More New Scrambler Details
#51
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: More New Scrambler Details
In article <XaGgb.59275$%h1.43385@sccrnsc02>, Lon Stowell
<LonDot.Stowell@ComcastPeriod.Net> writes:
>An example I can think
> of would be the chevrolet 427 that had so much torque at idle that
> you could not stop the !@#$# thing with the brakes if the clutch
> was locked up.
"There's No Replacement For Displacement."
* * *
Matt Macchiarolo
www.townpeddler.com
www.wolverine4wd.org
http://wolverine4wd.org/rigs/macchiarolo_ml.html
<LonDot.Stowell@ComcastPeriod.Net> writes:
>An example I can think
> of would be the chevrolet 427 that had so much torque at idle that
> you could not stop the !@#$# thing with the brakes if the clutch
> was locked up.
"There's No Replacement For Displacement."
* * *
Matt Macchiarolo
www.townpeddler.com
www.wolverine4wd.org
http://wolverine4wd.org/rigs/macchiarolo_ml.html
#52
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: More New Scrambler Details
In article <XaGgb.59275$%h1.43385@sccrnsc02>, Lon Stowell
<LonDot.Stowell@ComcastPeriod.Net> writes:
>An example I can think
> of would be the chevrolet 427 that had so much torque at idle that
> you could not stop the !@#$# thing with the brakes if the clutch
> was locked up.
"There's No Replacement For Displacement."
* * *
Matt Macchiarolo
www.townpeddler.com
www.wolverine4wd.org
http://wolverine4wd.org/rigs/macchiarolo_ml.html
<LonDot.Stowell@ComcastPeriod.Net> writes:
>An example I can think
> of would be the chevrolet 427 that had so much torque at idle that
> you could not stop the !@#$# thing with the brakes if the clutch
> was locked up.
"There's No Replacement For Displacement."
* * *
Matt Macchiarolo
www.townpeddler.com
www.wolverine4wd.org
http://wolverine4wd.org/rigs/macchiarolo_ml.html
#53
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: More New Scrambler Details
In article <XaGgb.59275$%h1.43385@sccrnsc02>, Lon Stowell
<LonDot.Stowell@ComcastPeriod.Net> writes:
>An example I can think
> of would be the chevrolet 427 that had so much torque at idle that
> you could not stop the !@#$# thing with the brakes if the clutch
> was locked up.
"There's No Replacement For Displacement."
* * *
Matt Macchiarolo
www.townpeddler.com
www.wolverine4wd.org
http://wolverine4wd.org/rigs/macchiarolo_ml.html
<LonDot.Stowell@ComcastPeriod.Net> writes:
>An example I can think
> of would be the chevrolet 427 that had so much torque at idle that
> you could not stop the !@#$# thing with the brakes if the clutch
> was locked up.
"There's No Replacement For Displacement."
* * *
Matt Macchiarolo
www.townpeddler.com
www.wolverine4wd.org
http://wolverine4wd.org/rigs/macchiarolo_ml.html
#54
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: More New Scrambler Details
The fact that an engine is an inline or V design has very little to do with
its power band, but it is a factor. The biggest factors in determining the
RPM where peak torque occurs is the design of the induction and exhaust
systems. Probably the main factor of an inline engine that causes it to have
more low RPM torque than a V design is the fact that the intake runners are
usually much longer on the inline engine purely by design. One other factor
that will make an inline engine seem to have more torque is the fact that
the weight of the crankshaft and connecting rods will create more inertia.
This is great for low RPM use because the engine will not bog as easily. The
drawback for high RPM use is that the same inertia will resist fast RPM
increases in instances such as passing. also, most V design engines have a
shorter stroke than an inline engine of the same displacement. This also
means that the inline engine will have smaller piston bores, which means
smaller valves, which "usually" means more low RPM torque. An engine's peak
torque occurs at the highest RPM that it can completely fill the cylinders
(100% volumetric efficiency). Some of these guys that are racing the rice
burners like the Toyota inline 6, are spinning them at ungodly high RPM, but
these engines have 4 valves per cylinder, small stroke/big bore/long
connecting rod design, and some very exotic induction and exhaust systems.
OTOH, there are V6 engines used in cruising boats that basically idle along
all the time and have a max recommended RPM of about 4000. there are also
500 cubic inch V8 racing engines out there that don't make a bit of torque
until 5 or 6000 RPM, such as in Pro Stock drag racing. These engines are
revved to about 9000 RPM during a quarter mile race. there again, these
engines have absolutely huge ports, cams, and carbs. Granted, some engines
are not suited to low RPM use because there just isn't a good mix of parts
to make them run like they should, but most of the common engines like the
Dodge 318/360, Chevy 350, and Ford 302/351 have many good parts available
for making a very torquey low RPM engine. The Jeep 4.0 and the AMC/Jeep 258
are a good place to start because they were made to run at lower RPM and
don't require much, if anything to make a good powerful off road type
engine.
Chris
"Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vo3oigj7eh5k07@corp.supernews.com...
> What you are forgetting about is the high torque at low speed is exactly
> what you want when offroading, high torque at high speed is what you want
on
> the freeway. If the torque comes in at low speeds, then it will be all
used
> up at high speeds, and the ability to accellerate when you are already
doing
> 70 just isn't there.
>
> In an engine that is primarily intended for highway travel, you want the
> torque and hp to be delivered at high engine speeds. This will allow you
to
> pass other vehicles and climb long hills easily, maybe even speed up while
> doing it. In an engine that produces its torque at idle, there won't be
any
> more torque available at higher speeds. The result is that climbing long
> hills may not allow accelleration, and simply maintaining the speed you
had
> at the bottom is all you can hope for when you get to the top. If you come
> up upon slower moving traffic, and have to slow down because the lane next
> to you is not empty, you might find that regaining the lost speed is
> difficult. But, for the trouble at highway speeds, you can pull stumps at
> idle. If your engine is designed primarily for highway work, then using it
> in the low speed environment of offroading can be a real chore.
>
> So, I say again, which is better depends upon what you do more. The
> discussion isn't "any given gear" it is first gear vs 5th gear. The V6
> engine in the Liberty is primarily made for flying low to Grandma's house,
> so it will work much better on the freeway than the I6 in the TJ, but not
as
> good as the I6 when the desire is to go very slow in 1st gear.
>
>
>
>
> "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> news:b102b6e4.0310060611.17644956@posting.google.c om...
> > I'm not sure I follow. In any given gear, isn't an engine going to
> > give you more power at a higher RPM? Isn't that why the gas pedal is
> > called the "accelerator"? No one ever says "Hey, I need more power,
> > so let me take my foot off the gas pedal!" I don't know about you,
> > but whenever I need more speed or more power, I mash down on the gas
> > pedal to raise the RPMs....
> >
> >
> > > I have a BMW with an I6 motor, and it revs to 7000 rpm, the I6 in my
> Jeep is
> > > screaming at 3500. The BMW will easily stall from a stop sign on a
hill
> but
> > > it will cruise for hours at 100+ mph. The Jeep will pull stop signs
out
> of
> > > the ground at idle, even on a hill, but it resists any attempt to go
> faster
> > > than about 70 or 75, and it prefers to cruise at speeds in the 65
range.
> > >
> > > So, the I6/V6 question/debate must be refined to the specific V6 and
I6
> > > involved. In the case of the Jeep application (particularly the TJ),
the
> I6
> > > is the preferred configuration for the reasons I told you about.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > news:b102b6e4.0310010603.6341e03b@posting.google.c om...
> > > > Very informative. Thank you.
> > > >
> > > > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:<vnjv34cppj5q4d@corp.supernews.com>...
> > > > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:b102b6e4.0309301057.40e84a07@posting.google.c om...
> > > > > > What makes you think that the V6 is inferior to the I6? I have
> read
> > > > > > up on the features of Vs versus Is, and both types seem to have
a
> hard
> > > > > > core of fans who insist they are better... but from what I as a
> layman
> > > > > > have read, neither engine style has an absolute edge over the
> other
> > > > > > type.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The rule of thumb is that anything that makes a motor, suspension,
> > > anything,
> > > > > better for highway use detracts from the function in an offroad
> > > environment,
> > > > > and vice versa. The V6 is a high revving motor that produces its
> torque
> > > and
> > > > > horsepower numbers relatively high in the RPM range, the I6 will
> produce
> > > its
> > > > > torque just above idle speeds.
> > > > >
> > > > > Let me illustrate the point, would you rather idle over boulders
and
> > > stumps
> > > > > while gently feathering the gas to keep from stalling, or would
you
> want
> > > to
> > > > > be holding the fuel supplier down so that the engine speed was
> boosted
> > > to
> > > > > the point that control was compromised? I want the torque at idle,
> not
> > > half
> > > > > way up the scale.
> > > > >
> > > > > Highway travel demands the torque to be well up on the RPM scale
> because
> > > > > that means there is a power reserve that one can tap to climb
hills,
> > > pass
> > > > > semis, that sort of thing. But, in offhighway travel, one prefers
> the
> > > torque
> > > > > and hp to come in at very low speeds.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you purpose to buy a Jeep was to drive cross country on the
> freeway
> > > to
> > > > > get to Grandma's house, you want the V6. But, if you are wanting
to
> go
> > > trail
> > > > > riding, stump jumping, and rock crawling, then the V6 is the last
> motor
> > > you
> > > > > will want.
> > > > >
> > > > > That said, I am sure that Bill will tell us about the old 225 ci
V6.
> > > This is
> > > > > a different beast than today's fuel injected high revving V6's.
That
> old
> > > > > motor was among the most desireable off road motors to ever comme
> off
> > > the
> > > > > line.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > That 3.7L is a V6. The4.0L I6 is what will probably be on it
> because
> > > that is
> > > > > > > the engine that comes on the other TJ models. At least I hope
> the V6
> > > is
> > > not
> > > > > > > one of the engine options.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
>
its power band, but it is a factor. The biggest factors in determining the
RPM where peak torque occurs is the design of the induction and exhaust
systems. Probably the main factor of an inline engine that causes it to have
more low RPM torque than a V design is the fact that the intake runners are
usually much longer on the inline engine purely by design. One other factor
that will make an inline engine seem to have more torque is the fact that
the weight of the crankshaft and connecting rods will create more inertia.
This is great for low RPM use because the engine will not bog as easily. The
drawback for high RPM use is that the same inertia will resist fast RPM
increases in instances such as passing. also, most V design engines have a
shorter stroke than an inline engine of the same displacement. This also
means that the inline engine will have smaller piston bores, which means
smaller valves, which "usually" means more low RPM torque. An engine's peak
torque occurs at the highest RPM that it can completely fill the cylinders
(100% volumetric efficiency). Some of these guys that are racing the rice
burners like the Toyota inline 6, are spinning them at ungodly high RPM, but
these engines have 4 valves per cylinder, small stroke/big bore/long
connecting rod design, and some very exotic induction and exhaust systems.
OTOH, there are V6 engines used in cruising boats that basically idle along
all the time and have a max recommended RPM of about 4000. there are also
500 cubic inch V8 racing engines out there that don't make a bit of torque
until 5 or 6000 RPM, such as in Pro Stock drag racing. These engines are
revved to about 9000 RPM during a quarter mile race. there again, these
engines have absolutely huge ports, cams, and carbs. Granted, some engines
are not suited to low RPM use because there just isn't a good mix of parts
to make them run like they should, but most of the common engines like the
Dodge 318/360, Chevy 350, and Ford 302/351 have many good parts available
for making a very torquey low RPM engine. The Jeep 4.0 and the AMC/Jeep 258
are a good place to start because they were made to run at lower RPM and
don't require much, if anything to make a good powerful off road type
engine.
