Lee Ayrton

Not that it has any bearing on your dispute with the dealer but
depending on the road surfaces that you drive on ABS might not be a
safety feature. ABS was derived from airliner technology and was
designed for braking in a straight forward direction on clean, wet
surfaces. On loose surfaces it will considerably lengthen your stopping
distance.

As for your dispute with the dealer (which, one hopes, is simply a
mistake on their part), is there some sort of consumer advocate office
in your neck of the woods? In some states in your Neighbor To The South
there are governmental offices that specifically deal with automobile
sales and repairs.

Peter wrote:
[snip]
> What do you propose to do about this? It is abolutely essential for me
> to have a vehicle with a full set of safety features including ABS, 4WD
> and airbags, not least because we have three small children who will be
> travelling in the vehicle, and my wife is meticulous about vehicle
[snip]

Lee Ayrton

Not that it has any bearing on your dispute with the dealer but
depending on the road surfaces that you drive on ABS might not be a
safety feature. ABS was derived from airliner technology and was
designed for braking in a straight forward direction on clean, wet
surfaces. On loose surfaces it will considerably lengthen your stopping
distance.

As for your dispute with the dealer (which, one hopes, is simply a
mistake on their part), is there some sort of consumer advocate office
in your neck of the woods? In some states in your Neighbor To The South
there are governmental offices that specifically deal with automobile
sales and repairs.

Peter wrote:
[snip]
> What do you propose to do about this? It is abolutely essential for me
> to have a vehicle with a full set of safety features including ABS, 4WD
> and airbags, not least because we have three small children who will be
> travelling in the vehicle, and my wife is meticulous about vehicle
[snip]

Mike Romain

They got their nickname as $tealerships 'honestly'.... LOL!

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Peter wrote:
>
> Good evening. Thank you all for your interest in, and help with, my
> ABS problem. Here is an exchange of correspondence which took place
> today with the dealer who sold me the vehicle. It's pretty self
> explanatory and as you can see, there is an ongoing situation here....
>
> Dear Mr Newfoundland Used Car Dealer (not his real name)
>
> Further to our recent exchange of e-mails about the problems I was
> having
> with my jeep's ABS, I have some news which is not welcome to either of
> us -
> it doesn't appear to have any ABS. I am still waiting for
> DaimlerChrysler
> Canada to send me the official build sheet for the vehicle, but from my
> examination of the electrical and braking systems, and comparing them
> with
> the relevant diagrams from the sections of the owners handbook and
> workshop
> manual which describe the ABS, I am 99% certain that this vehicle does
> not
> have, and has never had, ABS. You are of course welcome to examine it
> yourself to confirm that.
>
> Could I remind you that I bought it on the understanding that it did
> have
> ABS, and I still have the ****** Motors vehicle description which
> states
> that. If this is the case, it is a little surprising that your
> mechanic
> examined the (non-existent) ABS on 13 January and found it to be
> "operating
> normal" but maybe the less said about that the better.
>
> What do you propose to do about this? It is abolutely essential for me
> to
> have a vehicle with a full set of safety features including ABS, 4WD
> and
> airbags, not least because we have three small children who will be
> travelling in the vehicle, and my wife is meticulous about vehicle
> safety
> for the children. She is not going to be at all pleased about this, in
> fact, I am hoping to get this fixed before she finds out about it. As
> far
> as I can see there are two options:
>
> 1. Have ABS fitted to the vehicle at your expense. I am waiting to
> hear
> from DaimlerChrysler Canada to see if this is possible. It should be
> possible, although it may be expensive. As I am otherwise happy with
> the
> vehicle, this would probably be my preferred option.
>
> 2. A full refund of the purchase price and associated expenses, either
> in
> cash or set against the purchase of another Humber Motors vehicle which
> does
> have ABS and the other safety features I have mentioned. This should
> include:
>
> 19,540.50 Purchase price
> 885.50 Service contract
> 568.45 Fitting of four winter tires
> 159.95 Corrosion free treament
> 76.02 Winter maintenance service
> 200.00 Replacement of water pump
> 35.65 Examination of the ABS
>
> Needless to say, I am not very happy about this.
>
> Regards
>
> Peter
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Hello Peter
> I`ve spoke to the mechanic he advises that you stop in to the shop
> anytime
> between 8:00 a.m and 5:00 p.m so they can point out the components of
> ABS
> system
> regards **** *******
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> OK... but he'll have some difficulty if the components aren't there.
> Please
> see forwarded e-mail from DaimlerChrysler (which arrived this
> afternoon) who
> seem to think that ABS was not fitted to this vehicle at the time of
> manufacture. But I'll bring it in anyway - probably Friday afternoon.
>
> Regards, Peter.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dear ** ****:
>
> We have received your email of January 19, 2006 regarding your 2001
> Jeep
> Cherokee.
>
> We note that, at the time of manufacturing, your vehicle was equipped
> with Power Front Disc/Rear Drum Brakes. If you are seeking information
>
> on having ABS installed on your vehicle please contact your local
> DaimlerChrysler dealership (City Motors Chrysler # 709-637-1000) as
> they
> are equipped with any technical information.
>
> Further, with respect to obtaining a service manual, DaimlerChrysler
> Canada has recruited the services of an independent company to
> distribute owner

