Kevin Gunther

"Lee Ayrton" <layrton@panix.com> wrote in message
news:dpjjga$j2h$1@reader2.panix.com...
> Kevin Gunther wrote:
> [snip]
> > I had a pisser of a time with my 90HP Honda 4 stroke outboard this past
> > spring. Clogged passageways, rough running, crapped up lines etc. Cost
me
> > over $500 to have repaired, and it had to be done a second time!!(No
cost)
> > My mechanic (Chris) was quoted in the Boat US article and I guess the
> > problem comes about when the two gasolines are mixed together. Forms a
> > sludge and just makes a royal mess!
>
> I'd be inclined to blame the ethanol for liberating accumulated varnish
> and sludge in a seasonal-use engine than for precipitates.

That might be a problem with an older engine, but this engine was only on
its fourth season. I had run it out, fogged it and stabil'ed it each fall.
It was the combination of the fuel types. Boaters all over the stases of NT
and CT were having this problem. Take a look at the BoatUS article.

KG
>
>
>

Kevin Gunther

"Lee Ayrton" <layrton@panix.com> wrote in message
news:dpjjga$j2h$1@reader2.panix.com...
> Kevin Gunther wrote:
> [snip]
> > I had a pisser of a time with my 90HP Honda 4 stroke outboard this past
> > spring. Clogged passageways, rough running, crapped up lines etc. Cost
me
> > over $500 to have repaired, and it had to be done a second time!!(No
cost)
> > My mechanic (Chris) was quoted in the Boat US article and I guess the
> > problem comes about when the two gasolines are mixed together. Forms a
> > sludge and just makes a royal mess!
>
> I'd be inclined to blame the ethanol for liberating accumulated varnish
> and sludge in a seasonal-use engine than for precipitates.

That might be a problem with an older engine, but this engine was only on
its fourth season. I had run it out, fogged it and stabil'ed it each fall.
It was the combination of the fuel types. Boaters all over the stases of NT
and CT were having this problem. Take a look at the BoatUS article.

KG
>
>
>

Bret Ludwig

Rich Hampel wrote:
> Definitely the FRG tanks made before the mid 80s are begining to show
> severe attack and 'penetration/leaking' .... and you definitely do not
> want free gasoline in the bilge of a boat ..... goes BOOM. The
> insurance underwriters that follow the boating industry are currently
> 'frantic' about the MTBE to ethanol changeover.

The resin systems used in fiberglass boats were never rated or
designed to be used for fuel storage. The experimental aircraft guys
were doing the same thing with the "idiot savant pickle fork" aka
Long-EZ and derivatives when the auto fuel STCs made it clear that
there was no magic juju that kept the museum piece Lyc from burning
"car gas". The Canard Pusher newsletter from Rutan said there was no
problem with it.....the BOAT GUYS had done it for decades!!...

Sadly the real fix is: open up the structure and put in a fuel cell
bladder or rotamold, or cut out the top tank glass and reglass it in
with a resin system known to be compatible with any fuel you can
imagine used in the next 20-30 years. If you are paying some boat shop
to do this it's going to be cheaper to buy a new hull.

Bret Ludwig

Rich Hampel wrote:
> Definitely the FRG tanks made before the mid 80s are begining to show
> severe attack and 'penetration/leaking' .... and you definitely do not
> want free gasoline in the bilge of a boat ..... goes BOOM. The
> insurance underwriters that follow the boating industry are currently
> 'frantic' about the MTBE to ethanol changeover.

The resin systems used in fiberglass boats were never rated or
designed to be used for fuel storage. The experimental aircraft guys
were doing the same thing with the "idiot savant pickle fork" aka
Long-EZ and derivatives when the auto fuel STCs made it clear that
there was no magic juju that kept the museum piece Lyc from burning
"car gas". The Canard Pusher newsletter from Rutan said there was no
problem with it.....the BOAT GUYS had done it for decades!!...

Sadly the real fix is: open up the structure and put in a fuel cell
bladder or rotamold, or cut out the top tank glass and reglass it in
with a resin system known to be compatible with any fuel you can
imagine used in the next 20-30 years. If you are paying some boat shop
to do this it's going to be cheaper to buy a new hull.

Bret Ludwig

Rich Hampel wrote:
> Definitely the FRG tanks made before the mid 80s are begining to show
> severe attack and 'penetration/leaking' .... and you definitely do not
> want free gasoline in the bilge of a boat ..... goes BOOM. The
> insurance underwriters that follow the boating industry are currently
> 'frantic' about the MTBE to ethanol changeover.

The resin systems used in fiberglass boats were never rated or
designed to be used for fuel storage. The experimental aircraft guys
were doing the same thing with the "idiot savant pickle fork" aka
Long-EZ and derivatives when the auto fuel STCs made it clear that
there was no magic juju that kept the museum piece Lyc from burning
"car gas". The Canard Pusher newsletter from Rutan said there was no
problem with it.....the BOAT GUYS had done it for decades!!...

