Tracie

On Aug 27, 10:47 am, Tracie <brain...@upstate.edu> wrote:
> On Aug 27, 10:30 am, Tracie <brain...@upstate.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 27, 8:25 am, "Bill Spiliotopoulos" <vsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > A correction,
> > > Caster angles should be positive (7 degrees), not negative.
>
> > > Ï "Bill Spiliotopoulos" <vsp...@yahoo.com> Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìánews:faudc7$e95$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr...
>
> > > >I have to remind you that the TJ has a coil sprung suspension with upper
> > > >and lower arms, which alter the pinion angle when it is raised - lowered,
> > > >unlike the leaf sprung suspensions which keep the pinion angle constant.
>
> > > > Raising 2" does create driveline vibes because the rear pinion is no
> > > > longer parallel to the transfer case output shaft.
> > > > You can chose to ignore them or may not notice they are there, but the
> > > > truth is that they exist.
> > > > I have seen TJ of friends of mine that said they didn't have any driveline
> > > > vibes after a 2" lift, but when I drove their rig I could feel the
> > > > difference. With a mismatch in pinion - output shaft angle, it feels like
> > > > the engine is running rough and they blame the engine or the exhaust. The
> > > > only way to convince them was to drop their thansfer case 1/2 inch and ask
> > > > them if they cound feel the difference, which they could.
>
> > > > Yes, the TJ has a double cardan joint in the transfer case front end,
> > > > which requires the pinion angle to be set almost parallel to the
> > > > driveshaft (0.5 degrees lower). You won't notice driveline vibes when in
> > > > 2wd mode though. But the front pinion angle also affects the front caster
> > > > angle.
> > > > By raising 2" in the TJ, the caster increases from -7 degrees to about -5.
> > > > The front pinion also gets 2 degrees higher than the driveshaft. By
> > > > re-adjusting the front pinion angle, you fix the caster angle also.When
> > > > the front pinion is adjusted properly, you loose only 0.3 degrees of
> > > > caster angle for the 2" lift compared to the factory caster setting.
>
> > > > Now I speak all this from personal experience on the exact same vehicle as
> > > > the O.P., as I have installed the same lift on my TJ and setting the
> > > > pinion angles was what made it to ride smooth like stock again.
>
> > > > About adding cargo and upsetting the rear driveline angle to createvibes,
> > > > this is what happens in the TJ.
> > > > There is a range that the pinion angle may be off, which doesn't create
> > > > noticeable vibes. The rear pinion is set to the upper side of this range.
> > > > When you load the TJ and the suspension its lower, the rear pinion will
> > > > operate to the lower side of the range, and you won't get any vibes.. With
> > > > slight load, the pinion angle is at the center of the range and it feels
> > > > like running a bit smoother. But if you remove the hardtop and therear
> > > > seat, which makes the suspension sit higher, you will notice driveline
> > > > vibes.
>
> > > > Bill Spiliotopoulos,
> > > > '96 XJ,
> > > > '06 TJ.
>
> > > > ? "Mike Romain" <roma...@sympatico.ca> ?????? ??? ??????
> > > >news:46cedfd9$0$5203$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosti ng.com...
> > > >> What 'are' you talking about?
>
> > > >> The front has a double cardan or CV joint already so needs 'no tweaking'
> > > >> at all even for a larger lift and a 2" is not going to change the rear
> > > >> enough to matter.
>
> > > >> You get that much/more change with a load on or off.
>
> > > >> By your reckoning if I put 4 people and gear in my Jeep, it won't drive
> > > >> because my height will be off by at least 2".
>
> > > >> Mike
> > > >> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > >> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile...
> > > >> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> > > >> Jan/06http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
> > > >> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> > > >> Bill Spiliotopoulos wrote:
> > > >>>> 2.) With the 2" spacer lift, would I have to drop the t-case ordo
> > > >>>> any other mods besides slapping it on?
>
> > > >>> Yes.
>
> > > >>> You have to turn the rear axle forward, so that the pinion axis is
> > > >>> almost parallel (a bit lower) to the transfer case output shaft. Or
> > > >>> drop the transfer case 1/2 inch. Turning the rear axle forward will cost
> > > >>> more if you have a shop do it for you (requires either adjustablelower
> > > >>> arms, or elongating the upper arms rear mounting holes and installing an
> > > >>> eccentric washer to set the pinion angle). You may not be sensitive
> > > >>> enough to feel the vibes, but even with 1 inch lift, the pinion angle
> > > >>> gets misaligned, increasing mechanical noise and u-joint wear.
>
> > > >>> You also MUST rotate the front axle towards the rear to make the pinion
> > > >>> axis parallel with the front driveshaft.
> > > >>> This will restore the caster angle to factory specification, which is
> > > >>> very important to limit the occurence of death wobble. The toe-in on
> > > >>> the front axle must be set after the pinion angle is set for the front
> > > >>> axle.
>
> > > >>> The 2" spacer lift and 31" M/T tire combination is a very good
> > > >>> combination. If you disconnect the front sway-bar the off-road
> > > >>> capability of your rig will be dramatically increased compared towhat
> > > >>> it is right now. With the say-bar connected, your on-road behavior will
> > > >>> not be much affected.
> > > >>> This is a picture of a 2006 TJ with 2" spacer lift and 235R15 tires with
> > > >>> the swaay-bar disconnected.
> > > >>>http://alma-tech.com/tmp/tj_flex.jpg
>
> > > >>> But you must find a shop that is willing to deal with all the "minor"
> > > >>> details required to make the car run comfortable and safe as it was
> > > >>> prior to the lift (fine tune the pinion angles).
>
> > > >>> Bill Spiliotopoulos,
> > > >>> '96 XJ
> > > >>> '06 TJ.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > OK everybody.....new scenario.
>
> > I have found a lift kit that contains the following. Let me know what
> > you think of this kit vs. the kit with the 2.25" coil spacers, new
> > shocks, and my stock springs. Just for reminders, I have a 2006
> > Wrangler X with 6 speed manual, A/C, and 3.07 gears. I now have 31 X
> > 10.5 X 15 tires on my stock rims.
>
> > The new kit that I have found is this:
> > 1.) Rubicon springs (front and rear) that are 1" longer than my stock
> > springs
> > 2.) 2" coil spacers for front and rear
> > 3.) A 1.25" t-case drop kit made by Daystar
> > 4.) Four shocks that are rated for a 2-3" lift
>
> > This will give me a total lift of 3". Do I need to worry about a rear
> > track bar relocation bracket or getting a new CV driveshaft/SYE kit
> > with this type of setup? Anything else I should know with this type
> > of setup? And lastly, will 31s look too small with this type of lift
> > setup? Feel free to give me any other information that you can think
> > of regarding this lift vs. the original lift I was thinking of (the
> > one that was going to use my stock springs).
>
> > THANKS- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Mike and Bill --
>
> You both have VERY good points and I am grateful for the information
> that you've provided to me. I am just really new to this and don't
> want to have to do this lift 5 times over to get the results that I
> want.
>
> So on that note.....TW
> The instructions that you gave a couple of posts above (#1-#6).....I
> assume that this is good for the 2.25" spacers as well.....not just
> for 2" spacers? (I am assuming that 1/4 inch would not make much
> difference, but with stuff like this, it wouldn't surprise me if it
> did make a difference).
>
> Mike....
> If I just do the 2.25" spacer lift like you are suggesting, would a 1"
> body lift in the future cause any headaches in the future as far as
> the installation goes? I have heard some body lift kits are not
> compatible with jeeps that have A/C.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Bill/Mike/TW --

That's what I thought. I didn't think there was a difference in the
height either. In order to save myself all the headaches (and you
poor guys as well :D), I have decided to go with a 2.25" coil spacer
lift with the new shocks and my stock springs. I will most likely add
a 1" body lift for 32" tire clearance in the future. Which will still
give me roughly 5.5" of lift (with the 32s). And that's close enough
to what I wanted overall anyway (I wanted 6" of lift overall, but will
settle for 5.5").

Someone mentioned that when you get over 2" of suspension lift (Mike I
think this was you), that you start to have all sorts of headaches.
Not to sound silly, but will the 2.25" spacer vs. the 2" spacer make
much difference in the way of potential headaches associated with
driveshaft, adjustable control arms, etc.?