Mike Romain

They got their nickname as $tealerships 'honestly'.... LOL!

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Peter wrote:
>
> Good evening. Thank you all for your interest in, and help with, my
> ABS problem. Here is an exchange of correspondence which took place
> today with the dealer who sold me the vehicle. It's pretty self
> explanatory and as you can see, there is an ongoing situation here....
>
> Dear Mr Newfoundland Used Car Dealer (not his real name)
>
> Further to our recent exchange of e-mails about the problems I was
> having
> with my jeep's ABS, I have some news which is not welcome to either of
> us -
> it doesn't appear to have any ABS. I am still waiting for
> DaimlerChrysler
> Canada to send me the official build sheet for the vehicle, but from my
> examination of the electrical and braking systems, and comparing them
> with
> the relevant diagrams from the sections of the owners handbook and
> workshop
> manual which describe the ABS, I am 99% certain that this vehicle does
> not
> have, and has never had, ABS. You are of course welcome to examine it
> yourself to confirm that.
>
> Could I remind you that I bought it on the understanding that it did
> have
> ABS, and I still have the ****** Motors vehicle description which
> states
> that. If this is the case, it is a little surprising that your
> mechanic
> examined the (non-existent) ABS on 13 January and found it to be
> "operating
> normal" but maybe the less said about that the better.
>
> What do you propose to do about this? It is abolutely essential for me
> to
> have a vehicle with a full set of safety features including ABS, 4WD
> and
> airbags, not least because we have three small children who will be
> travelling in the vehicle, and my wife is meticulous about vehicle
> safety
> for the children. She is not going to be at all pleased about this, in
> fact, I am hoping to get this fixed before she finds out about it. As
> far
> as I can see there are two options:
>
> 1. Have ABS fitted to the vehicle at your expense. I am waiting to
> hear
> from DaimlerChrysler Canada to see if this is possible. It should be
> possible, although it may be expensive. As I am otherwise happy with
> the
> vehicle, this would probably be my preferred option.
>
> 2. A full refund of the purchase price and associated expenses, either
> in
> cash or set against the purchase of another Humber Motors vehicle which
> does
> have ABS and the other safety features I have mentioned. This should
> include:
>
> 19,540.50 Purchase price
> 885.50 Service contract
> 568.45 Fitting of four winter tires
> 159.95 Corrosion free treament
> 76.02 Winter maintenance service
> 200.00 Replacement of water pump
> 35.65 Examination of the ABS
>
> Needless to say, I am not very happy about this.
>
> Regards
>
> Peter
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Hello Peter
> I`ve spoke to the mechanic he advises that you stop in to the shop
> anytime
> between 8:00 a.m and 5:00 p.m so they can point out the components of
> ABS
> system
> regards **** *******
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> OK... but he'll have some difficulty if the components aren't there.
> Please
> see forwarded e-mail from DaimlerChrysler (which arrived this
> afternoon) who
> seem to think that ABS was not fitted to this vehicle at the time of
> manufacture. But I'll bring it in anyway - probably Friday afternoon.
>
> Regards, Peter.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dear ** ****:
>
> We have received your email of January 19, 2006 regarding your 2001
> Jeep
> Cherokee.
>
> We note that, at the time of manufacturing, your vehicle was equipped
> with Power Front Disc/Rear Drum Brakes. If you are seeking information
>
> on having ABS installed on your vehicle please contact your local
> DaimlerChrysler dealership (City Motors Chrysler # 709-637-1000) as
> they
> are equipped with any technical information.
>
> Further, with respect to obtaining a service manual, DaimlerChrysler
> Canada has recruited the services of an independent company to
> distribute owner

Mike Romain

They got their nickname as $tealerships 'honestly'.... LOL!

