More New Scrambler Details
#61
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: More New Scrambler Details
Amen.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
>
> "There's No Replacement For Displacement."
> * * *
> Matt Macchiarolo
> www.townpeddler.com
> www.wolverine4wd.org
> http://wolverine4wd.org/rigs/macchiarolo_ml.html
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
>
> "There's No Replacement For Displacement."
> * * *
> Matt Macchiarolo
> www.townpeddler.com
> www.wolverine4wd.org
> http://wolverine4wd.org/rigs/macchiarolo_ml.html
#62
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: More New Scrambler Details
Amen.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
>
> "There's No Replacement For Displacement."
> * * *
> Matt Macchiarolo
> www.townpeddler.com
> www.wolverine4wd.org
> http://wolverine4wd.org/rigs/macchiarolo_ml.html
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
>
> "There's No Replacement For Displacement."
> * * *
> Matt Macchiarolo
> www.townpeddler.com
> www.wolverine4wd.org
> http://wolverine4wd.org/rigs/macchiarolo_ml.html
#63
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: More New Scrambler Details
Glad to help Jerry. I get so much good info from this group that I am happy
when I can give something back.
Chris
"Jerry Bransford" <jerrypb@mecox.net> wrote in message
news:UaJgb.47702$gv5.28652@fed1read05...
> Wow Chris, that was an insanely great post with great information. I
> learned a great deal from it, especially a far deeper understanding of why
> an inline six is generally thought of as a better low-end torque motor
than
> a V6 is. Thanks, that was an extremely well-written, and informative post
> with just the right amount of detail to back it up!
>
> Jerry
> --
> Jerry Bransford
> To email, remove 'me' from my email address
> KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
> See the Geezer Jeep at
> http://members.***.net/jerrypb/
>
> "c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
> news:s_Igb.22945$832.12007@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > The fact that an engine is an inline or V design has very little to do
> with
> > its power band, but it is a factor. The biggest factors in determining
the
> > RPM where peak torque occurs is the design of the induction and exhaust
> > systems. Probably the main factor of an inline engine that causes it to
> have
> > more low RPM torque than a V design is the fact that the intake runners
> are
> > usually much longer on the inline engine purely by design. One other
> factor
> > that will make an inline engine seem to have more torque is the fact
that
> > the weight of the crankshaft and connecting rods will create more
inertia.
> > This is great for low RPM use because the engine will not bog as easily.
> The
> > drawback for high RPM use is that the same inertia will resist fast RPM
> > increases in instances such as passing. also, most V design engines have
a
> > shorter stroke than an inline engine of the same displacement. This also
> > means that the inline engine will have smaller piston bores, which means
> > smaller valves, which "usually" means more low RPM torque. An engine's
> peak
> > torque occurs at the highest RPM that it can completely fill the
cylinders
> > (100% volumetric efficiency). Some of these guys that are racing the
rice
> > burners like the Toyota inline 6, are spinning them at ungodly high RPM,
> but
> > these engines have 4 valves per cylinder, small stroke/big bore/long
> > connecting rod design, and some very exotic induction and exhaust
systems.
> > OTOH, there are V6 engines used in cruising boats that basically idle
> along
> > all the time and have a max recommended RPM of about 4000. there are
also
> > 500 cubic inch V8 racing engines out there that don't make a bit of
torque
> > until 5 or 6000 RPM, such as in Pro Stock drag racing. These engines are
> > revved to about 9000 RPM during a quarter mile race. there again, these
> > engines have absolutely huge ports, cams, and carbs. Granted, some
engines
> > are not suited to low RPM use because there just isn't a good mix of
parts
> > to make them run like they should, but most of the common engines like
the
> > Dodge 318/360, Chevy 350, and Ford 302/351 have many good parts
available
> > for making a very torquey low RPM engine. The Jeep 4.0 and the AMC/Jeep
> 258
> > are a good place to start because they were made to run at lower RPM and
> > don't require much, if anything to make a good powerful off road type
> > engine.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:vo3oigj7eh5k07@corp.supernews.com...
> > > What you are forgetting about is the high torque at low speed is
exactly
> > > what you want when offroading, high torque at high speed is what you
> want
> > on
> > > the freeway. If the torque comes in at low speeds, then it will be all
> > used
> > > up at high speeds, and the ability to accellerate when you are already
> > doing
> > > 70 just isn't there.
> > >
> > > In an engine that is primarily intended for highway travel, you want
the
> > > torque and hp to be delivered at high engine speeds. This will allow
you
> > to
> > > pass other vehicles and climb long hills easily, maybe even speed up
> while
> > > doing it. In an engine that produces its torque at idle, there won't
be
> > any
> > > more torque available at higher speeds. The result is that climbing
long
> > > hills may not allow accelleration, and simply maintaining the speed
you
> > had
> > > at the bottom is all you can hope for when you get to the top. If you
> come
> > > up upon slower moving traffic, and have to slow down because the lane
> next
> > > to you is not empty, you might find that regaining the lost speed is
> > > difficult. But, for the trouble at highway speeds, you can pull stumps
> at
> > > idle. If your engine is designed primarily for highway work, then
using
> it
> > > in the low speed environment of offroading can be a real chore.
> > >
> > > So, I say again, which is better depends upon what you do more. The
> > > discussion isn't "any given gear" it is first gear vs 5th gear. The V6
> > > engine in the Liberty is primarily made for flying low to Grandma's
> house,
> > > so it will work much better on the freeway than the I6 in the TJ, but
> not
> > as
> > > good as the I6 when the desire is to go very slow in 1st gear.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > news:b102b6e4.0310060611.17644956@posting.google.c om...
> > > > I'm not sure I follow. In any given gear, isn't an engine going to
> > > > give you more power at a higher RPM? Isn't that why the gas pedal
is
> > > > called the "accelerator"? No one ever says "Hey, I need more power,
> > > > so let me take my foot off the gas pedal!" I don't know about you,
> > > > but whenever I need more speed or more power, I mash down on the
gas
> > > > pedal to raise the RPMs....
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I have a BMW with an I6 motor, and it revs to 7000 rpm, the I6 in
my
> > > Jeep is
> > > > > screaming at 3500. The BMW will easily stall from a stop sign on a
> > hill
> > > but
> > > > > it will cruise for hours at 100+ mph. The Jeep will pull stop
signs
> > out
> > > of
> > > > > the ground at idle, even on a hill, but it resists any attempt to
go
> > > faster
> > > > > than about 70 or 75, and it prefers to cruise at speeds in the 65
> > range.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, the I6/V6 question/debate must be refined to the specific V6
and
> > I6
> > > > > involved. In the case of the Jeep application (particularly the
TJ),
> > the
> > > I6
> > > > > is the preferred configuration for the reasons I told you about.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:b102b6e4.0310010603.6341e03b@posting.google.c om...
> > > > > > Very informative. Thank you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:<vnjv34cppj5q4d@corp.supernews.com>...
> > > > > > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:b102b6e4.0309301057.40e84a07@posting.google.c om...