Tracie

On Aug 27, 10:47 am, Tracie <brain...@upstate.edu> wrote:
> On Aug 27, 10:30 am, Tracie <brain...@upstate.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 27, 8:25 am, "Bill Spiliotopoulos" <vsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > A correction,
> > > Caster angles should be positive (7 degrees), not negative.
>
> > > Ï "Bill Spiliotopoulos" <vsp...@yahoo.com> Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìánews:faudc7$e95$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr...
>
> > > >I have to remind you that the TJ has a coil sprung suspension with upper
> > > >and lower arms, which alter the pinion angle when it is raised - lowered,
> > > >unlike the leaf sprung suspensions which keep the pinion angle constant.
>
> > > > Raising 2" does create driveline vibes because the rear pinion is no
> > > > longer parallel to the transfer case output shaft.
> > > > You can chose to ignore them or may not notice they are there, but the
> > > > truth is that they exist.
> > > > I have seen TJ of friends of mine that said they didn't have any driveline
> > > > vibes after a 2" lift, but when I drove their rig I could feel the
> > > > difference. With a mismatch in pinion - output shaft angle, it feels like
> > > > the engine is running rough and they blame the engine or the exhaust. The
> > > > only way to convince them was to drop their thansfer case 1/2 inch and ask
> > > > them if they cound feel the difference, which they could.
>
> > > > Yes, the TJ has a double cardan joint in the transfer case front end,
> > > > which requires the pinion angle to be set almost parallel to the
> > > > driveshaft (0.5 degrees lower). You won't notice driveline vibes when in
> > > > 2wd mode though. But the front pinion angle also affects the front caster
> > > > angle.
> > > > By raising 2" in the TJ, the caster increases from -7 degrees to about -5.
> > > > The front pinion also gets 2 degrees higher than the driveshaft. By
> > > > re-adjusting the front pinion angle, you fix the caster angle also.When
> > > > the front pinion is adjusted properly, you loose only 0.3 degrees of
> > > > caster angle for the 2" lift compared to the factory caster setting.
>
> > > > Now I speak all this from personal experience on the exact same vehicle as
> > > > the O.P., as I have installed the same lift on my TJ and setting the
> > > > pinion angles was what made it to ride smooth like stock again.
>
> > > > About adding cargo and upsetting the rear driveline angle to createvibes,
> > > > this is what happens in the TJ.
> > > > There is a range that the pinion angle may be off, which doesn't create
> > > > noticeable vibes. The rear pinion is set to the upper side of this range.
> > > > When you load the TJ and the suspension its lower, the rear pinion will
> > > > operate to the lower side of the range, and you won't get any vibes.. With
> > > > slight load, the pinion angle is at the center of the range and it feels
> > > > like running a bit smoother. But if you remove the hardtop and therear
> > > > seat, which makes the suspension sit higher, you will notice driveline
> > > > vibes.
>
> > > > Bill Spiliotopoulos,
> > > > '96 XJ,
> > > > '06 TJ.
>
> > > > ? "Mike Romain" <roma...@sympatico.ca> ?????? ??? ??????
> > > >news:46cedfd9$0$5203$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosti ng.com...
> > > >> What 'are' you talking about?
>
> > > >> The front has a double cardan or CV joint already so needs 'no tweaking'
> > > >> at all even for a larger lift and a 2" is not going to change the rear
> > > >> enough to matter.
>
> > > >> You get that much/more change with a load on or off.
>
> > > >> By your reckoning if I put 4 people and gear in my Jeep, it won't drive
> > > >> because my height will be off by at least 2".
>
> > > >> Mike
> > > >> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > >> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile...
> > > >> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> > > >> Jan/06http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
> > > >> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> > > >> Bill Spiliotopoulos wrote:
> > > >>>> 2.) With the 2" spacer lift, would I have to drop the t-case ordo
> > > >>>> any other mods besides slapping it on?
>
> > > >>> Yes.
>
> > > >>> You have to turn the rear axle forward, so that the pinion axis is
> > > >>> almost parallel (a bit lower) to the transfer case output shaft. Or
> > > >>> drop the transfer case 1/2 inch. Turning the rear axle forward will cost
> > > >>> more if you have a shop do it for you (requires either adjustablelower
> > > >>> arms, or elongating the upper arms rear mounting holes and installing an
> > > >>> eccentric washer to set the pinion angle). You may not be sensitive
> > > >>> enough to feel the vibes, but even with 1 inch lift, the pinion angle
> > > >>> gets misaligned, increasing mechanical noise and u-joint wear.
>
> > > >>> You also MUST rotate the front axle towards the rear to make the pinion
> > > >>> axis parallel with the front driveshaft.
> > > >>> This will restore the caster angle to factory specification, which is
> > > >>> very important to limit the occurence of death wobble. The toe-in on
> > > >>> the front axle must be set after the pinion angle is set for the front
> > > >>> axle.
>
> > > >>> The 2" spacer lift and 31" M/T tire combination is a very good
> > > >>> combination. If you disconnect the front sway-bar the off-road
> > > >>> capability of your rig will be dramatically increased compared towhat
> > > >>> it is right now. With the say-bar connected, your on-road behavior will
> > > >>> not be much affected.
> > > >>> This is a picture of a 2006 TJ with 2" spacer lift and 235R15 tires with
> > > >>> the swaay-bar disconnected.
> > > >>>http://alma-tech.com/tmp/tj_flex.jpg
>
> > > >>> But you must find a shop that is willing to deal with all the "minor"
> > > >>> details required to make the car run comfortable and safe as it was
> > > >>> prior to the lift (fine tune the pinion angles).
>
> > > >>> Bill Spiliotopoulos,
> > > >>> '96 XJ
> > > >>> '06 TJ.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > OK everybody.....new scenario.
>
> > I have found a lift kit that contains the following. Let me know what
> > you think of this kit vs. the kit with the 2.25" coil spacers, new
> > shocks, and my stock springs. Just for reminders, I have a 2006
> > Wrangler X with 6 speed manual, A/C, and 3.07 gears. I now have 31 X
> > 10.5 X 15 tires on my stock rims.
>
> > The new kit that I have found is this:
> > 1.) Rubicon springs (front and rear) that are 1" longer than my stock
> > springs
> > 2.) 2" coil spacers for front and rear
> > 3.) A 1.25" t-case drop kit made by Daystar
> > 4.) Four shocks that are rated for a 2-3" lift
>
> > This will give me a total lift of 3". Do I need to worry about a rear
> > track bar relocation bracket or getting a new CV driveshaft/SYE kit
> > with this type of setup? Anything else I should know with this type
> > of setup? And lastly, will 31s look too small with this type of lift
> > setup? Feel free to give me any other information that you can think
> > of regarding this lift vs. the original lift I was thinking of (the
> > one that was going to use my stock springs).
>
> > THANKS- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Mike and Bill --
>
> You both have VERY good points and I am grateful for the information
> that you've provided to me. I am just really new to this and don't
> want to have to do this lift 5 times over to get the results that I
> want.
>
> So on that note.....TW
> The instructions that you gave a couple of posts above (#1-#6).....I
> assume that this is good for the 2.25" spacers as well.....not just
> for 2" spacers? (I am assuming that 1/4 inch would not make much
> difference, but with stuff like this, it wouldn't surprise me if it
> did make a difference).
>
> Mike....
> If I just do the 2.25" spacer lift like you are suggesting, would a 1"
> body lift in the future cause any headaches in the future as far as
> the installation goes? I have heard some body lift kits are not
> compatible with jeeps that have A/C.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Bill/Mike/TW --

That's what I thought. I didn't think there was a difference in the
height either. In order to save myself all the headaches (and you
poor guys as well :D), I have decided to go with a 2.25" coil spacer
lift with the new shocks and my stock springs. I will most likely add
a 1" body lift for 32" tire clearance in the future. Which will still
give me roughly 5.5" of lift (with the 32s). And that's close enough
to what I wanted overall anyway (I wanted 6" of lift overall, but will
settle for 5.5").

Someone mentioned that when you get over 2" of suspension lift (Mike I
think this was you), that you start to have all sorts of headaches.
Not to sound silly, but will the 2.25" spacer vs. the 2" spacer make
much difference in the way of potential headaches associated with
driveshaft, adjustable control arms, etc.?

Tracie

On Aug 27, 10:47 am, Tracie <brain...@upstate.edu> wrote:
> On Aug 27, 10:30 am, Tracie <brain...@upstate.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 27, 8:25 am, "Bill Spiliotopoulos" <vsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > A correction,
> > > Caster angles should be positive (7 degrees), not negative.
>
> > > Ï "Bill Spiliotopoulos" <vsp...@yahoo.com> Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìánews:faudc7$e95$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr...
>
> > > >I have to remind you that the TJ has a coil sprung suspension with upper
> > > >and lower arms, which alter the pinion angle when it is raised - lowered,
> > > >unlike the leaf sprung suspensions which keep the pinion angle constant.
>
> > > > Raising 2" does create driveline vibes because the rear pinion is no
> > > > longer parallel to the transfer case output shaft.
> > > > You can chose to ignore them or may not notice they are there, but the
> > > > truth is that they exist.
> > > > I have seen TJ of friends of mine that said they didn't have any driveline
> > > > vibes after a 2" lift, but when I drove their rig I could feel the
> > > > difference. With a mismatch in pinion - output shaft angle, it feels like
> > > > the engine is running rough and they blame the engine or the exhaust. The
> > > > only way to convince them was to drop their thansfer case 1/2 inch and ask
> > > > them if they cound feel the difference, which they could.
>
> > > > Yes, the TJ has a double cardan joint in the transfer case front end,
> > > > which requires the pinion angle to be set almost parallel to the
> > > > driveshaft (0.5 degrees lower). You won't notice driveline vibes when in
> > > > 2wd mode though. But the front pinion angle also affects the front caster
> > > > angle.
> > > > By raising 2" in the TJ, the caster increases from -7 degrees to about -5.
> > > > The front pinion also gets 2 degrees higher than the driveshaft. By
> > > > re-adjusting the front pinion angle, you fix the caster angle also.When
> > > > the front pinion is adjusted properly, you loose only 0.3 degrees of
> > > > caster angle for the 2" lift compared to the factory caster setting.
>
> > > > Now I speak all this from personal experience on the exact same vehicle as
> > > > the O.P., as I have installed the same lift on my TJ and setting the
> > > > pinion angles was what made it to ride smooth like stock again.
>
> > > > About adding cargo and upsetting the rear driveline angle to createvibes,
> > > > this is what happens in the TJ.
> > > > There is a range that the pinion angle may be off, which doesn't create
> > > > noticeable vibes. The rear pinion is set to the upper side of this range.
> > > > When you load the TJ and the suspension its lower, the rear pinion will
> > > > operate to the lower side of the range, and you won't get any vibes.. With
> > > > slight load, the pinion angle is at the center of the range and it feels
> > > > like running a bit smoother. But if you remove the hardtop and therear
> > > > seat, which makes the suspension sit higher, you will notice driveline
> > > > vibes.
>
> > > > Bill Spiliotopoulos,
> > > > '96 XJ,
> > > > '06 TJ.
>
> > > > ? "Mike Romain" <roma...@sympatico.ca> ?????? ??? ??????
> > > >news:46cedfd9$0$5203$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosti ng.com...
> > > >> What 'are' you talking about?
>
> > > >> The front has a double cardan or CV joint already so needs 'no tweaking'
> > > >> at all even for a larger lift and a 2" is not going to change the rear
> > > >> enough to matter.
>
> > > >> You get that much/more change with a load on or off.
>
> > > >> By your reckoning if I put 4 people and gear in my Jeep, it won't drive
> > > >> because my height will be off by at least 2".
>
> > > >> Mike
> > > >> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > >> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile...
> > > >> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> > > >> Jan/06http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
> > > >> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> > > >> Bill Spiliotopoulos wrote:
> > > >>>> 2.) With the 2" spacer lift, would I have to drop the t-case ordo
> > > >>>> any other mods besides slapping it on?
>
> > > >>> Yes.
>
> > > >>> You have to turn the rear axle forward, so that the pinion axis is
> > > >>> almost parallel (a bit lower) to the transfer case output shaft. Or
> > > >>> drop the transfer case 1/2 inch. Turning the rear axle forward will cost
> > > >>> more if you have a shop do it for you (requires either adjustablelower
> > > >>> arms, or elongating the upper arms rear mounting holes and installing an
> > > >>> eccentric washer to set the pinion angle). You may not be sensitive
> > > >>> enough to feel the vibes, but even with 1 inch lift, the pinion angle
> > > >>> gets misaligned, increasing mechanical noise and u-joint wear.
>
> > > >>> You also MUST rotate the front axle towards the rear to make the pinion
> > > >>> axis parallel with the front driveshaft.
> > > >>> This will restore the caster angle to factory specification, which is
> > > >>> very important to limit the occurence of death wobble. The toe-in on
> > > >>> the front axle must be set after the pinion angle is set for the front
> > > >>> axle.
>
> > > >>> The 2" spacer lift and 31" M/T tire combination is a very good
> > > >>> combination. If you disconnect the front sway-bar the off-road
> > > >>> capability of your rig will be dramatically increased compared towhat
> > > >>> it is right now. With the say-bar connected, your on-road behavior will
> > > >>> not be much affected.
> > > >>> This is a picture of a 2006 TJ with 2" spacer lift and 235R15 tires with
> > > >>> the swaay-bar disconnected.
> > > >>>http://alma-tech.com/tmp/tj_flex.jpg
>
> > > >>> But you must find a shop that is willing to deal with all the "minor"
> > > >>> details required to make the car run comfortable and safe as it was
> > > >>> prior to the lift (fine tune the pinion angles).
>
> > > >>> Bill Spiliotopoulos,
> > > >>> '96 XJ
> > > >>> '06 TJ.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > OK everybody.....new scenario.
>
> > I have found a lift kit that contains the following. Let me know what
> > you think of this kit vs. the kit with the 2.25" coil spacers, new
> > shocks, and my stock springs. Just for reminders, I have a 2006
> > Wrangler X with 6 speed manual, A/C, and 3.07 gears. I now have 31 X
> > 10.5 X 15 tires on my stock rims.
>
> > The new kit that I have found is this:
> > 1.) Rubicon springs (front and rear) that are 1" longer than my stock
> > springs
> > 2.) 2" coil spacers for front and rear
> > 3.) A 1.25" t-case drop kit made by Daystar
> > 4.) Four shocks that are rated for a 2-3" lift
>
> > This will give me a total lift of 3". Do I need to worry about a rear
> > track bar relocation bracket or getting a new CV driveshaft/SYE kit
> > with this type of setup? Anything else I should know with this type
> > of setup? And lastly, will 31s look too small with this type of lift
> > setup? Feel free to give me any other information that you can think
> > of regarding this lift vs. the original lift I was thinking of (the
> > one that was going to use my stock springs).
>
> > THANKS- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Mike and Bill --
>
> You both have VERY good points and I am grateful for the information
> that you've provided to me. I am just really new to this and don't
> want to have to do this lift 5 times over to get the results that I
> want.
>
> So on that note.....TW
> The instructions that you gave a couple of posts above (#1-#6).....I
> assume that this is good for the 2.25" spacers as well.....not just
> for 2" spacers? (I am assuming that 1/4 inch would not make much
> difference, but with stuff like this, it wouldn't surprise me if it
> did make a difference).
>
> Mike....
> If I just do the 2.25" spacer lift like you are suggesting, would a 1"
> body lift in the future cause any headaches in the future as far as
> the installation goes? I have heard some body lift kits are not
> compatible with jeeps that have A/C.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Bill/Mike/TW --

