Re: Independent Mechanics
 

i'm in howell and my labor rate is 40.00

reboot wrote:

> On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 23:28:06 -0400, reboot <reboot@nothere.com> wrote:
>
> >bought a '99 TJ 4.0 last spring, have a daughter driving it, 67k miles
> >
> >other than maintenance and a radio, i haven't had to spend much on
> >repairs.
> >
> >daughter comes home tuesday night just before i leave on a business
> >trip, says the car is running rough, idles rough. runs under WOT but
> >not well at part throttle.
> >
> >so being a student of this group i'm thinking electrical connectors on
> >the CPS or TPS or MAP sensor ... easy to get to. open each up, spray
> >out w/ electronics cleaner, put a dab of dielectric grease on it and
> >put them back together. pull the TB, looks clean, shoot it w/ some
> >carb cleaner and blow it out. check the IAC and clean it out. the
> >jeep now starts fine, idles smooth, drive it and runs part throttle or
> >full throttle fine. tell daughter it should be OK, leave town.
> >
> >phone call next day while i'm out of town, sam ting happening.
> >
> >so i call up an independent mechanic shop i've used over the past
> >three years and arrange for daughter to drop it off.
> >
> >up until now this shop has been excellent, good work, reasonable
> >prices, no upselling etc.
> >
> >today the service writer tells me that the MAP senson was bad, the
> >Throttle Body needed cleaning. my wife authorized the repair whild i
> >was on the trip.
> >
> >oh ... btw - the shocks and steering damper are shot and the serp
> >belt needs replaceing. sheesh, glad i didn't tell him to look
> >anywhere else. and that my wife had sense not to authorize these
> >fixes.
> >
> >so i check out the price for the MAP sensor. Mopar retail is about
> >$108 and I can get it for about $90. call the service writer back and
> >ask him how he gets from $110 to $270
> >
> >1 hr. diagnostics $82.00
> >MAP Sensor $110
> >Labor for MAP Sensor 0.7 hr $57
> >Labor for TB cleaning 0.25 hr $21
> >
> >hooking up a scanner ... about what - 5 minutes?
> >
> >replacing a MAP sensor on a 4.0 about what - another 5 minutes
> >
> >so i called the shop owner and told him that his diagnostic charge is
> >out of line on a car like this, that his labor is out of line for this
> >particular repair and that if i ever get upsold again i'd be taking my
> >business elsewhere and that i absolutely won't let my wife or
> >daughters drop a car off and authorize a repair ever again.
> >
> >i don't think he gets it.
> >
> >thanks for letting me vent, should have told the kid to wait until i
> >got home.
> >
> >reboot
> >
> >
> >---
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> >
> >
> the shop is AE Autocare in Livonia and until now I have been very
> happy with them.
>
> my first job was a kid-car, a '95 escort with front brakes acting up.
> took it in and they called me and said that the calipers were hanging
> up on corroded pins. that for about $250 they could replace them or
> for $100 they would take them apart and put the pins on a wire wheel
> and put it back together with some good lube. i was delighted because
> the car was only worth about $500 !!
>
> i know the serp belt needs replacing, i'll do it when i replace the
> cracked exhaust manifold. but i'll do that on my own time, not when
> i'm leaving on a business trip and have about 20 minutes to give it a
> quick once over and a lick and a promise.
>
> in this case there wasn't a check engine light flashing and if i had
> more time i would have gone to autozone and scanned it in the parking
> lot.
>
> he didn't offer (at least yet, I'm going to pick it up in a few
> minutes) to drop the diagnostics. the bone i'm picking is 'standard
> times' that don't vary by vehicle. on this tj it's really only a 5
> minute job to repace the MAP sensor.
>
> with some time available, i'm my own shade tree mechanic, i've got the
> FSM (props to the alt.binaries.e-books.technical newsgroup) and basic
> tools. just didn't have the chance this time with going out of town.
>
> gripe done ... peace
>
> reboot
>
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Re: Follow-up to Independent Mechanics
 