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Peter wrote:
>
> Good evening. Thank you all for your interest in, and help with, my
> ABS problem. Here is an exchange of correspondence which took place
> today with the dealer who sold me the vehicle. It's pretty self
> explanatory and as you can see, there is an ongoing situation here....
>
> Dear Mr Newfoundland Used Car Dealer (not his real name)
>
> Further to our recent exchange of e-mails about the problems I was
> having
> with my jeep's ABS, I have some news which is not welcome to either of
> us -
> it doesn't appear to have any ABS. I am still waiting for
> DaimlerChrysler
> Canada to send me the official build sheet for the vehicle, but from my
> examination of the electrical and braking systems, and comparing them
> with
> the relevant diagrams from the sections of the owners handbook and
> workshop
> manual which describe the ABS, I am 99% certain that this vehicle does
> not
> have, and has never had, ABS. You are of course welcome to examine it
> yourself to confirm that.
>
> Could I remind you that I bought it on the understanding that it did
> have
> ABS, and I still have the ****** Motors vehicle description which
> states
> that. If this is the case, it is a little surprising that your
> mechanic
> examined the (non-existent) ABS on 13 January and found it to be
> "operating
> normal" but maybe the less said about that the better.
>
> What do you propose to do about this? It is abolutely essential for me
> to
> have a vehicle with a full set of safety features including ABS, 4WD
> and
> airbags, not least because we have three small children who will be
> travelling in the vehicle, and my wife is meticulous about vehicle
> safety
> for the children. She is not going to be at all pleased about this, in
> fact, I am hoping to get this fixed before she finds out about it. As
> far
> as I can see there are two options:
>
> 1. Have ABS fitted to the vehicle at your expense. I am waiting to
> hear
> from DaimlerChrysler Canada to see if this is possible. It should be
> possible, although it may be expensive. As I am otherwise happy with
> the
> vehicle, this would probably be my preferred option.
>
> 2. A full refund of the purchase price and associated expenses, either
> in
> cash or set against the purchase of another Humber Motors vehicle which
> does
> have ABS and the other safety features I have mentioned. This should
> include:
>
> 19,540.50 Purchase price
> 885.50 Service contract
> 568.45 Fitting of four winter tires
> 159.95 Corrosion free treament
> 76.02 Winter maintenance service
> 200.00 Replacement of water pump
> 35.65 Examination of the ABS
>
> Needless to say, I am not very happy about this.
>
> Regards
>
> Peter
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Hello Peter
> I`ve spoke to the mechanic he advises that you stop in to the shop
> anytime
> between 8:00 a.m and 5:00 p.m so they can point out the components of
> ABS
> system
> regards **** *******
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> OK... but he'll have some difficulty if the components aren't there.
> Please
> see forwarded e-mail from DaimlerChrysler (which arrived this
> afternoon) who
> seem to think that ABS was not fitted to this vehicle at the time of
> manufacture. But I'll bring it in anyway - probably Friday afternoon.
>
> Regards, Peter.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dear ** ****:
>
> We have received your email of January 19, 2006 regarding your 2001
> Jeep
> Cherokee.
>
> We note that, at the time of manufacturing, your vehicle was equipped
> with Power Front Disc/Rear Drum Brakes. If you are seeking information
>
> on having ABS installed on your vehicle please contact your local
> DaimlerChrysler dealership (City Motors Chrysler # 709-637-1000) as
> they
> are equipped with any technical information.
>
> Further, with respect to obtaining a service manual, DaimlerChrysler
> Canada has recruited the services of an independent company to
> distribute owner

Earle Horton

This news group never ceases to entertain. Imagine a used car dealer,
offering for sale a vehicle with ABS installed, which didn't in fact have
that system!

In Peter's "Neighbor To The South" things like this can usually be taken
care of in small claims court, which is a service offered by the judicial
branch of county government. Although the full amount of the vehicle is
probably beyond their jurisdiction, having ABS fitted to the vehicle would
not be. You sue them in small claims court, to have ABS installed, or the
value of the ABS refunded. The existence of fraud, in "the Humber Motors
vehicle description which states that" ABS was included, prejudices things
in Peter's favor. The attempt by the mechanic to cover up the fraud
practically guarantees that the judge will grant some form of relief.

