It sounds like you had a bad experience with a rookie salesman. "Losing"
keys to hold customers captive is simply inexcusable. I'll be the first to
admit that the auto industry has earned the bad reputation they suffer from.

It's NADA. That's the 'book' that most lenders use, at least in this area.
Kelley Blue Book is different. You can access the NADA consumer site and
Kelley on the internet. There's also the "Black Book", but that's strictly
wholesale values and available only to dealers, AFAIK. Funny thing about
the three books, they never agree! Sometimes recent auction reports are a
more accurate indicator of actual cash values. Add to the mix supply and
demand in your local area. Suppose (for example) you're trading in a blue
Dodge Intrepid and the dealer has 6 Intrepids on the lot, 4 of which are
blue. He ideally would only stock only 1 or 2 used Intrepids for inventory,
and blue is the slowest seller. Bummer! Don't be shocked if that dealer
shows a trade allowance way back of book. The point is, establishing values
on trade vehicles is rarely easy. That's not to say that your experience
was routine. IMO, and based on your description, your 80 minute trade
appraisal was poorly handled.

Best regards,
Dave Rose
Cactus Cowboy
Big Wonderful Wyoming
'49 ****** Pickup (parts truck)
'62 ****** Pickup 4WD 226
'98 XJ Sport
O|||||||O

"Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
news:I%xgc.17$aW2.23690@news.uswest.net...
> Oh PLEEZEEE, give me a break! The last time I did a new vehicle
> I walked in, asked if they would give me Bluebook wholesale for
> my trade and the advertised price (last weeks paper) for a common
> model with standard options. Cash for the difference, no
> financing issues. They said sure.
>
> Then the fun began. For openers, the way they figured it and the
> way I figure it were $2200 apart. I had to "show" them how to
> read the Naad (SP?) Bluebook, you know you really do have to add
> and subtract for condition, mileage, and options? The salesman
> didn't seem to know. Then they took my trade out for a test
> drive. When they came back, they 'LOST' my keys. Multiple trips
> by the salesman to the Manger's office. Every trick in the book.
>
> Took an hour and twenty minutes to get the deal they agreed to in
> the first 10 minutes. And $2200 difference in my net.
>
> I actually teach neogotiation skills. The above description was
> NOT negotation, there was no exchange of information or
> positions. It was strictly a case of the dealer trying to back
> out on a previously agreed on deal. And of course, I happily use
> this example in the classes I teach. Am I one of your "10%" that
> complains all the time? No, only when I am forced to deal with
> unethical people.
>
> For many people, buying a new car is similar to listening to
> someone run their fingernails down the blackboard for several
> hours. And the TV crews have a field day with hidden cams in the
> finance office. Quit trying to defend yourself to this crew, you
> won't get any sympathy.
>
> cactuscowboy wrote:
>
> > It sounds like you prefer receiving a 'bottom dollar' price without
> > negotiation, or as you put it, "playing head games" & "childish stunts".
If
> > that's what you want, simply ask for it the next time you car shop. As
a
> > salesman, I'm perfectly happy to accomodate such demands. Keep in mind
that
> > negotiation is a buying/selling skill and you're more likely to get a
better
> > price by effectively negotiating versus demanding bottom dollar. Don't
view
> > negotiating as confrontation, personal attacks, game playing, etc.....
> > It's not.
> >
> > There is absolutely nothing wrong with any dealer asking full list price
and
> > showing ACV on a trade. Don't ever take that as an insult. Some
customers
> > (very few actually) will sign up and take delivery when asked for all
the
> > money. Guess what? Those customers are by far the happiest! They'll
tell
> > friends and family about the great deal they got and send us referrals.
Did
> > they really get a great deal? Yes, in their minds they did, and that's
all
> > that really matters.
> >
> > In contrast, there are "ten percenters", the customers who negotiate
> > relentlessly until we're discounting below invoice, going into holdback.
> > (They actually will drive 300 miles to save $50 - I've seen it). I've
sold
> > my share of ten percenters and they're usually the biggest complainers
in
> > the service and parts department. Some will bitterly complain to their
> > friends and family about getting their "heads ripped off" and how all
car
> > dealers are "crooks". In many cases, we're talking about people who are
mad
> > at world and unhappy in general.
> >
> > Buying vehicles is never a simple matter of getting the "best price".
There
> > are many other factors such as supply and demand on a particular model,
how
> > long the desired vehicle has been in the dealer's inventory, what the
> > customer is trading in, customers with negative equity in a trade and/or
bad
> > credit, the car store's sales philosophy and style, etc........
> >
> > My advice is to lighten up a bit the next time you buy. Having less of
an
> > adversarial attitude will do much to make car shopping more enjoyable.
Also
> > consider that a true sales professional will try to control the sales
> > process by following the basics: greeting, establish rapport, fact
> > finding/assess needs, presentation/walk around, demo drive, write up,
and
> > delivery. Shortcutting that process is unfair to the customer and the
car
> > dealer. Plan to spend 45 minutes, or longer if you buy and the dealer
does
> > a spot delivery. If 45 minutes is too much to ask of your "precious
time",
> > plan to walk in and write a check for an advertised special when it
appears
> > in the newspaper.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Dave Rose
> > Cactus Cowboy
> > Big Wonderful Wyoming
> > '49 ****** Pickup (parts truck)
> > '62 ****** Pickup 4WD 226
> > '98 XJ Sport
> > O|||||||O
> >
> >
> >
> > "L0nD0t.$t0we11" <"L0nD0t.$t0we11"@ComcastDot.Net> wrote in message
> > news:du0gc.8345$aM4.20562@attbi_s53...
> >
> >>Roughly 4/15/04 21:51, cactuscowboy's monkeys randomly typed:
> >>
> >>
> >>>I sell Jeeps. Did you really get a "better deal" 170 miles away?
> >
> > Perhaps
> >
> >>>you didn't negotiate properly with your local dealer?
> >>
> >> Some dealers are just more interested in playing head games than
> >> making money. I would drive 170 miles and pay *more* to make sure
> >> this type never accidentally makes as much as a penny from me.
> >>
> >> On the other hand, a dealershipt that does not insist on playing
> >> games or wasting my valuable time in "hang on, gotta go check with
> >> the manager" childish stunts can make extra money... my time is
> >> worth more than a few lousy dollars.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Where I work, we
> >>>don't lose deals over price to competing dealers, no matter where
> >
> > they're
> >
> >>>located.
> >>
> >> Note that I am not saying your dealership does this, but if I come
> >> there and get one price, then drive 170 miles and get a far better
> >> one, the odds of me wasting my valuable time coming back to you
> >> to see if you'll match or beat it are zero and none. If you offer
> >> the cheaper price only after I've found a better one, you have
> >> already kissed the deal goodbye by playing games. You can add
> >> an additional penalty factor if I've been getting my vehicle
> >> serviced at your dealership for the past couple years and then
> >> some salestype tries this on what would be presumed to be a
> >> reasonably loyal customer. Granted before I go to the front of
> >> a dealer I'll be very likely to ask the service writer which
> >> salesman pisses him off the least.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> Was that factored into the alleged "better deal"?
> >>
> >> It ain't always money.
> >>
> >>>I live in a small town in NW Wyoming. With very, very few exceptions,
I
> >
> > do
> >
> >>>all of my shopping locally. It's important to me that I support my
> >
> > friends
> >
> >>>and neighbors and the local economy. My car store supports our
> >
> > community,
> >
> >>>giving generously to non-profit organizations, sponsoring the county
> >
> > fair,
> >
> >>>4H programs, etc...... In contrast, residents here who spend money out
> >
> > of
> >
> >>>state (typically Billings, Montana) contribute absolutely NOTHING to
the
> >>>local Wyoming economy.
> >>
> >> Yeah, I gotta agree there... a local dealer who treats folks right
> >> is worth extra money in my book. However if that dealer offers to
> >> beat an out of town offer only after I've wasted 300+ miles, they
> >> tend to get removed from the "treats loyal customers right" category
> >> in a hurry.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>Evolution is merely survival of the minimally adequate
> >>
> >
> >
> >