Chris
"Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vo3oigj7eh5k07@corp.supernews.com...
> What you are forgetting about is the high torque at low speed is exactly
> what you want when offroading, high torque at high speed is what you want
on
> the freeway. If the torque comes in at low speeds, then it will be all
used
> up at high speeds, and the ability to accellerate when you are already
doing
> 70 just isn't there.
>
> In an engine that is primarily intended for highway travel, you want the
> torque and hp to be delivered at high engine speeds. This will allow you
to
> pass other vehicles and climb long hills easily, maybe even speed up while
> doing it. In an engine that produces its torque at idle, there won't be
any
> more torque available at higher speeds. The result is that climbing long
> hills may not allow accelleration, and simply maintaining the speed you
had
> at the bottom is all you can hope for when you get to the top. If you come
> up upon slower moving traffic, and have to slow down because the lane next
> to you is not empty, you might find that regaining the lost speed is
> difficult. But, for the trouble at highway speeds, you can pull stumps at
> idle. If your engine is designed primarily for highway work, then using it
> in the low speed environment of offroading can be a real chore.
>
> So, I say again, which is better depends upon what you do more. The
> discussion isn't "any given gear" it is first gear vs 5th gear. The V6
> engine in the Liberty is primarily made for flying low to Grandma's house,
> so it will work much better on the freeway than the I6 in the TJ, but not
as
> good as the I6 when the desire is to go very slow in 1st gear.
>
>
>
>
> "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> news:b102b6e4.0310060611.17644956@posting.google.c om...
> > I'm not sure I follow. In any given gear, isn't an engine going to
> > give you more power at a higher RPM? Isn't that why the gas pedal is
> > called the "accelerator"? No one ever says "Hey, I need more power,
> > so let me take my foot off the gas pedal!" I don't know about you,
> > but whenever I need more speed or more power, I mash down on the gas
> > pedal to raise the RPMs....
> >
> >
> > > I have a BMW with an I6 motor, and it revs to 7000 rpm, the I6 in my
> Jeep is
> > > screaming at 3500. The BMW will easily stall from a stop sign on a
hill
> but
> > > it will cruise for hours at 100+ mph. The Jeep will pull stop signs
out
> of
> > > the ground at idle, even on a hill, but it resists any attempt to go
> faster
> > > than about 70 or 75, and it prefers to cruise at speeds in the 65
range.
> > >
> > > So, the I6/V6 question/debate must be refined to the specific V6 and
I6
> > > involved. In the case of the Jeep application (particularly the TJ),
the
> I6
> > > is the preferred configuration for the reasons I told you about.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > news:b102b6e4.0310010603.6341e03b@posting.google.c om...
> > > > Very informative. Thank you.
> > > >
> > > > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:<vnjv34cppj5q4d@corp.supernews.com>...
> > > > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:b102b6e4.0309301057.40e84a07@posting.google.c om...
> > > > > > What makes you think that the V6 is inferior to the I6? I have
> read
> > > > > > up on the features of Vs versus Is, and both types seem to have
a
> hard
> > > > > > core of fans who insist they are better... but from what I as a
> layman
> > > > > > have read, neither engine style has an absolute edge over the
> other
> > > > > > type.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The rule of thumb is that anything that makes a motor, suspension,
> > > anything,
> > > > > better for highway use detracts from the function in an offroad
> > > environment,
> > > > > and vice versa. The V6 is a high revving motor that produces its
> torque
> > > and
> > > > > horsepower numbers relatively high in the RPM range, the I6 will
> produce
> > > its
> > > > > torque just above idle speeds.
> > > > >
> > > > > Let me illustrate the point, would you rather idle over boulders
and
> > > stumps
> > > > > while gently feathering the gas to keep from stalling, or would
you
> want
> > > to
> > > > > be holding the fuel supplier down so that the engine speed was
> boosted
> > > to
> > > > > the point that control was compromised? I want the torque at idle,
> not
> > > half
> > > > > way up the scale.
> > > > >
> > > > > Highway travel demands the torque to be well up on the RPM scale
> because
> > > > > that means there is a power reserve that one can tap to climb
hills,
> > > pass
> > > > > semis, that sort of thing. But, in offhighway travel, one prefers
> the
> > > torque
> > > > > and hp to come in at very low speeds.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you purpose to buy a Jeep was to drive cross country on the
> freeway
> > > to
> > > > > get to Grandma's house, you want the V6. But, if you are wanting
to
> go
> > > trail
> > > > > riding, stump jumping, and rock crawling, then the V6 is the last
> motor
> > > you
> > > > > will want.
> > > > >
> > > > > That said, I am sure that Bill will tell us about the old 225 ci
V6.
> > > This is
> > > > > a different beast than today's fuel injected high revving V6's.
That
> old
> > > > > motor was among the most desireable off road motors to ever comme
> off
> > > the
> > > > > line.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > That 3.7L is a V6. The4.0L I6 is what will probably be on it
> because
> > > that is
> > > > > > > the engine that comes on the other TJ models. At least I hope
> the V6
> > > is
> > > not
> > > > > > > one of the engine options.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
>
#55
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: More New Scrambler Details
The fact that an engine is an inline or V design has very little to do with
its power band, but it is a factor. The biggest factors in determining the
RPM where peak torque occurs is the design of the induction and exhaust
systems. Probably the main factor of an inline engine that causes it to have
more low RPM torque than a V design is the fact that the intake runners are
usually much longer on the inline engine purely by design. One other factor
that will make an inline engine seem to have more torque is the fact that
the weight of the crankshaft and connecting rods will create more inertia.
This is great for low RPM use because the engine will not bog as easily. The
drawback for high RPM use is that the same inertia will resist fast RPM
increases in instances such as passing. also, most V design engines have a
shorter stroke than an inline engine of the same displacement. This also
means that the inline engine will have smaller piston bores, which means
smaller valves, which "usually" means more low RPM torque. An engine's peak
torque occurs at the highest RPM that it can completely fill the cylinders
(100% volumetric efficiency). Some of these guys that are racing the rice
burners like the Toyota inline 6, are spinning them at ungodly high RPM, but
these engines have 4 valves per cylinder, small stroke/big bore/long
connecting rod design, and some very exotic induction and exhaust systems.
OTOH, there are V6 engines used in cruising boats that basically idle along
all the time and have a max recommended RPM of about 4000. there are also
500 cubic inch V8 racing engines out there that don't make a bit of torque
until 5 or 6000 RPM, such as in Pro Stock drag racing. These engines are
revved to about 9000 RPM during a quarter mile race. there again, these
engines have absolutely huge ports, cams, and carbs. Granted, some engines
are not suited to low RPM use because there just isn't a good mix of parts
to make them run like they should, but most of the common engines like the
Dodge 318/360, Chevy 350, and Ford 302/351 have many good parts available
for making a very torquey low RPM engine. The Jeep 4.0 and the AMC/Jeep 258
are a good place to start because they were made to run at lower RPM and
don't require much, if anything to make a good powerful off road type
engine.
Chris
"Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vo3oigj7eh5k07@corp.supernews.com...
> What you are forgetting about is the high torque at low speed is exactly
> what you want when offroading, high torque at high speed is what you want
on
> the freeway. If the torque comes in at low speeds, then it will be all
used
> up at high speeds, and the ability to accellerate when you are already
doing
> 70 just isn't there.
>
> In an engine that is primarily intended for highway travel, you want the
> torque and hp to be delivered at high engine speeds. This will allow you
to
> pass other vehicles and climb long hills easily, maybe even speed up while
> doing it. In an engine that produces its torque at idle, there won't be
any
> more torque available at higher speeds. The result is that climbing long
> hills may not allow accelleration, and simply maintaining the speed you
had
> at the bottom is all you can hope for when you get to the top. If you come
> up upon slower moving traffic, and have to slow down because the lane next
> to you is not empty, you might find that regaining the lost speed is
> difficult. But, for the trouble at highway speeds, you can pull stumps at
> idle. If your engine is designed primarily for highway work, then using it
> in the low speed environment of offroading can be a real chore.
>
> So, I say again, which is better depends upon what you do more. The
> discussion isn't "any given gear" it is first gear vs 5th gear. The V6
> engine in the Liberty is primarily made for flying low to Grandma's house,
> so it will work much better on the freeway than the I6 in the TJ, but not
as
> good as the I6 when the desire is to go very slow in 1st gear.
>
>
>
>
> "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> news:b102b6e4.0310060611.17644956@posting.google.c om...
> > I'm not sure I follow. In any given gear, isn't an engine going to
> > give you more power at a higher RPM? Isn't that why the gas pedal is
> > called the "accelerator"? No one ever says "Hey, I need more power,
> > so let me take my foot off the gas pedal!" I don't know about you,
> > but whenever I need more speed or more power, I mash down on the gas
> > pedal to raise the RPMs....
> >
> >
> > > I have a BMW with an I6 motor, and it revs to 7000 rpm, the I6 in my
> Jeep is
> > > screaming at 3500. The BMW will easily stall from a stop sign on a
hill
> but
> > > it will cruise for hours at 100+ mph. The Jeep will pull stop signs
out
> of
> > > the ground at idle, even on a hill, but it resists any attempt to go
> faster
> > > than about 70 or 75, and it prefers to cruise at speeds in the 65
range.
> > >
> > > So, the I6/V6 question/debate must be refined to the specific V6 and
I6
> > > involved. In the case of the Jeep application (particularly the TJ),
the
> I6
> > > is the preferred configuration for the reasons I told you about.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > news:b102b6e4.0310010603.6341e03b@posting.google.c om...
> > > > Very informative. Thank you.
> > > >
> > > > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:<vnjv34cppj5q4d@corp.supernews.com>...
> > > > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:b102b6e4.0309301057.40e84a07@posting.google.c om...
> > > > > > What makes you think that the V6 is inferior to the I6? I have
> read
> > > > > > up on the features of Vs versus Is, and both types seem to have
a
> hard
> > > > > > core of fans who insist they are better... but from what I as a
> layman
> > > > > > have read, neither engine style has an absolute edge over the
> other
> > > > > > type.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The rule of thumb is that anything that makes a motor, suspension,
> > > anything,
> > > > > better for highway use detracts from the function in an offroad
> > > environment,
> > > > > and vice versa. The V6 is a high revving motor that produces its
> torque
> > > and
> > > > > horsepower numbers relatively high in the RPM range, the I6 will
> produce
> > > its
> > > > > torque just above idle speeds.
> > > > >
> > > > > Let me illustrate the point, would you rather idle over boulders
and
> > > stumps
> > > > > while gently feathering the gas to keep from stalling, or would
you
> want
> > > to
> > > > > be holding the fuel supplier down so that the engine speed was
> boosted
> > > to
> > > > > the point that control was compromised? I want the torque at idle,
> not
> > > half
> > > > > way up the scale.
> > > > >
> > > > > Highway travel demands the torque to be well up on the RPM scale
> because
> > > > > that means there is a power reserve that one can tap to climb
hills,
> > > pass
> > > > > semis, that sort of thing. But, in offhighway travel, one prefers
> the
> > > torque
> > > > > and hp to come in at very low speeds.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you purpose to buy a Jeep was to drive cross country on the
> freeway
> > > to
> > > > > get to Grandma's house, you want the V6. But, if you are wanting
to
> go
> > > trail
> > > > > riding, stump jumping, and rock crawling, then the V6 is the last
> motor
> > > you
> > > > > will want.
