(Joshua Nelson) writes:

> If the vehicle can safely tow 6,000
>lbs, they probably divide by 3 and put "don't tow more than 2,000 lbs"
>in the manual to cover their butts.
>

>
>As for knowing "nothing about" towing.... We have indeed flat towed
>the TJ with the CJ successfully and safely. Again though, this was at
>low speeds on back roads in flat country, in a modified CJ with disc
>brakes, V8 and NV transmission, and should not be taken as a blanket
>endorsement of just towing any TJ with any CJ under any conditions.
>Once again, "it depends upon the circumstances." and you can take that
>to the bank!!

The point is your CJ's GCWR was most likely exceeded, and if you were stopped,
you WOULD be ticketed, both for exceeding the GCWR and for not having lights on
the towed vehicle...

If memory serves, you can modify a vehicle all you want, you might change its
actual towing capacity but it would not legally change the factory gross
combined weight rating.
* * *
Matt Macchiarolo
www.townpeddler.com
www.wolverine4wd.org
http://wolverine4wd.org/rigs/macchiarolo_ml.html

Matt Macchiarolo

In article <b102b6e4.0309301020.710504e1@posting.google.com >, spam_box@ev1.net
(Joshua Nelson) writes:

>There's no need to be rude. Per another posterr who looked at the
>official DC manual, the cherokee manual states the auto transmission
>models can tow 5000 lbs. Case closed.

Using your logic, you should be able to tow 15,000 pounds with a cherokee...

In article <b102b6e4.0309291324.2423944f@posting.google.com >, spam_box@ev1.net
(Joshua Nelson) writes:

> If the vehicle can safely tow 6,000
>lbs, they probably divide by 3 and put "don't tow more than 2,000 lbs"
>in the manual to cover their butts.
>

>
>As for knowing "nothing about" towing.... We have indeed flat towed
>the TJ with the CJ successfully and safely. Again though, this was at
>low speeds on back roads in flat country, in a modified CJ with disc
>brakes, V8 and NV transmission, and should not be taken as a blanket
>endorsement of just towing any TJ with any CJ under any conditions.
>Once again, "it depends upon the circumstances." and you can take that
>to the bank!!

The point is your CJ's GCWR was most likely exceeded, and if you were stopped,
you WOULD be ticketed, both for exceeding the GCWR and for not having lights on
the towed vehicle...

If memory serves, you can modify a vehicle all you want, you might change its
actual towing capacity but it would not legally change the factory gross
combined weight rating.
* * *
Matt Macchiarolo
www.townpeddler.com
www.wolverine4wd.org
http://wolverine4wd.org/rigs/macchiarolo_ml.html

Joe

"but that doesn't necessarily mean that a jeep is inherently unsafe at
60mph"
Compared to my daily driver, my Jeep IS unsafe at 60MPH... I can only image
a hard swerve at 60MPH in my lifted CJ... OUCH

"Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:b102b6e4.0309301027.42c3b0ce@posting.google.c om...
> I had honestly not thought about the legal aspect. I can appreciate
> from that angle why you would want to be extra conservative, but,
> well, legality is a totally different issue from the physical
> properties of the vehicle. For example, you can probably also get in
> pretty hot water (vehicular manslaughter?) for having a fatal wreck at
> 60mph in a 45mph zone, but that doesn't necessarily mean that a jeep
> is inherently unsafe at 60mph. Or even that that stretch of road
> necessarily deserves a 45mph speed limit for any other reason than to
> be a speed trap and generate income for the local police force. If
> that jurisdiction raised the speed limit to 60mph - or did away with
> laws about towing limits - that doesn't make the jeep any more or less
> safe. So I'm not judging things from a legal aspect, just relating my
> experience with towing and exceeding the stated weight limit, albeit
> in a careful and cautious manner - which went just fine.
>
>
> Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:<3F798488.70C2B372@sympatico.ca>...
> > Oh man, where do you come up with this stuff?
> >
> > It is quite simple.
> >
> > It is totally illegal to tow anything more than the door sticker or
> > owners manual states is the GVWR with trailer.
> >
> > If you get hit by someone and the cops come, 'you' are the one going to
> > be busted. (been there, done that, got minorly rear ended, trailer
> > ended up behind a police ordered tow truck)
> >
> > If you hit someone such as a kid that jumps out from the front of a van,
> > having an overload trailer turns an accident into vehicular manslaughter
> > and can totally ruin your day, or decade, depending on how long they
> > toss you in jail for.
> >
> > The cops also specifically watch out for overloaded trailers, the
> > newspaper recently said they nailed something like 15 overloaded
> > trailers the last long weekend.
> >
> > And 'Yes', the highway patrol do carry portable scales in their trunks
> > to check.
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> >
> > Joshua Nelson wrote:
> > >
> > > Take manufacturer recommendations with a grain of salt. Remember they
> > > are writing that owner's manual with a battalion of liability lawyers
> > > looking over their shoulders. If the vehicle can safely tow 6,000
> > > lbs, they probably divide by 3 and put "don't tow more than 2,000 lbs"
> > > in the manual to cover their butts.
> > >
> > > There is no way that towing is such a one size fits all business. If
> > > you're towing on flat ground and have an 8-cylinder engine and heavy
> > > duty transmission, and keep it under 55mph, there is no reason a
> > > cherokee can't tow 5,000 pounds or possibly much more. However if you
> > > want to drive at max speed and haul something over the continental
> > > divide that is another matter entirely... so scale your expectations
> > > accordingly.