One has to be realistic though. The dealer will probably decide that
installation of ABS is either beyond his capabilities, or too much trouble
to be worth it. He is going to resist this option. The most that you can
reasonably hope for, is a partial refund, whatever the ABS is deemed to be
worth, ordered by the judge. The dealer may offer to buy the vehicle back,
but in most small claims jurisdictions that amount would be too much for a
judge to order it. Practically speaking, this means that you have to come
to a mutually agreeable arrangement with the dealer, whether it happens
under the supervision of the court or not. Expect to pay for whatever use
you have made of the vehicle to date too.

Another warning is in order. Once you decide to go to court, things rarely
turn out the way you expect, especially if you show up unprepared.

My personal opinion, is that you are blowing things way out of proportion,
and that ABS is not the great "safety feature" that you imagine it to be.
You were however offered it, and are entitled to some relief from this
situation.

Earle

"Lee Ayrton" <layrton@panix.com> wrote in message
news:drak7u$nvd$1@reader2.panix.com...
>
> Not that it has any bearing on your dispute with the dealer but
> depending on the road surfaces that you drive on ABS might not be a
> safety feature. ABS was derived from airliner technology and was
> designed for braking in a straight forward direction on clean, wet
> surfaces. On loose surfaces it will considerably lengthen your stopping
> distance.
>
> As for your dispute with the dealer (which, one hopes, is simply a
> mistake on their part), is there some sort of consumer advocate office
> in your neck of the woods? In some states in your Neighbor To The South
> there are governmental offices that specifically deal with automobile
> sales and repairs.
>
> Peter wrote:
> [snip]
> > What do you propose to do about this? It is abolutely essential for me
> > to have a vehicle with a full set of safety features including ABS, 4WD
> > and airbags, not least because we have three small children who will be
> > travelling in the vehicle, and my wife is meticulous about vehicle
> [snip]

Earle Horton

This news group never ceases to entertain. Imagine a used car dealer,
offering for sale a vehicle with ABS installed, which didn't in fact have
that system!

In Peter's "Neighbor To The South" things like this can usually be taken
care of in small claims court, which is a service offered by the judicial
branch of county government. Although the full amount of the vehicle is
probably beyond their jurisdiction, having ABS fitted to the vehicle would
not be. You sue them in small claims court, to have ABS installed, or the
value of the ABS refunded. The existence of fraud, in "the Humber Motors
vehicle description which states that" ABS was included, prejudices things
in Peter's favor. The attempt by the mechanic to cover up the fraud
practically guarantees that the judge will grant some form of relief.

One has to be realistic though. The dealer will probably decide that
installation of ABS is either beyond his capabilities, or too much trouble
to be worth it. He is going to resist this option. The most that you can
reasonably hope for, is a partial refund, whatever the ABS is deemed to be
worth, ordered by the judge. The dealer may offer to buy the vehicle back,
but in most small claims jurisdictions that amount would be too much for a
judge to order it. Practically speaking, this means that you have to come
to a mutually agreeable arrangement with the dealer, whether it happens
under the supervision of the court or not. Expect to pay for whatever use
you have made of the vehicle to date too.

Another warning is in order. Once you decide to go to court, things rarely
turn out the way you expect, especially if you show up unprepared.

My personal opinion, is that you are blowing things way out of proportion,
and that ABS is not the great "safety feature" that you imagine it to be.
You were however offered it, and are entitled to some relief from this
situation.

Earle

"Lee Ayrton" <layrton@panix.com> wrote in message
news:drak7u$nvd$1@reader2.panix.com...
>
> Not that it has any bearing on your dispute with the dealer but
> depending on the road surfaces that you drive on ABS might not be a
> safety feature. ABS was derived from airliner technology and was
> designed for braking in a straight forward direction on clean, wet
> surfaces. On loose surfaces it will considerably lengthen your stopping
> distance.
>
> As for your dispute with the dealer (which, one hopes, is simply a
> mistake on their part), is there some sort of consumer advocate office
> in your neck of the woods? In some states in your Neighbor To The South
> there are governmental offices that specifically deal with automobile
> sales and repairs.
>
> Peter wrote:
> [snip]
> > What do you propose to do about this? It is abolutely essential for me
> > to have a vehicle with a full set of safety features including ABS, 4WD
> > and airbags, not least because we have three small children who will be
> > travelling in the vehicle, and my wife is meticulous about vehicle
> [snip]

Earle Horton

This news group never ceases to entertain. Imagine a used car dealer,
offering for sale a vehicle with ABS installed, which didn't in fact have
that system!

