"Dan J.S." wrote:
>
> "C. E. White" <cewhite3@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:3FC23431.32057E0D@mindspring.com...
> >
> >
> > "Dan J.S." wrote:
> >
> > > Look at jdpower.com - facts do not lie. 2002 Jeep Wrangler, 2 out of 5
> stars
> > > for mechanical quality. 2 out of 5 for mechanical reliability. These
> numbers
> > > do not lie. Jeep is a great name, Chryco managed to turn it into crap. I
> > > used to be a jeep fan, until a jeep left me stranded once too many
> times.
> >
> > How do you explain that Buicks show up as nuch more reliable than Pontiacs
> or
> > Oldsmobiles? These different brands are built by the same poeple in the
> same
> > factories using mostly the same parts, but they have different reliability
> > ratings.
> >
> > In my opinion, the JD Powers surveys are more a measure of the success of
> the
> > advertising campaign than of the performance of the vehicles. For example
> if you
> > comapare a 4Runner, Explorer, and Mountaineer, the Explorer is rated lower
> than
> > the 4Runner in a couple of categories. However, the Mountaineer is rated
> nearly
> > the same as a 4Runner - how can that be? The Explorer and Moutaineer are
> for all
> > practical purposes the same vehicle. A Mountaineer is not any more
> reliable than
> > an Explorer, yet it was rated the same as the 4Runner and above the
> Explorer.
> > Clearly the JD Power ratings are nearly meaningless.
> >
> > Ed
> >
>
> Buicks and Lincolns are all premium brands, and there is an extra layer of
> QC when putting them together. It's like comparing Toyota and the Lexus
> line. Look at how many buicks are put out in 24 men hours and how many
> pontiacs. Right now, the average is something like 1.5 pontiacs per 24 hours
> vs 1 buick in the same 24 hour period. What I mean is it takes 24 hours to
> build one buick and something like 12-14 hours to build one pontiac (all men
> hours, actual times are obviously less). It's very similar to Ford and the
> Lincoln brands. I am getting these stats from April 2003 AutoWeek magazine.

Several models are built at the same time in the same factory by the
same people. All the parts are virtually the same (engines,
transmissions, suspension). For instance, the Orion Assembly Plant
builds Pontiac Bonnevilles, Buick LaSabres, Buick Park Avenues, and
Oldsmobile Aurora concurrently. There is no way they are spending 50%
more time on the Buicks than on the Pontiacs at that factory. I suppose
it you averaged all Pontiac models together and all Buick models
together the Buick models might take more time on average, but I do not
believe that the difference exists for models built on the same assembly
line. If you go to JD Powers site and compare the 2001 Bonneville, Park
Avenue and Aurora, you will see that the results are all over the place.
If this was a true gauge of reliability, they should be almost
identical. But in some categories one car is a 5, another a 3, and the
third a 2. This just illustrates how faulty this particular survey
methodology is. So claiming that a Toyota is better because of this
survey is silly.

Regards,

Ed White

 

"Dan J.S." wrote:
>
> "C. E. White" <cewhite3@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:3FC23431.32057E0D@mindspring.com...
> >
> >
> > "Dan J.S." wrote:
> >
> > > Look at jdpower.com - facts do not lie. 2002 Jeep Wrangler, 2 out of 5
> stars
> > > for mechanical quality. 2 out of 5 for mechanical reliability. These
> numbers
> > > do not lie. Jeep is a great name, Chryco managed to turn it into crap. I
> > > used to be a jeep fan, until a jeep left me stranded once too many
> times.
> >
> > How do you explain that Buicks show up as nuch more reliable than Pontiacs
> or
> > Oldsmobiles? These different brands are built by the same poeple in the
> same
> > factories using mostly the same parts, but they have different reliability
> > ratings.
> >
> > In my opinion, the JD Powers surveys are more a measure of the success of
> the
> > advertising campaign than of the performance of the vehicles. For example
> if you
> > comapare a 4Runner, Explorer, and Mountaineer, the Explorer is rated lower
> than
> > the 4Runner in a couple of categories. However, the Mountaineer is rated
> nearly
> > the same as a 4Runner - how can that be? The Explorer and Moutaineer are
> for all
> > practical purposes the same vehicle. A Mountaineer is not any more
> reliable than
> > an Explorer, yet it was rated the same as the 4Runner and above the
> Explorer.
> > Clearly the JD Power ratings are nearly meaningless.
> >
> > Ed
> >
>
> Buicks and Lincolns are all premium brands, and there is an extra layer of
> QC when putting them together. It's like comparing Toyota and the Lexus
> line. Look at how many buicks are put out in 24 men hours and how many
> pontiacs. Right now, the average is something like 1.5 pontiacs per 24 hours
> vs 1 buick in the same 24 hour period. What I mean is it takes 24 hours to
> build one buick and something like 12-14 hours to build one pontiac (all men
> hours, actual times are obviously less). It's very similar to Ford and the
> Lincoln brands. I am getting these stats from April 2003 AutoWeek magazine.