That's what I thought. I didn't think there was a difference in the
height either. In order to save myself all the headaches (and you
poor guys as well :D), I have decided to go with a 2.25" coil spacer
lift with the new shocks and my stock springs. I will most likely add
a 1" body lift for 32" tire clearance in the future. Which will still
give me roughly 5.5" of lift (with the 32s). And that's close enough
to what I wanted overall anyway (I wanted 6" of lift overall, but will
settle for 5.5").

Someone mentioned that when you get over 2" of suspension lift (Mike I
think this was you), that you start to have all sorts of headaches.
Not to sound silly, but will the 2.25" spacer vs. the 2" spacer make
much difference in the way of potential headaches associated with
driveshaft, adjustable control arms, etc.?

Tracie

On Aug 27, 11:00 am, Tracie <brain...@upstate.edu> wrote:
> On Aug 27, 10:47 am, Tracie <brain...@upstate.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 27, 10:30 am, Tracie <brain...@upstate.edu> wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 27, 8:25 am, "Bill Spiliotopoulos" <vsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > A correction,
> > > > Caster angles should be positive (7 degrees), not negative.
>
> > > > Ï "Bill Spiliotopoulos" <vsp...@yahoo.com> Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìánews:faudc7$e95$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr...
>
> > > > >I have to remind you that the TJ has a coil sprung suspension withupper
> > > > >and lower arms, which alter the pinion angle when it is raised - lowered,
> > > > >unlike the leaf sprung suspensions which keep the pinion angle constant.
>
> > > > > Raising 2" does create driveline vibes because the rear pinion isno
> > > > > longer parallel to the transfer case output shaft.
> > > > > You can chose to ignore them or may not notice they are there, but the
> > > > > truth is that they exist.
> > > > > I have seen TJ of friends of mine that said they didn't have any driveline
> > > > > vibes after a 2" lift, but when I drove their rig I could feel the
> > > > > difference. With a mismatch in pinion - output shaft angle, it feels like
> > > > > the engine is running rough and they blame the engine or the exhaust. The
> > > > > only way to convince them was to drop their thansfer case 1/2 inch and ask
> > > > > them if they cound feel the difference, which they could.
>
> > > > > Yes, the TJ has a double cardan joint in the transfer case front end,
> > > > > which requires the pinion angle to be set almost parallel to the
> > > > > driveshaft (0.5 degrees lower). You won't notice driveline vibes when in
> > > > > 2wd mode though. But the front pinion angle also affects the front caster
> > > > > angle.
> > > > > By raising 2" in the TJ, the caster increases from -7 degrees to about -5.
> > > > > The front pinion also gets 2 degrees higher than the driveshaft. By
> > > > > re-adjusting the front pinion angle, you fix the caster angle also. When
> > > > > the front pinion is adjusted properly, you loose only 0.3 degreesof
> > > > > caster angle for the 2" lift compared to the factory caster setting.
>
> > > > > Now I speak all this from personal experience on the exact same vehicle as
> > > > > the O.P., as I have installed the same lift on my TJ and setting the
> > > > > pinion angles was what made it to ride smooth like stock again.
>
> > > > > About adding cargo and upsetting the rear driveline angle to create vibes,
> > > > > this is what happens in the TJ.
> > > > > There is a range that the pinion angle may be off, which doesn't create
> > > > > noticeable vibes. The rear pinion is set to the upper side of this range.
> > > > > When you load the TJ and the suspension its lower, the rear pinion will
> > > > > operate to the lower side of the range, and you won't get any vibes. With
> > > > > slight load, the pinion angle is at the center of the range and it feels
> > > > > like running a bit smoother. But if you remove the hardtop and the rear
> > > > > seat, which makes the suspension sit higher, you will notice driveline
> > > > > vibes.
>
> > > > > Bill Spiliotopoulos,
> > > > > '96 XJ,
> > > > > '06 TJ.
>
> > > > > ? "Mike Romain" <roma...@sympatico.ca> ?????? ??? ??????
> > > > >news:46cedfd9$0$5203$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosti ng.com...
> > > > >> What 'are' you talking about?
>
> > > > >> The front has a double cardan or CV joint already so needs 'no tweaking'
> > > > >> at all even for a larger lift and a 2" is not going to change the rear
> > > > >> enough to matter.
>
> > > > >> You get that much/more change with a load on or off.
>
> > > > >> By your reckoning if I put 4 people and gear in my Jeep, it won't drive
> > > > >> because my height will be off by at least 2".
>
> > > > >> Mike
> > > > >> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > >> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile...
> > > > >> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> > > > >> Jan/06http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
> > > > >> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> > > > >> Bill Spiliotopoulos wrote:
> > > > >>>> 2.) With the 2" spacer lift, would I have to drop the t-case or do
> > > > >>>> any other mods besides slapping it on?
>
> > > > >>> Yes.
>
> > > > >>> You have to turn the rear axle forward, so that the pinion axisis
> > > > >>> almost parallel (a bit lower) to the transfer case output shaft.. Or
> > > > >>> drop the transfer case 1/2 inch. Turning the rear axle forward will cost
> > > > >>> more if you have a shop do it for you (requires either adjustable lower
> > > > >>> arms, or elongating the upper arms rear mounting holes and installing an
> > > > >>> eccentric washer to set the pinion angle). You may not be sensitive
> > > > >>> enough to feel the vibes, but even with 1 inch lift, the pinionangle
> > > > >>> gets misaligned, increasing mechanical noise and u-joint wear.
>
> > > > >>> You also MUST rotate the front axle towards the rear to make the pinion
> > > > >>> axis parallel with the front driveshaft.
> > > > >>> This will restore the caster angle to factory specification, which is
> > > > >>> very important to limit the occurence of death wobble. The toe-in on
> > > > >>> the front axle must be set after the pinion angle is set for the front
> > > > >>> axle.
>
> > > > >>> The 2" spacer lift and 31" M/T tire combination is a very good
> > > > >>> combination. If you disconnect the front sway-bar the off-road
> > > > >>> capability of your rig will be dramatically increased compared to what
> > > > >>> it is right now. With the say-bar connected, your on-road behavior will
> > > > >>> not be much affected.
> > > > >>> This is a picture of a 2006 TJ with 2" spacer lift and 235R15 tires with
> > > > >>> the swaay-bar disconnected.
> > > > >>>http://alma-tech.com/tmp/tj_flex.jpg
>
> > > > >>> But you must find a shop that is willing to deal with all the "minor"
> > > > >>> details required to make the car run comfortable and safe as itwas
> > > > >>> prior to the lift (fine tune the pinion angles).
>
> > > > >>> Bill Spiliotopoulos,
> > > > >>> '96 XJ
> > > > >>> '06 TJ.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > OK everybody.....new scenario.
>
> > > I have found a lift kit that contains the following. Let me know what
> > > you think of this kit vs. the kit with the 2.25" coil spacers, new
> > > shocks, and my stock springs. Just for reminders, I have a 2006
> > > Wrangler X with 6 speed manual, A/C, and 3.07 gears. I now have 31 X
> > > 10.5 X 15 tires on my stock rims.
>
> > > The new kit that I have found is this:
> > > 1.) Rubicon springs (front and rear) that are 1" longer than my stock
> > > springs
> > > 2.) 2" coil spacers for front and rear
> > > 3.) A 1.25" t-case drop kit made by Daystar
> > > 4.) Four shocks that are rated for a 2-3" lift
>
> > > This will give me a total lift of 3". Do I need to worry about a rear
> > > track bar relocation bracket or getting a new CV driveshaft/SYE kit
> > > with this type of setup? Anything else I should know with this type
> > > of setup? And lastly, will 31s look too small with this type of lift
> > > setup? Feel free to give me any other information that you can think
> > > of regarding this lift vs. the original lift I was thinking of (the
> > > one that was going to use my stock springs).
>
> > > THANKS- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Mike and Bill --
>
> > You both have VERY good points and I am grateful for the information
> > that you've provided to me. I am just really new to this and don't
> > want to have to do this lift 5 times over to get the results that I
> > want.
>
> > So on that note.....TW
> > The instructions that you gave a couple of posts above (#1-#6).....I
> > assume that this is good for the 2.25" spacers as well.....not just
> > for 2" spacers? (I am assuming that 1/4 inch would not make much
> > difference, but with stuff like this, it wouldn't surprise me if it
> > did make a difference).
>
> > Mike....
> > If I just do the 2.25" spacer lift like you are suggesting, would a 1"
> > body lift in the future cause any headaches in the future as far as
> > the installation goes? I have heard some body lift kits are not
> > compatible with jeeps that have A/C.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Bill/Mike/TW --
>
> That's what I thought. I didn't think there was a difference in the
> height either. In order to save myself all the headaches (and you
> poor guys as well :D), I have decided to go with a 2.25" coil spacer
> lift with the new shocks and my stock springs. I will most likely add
> a 1" body lift for 32" tire clearance in the future. Which will still
> give me roughly 5.5" of lift (with the 32s). And that's close enough
> to what I wanted overall anyway (I wanted 6" of lift overall, but will
> settle for 5.5").
>
> Someone mentioned that when you get over 2" of suspension lift (Mike I
> think this was you), that you start to have all sorts of headaches.
> Not to sound silly, but will the 2.25" spacer vs. the 2" spacer make
> much difference in the way of potential headaches associated with
> driveshaft, adjustable control arms, etc.?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

And TW....

