MTBE to Ethanol additive change-over ..PROBLEMS
01-04-2006, 07:06 PM
#21
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: MTBE to Ethanol additive change-over ..PROBLEMS
There's really more to it than that. MTBE additives and Ethanol are not
compatible and will cause precipitates to form that affects fuel line/fuel
filter delivery and cause combustion problems. When switching from MTBE
fuel to Ethanol fuel, make sure you run the tank near dry before refueling
and vice versa. This will limit the effects of incompatibility.
Scott
91YJ
"Rich Hampel" <RhmpL33@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:040120061152437988%RhmpL33@nospam.net...
> although this affects mainly boats, I thought I'd cross post this here
> in case any of you have a fiberglass fuel tank.
>
> There are great 'problems' showing up due to the 'changeover' of
> gasoline addives - MTBE to Ethanol: Fiberglass fuel tanks dissolving
> and leaking, harmful destructive deposits formed inside engines, etc.
> About half the USA states have already banned MTBE additive and are
> rapidly changing over to an ethanol additive, the ethanol is quite
> incompatible with most of the fiberglass resin used in fuel tanks. The
> decomposition products of the 'melting/dissolving' resin doesnt burn
> and will form vast and destructive deposits in the engine (similar to
> putting sugar into the gasoline).
>
> for more info:
> http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/at...ttachmentid=42
> or BOATUS.com website.
compatible and will cause precipitates to form that affects fuel line/fuel
filter delivery and cause combustion problems. When switching from MTBE
fuel to Ethanol fuel, make sure you run the tank near dry before refueling
and vice versa. This will limit the effects of incompatibility.
Scott
91YJ
"Rich Hampel" <RhmpL33@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:040120061152437988%RhmpL33@nospam.net...
> although this affects mainly boats, I thought I'd cross post this here
> in case any of you have a fiberglass fuel tank.
>
> There are great 'problems' showing up due to the 'changeover' of
> gasoline addives - MTBE to Ethanol: Fiberglass fuel tanks dissolving
> and leaking, harmful destructive deposits formed inside engines, etc.
> About half the USA states have already banned MTBE additive and are
> rapidly changing over to an ethanol additive, the ethanol is quite
> incompatible with most of the fiberglass resin used in fuel tanks. The
> decomposition products of the 'melting/dissolving' resin doesnt burn
> and will form vast and destructive deposits in the engine (similar to
> putting sugar into the gasoline).
>
> for more info:
> http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/at...ttachmentid=42
> or BOATUS.com website.
01-04-2006, 07:06 PM
#22
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: MTBE to Ethanol additive change-over ..PROBLEMS
There's really more to it than that. MTBE additives and Ethanol are not
compatible and will cause precipitates to form that affects fuel line/fuel
filter delivery and cause combustion problems. When switching from MTBE
fuel to Ethanol fuel, make sure you run the tank near dry before refueling
and vice versa. This will limit the effects of incompatibility.
Scott
91YJ
"Rich Hampel" <RhmpL33@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:040120061152437988%RhmpL33@nospam.net...
> although this affects mainly boats, I thought I'd cross post this here
> in case any of you have a fiberglass fuel tank.
>
> There are great 'problems' showing up due to the 'changeover' of
> gasoline addives - MTBE to Ethanol: Fiberglass fuel tanks dissolving
> and leaking, harmful destructive deposits formed inside engines, etc.
> About half the USA states have already banned MTBE additive and are
> rapidly changing over to an ethanol additive, the ethanol is quite
> incompatible with most of the fiberglass resin used in fuel tanks. The
> decomposition products of the 'melting/dissolving' resin doesnt burn
> and will form vast and destructive deposits in the engine (similar to
> putting sugar into the gasoline).
>
> for more info:
> http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/at...ttachmentid=42
> or BOATUS.com website.
compatible and will cause precipitates to form that affects fuel line/fuel
filter delivery and cause combustion problems. When switching from MTBE
fuel to Ethanol fuel, make sure you run the tank near dry before refueling
and vice versa. This will limit the effects of incompatibility.
Scott
91YJ
"Rich Hampel" <RhmpL33@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:040120061152437988%RhmpL33@nospam.net...
> although this affects mainly boats, I thought I'd cross post this here
> in case any of you have a fiberglass fuel tank.