> > > > > > > > What makes you think that the V6 is inferior to the I6? I
> have
> > > read
> > > > > > > > up on the features of Vs versus Is, and both types seem to
> have
> > a
> > > hard
> > > > > > > > core of fans who insist they are better... but from what I
as
> a
> > > layman
> > > > > > > > have read, neither engine style has an absolute edge over
the
> > > other
> > > > > > > > type.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The rule of thumb is that anything that makes a motor,
> suspension,
> > > > > anything,
> > > > > > > better for highway use detracts from the function in an
offroad
> > > > > environment,
> > > > > > > and vice versa. The V6 is a high revving motor that produces
its
> > > torque
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > horsepower numbers relatively high in the RPM range, the I6
will
> > > produce
> > > > > its
> > > > > > > torque just above idle speeds.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Let me illustrate the point, would you rather idle over
boulders
> > and
> > > > > stumps
> > > > > > > while gently feathering the gas to keep from stalling, or
would
> > you
> > > want
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > be holding the fuel supplier down so that the engine speed was
> > > boosted
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > the point that control was compromised? I want the torque at
> idle,
> > > not
> > > > > half
> > > > > > > way up the scale.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Highway travel demands the torque to be well up on the RPM
scale
> > > because
> > > > > > > that means there is a power reserve that one can tap to climb
> > hills,
> > > > > pass
> > > > > > > semis, that sort of thing. But, in offhighway travel, one
> prefers
> > > the
> > > > > torque
> > > > > > > and hp to come in at very low speeds.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you purpose to buy a Jeep was to drive cross country on the
> > > freeway
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > get to Grandma's house, you want the V6. But, if you are
wanting
> > to
> > > go
> > > > > trail
> > > > > > > riding, stump jumping, and rock crawling, then the V6 is the
> last
> > > motor
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > will want.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That said, I am sure that Bill will tell us about the old 225
ci
> > V6.
> > > > > This is
> > > > > > > a different beast than today's fuel injected high revving
V6's.
> > That
> > > old
> > > > > > > motor was among the most desireable off road motors to ever
> comme
> > > off
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > line.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > That 3.7L is a V6. The4.0L I6 is what will probably be on
it
> > > because
> > > > > that is
> > > > > > > > > the engine that comes on the other TJ models. At least I
> hope
> > > the V6
> > > > > is
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > one of the engine options.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
when I can give something back.
Chris
"Jerry Bransford" <jerrypb@mecox.net> wrote in message
news:UaJgb.47702$gv5.28652@fed1read05...
> Wow Chris, that was an insanely great post with great information. I
> learned a great deal from it, especially a far deeper understanding of why
> an inline six is generally thought of as a better low-end torque motor
than
> a V6 is. Thanks, that was an extremely well-written, and informative post
> with just the right amount of detail to back it up!
>
> Jerry
> --
> Jerry Bransford
> To email, remove 'me' from my email address
> KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
> See the Geezer Jeep at
> http://members.***.net/jerrypb/
>
> "c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
> news:s_Igb.22945$832.12007@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > The fact that an engine is an inline or V design has very little to do
> with
> > its power band, but it is a factor. The biggest factors in determining
the
> > RPM where peak torque occurs is the design of the induction and exhaust
> > systems. Probably the main factor of an inline engine that causes it to
> have
> > more low RPM torque than a V design is the fact that the intake runners
> are
> > usually much longer on the inline engine purely by design. One other
> factor
> > that will make an inline engine seem to have more torque is the fact
that
> > the weight of the crankshaft and connecting rods will create more
inertia.
> > This is great for low RPM use because the engine will not bog as easily.
> The
> > drawback for high RPM use is that the same inertia will resist fast RPM
> > increases in instances such as passing. also, most V design engines have
a
> > shorter stroke than an inline engine of the same displacement. This also
> > means that the inline engine will have smaller piston bores, which means
> > smaller valves, which "usually" means more low RPM torque. An engine's
> peak
> > torque occurs at the highest RPM that it can completely fill the
cylinders
> > (100% volumetric efficiency). Some of these guys that are racing the
rice
> > burners like the Toyota inline 6, are spinning them at ungodly high RPM,
> but
> > these engines have 4 valves per cylinder, small stroke/big bore/long
> > connecting rod design, and some very exotic induction and exhaust
systems.
> > OTOH, there are V6 engines used in cruising boats that basically idle
> along
> > all the time and have a max recommended RPM of about 4000. there are
also
> > 500 cubic inch V8 racing engines out there that don't make a bit of
torque
> > until 5 or 6000 RPM, such as in Pro Stock drag racing. These engines are
> > revved to about 9000 RPM during a quarter mile race. there again, these
> > engines have absolutely huge ports, cams, and carbs. Granted, some
engines
> > are not suited to low RPM use because there just isn't a good mix of
parts
> > to make them run like they should, but most of the common engines like
the
> > Dodge 318/360, Chevy 350, and Ford 302/351 have many good parts
available
> > for making a very torquey low RPM engine. The Jeep 4.0 and the AMC/Jeep
> 258
> > are a good place to start because they were made to run at lower RPM and
> > don't require much, if anything to make a good powerful off road type
> > engine.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:vo3oigj7eh5k07@corp.supernews.com...
> > > What you are forgetting about is the high torque at low speed is
exactly
> > > what you want when offroading, high torque at high speed is what you
> want
> > on
> > > the freeway. If the torque comes in at low speeds, then it will be all
> > used
> > > up at high speeds, and the ability to accellerate when you are already
> > doing
> > > 70 just isn't there.
> > >
> > > In an engine that is primarily intended for highway travel, you want
the
> > > torque and hp to be delivered at high engine speeds. This will allow
you
> > to
> > > pass other vehicles and climb long hills easily, maybe even speed up
> while
> > > doing it. In an engine that produces its torque at idle, there won't
be
> > any
> > > more torque available at higher speeds. The result is that climbing
long
> > > hills may not allow accelleration, and simply maintaining the speed
you
> > had
> > > at the bottom is all you can hope for when you get to the top. If you
> come
> > > up upon slower moving traffic, and have to slow down because the lane
> next
> > > to you is not empty, you might find that regaining the lost speed is
> > > difficult. But, for the trouble at highway speeds, you can pull stumps
> at
> > > idle. If your engine is designed primarily for highway work, then
using
> it
> > > in the low speed environment of offroading can be a real chore.
> > >
> > > So, I say again, which is better depends upon what you do more. The
> > > discussion isn't "any given gear" it is first gear vs 5th gear. The V6
> > > engine in the Liberty is primarily made for flying low to Grandma's
> house,
> > > so it will work much better on the freeway than the I6 in the TJ, but
> not
> > as
> > > good as the I6 when the desire is to go very slow in 1st gear.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > news:b102b6e4.0310060611.17644956@posting.google.c om...
> > > > I'm not sure I follow. In any given gear, isn't an engine going to
> > > > give you more power at a higher RPM? Isn't that why the gas pedal
is
> > > > called the "accelerator"? No one ever says "Hey, I need more power,
> > > > so let me take my foot off the gas pedal!" I don't know about you,
> > > > but whenever I need more speed or more power, I mash down on the
gas
> > > > pedal to raise the RPMs....