You stated that with a 2" inch suspension lift you do NOT need to
relocate the front or rear track bar. Same question....does the 2.25"
spacer vs. the 2" spacer change that?

Tracie

On Aug 27, 11:00 am, Tracie <brain...@upstate.edu> wrote:
> On Aug 27, 10:47 am, Tracie <brain...@upstate.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 27, 10:30 am, Tracie <brain...@upstate.edu> wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 27, 8:25 am, "Bill Spiliotopoulos" <vsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > A correction,
> > > > Caster angles should be positive (7 degrees), not negative.
>
> > > > Ï "Bill Spiliotopoulos" <vsp...@yahoo.com> Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìánews:faudc7$e95$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr...
>
> > > > >I have to remind you that the TJ has a coil sprung suspension withupper
> > > > >and lower arms, which alter the pinion angle when it is raised - lowered,
> > > > >unlike the leaf sprung suspensions which keep the pinion angle constant.
>
> > > > > Raising 2" does create driveline vibes because the rear pinion isno
> > > > > longer parallel to the transfer case output shaft.
> > > > > You can chose to ignore them or may not notice they are there, but the
> > > > > truth is that they exist.
> > > > > I have seen TJ of friends of mine that said they didn't have any driveline
> > > > > vibes after a 2" lift, but when I drove their rig I could feel the
> > > > > difference. With a mismatch in pinion - output shaft angle, it feels like
> > > > > the engine is running rough and they blame the engine or the exhaust. The
> > > > > only way to convince them was to drop their thansfer case 1/2 inch and ask
> > > > > them if they cound feel the difference, which they could.
>
> > > > > Yes, the TJ has a double cardan joint in the transfer case front end,
> > > > > which requires the pinion angle to be set almost parallel to the
> > > > > driveshaft (0.5 degrees lower). You won't notice driveline vibes when in
> > > > > 2wd mode though. But the front pinion angle also affects the front caster
> > > > > angle.
> > > > > By raising 2" in the TJ, the caster increases from -7 degrees to about -5.
> > > > > The front pinion also gets 2 degrees higher than the driveshaft. By
> > > > > re-adjusting the front pinion angle, you fix the caster angle also. When
> > > > > the front pinion is adjusted properly, you loose only 0.3 degreesof
> > > > > caster angle for the 2" lift compared to the factory caster setting.
>
> > > > > Now I speak all this from personal experience on the exact same vehicle as
> > > > > the O.P., as I have installed the same lift on my TJ and setting the
> > > > > pinion angles was what made it to ride smooth like stock again.
>
> > > > > About adding cargo and upsetting the rear driveline angle to create vibes,
> > > > > this is what happens in the TJ.
> > > > > There is a range that the pinion angle may be off, which doesn't create
> > > > > noticeable vibes. The rear pinion is set to the upper side of this range.
> > > > > When you load the TJ and the suspension its lower, the rear pinion will
> > > > > operate to the lower side of the range, and you won't get any vibes. With
> > > > > slight load, the pinion angle is at the center of the range and it feels
> > > > > like running a bit smoother. But if you remove the hardtop and the rear
> > > > > seat, which makes the suspension sit higher, you will notice driveline
> > > > > vibes.
>
> > > > > Bill Spiliotopoulos,
> > > > > '96 XJ,
> > > > > '06 TJ.
>
> > > > > ? "Mike Romain" <roma...@sympatico.ca> ?????? ??? ??????
> > > > >news:46cedfd9$0$5203$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosti ng.com...
> > > > >> What 'are' you talking about?
>
> > > > >> The front has a double cardan or CV joint already so needs 'no tweaking'
> > > > >> at all even for a larger lift and a 2" is not going to change the rear
> > > > >> enough to matter.
>
> > > > >> You get that much/more change with a load on or off.
>
> > > > >> By your reckoning if I put 4 people and gear in my Jeep, it won't drive
> > > > >> because my height will be off by at least 2".
>
> > > > >> Mike
> > > > >> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > >> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile...
> > > > >> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> > > > >> Jan/06http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
> > > > >> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> > > > >> Bill Spiliotopoulos wrote:
> > > > >>>> 2.) With the 2" spacer lift, would I have to drop the t-case or do
> > > > >>>> any other mods besides slapping it on?
>
> > > > >>> Yes.
>
> > > > >>> You have to turn the rear axle forward, so that the pinion axisis
> > > > >>> almost parallel (a bit lower) to the transfer case output shaft.. Or
> > > > >>> drop the transfer case 1/2 inch. Turning the rear axle forward will cost
> > > > >>> more if you have a shop do it for you (requires either adjustable lower
> > > > >>> arms, or elongating the upper arms rear mounting holes and installing an
> > > > >>> eccentric washer to set the pinion angle). You may not be sensitive
> > > > >>> enough to feel the vibes, but even with 1 inch lift, the pinionangle
> > > > >>> gets misaligned, increasing mechanical noise and u-joint wear.
>
> > > > >>> You also MUST rotate the front axle towards the rear to make the pinion
> > > > >>> axis parallel with the front driveshaft.
> > > > >>> This will restore the caster angle to factory specification, which is
> > > > >>> very important to limit the occurence of death wobble. The toe-in on
> > > > >>> the front axle must be set after the pinion angle is set for the front
> > > > >>> axle.
>
> > > > >>> The 2" spacer lift and 31" M/T tire combination is a very good
> > > > >>> combination. If you disconnect the front sway-bar the off-road
> > > > >>> capability of your rig will be dramatically increased compared to what
> > > > >>> it is right now. With the say-bar connected, your on-road behavior will
> > > > >>> not be much affected.
> > > > >>> This is a picture of a 2006 TJ with 2" spacer lift and 235R15 tires with
> > > > >>> the swaay-bar disconnected.
> > > > >>>http://alma-tech.com/tmp/tj_flex.jpg
>
> > > > >>> But you must find a shop that is willing to deal with all the "minor"
> > > > >>> details required to make the car run comfortable and safe as itwas
> > > > >>> prior to the lift (fine tune the pinion angles).
>
> > > > >>> Bill Spiliotopoulos,
> > > > >>> '96 XJ
> > > > >>> '06 TJ.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > OK everybody.....new scenario.
>
> > > I have found a lift kit that contains the following. Let me know what
> > > you think of this kit vs. the kit with the 2.25" coil spacers, new
> > > shocks, and my stock springs. Just for reminders, I have a 2006
> > > Wrangler X with 6 speed manual, A/C, and 3.07 gears. I now have 31 X
> > > 10.5 X 15 tires on my stock rims.
>
> > > The new kit that I have found is this:
> > > 1.) Rubicon springs (front and rear) that are 1" longer than my stock
> > > springs
> > > 2.) 2" coil spacers for front and rear
> > > 3.) A 1.25" t-case drop kit made by Daystar
> > > 4.) Four shocks that are rated for a 2-3" lift
>
> > > This will give me a total lift of 3". Do I need to worry about a rear
> > > track bar relocation bracket or getting a new CV driveshaft/SYE kit
> > > with this type of setup? Anything else I should know with this type
> > > of setup? And lastly, will 31s look too small with this type of lift
> > > setup? Feel free to give me any other information that you can think
> > > of regarding this lift vs. the original lift I was thinking of (the
> > > one that was going to use my stock springs).
>
> > > THANKS- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Mike and Bill --
>
> > You both have VERY good points and I am grateful for the information
> > that you've provided to me. I am just really new to this and don't
> > want to have to do this lift 5 times over to get the results that I
> > want.
>
> > So on that note.....TW
> > The instructions that you gave a couple of posts above (#1-#6).....I
> > assume that this is good for the 2.25" spacers as well.....not just
> > for 2" spacers? (I am assuming that 1/4 inch would not make much
> > difference, but with stuff like this, it wouldn't surprise me if it
> > did make a difference).
>
> > Mike....
> > If I just do the 2.25" spacer lift like you are suggesting, would a 1"
> > body lift in the future cause any headaches in the future as far as
> > the installation goes? I have heard some body lift kits are not
> > compatible with jeeps that have A/C.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Bill/Mike/TW --
>
> That's what I thought. I didn't think there was a difference in the
> height either. In order to save myself all the headaches (and you
> poor guys as well :D), I have decided to go with a 2.25" coil spacer
> lift with the new shocks and my stock springs. I will most likely add
> a 1" body lift for 32" tire clearance in the future. Which will still
> give me roughly 5.5" of lift (with the 32s). And that's close enough
> to what I wanted overall anyway (I wanted 6" of lift overall, but will
> settle for 5.5").
>
> Someone mentioned that when you get over 2" of suspension lift (Mike I
> think this was you), that you start to have all sorts of headaches.
> Not to sound silly, but will the 2.25" spacer vs. the 2" spacer make
> much difference in the way of potential headaches associated with
> driveshaft, adjustable control arms, etc.?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

And TW....

You stated that with a 2" inch suspension lift you do NOT need to
relocate the front or rear track bar. Same question....does the 2.25"
spacer vs. the 2" spacer change that?