Several models are built at the same time in the same factory by the
same people. All the parts are virtually the same (engines,
transmissions, suspension). For instance, the Orion Assembly Plant
builds Pontiac Bonnevilles, Buick LaSabres, Buick Park Avenues, and
Oldsmobile Aurora concurrently. There is no way they are spending 50%
more time on the Buicks than on the Pontiacs at that factory. I suppose
it you averaged all Pontiac models together and all Buick models
together the Buick models might take more time on average, but I do not
believe that the difference exists for models built on the same assembly
line. If you go to JD Powers site and compare the 2001 Bonneville, Park
Avenue and Aurora, you will see that the results are all over the place.
If this was a true gauge of reliability, they should be almost
identical. But in some categories one car is a 5, another a 3, and the
third a 2. This just illustrates how faulty this particular survey
methodology is. So claiming that a Toyota is better because of this
survey is silly.

Regards,

Ed White

 

C. E. White did pass the time by typing:

> I have never driven any car 500,000 miles and find it hard to believe
> that a 4Runner has been driven that many miles. However I did once try
> to get a Toyota to 80,000 miles. It was a miserable expensive disaster.
> Oh what a feeling. My SO did manage to get a Camry over 300,000 miles,
> but it was a rolling pieces of oil spewing junk when she replaced it.

A coworkers Honda Civic just passed the 400,000 mile mark, but that
car does look like a rolling rustbucket. He's waiting for one of
those push-pull-drag tradein days.

My old C-10 chevy had 200,000 miles before I sold it in 93 and even then
it only had minor rust in the cab corners. The Jeep ZJ has 109,000 on it.

High milage isn't impossible if the owner takes proper care of the
vehicle. Regular maintenance, keeping the dirt from blocking drains,
staying away from crazy drivers, and living outside the rust-belt helps.

--
-- DougW -- 93 ZJ 4.0 http://members.***.net/wilsond
HESCO Supercharger - 300W IASCA Stereo - Edelbrock IAS Shocks
Gibson Exhaust - rear DCpower - custom gauge install - Stillen Rotors

 

C. E. White did pass the time by typing:

> I have never driven any car 500,000 miles and find it hard to believe
> that a 4Runner has been driven that many miles. However I did once try
> to get a Toyota to 80,000 miles. It was a miserable expensive disaster.
> Oh what a feeling. My SO did manage to get a Camry over 300,000 miles,
> but it was a rolling pieces of oil spewing junk when she replaced it.

A coworkers Honda Civic just passed the 400,000 mile mark, but that
car does look like a rolling rustbucket. He's waiting for one of
those push-pull-drag tradein days.

My old C-10 chevy had 200,000 miles before I sold it in 93 and even then
it only had minor rust in the cab corners. The Jeep ZJ has 109,000 on it.

High milage isn't impossible if the owner takes proper care of the
vehicle. Regular maintenance, keeping the dirt from blocking drains,
staying away from crazy drivers, and living outside the rust-belt helps.

--
-- DougW -- 93 ZJ 4.0 http://members.***.net/wilsond
HESCO Supercharger - 300W IASCA Stereo - Edelbrock IAS Shocks
Gibson Exhaust - rear DCpower - custom gauge install - Stillen Rotors

 

C. E. White did pass the time by typing:

> I have never driven any car 500,000 miles and find it hard to believe
> that a 4Runner has been driven that many miles. However I did once try
> to get a Toyota to 80,000 miles. It was a miserable expensive disaster.
> Oh what a feeling. My SO did manage to get a Camry over 300,000 miles,
> but it was a rolling pieces of oil spewing junk when she replaced it.

A coworkers Honda Civic just passed the 400,000 mile mark, but that
car does look like a rolling rustbucket. He's waiting for one of
those push-pull-drag tradein days.