 

cactuscowboy did pass the time by typing:


<snippies>

> There's also the "Black Book", but that's strictly
> wholesale values and available only to dealers, AFAIK.

http://www.carquotes.com/blackbook.asp

But you also have to take into account any options
such as premium wheels, tint, etc that will affect
the price.

--
DougW

 

cactuscowboy did pass the time by typing:


<snippies>

> There's also the "Black Book", but that's strictly
> wholesale values and available only to dealers, AFAIK.

http://www.carquotes.com/blackbook.asp

But you also have to take into account any options
such as premium wheels, tint, etc that will affect
the price.

--
DougW

 

cactuscowboy did pass the time by typing:


<snippies>

> There's also the "Black Book", but that's strictly
> wholesale values and available only to dealers, AFAIK.

http://www.carquotes.com/blackbook.asp

But you also have to take into account any options
such as premium wheels, tint, etc that will affect
the price.

--
DougW

 

cactuscowboy did pass the time by typing:


<snippies>

> There's also the "Black Book", but that's strictly
> wholesale values and available only to dealers, AFAIK.

http://www.carquotes.com/blackbook.asp

But you also have to take into account any options
such as premium wheels, tint, etc that will affect
the price.

--
DougW

 

Black book is available on the internet as well I dont have the link off
hand but I'll look for it.
Maybe "Link Master" Bill has it, before I start looking?


