Brian

In article <KtAUe.106041$G8.65843@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> ,
"Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote:

> So what's the crack on New Orleans ?

Here's the short answer(s):

The mayor of NO delayed in ordering an evacutation, then failed to
provide the means to evacuate, by not using the many buses now flooded.

The mayor also sent thousands of people to the Superdome & the
convention center without providing sufficient personnel & materiel
resources for relief.

The governor of Louisiana failed to:
Call up Nat'l Guard troops to aid in pre-hurricane evacuation &
post-hurricane relief, waiting until Thursday to request the 40,000 that
were needed the day after. Actually, they may not have needed that many
if they'd been on the ball before the storm landed.

Invoke a multi-state aid compact to draw resources from other states
(Texas being the only one not affected by the storm).

There are conflicting reports on whether the governor made a timely
declaration of a state of emergency.

Both parties failed to communicate with each other, the public, and the
Federal government.

B

--
Brian Heller

It is easier to tame wild beasts
than to conquer the human mind.

Earle Horton

It is hard to get the money to prepare and empower a staff, when all you
have is projections of what is needed. In Colorado, and most other places,
we have what is called a "hundred year flood", a "five hundred year flood",
etc. You can get away with ignoring what a five hundred year flood is
capable of, for a while. Once you get one, you are going to be pretty well
prepared for the next one, for a generation at least. I just saw on the
Spanish TV, that they are sending cops and fire fighters who lived through
the Trade Center attack, to help out. Nothing beats experience, to tell
what works and what doesn't.

An analytical critique is going to ruffle a lot of feathers. Let's hope
that we get one anyway.