>
> There are great 'problems' showing up due to the 'changeover' of
> gasoline addives - MTBE to Ethanol: Fiberglass fuel tanks dissolving
> and leaking, harmful destructive deposits formed inside engines, etc.
> About half the USA states have already banned MTBE additive and are
> rapidly changing over to an ethanol additive, the ethanol is quite
> incompatible with most of the fiberglass resin used in fuel tanks. The
> decomposition products of the 'melting/dissolving' resin doesnt burn
> and will form vast and destructive deposits in the engine (similar to
> putting sugar into the gasoline).
>
> for more info:
> http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/at...ttachmentid=42
> or BOATUS.com website.
01-04-2006, 07:44 PM
#23
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: MTBE to Ethanol additive change-over ..PROBLEMS
The CJ7s, the farmer's lobby, or the methanol lobby?
This is from the source, the Canadian company that is trying to tell the
good people of California what they can and cannot ban in order to protect
their environment.
http://www.methanex.com/newsroom/mtbebackground.html
"methanol competes directly with ethanol at refineries and any MTBE bans
will directly reduce sales of methanol"
That is the bottom line, profits for avaricious Canadian capitalists.
Elsewhere, they admit that "MTBE can make drinking water supplies
unpalatable", yet they are using NAFTA to force California children and
puppies to drink it. For shame.
By the way, your CJ7 uses the same polyethylene material in its fuel tank
that my YJ uses, and I live in Colorado, a notorious "farmer's lobby" state.
(Curiously, I live in the only Colorado county with no agricultural zoned
land.) No problems yet. For the other side of the MTBE story check out
this page, http://www.lightparty.com/Economic/MTBE.html or anything else you
find in your favorite search engine.
Earle
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:43BC4EBD.4F75966A@sympatico.ca...
> All CJ7's made cannot use ethanol as far as I know. CJ7's have plastic
> tanks and the owners manuals for the 80's vintages specifically forbids
> the use of any alcohol mix no matter what 'drying agents' they try to
> con you with.
>
> So who came first, the CJ7's or the farmers lobby?
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Aug./05 http://www.imagestation.com/album/in...?id=2120343242
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> Bret Ludwig wrote:
> >
> > The PROBLEM isn't the fuel. The PROBLEM was the poor choice of
> > materials in the first place.
This is from the source, the Canadian company that is trying to tell the
good people of California what they can and cannot ban in order to protect
their environment.
http://www.methanex.com/newsroom/mtbebackground.html
"methanol competes directly with ethanol at refineries and any MTBE bans
will directly reduce sales of methanol"
That is the bottom line, profits for avaricious Canadian capitalists.
Elsewhere, they admit that "MTBE can make drinking water supplies
unpalatable", yet they are using NAFTA to force California children and
puppies to drink it. For shame.
By the way, your CJ7 uses the same polyethylene material in its fuel tank
that my YJ uses, and I live in Colorado, a notorious "farmer's lobby" state.
(Curiously, I live in the only Colorado county with no agricultural zoned
land.) No problems yet. For the other side of the MTBE story check out
this page, http://www.lightparty.com/Economic/MTBE.html or anything else you
find in your favorite search engine.
Earle
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:43BC4EBD.4F75966A@sympatico.ca...
> All CJ7's made cannot use ethanol as far as I know. CJ7's have plastic
> tanks and the owners manuals for the 80's vintages specifically forbids
> the use of any alcohol mix no matter what 'drying agents' they try to
> con you with.
>
> So who came first, the CJ7's or the farmers lobby?
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Aug./05 http://www.imagestation.com/album/in...?id=2120343242
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> Bret Ludwig wrote:
> >
> > The PROBLEM isn't the fuel. The PROBLEM was the poor choice of
> > materials in the first place.
01-04-2006, 07:44 PM
#24
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: MTBE to Ethanol additive change-over ..PROBLEMS
The CJ7s, the farmer's lobby, or the methanol lobby?
This is from the source, the Canadian company that is trying to tell the
good people of California what they can and cannot ban in order to protect
their environment.
http://www.methanex.com/newsroom/mtbebackground.html
"methanol competes directly with ethanol at refineries and any MTBE bans
will directly reduce sales of methanol"
That is the bottom line, profits for avaricious Canadian capitalists.