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I have a BMW with an I6 motor, and it revs to 7000 rpm, the I6 in
my
> > > Jeep is
> > > > > screaming at 3500. The BMW will easily stall from a stop sign on a
> > hill
> > > but
> > > > > it will cruise for hours at 100+ mph. The Jeep will pull stop
signs
> > out
> > > of
> > > > > the ground at idle, even on a hill, but it resists any attempt to
go
> > > faster
> > > > > than about 70 or 75, and it prefers to cruise at speeds in the 65
> > range.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, the I6/V6 question/debate must be refined to the specific V6
and
> > I6
> > > > > involved. In the case of the Jeep application (particularly the
TJ),
> > the
> > > I6
> > > > > is the preferred configuration for the reasons I told you about.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:b102b6e4.0310010603.6341e03b@posting.google.c om...
> > > > > > Very informative. Thank you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:<vnjv34cppj5q4d@corp.supernews.com>...
> > > > > > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:b102b6e4.0309301057.40e84a07@posting.google.c om...
> > > > > > > > What makes you think that the V6 is inferior to the I6? I
> have
> > > read
> > > > > > > > up on the features of Vs versus Is, and both types seem to
> have
> > a
> > > hard
> > > > > > > > core of fans who insist they are better... but from what I
as
> a
> > > layman
> > > > > > > > have read, neither engine style has an absolute edge over
the
> > > other
> > > > > > > > type.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The rule of thumb is that anything that makes a motor,
> suspension,
> > > > > anything,
> > > > > > > better for highway use detracts from the function in an
offroad
> > > > > environment,
> > > > > > > and vice versa. The V6 is a high revving motor that produces
its
> > > torque
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > horsepower numbers relatively high in the RPM range, the I6
will
> > > produce
> > > > > its
> > > > > > > torque just above idle speeds.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Let me illustrate the point, would you rather idle over
boulders
> > and
> > > > > stumps
> > > > > > > while gently feathering the gas to keep from stalling, or
would
> > you
> > > want
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > be holding the fuel supplier down so that the engine speed was
> > > boosted
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > the point that control was compromised? I want the torque at
> idle,
> > > not
> > > > > half
> > > > > > > way up the scale.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Highway travel demands the torque to be well up on the RPM
scale
> > > because
> > > > > > > that means there is a power reserve that one can tap to climb
> > hills,
> > > > > pass
> > > > > > > semis, that sort of thing. But, in offhighway travel, one
> prefers
> > > the
> > > > > torque
> > > > > > > and hp to come in at very low speeds.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you purpose to buy a Jeep was to drive cross country on the
> > > freeway
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > get to Grandma's house, you want the V6. But, if you are
wanting
> > to
> > > go
> > > > > trail
> > > > > > > riding, stump jumping, and rock crawling, then the V6 is the
> last
> > > motor
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > will want.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That said, I am sure that Bill will tell us about the old 225
ci
> > V6.
> > > > > This is
> > > > > > > a different beast than today's fuel injected high revving
V6's.
> > That
> > > old
> > > > > > > motor was among the most desireable off road motors to ever
> comme
> > > off
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > line.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > That 3.7L is a V6. The4.0L I6 is what will probably be on
it
> > > because
> > > > > that is
> > > > > > > > > the engine that comes on the other TJ models. At least I
> hope
> > > the V6
> > > > > is
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > one of the engine options.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
#64
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: More New Scrambler Details
Glad to help Jerry. I get so much good info from this group that I am happy
when I can give something back.
Chris
"Jerry Bransford" <jerrypb@mecox.net> wrote in message
news:UaJgb.47702$gv5.28652@fed1read05...
> Wow Chris, that was an insanely great post with great information. I
> learned a great deal from it, especially a far deeper understanding of why
> an inline six is generally thought of as a better low-end torque motor
than
> a V6 is. Thanks, that was an extremely well-written, and informative post
> with just the right amount of detail to back it up!
>
> Jerry
> --
> Jerry Bransford
> To email, remove 'me' from my email address
> KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
> See the Geezer Jeep at
> http://members.***.net/jerrypb/
>
> "c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
> news:s_Igb.22945$832.12007@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > The fact that an engine is an inline or V design has very little to do
> with
> > its power band, but it is a factor. The biggest factors in determining
the
> > RPM where peak torque occurs is the design of the induction and exhaust
> > systems. Probably the main factor of an inline engine that causes it to
> have
> > more low RPM torque than a V design is the fact that the intake runners
> are
> > usually much longer on the inline engine purely by design. One other
> factor
> > that will make an inline engine seem to have more torque is the fact
that
> > the weight of the crankshaft and connecting rods will create more
inertia.
> > This is great for low RPM use because the engine will not bog as easily.
> The
> > drawback for high RPM use is that the same inertia will resist fast RPM
> > increases in instances such as passing. also, most V design engines have
a
> > shorter stroke than an inline engine of the same displacement. This also
> > means that the inline engine will have smaller piston bores, which means
> > smaller valves, which "usually" means more low RPM torque. An engine's
> peak
> > torque occurs at the highest RPM that it can completely fill the
cylinders
> > (100% volumetric efficiency). Some of these guys that are racing the
rice
> > burners like the Toyota inline 6, are spinning them at ungodly high RPM,
> but
> > these engines have 4 valves per cylinder, small stroke/big bore/long
> > connecting rod design, and some very exotic induction and exhaust
systems.
> > OTOH, there are V6 engines used in cruising boats that basically idle
> along
> > all the time and have a max recommended RPM of about 4000. there are
also
> > 500 cubic inch V8 racing engines out there that don't make a bit of
torque
> > until 5 or 6000 RPM, such as in Pro Stock drag racing. These engines are
> > revved to about 9000 RPM during a quarter mile race. there again, these
> > engines have absolutely huge ports, cams, and carbs. Granted, some
engines
> > are not suited to low RPM use because there just isn't a good mix of
parts
> > to make them run like they should, but most of the common engines like
the
> > Dodge 318/360, Chevy 350, and Ford 302/351 have many good parts
available
> > for making a very torquey low RPM engine. The Jeep 4.0 and the AMC/Jeep
> 258
> > are a good place to start because they were made to run at lower RPM and
> > don't require much, if anything to make a good powerful off road type
> > engine.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:vo3oigj7eh5k07@corp.supernews.com...
> > > What you are forgetting about is the high torque at low speed is
exactly
> > > what you want when offroading, high torque at high speed is what you
> want
> > on
> > > the freeway. If the torque comes in at low speeds, then it will be all
> > used
> > > up at high speeds, and the ability to accellerate when you are already
> > doing
> > > 70 just isn't there.
> > >
> > > In an engine that is primarily intended for highway travel, you want
the
> > > torque and hp to be delivered at high engine speeds. This will allow
you
> > to
> > > pass other vehicles and climb long hills easily, maybe even speed up
> while
> > > doing it. In an engine that produces its torque at idle, there won't
be
> > any
> > > more torque available at higher speeds. The result is that climbing
long
> > > hills may not allow accelleration, and simply maintaining the speed
you
> > had
> > > at the bottom is all you can hope for when you get to the top. If you
> come
> > > up upon slower moving traffic, and have to slow down because the lane
> next
> > > to you is not empty, you might find that regaining the lost speed is
> > > difficult. But, for the trouble at highway speeds, you can pull stumps
> at
> > > idle. If your engine is designed primarily for highway work, then
using
> it
> > > in the low speed environment of offroading can be a real chore.