In Peter's "Neighbor To The South" things like this can usually be taken
care of in small claims court, which is a service offered by the judicial
branch of county government. Although the full amount of the vehicle is
probably beyond their jurisdiction, having ABS fitted to the vehicle would
not be. You sue them in small claims court, to have ABS installed, or the
value of the ABS refunded. The existence of fraud, in "the Humber Motors
vehicle description which states that" ABS was included, prejudices things
in Peter's favor. The attempt by the mechanic to cover up the fraud
practically guarantees that the judge will grant some form of relief.

One has to be realistic though. The dealer will probably decide that
installation of ABS is either beyond his capabilities, or too much trouble
to be worth it. He is going to resist this option. The most that you can
reasonably hope for, is a partial refund, whatever the ABS is deemed to be
worth, ordered by the judge. The dealer may offer to buy the vehicle back,
but in most small claims jurisdictions that amount would be too much for a
judge to order it. Practically speaking, this means that you have to come
to a mutually agreeable arrangement with the dealer, whether it happens
under the supervision of the court or not. Expect to pay for whatever use
you have made of the vehicle to date too.

Another warning is in order. Once you decide to go to court, things rarely
turn out the way you expect, especially if you show up unprepared.

My personal opinion, is that you are blowing things way out of proportion,
and that ABS is not the great "safety feature" that you imagine it to be.
You were however offered it, and are entitled to some relief from this
situation.

Earle

"Lee Ayrton" <layrton@panix.com> wrote in message
news:drak7u$nvd$1@reader2.panix.com...
>
> Not that it has any bearing on your dispute with the dealer but
> depending on the road surfaces that you drive on ABS might not be a
> safety feature. ABS was derived from airliner technology and was
> designed for braking in a straight forward direction on clean, wet
> surfaces. On loose surfaces it will considerably lengthen your stopping
> distance.
>
> As for your dispute with the dealer (which, one hopes, is simply a
> mistake on their part), is there some sort of consumer advocate office
> in your neck of the woods? In some states in your Neighbor To The South
> there are governmental offices that specifically deal with automobile
> sales and repairs.
>
> Peter wrote:
> [snip]
> > What do you propose to do about this? It is abolutely essential for me
> > to have a vehicle with a full set of safety features including ABS, 4WD
> > and airbags, not least because we have three small children who will be
> > travelling in the vehicle, and my wife is meticulous about vehicle
> [snip]

Peter

> My personal opinion, is that you are blowing things way out of proportion,
> and that ABS is not the great "safety feature" that you imagine it to be.
> You were however offered it, and are entitled to some relief from this
> situation.
>
> Earle
>
Yes, I agree that ABS has its limitations. However, I think part of
its usefulness is taking the human error factor out of difficult
situations. For example, I know what I'm supposed to do in the event
of a skid: ease off then pump the brakes, steer in the direction of the
skid etc. But despite knowing that, I remember what I actually did a
few years ago when I got into a really bad skid: froze like a lemon,
jammed my foot hard on the brake and locked the steering wheel, and
stayed like that until the vehicle came to a stop. Instinctive
reaction. That's where ABS would have helped.

If I can't come to an agreement with the dealership I think I'll pay to
have ABS installed myself, then try to get a refund of as great a
portion of the cost of it as I can.

Peter

> My personal opinion, is that you are blowing things way out of proportion,
> and that ABS is not the great "safety feature" that you imagine it to be.
> You were however offered it, and are entitled to some relief from this
> situation.
>
> Earle
>
Yes, I agree that ABS has its limitations. However, I think part of
its usefulness is taking the human error factor out of difficult
situations. For example, I know what I'm supposed to do in the event
of a skid: ease off then pump the brakes, steer in the direction of the
skid etc. But despite knowing that, I remember what I actually did a
few years ago when I got into a really bad skid: froze like a lemon,
jammed my foot hard on the brake and locked the steering wheel, and
stayed like that until the vehicle came to a stop. Instinctive
reaction. That's where ABS would have helped.

If I can't come to an agreement with the dealership I think I'll pay to
have ABS installed myself, then try to get a refund of as great a
portion of the cost of it as I can.