Joe

"but that doesn't necessarily mean that a jeep is inherently unsafe at
60mph"
Compared to my daily driver, my Jeep IS unsafe at 60MPH... I can only image
a hard swerve at 60MPH in my lifted CJ... OUCH

"Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:b102b6e4.0309301027.42c3b0ce@posting.google.c om...
> I had honestly not thought about the legal aspect. I can appreciate
> from that angle why you would want to be extra conservative, but,
> well, legality is a totally different issue from the physical
> properties of the vehicle. For example, you can probably also get in
> pretty hot water (vehicular manslaughter?) for having a fatal wreck at
> 60mph in a 45mph zone, but that doesn't necessarily mean that a jeep
> is inherently unsafe at 60mph. Or even that that stretch of road
> necessarily deserves a 45mph speed limit for any other reason than to
> be a speed trap and generate income for the local police force. If
> that jurisdiction raised the speed limit to 60mph - or did away with
> laws about towing limits - that doesn't make the jeep any more or less
> safe. So I'm not judging things from a legal aspect, just relating my
> experience with towing and exceeding the stated weight limit, albeit
> in a careful and cautious manner - which went just fine.
>
>
> Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:<3F798488.70C2B372@sympatico.ca>...
> > Oh man, where do you come up with this stuff?
> >
> > It is quite simple.
> >
> > It is totally illegal to tow anything more than the door sticker or
> > owners manual states is the GVWR with trailer.
> >
> > If you get hit by someone and the cops come, 'you' are the one going to
> > be busted. (been there, done that, got minorly rear ended, trailer
> > ended up behind a police ordered tow truck)
> >
> > If you hit someone such as a kid that jumps out from the front of a van,
> > having an overload trailer turns an accident into vehicular manslaughter
> > and can totally ruin your day, or decade, depending on how long they
> > toss you in jail for.
> >
> > The cops also specifically watch out for overloaded trailers, the
> > newspaper recently said they nailed something like 15 overloaded
> > trailers the last long weekend.
> >
> > And 'Yes', the highway patrol do carry portable scales in their trunks
> > to check.
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> >
> > Joshua Nelson wrote:
> > >
> > > Take manufacturer recommendations with a grain of salt. Remember they
> > > are writing that owner's manual with a battalion of liability lawyers
> > > looking over their shoulders. If the vehicle can safely tow 6,000
> > > lbs, they probably divide by 3 and put "don't tow more than 2,000 lbs"
> > > in the manual to cover their butts.
> > >
> > > There is no way that towing is such a one size fits all business. If
> > > you're towing on flat ground and have an 8-cylinder engine and heavy
> > > duty transmission, and keep it under 55mph, there is no reason a
> > > cherokee can't tow 5,000 pounds or possibly much more. However if you
> > > want to drive at max speed and haul something over the continental
> > > divide that is another matter entirely... so scale your expectations
> > > accordingly.

T. Greening

"Matt Macchiarolo" <mlmacchia@aol.comspambgon> wrote in message
news:20030930104553.05539.00001135@mb-m16.aol.com...
> In article <b102b6e4.0309300534.23c9f17f@posting.google.com >,
spam_box@ev1.net
>
> it's also ridiculous to expect that you can legally and safely exceed the
> recommendation put in place by a manufacturer based on what *you* think is
safe
> and legal. No one's arguing with you that the dynamics of a low-speed tow
in Fl
> are different that freeway speed in CO. Where you are wrong is your
assertion
> that it is OK to tow beyond the factory recommendations, from a safety or
legal
> point of view.
>
> Would you tow a 6,000 pound trailer with a Cherokee with your 3-year-old
> daughter in the back seat? Would you risk her safety?


Boy, I'm probably opening myself up here but....