> > >
> > > So, I say again, which is better depends upon what you do more. The
> > > discussion isn't "any given gear" it is first gear vs 5th gear. The V6
> > > engine in the Liberty is primarily made for flying low to Grandma's
> house,
> > > so it will work much better on the freeway than the I6 in the TJ, but
> not
> > as
> > > good as the I6 when the desire is to go very slow in 1st gear.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > news:b102b6e4.0310060611.17644956@posting.google.c om...
> > > > I'm not sure I follow. In any given gear, isn't an engine going to
> > > > give you more power at a higher RPM? Isn't that why the gas pedal
is
> > > > called the "accelerator"? No one ever says "Hey, I need more power,
> > > > so let me take my foot off the gas pedal!" I don't know about you,
> > > > but whenever I need more speed or more power, I mash down on the
gas
> > > > pedal to raise the RPMs....
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I have a BMW with an I6 motor, and it revs to 7000 rpm, the I6 in
my
> > > Jeep is
> > > > > screaming at 3500. The BMW will easily stall from a stop sign on a
> > hill
> > > but
> > > > > it will cruise for hours at 100+ mph. The Jeep will pull stop
signs
> > out
> > > of
> > > > > the ground at idle, even on a hill, but it resists any attempt to
go
> > > faster
> > > > > than about 70 or 75, and it prefers to cruise at speeds in the 65
> > range.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, the I6/V6 question/debate must be refined to the specific V6
and
> > I6
> > > > > involved. In the case of the Jeep application (particularly the
TJ),
> > the
> > > I6
> > > > > is the preferred configuration for the reasons I told you about.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:b102b6e4.0310010603.6341e03b@posting.google.c om...
> > > > > > Very informative. Thank you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:<vnjv34cppj5q4d@corp.supernews.com>...
> > > > > > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:b102b6e4.0309301057.40e84a07@posting.google.c om...
> > > > > > > > What makes you think that the V6 is inferior to the I6? I
> have
> > > read
> > > > > > > > up on the features of Vs versus Is, and both types seem to
> have
> > a
> > > hard
> > > > > > > > core of fans who insist they are better... but from what I
as
> a
> > > layman
> > > > > > > > have read, neither engine style has an absolute edge over
the
> > > other
> > > > > > > > type.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The rule of thumb is that anything that makes a motor,
> suspension,
> > > > > anything,
> > > > > > > better for highway use detracts from the function in an
offroad
> > > > > environment,
> > > > > > > and vice versa. The V6 is a high revving motor that produces
its
> > > torque
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > horsepower numbers relatively high in the RPM range, the I6
will
> > > produce
> > > > > its
> > > > > > > torque just above idle speeds.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Let me illustrate the point, would you rather idle over
boulders
> > and
> > > > > stumps
> > > > > > > while gently feathering the gas to keep from stalling, or
would
> > you
> > > want
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > be holding the fuel supplier down so that the engine speed was
> > > boosted
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > the point that control was compromised? I want the torque at
> idle,
> > > not
> > > > > half
> > > > > > > way up the scale.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Highway travel demands the torque to be well up on the RPM
scale
> > > because
> > > > > > > that means there is a power reserve that one can tap to climb
> > hills,
> > > > > pass
> > > > > > > semis, that sort of thing. But, in offhighway travel, one
> prefers
> > > the
> > > > > torque
> > > > > > > and hp to come in at very low speeds.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you purpose to buy a Jeep was to drive cross country on the
> > > freeway
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > get to Grandma's house, you want the V6. But, if you are
wanting
> > to
> > > go
> > > > > trail
> > > > > > > riding, stump jumping, and rock crawling, then the V6 is the
> last
> > > motor
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > will want.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That said, I am sure that Bill will tell us about the old 225
ci
> > V6.
> > > > > This is
> > > > > > > a different beast than today's fuel injected high revving
V6's.
> > That
> > > old
> > > > > > > motor was among the most desireable off road motors to ever
> comme
> > > off
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > line.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > That 3.7L is a V6. The4.0L I6 is what will probably be on
it
> > > because
> > > > > that is
> > > > > > > > > the engine that comes on the other TJ models. At least I
> hope
> > > the V6
> > > > > is
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > one of the engine options.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
when I can give something back.
Chris
"Jerry Bransford" <jerrypb@mecox.net> wrote in message
news:UaJgb.47702$gv5.28652@fed1read05...
> Wow Chris, that was an insanely great post with great information. I
> learned a great deal from it, especially a far deeper understanding of why
> an inline six is generally thought of as a better low-end torque motor
than
> a V6 is. Thanks, that was an extremely well-written, and informative post
> with just the right amount of detail to back it up!
>
> Jerry
> --
> Jerry Bransford
> To email, remove 'me' from my email address
> KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
> See the Geezer Jeep at
> http://members.***.net/jerrypb/
>
> "c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
> news:s_Igb.22945$832.12007@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > The fact that an engine is an inline or V design has very little to do
> with
> > its power band, but it is a factor. The biggest factors in determining
the
> > RPM where peak torque occurs is the design of the induction and exhaust
> > systems. Probably the main factor of an inline engine that causes it to
> have
> > more low RPM torque than a V design is the fact that the intake runners
> are
> > usually much longer on the inline engine purely by design. One other
> factor
> > that will make an inline engine seem to have more torque is the fact
that
> > the weight of the crankshaft and connecting rods will create more
inertia.
> > This is great for low RPM use because the engine will not bog as easily.
> The
> > drawback for high RPM use is that the same inertia will resist fast RPM
> > increases in instances such as passing. also, most V design engines have
a
> > shorter stroke than an inline engine of the same displacement. This also
> > means that the inline engine will have smaller piston bores, which means
> > smaller valves, which "usually" means more low RPM torque. An engine's
> peak
> > torque occurs at the highest RPM that it can completely fill the
cylinders
> > (100% volumetric efficiency). Some of these guys that are racing the
rice
> > burners like the Toyota inline 6, are spinning them at ungodly high RPM,
> but
> > these engines have 4 valves per cylinder, small stroke/big bore/long
> > connecting rod design, and some very exotic induction and exhaust
systems.
> > OTOH, there are V6 engines used in cruising boats that basically idle
> along
> > all the time and have a max recommended RPM of about 4000. there are
also
> > 500 cubic inch V8 racing engines out there that don't make a bit of
torque
> > until 5 or 6000 RPM, such as in Pro Stock drag racing. These engines are
> > revved to about 9000 RPM during a quarter mile race. there again, these
> > engines have absolutely huge ports, cams, and carbs. Granted, some
engines
> > are not suited to low RPM use because there just isn't a good mix of
parts
> > to make them run like they should, but most of the common engines like
the
> > Dodge 318/360, Chevy 350, and Ford 302/351 have many good parts
available
> > for making a very torquey low RPM engine. The Jeep 4.0 and the AMC/Jeep
> 258
> > are a good place to start because they were made to run at lower RPM and
> > don't require much, if anything to make a good powerful off road type
> > engine.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:vo3oigj7eh5k07@corp.supernews.com...