Tracie

On Aug 27, 11:00 am, Tracie <brain...@upstate.edu> wrote:
> On Aug 27, 10:47 am, Tracie <brain...@upstate.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 27, 10:30 am, Tracie <brain...@upstate.edu> wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 27, 8:25 am, "Bill Spiliotopoulos" <vsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > A correction,
> > > > Caster angles should be positive (7 degrees), not negative.
>
> > > > Ï "Bill Spiliotopoulos" <vsp...@yahoo.com> Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìánews:faudc7$e95$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr...
>
> > > > >I have to remind you that the TJ has a coil sprung suspension withupper
> > > > >and lower arms, which alter the pinion angle when it is raised - lowered,
> > > > >unlike the leaf sprung suspensions which keep the pinion angle constant.
>
> > > > > Raising 2" does create driveline vibes because the rear pinion isno
> > > > > longer parallel to the transfer case output shaft.
> > > > > You can chose to ignore them or may not notice they are there, but the
> > > > > truth is that they exist.
> > > > > I have seen TJ of friends of mine that said they didn't have any driveline
> > > > > vibes after a 2" lift, but when I drove their rig I could feel the
> > > > > difference. With a mismatch in pinion - output shaft angle, it feels like
> > > > > the engine is running rough and they blame the engine or the exhaust. The
> > > > > only way to convince them was to drop their thansfer case 1/2 inch and ask
> > > > > them if they cound feel the difference, which they could.
>
> > > > > Yes, the TJ has a double cardan joint in the transfer case front end,
> > > > > which requires the pinion angle to be set almost parallel to the
> > > > > driveshaft (0.5 degrees lower). You won't notice driveline vibes when in
> > > > > 2wd mode though. But the front pinion angle also affects the front caster
> > > > > angle.
> > > > > By raising 2" in the TJ, the caster increases from -7 degrees to about -5.
> > > > > The front pinion also gets 2 degrees higher than the driveshaft. By
> > > > > re-adjusting the front pinion angle, you fix the caster angle also. When
> > > > > the front pinion is adjusted properly, you loose only 0.3 degreesof
> > > > > caster angle for the 2" lift compared to the factory caster setting.
>
> > > > > Now I speak all this from personal experience on the exact same vehicle as
> > > > > the O.P., as I have installed the same lift on my TJ and setting the
> > > > > pinion angles was what made it to ride smooth like stock again.
>
> > > > > About adding cargo and upsetting the rear driveline angle to create vibes,
> > > > > this is what happens in the TJ.
> > > > > There is a range that the pinion angle may be off, which doesn't create
> > > > > noticeable vibes. The rear pinion is set to the upper side of this range.
> > > > > When you load the TJ and the suspension its lower, the rear pinion will
> > > > > operate to the lower side of the range, and you won't get any vibes. With
> > > > > slight load, the pinion angle is at the center of the range and it feels
> > > > > like running a bit smoother. But if you remove the hardtop and the rear
> > > > > seat, which makes the suspension sit higher, you will notice driveline
> > > > > vibes.
>
> > > > > Bill Spiliotopoulos,
> > > > > '96 XJ,
> > > > > '06 TJ.
>
> > > > > ? "Mike Romain" <roma...@sympatico.ca> ?????? ??? ??????
> > > > >news:46cedfd9$0$5203$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosti ng.com...
> > > > >> What 'are' you talking about?
>
> > > > >> The front has a double cardan or CV joint already so needs 'no tweaking'
> > > > >> at all even for a larger lift and a 2" is not going to change the rear
> > > > >> enough to matter.
>
> > > > >> You get that much/more change with a load on or off.
>
> > > > >> By your reckoning if I put 4 people and gear in my Jeep, it won't drive
> > > > >> because my height will be off by at least 2".
>
> > > > >> Mike
> > > > >> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > >> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile...
> > > > >> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> > > > >> Jan/06http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
> > > > >> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> > > > >> Bill Spiliotopoulos wrote:
> > > > >>>> 2.) With the 2" spacer lift, would I have to drop the t-case or do
> > > > >>>> any other mods besides slapping it on?
>
> > > > >>> Yes.
>
> > > > >>> You have to turn the rear axle forward, so that the pinion axisis
> > > > >>> almost parallel (a bit lower) to the transfer case output shaft.. Or
> > > > >>> drop the transfer case 1/2 inch. Turning the rear axle forward will cost
> > > > >>> more if you have a shop do it for you (requires either adjustable lower
> > > > >>> arms, or elongating the upper arms rear mounting holes and installing an
> > > > >>> eccentric washer to set the pinion angle). You may not be sensitive
> > > > >>> enough to feel the vibes, but even with 1 inch lift, the pinionangle
> > > > >>> gets misaligned, increasing mechanical noise and u-joint wear.
>
> > > > >>> You also MUST rotate the front axle towards the rear to make the pinion
> > > > >>> axis parallel with the front driveshaft.
> > > > >>> This will restore the caster angle to factory specification, which is
> > > > >>> very important to limit the occurence of death wobble. The toe-in on
> > > > >>> the front axle must be set after the pinion angle is set for the front
> > > > >>> axle.
>
> > > > >>> The 2" spacer lift and 31" M/T tire combination is a very good
> > > > >>> combination. If you disconnect the front sway-bar the off-road
> > > > >>> capability of your rig will be dramatically increased compared to what
> > > > >>> it is right now. With the say-bar connected, your on-road behavior will
> > > > >>> not be much affected.
> > > > >>> This is a picture of a 2006 TJ with 2" spacer lift and 235R15 tires with
> > > > >>> the swaay-bar disconnected.
> > > > >>>http://alma-tech.com/tmp/tj_flex.jpg
>
> > > > >>> But you must find a shop that is willing to deal with all the "minor"
> > > > >>> details required to make the car run comfortable and safe as itwas
> > > > >>> prior to the lift (fine tune the pinion angles).
>
> > > > >>> Bill Spiliotopoulos,
> > > > >>> '96 XJ
> > > > >>> '06 TJ.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > OK everybody.....new scenario.
>
> > > I have found a lift kit that contains the following. Let me know what
> > > you think of this kit vs. the kit with the 2.25" coil spacers, new
> > > shocks, and my stock springs. Just for reminders, I have a 2006
> > > Wrangler X with 6 speed manual, A/C, and 3.07 gears. I now have 31 X
> > > 10.5 X 15 tires on my stock rims.
>
> > > The new kit that I have found is this:
> > > 1.) Rubicon springs (front and rear) that are 1" longer than my stock
> > > springs
> > > 2.) 2" coil spacers for front and rear
> > > 3.) A 1.25" t-case drop kit made by Daystar
> > > 4.) Four shocks that are rated for a 2-3" lift
>
> > > This will give me a total lift of 3". Do I need to worry about a rear
> > > track bar relocation bracket or getting a new CV driveshaft/SYE kit
> > > with this type of setup? Anything else I should know with this type
> > > of setup? And lastly, will 31s look too small with this type of lift
> > > setup? Feel free to give me any other information that you can think
> > > of regarding this lift vs. the original lift I was thinking of (the
> > > one that was going to use my stock springs).
>
> > > THANKS- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Mike and Bill --
>
> > You both have VERY good points and I am grateful for the information
> > that you've provided to me. I am just really new to this and don't
> > want to have to do this lift 5 times over to get the results that I
> > want.
>
> > So on that note.....TW
> > The instructions that you gave a couple of posts above (#1-#6).....I
> > assume that this is good for the 2.25" spacers as well.....not just
> > for 2" spacers? (I am assuming that 1/4 inch would not make much
> > difference, but with stuff like this, it wouldn't surprise me if it
> > did make a difference).
>
> > Mike....
> > If I just do the 2.25" spacer lift like you are suggesting, would a 1"
> > body lift in the future cause any headaches in the future as far as
> > the installation goes? I have heard some body lift kits are not
> > compatible with jeeps that have A/C.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Bill/Mike/TW --
>
> That's what I thought. I didn't think there was a difference in the
> height either. In order to save myself all the headaches (and you
> poor guys as well :D), I have decided to go with a 2.25" coil spacer
> lift with the new shocks and my stock springs. I will most likely add
> a 1" body lift for 32" tire clearance in the future. Which will still
> give me roughly 5.5" of lift (with the 32s). And that's close enough
> to what I wanted overall anyway (I wanted 6" of lift overall, but will
> settle for 5.5").
>
> Someone mentioned that when you get over 2" of suspension lift (Mike I
> think this was you), that you start to have all sorts of headaches.
> Not to sound silly, but will the 2.25" spacer vs. the 2" spacer make
> much difference in the way of potential headaches associated with
> driveshaft, adjustable control arms, etc.?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

And TW....

You stated that with a 2" inch suspension lift you do NOT need to
relocate the front or rear track bar. Same question....does the 2.25"
spacer vs. the 2" spacer change that?