Earle

"Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:JxX2tWiP5BNp-pn2-pEfnfsgpCOE1@anon.none.net...
> I give Nagin credit for saving a lot of lives with his no-nonsense
> run-up evacuation. He deserves kudos for that part, but he either
> needed help from a prepared and empowered staff or he needed to spend
> less time time with a camera in his face while he took care of the
> underlying details. If an analytical critique of this whole goat rope
> is ever published, I think that the problem was started by local
> failure to intigate actions other than evacuation and compounded at
> every level above that.
>
> On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 03:24:49 UTC "SoK66" <Nospam@SoK.net> wrote:
>
> > I t seems fairly obvious now that between Mayor Nagin and Governor
Blanco,
> > local leadership completely dropped the ball.
> >
> > Their efforts to evacuate last year before Ivan hit the Gulf Coast were
> > roundly criticised for the exact same reasons as what just happened.
They
> > had no plan to evacuate the immobile folks that ended up trapped in the
> > Dome, etc. Last year they just got lucky, and looks like they didn't do
> > anything at all in the interveneing time period. While they have a well
> > documented evacuation plan for New Orleans, they never actually deployed
it.
> > Thats why the busses were flooded in a lot right next to the Dome, etc.
> > Worse, the NO cops bailed, the NO Fire Dept evacuated THEMSELVES, rather
> > than staying to help, etc. That the Feds were slow to respond I think
> > there's no question, but the locals trully screwed the dog.
> >
> > Local efforst are expected to carry the first few days of natural
disaters
> > like this, while Federal assets are organized & deployed. That's what
> > happened last year when 4 hurricanes in succession hit Florida. That
State
> > has a much better plan than Louisiana, and it showed. Funny that the
same
> > Michael Brown who just got made the scape-goat of Katrinma was hailed
for
> > his efforts last year in Florida.
> >
> >
> >
> > "Matt Macchiarolo" <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote in message
> > news:dYednRiOQt0UFb7eRVn-jw@comcast.com...
> > >
> > > <Matt Osborn> wrote in message
> > > news:jop6i19bn372iitpvpvrprckrhuevvblmo@4ax.com...
> > >> On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 17:45:58 -0400, "Matt Macchiarolo"
> > >> <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>><Matt Osborn> wrote in message
> > >>>news:ed96i1tle7q5kk3pbmpb22j9etm5vbcsel@4ax.com ...
> > >>>> On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 12:09:15 -0400, "Matt Macchiarolo"
> > >>>> <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>The failures of government in this disaster aren't recent, they are
a
> > >>>>>culmination of the last 30 years or so, inasmuch as recognizing the
> > >>>>>need
> > >>>>>for
> > >>>>>building a levee to withstand a Cat 5 storm, competent evacuation
> > >>>>>planning,
> > >>>>>and the lack of motivation for federal response.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Building the levees to protect against a cat 5 hurricane are a
state
> > >>>> responsibility. I believe the Federal government has been more
than
> > >>>> generous in providing assistance in this regard. New Orleans is
not,
> > >>>> and should not be, a federal responsibility. In any case, the
levees
> > >>>> will not protect against the damage caused by a cat5 hurricane.
The
> > >>>> city would have flooded from the rain, even had the levees held.
> > >>>
> > >>>Never said building the levees were a federal responsibility, please
> > >>>re-read
> > >>>my post.
> > >>
> > >> You wrote:
> > >>
> > >> "The failures of government in this disaster aren't recent, they are
a
> > >> culmination of the last 30 years or so, inasmuch as recognizing the
> > >> need for building a levee to withstand a Cat 5 storm, competent
> > >> evacuation planning, and the lack of motivation for federal
response."
> > >>
> > >> Your post could be reasonably read to imply that fed was responsible.
> > >> I did not (and still do not) understand the intent of your post given
> > >> that the only named government was the federal government.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Then I clarify: Failures of every level of government. Local to
recognize
> > > the what needed to be done to protect the citizens living there, local
and
> > > state for competent evacuation planning, and lacking motivation for
> > > federal response when it was clear a strong federal response was
needed
> > > but not delivered.
> > >
> > >>>> The Feds delivered seven trailers of food and water to the
Superdome
> > >>>> the day the hurricane hit and seven more trailers the very next
day.
> > >>>
> > >>>According to a DHS spokesman, I suppose the people there who were
there
> > >>>dying of thirst were lying?
> > >>
> > >> I don't understand the meaning of this either. Normally I would take
> > >> this as sarcasm, but perhaps you meant something else. You really
> > >> should state what you mean to avoid misunderstandings.
> > >>
> > >> The 'refugees' fled their homes for the Superdome on Monday morning.
> > >> I pointed out that the Feds delivered seven trailers of food and
water
> > >> on that very same Monday. If anybody said they were dying of thirst
on
> > >> Monday, then yes, I would say they're were lying or else they had a
> > >> hell of head start.
> > >>
> > >> Of course, running seven trailers of food and water into the face of
a
> > >> cat 4 hurricane may not seem like much to some, but I was sure
> > >> impressed. It certainly was much more than the locals managed to
> > >> accomplish.
> > >
> > > You are still basing this assertion on a statement from a spokesman
for
> > > the Dept of Homeland Security. I would be interested to see a
confirmation
> > > of the assertion, can you cite one? If it is true, the supplies did
seem
> > > to run out rather quickly and slow to be replenished.
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Will Honea

Earle Horton

It is hard to get the money to prepare and empower a staff, when all you
have is projections of what is needed. In Colorado, and most other places,
we have what is called a "hundred year flood", a "five hundred year flood",
etc. You can get away with ignoring what a five hundred year flood is
capable of, for a while. Once you get one, you are going to be pretty well
prepared for the next one, for a generation at least. I just saw on the
Spanish TV, that they are sending cops and fire fighters who lived through
the Trade Center attack, to help out. Nothing beats experience, to tell
what works and what doesn't.

An analytical critique is going to ruffle a lot of feathers. Let's hope
that we get one anyway.