> > > What you are forgetting about is the high torque at low speed is
exactly
> > > what you want when offroading, high torque at high speed is what you
> want
> > on
> > > the freeway. If the torque comes in at low speeds, then it will be all
> > used
> > > up at high speeds, and the ability to accellerate when you are already
> > doing
> > > 70 just isn't there.
> > >
> > > In an engine that is primarily intended for highway travel, you want
the
> > > torque and hp to be delivered at high engine speeds. This will allow
you
> > to
> > > pass other vehicles and climb long hills easily, maybe even speed up
> while
> > > doing it. In an engine that produces its torque at idle, there won't
be
> > any
> > > more torque available at higher speeds. The result is that climbing
long
> > > hills may not allow accelleration, and simply maintaining the speed
you
> > had
> > > at the bottom is all you can hope for when you get to the top. If you
> come
> > > up upon slower moving traffic, and have to slow down because the lane
> next
> > > to you is not empty, you might find that regaining the lost speed is
> > > difficult. But, for the trouble at highway speeds, you can pull stumps
> at
> > > idle. If your engine is designed primarily for highway work, then
using
> it
> > > in the low speed environment of offroading can be a real chore.
> > >
> > > So, I say again, which is better depends upon what you do more. The
> > > discussion isn't "any given gear" it is first gear vs 5th gear. The V6
> > > engine in the Liberty is primarily made for flying low to Grandma's
> house,
> > > so it will work much better on the freeway than the I6 in the TJ, but
> not
> > as
> > > good as the I6 when the desire is to go very slow in 1st gear.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > news:b102b6e4.0310060611.17644956@posting.google.c om...
> > > > I'm not sure I follow. In any given gear, isn't an engine going to
> > > > give you more power at a higher RPM? Isn't that why the gas pedal
is
> > > > called the "accelerator"? No one ever says "Hey, I need more power,
> > > > so let me take my foot off the gas pedal!" I don't know about you,
> > > > but whenever I need more speed or more power, I mash down on the
gas
> > > > pedal to raise the RPMs....
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I have a BMW with an I6 motor, and it revs to 7000 rpm, the I6 in
my
> > > Jeep is
> > > > > screaming at 3500. The BMW will easily stall from a stop sign on a
> > hill
> > > but
> > > > > it will cruise for hours at 100+ mph. The Jeep will pull stop
signs
> > out
> > > of
> > > > > the ground at idle, even on a hill, but it resists any attempt to
go
> > > faster
> > > > > than about 70 or 75, and it prefers to cruise at speeds in the 65
> > range.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, the I6/V6 question/debate must be refined to the specific V6
and
> > I6
> > > > > involved. In the case of the Jeep application (particularly the
TJ),
> > the
> > > I6
> > > > > is the preferred configuration for the reasons I told you about.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:b102b6e4.0310010603.6341e03b@posting.google.c om...
> > > > > > Very informative. Thank you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:<vnjv34cppj5q4d@corp.supernews.com>...
> > > > > > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:b102b6e4.0309301057.40e84a07@posting.google.c om...
> > > > > > > > What makes you think that the V6 is inferior to the I6? I
> have
> > > read
> > > > > > > > up on the features of Vs versus Is, and both types seem to
> have
> > a
> > > hard
> > > > > > > > core of fans who insist they are better... but from what I
as
> a
> > > layman
> > > > > > > > have read, neither engine style has an absolute edge over
the
> > > other
> > > > > > > > type.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The rule of thumb is that anything that makes a motor,
> suspension,
> > > > > anything,
> > > > > > > better for highway use detracts from the function in an
offroad
> > > > > environment,
> > > > > > > and vice versa. The V6 is a high revving motor that produces
its
> > > torque
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > horsepower numbers relatively high in the RPM range, the I6
will
> > > produce
> > > > > its
> > > > > > > torque just above idle speeds.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Let me illustrate the point, would you rather idle over
boulders
> > and
> > > > > stumps
> > > > > > > while gently feathering the gas to keep from stalling, or
would
> > you
> > > want
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > be holding the fuel supplier down so that the engine speed was
> > > boosted
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > the point that control was compromised? I want the torque at
> idle,
> > > not
> > > > > half
> > > > > > > way up the scale.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Highway travel demands the torque to be well up on the RPM
scale
> > > because
> > > > > > > that means there is a power reserve that one can tap to climb
> > hills,
> > > > > pass
> > > > > > > semis, that sort of thing. But, in offhighway travel, one
> prefers
> > > the
> > > > > torque
> > > > > > > and hp to come in at very low speeds.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you purpose to buy a Jeep was to drive cross country on the
> > > freeway
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > get to Grandma's house, you want the V6. But, if you are
wanting
> > to
> > > go
> > > > > trail
> > > > > > > riding, stump jumping, and rock crawling, then the V6 is the
> last
> > > motor
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > will want.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That said, I am sure that Bill will tell us about the old 225
ci
> > V6.
> > > > > This is
> > > > > > > a different beast than today's fuel injected high revving
V6's.
> > That
> > > old
> > > > > > > motor was among the most desireable off road motors to ever
> comme
> > > off
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > line.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > That 3.7L is a V6. The4.0L I6 is what will probably be on
it
> > > because
> > > > > that is
> > > > > > > > > the engine that comes on the other TJ models. At least I
> hope
> > > the V6
> > > > > is
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > one of the engine options.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
#65
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: More New Scrambler Details
Glad to help Jerry. I get so much good info from this group that I am happy
when I can give something back.
Chris
"Jerry Bransford" <jerrypb@mecox.net> wrote in message
news:UaJgb.47702$gv5.28652@fed1read05...
> Wow Chris, that was an insanely great post with great information. I
> learned a great deal from it, especially a far deeper understanding of why
> an inline six is generally thought of as a better low-end torque motor
than
> a V6 is. Thanks, that was an extremely well-written, and informative post
> with just the right amount of detail to back it up!
>
> Jerry
> --
> Jerry Bransford
> To email, remove 'me' from my email address
> KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
> See the Geezer Jeep at
> http://members.***.net/jerrypb/
>
> "c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
> news:s_Igb.22945$832.12007@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > The fact that an engine is an inline or V design has very little to do
> with
> > its power band, but it is a factor. The biggest factors in determining
the
> > RPM where peak torque occurs is the design of the induction and exhaust
> > systems. Probably the main factor of an inline engine that causes it to
> have
> > more low RPM torque than a V design is the fact that the intake runners
> are
> > usually much longer on the inline engine purely by design. One other
> factor
> > that will make an inline engine seem to have more torque is the fact
that
> > the weight of the crankshaft and connecting rods will create more
inertia.
> > This is great for low RPM use because the engine will not bog as easily.
> The
> > drawback for high RPM use is that the same inertia will resist fast RPM
> > increases in instances such as passing. also, most V design engines have
a
> > shorter stroke than an inline engine of the same displacement. This also
> > means that the inline engine will have smaller piston bores, which means
> > smaller valves, which "usually" means more low RPM torque. An engine's
> peak
> > torque occurs at the highest RPM that it can completely fill the
cylinders
> > (100% volumetric efficiency). Some of these guys that are racing the
rice
> > burners like the Toyota inline 6, are spinning them at ungodly high RPM,
> but
> > these engines have 4 valves per cylinder, small stroke/big bore/long
> > connecting rod design, and some very exotic induction and exhaust
systems.