Sadly the real fix is: open up the structure and put in a fuel cell
bladder or rotamold, or cut out the top tank glass and reglass it in
with a resin system known to be compatible with any fuel you can
imagine used in the next 20-30 years. If you are paying some boat shop
to do this it's going to be cheaper to buy a new hull.

Lee Ayrton

Awww, where's their sense of _adventure_?


Rich Hampel wrote:
> Definitely the FRG tanks made before the mid 80s are begining to show
> severe attack and 'penetration/leaking' .... and you definitely do not
> want free gasoline in the bilge of a boat ..... goes BOOM. The
> insurance underwriters that follow the boating industry are currently
> 'frantic' about the MTBE to ethanol changeover.
>
>
> In article <dpjeon$26i$1@reader2.panix.com>, Lee Ayrton
> <layrton@panix.com> wrote:
>
>
>>IANAPetrochemicalEngineer, but I can't find anything online about MTBE
>>and ethanol forming precipitates. I've found that the US EPA does
>>generally forbid mixing the two products in bulk, but there's no ban on
>>mixing in the consumer's tanks. The rational for the ban has to do with
>> increased Volatile Organic Compound emissions, not chemical
>>incompatibility.
>>
>>The following ethanol industry technical paper states that all
>>fiberglass tanks designed for gasoline are compatible with
>>gasoline/ethanol blends up to 10% ethanol, and that it has approval
>>letters on file from both Fluid Containment (formerly Owens Corning
>>Fiberglass) and Xerxes Corp, the two major commercial fiberglass tank
>>manufacturers. (pg. 16) It goes on to say that tank relining materials
>>using epoxy or polyester resins from the late 1970s and early 1980s are
>>not compatible. Page 18 has a short chart of compatible and
>>incompatible materials.
>>
>><URL:http://www.e85fuel.com/forsuppliers/rfa_technical_manual.pdf> Or:
>>
>><URL:http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache...el.com/forsupp
>>liers/rfa_technical_manual.pdf&hl=en>
>>
>>Without having looked at the OP's pdf I'm guessing that the boatyard is
>> having problems with boat tanks older than 1980.
>>
>>
>>reconair wrote:
>>
>>>There's really more to it than that. MTBE additives and Ethanol are not
>>>compatible and will cause precipitates to form that affects fuel line/fuel
>>>filter delivery and cause combustion problems. When switching from MTBE
>>>fuel to Ethanol fuel, make sure you run the tank near dry before refueling
>>>and vice versa. This will limit the effects of incompatibility.
>>>
>>>Scott
>>>91YJ
>>>"Rich Hampel" <RhmpL33@nospam.net> wrote in message
>>>news:040120061152437988%RhmpL33@nospam.net...
>>>
>>>
>>>>although this affects mainly boats, I thought I'd cross post this here
>>>>in case any of you have a fiberglass fuel tank.
>>>>
>>>>There are great 'problems' showing up due to the 'changeover' of
>>>>gasoline addives - MTBE to Ethanol: Fiberglass fuel tanks dissolving
>>>>and leaking, harmful destructive deposits formed inside engines, etc.
>>>>About half the USA states have already banned MTBE additive and are
>>>>rapidly changing over to an ethanol additive, the ethanol is quite
>>>>incompatible with most of the fiberglass resin used in fuel tanks. The
>>>>decomposition products of the 'melting/dissolving' resin doesnt burn
>>>>and will form vast and destructive deposits in the engine (similar to
>>>>putting sugar into the gasoline).
>>>>
>>>>for more info:
>>>>http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/at...ttachmentid=42
>>>>or BOATUS.com website.
>>>
>>>
>>>

Lee Ayrton

Awww, where's their sense of _adventure_?