Earle

"Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:JxX2tWiP5BNp-pn2-pEfnfsgpCOE1@anon.none.net...
> I give Nagin credit for saving a lot of lives with his no-nonsense
> run-up evacuation. He deserves kudos for that part, but he either
> needed help from a prepared and empowered staff or he needed to spend
> less time time with a camera in his face while he took care of the
> underlying details. If an analytical critique of this whole goat rope
> is ever published, I think that the problem was started by local
> failure to intigate actions other than evacuation and compounded at
> every level above that.
>
> On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 03:24:49 UTC "SoK66" <Nospam@SoK.net> wrote:
>
> > I t seems fairly obvious now that between Mayor Nagin and Governor
Blanco,
> > local leadership completely dropped the ball.
> >
> > Their efforts to evacuate last year before Ivan hit the Gulf Coast were
> > roundly criticised for the exact same reasons as what just happened.
They
> > had no plan to evacuate the immobile folks that ended up trapped in the
> > Dome, etc. Last year they just got lucky, and looks like they didn't do
> > anything at all in the interveneing time period. While they have a well
> > documented evacuation plan for New Orleans, they never actually deployed
it.
> > Thats why the busses were flooded in a lot right next to the Dome, etc.
> > Worse, the NO cops bailed, the NO Fire Dept evacuated THEMSELVES, rather
> > than staying to help, etc. That the Feds were slow to respond I think
> > there's no question, but the locals trully screwed the dog.
> >
> > Local efforst are expected to carry the first few days of natural
disaters
> > like this, while Federal assets are organized & deployed. That's what
> > happened last year when 4 hurricanes in succession hit Florida. That
State
> > has a much better plan than Louisiana, and it showed. Funny that the
same
> > Michael Brown who just got made the scape-goat of Katrinma was hailed
for
> > his efforts last year in Florida.
> >
> >
> >
> > "Matt Macchiarolo" <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote in message
> > news:dYednRiOQt0UFb7eRVn-jw@comcast.com...
> > >
> > > <Matt Osborn> wrote in message
> > > news:jop6i19bn372iitpvpvrprckrhuevvblmo@4ax.com...
> > >> On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 17:45:58 -0400, "Matt Macchiarolo"
> > >> <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>><Matt Osborn> wrote in message
> > >>>news:ed96i1tle7q5kk3pbmpb22j9etm5vbcsel@4ax.com ...
> > >>>> On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 12:09:15 -0400, "Matt Macchiarolo"
> > >>>> <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>The failures of government in this disaster aren't recent, they are
a
> > >>>>>culmination of the last 30 years or so, inasmuch as recognizing the
> > >>>>>need
> > >>>>>for
> > >>>>>building a levee to withstand a Cat 5 storm, competent evacuation
> > >>>>>planning,
> > >>>>>and the lack of motivation for federal response.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Building the levees to protect against a cat 5 hurricane are a
state
> > >>>> responsibility. I believe the Federal government has been more
than
> > >>>> generous in providing assistance in this regard. New Orleans is
not,
> > >>>> and should not be, a federal responsibility. In any case, the
levees
> > >>>> will not protect against the damage caused by a cat5 hurricane.
The
> > >>>> city would have flooded from the rain, even had the levees held.
> > >>>
> > >>>Never said building the levees were a federal responsibility, please
> > >>>re-read
> > >>>my post.
> > >>
> > >> You wrote:
> > >>
> > >> "The failures of government in this disaster aren't recent, they are
a
> > >> culmination of the last 30 years or so, inasmuch as recognizing the
> > >> need for building a levee to withstand a Cat 5 storm, competent
> > >> evacuation planning, and the lack of motivation for federal
response."
> > >>
> > >> Your post could be reasonably read to imply that fed was responsible.
> > >> I did not (and still do not) understand the intent of your post given
> > >> that the only named government was the federal government.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Then I clarify: Failures of every level of government. Local to
recognize
> > > the what needed to be done to protect the citizens living there, local
and
> > > state for competent evacuation planning, and lacking motivation for
> > > federal response when it was clear a strong federal response was
needed
> > > but not delivered.
> > >
> > >>>> The Feds delivered seven trailers of food and water to the
Superdome
> > >>>> the day the hurricane hit and seven more trailers the very next
day.
> > >>>
> > >>>According to a DHS spokesman, I suppose the people there who were
there
> > >>>dying of thirst were lying?
> > >>
> > >> I don't understand the meaning of this either. Normally I would take
> > >> this as sarcasm, but perhaps you meant something else. You really
> > >> should state what you mean to avoid misunderstandings.
> > >>
> > >> The 'refugees' fled their homes for the Superdome on Monday morning.
> > >> I pointed out that the Feds delivered seven trailers of food and
water
> > >> on that very same Monday. If anybody said they were dying of thirst
on
> > >> Monday, then yes, I would say they're were lying or else they had a
> > >> hell of head start.
> > >>
> > >> Of course, running seven trailers of food and water into the face of
a
> > >> cat 4 hurricane may not seem like much to some, but I was sure
> > >> impressed. It certainly was much more than the locals managed to
> > >> accomplish.
> > >
> > > You are still basing this assertion on a statement from a spokesman
for
> > > the Dept of Homeland Security. I would be interested to see a
confirmation
> > > of the assertion, can you cite one? If it is true, the supplies did
seem
> > > to run out rather quickly and slow to be replenished.
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Will Honea