> > OTOH, there are V6 engines used in cruising boats that basically idle
> along
> > all the time and have a max recommended RPM of about 4000. there are
also
> > 500 cubic inch V8 racing engines out there that don't make a bit of
torque
> > until 5 or 6000 RPM, such as in Pro Stock drag racing. These engines are
> > revved to about 9000 RPM during a quarter mile race. there again, these
> > engines have absolutely huge ports, cams, and carbs. Granted, some
engines
> > are not suited to low RPM use because there just isn't a good mix of
parts
> > to make them run like they should, but most of the common engines like
the
> > Dodge 318/360, Chevy 350, and Ford 302/351 have many good parts
available
> > for making a very torquey low RPM engine. The Jeep 4.0 and the AMC/Jeep
> 258
> > are a good place to start because they were made to run at lower RPM and
> > don't require much, if anything to make a good powerful off road type
> > engine.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:vo3oigj7eh5k07@corp.supernews.com...
> > > What you are forgetting about is the high torque at low speed is
exactly
> > > what you want when offroading, high torque at high speed is what you
> want
> > on
> > > the freeway. If the torque comes in at low speeds, then it will be all
> > used
> > > up at high speeds, and the ability to accellerate when you are already
> > doing
> > > 70 just isn't there.
> > >
> > > In an engine that is primarily intended for highway travel, you want
the
> > > torque and hp to be delivered at high engine speeds. This will allow
you
> > to
> > > pass other vehicles and climb long hills easily, maybe even speed up
> while
> > > doing it. In an engine that produces its torque at idle, there won't
be
> > any
> > > more torque available at higher speeds. The result is that climbing
long
> > > hills may not allow accelleration, and simply maintaining the speed
you
> > had
> > > at the bottom is all you can hope for when you get to the top. If you
> come
> > > up upon slower moving traffic, and have to slow down because the lane
> next
> > > to you is not empty, you might find that regaining the lost speed is
> > > difficult. But, for the trouble at highway speeds, you can pull stumps
> at
> > > idle. If your engine is designed primarily for highway work, then
using
> it
> > > in the low speed environment of offroading can be a real chore.
> > >
> > > So, I say again, which is better depends upon what you do more. The
> > > discussion isn't "any given gear" it is first gear vs 5th gear. The V6
> > > engine in the Liberty is primarily made for flying low to Grandma's
> house,
> > > so it will work much better on the freeway than the I6 in the TJ, but
> not
> > as
> > > good as the I6 when the desire is to go very slow in 1st gear.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > news:b102b6e4.0310060611.17644956@posting.google.c om...
> > > > I'm not sure I follow. In any given gear, isn't an engine going to
> > > > give you more power at a higher RPM? Isn't that why the gas pedal
is
> > > > called the "accelerator"? No one ever says "Hey, I need more power,
> > > > so let me take my foot off the gas pedal!" I don't know about you,
> > > > but whenever I need more speed or more power, I mash down on the
gas
> > > > pedal to raise the RPMs....
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I have a BMW with an I6 motor, and it revs to 7000 rpm, the I6 in
my
> > > Jeep is
> > > > > screaming at 3500. The BMW will easily stall from a stop sign on a
> > hill
> > > but
> > > > > it will cruise for hours at 100+ mph. The Jeep will pull stop
signs
> > out
> > > of
> > > > > the ground at idle, even on a hill, but it resists any attempt to
go
> > > faster
> > > > > than about 70 or 75, and it prefers to cruise at speeds in the 65
> > range.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, the I6/V6 question/debate must be refined to the specific V6
and
> > I6
> > > > > involved. In the case of the Jeep application (particularly the
TJ),
> > the
> > > I6
> > > > > is the preferred configuration for the reasons I told you about.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:b102b6e4.0310010603.6341e03b@posting.google.c om...
> > > > > > Very informative. Thank you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:<vnjv34cppj5q4d@corp.supernews.com>...
> > > > > > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:b102b6e4.0309301057.40e84a07@posting.google.c om...
> > > > > > > > What makes you think that the V6 is inferior to the I6? I
> have
> > > read
> > > > > > > > up on the features of Vs versus Is, and both types seem to
> have
> > a
> > > hard
> > > > > > > > core of fans who insist they are better... but from what I
as
> a
> > > layman
> > > > > > > > have read, neither engine style has an absolute edge over
the
> > > other
> > > > > > > > type.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The rule of thumb is that anything that makes a motor,
> suspension,
> > > > > anything,
> > > > > > > better for highway use detracts from the function in an
offroad
> > > > > environment,
> > > > > > > and vice versa. The V6 is a high revving motor that produces
its
> > > torque
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > horsepower numbers relatively high in the RPM range, the I6
will
> > > produce
> > > > > its
> > > > > > > torque just above idle speeds.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Let me illustrate the point, would you rather idle over
boulders
> > and
> > > > > stumps
> > > > > > > while gently feathering the gas to keep from stalling, or
would
> > you
> > > want
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > be holding the fuel supplier down so that the engine speed was
> > > boosted
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > the point that control was compromised? I want the torque at
> idle,
> > > not
> > > > > half
> > > > > > > way up the scale.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Highway travel demands the torque to be well up on the RPM
scale
> > > because
> > > > > > > that means there is a power reserve that one can tap to climb
> > hills,
> > > > > pass
> > > > > > > semis, that sort of thing. But, in offhighway travel, one
> prefers
> > > the
> > > > > torque
> > > > > > > and hp to come in at very low speeds.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you purpose to buy a Jeep was to drive cross country on the
> > > freeway
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > get to Grandma's house, you want the V6. But, if you are
wanting
> > to
> > > go
> > > > > trail
> > > > > > > riding, stump jumping, and rock crawling, then the V6 is the
> last
> > > motor
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > will want.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That said, I am sure that Bill will tell us about the old 225
ci
> > V6.
> > > > > This is
> > > > > > > a different beast than today's fuel injected high revving
V6's.
> > That
> > > old
> > > > > > > motor was among the most desireable off road motors to ever
> comme
> > > off
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > line.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > That 3.7L is a V6. The4.0L I6 is what will probably be on
it
> > > because
> > > > > that is
> > > > > > > > > the engine that comes on the other TJ models. At least I
> hope
> > > the V6
> > > > > is
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > one of the engine options.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
when I can give something back.
Chris
"Jerry Bransford" <jerrypb@mecox.net> wrote in message
news:UaJgb.47702$gv5.28652@fed1read05...
> Wow Chris, that was an insanely great post with great information. I
> learned a great deal from it, especially a far deeper understanding of why
> an inline six is generally thought of as a better low-end torque motor
than
> a V6 is. Thanks, that was an extremely well-written, and informative post
> with just the right amount of detail to back it up!