Tracie

On Aug 27, 11:00 am, Tracie <brain...@upstate.edu> wrote:
> On Aug 27, 10:47 am, Tracie <brain...@upstate.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 27, 10:30 am, Tracie <brain...@upstate.edu> wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 27, 8:25 am, "Bill Spiliotopoulos" <vsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > A correction,
> > > > Caster angles should be positive (7 degrees), not negative.
>
> > > > Ï "Bill Spiliotopoulos" <vsp...@yahoo.com> Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìánews:faudc7$e95$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr...
>
> > > > >I have to remind you that the TJ has a coil sprung suspension withupper
> > > > >and lower arms, which alter the pinion angle when it is raised - lowered,
> > > > >unlike the leaf sprung suspensions which keep the pinion angle constant.
>
> > > > > Raising 2" does create driveline vibes because the rear pinion isno
> > > > > longer parallel to the transfer case output shaft.
> > > > > You can chose to ignore them or may not notice they are there, but the
> > > > > truth is that they exist.
> > > > > I have seen TJ of friends of mine that said they didn't have any driveline
> > > > > vibes after a 2" lift, but when I drove their rig I could feel the
> > > > > difference. With a mismatch in pinion - output shaft angle, it feels like
> > > > > the engine is running rough and they blame the engine or the exhaust. The
> > > > > only way to convince them was to drop their thansfer case 1/2 inch and ask
> > > > > them if they cound feel the difference, which they could.
>
> > > > > Yes, the TJ has a double cardan joint in the transfer case front end,
> > > > > which requires the pinion angle to be set almost parallel to the
> > > > > driveshaft (0.5 degrees lower). You won't notice driveline vibes when in
> > > > > 2wd mode though. But the front pinion angle also affects the front caster
> > > > > angle.
> > > > > By raising 2" in the TJ, the caster increases from -7 degrees to about -5.
> > > > > The front pinion also gets 2 degrees higher than the driveshaft. By
> > > > > re-adjusting the front pinion angle, you fix the caster angle also. When
> > > > > the front pinion is adjusted properly, you loose only 0.3 degreesof
> > > > > caster angle for the 2" lift compared to the factory caster setting.
>
> > > > > Now I speak all this from personal experience on the exact same vehicle as
> > > > > the O.P., as I have installed the same lift on my TJ and setting the
> > > > > pinion angles was what made it to ride smooth like stock again.
>
> > > > > About adding cargo and upsetting the rear driveline angle to create vibes,
> > > > > this is what happens in the TJ.
> > > > > There is a range that the pinion angle may be off, which doesn't create
> > > > > noticeable vibes. The rear pinion is set to the upper side of this range.
> > > > > When you load the TJ and the suspension its lower, the rear pinion will
> > > > > operate to the lower side of the range, and you won't get any vibes. With
> > > > > slight load, the pinion angle is at the center of the range and it feels
> > > > > like running a bit smoother. But if you remove the hardtop and the rear
> > > > > seat, which makes the suspension sit higher, you will notice driveline
> > > > > vibes.
>
> > > > > Bill Spiliotopoulos,
> > > > > '96 XJ,
> > > > > '06 TJ.
>
> > > > > ? "Mike Romain" <roma...@sympatico.ca> ?????? ??? ??????
> > > > >news:46cedfd9$0$5203$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosti ng.com...
> > > > >> What 'are' you talking about?
>
> > > > >> The front has a double cardan or CV joint already so needs 'no tweaking'
> > > > >> at all even for a larger lift and a 2" is not going to change the rear
> > > > >> enough to matter.
>
> > > > >> You get that much/more change with a load on or off.
>
> > > > >> By your reckoning if I put 4 people and gear in my Jeep, it won't drive
> > > > >> because my height will be off by at least 2".
>
> > > > >> Mike
> > > > >> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > >> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile...
> > > > >> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> > > > >> Jan/06http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
> > > > >> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> > > > >> Bill Spiliotopoulos wrote:
> > > > >>>> 2.) With the 2" spacer lift, would I have to drop the t-case or do
> > > > >>>> any other mods besides slapping it on?
>
> > > > >>> Yes.
>
> > > > >>> You have to turn the rear axle forward, so that the pinion axisis
> > > > >>> almost parallel (a bit lower) to the transfer case output shaft.. Or
> > > > >>> drop the transfer case 1/2 inch. Turning the rear axle forward will cost
> > > > >>> more if you have a shop do it for you (requires either adjustable lower
> > > > >>> arms, or elongating the upper arms rear mounting holes and installing an
> > > > >>> eccentric washer to set the pinion angle). You may not be sensitive
> > > > >>> enough to feel the vibes, but even with 1 inch lift, the pinionangle
> > > > >>> gets misaligned, increasing mechanical noise and u-joint wear.
>
> > > > >>> You also MUST rotate the front axle towards the rear to make the pinion
> > > > >>> axis parallel with the front driveshaft.
> > > > >>> This will restore the caster angle to factory specification, which is
> > > > >>> very important to limit the occurence of death wobble. The toe-in on
> > > > >>> the front axle must be set after the pinion angle is set for the front
> > > > >>> axle.
>
> > > > >>> The 2" spacer lift and 31" M/T tire combination is a very good
> > > > >>> combination. If you disconnect the front sway-bar the off-road
> > > > >>> capability of your rig will be dramatically increased compared to what
> > > > >>> it is right now. With the say-bar connected, your on-road behavior will
> > > > >>> not be much affected.
> > > > >>> This is a picture of a 2006 TJ with 2" spacer lift and 235R15 tires with
> > > > >>> the swaay-bar disconnected.
> > > > >>>http://alma-tech.com/tmp/tj_flex.jpg
>
> > > > >>> But you must find a shop that is willing to deal with all the "minor"
> > > > >>> details required to make the car run comfortable and safe as itwas
> > > > >>> prior to the lift (fine tune the pinion angles).
>
> > > > >>> Bill Spiliotopoulos,
> > > > >>> '96 XJ
> > > > >>> '06 TJ.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > OK everybody.....new scenario.
>
> > > I have found a lift kit that contains the following. Let me know what
> > > you think of this kit vs. the kit with the 2.25" coil spacers, new
> > > shocks, and my stock springs. Just for reminders, I have a 2006
> > > Wrangler X with 6 speed manual, A/C, and 3.07 gears. I now have 31 X
> > > 10.5 X 15 tires on my stock rims.
>
> > > The new kit that I have found is this:
> > > 1.) Rubicon springs (front and rear) that are 1" longer than my stock
> > > springs
> > > 2.) 2" coil spacers for front and rear
> > > 3.) A 1.25" t-case drop kit made by Daystar
> > > 4.) Four shocks that are rated for a 2-3" lift
>
> > > This will give me a total lift of 3". Do I need to worry about a rear
> > > track bar relocation bracket or getting a new CV driveshaft/SYE kit
> > > with this type of setup? Anything else I should know with this type
> > > of setup? And lastly, will 31s look too small with this type of lift
> > > setup? Feel free to give me any other information that you can think
> > > of regarding this lift vs. the original lift I was thinking of (the
> > > one that was going to use my stock springs).
>
> > > THANKS- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Mike and Bill --
>
> > You both have VERY good points and I am grateful for the information
> > that you've provided to me. I am just really new to this and don't
> > want to have to do this lift 5 times over to get the results that I
> > want.
>
> > So on that note.....TW
> > The instructions that you gave a couple of posts above (#1-#6).....I
> > assume that this is good for the 2.25" spacers as well.....not just
> > for 2" spacers? (I am assuming that 1/4 inch would not make much
> > difference, but with stuff like this, it wouldn't surprise me if it
> > did make a difference).
>
> > Mike....
> > If I just do the 2.25" spacer lift like you are suggesting, would a 1"
> > body lift in the future cause any headaches in the future as far as
> > the installation goes? I have heard some body lift kits are not
> > compatible with jeeps that have A/C.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Bill/Mike/TW --
>
> That's what I thought. I didn't think there was a difference in the
> height either. In order to save myself all the headaches (and you
> poor guys as well :D), I have decided to go with a 2.25" coil spacer
> lift with the new shocks and my stock springs. I will most likely add
> a 1" body lift for 32" tire clearance in the future. Which will still
> give me roughly 5.5" of lift (with the 32s). And that's close enough
> to what I wanted overall anyway (I wanted 6" of lift overall, but will
> settle for 5.5").
>
> Someone mentioned that when you get over 2" of suspension lift (Mike I
> think this was you), that you start to have all sorts of headaches.
> Not to sound silly, but will the 2.25" spacer vs. the 2" spacer make
> much difference in the way of potential headaches associated with
> driveshaft, adjustable control arms, etc.?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

And TW....

You stated that with a 2" inch suspension lift you do NOT need to
relocate the front or rear track bar. Same question....does the 2.25"
spacer vs. the 2" spacer change that?

Tracie

On Aug 27, 11:01 am, Tracie <brain...@upstate.edu> wrote:
> On Aug 27, 11:00 am, Tracie <brain...@upstate.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 27, 10:47 am, Tracie <brain...@upstate.edu> wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 27, 10:30 am, Tracie <brain...@upstate.edu> wrote:
>
> > > > On Aug 27, 8:25 am, "Bill Spiliotopoulos" <vsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > A correction,
> > > > > Caster angles should be positive (7 degrees), not negative.
>
> > > > > Ï "Bill Spiliotopoulos" <vsp...@yahoo.com> Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìánews:faudc7$e95$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr...
>
> > > > > >I have to remind you that the TJ has a coil sprung suspension with upper
> > > > > >and lower arms, which alter the pinion angle when it is raised -lowered,
> > > > > >unlike the leaf sprung suspensions which keep the pinion angle constant.
>
> > > > > > Raising 2" does create driveline vibes because the rear pinion is no
> > > > > > longer parallel to the transfer case output shaft.
> > > > > > You can chose to ignore them or may not notice they are there, but the
> > > > > > truth is that they exist.
> > > > > > I have seen TJ of friends of mine that said they didn't have any driveline
> > > > > > vibes after a 2" lift, but when I drove their rig I could feel the
> > > > > > difference. With a mismatch in pinion - output shaft angle, it feels like
> > > > > > the engine is running rough and they blame the engine or the exhaust. The
> > > > > > only way to convince them was to drop their thansfer case 1/2 inch and ask
> > > > > > them if they cound feel the difference, which they could.
>
> > > > > > Yes, the TJ has a double cardan joint in the transfer case front end,
> > > > > > which requires the pinion angle to be set almost parallel to the
> > > > > > driveshaft (0.5 degrees lower). You won't notice driveline vibes when in
> > > > > > 2wd mode though. But the front pinion angle also affects the front caster
> > > > > > angle.
> > > > > > By raising 2" in the TJ, the caster increases from -7 degrees to about -5.
> > > > > > The front pinion also gets 2 degrees higher than the driveshaft.. By
> > > > > > re-adjusting the front pinion angle, you fix the caster angle also. When
> > > > > > the front pinion is adjusted properly, you loose only 0.3 degrees of
> > > > > > caster angle for the 2" lift compared to the factory caster setting.
>
> > > > > > Now I speak all this from personal experience on the exact samevehicle as
> > > > > > the O.P., as I have installed the same lift on my TJ and setting the
> > > > > > pinion angles was what made it to ride smooth like stock again.
>
> > > > > > About adding cargo and upsetting the rear driveline angle to create vibes,
> > > > > > this is what happens in the TJ.
> > > > > > There is a range that the pinion angle may be off, which doesn't create
> > > > > > noticeable vibes. The rear pinion is set to the upper side of this range.
> > > > > > When you load the TJ and the suspension its lower, the rear pinion will
> > > > > > operate to the lower side of the range, and you won't get any vibes. With
> > > > > > slight load, the pinion angle is at the center of the range andit feels
> > > > > > like running a bit smoother. But if you remove the hardtop andthe rear
> > > > > > seat, which makes the suspension sit higher, you will notice driveline
> > > > > > vibes.
>
> > > > > > Bill Spiliotopoulos,
> > > > > > '96 XJ,
> > > > > > '06 TJ.
>
> > > > > > ? "Mike Romain" <roma...@sympatico.ca> ?????? ??? ??????
> > > > > >news:46cedfd9$0$5203$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosti ng.com...
> > > > > >> What 'are' you talking about?
>
> > > > > >> The front has a double cardan or CV joint already so needs 'notweaking'
> > > > > >> at all even for a larger lift and a 2" is not going to change the rear
> > > > > >> enough to matter.
>
> > > > > >> You get that much/more change with a load on or off.
>
> > > > > >> By your reckoning if I put 4 people and gear in my Jeep, it won't drive
> > > > > >> because my height will be off by at least 2".
>
> > > > > >> Mike
> > > > > >> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > > >> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile...
> > > > > >> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> > > > > >> Jan/06http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
> > > > > >> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> > > > > >> Bill Spiliotopoulos wrote:
> > > > > >>>> 2.) With the 2" spacer lift, would I have to drop the t-case or do
> > > > > >>>> any other mods besides slapping it on?
>
> > > > > >>> Yes.
>
> > > > > >>> You have to turn the rear axle forward, so that the pinion axis is
> > > > > >>> almost parallel (a bit lower) to the transfer case output shaft. Or
> > > > > >>> drop the transfer case 1/2 inch. Turning the rear axle forward will cost
> > > > > >>> more if you have a shop do it for you (requires either adjustable lower
> > > > > >>> arms, or elongating the upper arms rear mounting holes and installing an
> > > > > >>> eccentric washer to set the pinion angle). You may not be sensitive
> > > > > >>> enough to feel the vibes, but even with 1 inch lift, the pinion angle
> > > > > >>> gets misaligned, increasing mechanical noise and u-joint wear.
>
> > > > > >>> You also MUST rotate the front axle towards the rear to make the pinion
> > > > > >>> axis parallel with the front driveshaft.
> > > > > >>> This will restore the caster angle to factory specification, which is
> > > > > >>> very important to limit the occurence of death wobble. The toe-in on
> > > > > >>> the front axle must be set after the pinion angle is set for the front
> > > > > >>> axle.
>
> > > > > >>> The 2" spacer lift and 31" M/T tire combination is a very good
> > > > > >>> combination. If you disconnect the front sway-bar the off-road
> > > > > >>> capability of your rig will be dramatically increased compared to what
> > > > > >>> it is right now. With the say-bar connected, your on-road behavior will
> > > > > >>> not be much affected.
> > > > > >>> This is a picture of a 2006 TJ with 2" spacer lift and 235R15tires with
> > > > > >>> the swaay-bar disconnected.
> > > > > >>>http://alma-tech.com/tmp/tj_flex.jpg
>
> > > > > >>> But you must find a shop that is willing to deal with all the"minor"
> > > > > >>> details required to make the car run comfortable and safe as it was
> > > > > >>> prior to the lift (fine tune the pinion angles).
>
> > > > > >>> Bill Spiliotopoulos,
> > > > > >>> '96 XJ
> > > > > >>> '06 TJ.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > OK everybody.....new scenario.
>
> > > > I have found a lift kit that contains the following. Let me know what
> > > > you think of this kit vs. the kit with the 2.25" coil spacers, new
> > > > shocks, and my stock springs. Just for reminders, I have a 2006
> > > > Wrangler X with 6 speed manual, A/C, and 3.07 gears. I now have 31X
> > > > 10.5 X 15 tires on my stock rims.
>
> > > > The new kit that I have found is this:
> > > > 1.) Rubicon springs (front and rear) that are 1" longer than my stock
> > > > springs
> > > > 2.) 2" coil spacers for front and rear
> > > > 3.) A 1.25" t-case drop kit made by Daystar
> > > > 4.) Four shocks that are rated for a 2-3" lift
>
> > > > This will give me a total lift of 3". Do I need to worry about a rear
> > > > track bar relocation bracket or getting a new CV driveshaft/SYE kit
> > > > with this type of setup? Anything else I should know with this type
> > > > of setup? And lastly, will 31s look too small with this type of lift
> > > > setup? Feel free to give me any other information that you can think
> > > > of regarding this lift vs. the original lift I was thinking of (the
> > > > one that was going to use my stock springs).
>
> > > > THANKS- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Mike and Bill --
>
> > > You both have VERY good points and I am grateful for the information
> > > that you've provided to me. I am just really new to this and don't
> > > want to have to do this lift 5 times over to get the results that I
> > > want.
>
> > > So on that note.....TW
> > > The instructions that you gave a couple of posts above (#1-#6).....I
> > > assume that this is good for the 2.25" spacers as well.....not just
> > > for 2" spacers? (I am assuming that 1/4 inch would not make much
> > > difference, but with stuff like this, it wouldn't surprise me if it
> > > did make a difference).
>
> > > Mike....
> > > If I just do the 2.25" spacer lift like you are suggesting, would a 1"
> > > body lift in the future cause any headaches in the future as far as
> > > the installation goes? I have heard some body lift kits are not
> > > compatible with jeeps that have A/C.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Bill/Mike/TW --
>
> > That's what I thought. I didn't think there was a difference in the
> > height either. In order to save myself all the headaches (and you
> > poor guys as well :D), I have decided to go with a 2.25" coil spacer
> > lift with the new shocks and my stock springs. I will most likely add
> > a 1" body lift for 32" tire clearance in the future. Which will still
> > give me roughly 5.5" of lift (with the 32s). And that's close enough
> > to what I wanted overall anyway (I wanted 6" of lift overall, but will
> > settle for 5.5").
>
> > Someone mentioned that when you get over 2" of suspension lift (Mike I
> > think this was you), that you start to have all sorts of headaches.
> > Not to sound silly, but will the 2.25" spacer vs. the 2" spacer make
> > much difference in the way of potential headaches associated with
> > driveshaft, adjustable control arms, etc.?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> And TW....
>
> You stated that with a 2" inch suspension lift you do NOT need to
> relocate the front or rear track bar. Same question....does the 2.25"
> spacer vs. the 2" spacer change that?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Sorry....one moret thing. What about extended bumpstops? Do I need
them for the front AND rear with the 2.25" spacer lift or just for the
rear?