Elsewhere, they admit that "MTBE can make drinking water supplies
unpalatable", yet they are using NAFTA to force California children and
puppies to drink it. For shame.
By the way, your CJ7 uses the same polyethylene material in its fuel tank
that my YJ uses, and I live in Colorado, a notorious "farmer's lobby" state.
(Curiously, I live in the only Colorado county with no agricultural zoned
land.) No problems yet. For the other side of the MTBE story check out
this page, http://www.lightparty.com/Economic/MTBE.html or anything else you
find in your favorite search engine.
Earle
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:43BC4EBD.4F75966A@sympatico.ca...
> All CJ7's made cannot use ethanol as far as I know. CJ7's have plastic
> tanks and the owners manuals for the 80's vintages specifically forbids
> the use of any alcohol mix no matter what 'drying agents' they try to
> con you with.
>
> So who came first, the CJ7's or the farmers lobby?
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Aug./05 http://www.imagestation.com/album/in...?id=2120343242
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> Bret Ludwig wrote:
> >
> > The PROBLEM isn't the fuel. The PROBLEM was the poor choice of
> > materials in the first place.
This is from the source, the Canadian company that is trying to tell the
good people of California what they can and cannot ban in order to protect
their environment.
http://www.methanex.com/newsroom/mtbebackground.html
"methanol competes directly with ethanol at refineries and any MTBE bans
will directly reduce sales of methanol"
That is the bottom line, profits for avaricious Canadian capitalists.
Elsewhere, they admit that "MTBE can make drinking water supplies
unpalatable", yet they are using NAFTA to force California children and
puppies to drink it. For shame.
By the way, your CJ7 uses the same polyethylene material in its fuel tank
that my YJ uses, and I live in Colorado, a notorious "farmer's lobby" state.
(Curiously, I live in the only Colorado county with no agricultural zoned
land.) No problems yet. For the other side of the MTBE story check out
this page, http://www.lightparty.com/Economic/MTBE.html or anything else you
find in your favorite search engine.
Earle
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:43BC4EBD.4F75966A@sympatico.ca...
> All CJ7's made cannot use ethanol as far as I know. CJ7's have plastic
> tanks and the owners manuals for the 80's vintages specifically forbids
> the use of any alcohol mix no matter what 'drying agents' they try to
> con you with.
>
> So who came first, the CJ7's or the farmers lobby?
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Aug./05 http://www.imagestation.com/album/in...?id=2120343242
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> Bret Ludwig wrote:
> >
> > The PROBLEM isn't the fuel. The PROBLEM was the poor choice of
> > materials in the first place.
01-04-2006, 07:44 PM
#25
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: MTBE to Ethanol additive change-over ..PROBLEMS
The CJ7s, the farmer's lobby, or the methanol lobby?
This is from the source, the Canadian company that is trying to tell the
good people of California what they can and cannot ban in order to protect
their environment.
http://www.methanex.com/newsroom/mtbebackground.html
"methanol competes directly with ethanol at refineries and any MTBE bans
will directly reduce sales of methanol"
That is the bottom line, profits for avaricious Canadian capitalists.
Elsewhere, they admit that "MTBE can make drinking water supplies
unpalatable", yet they are using NAFTA to force California children and
puppies to drink it. For shame.
By the way, your CJ7 uses the same polyethylene material in its fuel tank
that my YJ uses, and I live in Colorado, a notorious "farmer's lobby" state.
(Curiously, I live in the only Colorado county with no agricultural zoned
land.) No problems yet. For the other side of the MTBE story check out
this page, http://www.lightparty.com/Economic/MTBE.html or anything else you
find in your favorite search engine.
Earle
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:43BC4EBD.4F75966A@sympatico.ca...
> All CJ7's made cannot use ethanol as far as I know. CJ7's have plastic
> tanks and the owners manuals for the 80's vintages specifically forbids
> the use of any alcohol mix no matter what 'drying agents' they try to
> con you with.
>
> So who came first, the CJ7's or the farmers lobby?
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Aug./05 http://www.imagestation.com/album/in...?id=2120343242
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> Bret Ludwig wrote:
> >
> > The PROBLEM isn't the fuel. The PROBLEM was the poor choice of
> > materials in the first place.