>
> Jerry
> --
> Jerry Bransford
> To email, remove 'me' from my email address
> KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
> See the Geezer Jeep at
> http://members.***.net/jerrypb/
>
> "c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
> news:s_Igb.22945$832.12007@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > The fact that an engine is an inline or V design has very little to do
> with
> > its power band, but it is a factor. The biggest factors in determining
the
> > RPM where peak torque occurs is the design of the induction and exhaust
> > systems. Probably the main factor of an inline engine that causes it to
> have
> > more low RPM torque than a V design is the fact that the intake runners
> are
> > usually much longer on the inline engine purely by design. One other
> factor
> > that will make an inline engine seem to have more torque is the fact
that
> > the weight of the crankshaft and connecting rods will create more
inertia.
> > This is great for low RPM use because the engine will not bog as easily.
> The
> > drawback for high RPM use is that the same inertia will resist fast RPM
> > increases in instances such as passing. also, most V design engines have
a
> > shorter stroke than an inline engine of the same displacement. This also
> > means that the inline engine will have smaller piston bores, which means
> > smaller valves, which "usually" means more low RPM torque. An engine's
> peak
> > torque occurs at the highest RPM that it can completely fill the
cylinders
> > (100% volumetric efficiency). Some of these guys that are racing the
rice
> > burners like the Toyota inline 6, are spinning them at ungodly high RPM,
> but
> > these engines have 4 valves per cylinder, small stroke/big bore/long
> > connecting rod design, and some very exotic induction and exhaust
systems.
> > OTOH, there are V6 engines used in cruising boats that basically idle
> along
> > all the time and have a max recommended RPM of about 4000. there are
also
> > 500 cubic inch V8 racing engines out there that don't make a bit of
torque
> > until 5 or 6000 RPM, such as in Pro Stock drag racing. These engines are
> > revved to about 9000 RPM during a quarter mile race. there again, these
> > engines have absolutely huge ports, cams, and carbs. Granted, some
engines
> > are not suited to low RPM use because there just isn't a good mix of
parts
> > to make them run like they should, but most of the common engines like
the
> > Dodge 318/360, Chevy 350, and Ford 302/351 have many good parts
available
> > for making a very torquey low RPM engine. The Jeep 4.0 and the AMC/Jeep
> 258
> > are a good place to start because they were made to run at lower RPM and
> > don't require much, if anything to make a good powerful off road type
> > engine.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:vo3oigj7eh5k07@corp.supernews.com...
> > > What you are forgetting about is the high torque at low speed is
exactly
> > > what you want when offroading, high torque at high speed is what you
> want
> > on
> > > the freeway. If the torque comes in at low speeds, then it will be all
> > used
> > > up at high speeds, and the ability to accellerate when you are already
> > doing
> > > 70 just isn't there.
> > >
> > > In an engine that is primarily intended for highway travel, you want
the
> > > torque and hp to be delivered at high engine speeds. This will allow
you
> > to
> > > pass other vehicles and climb long hills easily, maybe even speed up
> while
> > > doing it. In an engine that produces its torque at idle, there won't
be
> > any
> > > more torque available at higher speeds. The result is that climbing
long
> > > hills may not allow accelleration, and simply maintaining the speed
you
> > had
> > > at the bottom is all you can hope for when you get to the top. If you
> come
> > > up upon slower moving traffic, and have to slow down because the lane
> next
> > > to you is not empty, you might find that regaining the lost speed is
> > > difficult. But, for the trouble at highway speeds, you can pull stumps
> at
> > > idle. If your engine is designed primarily for highway work, then
using
> it
> > > in the low speed environment of offroading can be a real chore.
> > >
> > > So, I say again, which is better depends upon what you do more. The
> > > discussion isn't "any given gear" it is first gear vs 5th gear. The V6
> > > engine in the Liberty is primarily made for flying low to Grandma's
> house,
> > > so it will work much better on the freeway than the I6 in the TJ, but
> not
> > as
> > > good as the I6 when the desire is to go very slow in 1st gear.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > news:b102b6e4.0310060611.17644956@posting.google.c om...
> > > > I'm not sure I follow. In any given gear, isn't an engine going to
> > > > give you more power at a higher RPM? Isn't that why the gas pedal
is
> > > > called the "accelerator"? No one ever says "Hey, I need more power,
> > > > so let me take my foot off the gas pedal!" I don't know about you,
> > > > but whenever I need more speed or more power, I mash down on the
gas
> > > > pedal to raise the RPMs....
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I have a BMW with an I6 motor, and it revs to 7000 rpm, the I6 in
my
> > > Jeep is
> > > > > screaming at 3500. The BMW will easily stall from a stop sign on a
> > hill
> > > but
> > > > > it will cruise for hours at 100+ mph. The Jeep will pull stop
signs
> > out
> > > of
> > > > > the ground at idle, even on a hill, but it resists any attempt to
go
> > > faster
> > > > > than about 70 or 75, and it prefers to cruise at speeds in the 65
> > range.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, the I6/V6 question/debate must be refined to the specific V6
and
> > I6
> > > > > involved. In the case of the Jeep application (particularly the
TJ),
> > the
> > > I6
> > > > > is the preferred configuration for the reasons I told you about.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:b102b6e4.0310010603.6341e03b@posting.google.c om...
> > > > > > Very informative. Thank you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:<vnjv34cppj5q4d@corp.supernews.com>...
> > > > > > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:b102b6e4.0309301057.40e84a07@posting.google.c om...
> > > > > > > > What makes you think that the V6 is inferior to the I6? I
> have
> > > read
> > > > > > > > up on the features of Vs versus Is, and both types seem to
> have
> > a
> > > hard
> > > > > > > > core of fans who insist they are better... but from what I
as
> a
> > > layman
> > > > > > > > have read, neither engine style has an absolute edge over
the
> > > other
> > > > > > > > type.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The rule of thumb is that anything that makes a motor,
> suspension,
> > > > > anything,
> > > > > > > better for highway use detracts from the function in an
offroad
> > > > > environment,
> > > > > > > and vice versa. The V6 is a high revving motor that produces
its
> > > torque
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > horsepower numbers relatively high in the RPM range, the I6
will
> > > produce
> > > > > its
> > > > > > > torque just above idle speeds.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Let me illustrate the point, would you rather idle over
boulders
> > and
> > > > > stumps
> > > > > > > while gently feathering the gas to keep from stalling, or
would
> > you
> > > want
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > be holding the fuel supplier down so that the engine speed was
> > > boosted
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > the point that control was compromised? I want the torque at
> idle,
> > > not
> > > > > half
> > > > > > > way up the scale.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Highway travel demands the torque to be well up on the RPM
scale
> > > because
> > > > > > > that means there is a power reserve that one can tap to climb
> > hills,
> > > > > pass
> > > > > > > semis, that sort of thing. But, in offhighway travel, one
> prefers
> > > the
> > > > > torque
> > > > > > > and hp to come in at very low speeds.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you purpose to buy a Jeep was to drive cross country on the
> > > freeway
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > get to Grandma's house, you want the V6. But, if you are
wanting
> > to
> > > go
> > > > > trail
> > > > > > > riding, stump jumping, and rock crawling, then the V6 is the
> last
> > > motor
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > will want.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That said, I am sure that Bill will tell us about the old 225
ci
> > V6.
> > > > > This is
> > > > > > > a different beast than today's fuel injected high revving
V6's.