Earle Horton

It is hard to get the money to prepare and empower a staff, when all you
have is projections of what is needed. In Colorado, and most other places,
we have what is called a "hundred year flood", a "five hundred year flood",
etc. You can get away with ignoring what a five hundred year flood is
capable of, for a while. Once you get one, you are going to be pretty well
prepared for the next one, for a generation at least. I just saw on the
Spanish TV, that they are sending cops and fire fighters who lived through
the Trade Center attack, to help out. Nothing beats experience, to tell
what works and what doesn't.

An analytical critique is going to ruffle a lot of feathers. Let's hope
that we get one anyway.

Earle

"Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:JxX2tWiP5BNp-pn2-pEfnfsgpCOE1@anon.none.net...
> I give Nagin credit for saving a lot of lives with his no-nonsense
> run-up evacuation. He deserves kudos for that part, but he either
> needed help from a prepared and empowered staff or he needed to spend
> less time time with a camera in his face while he took care of the
> underlying details. If an analytical critique of this whole goat rope
> is ever published, I think that the problem was started by local
> failure to intigate actions other than evacuation and compounded at
> every level above that.
>
> On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 03:24:49 UTC "SoK66" <Nospam@SoK.net> wrote:
>
> > I t seems fairly obvious now that between Mayor Nagin and Governor
Blanco,
> > local leadership completely dropped the ball.
> >
> > Their efforts to evacuate last year before Ivan hit the Gulf Coast were
> > roundly criticised for the exact same reasons as what just happened.
They
> > had no plan to evacuate the immobile folks that ended up trapped in the
> > Dome, etc. Last year they just got lucky, and looks like they didn't do
> > anything at all in the interveneing time period. While they have a well
> > documented evacuation plan for New Orleans, they never actually deployed
it.
> > Thats why the busses were flooded in a lot right next to the Dome, etc.
> > Worse, the NO cops bailed, the NO Fire Dept evacuated THEMSELVES, rather
> > than staying to help, etc. That the Feds were slow to respond I think
> > there's no question, but the locals trully screwed the dog.
> >
> > Local efforst are expected to carry the first few days of natural
disaters
> > like this, while Federal assets are organized & deployed. That's what
> > happened last year when 4 hurricanes in succession hit Florida. That
State
> > has a much better plan than Louisiana, and it showed. Funny that the
same
> > Michael Brown who just got made the scape-goat of Katrinma was hailed
for
> > his efforts last year in Florida.
> >
> >
> >
> > "Matt Macchiarolo" <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote in message
> > news:dYednRiOQt0UFb7eRVn-jw@comcast.com...
> > >
> > > <Matt Osborn> wrote in message
> > > news:jop6i19bn372iitpvpvrprckrhuevvblmo@4ax.com...
> > >> On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 17:45:58 -0400, "Matt Macchiarolo"
> > >> <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>><Matt Osborn> wrote in message
> > >>>news:ed96i1tle7q5kk3pbmpb22j9etm5vbcsel@4ax.com ...
> > >>>> On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 12:09:15 -0400, "Matt Macchiarolo"
> > >>>> <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>The failures of government in this disaster aren't recent, they are
a
> > >>>>>culmination of the last 30 years or so, inasmuch as recognizing the
> > >>>>>need
> > >>>>>for
> > >>>>>building a levee to withstand a Cat 5 storm, competent evacuation
> > >>>>>planning,
> > >>>>>and the lack of motivation for federal response.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Building the levees to protect against a cat 5 hurricane are a
state
> > >>>> responsibility. I believe the Federal government has been more
than
> > >>>> generous in providing assistance in this regard. New Orleans is
not,
> > >>>> and should not be, a federal responsibility. In any case, the
levees
> > >>>> will not protect against the damage caused by a cat5 hurricane.
The
> > >>>> city would have flooded from the rain, even had the levees held.
> > >>>
> > >>>Never said building the levees were a federal responsibility, please
> > >>>re-read
> > >>>my post.
> > >>
> > >> You wrote:
> > >>
> > >> "The failures of government in this disaster aren't recent, they are
a
> > >> culmination of the last 30 years or so, inasmuch as recognizing the
> > >> need for building a levee to withstand a Cat 5 storm, competent
> > >> evacuation planning, and the lack of motivation for federal
response."
> > >>
> > >> Your post could be reasonably read to imply that fed was responsible.
> > >> I did not (and still do not) understand the intent of your post given
> > >> that the only named government was the federal government.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Then I clarify: Failures of every level of government. Local to
recognize
> > > the what needed to be done to protect the citizens living there, local
and
> > > state for competent evacuation planning, and lacking motivation for
> > > federal response when it was clear a strong federal response was
needed
> > > but not delivered.
> > >
> > >>>> The Feds delivered seven trailers of food and water to the
Superdome
> > >>>> the day the hurricane hit and seven more trailers the very next
day.
> > >>>
> > >>>According to a DHS spokesman, I suppose the people there who were
there
> > >>>dying of thirst were lying?
> > >>
> > >> I don't understand the meaning of this either. Normally I would take
> > >> this as sarcasm, but perhaps you meant something else. You really
> > >> should state what you mean to avoid misunderstandings.
> > >>
> > >> The 'refugees' fled their homes for the Superdome on Monday morning.
> > >> I pointed out that the Feds delivered seven trailers of food and
water
> > >> on that very same Monday. If anybody said they were dying of thirst
on
> > >> Monday, then yes, I would say they're were lying or else they had a
> > >> hell of head start.
> > >>
> > >> Of course, running seven trailers of food and water into the face of
a
> > >> cat 4 hurricane may not seem like much to some, but I was sure
> > >> impressed. It certainly was much more than the locals managed to
> > >> accomplish.
> > >
> > > You are still basing this assertion on a statement from a spokesman
for
> > > the Dept of Homeland Security. I would be interested to see a
confirmation
> > > of the assertion, can you cite one? If it is true, the supplies did
seem
> > > to run out rather quickly and slow to be replenished.
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Will Honea