"cactuscowboy" <cactuscowboy@bresnan.net> wrote in message
news:ntGdnWZTF8mSkh7dRVn-gw@bresnan.com...
> It sounds like you had a bad experience with a rookie salesman. "Losing"
> keys to hold customers captive is simply inexcusable. I'll be the first
to
> admit that the auto industry has earned the bad reputation they suffer
from.
>
> It's NADA. That's the 'book' that most lenders use, at least in this
area.
> Kelley Blue Book is different. You can access the NADA consumer site and
> Kelley on the internet. There's also the "Black Book", but that's
strictly
> wholesale values and available only to dealers, AFAIK. Funny thing about
> the three books, they never agree! Sometimes recent auction reports are a
> more accurate indicator of actual cash values. Add to the mix supply and
> demand in your local area. Suppose (for example) you're trading in a blue
> Dodge Intrepid and the dealer has 6 Intrepids on the lot, 4 of which are
> blue. He ideally would only stock only 1 or 2 used Intrepids for
inventory,
> and blue is the slowest seller. Bummer! Don't be shocked if that dealer
> shows a trade allowance way back of book. The point is, establishing
values
> on trade vehicles is rarely easy. That's not to say that your experience
> was routine. IMO, and based on your description, your 80 minute trade
> appraisal was poorly handled.
>
> Best regards,
> Dave Rose
> Cactus Cowboy
> Big Wonderful Wyoming
> '49 ****** Pickup (parts truck)
> '62 ****** Pickup 4WD 226
> '98 XJ Sport
> O|||||||O
>
> "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> news:I%xgc.17$aW2.23690@news.uswest.net...
> > Oh PLEEZEEE, give me a break! The last time I did a new vehicle
> > I walked in, asked if they would give me Bluebook wholesale for
> > my trade and the advertised price (last weeks paper) for a common
> > model with standard options. Cash for the difference, no
> > financing issues. They said sure.
> >
> > Then the fun began. For openers, the way they figured it and the
> > way I figure it were $2200 apart. I had to "show" them how to
> > read the Naad (SP?) Bluebook, you know you really do have to add
> > and subtract for condition, mileage, and options? The salesman
> > didn't seem to know. Then they took my trade out for a test
> > drive. When they came back, they 'LOST' my keys. Multiple trips
> > by the salesman to the Manger's office. Every trick in the book.
> >
> > Took an hour and twenty minutes to get the deal they agreed to in
> > the first 10 minutes. And $2200 difference in my net.
> >
> > I actually teach neogotiation skills. The above description was
> > NOT negotation, there was no exchange of information or
> > positions. It was strictly a case of the dealer trying to back
> > out on a previously agreed on deal. And of course, I happily use
> > this example in the classes I teach. Am I one of your "10%" that
> > complains all the time? No, only when I am forced to deal with
> > unethical people.
> >
> > For many people, buying a new car is similar to listening to
> > someone run their fingernails down the blackboard for several
> > hours. And the TV crews have a field day with hidden cams in the
> > finance office. Quit trying to defend yourself to this crew, you
> > won't get any sympathy.
> >
> > cactuscowboy wrote:
> >
> > > It sounds like you prefer receiving a 'bottom dollar' price without
> > > negotiation, or as you put it, "playing head games" & "childish
stunts".
> If
> > > that's what you want, simply ask for it the next time you car shop.
As
> a
> > > salesman, I'm perfectly happy to accomodate such demands. Keep in
mind
> that
> > > negotiation is a buying/selling skill and you're more likely to get a
> better
> > > price by effectively negotiating versus demanding bottom dollar.
Don't
> view
> > > negotiating as confrontation, personal attacks, game playing, etc.....
> > > It's not.
> > >
> > > There is absolutely nothing wrong with any dealer asking full list
price
> and
> > > showing ACV on a trade. Don't ever take that as an insult. Some
> customers
> > > (very few actually) will sign up and take delivery when asked for all
> the
> > > money. Guess what? Those customers are by far the happiest! They'll
> tell
> > > friends and family about the great deal they got and send us
referrals.
> Did
> > > they really get a great deal? Yes, in their minds they did, and
that's
> all
> > > that really matters.
> > >
> > > In contrast, there are "ten percenters", the customers who negotiate
> > > relentlessly until we're discounting below invoice, going into
holdback.
> > > (They actually will drive 300 miles to save $50 - I've seen it). I've
> sold
> > > my share of ten percenters and they're usually the biggest complainers
> in
> > > the service and parts department. Some will bitterly complain to
their
> > > friends and family about getting their "heads ripped off" and how all
> car
> > > dealers are "crooks". In many cases, we're talking about people who
are
> mad
> > > at world and unhappy in general.
> > >
> > > Buying vehicles is never a simple matter of getting the "best price".
> There
> > > are many other factors such as supply and demand on a particular
model,
> how
> > > long the desired vehicle has been in the dealer's inventory, what the
> > > customer is trading in, customers with negative equity in a trade
and/or
> bad
> > > credit, the car store's sales philosophy and style, etc........
> > >
> > > My advice is to lighten up a bit the next time you buy. Having less
of
> an
> > > adversarial attitude will do much to make car shopping more enjoyable.
> Also
> > > consider that a true sales professional will try to control the sales
> > > process by following the basics: greeting, establish rapport, fact
> > > finding/assess needs, presentation/walk around, demo drive, write up,
> and
> > > delivery. Shortcutting that process is unfair to the customer and the
> car
> > > dealer. Plan to spend 45 minutes, or longer if you buy and the dealer
> does
> > > a spot delivery. If 45 minutes is too much to ask of your "precious
> time",
> > > plan to walk in and write a check for an advertised special when it
> appears
> > > in the newspaper.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Dave Rose
> > > Cactus Cowboy
> > > Big Wonderful Wyoming
> > > '49 ****** Pickup (parts truck)
> > > '62 ****** Pickup 4WD 226
> > > '98 XJ Sport
> > > O|||||||O
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "L0nD0t.$t0we11" <"L0nD0t.$t0we11"@ComcastDot.Net> wrote in message
> > > news:du0gc.8345$aM4.20562@attbi_s53...
> > >
> > >>Roughly 4/15/04 21:51, cactuscowboy's monkeys randomly typed:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>I sell Jeeps. Did you really get a "better deal" 170 miles away?
> > >
> > > Perhaps
> > >
> > >>>you didn't negotiate properly with your local dealer?
> > >>
> > >> Some dealers are just more interested in playing head games than
> > >> making money. I would drive 170 miles and pay *more* to make sure
> > >> this type never accidentally makes as much as a penny from me.
> > >>
> > >> On the other hand, a dealershipt that does not insist on playing
> > >> games or wasting my valuable time in "hang on, gotta go check with
> > >> the manager" childish stunts can make extra money... my time is
> > >> worth more than a few lousy dollars.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>Where I work, we
> > >>>don't lose deals over price to competing dealers, no matter where
> > >
> > > they're
> > >
> > >>>located.
> > >>
> > >> Note that I am not saying your dealership does this, but if I come
> > >> there and get one price, then drive 170 miles and get a far better
> > >> one, the odds of me wasting my valuable time coming back to you
> > >> to see if you'll match or beat it are zero and none. If you offer
> > >> the cheaper price only after I've found a better one, you have
> > >> already kissed the deal goodbye by playing games. You can add
> > >> an additional penalty factor if I've been getting my vehicle
> > >> serviced at your dealership for the past couple years and then
> > >> some salestype tries this on what would be presumed to be a
> > >> reasonably loyal customer. Granted before I go to the front of
> > >> a dealer I'll be very likely to ask the service writer which
> > >> salesman pisses him off the least.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Was that factored into the alleged "better deal"?
> > >>
> > >> It ain't always money.
> > >>
> > >>>I live in a small town in NW Wyoming. With very, very few
exceptions,
> I
> > >
> > > do
> > >
> > >>>all of my shopping locally. It's important to me that I support my
> > >
> > > friends
> > >
> > >>>and neighbors and the local economy. My car store supports our
> > >
> > > community,
> > >
> > >>>giving generously to non-profit organizations, sponsoring the county
> > >
> > > fair,
> > >
> > >>>4H programs, etc...... In contrast, residents here who spend money
out
> > >
> > > of
> > >
> > >>>state (typically Billings, Montana) contribute absolutely NOTHING to
> the
> > >>>local Wyoming economy.
> > >>
> > >> Yeah, I gotta agree there... a local dealer who treats folks right
> > >> is worth extra money in my book. However if that dealer offers to
> > >> beat an out of town offer only after I've wasted 300+ miles, they
> > >> tend to get removed from the "treats loyal customers right" category
> > >> in a hurry.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>--
> > >>Evolution is merely survival of the minimally adequate
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>