> > That
> > > old
> > > > > > > motor was among the most desireable off road motors to ever
> comme
> > > off
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > line.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > That 3.7L is a V6. The4.0L I6 is what will probably be on
it
> > > because
> > > > > that is
> > > > > > > > > the engine that comes on the other TJ models. At least I
> hope
> > > the V6
> > > > > is
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > one of the engine options.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
#66
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: More New Scrambler Details
> "There's No Replacement For Displacement."
I dunno about that. A buddy of mine has a 1990 Eagle Talon TSi Turbo
AWD. It's only a 4-cylinder engine. I am not sure of the exact
displacement, but it can't be more than 2.5 liters at the very most.
Yet with those twin turbos, it will blow away all but the beefiest of
muscle cars. I personally witnessed it smoke a 5.0 Mustang.
I dunno about that. A buddy of mine has a 1990 Eagle Talon TSi Turbo
AWD. It's only a 4-cylinder engine. I am not sure of the exact
displacement, but it can't be more than 2.5 liters at the very most.
Yet with those twin turbos, it will blow away all but the beefiest of
muscle cars. I personally witnessed it smoke a 5.0 Mustang.
#67
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: More New Scrambler Details
> "There's No Replacement For Displacement."
I dunno about that. A buddy of mine has a 1990 Eagle Talon TSi Turbo
AWD. It's only a 4-cylinder engine. I am not sure of the exact
displacement, but it can't be more than 2.5 liters at the very most.
Yet with those twin turbos, it will blow away all but the beefiest of
muscle cars. I personally witnessed it smoke a 5.0 Mustang.
I dunno about that. A buddy of mine has a 1990 Eagle Talon TSi Turbo
AWD. It's only a 4-cylinder engine. I am not sure of the exact
displacement, but it can't be more than 2.5 liters at the very most.
Yet with those twin turbos, it will blow away all but the beefiest of
muscle cars. I personally witnessed it smoke a 5.0 Mustang.
#68
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: More New Scrambler Details
> "There's No Replacement For Displacement."
I dunno about that. A buddy of mine has a 1990 Eagle Talon TSi Turbo
AWD. It's only a 4-cylinder engine. I am not sure of the exact
displacement, but it can't be more than 2.5 liters at the very most.
Yet with those twin turbos, it will blow away all but the beefiest of
muscle cars. I personally witnessed it smoke a 5.0 Mustang.
I dunno about that. A buddy of mine has a 1990 Eagle Talon TSi Turbo
AWD. It's only a 4-cylinder engine. I am not sure of the exact
displacement, but it can't be more than 2.5 liters at the very most.
Yet with those twin turbos, it will blow away all but the beefiest of
muscle cars. I personally witnessed it smoke a 5.0 Mustang.
#69
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: More New Scrambler Details
Yeah, it'd probably beat a 5.0 with twin turbos on it too.
Lesse...apples/oranges...oranges/apples...
ok! OK! I got it, let's compare a twin turbo, nitrous injected, mid
nineties ZX300, ported, polished, full race cam, open headers and
a...oh, say...a '73 Chevy Impala with four bent pushrods and a spun main
bearing...? How would that come out? Yeah, I guess you're
right...displacement has no bearing on it...
Joshua Nelson wrote:
>>"There's No Replacement For Displacement."
>
>
>
> I dunno about that. A buddy of mine has a 1990 Eagle Talon TSi Turbo
> AWD. It's only a 4-cylinder engine. I am not sure of the exact
> displacement, but it can't be more than 2.5 liters at the very most.
> Yet with those twin turbos, it will blow away all but the beefiest of
> muscle cars. I personally witnessed it smoke a 5.0 Mustang.
--
__________________________________________________ _________
tw
03 TJ Rubicon
01 XJ Sport
There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
-- Dave Barry
http://www.7slotgrille.com/jeepers/t...ron/index.html
(Please remove the OBVIOUS to reply by email)
__________________________________________________ _________
Lesse...apples/oranges...oranges/apples...
ok! OK! I got it, let's compare a twin turbo, nitrous injected, mid
nineties ZX300, ported, polished, full race cam, open headers and
a...oh, say...a '73 Chevy Impala with four bent pushrods and a spun main
bearing...? How would that come out? Yeah, I guess you're
right...displacement has no bearing on it...
Joshua Nelson wrote:
>>"There's No Replacement For Displacement."
>
>
>
> I dunno about that. A buddy of mine has a 1990 Eagle Talon TSi Turbo
> AWD. It's only a 4-cylinder engine. I am not sure of the exact
> displacement, but it can't be more than 2.5 liters at the very most.
> Yet with those twin turbos, it will blow away all but the beefiest of
> muscle cars. I personally witnessed it smoke a 5.0 Mustang.
--
__________________________________________________ _________
tw
03 TJ Rubicon
01 XJ Sport
There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
-- Dave Barry
http://www.7slotgrille.com/jeepers/t...ron/index.html
(Please remove the OBVIOUS to reply by email)
__________________________________________________ _________
#70
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: More New Scrambler Details
Yeah, it'd probably beat a 5.0 with twin turbos on it too.
Lesse...apples/oranges...oranges/apples...
ok! OK! I got it, let's compare a twin turbo, nitrous injected, mid
nineties ZX300, ported, polished, full race cam, open headers and
a...oh, say...a '73 Chevy Impala with four bent pushrods and a spun main
bearing...? How would that come out? Yeah, I guess you're
right...displacement has no bearing on it...
Joshua Nelson wrote:
>>"There's No Replacement For Displacement."
>
>
>
> I dunno about that. A buddy of mine has a 1990 Eagle Talon TSi Turbo
> AWD. It's only a 4-cylinder engine. I am not sure of the exact
> displacement, but it can't be more than 2.5 liters at the very most.
> Yet with those twin turbos, it will blow away all but the beefiest of
> muscle cars. I personally witnessed it smoke a 5.0 Mustang.
--
__________________________________________________ _________
tw
03 TJ Rubicon
01 XJ Sport
There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
-- Dave Barry
http://www.7slotgrille.com/jeepers/t...ron/index.html
(Please remove the OBVIOUS to reply by email)
__________________________________________________ _________
Lesse...apples/oranges...oranges/apples...
ok! OK! I got it, let's compare a twin turbo, nitrous injected, mid
nineties ZX300, ported, polished, full race cam, open headers and
a...oh, say...a '73 Chevy Impala with four bent pushrods and a spun main
bearing...? How would that come out? Yeah, I guess you're
right...displacement has no bearing on it...
Joshua Nelson wrote:
>>"There's No Replacement For Displacement."
>
>
>
> I dunno about that. A buddy of mine has a 1990 Eagle Talon TSi Turbo
> AWD. It's only a 4-cylinder engine. I am not sure of the exact
> displacement, but it can't be more than 2.5 liters at the very most.
> Yet with those twin turbos, it will blow away all but the beefiest of
> muscle cars. I personally witnessed it smoke a 5.0 Mustang.
--
__________________________________________________ _________
tw
03 TJ Rubicon
01 XJ Sport
There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
-- Dave Barry
http://www.7slotgrille.com/jeepers/t...ron/index.html
(Please remove the OBVIOUS to reply by email)
__________________________________________________ _________