My old C-10 chevy had 200,000 miles before I sold it in 93 and even then
it only had minor rust in the cab corners. The Jeep ZJ has 109,000 on it.

High milage isn't impossible if the owner takes proper care of the
vehicle. Regular maintenance, keeping the dirt from blocking drains,
staying away from crazy drivers, and living outside the rust-belt helps.

--
-- DougW -- 93 ZJ 4.0 http://members.***.net/wilsond
HESCO Supercharger - 300W IASCA Stereo - Edelbrock IAS Shocks
Gibson Exhaust - rear DCpower - custom gauge install - Stillen Rotors

 

"C. E. White" <cewhite3@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3F723791.9D668F22@mindspring.com...
> I have never driven any car 500,000 miles and find it hard to believe
> that a 4Runner has been driven that many miles.

i had an 86 4 runner that i took past 400,000 miles (in commercial usage,
many times loaded way beyond capacity) before selling it on the original
internals. i went through many alternators, water pumps, and starters but
thats it. i removed the valve cover to adjust the valves but beyond that,
no wrenches ever touched the engine. the 22r/re is an amazing engine.

--
Nathan W. Collier
http://7SlotGrille.com
http://UtilityOffRoad.com

 

"C. E. White" <cewhite3@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3F723791.9D668F22@mindspring.com...
> I have never driven any car 500,000 miles and find it hard to believe
> that a 4Runner has been driven that many miles.

i had an 86 4 runner that i took past 400,000 miles (in commercial usage,
many times loaded way beyond capacity) before selling it on the original
internals. i went through many alternators, water pumps, and starters but
thats it. i removed the valve cover to adjust the valves but beyond that,
no wrenches ever touched the engine. the 22r/re is an amazing engine.

--
Nathan W. Collier
http://7SlotGrille.com
http://UtilityOffRoad.com

 

"C. E. White" <cewhite3@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3F723791.9D668F22@mindspring.com...
> I have never driven any car 500,000 miles and find it hard to believe
> that a 4Runner has been driven that many miles.

i had an 86 4 runner that i took past 400,000 miles (in commercial usage,
many times loaded way beyond capacity) before selling it on the original
internals. i went through many alternators, water pumps, and starters but
thats it. i removed the valve cover to adjust the valves but beyond that,
no wrenches ever touched the engine. the 22r/re is an amazing engine.

--
Nathan W. Collier
http://7SlotGrille.com
http://UtilityOffRoad.com

 

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 02:57:58 UTC jcwelch@hal-pc.org (John Welch)
wrote:

> Now on the other hand, fording the creek to get into the east pasture
> is a decent chalenge and a fair place to do a head to head comparison.
> It is 12+ feet deep, a mix of loose sand, mud, and big ruts that you
> have to pick the right line through to keep from high centering. It
> is just down and up, but it is a good place to make girls squeal. I
> drive both the liberty and the wrangler through there all the time to
> check on the cows. The liberty is a much more pleasant, secure ride.
> I think that it is all to do with the difference between selectrac on
> the Liberty as opposed to command trac on the Wrangler rather than ifs
> vs solid axel. I am sure it is not the Liberty's sun roof, but it
> might be the butt warmer.

12+ feet? That's a river, not a creek Where do you store the
snorkles? Oh, you mean the cut, not the water depth. My problem with
fording a ditch like that is usually the approach/depature angles
since I seem to hang the bumper on one end or the other so that's
gives the Wrangler a definte edge.

--
Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net>

 

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 02:57:58 UTC jcwelch@hal-pc.org (John Welch)
wrote:

> Now on the other hand, fording the creek to get into the east pasture
> is a decent chalenge and a fair place to do a head to head comparison.
> It is 12+ feet deep, a mix of loose sand, mud, and big ruts that you
> have to pick the right line through to keep from high centering. It
> is just down and up, but it is a good place to make girls squeal. I
> drive both the liberty and the wrangler through there all the time to
> check on the cows. The liberty is a much more pleasant, secure ride.
> I think that it is all to do with the difference between selectrac on
> the Liberty as opposed to command trac on the Wrangler rather than ifs
> vs solid axel. I am sure it is not the Liberty's sun roof, but it
> might be the butt warmer.

12+ feet? That's a river, not a creek Where do you store the
snorkles? Oh, you mean the cut, not the water depth. My problem with
fording a ditch like that is usually the approach/depature angles
since I seem to hang the bumper on one end or the other so that's
gives the Wrangler a definte edge.

--
Will Honea <whonea@codenet.net>