 

Black book is available on the internet as well I dont have the link off
hand but I'll look for it.
Maybe "Link Master" Bill has it, before I start looking?


"cactuscowboy" <cactuscowboy@bresnan.net> wrote in message
news:ntGdnWZTF8mSkh7dRVn-gw@bresnan.com...
> It sounds like you had a bad experience with a rookie salesman. "Losing"
> keys to hold customers captive is simply inexcusable. I'll be the first
to
> admit that the auto industry has earned the bad reputation they suffer
from.
>
> It's NADA. That's the 'book' that most lenders use, at least in this
area.
> Kelley Blue Book is different. You can access the NADA consumer site and
> Kelley on the internet. There's also the "Black Book", but that's
strictly
> wholesale values and available only to dealers, AFAIK. Funny thing about
> the three books, they never agree! Sometimes recent auction reports are a
> more accurate indicator of actual cash values. Add to the mix supply and
> demand in your local area. Suppose (for example) you're trading in a blue
> Dodge Intrepid and the dealer has 6 Intrepids on the lot, 4 of which are
> blue. He ideally would only stock only 1 or 2 used Intrepids for
inventory,
> and blue is the slowest seller. Bummer! Don't be shocked if that dealer
> shows a trade allowance way back of book. The point is, establishing
values
> on trade vehicles is rarely easy. That's not to say that your experience
> was routine. IMO, and based on your description, your 80 minute trade
> appraisal was poorly handled.
>
> Best regards,
> Dave Rose
> Cactus Cowboy
> Big Wonderful Wyoming
> '49 ****** Pickup (parts truck)
> '62 ****** Pickup 4WD 226
> '98 XJ Sport
> O|||||||O
>
> "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> news:I%xgc.17$aW2.23690@news.uswest.net...
> > Oh PLEEZEEE, give me a break! The last time I did a new vehicle
> > I walked in, asked if they would give me Bluebook wholesale for
> > my trade and the advertised price (last weeks paper) for a common
> > model with standard options. Cash for the difference, no
> > financing issues. They said sure.
> >
> > Then the fun began. For openers, the way they figured it and the
> > way I figure it were $2200 apart. I had to "show" them how to
> > read the Naad (SP?) Bluebook, you know you really do have to add
> > and subtract for condition, mileage, and options? The salesman
> > didn't seem to know. Then they took my trade out for a test
> > drive. When they came back, they 'LOST' my keys. Multiple trips
> > by the salesman to the Manger's office. Every trick in the book.
> >
> > Took an hour and twenty minutes to get the deal they agreed to in
> > the first 10 minutes. And $2200 difference in my net.
> >
> > I actually teach neogotiation skills. The above description was
> > NOT negotation, there was no exchange of information or
> > positions. It was strictly a case of the dealer trying to back
> > out on a previously agreed on deal. And of course, I happily use
> > this example in the classes I teach. Am I one of your "10%" that
> > complains all the time? No, only when I am forced to deal with
> > unethical people.
> >
> > For many people, buying a new car is similar to listening to
> > someone run their fingernails down the blackboard for several
> > hours. And the TV crews have a field day with hidden cams in the
> > finance office. Quit trying to defend yourself to this crew, you
> > won't get any sympathy.
> >
> > cactuscowboy wrote:
> >
> > > It sounds like you prefer receiving a 'bottom dollar' price without
> > > negotiation, or as you put it, "playing head games" & "childish
stunts".
> If
> > > that's what you want, simply ask for it the next time you car shop.
As
> a
> > > salesman, I'm perfectly happy to accomodate such demands. Keep in
mind
> that
> > > negotiation is a buying/selling skill and you're more likely to get a
> better
> > > price by effectively negotiating versus demanding bottom dollar.
Don't
> view
> > > negotiating as confrontation, personal attacks, game playing, etc.....
> > > It's not.
> > >
> > > There is absolutely nothing wrong with any dealer asking full list
price
> and
> > > showing ACV on a trade. Don't ever take that as an insult. Some
> customers
> > > (very few actually) will sign up and take delivery when asked for all
> the
> > > money. Guess what? Those customers are by far the happiest! They'll
> tell
> > > friends and family about the great deal they got and send us
referrals.
> Did
> > > they really get a great deal? Yes, in their minds they did, and
that's
> all
> > > that really matters.
> > >
> > > In contrast, there are "ten percenters", the customers who negotiate
> > > relentlessly until we're discounting below invoice, going into
holdback.
> > > (They actually will drive 300 miles to save $50 - I've seen it). I've
> sold
> > > my share of ten percenters and they're usually the biggest complainers
> in
> > > the service and parts department. Some will bitterly complain to