Earle Horton

It is hard to get the money to prepare and empower a staff, when all you
have is projections of what is needed. In Colorado, and most other places,
we have what is called a "hundred year flood", a "five hundred year flood",
etc. You can get away with ignoring what a five hundred year flood is
capable of, for a while. Once you get one, you are going to be pretty well
prepared for the next one, for a generation at least. I just saw on the
Spanish TV, that they are sending cops and fire fighters who lived through
the Trade Center attack, to help out. Nothing beats experience, to tell
what works and what doesn't.

An analytical critique is going to ruffle a lot of feathers. Let's hope
that we get one anyway.

Earle

"Will Honea" <whonea@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:JxX2tWiP5BNp-pn2-pEfnfsgpCOE1@anon.none.net...
> I give Nagin credit for saving a lot of lives with his no-nonsense
> run-up evacuation. He deserves kudos for that part, but he either
> needed help from a prepared and empowered staff or he needed to spend
> less time time with a camera in his face while he took care of the
> underlying details. If an analytical critique of this whole goat rope
> is ever published, I think that the problem was started by local
> failure to intigate actions other than evacuation and compounded at
> every level above that.
>
> On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 03:24:49 UTC "SoK66" <Nospam@SoK.net> wrote:
>
> > I t seems fairly obvious now that between Mayor Nagin and Governor
Blanco,
> > local leadership completely dropped the ball.
> >
> > Their efforts to evacuate last year before Ivan hit the Gulf Coast were
> > roundly criticised for the exact same reasons as what just happened.
They
> > had no plan to evacuate the immobile folks that ended up trapped in the
> > Dome, etc. Last year they just got lucky, and looks like they didn't do
> > anything at all in the interveneing time period. While they have a well
> > documented evacuation plan for New Orleans, they never actually deployed
it.
> > Thats why the busses were flooded in a lot right next to the Dome, etc.
> > Worse, the NO cops bailed, the NO Fire Dept evacuated THEMSELVES, rather
> > than staying to help, etc. That the Feds were slow to respond I think
> > there's no question, but the locals trully screwed the dog.
> >
> > Local efforst are expected to carry the first few days of natural
disaters
> > like this, while Federal assets are organized & deployed. That's what
> > happened last year when 4 hurricanes in succession hit Florida. That
State
> > has a much better plan than Louisiana, and it showed. Funny that the
same
> > Michael Brown who just got made the scape-goat of Katrinma was hailed
for
> > his efforts last year in Florida.
> >
> >
> >
> > "Matt Macchiarolo" <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote in message
> > news:dYednRiOQt0UFb7eRVn-jw@comcast.com...
> > >
> > > <Matt Osborn> wrote in message
> > > news:jop6i19bn372iitpvpvrprckrhuevvblmo@4ax.com...
> > >> On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 17:45:58 -0400, "Matt Macchiarolo"
> > >> <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>><Matt Osborn> wrote in message
> > >>>news:ed96i1tle7q5kk3pbmpb22j9etm5vbcsel@4ax.com ...
> > >>>> On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 12:09:15 -0400, "Matt Macchiarolo"
> > >>>> <matt@nospamplease.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>The failures of government in this disaster aren't recent, they are
a
> > >>>>>culmination of the last 30 years or so, inasmuch as recognizing the