I don't know, would I? I am not at all familiar with cherokees but this
whole towing issue has got me to wondering. Wondering what ARE the
determining factors in the towing equation. I see where Joshua states that
DC says an auto cherokee can safely tow 5000#. Where does that number come
from? I'm guessing a cherokee weighs somewhere "close" to it's 5000# tow
limitation. My F-250 on the other hand weighs in the neighborhood of 6k-ish
and yet is rated to tow 20,000#. Three times it's own weight. Our
semi-truck weighs in the vicinity of 22,000# yet can tow approx. 63,000#
without a permit. With the proper trailer and permits it's upwards of
80,000#-ish (little foggy on that one because we never haul that heavy).

I know wheelbase has been touted as a big issue in the past, yet a TJ and CJ
are relatively the same weight/length but one towing the other is being said
to be a big no-no. The average semi trailer is close to twice the length of
it's tow vehicle (MANY times it's length when they haul doubles and triples)
and upwards of 3 times the weight (loaded) yet that is ok. I can tow a
trailer that far exceeds the length of my pickup truck and again, pushing 3
times it's weight but that's ok.

Shoot, all the time I see pickup trucks towing campers the size of Rhode
Island, with no issues.

I realize the stated weight limits are there for a reason but there has to
be more to the determination than just weight/length of the tow vehicle.

Someone mentioned (sarcastically) a cherokee towing 15,000#. Actually it
probably COULD be done and done safely. Depending on the terrain AND the
sense of the driver. Unfortunately for us the sense of the driver can not
always be counted upon so I am quite happy with the rules as far as safe tow
weights go. In some "technical" sense this Joshua fellow may be right. You
can conceivably safely exceed a vehicles towing limits. Is it a good idea?
Probably not, and most certainly not legal. And I for one for damn sure
don't won't to depend on the sensibilities of whatever driver may be behind
the wheel.

T. Greening

"Matt Macchiarolo" <mlmacchia@aol.comspambgon> wrote in message
news:20030930104553.05539.00001135@mb-m16.aol.com...
> In article <b102b6e4.0309300534.23c9f17f@posting.google.com >,
spam_box@ev1.net
>
> it's also ridiculous to expect that you can legally and safely exceed the
> recommendation put in place by a manufacturer based on what *you* think is
safe
> and legal. No one's arguing with you that the dynamics of a low-speed tow
in Fl
> are different that freeway speed in CO. Where you are wrong is your
assertion
> that it is OK to tow beyond the factory recommendations, from a safety or
legal
> point of view.
>
> Would you tow a 6,000 pound trailer with a Cherokee with your 3-year-old
> daughter in the back seat? Would you risk her safety?


Boy, I'm probably opening myself up here but....

I don't know, would I? I am not at all familiar with cherokees but this
whole towing issue has got me to wondering. Wondering what ARE the
determining factors in the towing equation. I see where Joshua states that
DC says an auto cherokee can safely tow 5000#. Where does that number come
from? I'm guessing a cherokee weighs somewhere "close" to it's 5000# tow
limitation. My F-250 on the other hand weighs in the neighborhood of 6k-ish
and yet is rated to tow 20,000#. Three times it's own weight. Our
semi-truck weighs in the vicinity of 22,000# yet can tow approx. 63,000#
without a permit. With the proper trailer and permits it's upwards of
80,000#-ish (little foggy on that one because we never haul that heavy).

I know wheelbase has been touted as a big issue in the past, yet a TJ and CJ
are relatively the same weight/length but one towing the other is being said
to be a big no-no. The average semi trailer is close to twice the length of
it's tow vehicle (MANY times it's length when they haul doubles and triples)
and upwards of 3 times the weight (loaded) yet that is ok. I can tow a
trailer that far exceeds the length of my pickup truck and again, pushing 3
times it's weight but that's ok.

Shoot, all the time I see pickup trucks towing campers the size of Rhode
Island, with no issues.

I realize the stated weight limits are there for a reason but there has to
be more to the determination than just weight/length of the tow vehicle.

Someone mentioned (sarcastically) a cherokee towing 15,000#. Actually it
probably COULD be done and done safely. Depending on the terrain AND the
sense of the driver. Unfortunately for us the sense of the driver can not
always be counted upon so I am quite happy with the rules as far as safe tow
weights go. In some "technical" sense this Joshua fellow may be right. You
can conceivably safely exceed a vehicles towing limits. Is it a good idea?
Probably not, and most certainly not legal. And I for one for damn sure
don't won't to depend on the sensibilities of whatever driver may be behind
the wheel.