their
> > > friends and family about getting their "heads ripped off" and how all
> car
> > > dealers are "crooks". In many cases, we're talking about people who
are
> mad
> > > at world and unhappy in general.
> > >
> > > Buying vehicles is never a simple matter of getting the "best price".
> There
> > > are many other factors such as supply and demand on a particular
model,
> how
> > > long the desired vehicle has been in the dealer's inventory, what the
> > > customer is trading in, customers with negative equity in a trade
and/or
> bad
> > > credit, the car store's sales philosophy and style, etc........
> > >
> > > My advice is to lighten up a bit the next time you buy. Having less
of
> an
> > > adversarial attitude will do much to make car shopping more enjoyable.
> Also
> > > consider that a true sales professional will try to control the sales
> > > process by following the basics: greeting, establish rapport, fact
> > > finding/assess needs, presentation/walk around, demo drive, write up,
> and
> > > delivery. Shortcutting that process is unfair to the customer and the
> car
> > > dealer. Plan to spend 45 minutes, or longer if you buy and the dealer
> does
> > > a spot delivery. If 45 minutes is too much to ask of your "precious
> time",
> > > plan to walk in and write a check for an advertised special when it
> appears
> > > in the newspaper.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Dave Rose
> > > Cactus Cowboy
> > > Big Wonderful Wyoming
> > > '49 ****** Pickup (parts truck)
> > > '62 ****** Pickup 4WD 226
> > > '98 XJ Sport
> > > O|||||||O
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "L0nD0t.$t0we11" <"L0nD0t.$t0we11"@ComcastDot.Net> wrote in message
> > > news:du0gc.8345$aM4.20562@attbi_s53...
> > >
> > >>Roughly 4/15/04 21:51, cactuscowboy's monkeys randomly typed:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>I sell Jeeps. Did you really get a "better deal" 170 miles away?
> > >
> > > Perhaps
> > >
> > >>>you didn't negotiate properly with your local dealer?
> > >>
> > >> Some dealers are just more interested in playing head games than
> > >> making money. I would drive 170 miles and pay *more* to make sure
> > >> this type never accidentally makes as much as a penny from me.
> > >>
> > >> On the other hand, a dealershipt that does not insist on playing
> > >> games or wasting my valuable time in "hang on, gotta go check with
> > >> the manager" childish stunts can make extra money... my time is
> > >> worth more than a few lousy dollars.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>Where I work, we
> > >>>don't lose deals over price to competing dealers, no matter where
> > >
> > > they're
> > >
> > >>>located.
> > >>
> > >> Note that I am not saying your dealership does this, but if I come
> > >> there and get one price, then drive 170 miles and get a far better
> > >> one, the odds of me wasting my valuable time coming back to you
> > >> to see if you'll match or beat it are zero and none. If you offer
> > >> the cheaper price only after I've found a better one, you have
> > >> already kissed the deal goodbye by playing games. You can add
> > >> an additional penalty factor if I've been getting my vehicle
> > >> serviced at your dealership for the past couple years and then
> > >> some salestype tries this on what would be presumed to be a
> > >> reasonably loyal customer. Granted before I go to the front of
> > >> a dealer I'll be very likely to ask the service writer which
> > >> salesman pisses him off the least.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Was that factored into the alleged "better deal"?
> > >>
> > >> It ain't always money.
> > >>
> > >>>I live in a small town in NW Wyoming. With very, very few
exceptions,
> I
> > >
> > > do
> > >
> > >>>all of my shopping locally. It's important to me that I support my
> > >
> > > friends
> > >
> > >>>and neighbors and the local economy. My car store supports our
> > >
> > > community,
> > >
> > >>>giving generously to non-profit organizations, sponsoring the county
> > >
> > > fair,
> > >
> > >>>4H programs, etc...... In contrast, residents here who spend money
out
> > >
> > > of
> > >
> > >>>state (typically Billings, Montana) contribute absolutely NOTHING to
> the
> > >>>local Wyoming economy.
> > >>
> > >> Yeah, I gotta agree there... a local dealer who treats folks right
> > >> is worth extra money in my book. However if that dealer offers to
> > >> beat an out of town offer only after I've wasted 300+ miles, they
> > >> tend to get removed from the "treats loyal customers right" category
> > >> in a hurry.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>--
> > >>Evolution is merely survival of the minimally adequate
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>

 

Black book is available on the internet as well I dont have the link off
hand but I'll look for it.
Maybe "Link Master" Bill has it, before I start looking?