Rich Hampel wrote:
> Definitely the FRG tanks made before the mid 80s are begining to show
> severe attack and 'penetration/leaking' .... and you definitely do not
> want free gasoline in the bilge of a boat ..... goes BOOM. The
> insurance underwriters that follow the boating industry are currently
> 'frantic' about the MTBE to ethanol changeover.
>
>
> In article <dpjeon$26i$1@reader2.panix.com>, Lee Ayrton
> <layrton@panix.com> wrote:
>
>
>>IANAPetrochemicalEngineer, but I can't find anything online about MTBE
>>and ethanol forming precipitates. I've found that the US EPA does
>>generally forbid mixing the two products in bulk, but there's no ban on
>>mixing in the consumer's tanks. The rational for the ban has to do with
>> increased Volatile Organic Compound emissions, not chemical
>>incompatibility.
>>
>>The following ethanol industry technical paper states that all
>>fiberglass tanks designed for gasoline are compatible with
>>gasoline/ethanol blends up to 10% ethanol, and that it has approval
>>letters on file from both Fluid Containment (formerly Owens Corning
>>Fiberglass) and Xerxes Corp, the two major commercial fiberglass tank
>>manufacturers. (pg. 16) It goes on to say that tank relining materials
>>using epoxy or polyester resins from the late 1970s and early 1980s are
>>not compatible. Page 18 has a short chart of compatible and
>>incompatible materials.
>>
>><URL:http://www.e85fuel.com/forsuppliers/rfa_technical_manual.pdf> Or:
>>
>><URL:http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache...el.com/forsupp
>>liers/rfa_technical_manual.pdf&hl=en>
>>
>>Without having looked at the OP's pdf I'm guessing that the boatyard is
>> having problems with boat tanks older than 1980.
>>
>>
>>reconair wrote:
>>
>>>There's really more to it than that. MTBE additives and Ethanol are not
>>>compatible and will cause precipitates to form that affects fuel line/fuel
>>>filter delivery and cause combustion problems. When switching from MTBE
>>>fuel to Ethanol fuel, make sure you run the tank near dry before refueling
>>>and vice versa. This will limit the effects of incompatibility.
>>>
>>>Scott
>>>91YJ
>>>"Rich Hampel" <RhmpL33@nospam.net> wrote in message
>>>news:040120061152437988%RhmpL33@nospam.net...
>>>
>>>
>>>>although this affects mainly boats, I thought I'd cross post this here
>>>>in case any of you have a fiberglass fuel tank.
>>>>
>>>>There are great 'problems' showing up due to the 'changeover' of
>>>>gasoline addives - MTBE to Ethanol: Fiberglass fuel tanks dissolving
>>>>and leaking, harmful destructive deposits formed inside engines, etc.
>>>>About half the USA states have already banned MTBE additive and are
>>>>rapidly changing over to an ethanol additive, the ethanol is quite
>>>>incompatible with most of the fiberglass resin used in fuel tanks. The
>>>>decomposition products of the 'melting/dissolving' resin doesnt burn
>>>>and will form vast and destructive deposits in the engine (similar to
>>>>putting sugar into the gasoline).
>>>>
>>>>for more info:
>>>>http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/at...ttachmentid=42
>>>>or BOATUS.com website.
>>>
>>>
>>>

Lee Ayrton

Awww, where's their sense of _adventure_?


Rich Hampel wrote:
> Definitely the FRG tanks made before the mid 80s are begining to show
> severe attack and 'penetration/leaking' .... and you definitely do not
> want free gasoline in the bilge of a boat ..... goes BOOM. The
> insurance underwriters that follow the boating industry are currently
> 'frantic' about the MTBE to ethanol changeover.
>
>
> In article <dpjeon$26i$1@reader2.panix.com>, Lee Ayrton
> <layrton@panix.com> wrote:
>
>
>>IANAPetrochemicalEngineer, but I can't find anything online about MTBE
>>and ethanol forming precipitates. I've found that the US EPA does
>>generally forbid mixing the two products in bulk, but there's no ban on
>>mixing in the consumer's tanks. The rational for the ban has to do with
>> increased Volatile Organic Compound emissions, not chemical
>>incompatibility.
>>
>>The following ethanol industry technical paper states that all
>>fiberglass tanks designed for gasoline are compatible with
>>gasoline/ethanol blends up to 10% ethanol, and that it has approval
>>letters on file from both Fluid Containment (formerly Owens Corning
>>Fiberglass) and Xerxes Corp, the two major commercial fiberglass tank
>>manufacturers. (pg. 16) It goes on to say that tank relining materials
>>using epoxy or polyester resins from the late 1970s and early 1980s are
>>not compatible. Page 18 has a short chart of compatible and
>>incompatible materials.
>>
>><URL:http://www.e85fuel.com/forsuppliers/rfa_technical_manual.pdf> Or:
>>
>><URL:http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache...el.com/forsupp
>>liers/rfa_technical_manual.pdf&hl=en>
>>
>>Without having looked at the OP's pdf I'm guessing that the boatyard is
>> having problems with boat tanks older than 1980.
>>
>>
>>reconair wrote:
>>
>>>There's really more to it than that. MTBE additives and Ethanol are not
>>>compatible and will cause precipitates to form that affects fuel line/fuel
>>>filter delivery and cause combustion problems. When switching from MTBE
>>>fuel to Ethanol fuel, make sure you run the tank near dry before refueling
>>>and vice versa. This will limit the effects of incompatibility.
>>>
>>>Scott
>>>91YJ
>>>"Rich Hampel" <RhmpL33@nospam.net> wrote in message
>>>news:040120061152437988%RhmpL33@nospam.net...
>>>
>>>
>>>>although this affects mainly boats, I thought I'd cross post this here
>>>>in case any of you have a fiberglass fuel tank.
>>>>
>>>>There are great 'problems' showing up due to the 'changeover' of
>>>>gasoline addives - MTBE to Ethanol: Fiberglass fuel tanks dissolving
>>>>and leaking, harmful destructive deposits formed inside engines, etc.
>>>>About half the USA states have already banned MTBE additive and are
>>>>rapidly changing over to an ethanol additive, the ethanol is quite
>>>>incompatible with most of the fiberglass resin used in fuel tanks. The
>>>>decomposition products of the 'melting/dissolving' resin doesnt burn
>>>>and will form vast and destructive deposits in the engine (similar to
>>>>putting sugar into the gasoline).
>>>>
>>>>for more info:
>>>>http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/at...ttachmentid=42
>>>>or BOATUS.com website.
>>>
>>>
>>>