L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III

I think if you ever ride in a 3/4 ton truck you'll realize why
their tow rating is higher, their rear springs are like no spring at
all: http://www.gonecamping.net/stories/tow_ratings.html
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

"T. Greening" wrote:
>
> Boy, I'm probably opening myself up here but....
>
> I don't know, would I? I am not at all familiar with cherokees but this
> whole towing issue has got me to wondering. Wondering what ARE the
> determining factors in the towing equation. I see where Joshua states that
> DC says an auto cherokee can safely tow 5000#. Where does that number come
> from? I'm guessing a cherokee weighs somewhere "close" to it's 5000# tow
> limitation. My F-250 on the other hand weighs in the neighborhood of 6k-ish
> and yet is rated to tow 20,000#. Three times it's own weight. Our
> semi-truck weighs in the vicinity of 22,000# yet can tow approx. 63,000#
> without a permit. With the proper trailer and permits it's upwards of
> 80,000#-ish (little foggy on that one because we never haul that heavy).
>
> I know wheelbase has been touted as a big issue in the past, yet a TJ and CJ
> are relatively the same weight/length but one towing the other is being said
> to be a big no-no. The average semi trailer is close to twice the length of
> it's tow vehicle (MANY times it's length when they haul doubles and triples)
> and upwards of 3 times the weight (loaded) yet that is ok. I can tow a
> trailer that far exceeds the length of my pickup truck and again, pushing 3
> times it's weight but that's ok.
>
> Shoot, all the time I see pickup trucks towing campers the size of Rhode
> Island, with no issues.
>
> I realize the stated weight limits are there for a reason but there has to
> be more to the determination than just weight/length of the tow vehicle.
>
> Someone mentioned (sarcastically) a cherokee towing 15,000#. Actually it
> probably COULD be done and done safely. Depending on the terrain AND the
> sense of the driver. Unfortunately for us the sense of the driver can not
> always be counted upon so I am quite happy with the rules as far as safe tow
> weights go. In some "technical" sense this Joshua fellow may be right. You
> can conceivably safely exceed a vehicles towing limits. Is it a good idea?
> Probably not, and most certainly not legal. And I for one for damn sure
> don't won't to depend on the sensibilities of whatever driver may be behind
> the wheel.

L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III

I think if you ever ride in a 3/4 ton truck you'll realize why
their tow rating is higher, their rear springs are like no spring at
all: http://www.gonecamping.net/stories/tow_ratings.html
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

"T. Greening" wrote:
>
> Boy, I'm probably opening myself up here but....
>
> I don't know, would I? I am not at all familiar with cherokees but this
> whole towing issue has got me to wondering. Wondering what ARE the
> determining factors in the towing equation. I see where Joshua states that
> DC says an auto cherokee can safely tow 5000#. Where does that number come
> from? I'm guessing a cherokee weighs somewhere "close" to it's 5000# tow
> limitation. My F-250 on the other hand weighs in the neighborhood of 6k-ish
> and yet is rated to tow 20,000#. Three times it's own weight. Our
> semi-truck weighs in the vicinity of 22,000# yet can tow approx. 63,000#
> without a permit. With the proper trailer and permits it's upwards of
> 80,000#-ish (little foggy on that one because we never haul that heavy).
>
> I know wheelbase has been touted as a big issue in the past, yet a TJ and CJ
> are relatively the same weight/length but one towing the other is being said
> to be a big no-no. The average semi trailer is close to twice the length of
> it's tow vehicle (MANY times it's length when they haul doubles and triples)
> and upwards of 3 times the weight (loaded) yet that is ok. I can tow a
> trailer that far exceeds the length of my pickup truck and again, pushing 3
> times it's weight but that's ok.
>
> Shoot, all the time I see pickup trucks towing campers the size of Rhode
> Island, with no issues.
>
> I realize the stated weight limits are there for a reason but there has to
> be more to the determination than just weight/length of the tow vehicle.
>
> Someone mentioned (sarcastically) a cherokee towing 15,000#. Actually it
> probably COULD be done and done safely. Depending on the terrain AND the
> sense of the driver. Unfortunately for us the sense of the driver can not
> always be counted upon so I am quite happy with the rules as far as safe tow
> weights go. In some "technical" sense this Joshua fellow may be right. You
> can conceivably safely exceed a vehicles towing limits. Is it a good idea?
> Probably not, and most certainly not legal. And I for one for damn sure
> don't won't to depend on the sensibilities of whatever driver may be behind
> the wheel.

twaldron

That chart says a Ford F150 is only good to tow 3500#. Is that right??

L.W.(ßill) ------ III wrote:

> I think if you ever ride in a 3/4 ton truck you'll realize why
> their tow rating is higher, their rear springs are like no spring at
> all: http://www.gonecamping.net/stories/tow_ratings.html
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/


--
__________________________________________________ _________
tw
03 TJ Rubicon
01 XJ Sport

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
-- Dave Barry

http://www.7slotgrille.com/jeepers/t...ron/index.html
(Please remove the OBVIOUS to reply by email)
__________________________________________________ _________