"cactuscowboy" <cactuscowboy@bresnan.net> wrote in message
news:ntGdnWZTF8mSkh7dRVn-gw@bresnan.com...
> It sounds like you had a bad experience with a rookie salesman. "Losing"
> keys to hold customers captive is simply inexcusable. I'll be the first
to
> admit that the auto industry has earned the bad reputation they suffer
from.
>
> It's NADA. That's the 'book' that most lenders use, at least in this
area.
> Kelley Blue Book is different. You can access the NADA consumer site and
> Kelley on the internet. There's also the "Black Book", but that's
strictly
> wholesale values and available only to dealers, AFAIK. Funny thing about
> the three books, they never agree! Sometimes recent auction reports are a
> more accurate indicator of actual cash values. Add to the mix supply and
> demand in your local area. Suppose (for example) you're trading in a blue
> Dodge Intrepid and the dealer has 6 Intrepids on the lot, 4 of which are
> blue. He ideally would only stock only 1 or 2 used Intrepids for
inventory,
> and blue is the slowest seller. Bummer! Don't be shocked if that dealer
> shows a trade allowance way back of book. The point is, establishing
values
> on trade vehicles is rarely easy. That's not to say that your experience
> was routine. IMO, and based on your description, your 80 minute trade
> appraisal was poorly handled.
>
> Best regards,
> Dave Rose
> Cactus Cowboy
> Big Wonderful Wyoming
> '49 ****** Pickup (parts truck)
> '62 ****** Pickup 4WD 226
> '98 XJ Sport
> O|||||||O
>
> "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> news:I%xgc.17$aW2.23690@news.uswest.net...
> > Oh PLEEZEEE, give me a break! The last time I did a new vehicle
> > I walked in, asked if they would give me Bluebook wholesale for
> > my trade and the advertised price (last weeks paper) for a common
> > model with standard options. Cash for the difference, no
> > financing issues. They said sure.
> >
> > Then the fun began. For openers, the way they figured it and the
> > way I figure it were $2200 apart. I had to "show" them how to
> > read the Naad (SP?) Bluebook, you know you really do have to add
> > and subtract for condition, mileage, and options? The salesman
> > didn't seem to know. Then they took my trade out for a test
> > drive. When they came back, they 'LOST' my keys. Multiple trips
> > by the salesman to the Manger's office. Every trick in the book.
> >
> > Took an hour and twenty minutes to get the deal they agreed to in
> > the first 10 minutes. And $2200 difference in my net.
> >
> > I actually teach neogotiation skills. The above description was
> > NOT negotation, there was no exchange of information or
> > positions. It was strictly a case of the dealer trying to back
> > out on a previously agreed on deal. And of course, I happily use
> > this example in the classes I teach. Am I one of your "10%" that
> > complains all the time? No, only when I am forced to deal with
> > unethical people.
> >
> > For many people, buying a new car is similar to listening to
> > someone run their fingernails down the blackboard for several
> > hours. And the TV crews have a field day with hidden cams in the
> > finance office. Quit trying to defend yourself to this crew, you
> > won't get any sympathy.
> >
> > cactuscowboy wrote:
> >
> > > It sounds like you prefer receiving a 'bottom dollar' price without
> > > negotiation, or as you put it, "playing head games" & "childish
stunts".
> If
> > > that's what you want, simply ask for it the next time you car shop.
As
> a
> > > salesman, I'm perfectly happy to accomodate such demands. Keep in
mind
> that
> > > negotiation is a buying/selling skill and you're more likely to get a
> better
> > > price by effectively negotiating versus demanding bottom dollar.
Don't
> view
> > > negotiating as confrontation, personal attacks, game playing, etc.....
> > > It's not.
> > >
> > > There is absolutely nothing wrong with any dealer asking full list
price
> and
> > > showing ACV on a trade. Don't ever take that as an insult. Some
> customers
> > > (very few actually) will sign up and take delivery when asked for all
> the
> > > money. Guess what? Those customers are by far the happiest! They'll
> tell
> > > friends and family about the great deal they got and send us
referrals.
> Did
> > > they really get a great deal? Yes, in their minds they did, and
that's
> all
> > > that really matters.
> > >
> > > In contrast, there are "ten percenters", the customers who negotiate
> > > relentlessly until we're discounting below invoice, going into
holdback.
> > > (They actually will drive 300 miles to save $50 - I've seen it). I've
> sold
> > > my share of ten percenters and they're usually the biggest complainers
> in
> > > the service and parts department. Some will bitterly complain to
their
> > > friends and family about getting their "heads ripped off" and how all
> car
> > > dealers are "crooks". In many cases, we're talking about people who
are
> mad
> > > at world and unhappy in general.
> > >
> > > Buying vehicles is never a simple matter of getting the "best price".
> There
> > > are many other factors such as supply and demand on a particular
model,
> how
> > > long the desired vehicle has been in the dealer's inventory, what the
> > > customer is trading in, customers with negative equity in a trade
and/or
> bad
> > > credit, the car store's sales philosophy and style, etc........
> > >
> > > My advice is to lighten up a bit the next time you buy. Having less
of
> an
> > > adversarial attitude will do much to make car shopping more enjoyable.
> Also
> > > consider that a true sales professional will try to control the sales
> > > process by following the basics: greeting, establish rapport, fact
> > > finding/assess needs, presentation/walk around, demo drive, write up,
> and
> > > delivery. Shortcutting that process is unfair to the customer and the
> car
> > > dealer. Plan to spend 45 minutes, or longer if you buy and the dealer
> does
> > > a spot delivery. If 45 minutes is too much to ask of your "precious
> time",
> > > plan to walk in and write a check for an advertised special when it
> appears
> > > in the newspaper.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Dave Rose
> > > Cactus Cowboy
> > > Big Wonderful Wyoming
> > > '49 ****** Pickup (parts truck)
> > > '62 ****** Pickup 4WD 226
> > > '98 XJ Sport
> > > O|||||||O
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "L0nD0t.$t0we11" <"L0nD0t.$t0we11"@ComcastDot.Net> wrote in message
> > > news:du0gc.8345$aM4.20562@attbi_s53...
> > >
> > >>Roughly 4/15/04 21:51, cactuscowboy's monkeys randomly typed:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>I sell Jeeps. Did you really get a "better deal" 170 miles away?
> > >
> > > Perhaps
> > >
> > >>>you didn't negotiate properly with your local dealer?
> > >>
> > >> Some dealers are just more interested in playing head games than
> > >> making money. I would drive 170 miles and pay *more* to make sure
> > >> this type never accidentally makes as much as a penny from me.
> > >>
> > >> On the other hand, a dealershipt that does not insist on playing
> > >> games or wasting my valuable time in "hang on, gotta go check with
> > >> the manager" childish stunts can make extra money... my time is
> > >> worth more than a few lousy dollars.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>Where I work, we
> > >>>don't lose deals over price to competing dealers, no matter where
> > >
> > > they're
> > >
> > >>>located.
> > >>
> > >> Note that I am not saying your dealership does this, but if I come
> > >> there and get one price, then drive 170 miles and get a far better
> > >> one, the odds of me wasting my valuable time coming back to you
> > >> to see if you'll match or beat it are zero and none. If you offer
> > >> the cheaper price only after I've found a better one, you have
> > >> already kissed the deal goodbye by playing games. You can add
> > >> an additional penalty factor if I've been getting my vehicle
> > >> serviced at your dealership for the past couple years and then
> > >> some salestype tries this on what would be presumed to be a
> > >> reasonably loyal customer. Granted before I go to the front of
> > >> a dealer I'll be very likely to ask the service writer which
> > >> salesman pisses him off the least.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Was that factored into the alleged "better deal"?
> > >>
> > >> It ain't always money.
> > >>
> > >>>I live in a small town in NW Wyoming. With very, very few
exceptions,
> I
> > >
> > > do
> > >
> > >>>all of my shopping locally. It's important to me that I support my
> > >
> > > friends
> > >
> > >>>and neighbors and the local economy. My car store supports our
> > >
> > > community,
> > >
> > >>>giving generously to non-profit organizations, sponsoring the county
> > >
> > > fair,
> > >
> > >>>4H programs, etc...... In contrast, residents here who spend money
out
> > >
> > > of
> > >
> > >>>state (typically Billings, Montana) contribute absolutely NOTHING to
> the
> > >>>local Wyoming economy.
> > >>
> > >> Yeah, I gotta agree there... a local dealer who treats folks right
> > >> is worth extra money in my book. However if that dealer offers to
> > >> beat an out of town offer only after I've wasted 300+ miles, they
> > >> tend to get removed from the "treats loyal customers right" category
> > >> in a hurry.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>--
> > >>Evolution is merely survival of the minimally adequate
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>