> > > > >
> > > > > That said, I am sure that Bill will tell us about the old 225 ci
V6.
> > > This is
> > > > > a different beast than today's fuel injected high revving V6's.
That
> old
> > > > > motor was among the most desireable off road motors to ever comme
> off
> > > the
> > > > > line.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > That 3.7L is a V6. The4.0L I6 is what will probably be on it
> because
> > > that is
> > > > > > > the engine that comes on the other TJ models. At least I hope
> the V6
> > > is
> > > not
> > > > > > > one of the engine options.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
>
its power band, but it is a factor. The biggest factors in determining the
RPM where peak torque occurs is the design of the induction and exhaust
systems. Probably the main factor of an inline engine that causes it to have
more low RPM torque than a V design is the fact that the intake runners are
usually much longer on the inline engine purely by design. One other factor
that will make an inline engine seem to have more torque is the fact that
the weight of the crankshaft and connecting rods will create more inertia.
This is great for low RPM use because the engine will not bog as easily. The
drawback for high RPM use is that the same inertia will resist fast RPM
increases in instances such as passing. also, most V design engines have a
shorter stroke than an inline engine of the same displacement. This also
means that the inline engine will have smaller piston bores, which means
smaller valves, which "usually" means more low RPM torque. An engine's peak
torque occurs at the highest RPM that it can completely fill the cylinders
(100% volumetric efficiency). Some of these guys that are racing the rice
burners like the Toyota inline 6, are spinning them at ungodly high RPM, but
these engines have 4 valves per cylinder, small stroke/big bore/long
connecting rod design, and some very exotic induction and exhaust systems.
OTOH, there are V6 engines used in cruising boats that basically idle along
all the time and have a max recommended RPM of about 4000. there are also
500 cubic inch V8 racing engines out there that don't make a bit of torque
until 5 or 6000 RPM, such as in Pro Stock drag racing. These engines are
revved to about 9000 RPM during a quarter mile race. there again, these
engines have absolutely huge ports, cams, and carbs. Granted, some engines
are not suited to low RPM use because there just isn't a good mix of parts
to make them run like they should, but most of the common engines like the
Dodge 318/360, Chevy 350, and Ford 302/351 have many good parts available
for making a very torquey low RPM engine. The Jeep 4.0 and the AMC/Jeep 258
are a good place to start because they were made to run at lower RPM and
don't require much, if anything to make a good powerful off road type
engine.
Chris
"Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vo3oigj7eh5k07@corp.supernews.com...
> What you are forgetting about is the high torque at low speed is exactly
> what you want when offroading, high torque at high speed is what you want
on
> the freeway. If the torque comes in at low speeds, then it will be all
used
> up at high speeds, and the ability to accellerate when you are already
doing
> 70 just isn't there.
>
> In an engine that is primarily intended for highway travel, you want the
> torque and hp to be delivered at high engine speeds. This will allow you
to
> pass other vehicles and climb long hills easily, maybe even speed up while
> doing it. In an engine that produces its torque at idle, there won't be
any
> more torque available at higher speeds. The result is that climbing long
> hills may not allow accelleration, and simply maintaining the speed you
had
> at the bottom is all you can hope for when you get to the top. If you come
> up upon slower moving traffic, and have to slow down because the lane next
> to you is not empty, you might find that regaining the lost speed is
> difficult. But, for the trouble at highway speeds, you can pull stumps at
> idle. If your engine is designed primarily for highway work, then using it
> in the low speed environment of offroading can be a real chore.
>
> So, I say again, which is better depends upon what you do more. The
> discussion isn't "any given gear" it is first gear vs 5th gear. The V6
> engine in the Liberty is primarily made for flying low to Grandma's house,
> so it will work much better on the freeway than the I6 in the TJ, but not
as
> good as the I6 when the desire is to go very slow in 1st gear.
>
>
>
>
> "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> news:b102b6e4.0310060611.17644956@posting.google.c om...
> > I'm not sure I follow. In any given gear, isn't an engine going to
> > give you more power at a higher RPM? Isn't that why the gas pedal is
> > called the "accelerator"? No one ever says "Hey, I need more power,
> > so let me take my foot off the gas pedal!" I don't know about you,
> > but whenever I need more speed or more power, I mash down on the gas
> > pedal to raise the RPMs....
> >
> >
> > > I have a BMW with an I6 motor, and it revs to 7000 rpm, the I6 in my
> Jeep is
> > > screaming at 3500. The BMW will easily stall from a stop sign on a
hill
> but
> > > it will cruise for hours at 100+ mph. The Jeep will pull stop signs
out
> of
> > > the ground at idle, even on a hill, but it resists any attempt to go
> faster
> > > than about 70 or 75, and it prefers to cruise at speeds in the 65
range.
> > >
> > > So, the I6/V6 question/debate must be refined to the specific V6 and
I6
> > > involved. In the case of the Jeep application (particularly the TJ),
the
> I6
> > > is the preferred configuration for the reasons I told you about.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > news:b102b6e4.0310010603.6341e03b@posting.google.c om...
> > > > Very informative. Thank you.
> > > >
> > > > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:<vnjv34cppj5q4d@corp.supernews.com>...
> > > > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:b102b6e4.0309301057.40e84a07@posting.google.c om...
> > > > > > What makes you think that the V6 is inferior to the I6? I have
> read
> > > > > > up on the features of Vs versus Is, and both types seem to have
a
> hard
> > > > > > core of fans who insist they are better... but from what I as a
> layman
> > > > > > have read, neither engine style has an absolute edge over the
> other
> > > > > > type.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The rule of thumb is that anything that makes a motor, suspension,
> > > anything,
> > > > > better for highway use detracts from the function in an offroad
> > > environment,
> > > > > and vice versa. The V6 is a high revving motor that produces its
> torque
> > > and
> > > > > horsepower numbers relatively high in the RPM range, the I6 will
> produce
> > > its
> > > > > torque just above idle speeds.
> > > > >
> > > > > Let me illustrate the point, would you rather idle over boulders
and
> > > stumps
> > > > > while gently feathering the gas to keep from stalling, or would
you
> want
> > > to
> > > > > be holding the fuel supplier down so that the engine speed was
> boosted
> > > to
> > > > > the point that control was compromised? I want the torque at idle,
> not
> > > half
> > > > > way up the scale.
> > > > >
> > > > > Highway travel demands the torque to be well up on the RPM scale
> because
> > > > > that means there is a power reserve that one can tap to climb
hills,
> > > pass
> > > > > semis, that sort of thing. But, in offhighway travel, one prefers
> the
> > > torque
> > > > > and hp to come in at very low speeds.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you purpose to buy a Jeep was to drive cross country on the
> freeway
> > > to
> > > > > get to Grandma's house, you want the V6. But, if you are wanting
to
> go
> > > trail
> > > > > riding, stump jumping, and rock crawling, then the V6 is the last
> motor
> > > you
> > > > > will want.
> > > > >
> > > > > That said, I am sure that Bill will tell us about the old 225 ci
V6.
> > > This is
> > > > > a different beast than today's fuel injected high revving V6's.
That
> old
> > > > > motor was among the most desireable off road motors to ever comme
> off
> > > the
> > > > > line.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > That 3.7L is a V6. The4.0L I6 is what will probably be on it
> because
> > > that is
> > > > > > > the engine that comes on the other TJ models. At least I hope
> the V6
> > > is
> > > not
> > > > > > > one of the engine options.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
>
#56
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: More New Scrambler Details
The fact that an engine is an inline or V design has very little to do with
its power band, but it is a factor. The biggest factors in determining the
RPM where peak torque occurs is the design of the induction and exhaust
systems. Probably the main factor of an inline engine that causes it to have
more low RPM torque than a V design is the fact that the intake runners are
usually much longer on the inline engine purely by design. One other factor
that will make an inline engine seem to have more torque is the fact that
the weight of the crankshaft and connecting rods will create more inertia.
This is great for low RPM use because the engine will not bog as easily. The
drawback for high RPM use is that the same inertia will resist fast RPM
increases in instances such as passing. also, most V design engines have a
shorter stroke than an inline engine of the same displacement. This also
means that the inline engine will have smaller piston bores, which means
smaller valves, which "usually" means more low RPM torque. An engine's peak
torque occurs at the highest RPM that it can completely fill the cylinders
(100% volumetric efficiency). Some of these guys that are racing the rice
burners like the Toyota inline 6, are spinning them at ungodly high RPM, but
these engines have 4 valves per cylinder, small stroke/big bore/long
connecting rod design, and some very exotic induction and exhaust systems.
OTOH, there are V6 engines used in cruising boats that basically idle along
all the time and have a max recommended RPM of about 4000. there are also
500 cubic inch V8 racing engines out there that don't make a bit of torque
until 5 or 6000 RPM, such as in Pro Stock drag racing. These engines are
revved to about 9000 RPM during a quarter mile race. there again, these
engines have absolutely huge ports, cams, and carbs. Granted, some engines
are not suited to low RPM use because there just isn't a good mix of parts
to make them run like they should, but most of the common engines like the
Dodge 318/360, Chevy 350, and Ford 302/351 have many good parts available
for making a very torquey low RPM engine. The Jeep 4.0 and the AMC/Jeep 258
are a good place to start because they were made to run at lower RPM and
don't require much, if anything to make a good powerful off road type
engine.
Chris
"Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vo3oigj7eh5k07@corp.supernews.com...
> What you are forgetting about is the high torque at low speed is exactly
> what you want when offroading, high torque at high speed is what you want
on
> the freeway. If the torque comes in at low speeds, then it will be all
used
> up at high speeds, and the ability to accellerate when you are already
doing
> 70 just isn't there.
>
> In an engine that is primarily intended for highway travel, you want the
> torque and hp to be delivered at high engine speeds. This will allow you
to
> pass other vehicles and climb long hills easily, maybe even speed up while
> doing it. In an engine that produces its torque at idle, there won't be
any
> more torque available at higher speeds. The result is that climbing long
> hills may not allow accelleration, and simply maintaining the speed you
had
> at the bottom is all you can hope for when you get to the top. If you come
> up upon slower moving traffic, and have to slow down because the lane next
> to you is not empty, you might find that regaining the lost speed is
> difficult. But, for the trouble at highway speeds, you can pull stumps at
> idle. If your engine is designed primarily for highway work, then using it
> in the low speed environment of offroading can be a real chore.
>
> So, I say again, which is better depends upon what you do more. The
> discussion isn't "any given gear" it is first gear vs 5th gear. The V6
> engine in the Liberty is primarily made for flying low to Grandma's house,
> so it will work much better on the freeway than the I6 in the TJ, but not
as
> good as the I6 when the desire is to go very slow in 1st gear.
>
>
>
>
> "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> news:b102b6e4.0310060611.17644956@posting.google.c om...
> > I'm not sure I follow. In any given gear, isn't an engine going to
> > give you more power at a higher RPM? Isn't that why the gas pedal is
> > called the "accelerator"? No one ever says "Hey, I need more power,
> > so let me take my foot off the gas pedal!" I don't know about you,
> > but whenever I need more speed or more power, I mash down on the gas
> > pedal to raise the RPMs....