This is from the source, the Canadian company that is trying to tell the
good people of California what they can and cannot ban in order to protect
their environment.
http://www.methanex.com/newsroom/mtbebackground.html
"methanol competes directly with ethanol at refineries and any MTBE bans
will directly reduce sales of methanol"
That is the bottom line, profits for avaricious Canadian capitalists.
Elsewhere, they admit that "MTBE can make drinking water supplies
unpalatable", yet they are using NAFTA to force California children and
puppies to drink it. For shame.
By the way, your CJ7 uses the same polyethylene material in its fuel tank
that my YJ uses, and I live in Colorado, a notorious "farmer's lobby" state.
(Curiously, I live in the only Colorado county with no agricultural zoned
land.) No problems yet. For the other side of the MTBE story check out
this page, http://www.lightparty.com/Economic/MTBE.html or anything else you
find in your favorite search engine.
Earle
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:43BC4EBD.4F75966A@sympatico.ca...
> All CJ7's made cannot use ethanol as far as I know. CJ7's have plastic
> tanks and the owners manuals for the 80's vintages specifically forbids
> the use of any alcohol mix no matter what 'drying agents' they try to
> con you with.
>
> So who came first, the CJ7's or the farmers lobby?
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Aug./05 http://www.imagestation.com/album/in...?id=2120343242
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> Bret Ludwig wrote:
> >
> > The PROBLEM isn't the fuel. The PROBLEM was the poor choice of
> > materials in the first place.
01-04-2006, 08:27 PM
#26
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: MTBE to Ethanol additive change-over ..PROBLEMS
L.W. ------ III (ßill) wrote:
> It eat all the stock neoprene carburetor seats, too.
> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Mike Romain wrote:
> >
> > All CJ7's made cannot use ethanol as far as I know. CJ7's have plastic
> > tanks and the owners manuals for the 80's vintages specifically forbids
> > the use of any alcohol mix no matter what 'drying agents' they try to
> > con you with.
> >
> > So who came first, the CJ7's or the farmers lobby?
All the "Alcool" E100 burning cars in Brazil have plastic gas tanks
too.
01-04-2006, 08:27 PM
#27
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: MTBE to Ethanol additive change-over ..PROBLEMS
L.W. ------ III (ßill) wrote:
> It eat all the stock neoprene carburetor seats, too.
> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Mike Romain wrote:
> >
> > All CJ7's made cannot use ethanol as far as I know. CJ7's have plastic
> > tanks and the owners manuals for the 80's vintages specifically forbids
> > the use of any alcohol mix no matter what 'drying agents' they try to
> > con you with.
> >
> > So who came first, the CJ7's or the farmers lobby?
All the "Alcool" E100 burning cars in Brazil have plastic gas tanks
too.
01-04-2006, 08:27 PM
#28
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: MTBE to Ethanol additive change-over ..PROBLEMS
L.W. ------ III (ßill) wrote:
> It eat all the stock neoprene carburetor seats, too.
> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Mike Romain wrote:
> >
> > All CJ7's made cannot use ethanol as far as I know. CJ7's have plastic
> > tanks and the owners manuals for the 80's vintages specifically forbids
> > the use of any alcohol mix no matter what 'drying agents' they try to
> > con you with.
> >
> > So who came first, the CJ7's or the farmers lobby?
All the "Alcool" E100 burning cars in Brazil have plastic gas tanks
too.
01-05-2006, 10:52 AM
#29
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: MTBE to Ethanol additive change-over ..PROBLEMS
IANAPetrochemicalEngineer, but I can't find anything online about MTBE
and ethanol forming precipitates. I've found that the US EPA does
generally forbid mixing the two products in bulk, but there's no ban on
mixing in the consumer's tanks. The rational for the ban has to do with
increased Volatile Organic Compound emissions, not chemical
incompatibility.
The following ethanol industry technical paper states that all
fiberglass tanks designed for gasoline are compatible with
gasoline/ethanol blends up to 10% ethanol, and that it has approval
letters on file from both Fluid Containment (formerly Owens Corning
Fiberglass) and Xerxes Corp, the two major commercial fiberglass tank
manufacturers. (pg. 16) It goes on to say that tank relining materials
using epoxy or polyester resins from the late 1970s and early 1980s are
not compatible. Page 18 has a short chart of compatible and
incompatible materials.