 

Black book is available on the internet as well I dont have the link off
hand but I'll look for it.
Maybe "Link Master" Bill has it, before I start looking?


"cactuscowboy" <cactuscowboy@bresnan.net> wrote in message
news:ntGdnWZTF8mSkh7dRVn-gw@bresnan.com...
> It sounds like you had a bad experience with a rookie salesman. "Losing"
> keys to hold customers captive is simply inexcusable. I'll be the first
to
> admit that the auto industry has earned the bad reputation they suffer
from.
>
> It's NADA. That's the 'book' that most lenders use, at least in this
area.
> Kelley Blue Book is different. You can access the NADA consumer site and
> Kelley on the internet. There's also the "Black Book", but that's
strictly
> wholesale values and available only to dealers, AFAIK. Funny thing about
> the three books, they never agree! Sometimes recent auction reports are a
> more accurate indicator of actual cash values. Add to the mix supply and
> demand in your local area. Suppose (for example) you're trading in a blue
> Dodge Intrepid and the dealer has 6 Intrepids on the lot, 4 of which are
> blue. He ideally would only stock only 1 or 2 used Intrepids for
inventory,
> and blue is the slowest seller. Bummer! Don't be shocked if that dealer
> shows a trade allowance way back of book. The point is, establishing
values
> on trade vehicles is rarely easy. That's not to say that your experience
> was routine. IMO, and based on your description, your 80 minute trade
> appraisal was poorly handled.
>
> Best regards,
> Dave Rose
> Cactus Cowboy
> Big Wonderful Wyoming
> '49 ****** Pickup (parts truck)
> '62 ****** Pickup 4WD 226
> '98 XJ Sport
> O|||||||O
>
> "Roy J" <spamless@microsoft.net> wrote in message
> news:I%xgc.17$aW2.23690@news.uswest.net...
> > Oh PLEEZEEE, give me a break! The last time I did a new vehicle
> > I walked in, asked if they would give me Bluebook wholesale for
> > my trade and the advertised price (last weeks paper) for a common
> > model with standard options. Cash for the difference, no
> > financing issues. They said sure.
> >
> > Then the fun began. For openers, the way they figured it and the
> > way I figure it were $2200 apart. I had to "show" them how to
> > read the Naad (SP?) Bluebook, you know you really do have to add
> > and subtract for condition, mileage, and options? The salesman
> > didn't seem to know. Then they took my trade out for a test
> > drive. When they came back, they 'LOST' my keys. Multiple trips
> > by the salesman to the Manger's office. Every trick in the book.
> >
> > Took an hour and twenty minutes to get the deal they agreed to in
> > the first 10 minutes. And $2200 difference in my net.
> >
> > I actually teach neogotiation skills. The above description was
> > NOT negotation, there was no exchange of information or
> > positions. It was strictly a case of the dealer trying to back
> > out on a previously agreed on deal. And of course, I happily use
> > this example in the classes I teach. Am I one of your "10%" that
> > complains all the time? No, only when I am forced to deal with
> > unethical people.
> >
> > For many people, buying a new car is similar to listening to
> > someone run their fingernails down the blackboard for several
> > hours. And the TV crews have a field day with hidden cams in the
> > finance office. Quit trying to defend yourself to this crew, you
> > won't get any sympathy.
> >
> > cactuscowboy wrote:
> >
> > > It sounds like you prefer receiving a 'bottom dollar' price without
> > > negotiation, or as you put it, "playing head games" & "childish
stunts".
> If
> > > that's what you want, simply ask for it the next time you car shop.
As
> a
> > > salesman, I'm perfectly happy to accomodate such demands. Keep in
mind
> that
> > > negotiation is a buying/selling skill and you're more likely to get a
> better
> > > price by effectively negotiating versus demanding bottom dollar.
Don't
> view
> > > negotiating as confrontation, personal attacks, game playing, etc.....
> > > It's not.
> > >
> > > There is absolutely nothing wrong with any dealer asking full list
price
> and
> > > showing ACV on a trade. Don't ever take that as an insult. Some
> customers
> > > (very few actually) will sign up and take delivery when asked for all
> the
> > > money. Guess what? Those customers are by far the happiest! They'll
> tell
> > > friends and family about the great deal they got and send us
referrals.
> Did
> > > they really get a great deal? Yes, in their minds they did, and
that's
> all
> > > that really matters.
> > >
> > > In contrast, there are "ten percenters", the customers who negotiate
> > > relentlessly until we're discounting below invoice, going into
holdback.
> > > (They actually will drive 300 miles to save $50 - I've seen it). I've
> sold
> > > my share of ten percenters and they're usually the biggest complainers
> in
> > > the service and parts department. Some will bitterly complain to
their
> > > friends and family about getting their "heads ripped off" and how all