> >
> >
> > > I have a BMW with an I6 motor, and it revs to 7000 rpm, the I6 in my
> Jeep is
> > > screaming at 3500. The BMW will easily stall from a stop sign on a
hill
> but
> > > it will cruise for hours at 100+ mph. The Jeep will pull stop signs
out
> of
> > > the ground at idle, even on a hill, but it resists any attempt to go
> faster
> > > than about 70 or 75, and it prefers to cruise at speeds in the 65
range.
> > >
> > > So, the I6/V6 question/debate must be refined to the specific V6 and
I6
> > > involved. In the case of the Jeep application (particularly the TJ),
the
> I6
> > > is the preferred configuration for the reasons I told you about.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > news:b102b6e4.0310010603.6341e03b@posting.google.c om...
> > > > Very informative. Thank you.
> > > >
> > > > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:<vnjv34cppj5q4d@corp.supernews.com>...
> > > > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:b102b6e4.0309301057.40e84a07@posting.google.c om...
> > > > > > What makes you think that the V6 is inferior to the I6? I have
> read
> > > > > > up on the features of Vs versus Is, and both types seem to have
a
> hard
> > > > > > core of fans who insist they are better... but from what I as a
> layman
> > > > > > have read, neither engine style has an absolute edge over the
> other
> > > > > > type.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The rule of thumb is that anything that makes a motor, suspension,
> > > anything,
> > > > > better for highway use detracts from the function in an offroad
> > > environment,
> > > > > and vice versa. The V6 is a high revving motor that produces its
> torque
> > > and
> > > > > horsepower numbers relatively high in the RPM range, the I6 will
> produce
> > > its
> > > > > torque just above idle speeds.
> > > > >
> > > > > Let me illustrate the point, would you rather idle over boulders
and
> > > stumps
> > > > > while gently feathering the gas to keep from stalling, or would
you
> want
> > > to
> > > > > be holding the fuel supplier down so that the engine speed was
> boosted
> > > to
> > > > > the point that control was compromised? I want the torque at idle,
> not
> > > half
> > > > > way up the scale.
> > > > >
> > > > > Highway travel demands the torque to be well up on the RPM scale
> because
> > > > > that means there is a power reserve that one can tap to climb
hills,
> > > pass
> > > > > semis, that sort of thing. But, in offhighway travel, one prefers
> the
> > > torque
> > > > > and hp to come in at very low speeds.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you purpose to buy a Jeep was to drive cross country on the
> freeway
> > > to
> > > > > get to Grandma's house, you want the V6. But, if you are wanting
to
> go
> > > trail
> > > > > riding, stump jumping, and rock crawling, then the V6 is the last
> motor
> > > you
> > > > > will want.
> > > > >
> > > > > That said, I am sure that Bill will tell us about the old 225 ci
V6.
> > > This is
> > > > > a different beast than today's fuel injected high revving V6's.
That
> old
> > > > > motor was among the most desireable off road motors to ever comme
> off
> > > the
> > > > > line.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > That 3.7L is a V6. The4.0L I6 is what will probably be on it
> because
> > > that is
> > > > > > > the engine that comes on the other TJ models. At least I hope
> the V6
> > > is
> > > not
> > > > > > > one of the engine options.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
>
its power band, but it is a factor. The biggest factors in determining the
RPM where peak torque occurs is the design of the induction and exhaust
systems. Probably the main factor of an inline engine that causes it to have
more low RPM torque than a V design is the fact that the intake runners are
usually much longer on the inline engine purely by design. One other factor
that will make an inline engine seem to have more torque is the fact that
the weight of the crankshaft and connecting rods will create more inertia.
This is great for low RPM use because the engine will not bog as easily. The
drawback for high RPM use is that the same inertia will resist fast RPM
increases in instances such as passing. also, most V design engines have a
shorter stroke than an inline engine of the same displacement. This also
means that the inline engine will have smaller piston bores, which means
smaller valves, which "usually" means more low RPM torque. An engine's peak
torque occurs at the highest RPM that it can completely fill the cylinders
(100% volumetric efficiency). Some of these guys that are racing the rice
burners like the Toyota inline 6, are spinning them at ungodly high RPM, but
these engines have 4 valves per cylinder, small stroke/big bore/long
connecting rod design, and some very exotic induction and exhaust systems.
OTOH, there are V6 engines used in cruising boats that basically idle along
all the time and have a max recommended RPM of about 4000. there are also
500 cubic inch V8 racing engines out there that don't make a bit of torque
until 5 or 6000 RPM, such as in Pro Stock drag racing. These engines are
revved to about 9000 RPM during a quarter mile race. there again, these
engines have absolutely huge ports, cams, and carbs. Granted, some engines
are not suited to low RPM use because there just isn't a good mix of parts
to make them run like they should, but most of the common engines like the
Dodge 318/360, Chevy 350, and Ford 302/351 have many good parts available
for making a very torquey low RPM engine. The Jeep 4.0 and the AMC/Jeep 258
are a good place to start because they were made to run at lower RPM and
don't require much, if anything to make a good powerful off road type
engine.
Chris
"Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vo3oigj7eh5k07@corp.supernews.com...
> What you are forgetting about is the high torque at low speed is exactly
> what you want when offroading, high torque at high speed is what you want
on
> the freeway. If the torque comes in at low speeds, then it will be all
used
> up at high speeds, and the ability to accellerate when you are already
doing
> 70 just isn't there.
>
> In an engine that is primarily intended for highway travel, you want the
> torque and hp to be delivered at high engine speeds. This will allow you
to
> pass other vehicles and climb long hills easily, maybe even speed up while
> doing it. In an engine that produces its torque at idle, there won't be
any
> more torque available at higher speeds. The result is that climbing long
> hills may not allow accelleration, and simply maintaining the speed you
had
> at the bottom is all you can hope for when you get to the top. If you come
> up upon slower moving traffic, and have to slow down because the lane next
> to you is not empty, you might find that regaining the lost speed is
> difficult. But, for the trouble at highway speeds, you can pull stumps at
> idle. If your engine is designed primarily for highway work, then using it
> in the low speed environment of offroading can be a real chore.
>
> So, I say again, which is better depends upon what you do more. The
> discussion isn't "any given gear" it is first gear vs 5th gear. The V6
> engine in the Liberty is primarily made for flying low to Grandma's house,
> so it will work much better on the freeway than the I6 in the TJ, but not
as
> good as the I6 when the desire is to go very slow in 1st gear.
>
>
>
>
> "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> news:b102b6e4.0310060611.17644956@posting.google.c om...
> > I'm not sure I follow. In any given gear, isn't an engine going to
> > give you more power at a higher RPM? Isn't that why the gas pedal is
> > called the "accelerator"? No one ever says "Hey, I need more power,
> > so let me take my foot off the gas pedal!" I don't know about you,
> > but whenever I need more speed or more power, I mash down on the gas
> > pedal to raise the RPMs....
> >
> >
> > > I have a BMW with an I6 motor, and it revs to 7000 rpm, the I6 in my
> Jeep is
> > > screaming at 3500. The BMW will easily stall from a stop sign on a
hill
> but
> > > it will cruise for hours at 100+ mph. The Jeep will pull stop signs
out
> of
> > > the ground at idle, even on a hill, but it resists any attempt to go
> faster
> > > than about 70 or 75, and it prefers to cruise at speeds in the 65
range.
> > >
> > > So, the I6/V6 question/debate must be refined to the specific V6 and
I6
> > > involved. In the case of the Jeep application (particularly the TJ),
the
> I6
> > > is the preferred configuration for the reasons I told you about.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > news:b102b6e4.0310010603.6341e03b@posting.google.c om...
> > > > Very informative. Thank you.
> > > >
> > > > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:<vnjv34cppj5q4d@corp.supernews.com>...
> > > > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:b102b6e4.0309301057.40e84a07@posting.google.c om...
> > > > > > What makes you think that the V6 is inferior to the I6? I have
> read
> > > > > > up on the features of Vs versus Is, and both types seem to have
a
> hard
> > > > > > core of fans who insist they are better... but from what I as a
> layman
> > > > > > have read, neither engine style has an absolute edge over the
> other
> > > > > > type.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The rule of thumb is that anything that makes a motor, suspension,
> > > anything,
> > > > > better for highway use detracts from the function in an offroad
> > > environment,
> > > > > and vice versa. The V6 is a high revving motor that produces its
> torque
> > > and
> > > > > horsepower numbers relatively high in the RPM range, the I6 will
> produce
> > > its
> > > > > torque just above idle speeds.
> > > > >
> > > > > Let me illustrate the point, would you rather idle over boulders
and
> > > stumps
> > > > > while gently feathering the gas to keep from stalling, or would
you
> want
> > > to
> > > > > be holding the fuel supplier down so that the engine speed was
> boosted
> > > to
> > > > > the point that control was compromised? I want the torque at idle,
> not
> > > half
> > > > > way up the scale.
> > > > >
> > > > > Highway travel demands the torque to be well up on the RPM scale
> because
> > > > > that means there is a power reserve that one can tap to climb
hills,
> > > pass
> > > > > semis, that sort of thing. But, in offhighway travel, one prefers
> the
> > > torque
> > > > > and hp to come in at very low speeds.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you purpose to buy a Jeep was to drive cross country on the
> freeway
> > > to
> > > > > get to Grandma's house, you want the V6. But, if you are wanting
to
> go
> > > trail
> > > > > riding, stump jumping, and rock crawling, then the V6 is the last
> motor
> > > you
> > > > > will want.
> > > > >
> > > > > That said, I am sure that Bill will tell us about the old 225 ci
V6.
> > > This is
> > > > > a different beast than today's fuel injected high revving V6's.
That
> old
> > > > > motor was among the most desireable off road motors to ever comme
> off
> > > the
> > > > > line.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > That 3.7L is a V6. The4.0L I6 is what will probably be on it
> because
> > > that is
> > > > > > > the engine that comes on the other TJ models. At least I hope
> the V6
> > > is
> > > not
> > > > > > > one of the engine options.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
>
#57
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: More New Scrambler Details
Wow Chris, that was an insanely great post with great information. I
learned a great deal from it, especially a far deeper understanding of why
an inline six is generally thought of as a better low-end torque motor than
a V6 is. Thanks, that was an extremely well-written, and informative post
with just the right amount of detail to back it up!
Jerry
--
Jerry Bransford
To email, remove 'me' from my email address
KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
See the Geezer Jeep at
http://members.***.net/jerrypb/
"c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
news:s_Igb.22945$832.12007@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> The fact that an engine is an inline or V design has very little to do
with
> its power band, but it is a factor. The biggest factors in determining the
> RPM where peak torque occurs is the design of the induction and exhaust
> systems. Probably the main factor of an inline engine that causes it to
have
> more low RPM torque than a V design is the fact that the intake runners
are
> usually much longer on the inline engine purely by design. One other
factor
> that will make an inline engine seem to have more torque is the fact that
> the weight of the crankshaft and connecting rods will create more inertia.
> This is great for low RPM use because the engine will not bog as easily.
The
> drawback for high RPM use is that the same inertia will resist fast RPM
> increases in instances such as passing. also, most V design engines have a
> shorter stroke than an inline engine of the same displacement. This also
> means that the inline engine will have smaller piston bores, which means
> smaller valves, which "usually" means more low RPM torque. An engine's
peak
> torque occurs at the highest RPM that it can completely fill the cylinders
> (100% volumetric efficiency). Some of these guys that are racing the rice
> burners like the Toyota inline 6, are spinning them at ungodly high RPM,
but
> these engines have 4 valves per cylinder, small stroke/big bore/long
> connecting rod design, and some very exotic induction and exhaust systems.