> > >>>>>need
> > >>>>>for
> > >>>>>building a levee to withstand a Cat 5 storm, competent evacuation
> > >>>>>planning,
> > >>>>>and the lack of motivation for federal response.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Building the levees to protect against a cat 5 hurricane are a
state
> > >>>> responsibility. I believe the Federal government has been more
than
> > >>>> generous in providing assistance in this regard. New Orleans is
not,
> > >>>> and should not be, a federal responsibility. In any case, the
levees
> > >>>> will not protect against the damage caused by a cat5 hurricane.
The
> > >>>> city would have flooded from the rain, even had the levees held.
> > >>>
> > >>>Never said building the levees were a federal responsibility, please
> > >>>re-read
> > >>>my post.
> > >>
> > >> You wrote:
> > >>
> > >> "The failures of government in this disaster aren't recent, they are
a
> > >> culmination of the last 30 years or so, inasmuch as recognizing the
> > >> need for building a levee to withstand a Cat 5 storm, competent
> > >> evacuation planning, and the lack of motivation for federal
response."
> > >>
> > >> Your post could be reasonably read to imply that fed was responsible.
> > >> I did not (and still do not) understand the intent of your post given
> > >> that the only named government was the federal government.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Then I clarify: Failures of every level of government. Local to
recognize
> > > the what needed to be done to protect the citizens living there, local
and
> > > state for competent evacuation planning, and lacking motivation for
> > > federal response when it was clear a strong federal response was
needed
> > > but not delivered.
> > >
> > >>>> The Feds delivered seven trailers of food and water to the
Superdome
> > >>>> the day the hurricane hit and seven more trailers the very next
day.
> > >>>
> > >>>According to a DHS spokesman, I suppose the people there who were
there
> > >>>dying of thirst were lying?
> > >>
> > >> I don't understand the meaning of this either. Normally I would take
> > >> this as sarcasm, but perhaps you meant something else. You really
> > >> should state what you mean to avoid misunderstandings.
> > >>
> > >> The 'refugees' fled their homes for the Superdome on Monday morning.
> > >> I pointed out that the Feds delivered seven trailers of food and
water
> > >> on that very same Monday. If anybody said they were dying of thirst
on
> > >> Monday, then yes, I would say they're were lying or else they had a
> > >> hell of head start.
> > >>
> > >> Of course, running seven trailers of food and water into the face of
a
> > >> cat 4 hurricane may not seem like much to some, but I was sure
> > >> impressed. It certainly was much more than the locals managed to
> > >> accomplish.
> > >
> > > You are still basing this assertion on a statement from a spokesman
for
> > > the Dept of Homeland Security. I would be interested to see a
confirmation
> > > of the assertion, can you cite one? If it is true, the supplies did
seem
> > > to run out rather quickly and slow to be replenished.
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Will Honea

DougW

Brian did pass the time by typing:
> "DougW" wrote:

>> They are also responsible for the screwed up mess that is our refining
>> industry. Thankfully the fed has now pulled head out of **** and lifted
>> many of the regulations and red-tape. Still though it will take years
>> to build up the capacity we actually need.
>
> By then there won't be enough oil to to run the refineries.