> car
> > > dealers are "crooks". In many cases, we're talking about people who
are
> mad
> > > at world and unhappy in general.
> > >
> > > Buying vehicles is never a simple matter of getting the "best price".
> There
> > > are many other factors such as supply and demand on a particular
model,
> how
> > > long the desired vehicle has been in the dealer's inventory, what the
> > > customer is trading in, customers with negative equity in a trade
and/or
> bad
> > > credit, the car store's sales philosophy and style, etc........
> > >
> > > My advice is to lighten up a bit the next time you buy. Having less
of
> an
> > > adversarial attitude will do much to make car shopping more enjoyable.
> Also
> > > consider that a true sales professional will try to control the sales
> > > process by following the basics: greeting, establish rapport, fact
> > > finding/assess needs, presentation/walk around, demo drive, write up,
> and
> > > delivery. Shortcutting that process is unfair to the customer and the
> car
> > > dealer. Plan to spend 45 minutes, or longer if you buy and the dealer
> does
> > > a spot delivery. If 45 minutes is too much to ask of your "precious
> time",
> > > plan to walk in and write a check for an advertised special when it
> appears
> > > in the newspaper.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Dave Rose
> > > Cactus Cowboy
> > > Big Wonderful Wyoming
> > > '49 ****** Pickup (parts truck)
> > > '62 ****** Pickup 4WD 226
> > > '98 XJ Sport
> > > O|||||||O
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "L0nD0t.$t0we11" <"L0nD0t.$t0we11"@ComcastDot.Net> wrote in message
> > > news:du0gc.8345$aM4.20562@attbi_s53...
> > >
> > >>Roughly 4/15/04 21:51, cactuscowboy's monkeys randomly typed:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>I sell Jeeps. Did you really get a "better deal" 170 miles away?
> > >
> > > Perhaps
> > >
> > >>>you didn't negotiate properly with your local dealer?
> > >>
> > >> Some dealers are just more interested in playing head games than
> > >> making money. I would drive 170 miles and pay *more* to make sure
> > >> this type never accidentally makes as much as a penny from me.
> > >>
> > >> On the other hand, a dealershipt that does not insist on playing
> > >> games or wasting my valuable time in "hang on, gotta go check with
> > >> the manager" childish stunts can make extra money... my time is
> > >> worth more than a few lousy dollars.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>Where I work, we
> > >>>don't lose deals over price to competing dealers, no matter where
> > >
> > > they're
> > >
> > >>>located.
> > >>
> > >> Note that I am not saying your dealership does this, but if I come
> > >> there and get one price, then drive 170 miles and get a far better
> > >> one, the odds of me wasting my valuable time coming back to you
> > >> to see if you'll match or beat it are zero and none. If you offer
> > >> the cheaper price only after I've found a better one, you have
> > >> already kissed the deal goodbye by playing games. You can add
> > >> an additional penalty factor if I've been getting my vehicle
> > >> serviced at your dealership for the past couple years and then
> > >> some salestype tries this on what would be presumed to be a
> > >> reasonably loyal customer. Granted before I go to the front of
> > >> a dealer I'll be very likely to ask the service writer which
> > >> salesman pisses him off the least.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Was that factored into the alleged "better deal"?
> > >>
> > >> It ain't always money.
> > >>
> > >>>I live in a small town in NW Wyoming. With very, very few
exceptions,
> I
> > >
> > > do
> > >
> > >>>all of my shopping locally. It's important to me that I support my
> > >
> > > friends
> > >
> > >>>and neighbors and the local economy. My car store supports our
> > >
> > > community,
> > >
> > >>>giving generously to non-profit organizations, sponsoring the county
> > >
> > > fair,
> > >
> > >>>4H programs, etc...... In contrast, residents here who spend money
out
> > >
> > > of
> > >
> > >>>state (typically Billings, Montana) contribute absolutely NOTHING to
> the
> > >>>local Wyoming economy.
> > >>
> > >> Yeah, I gotta agree there... a local dealer who treats folks right
> > >> is worth extra money in my book. However if that dealer offers to
> > >> beat an out of town offer only after I've wasted 300+ miles, they
> > >> tend to get removed from the "treats loyal customers right" category
> > >> in a hurry.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>--
> > >>Evolution is merely survival of the minimally adequate
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>

 

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 21:24:11 -0600, "cactuscowboy"
<cactuscowboy@bresnan.net> wrote:

>My job requires that I negotiate price with customers. I'm a skilled
>negotiator and I enjoy it.

If you're skilled, you get a lot of extra money from them. Of course
you would enjoy that.

---
Bob