> OTOH, there are V6 engines used in cruising boats that basically idle
along
> all the time and have a max recommended RPM of about 4000. there are also
> 500 cubic inch V8 racing engines out there that don't make a bit of torque
> until 5 or 6000 RPM, such as in Pro Stock drag racing. These engines are
> revved to about 9000 RPM during a quarter mile race. there again, these
> engines have absolutely huge ports, cams, and carbs. Granted, some engines
> are not suited to low RPM use because there just isn't a good mix of parts
> to make them run like they should, but most of the common engines like the
> Dodge 318/360, Chevy 350, and Ford 302/351 have many good parts available
> for making a very torquey low RPM engine. The Jeep 4.0 and the AMC/Jeep
258
> are a good place to start because they were made to run at lower RPM and
> don't require much, if anything to make a good powerful off road type
> engine.
>
> Chris
>
>
> "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:vo3oigj7eh5k07@corp.supernews.com...
> > What you are forgetting about is the high torque at low speed is exactly
> > what you want when offroading, high torque at high speed is what you
want
> on
> > the freeway. If the torque comes in at low speeds, then it will be all
> used
> > up at high speeds, and the ability to accellerate when you are already
> doing
> > 70 just isn't there.
> >
> > In an engine that is primarily intended for highway travel, you want the
> > torque and hp to be delivered at high engine speeds. This will allow you
> to
> > pass other vehicles and climb long hills easily, maybe even speed up
while
> > doing it. In an engine that produces its torque at idle, there won't be
> any
> > more torque available at higher speeds. The result is that climbing long
> > hills may not allow accelleration, and simply maintaining the speed you
> had
> > at the bottom is all you can hope for when you get to the top. If you
come
> > up upon slower moving traffic, and have to slow down because the lane
next
> > to you is not empty, you might find that regaining the lost speed is
> > difficult. But, for the trouble at highway speeds, you can pull stumps
at
> > idle. If your engine is designed primarily for highway work, then using
it
> > in the low speed environment of offroading can be a real chore.
> >
> > So, I say again, which is better depends upon what you do more. The
> > discussion isn't "any given gear" it is first gear vs 5th gear. The V6
> > engine in the Liberty is primarily made for flying low to Grandma's
house,
> > so it will work much better on the freeway than the I6 in the TJ, but
not
> as
> > good as the I6 when the desire is to go very slow in 1st gear.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > news:b102b6e4.0310060611.17644956@posting.google.c om...
> > > I'm not sure I follow. In any given gear, isn't an engine going to
> > > give you more power at a higher RPM? Isn't that why the gas pedal is
> > > called the "accelerator"? No one ever says "Hey, I need more power,
> > > so let me take my foot off the gas pedal!" I don't know about you,
> > > but whenever I need more speed or more power, I mash down on the gas
> > > pedal to raise the RPMs....
> > >
> > >
> > > > I have a BMW with an I6 motor, and it revs to 7000 rpm, the I6 in my
> > Jeep is
> > > > screaming at 3500. The BMW will easily stall from a stop sign on a
> hill
> > but
> > > > it will cruise for hours at 100+ mph. The Jeep will pull stop signs
> out
> > of
> > > > the ground at idle, even on a hill, but it resists any attempt to go
> > faster
> > > > than about 70 or 75, and it prefers to cruise at speeds in the 65
> range.
> > > >
> > > > So, the I6/V6 question/debate must be refined to the specific V6 and
> I6
> > > > involved. In the case of the Jeep application (particularly the TJ),
> the
> > I6
> > > > is the preferred configuration for the reasons I told you about.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:b102b6e4.0310010603.6341e03b@posting.google.c om...
> > > > > Very informative. Thank you.
> > > > >
> > > > > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:<vnjv34cppj5q4d@corp.supernews.com>...
> > > > > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:b102b6e4.0309301057.40e84a07@posting.google.c om...
> > > > > > > What makes you think that the V6 is inferior to the I6? I
have
> > read
> > > > > > > up on the features of Vs versus Is, and both types seem to
have
> a
> > hard
> > > > > > > core of fans who insist they are better... but from what I as
a
> > layman
> > > > > > > have read, neither engine style has an absolute edge over the
> > other
> > > > > > > type.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The rule of thumb is that anything that makes a motor,
suspension,
> > > > anything,
> > > > > > better for highway use detracts from the function in an offroad
> > > > environment,
> > > > > > and vice versa. The V6 is a high revving motor that produces its
> > torque
> > > > and
> > > > > > horsepower numbers relatively high in the RPM range, the I6 will
> > produce
> > > > its
> > > > > > torque just above idle speeds.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Let me illustrate the point, would you rather idle over boulders
> and
> > > > stumps
> > > > > > while gently feathering the gas to keep from stalling, or would
> you
> > want
> > > > to
> > > > > > be holding the fuel supplier down so that the engine speed was
> > boosted
> > > > to
> > > > > > the point that control was compromised? I want the torque at
idle,
> > not
> > > > half
> > > > > > way up the scale.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Highway travel demands the torque to be well up on the RPM scale
> > because
> > > > > > that means there is a power reserve that one can tap to climb
> hills,
> > > > pass
> > > > > > semis, that sort of thing. But, in offhighway travel, one
prefers
> > the
> > > > torque
> > > > > > and hp to come in at very low speeds.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you purpose to buy a Jeep was to drive cross country on the
> > freeway
> > > > to
> > > > > > get to Grandma's house, you want the V6. But, if you are wanting
> to
> > go
> > > > trail
> > > > > > riding, stump jumping, and rock crawling, then the V6 is the
last
> > motor
> > > > you
> > > > > > will want.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That said, I am sure that Bill will tell us about the old 225 ci
> V6.
> > > > This is
> > > > > > a different beast than today's fuel injected high revving V6's.
> That
> > old
> > > > > > motor was among the most desireable off road motors to ever
comme
> > off
> > > > the
> > > > > > line.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That 3.7L is a V6. The4.0L I6 is what will probably be on it
> > because
> > > > that is
> > > > > > > > the engine that comes on the other TJ models. At least I
hope
> > the V6
> > > > is
> > > > not
> > > > > > > > one of the engine options.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> >
>
>
learned a great deal from it, especially a far deeper understanding of why
an inline six is generally thought of as a better low-end torque motor than
a V6 is. Thanks, that was an extremely well-written, and informative post
with just the right amount of detail to back it up!
Jerry
--
Jerry Bransford
To email, remove 'me' from my email address
KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
See the Geezer Jeep at
http://members.***.net/jerrypb/
"c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
news:s_Igb.22945$832.12007@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> The fact that an engine is an inline or V design has very little to do
with
> its power band, but it is a factor. The biggest factors in determining the
> RPM where peak torque occurs is the design of the induction and exhaust
> systems. Probably the main factor of an inline engine that causes it to
have
> more low RPM torque than a V design is the fact that the intake runners
are
> usually much longer on the inline engine purely by design. One other
factor
> that will make an inline engine seem to have more torque is the fact that
> the weight of the crankshaft and connecting rods will create more inertia.
> This is great for low RPM use because the engine will not bog as easily.
The
> drawback for high RPM use is that the same inertia will resist fast RPM
> increases in instances such as passing. also, most V design engines have a
> shorter stroke than an inline engine of the same displacement. This also
> means that the inline engine will have smaller piston bores, which means
> smaller valves, which "usually" means more low RPM torque. An engine's
peak
> torque occurs at the highest RPM that it can completely fill the cylinders
> (100% volumetric efficiency). Some of these guys that are racing the rice
> burners like the Toyota inline 6, are spinning them at ungodly high RPM,
but
> these engines have 4 valves per cylinder, small stroke/big bore/long
> connecting rod design, and some very exotic induction and exhaust systems.
> OTOH, there are V6 engines used in cruising boats that basically idle
along
> all the time and have a max recommended RPM of about 4000. there are also
> 500 cubic inch V8 racing engines out there that don't make a bit of torque
> until 5 or 6000 RPM, such as in Pro Stock drag racing. These engines are
> revved to about 9000 RPM during a quarter mile race. there again, these
> engines have absolutely huge ports, cams, and carbs. Granted, some engines
> are not suited to low RPM use because there just isn't a good mix of parts
> to make them run like they should, but most of the common engines like the
> Dodge 318/360, Chevy 350, and Ford 302/351 have many good parts available
> for making a very torquey low RPM engine. The Jeep 4.0 and the AMC/Jeep
258
> are a good place to start because they were made to run at lower RPM and
> don't require much, if anything to make a good powerful off road type
> engine.
>
> Chris
>
>
> "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:vo3oigj7eh5k07@corp.supernews.com...
> > What you are forgetting about is the high torque at low speed is exactly
> > what you want when offroading, high torque at high speed is what you
want
> on
> > the freeway. If the torque comes in at low speeds, then it will be all
> used
> > up at high speeds, and the ability to accellerate when you are already
> doing
> > 70 just isn't there.
> >
> > In an engine that is primarily intended for highway travel, you want the
> > torque and hp to be delivered at high engine speeds. This will allow you
> to
> > pass other vehicles and climb long hills easily, maybe even speed up
while
> > doing it. In an engine that produces its torque at idle, there won't be
> any
> > more torque available at higher speeds. The result is that climbing long
> > hills may not allow accelleration, and simply maintaining the speed you
> had
> > at the bottom is all you can hope for when you get to the top. If you
come
> > up upon slower moving traffic, and have to slow down because the lane
next
> > to you is not empty, you might find that regaining the lost speed is
> > difficult. But, for the trouble at highway speeds, you can pull stumps
at
> > idle. If your engine is designed primarily for highway work, then using
it
> > in the low speed environment of offroading can be a real chore.
> >
> > So, I say again, which is better depends upon what you do more. The
> > discussion isn't "any given gear" it is first gear vs 5th gear. The V6
> > engine in the Liberty is primarily made for flying low to Grandma's
house,
> > so it will work much better on the freeway than the I6 in the TJ, but
not
> as
> > good as the I6 when the desire is to go very slow in 1st gear.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > news:b102b6e4.0310060611.17644956@posting.google.c om...
> > > I'm not sure I follow. In any given gear, isn't an engine going to
> > > give you more power at a higher RPM? Isn't that why the gas pedal is
> > > called the "accelerator"? No one ever says "Hey, I need more power,
> > > so let me take my foot off the gas pedal!" I don't know about you,
> > > but whenever I need more speed or more power, I mash down on the gas
> > > pedal to raise the RPMs....
> > >
> > >
> > > > I have a BMW with an I6 motor, and it revs to 7000 rpm, the I6 in my
> > Jeep is
> > > > screaming at 3500. The BMW will easily stall from a stop sign on a
> hill
> > but
> > > > it will cruise for hours at 100+ mph. The Jeep will pull stop signs
> out
> > of
> > > > the ground at idle, even on a hill, but it resists any attempt to go
> > faster
> > > > than about 70 or 75, and it prefers to cruise at speeds in the 65
> range.