Tracie

On Aug 27, 11:01 am, Tracie <brain...@upstate.edu> wrote:
> On Aug 27, 11:00 am, Tracie <brain...@upstate.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 27, 10:47 am, Tracie <brain...@upstate.edu> wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 27, 10:30 am, Tracie <brain...@upstate.edu> wrote:
>
> > > > On Aug 27, 8:25 am, "Bill Spiliotopoulos" <vsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > A correction,
> > > > > Caster angles should be positive (7 degrees), not negative.
>
> > > > > Ï "Bill Spiliotopoulos" <vsp...@yahoo.com> Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìánews:faudc7$e95$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr...
>
> > > > > >I have to remind you that the TJ has a coil sprung suspension with upper
> > > > > >and lower arms, which alter the pinion angle when it is raised -lowered,
> > > > > >unlike the leaf sprung suspensions which keep the pinion angle constant.
>
> > > > > > Raising 2" does create driveline vibes because the rear pinion is no
> > > > > > longer parallel to the transfer case output shaft.
> > > > > > You can chose to ignore them or may not notice they are there, but the
> > > > > > truth is that they exist.
> > > > > > I have seen TJ of friends of mine that said they didn't have any driveline
> > > > > > vibes after a 2" lift, but when I drove their rig I could feel the
> > > > > > difference. With a mismatch in pinion - output shaft angle, it feels like
> > > > > > the engine is running rough and they blame the engine or the exhaust. The
> > > > > > only way to convince them was to drop their thansfer case 1/2 inch and ask
> > > > > > them if they cound feel the difference, which they could.
>
> > > > > > Yes, the TJ has a double cardan joint in the transfer case front end,
> > > > > > which requires the pinion angle to be set almost parallel to the
> > > > > > driveshaft (0.5 degrees lower). You won't notice driveline vibes when in
> > > > > > 2wd mode though. But the front pinion angle also affects the front caster
> > > > > > angle.
> > > > > > By raising 2" in the TJ, the caster increases from -7 degrees to about -5.
> > > > > > The front pinion also gets 2 degrees higher than the driveshaft.. By
> > > > > > re-adjusting the front pinion angle, you fix the caster angle also. When
> > > > > > the front pinion is adjusted properly, you loose only 0.3 degrees of
> > > > > > caster angle for the 2" lift compared to the factory caster setting.
>
> > > > > > Now I speak all this from personal experience on the exact samevehicle as
> > > > > > the O.P., as I have installed the same lift on my TJ and setting the
> > > > > > pinion angles was what made it to ride smooth like stock again.
>
> > > > > > About adding cargo and upsetting the rear driveline angle to create vibes,
> > > > > > this is what happens in the TJ.
> > > > > > There is a range that the pinion angle may be off, which doesn't create
> > > > > > noticeable vibes. The rear pinion is set to the upper side of this range.
> > > > > > When you load the TJ and the suspension its lower, the rear pinion will
> > > > > > operate to the lower side of the range, and you won't get any vibes. With
> > > > > > slight load, the pinion angle is at the center of the range andit feels
> > > > > > like running a bit smoother. But if you remove the hardtop andthe rear
> > > > > > seat, which makes the suspension sit higher, you will notice driveline
> > > > > > vibes.
>
> > > > > > Bill Spiliotopoulos,
> > > > > > '96 XJ,
> > > > > > '06 TJ.
>
> > > > > > ? "Mike Romain" <roma...@sympatico.ca> ?????? ??? ??????
> > > > > >news:46cedfd9$0$5203$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosti ng.com...
> > > > > >> What 'are' you talking about?
>
> > > > > >> The front has a double cardan or CV joint already so needs 'notweaking'
> > > > > >> at all even for a larger lift and a 2" is not going to change the rear
> > > > > >> enough to matter.
>
> > > > > >> You get that much/more change with a load on or off.
>
> > > > > >> By your reckoning if I put 4 people and gear in my Jeep, it won't drive
> > > > > >> because my height will be off by at least 2".
>
> > > > > >> Mike
> > > > > >> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > > >> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile...
> > > > > >> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> > > > > >> Jan/06http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
> > > > > >> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> > > > > >> Bill Spiliotopoulos wrote:
> > > > > >>>> 2.) With the 2" spacer lift, would I have to drop the t-case or do
> > > > > >>>> any other mods besides slapping it on?
>
> > > > > >>> Yes.
>
> > > > > >>> You have to turn the rear axle forward, so that the pinion axis is
> > > > > >>> almost parallel (a bit lower) to the transfer case output shaft. Or
> > > > > >>> drop the transfer case 1/2 inch. Turning the rear axle forward will cost
> > > > > >>> more if you have a shop do it for you (requires either adjustable lower
> > > > > >>> arms, or elongating the upper arms rear mounting holes and installing an
> > > > > >>> eccentric washer to set the pinion angle). You may not be sensitive
> > > > > >>> enough to feel the vibes, but even with 1 inch lift, the pinion angle
> > > > > >>> gets misaligned, increasing mechanical noise and u-joint wear.
>
> > > > > >>> You also MUST rotate the front axle towards the rear to make the pinion
> > > > > >>> axis parallel with the front driveshaft.
> > > > > >>> This will restore the caster angle to factory specification, which is
> > > > > >>> very important to limit the occurence of death wobble. The toe-in on
> > > > > >>> the front axle must be set after the pinion angle is set for the front
> > > > > >>> axle.
>
> > > > > >>> The 2" spacer lift and 31" M/T tire combination is a very good
> > > > > >>> combination. If you disconnect the front sway-bar the off-road
> > > > > >>> capability of your rig will be dramatically increased compared to what
> > > > > >>> it is right now. With the say-bar connected, your on-road behavior will
> > > > > >>> not be much affected.
> > > > > >>> This is a picture of a 2006 TJ with 2" spacer lift and 235R15tires with
> > > > > >>> the swaay-bar disconnected.
> > > > > >>>http://alma-tech.com/tmp/tj_flex.jpg
>
> > > > > >>> But you must find a shop that is willing to deal with all the"minor"
> > > > > >>> details required to make the car run comfortable and safe as it was
> > > > > >>> prior to the lift (fine tune the pinion angles).
>
> > > > > >>> Bill Spiliotopoulos,
> > > > > >>> '96 XJ
> > > > > >>> '06 TJ.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > OK everybody.....new scenario.
>
> > > > I have found a lift kit that contains the following. Let me know what
> > > > you think of this kit vs. the kit with the 2.25" coil spacers, new
> > > > shocks, and my stock springs. Just for reminders, I have a 2006
> > > > Wrangler X with 6 speed manual, A/C, and 3.07 gears. I now have 31X
> > > > 10.5 X 15 tires on my stock rims.
>
> > > > The new kit that I have found is this:
> > > > 1.) Rubicon springs (front and rear) that are 1" longer than my stock
> > > > springs
> > > > 2.) 2" coil spacers for front and rear
> > > > 3.) A 1.25" t-case drop kit made by Daystar
> > > > 4.) Four shocks that are rated for a 2-3" lift
>
> > > > This will give me a total lift of 3". Do I need to worry about a rear
> > > > track bar relocation bracket or getting a new CV driveshaft/SYE kit
> > > > with this type of setup? Anything else I should know with this type
> > > > of setup? And lastly, will 31s look too small with this type of lift
> > > > setup? Feel free to give me any other information that you can think
> > > > of regarding this lift vs. the original lift I was thinking of (the
> > > > one that was going to use my stock springs).
>
> > > > THANKS- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Mike and Bill --
>
> > > You both have VERY good points and I am grateful for the information
> > > that you've provided to me. I am just really new to this and don't
> > > want to have to do this lift 5 times over to get the results that I
> > > want.
>
> > > So on that note.....TW
> > > The instructions that you gave a couple of posts above (#1-#6).....I
> > > assume that this is good for the 2.25" spacers as well.....not just
> > > for 2" spacers? (I am assuming that 1/4 inch would not make much
> > > difference, but with stuff like this, it wouldn't surprise me if it
> > > did make a difference).
>
> > > Mike....
> > > If I just do the 2.25" spacer lift like you are suggesting, would a 1"
> > > body lift in the future cause any headaches in the future as far as
> > > the installation goes? I have heard some body lift kits are not
> > > compatible with jeeps that have A/C.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Bill/Mike/TW --
>
> > That's what I thought. I didn't think there was a difference in the
> > height either. In order to save myself all the headaches (and you
> > poor guys as well :D), I have decided to go with a 2.25" coil spacer
> > lift with the new shocks and my stock springs. I will most likely add
> > a 1" body lift for 32" tire clearance in the future. Which will still
> > give me roughly 5.5" of lift (with the 32s). And that's close enough
> > to what I wanted overall anyway (I wanted 6" of lift overall, but will
> > settle for 5.5").
>
> > Someone mentioned that when you get over 2" of suspension lift (Mike I
> > think this was you), that you start to have all sorts of headaches.
> > Not to sound silly, but will the 2.25" spacer vs. the 2" spacer make
> > much difference in the way of potential headaches associated with
> > driveshaft, adjustable control arms, etc.?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> And TW....
>
> You stated that with a 2" inch suspension lift you do NOT need to
> relocate the front or rear track bar. Same question....does the 2.25"
> spacer vs. the 2" spacer change that?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Sorry....one moret thing. What about extended bumpstops? Do I need
them for the front AND rear with the 2.25" spacer lift or just for the
rear?