There will be, that's the energy chicken-littles that have been clucking
we will be out of oil in the next ten years, every year since the last
oil shortage. There are lots of oil fields even larger than sandy arabia.
Problem is they are in less than desirable parts of the world. Even the
Athabasca Oil Sands are a huge reserve. Just too expensive (up till now)
to produce.

I do expect to see ethanol production increase as the next liquid fuel
or as part of the fuel-cell industry. That's where we should go since
it's a fully sustainable product.

--
DougW

DougW

Brian did pass the time by typing:
> "DougW" wrote:

>> They are also responsible for the screwed up mess that is our refining
>> industry. Thankfully the fed has now pulled head out of **** and lifted
>> many of the regulations and red-tape. Still though it will take years
>> to build up the capacity we actually need.
>
> By then there won't be enough oil to to run the refineries.

There will be, that's the energy chicken-littles that have been clucking
we will be out of oil in the next ten years, every year since the last
oil shortage. There are lots of oil fields even larger than sandy arabia.
Problem is they are in less than desirable parts of the world. Even the
Athabasca Oil Sands are a huge reserve. Just too expensive (up till now)
to produce.

I do expect to see ethanol production increase as the next liquid fuel
or as part of the fuel-cell industry. That's where we should go since
it's a fully sustainable product.

--
DougW

DougW

Brian did pass the time by typing:
> "DougW" wrote:

>> They are also responsible for the screwed up mess that is our refining
>> industry. Thankfully the fed has now pulled head out of **** and lifted
>> many of the regulations and red-tape. Still though it will take years
>> to build up the capacity we actually need.
>
> By then there won't be enough oil to to run the refineries.

There will be, that's the energy chicken-littles that have been clucking
we will be out of oil in the next ten years, every year since the last
oil shortage. There are lots of oil fields even larger than sandy arabia.
Problem is they are in less than desirable parts of the world. Even the
Athabasca Oil Sands are a huge reserve. Just too expensive (up till now)
to produce.

I do expect to see ethanol production increase as the next liquid fuel
or as part of the fuel-cell industry. That's where we should go since
it's a fully sustainable product.

--
DougW

DougW

Brian did pass the time by typing:
> "DougW" wrote:

>> They are also responsible for the screwed up mess that is our refining
>> industry. Thankfully the fed has now pulled head out of **** and lifted
>> many of the regulations and red-tape. Still though it will take years
>> to build up the capacity we actually need.
>
> By then there won't be enough oil to to run the refineries.

There will be, that's the energy chicken-littles that have been clucking
we will be out of oil in the next ten years, every year since the last
oil shortage. There are lots of oil fields even larger than sandy arabia.
Problem is they are in less than desirable parts of the world. Even the
Athabasca Oil Sands are a huge reserve. Just too expensive (up till now)
to produce.

I do expect to see ethanol production increase as the next liquid fuel
or as part of the fuel-cell industry. That's where we should go since
it's a fully sustainable product.

--
DougW

Matt Osborn

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 15:14:01 -0500, "DougW"
<post.replies@invalid.address> wrote:

>I do expect to see ethanol production increase as the next liquid fuel
>or as part of the fuel-cell industry. That's where we should go since
>it's a fully sustainable product.

As I understand it, it takes more than one unit of energy to create
one unit of energy from ethanol. It is an energy losing endeavor.

Ethanol can be said to be efficient only when the power from ethanol
replaces the power from fossil fuels in the production of ethanol.

Currently, ethanol is an expensive subsidy to corn growing states and
has no chance of becoming a useful fuel.




-- msosborn at msosborn dot com