> > > >
> > > > So, the I6/V6 question/debate must be refined to the specific V6 and
> I6
> > > > involved. In the case of the Jeep application (particularly the TJ),
> the
> > I6
> > > > is the preferred configuration for the reasons I told you about.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:b102b6e4.0310010603.6341e03b@posting.google.c om...
> > > > > Very informative. Thank you.
> > > > >
> > > > > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:<vnjv34cppj5q4d@corp.supernews.com>...
> > > > > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:b102b6e4.0309301057.40e84a07@posting.google.c om...
> > > > > > > What makes you think that the V6 is inferior to the I6? I
have
> > read
> > > > > > > up on the features of Vs versus Is, and both types seem to
have
> a
> > hard
> > > > > > > core of fans who insist they are better... but from what I as
a
> > layman
> > > > > > > have read, neither engine style has an absolute edge over the
> > other
> > > > > > > type.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The rule of thumb is that anything that makes a motor,
suspension,
> > > > anything,
> > > > > > better for highway use detracts from the function in an offroad
> > > > environment,
> > > > > > and vice versa. The V6 is a high revving motor that produces its
> > torque
> > > > and
> > > > > > horsepower numbers relatively high in the RPM range, the I6 will
> > produce
> > > > its
> > > > > > torque just above idle speeds.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Let me illustrate the point, would you rather idle over boulders
> and
> > > > stumps
> > > > > > while gently feathering the gas to keep from stalling, or would
> you
> > want
> > > > to
> > > > > > be holding the fuel supplier down so that the engine speed was
> > boosted
> > > > to
> > > > > > the point that control was compromised? I want the torque at
idle,
> > not
> > > > half
> > > > > > way up the scale.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Highway travel demands the torque to be well up on the RPM scale
> > because
> > > > > > that means there is a power reserve that one can tap to climb
> hills,
> > > > pass
> > > > > > semis, that sort of thing. But, in offhighway travel, one
prefers
> > the
> > > > torque
> > > > > > and hp to come in at very low speeds.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you purpose to buy a Jeep was to drive cross country on the
> > freeway
> > > > to
> > > > > > get to Grandma's house, you want the V6. But, if you are wanting
> to
> > go
> > > > trail
> > > > > > riding, stump jumping, and rock crawling, then the V6 is the
last
> > motor
> > > > you
> > > > > > will want.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That said, I am sure that Bill will tell us about the old 225 ci
> V6.
> > > > This is
> > > > > > a different beast than today's fuel injected high revving V6's.
> That
> > old
> > > > > > motor was among the most desireable off road motors to ever
comme
> > off
> > > > the
> > > > > > line.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That 3.7L is a V6. The4.0L I6 is what will probably be on it
> > because
> > > > that is
> > > > > > > > the engine that comes on the other TJ models. At least I
hope
> > the V6
> > > > is
> > > > not
> > > > > > > > one of the engine options.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> >
>
>
#58
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: More New Scrambler Details
Wow Chris, that was an insanely great post with great information. I
learned a great deal from it, especially a far deeper understanding of why
an inline six is generally thought of as a better low-end torque motor than
a V6 is. Thanks, that was an extremely well-written, and informative post
with just the right amount of detail to back it up!
Jerry
--
Jerry Bransford
To email, remove 'me' from my email address
KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
See the Geezer Jeep at
http://members.***.net/jerrypb/
"c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
news:s_Igb.22945$832.12007@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> The fact that an engine is an inline or V design has very little to do
with
> its power band, but it is a factor. The biggest factors in determining the
> RPM where peak torque occurs is the design of the induction and exhaust
> systems. Probably the main factor of an inline engine that causes it to
have
> more low RPM torque than a V design is the fact that the intake runners
are
> usually much longer on the inline engine purely by design. One other
factor
> that will make an inline engine seem to have more torque is the fact that
> the weight of the crankshaft and connecting rods will create more inertia.
> This is great for low RPM use because the engine will not bog as easily.
The
> drawback for high RPM use is that the same inertia will resist fast RPM
> increases in instances such as passing. also, most V design engines have a
> shorter stroke than an inline engine of the same displacement. This also
> means that the inline engine will have smaller piston bores, which means
> smaller valves, which "usually" means more low RPM torque. An engine's
peak
> torque occurs at the highest RPM that it can completely fill the cylinders
> (100% volumetric efficiency). Some of these guys that are racing the rice
> burners like the Toyota inline 6, are spinning them at ungodly high RPM,
but
> these engines have 4 valves per cylinder, small stroke/big bore/long
> connecting rod design, and some very exotic induction and exhaust systems.
> OTOH, there are V6 engines used in cruising boats that basically idle
along
> all the time and have a max recommended RPM of about 4000. there are also
> 500 cubic inch V8 racing engines out there that don't make a bit of torque
> until 5 or 6000 RPM, such as in Pro Stock drag racing. These engines are
> revved to about 9000 RPM during a quarter mile race. there again, these
> engines have absolutely huge ports, cams, and carbs. Granted, some engines
> are not suited to low RPM use because there just isn't a good mix of parts
> to make them run like they should, but most of the common engines like the
> Dodge 318/360, Chevy 350, and Ford 302/351 have many good parts available
> for making a very torquey low RPM engine. The Jeep 4.0 and the AMC/Jeep
258
> are a good place to start because they were made to run at lower RPM and
> don't require much, if anything to make a good powerful off road type
> engine.
>
> Chris
>
>
> "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:vo3oigj7eh5k07@corp.supernews.com...
> > What you are forgetting about is the high torque at low speed is exactly
> > what you want when offroading, high torque at high speed is what you
want
> on
> > the freeway. If the torque comes in at low speeds, then it will be all
> used
> > up at high speeds, and the ability to accellerate when you are already
> doing
> > 70 just isn't there.
> >
> > In an engine that is primarily intended for highway travel, you want the
> > torque and hp to be delivered at high engine speeds. This will allow you
> to
> > pass other vehicles and climb long hills easily, maybe even speed up
while
> > doing it. In an engine that produces its torque at idle, there won't be
> any
> > more torque available at higher speeds. The result is that climbing long
> > hills may not allow accelleration, and simply maintaining the speed you
> had
> > at the bottom is all you can hope for when you get to the top. If you
come
> > up upon slower moving traffic, and have to slow down because the lane
next
> > to you is not empty, you might find that regaining the lost speed is
> > difficult. But, for the trouble at highway speeds, you can pull stumps
at
> > idle. If your engine is designed primarily for highway work, then using
it
> > in the low speed environment of offroading can be a real chore.
> >
> > So, I say again, which is better depends upon what you do more. The
> > discussion isn't "any given gear" it is first gear vs 5th gear. The V6
> > engine in the Liberty is primarily made for flying low to Grandma's
house,
> > so it will work much better on the freeway than the I6 in the TJ, but
not
> as
> > good as the I6 when the desire is to go very slow in 1st gear.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > news:b102b6e4.0310060611.17644956@posting.google.c om...
> > > I'm not sure I follow. In any given gear, isn't an engine going to
> > > give you more power at a higher RPM? Isn't that why the gas pedal is
> > > called the "accelerator"? No one ever says "Hey, I need more power,
> > > so let me take my foot off the gas pedal!" I don't know about you,
> > > but whenever I need more speed or more power, I mash down on the gas
> > > pedal to raise the RPMs....
> > >
> > >
> > > > I have a BMW with an I6 motor, and it revs to 7000 rpm, the I6 in my
> > Jeep is
> > > > screaming at 3500. The BMW will easily stall from a stop sign on a
> hill
> > but
> > > > it will cruise for hours at 100+ mph. The Jeep will pull stop signs
> out
> > of
> > > > the ground at idle, even on a hill, but it resists any attempt to go
> > faster
> > > > than about 70 or 75, and it prefers to cruise at speeds in the 65
> range.
> > > >
> > > > So, the I6/V6 question/debate must be refined to the specific V6 and
> I6
> > > > involved. In the case of the Jeep application (particularly the TJ),
> the
> > I6
> > > > is the preferred configuration for the reasons I told you about.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:b102b6e4.0310010603.6341e03b@posting.google.c om...
> > > > > Very informative. Thank you.
> > > > >
> > > > > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:<vnjv34cppj5q4d@corp.supernews.com>...
> > > > > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:b102b6e4.0309301057.40e84a07@posting.google.c om...
> > > > > > > What makes you think that the V6 is inferior to the I6? I
have
> > read
> > > > > > > up on the features of Vs versus Is, and both types seem to
have
> a
> > hard
> > > > > > > core of fans who insist they are better... but from what I as
a
> > layman
> > > > > > > have read, neither engine style has an absolute edge over the
> > other
> > > > > > > type.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The rule of thumb is that anything that makes a motor,
suspension,
> > > > anything,
> > > > > > better for highway use detracts from the function in an offroad
> > > > environment,
> > > > > > and vice versa. The V6 is a high revving motor that produces its
> > torque
> > > > and
> > > > > > horsepower numbers relatively high in the RPM range, the I6 will
> > produce
> > > > its
> > > > > > torque just above idle speeds.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Let me illustrate the point, would you rather idle over boulders
> and
> > > > stumps
> > > > > > while gently feathering the gas to keep from stalling, or would
> you
> > want
> > > > to
> > > > > > be holding the fuel supplier down so that the engine speed was
> > boosted
> > > > to
> > > > > > the point that control was compromised? I want the torque at
idle,
> > not
> > > > half
> > > > > > way up the scale.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Highway travel demands the torque to be well up on the RPM scale
> > because
> > > > > > that means there is a power reserve that one can tap to climb
> hills,
> > > > pass
> > > > > > semis, that sort of thing. But, in offhighway travel, one
prefers
> > the
> > > > torque
> > > > > > and hp to come in at very low speeds.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you purpose to buy a Jeep was to drive cross country on the
> > freeway
> > > > to
> > > > > > get to Grandma's house, you want the V6. But, if you are wanting
> to
> > go
> > > > trail
> > > > > > riding, stump jumping, and rock crawling, then the V6 is the
last
> > motor
> > > > you
> > > > > > will want.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That said, I am sure that Bill will tell us about the old 225 ci
> V6.
> > > > This is
> > > > > > a different beast than today's fuel injected high revving V6's.
> That
> > old
> > > > > > motor was among the most desireable off road motors to ever
comme
> > off
> > > > the
> > > > > > line.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That 3.7L is a V6. The4.0L I6 is what will probably be on it
> > because
> > > > that is
> > > > > > > > the engine that comes on the other TJ models. At least I
hope
> > the V6
> > > > is
> > > > not
> > > > > > > > one of the engine options.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> >
>
>
learned a great deal from it, especially a far deeper understanding of why
an inline six is generally thought of as a better low-end torque motor than
a V6 is. Thanks, that was an extremely well-written, and informative post
with just the right amount of detail to back it up!
Jerry
--
Jerry Bransford
To email, remove 'me' from my email address
KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
See the Geezer Jeep at
http://members.***.net/jerrypb/
"c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
news:s_Igb.22945$832.12007@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> The fact that an engine is an inline or V design has very little to do
with
> its power band, but it is a factor. The biggest factors in determining the
> RPM where peak torque occurs is the design of the induction and exhaust
> systems. Probably the main factor of an inline engine that causes it to
have
> more low RPM torque than a V design is the fact that the intake runners
are
> usually much longer on the inline engine purely by design. One other
factor
> that will make an inline engine seem to have more torque is the fact that
> the weight of the crankshaft and connecting rods will create more inertia.
> This is great for low RPM use because the engine will not bog as easily.