Tracie

On Aug 27, 11:01 am, Tracie <brain...@upstate.edu> wrote:
> On Aug 27, 11:00 am, Tracie <brain...@upstate.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 27, 10:47 am, Tracie <brain...@upstate.edu> wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 27, 10:30 am, Tracie <brain...@upstate.edu> wrote:
>
> > > > On Aug 27, 8:25 am, "Bill Spiliotopoulos" <vsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > A correction,
> > > > > Caster angles should be positive (7 degrees), not negative.
>
> > > > > Ï "Bill Spiliotopoulos" <vsp...@yahoo.com> Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìánews:faudc7$e95$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr...
>
> > > > > >I have to remind you that the TJ has a coil sprung suspension with upper
> > > > > >and lower arms, which alter the pinion angle when it is raised -lowered,
> > > > > >unlike the leaf sprung suspensions which keep the pinion angle constant.
>
> > > > > > Raising 2" does create driveline vibes because the rear pinion is no
> > > > > > longer parallel to the transfer case output shaft.
> > > > > > You can chose to ignore them or may not notice they are there, but the
> > > > > > truth is that they exist.
> > > > > > I have seen TJ of friends of mine that said they didn't have any driveline
> > > > > > vibes after a 2" lift, but when I drove their rig I could feel the
> > > > > > difference. With a mismatch in pinion - output shaft angle, it feels like
> > > > > > the engine is running rough and they blame the engine or the exhaust. The
> > > > > > only way to convince them was to drop their thansfer case 1/2 inch and ask
> > > > > > them if they cound feel the difference, which they could.
>
> > > > > > Yes, the TJ has a double cardan joint in the transfer case front end,
> > > > > > which requires the pinion angle to be set almost parallel to the
> > > > > > driveshaft (0.5 degrees lower). You won't notice driveline vibes when in
> > > > > > 2wd mode though. But the front pinion angle also affects the front caster
> > > > > > angle.
> > > > > > By raising 2" in the TJ, the caster increases from -7 degrees to about -5.
> > > > > > The front pinion also gets 2 degrees higher than the driveshaft.. By
> > > > > > re-adjusting the front pinion angle, you fix the caster angle also. When
> > > > > > the front pinion is adjusted properly, you loose only 0.3 degrees of
> > > > > > caster angle for the 2" lift compared to the factory caster setting.
>
> > > > > > Now I speak all this from personal experience on the exact samevehicle as
> > > > > > the O.P., as I have installed the same lift on my TJ and setting the
> > > > > > pinion angles was what made it to ride smooth like stock again.
>
> > > > > > About adding cargo and upsetting the rear driveline angle to create vibes,
> > > > > > this is what happens in the TJ.
> > > > > > There is a range that the pinion angle may be off, which doesn't create
> > > > > > noticeable vibes. The rear pinion is set to the upper side of this range.
> > > > > > When you load the TJ and the suspension its lower, the rear pinion will
> > > > > > operate to the lower side of the range, and you won't get any vibes. With
> > > > > > slight load, the pinion angle is at the center of the range andit feels
> > > > > > like running a bit smoother. But if you remove the hardtop andthe rear
> > > > > > seat, which makes the suspension sit higher, you will notice driveline
> > > > > > vibes.
>
> > > > > > Bill Spiliotopoulos,
> > > > > > '96 XJ,
> > > > > > '06 TJ.
>
> > > > > > ? "Mike Romain" <roma...@sympatico.ca> ?????? ??? ??????
> > > > > >news:46cedfd9$0$5203$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosti ng.com...
> > > > > >> What 'are' you talking about?
>
> > > > > >> The front has a double cardan or CV joint already so needs 'notweaking'
> > > > > >> at all even for a larger lift and a 2" is not going to change the rear
> > > > > >> enough to matter.
>
> > > > > >> You get that much/more change with a load on or off.
>
> > > > > >> By your reckoning if I put 4 people and gear in my Jeep, it won't drive
> > > > > >> because my height will be off by at least 2".
>
> > > > > >> Mike
> > > > > >> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > > >> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile...
> > > > > >> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> > > > > >> Jan/06http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
> > > > > >> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> > > > > >> Bill Spiliotopoulos wrote:
> > > > > >>>> 2.) With the 2" spacer lift, would I have to drop the t-case or do
> > > > > >>>> any other mods besides slapping it on?
>
> > > > > >>> Yes.
>
> > > > > >>> You have to turn the rear axle forward, so that the pinion axis is
> > > > > >>> almost parallel (a bit lower) to the transfer case output shaft. Or
> > > > > >>> drop the transfer case 1/2 inch. Turning the rear axle forward will cost
> > > > > >>> more if you have a shop do it for you (requires either adjustable lower
> > > > > >>> arms, or elongating the upper arms rear mounting holes and installing an
> > > > > >>> eccentric washer to set the pinion angle). You may not be sensitive
> > > > > >>> enough to feel the vibes, but even with 1 inch lift, the pinion angle
> > > > > >>> gets misaligned, increasing mechanical noise and u-joint wear.
>
> > > > > >>> You also MUST rotate the front axle towards the rear to make the pinion
> > > > > >>> axis parallel with the front driveshaft.
> > > > > >>> This will restore the caster angle to factory specification, which is
> > > > > >>> very important to limit the occurence of death wobble. The toe-in on
> > > > > >>> the front axle must be set after the pinion angle is set for the front
> > > > > >>> axle.
>
> > > > > >>> The 2" spacer lift and 31" M/T tire combination is a very good
> > > > > >>> combination. If you disconnect the front sway-bar the off-road
> > > > > >>> capability of your rig will be dramatically increased compared to what
> > > > > >>> it is right now. With the say-bar connected, your on-road behavior will
> > > > > >>> not be much affected.
> > > > > >>> This is a picture of a 2006 TJ with 2" spacer lift and 235R15tires with
> > > > > >>> the swaay-bar disconnected.
> > > > > >>>http://alma-tech.com/tmp/tj_flex.jpg
>
> > > > > >>> But you must find a shop that is willing to deal with all the"minor"
> > > > > >>> details required to make the car run comfortable and safe as it was
> > > > > >>> prior to the lift (fine tune the pinion angles).
>
> > > > > >>> Bill Spiliotopoulos,
> > > > > >>> '96 XJ
> > > > > >>> '06 TJ.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > OK everybody.....new scenario.
>
> > > > I have found a lift kit that contains the following. Let me know what
> > > > you think of this kit vs. the kit with the 2.25" coil spacers, new
> > > > shocks, and my stock springs. Just for reminders, I have a 2006
> > > > Wrangler X with 6 speed manual, A/C, and 3.07 gears. I now have 31X
> > > > 10.5 X 15 tires on my stock rims.
>
> > > > The new kit that I have found is this:
> > > > 1.) Rubicon springs (front and rear) that are 1" longer than my stock
> > > > springs
> > > > 2.) 2" coil spacers for front and rear
> > > > 3.) A 1.25" t-case drop kit made by Daystar
> > > > 4.) Four shocks that are rated for a 2-3" lift
>
> > > > This will give me a total lift of 3". Do I need to worry about a rear
> > > > track bar relocation bracket or getting a new CV driveshaft/SYE kit
> > > > with this type of setup? Anything else I should know with this type
> > > > of setup? And lastly, will 31s look too small with this type of lift
> > > > setup? Feel free to give me any other information that you can think
> > > > of regarding this lift vs. the original lift I was thinking of (the
> > > > one that was going to use my stock springs).
>
> > > > THANKS- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Mike and Bill --
>
> > > You both have VERY good points and I am grateful for the information
> > > that you've provided to me. I am just really new to this and don't
> > > want to have to do this lift 5 times over to get the results that I
> > > want.
>
> > > So on that note.....TW
> > > The instructions that you gave a couple of posts above (#1-#6).....I
> > > assume that this is good for the 2.25" spacers as well.....not just
> > > for 2" spacers? (I am assuming that 1/4 inch would not make much
> > > difference, but with stuff like this, it wouldn't surprise me if it
> > > did make a difference).
>
> > > Mike....
> > > If I just do the 2.25" spacer lift like you are suggesting, would a 1"
> > > body lift in the future cause any headaches in the future as far as
> > > the installation goes? I have heard some body lift kits are not
> > > compatible with jeeps that have A/C.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Bill/Mike/TW --
>
> > That's what I thought. I didn't think there was a difference in the
> > height either. In order to save myself all the headaches (and you
> > poor guys as well :D), I have decided to go with a 2.25" coil spacer
> > lift with the new shocks and my stock springs. I will most likely add
> > a 1" body lift for 32" tire clearance in the future. Which will still
> > give me roughly 5.5" of lift (with the 32s). And that's close enough
> > to what I wanted overall anyway (I wanted 6" of lift overall, but will
> > settle for 5.5").
>
> > Someone mentioned that when you get over 2" of suspension lift (Mike I
> > think this was you), that you start to have all sorts of headaches.
> > Not to sound silly, but will the 2.25" spacer vs. the 2" spacer make
> > much difference in the way of potential headaches associated with
> > driveshaft, adjustable control arms, etc.?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> And TW....
>
> You stated that with a 2" inch suspension lift you do NOT need to
> relocate the front or rear track bar. Same question....does the 2.25"
> spacer vs. the 2" spacer change that?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Sorry....one moret thing. What about extended bumpstops? Do I need
them for the front AND rear with the 2.25" spacer lift or just for the
rear?