<URL:http://www.e85fuel.com/forsuppliers/rfa_technical_manual.pdf> Or:
<URL:http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:RfZSWgiqkhIJ:www.e85fuel.com/forsuppliers/rfa_technical_manual.pdf&hl=en>
Without having looked at the OP's pdf I'm guessing that the boatyard is
having problems with boat tanks older than 1980.
reconair wrote:
> There's really more to it than that. MTBE additives and Ethanol are not
> compatible and will cause precipitates to form that affects fuel line/fuel
> filter delivery and cause combustion problems. When switching from MTBE
> fuel to Ethanol fuel, make sure you run the tank near dry before refueling
> and vice versa. This will limit the effects of incompatibility.
>
> Scott
> 91YJ
> "Rich Hampel" <RhmpL33@nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:040120061152437988%RhmpL33@nospam.net...
>
>>although this affects mainly boats, I thought I'd cross post this here
>>in case any of you have a fiberglass fuel tank.
>>
>>There are great 'problems' showing up due to the 'changeover' of
>>gasoline addives - MTBE to Ethanol: Fiberglass fuel tanks dissolving
>>and leaking, harmful destructive deposits formed inside engines, etc.
>>About half the USA states have already banned MTBE additive and are
>>rapidly changing over to an ethanol additive, the ethanol is quite
>>incompatible with most of the fiberglass resin used in fuel tanks. The
>>decomposition products of the 'melting/dissolving' resin doesnt burn
>>and will form vast and destructive deposits in the engine (similar to
>>putting sugar into the gasoline).
>>
>>for more info:
>>http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/at...ttachmentid=42
>>or BOATUS.com website.
>
>
>
01-05-2006, 10:52 AM
#30
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: MTBE to Ethanol additive change-over ..PROBLEMS
IANAPetrochemicalEngineer, but I can't find anything online about MTBE
and ethanol forming precipitates. I've found that the US EPA does
generally forbid mixing the two products in bulk, but there's no ban on
mixing in the consumer's tanks. The rational for the ban has to do with
increased Volatile Organic Compound emissions, not chemical
incompatibility.
The following ethanol industry technical paper states that all
fiberglass tanks designed for gasoline are compatible with
gasoline/ethanol blends up to 10% ethanol, and that it has approval
letters on file from both Fluid Containment (formerly Owens Corning
Fiberglass) and Xerxes Corp, the two major commercial fiberglass tank
manufacturers. (pg. 16) It goes on to say that tank relining materials
using epoxy or polyester resins from the late 1970s and early 1980s are
not compatible. Page 18 has a short chart of compatible and
incompatible materials.
<URL:http://www.e85fuel.com/forsuppliers/rfa_technical_manual.pdf> Or:
<URL:http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:RfZSWgiqkhIJ:www.e85fuel.com/forsuppliers/rfa_technical_manual.pdf&hl=en>
Without having looked at the OP's pdf I'm guessing that the boatyard is
having problems with boat tanks older than 1980.
reconair wrote:
> There's really more to it than that. MTBE additives and Ethanol are not
> compatible and will cause precipitates to form that affects fuel line/fuel
> filter delivery and cause combustion problems. When switching from MTBE
> fuel to Ethanol fuel, make sure you run the tank near dry before refueling
> and vice versa. This will limit the effects of incompatibility.
>
> Scott
> 91YJ
> "Rich Hampel" <RhmpL33@nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:040120061152437988%RhmpL33@nospam.net...
>
>>although this affects mainly boats, I thought I'd cross post this here
>>in case any of you have a fiberglass fuel tank.
>>
>>There are great 'problems' showing up due to the 'changeover' of
>>gasoline addives - MTBE to Ethanol: Fiberglass fuel tanks dissolving
>>and leaking, harmful destructive deposits formed inside engines, etc.
>>About half the USA states have already banned MTBE additive and are
>>rapidly changing over to an ethanol additive, the ethanol is quite
>>incompatible with most of the fiberglass resin used in fuel tanks. The
>>decomposition products of the 'melting/dissolving' resin doesnt burn
>>and will form vast and destructive deposits in the engine (similar to
>>putting sugar into the gasoline).
>>
>>for more info:
>>http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/at...ttachmentid=42
>>or BOATUS.com website.
>
>
>