The
> drawback for high RPM use is that the same inertia will resist fast RPM
> increases in instances such as passing. also, most V design engines have a
> shorter stroke than an inline engine of the same displacement. This also
> means that the inline engine will have smaller piston bores, which means
> smaller valves, which "usually" means more low RPM torque. An engine's
peak
> torque occurs at the highest RPM that it can completely fill the cylinders
> (100% volumetric efficiency). Some of these guys that are racing the rice
> burners like the Toyota inline 6, are spinning them at ungodly high RPM,
but
> these engines have 4 valves per cylinder, small stroke/big bore/long
> connecting rod design, and some very exotic induction and exhaust systems.
> OTOH, there are V6 engines used in cruising boats that basically idle
along
> all the time and have a max recommended RPM of about 4000. there are also
> 500 cubic inch V8 racing engines out there that don't make a bit of torque
> until 5 or 6000 RPM, such as in Pro Stock drag racing. These engines are
> revved to about 9000 RPM during a quarter mile race. there again, these
> engines have absolutely huge ports, cams, and carbs. Granted, some engines
> are not suited to low RPM use because there just isn't a good mix of parts
> to make them run like they should, but most of the common engines like the
> Dodge 318/360, Chevy 350, and Ford 302/351 have many good parts available
> for making a very torquey low RPM engine. The Jeep 4.0 and the AMC/Jeep
258
> are a good place to start because they were made to run at lower RPM and
> don't require much, if anything to make a good powerful off road type
> engine.
>
> Chris
>
>
> "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:vo3oigj7eh5k07@corp.supernews.com...
> > What you are forgetting about is the high torque at low speed is exactly
> > what you want when offroading, high torque at high speed is what you
want
> on
> > the freeway. If the torque comes in at low speeds, then it will be all
> used
> > up at high speeds, and the ability to accellerate when you are already
> doing
> > 70 just isn't there.
> >
> > In an engine that is primarily intended for highway travel, you want the
> > torque and hp to be delivered at high engine speeds. This will allow you
> to
> > pass other vehicles and climb long hills easily, maybe even speed up
while
> > doing it. In an engine that produces its torque at idle, there won't be
> any
> > more torque available at higher speeds. The result is that climbing long
> > hills may not allow accelleration, and simply maintaining the speed you
> had
> > at the bottom is all you can hope for when you get to the top. If you
come
> > up upon slower moving traffic, and have to slow down because the lane
next
> > to you is not empty, you might find that regaining the lost speed is
> > difficult. But, for the trouble at highway speeds, you can pull stumps
at
> > idle. If your engine is designed primarily for highway work, then using
it
> > in the low speed environment of offroading can be a real chore.
> >
> > So, I say again, which is better depends upon what you do more. The
> > discussion isn't "any given gear" it is first gear vs 5th gear. The V6
> > engine in the Liberty is primarily made for flying low to Grandma's
house,
> > so it will work much better on the freeway than the I6 in the TJ, but
not
> as
> > good as the I6 when the desire is to go very slow in 1st gear.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > news:b102b6e4.0310060611.17644956@posting.google.c om...
> > > I'm not sure I follow. In any given gear, isn't an engine going to
> > > give you more power at a higher RPM? Isn't that why the gas pedal is
> > > called the "accelerator"? No one ever says "Hey, I need more power,
> > > so let me take my foot off the gas pedal!" I don't know about you,
> > > but whenever I need more speed or more power, I mash down on the gas
> > > pedal to raise the RPMs....
> > >
> > >
> > > > I have a BMW with an I6 motor, and it revs to 7000 rpm, the I6 in my
> > Jeep is
> > > > screaming at 3500. The BMW will easily stall from a stop sign on a
> hill
> > but
> > > > it will cruise for hours at 100+ mph. The Jeep will pull stop signs
> out
> > of
> > > > the ground at idle, even on a hill, but it resists any attempt to go
> > faster
> > > > than about 70 or 75, and it prefers to cruise at speeds in the 65
> range.
> > > >
> > > > So, the I6/V6 question/debate must be refined to the specific V6 and
> I6
> > > > involved. In the case of the Jeep application (particularly the TJ),
> the
> > I6
> > > > is the preferred configuration for the reasons I told you about.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:b102b6e4.0310010603.6341e03b@posting.google.c om...
> > > > > Very informative. Thank you.
> > > > >
> > > > > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:<vnjv34cppj5q4d@corp.supernews.com>...
> > > > > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:b102b6e4.0309301057.40e84a07@posting.google.c om...
> > > > > > > What makes you think that the V6 is inferior to the I6? I
have
> > read
> > > > > > > up on the features of Vs versus Is, and both types seem to
have
> a
> > hard
> > > > > > > core of fans who insist they are better... but from what I as
a
> > layman
> > > > > > > have read, neither engine style has an absolute edge over the
> > other
> > > > > > > type.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The rule of thumb is that anything that makes a motor,
suspension,
> > > > anything,
> > > > > > better for highway use detracts from the function in an offroad
> > > > environment,
> > > > > > and vice versa. The V6 is a high revving motor that produces its
> > torque
> > > > and
> > > > > > horsepower numbers relatively high in the RPM range, the I6 will
> > produce
> > > > its
> > > > > > torque just above idle speeds.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Let me illustrate the point, would you rather idle over boulders
> and
> > > > stumps
> > > > > > while gently feathering the gas to keep from stalling, or would
> you
> > want
> > > > to
> > > > > > be holding the fuel supplier down so that the engine speed was
> > boosted
> > > > to
> > > > > > the point that control was compromised? I want the torque at
idle,
> > not
> > > > half
> > > > > > way up the scale.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Highway travel demands the torque to be well up on the RPM scale
> > because
> > > > > > that means there is a power reserve that one can tap to climb
> hills,
> > > > pass
> > > > > > semis, that sort of thing. But, in offhighway travel, one
prefers
> > the
> > > > torque
> > > > > > and hp to come in at very low speeds.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you purpose to buy a Jeep was to drive cross country on the
> > freeway
> > > > to
> > > > > > get to Grandma's house, you want the V6. But, if you are wanting
> to
> > go
> > > > trail
> > > > > > riding, stump jumping, and rock crawling, then the V6 is the
last
> > motor
> > > > you
> > > > > > will want.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That said, I am sure that Bill will tell us about the old 225 ci
> V6.
> > > > This is
> > > > > > a different beast than today's fuel injected high revving V6's.
> That
> > old
> > > > > > motor was among the most desireable off road motors to ever
comme
> > off
> > > > the
> > > > > > line.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That 3.7L is a V6. The4.0L I6 is what will probably be on it
> > because
> > > > that is
> > > > > > > > the engine that comes on the other TJ models. At least I
hope
> > the V6
> > > > is
> > > > not
> > > > > > > > one of the engine options.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> >
>
>
#59
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: More New Scrambler Details
Wow Chris, that was an insanely great post with great information. I
learned a great deal from it, especially a far deeper understanding of why
an inline six is generally thought of as a better low-end torque motor than
a V6 is. Thanks, that was an extremely well-written, and informative post
with just the right amount of detail to back it up!
Jerry
--
Jerry Bransford
To email, remove 'me' from my email address
KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
See the Geezer Jeep at
http://members.***.net/jerrypb/
"c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
news:s_Igb.22945$832.12007@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> The fact that an engine is an inline or V design has very little to do
with
> its power band, but it is a factor. The biggest factors in determining the
> RPM where peak torque occurs is the design of the induction and exhaust
> systems. Probably the main factor of an inline engine that causes it to
have
> more low RPM torque than a V design is the fact that the intake runners
are
> usually much longer on the inline engine purely by design. One other
factor
> that will make an inline engine seem to have more torque is the fact that
> the weight of the crankshaft and connecting rods will create more inertia.
> This is great for low RPM use because the engine will not bog as easily.
The
> drawback for high RPM use is that the same inertia will resist fast RPM
> increases in instances such as passing. also, most V design engines have a
> shorter stroke than an inline engine of the same displacement. This also
> means that the inline engine will have smaller piston bores, which means
> smaller valves, which "usually" means more low RPM torque. An engine's
peak
> torque occurs at the highest RPM that it can completely fill the cylinders
> (100% volumetric efficiency). Some of these guys that are racing the rice
> burners like the Toyota inline 6, are spinning them at ungodly high RPM,
but
> these engines have 4 valves per cylinder, small stroke/big bore/long
> connecting rod design, and some very exotic induction and exhaust systems.
> OTOH, there are V6 engines used in cruising boats that basically idle
along
> all the time and have a max recommended RPM of about 4000. there are also
> 500 cubic inch V8 racing engines out there that don't make a bit of torque
> until 5 or 6000 RPM, such as in Pro Stock drag racing. These engines are
> revved to about 9000 RPM during a quarter mile race. there again, these
> engines have absolutely huge ports, cams, and carbs. Granted, some engines
> are not suited to low RPM use because there just isn't a good mix of parts
> to make them run like they should, but most of the common engines like the
> Dodge 318/360, Chevy 350, and Ford 302/351 have many good parts available
> for making a very torquey low RPM engine. The Jeep 4.0 and the AMC/Jeep
258
> are a good place to start because they were made to run at lower RPM and
> don't require much, if anything to make a good powerful off road type
> engine.
>
> Chris
>
>
> "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:vo3oigj7eh5k07@corp.supernews.com...
> > What you are forgetting about is the high torque at low speed is exactly
> > what you want when offroading, high torque at high speed is what you
want
> on
> > the freeway. If the torque comes in at low speeds, then it will be all
> used
> > up at high speeds, and the ability to accellerate when you are already
> doing
> > 70 just isn't there.
> >
> > In an engine that is primarily intended for highway travel, you want the
> > torque and hp to be delivered at high engine speeds. This will allow you
> to
> > pass other vehicles and climb long hills easily, maybe even speed up
while
> > doing it. In an engine that produces its torque at idle, there won't be
> any
> > more torque available at higher speeds. The result is that climbing long
> > hills may not allow accelleration, and simply maintaining the speed you
> had
> > at the bottom is all you can hope for when you get to the top. If you
come
> > up upon slower moving traffic, and have to slow down because the lane
next
> > to you is not empty, you might find that regaining the lost speed is
> > difficult. But, for the trouble at highway speeds, you can pull stumps
at
> > idle. If your engine is designed primarily for highway work, then using
it
> > in the low speed environment of offroading can be a real chore.
> >
> > So, I say again, which is better depends upon what you do more. The
> > discussion isn't "any given gear" it is first gear vs 5th gear. The V6
> > engine in the Liberty is primarily made for flying low to Grandma's
house,
> > so it will work much better on the freeway than the I6 in the TJ, but
not
> as
> > good as the I6 when the desire is to go very slow in 1st gear.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > news:b102b6e4.0310060611.17644956@posting.google.c om...
> > > I'm not sure I follow. In any given gear, isn't an engine going to
> > > give you more power at a higher RPM? Isn't that why the gas pedal is
> > > called the "accelerator"? No one ever says "Hey, I need more power,
> > > so let me take my foot off the gas pedal!" I don't know about you,
> > > but whenever I need more speed or more power, I mash down on the gas
> > > pedal to raise the RPMs....
> > >
> > >
> > > > I have a BMW with an I6 motor, and it revs to 7000 rpm, the I6 in my
> > Jeep is
> > > > screaming at 3500. The BMW will easily stall from a stop sign on a
> hill
> > but
> > > > it will cruise for hours at 100+ mph. The Jeep will pull stop signs
> out
> > of
> > > > the ground at idle, even on a hill, but it resists any attempt to go
> > faster
> > > > than about 70 or 75, and it prefers to cruise at speeds in the 65
> range.
> > > >
> > > > So, the I6/V6 question/debate must be refined to the specific V6 and
> I6
> > > > involved. In the case of the Jeep application (particularly the TJ),
> the
> > I6
> > > > is the preferred configuration for the reasons I told you about.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:b102b6e4.0310010603.6341e03b@posting.google.c om...
> > > > > Very informative. Thank you.
> > > > >
> > > > > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:<vnjv34cppj5q4d@corp.supernews.com>...
> > > > > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:b102b6e4.0309301057.40e84a07@posting.google.c om...
> > > > > > > What makes you think that the V6 is inferior to the I6? I
have
> > read
> > > > > > > up on the features of Vs versus Is, and both types seem to
have
> a
> > hard
> > > > > > > core of fans who insist they are better... but from what I as
a
> > layman
> > > > > > > have read, neither engine style has an absolute edge over the
> > other
> > > > > > > type.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The rule of thumb is that anything that makes a motor,
suspension,
> > > > anything,
> > > > > > better for highway use detracts from the function in an offroad
> > > > environment,
> > > > > > and vice versa. The V6 is a high revving motor that produces its
> > torque
> > > > and
> > > > > > horsepower numbers relatively high in the RPM range, the I6 will
> > produce
> > > > its
> > > > > > torque just above idle speeds.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Let me illustrate the point, would you rather idle over boulders
> and
> > > > stumps
> > > > > > while gently feathering the gas to keep from stalling, or would
> you
> > want
> > > > to
> > > > > > be holding the fuel supplier down so that the engine speed was
> > boosted
> > > > to
> > > > > > the point that control was compromised? I want the torque at
idle,
> > not
> > > > half
> > > > > > way up the scale.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Highway travel demands the torque to be well up on the RPM scale
> > because
> > > > > > that means there is a power reserve that one can tap to climb
> hills,
> > > > pass
> > > > > > semis, that sort of thing. But, in offhighway travel, one
prefers
> > the
> > > > torque
> > > > > > and hp to come in at very low speeds.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you purpose to buy a Jeep was to drive cross country on the
> > freeway
> > > > to
> > > > > > get to Grandma's house, you want the V6. But, if you are wanting
> to
> > go
> > > > trail
> > > > > > riding, stump jumping, and rock crawling, then the V6 is the
last
> > motor
> > > > you
> > > > > > will want.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That said, I am sure that Bill will tell us about the old 225 ci
> V6.
> > > > This is
> > > > > > a different beast than today's fuel injected high revving V6's.
> That
> > old
> > > > > > motor was among the most desireable off road motors to ever
comme
> > off
> > > > the
> > > > > > line.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That 3.7L is a V6. The4.0L I6 is what will probably be on it
> > because
> > > > that is
> > > > > > > > the engine that comes on the other TJ models. At least I
hope
> > the V6
> > > > is
> > > > not
> > > > > > > > one of the engine options.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> >
>
>
learned a great deal from it, especially a far deeper understanding of why
an inline six is generally thought of as a better low-end torque motor than
a V6 is. Thanks, that was an extremely well-written, and informative post
with just the right amount of detail to back it up!
Jerry
--
Jerry Bransford
To email, remove 'me' from my email address
KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
See the Geezer Jeep at
http://members.***.net/jerrypb/
"c" <c@me.org> wrote in message
news:s_Igb.22945$832.12007@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> The fact that an engine is an inline or V design has very little to do
with
> its power band, but it is a factor. The biggest factors in determining the
> RPM where peak torque occurs is the design of the induction and exhaust
> systems. Probably the main factor of an inline engine that causes it to
have
> more low RPM torque than a V design is the fact that the intake runners
are
> usually much longer on the inline engine purely by design. One other
factor
> that will make an inline engine seem to have more torque is the fact that
> the weight of the crankshaft and connecting rods will create more inertia.
> This is great for low RPM use because the engine will not bog as easily.
The
> drawback for high RPM use is that the same inertia will resist fast RPM
> increases in instances such as passing. also, most V design engines have a
> shorter stroke than an inline engine of the same displacement. This also
> means that the inline engine will have smaller piston bores, which means
> smaller valves, which "usually" means more low RPM torque. An engine's
peak
> torque occurs at the highest RPM that it can completely fill the cylinders
> (100% volumetric efficiency). Some of these guys that are racing the rice
> burners like the Toyota inline 6, are spinning them at ungodly high RPM,
but
> these engines have 4 valves per cylinder, small stroke/big bore/long
> connecting rod design, and some very exotic induction and exhaust systems.
> OTOH, there are V6 engines used in cruising boats that basically idle
along
> all the time and have a max recommended RPM of about 4000. there are also
> 500 cubic inch V8 racing engines out there that don't make a bit of torque
> until 5 or 6000 RPM, such as in Pro Stock drag racing. These engines are
> revved to about 9000 RPM during a quarter mile race. there again, these
> engines have absolutely huge ports, cams, and carbs. Granted, some engines
> are not suited to low RPM use because there just isn't a good mix of parts
> to make them run like they should, but most of the common engines like the
> Dodge 318/360, Chevy 350, and Ford 302/351 have many good parts available
> for making a very torquey low RPM engine. The Jeep 4.0 and the AMC/Jeep
258
> are a good place to start because they were made to run at lower RPM and
> don't require much, if anything to make a good powerful off road type
> engine.
>
> Chris
>
>
> "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:vo3oigj7eh5k07@corp.supernews.com...
> > What you are forgetting about is the high torque at low speed is exactly
> > what you want when offroading, high torque at high speed is what you
want
> on
> > the freeway. If the torque comes in at low speeds, then it will be all
> used
> > up at high speeds, and the ability to accellerate when you are already
> doing
> > 70 just isn't there.
> >
> > In an engine that is primarily intended for highway travel, you want the
> > torque and hp to be delivered at high engine speeds. This will allow you
> to
> > pass other vehicles and climb long hills easily, maybe even speed up
while
> > doing it. In an engine that produces its torque at idle, there won't be
> any
> > more torque available at higher speeds. The result is that climbing long
> > hills may not allow accelleration, and simply maintaining the speed you
> had
> > at the bottom is all you can hope for when you get to the top. If you
come
> > up upon slower moving traffic, and have to slow down because the lane
next
> > to you is not empty, you might find that regaining the lost speed is
> > difficult. But, for the trouble at highway speeds, you can pull stumps
at
> > idle. If your engine is designed primarily for highway work, then using
it
> > in the low speed environment of offroading can be a real chore.
> >
> > So, I say again, which is better depends upon what you do more. The
> > discussion isn't "any given gear" it is first gear vs 5th gear. The V6
> > engine in the Liberty is primarily made for flying low to Grandma's
house,
> > so it will work much better on the freeway than the I6 in the TJ, but
not
> as
> > good as the I6 when the desire is to go very slow in 1st gear.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > news:b102b6e4.0310060611.17644956@posting.google.c om...
> > > I'm not sure I follow. In any given gear, isn't an engine going to
> > > give you more power at a higher RPM? Isn't that why the gas pedal is
> > > called the "accelerator"? No one ever says "Hey, I need more power,
> > > so let me take my foot off the gas pedal!" I don't know about you,
> > > but whenever I need more speed or more power, I mash down on the gas
> > > pedal to raise the RPMs....
> > >
> > >
> > > > I have a BMW with an I6 motor, and it revs to 7000 rpm, the I6 in my
> > Jeep is
> > > > screaming at 3500. The BMW will easily stall from a stop sign on a
> hill
> > but
> > > > it will cruise for hours at 100+ mph. The Jeep will pull stop signs
> out
> > of
> > > > the ground at idle, even on a hill, but it resists any attempt to go
> > faster
> > > > than about 70 or 75, and it prefers to cruise at speeds in the 65
> range.
> > > >
> > > > So, the I6/V6 question/debate must be refined to the specific V6 and
> I6
> > > > involved. In the case of the Jeep application (particularly the TJ),
> the
> > I6
> > > > is the preferred configuration for the reasons I told you about.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:b102b6e4.0310010603.6341e03b@posting.google.c om...
> > > > > Very informative. Thank you.
> > > > >
> > > > > "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:<vnjv34cppj5q4d@corp.supernews.com>...
> > > > > > "Joshua Nelson" <spam_box@ev1.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:b102b6e4.0309301057.40e84a07@posting.google.c om...
> > > > > > > What makes you think that the V6 is inferior to the I6? I
have
> > read
> > > > > > > up on the features of Vs versus Is, and both types seem to
have
> a
> > hard
> > > > > > > core of fans who insist they are better... but from what I as
a
> > layman
> > > > > > > have read, neither engine style has an absolute edge over the
> > other
> > > > > > > type.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The rule of thumb is that anything that makes a motor,
suspension,
> > > > anything,
> > > > > > better for highway use detracts from the function in an offroad
> > > > environment,
> > > > > > and vice versa. The V6 is a high revving motor that produces its
> > torque
> > > > and
> > > > > > horsepower numbers relatively high in the RPM range, the I6 will
> > produce
> > > > its
> > > > > > torque just above idle speeds.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Let me illustrate the point, would you rather idle over boulders
> and
> > > > stumps
> > > > > > while gently feathering the gas to keep from stalling, or would
> you
> > want
> > > > to
> > > > > > be holding the fuel supplier down so that the engine speed was
> > boosted
> > > > to
> > > > > > the point that control was compromised? I want the torque at
idle,
> > not
> > > > half
> > > > > > way up the scale.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Highway travel demands the torque to be well up on the RPM scale
> > because
> > > > > > that means there is a power reserve that one can tap to climb
> hills,
> > > > pass
> > > > > > semis, that sort of thing. But, in offhighway travel, one
prefers
> > the
> > > > torque
> > > > > > and hp to come in at very low speeds.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you purpose to buy a Jeep was to drive cross country on the
> > freeway
> > > > to
> > > > > > get to Grandma's house, you want the V6. But, if you are wanting
> to
> > go
> > > > trail
> > > > > > riding, stump jumping, and rock crawling, then the V6 is the
last
> > motor
> > > > you
> > > > > > will want.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That said, I am sure that Bill will tell us about the old 225 ci
> V6.
> > > > This is
> > > > > > a different beast than today's fuel injected high revving V6's.
> That
> > old
> > > > > > motor was among the most desireable off road motors to ever
comme
> > off
> > > > the
> > > > > > line.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That 3.7L is a V6. The4.0L I6 is what will probably be on it
> > because
> > > > that is
> > > > > > > > the engine that comes on the other TJ models. At least I
hope
> > the V6
> > > > is
> > > > not
> > > > > > > > one of the engine options.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> >
>
>
#60
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: More New Scrambler Details
Amen.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
>
> "There's No Replacement For Displacement."
> * * *
> Matt Macchiarolo
> www.townpeddler.com
> www.wolverine4wd.org
> http://wolverine4wd.org/rigs/macchiarolo_ml.html
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
Matt Macchiarolo wrote:
>
> "There's No Replacement For Displacement."
> * * *
> Matt Macchiarolo
> www.townpeddler.com
> www.wolverine4wd.org
> http://wolverine4wd.org/rigs/macchiarolo_ml.html