On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 02:01:27 -0600, Will Honea <whonea@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>reboot wrote:
>
>> don't mind paying for professional services, especially jobs i don't
>> have the tools or experience for.
>>
>> just bugs me paying somebody $$$ for doing a job I would have easily
>> and quickly done if I were in town.
>
>Reminds me of the story told of Tesla and Westinghouse.
>
>In the early days of electric power generation, Tesla got worked over pretty
>good by G. Westinghouse regarding patents. After Tesla left the company,
>Westinghouse installed some new, humongous generators at the then-new
>Niagara Falls plant and could never keep them on line because they
>overheated in a hurry. Finally, they called in Tesla. He showed up, as
>the story goes, borrowed a step ladder and pulled a piece of chalk from his
>pocket which he used to draw a one foot square on the case of the
>generator. "Cut a hole there" he told them and left. The generator then
>ran fine.
>
>He sent a bill to Westinghouse for $10,000 and old George had a fit - ten
>large was serious money in the late 1800's. Told Tesla he couldn't pay
>that kind of money for drawing a chalk square, so Tesla re-submitted the
>bill: Drawing chalk square - $10. Knowing WHERE to draw chalk square -
>$9,990.
>
>You pay for a lot more than what shows when you get professional service.
>Sometimes you feel shorted but I've chased too many bugs for too many hours
>and thrown too many parts at problems where competent mechanics provided
>the correct solution in a few minutes.
>
>--
>Will Honea


looks like it might be a 'come back' for his guy. i drove it a few
miles last Saturday and it bucked a few times under light throttle at
about 45 MPH about 3 minutes after a cold start then behaved itself
for the rest of the 15 mile drive.

my daughter told me today that it was acting up again today ...

i don't plan on paying the diagnostic this time and we may debate the
0.7 hrs. labor for putting in another part.

it would have been nice to get it done right the first time and save
the hassle of dropping it off and mom playing taxi.

we shall see

reboot


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Re: Follow-up to Independent Mechanics
 

On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 02:01:27 -0600, Will Honea <whonea@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>reboot wrote:
>
>> don't mind paying for professional services, especially jobs i don't
>> have the tools or experience for.
>>
>> just bugs me paying somebody $$$ for doing a job I would have easily
>> and quickly done if I were in town.
>
>Reminds me of the story told of Tesla and Westinghouse.
>
>In the early days of electric power generation, Tesla got worked over pretty
>good by G. Westinghouse regarding patents. After Tesla left the company,
>Westinghouse installed some new, humongous generators at the then-new
>Niagara Falls plant and could never keep them on line because they
>overheated in a hurry. Finally, they called in Tesla. He showed up, as
>the story goes, borrowed a step ladder and pulled a piece of chalk from his
>pocket which he used to draw a one foot square on the case of the
>generator. "Cut a hole there" he told them and left. The generator then
>ran fine.
>
>He sent a bill to Westinghouse for $10,000 and old George had a fit - ten
>large was serious money in the late 1800's. Told Tesla he couldn't pay
>that kind of money for drawing a chalk square, so Tesla re-submitted the
>bill: Drawing chalk square - $10. Knowing WHERE to draw chalk square -
>$9,990.
>
>You pay for a lot more than what shows when you get professional service.
>Sometimes you feel shorted but I've chased too many bugs for too many hours
>and thrown too many parts at problems where competent mechanics provided
>the correct solution in a few minutes.
>
>--
>Will Honea


looks like it might be a 'come back' for his guy. i drove it a few
miles last Saturday and it bucked a few times under light throttle at
about 45 MPH about 3 minutes after a cold start then behaved itself
for the rest of the 15 mile drive.

my daughter told me today that it was acting up again today ...

i don't plan on paying the diagnostic this time and we may debate the
0.7 hrs. labor for putting in another part.

it would have been nice to get it done right the first time and save
the hassle of dropping it off and mom playing taxi.

we shall see

reboot


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Re: Follow-up to Independent Mechanics
 

On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 02:01:27 -0600, Will Honea <whonea@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>reboot wrote:
>
>> don't mind paying for professional services, especially jobs i don't
>> have the tools or experience for.
>>
>> just bugs me paying somebody $$$ for doing a job I would have easily
>> and quickly done if I were in town.
>
>Reminds me of the story told of Tesla and Westinghouse.
>
>In the early days of electric power generation, Tesla got worked over pretty
>good by G. Westinghouse regarding patents. After Tesla left the company,
>Westinghouse installed some new, humongous generators at the then-new
>Niagara Falls plant and could never keep them on line because they
>overheated in a hurry. Finally, they called in Tesla. He showed up, as
>the story goes, borrowed a step ladder and pulled a piece of chalk from his
>pocket which he used to draw a one foot square on the case of the
>generator. "Cut a hole there" he told them and left. The generator then
>ran fine.
>
>He sent a bill to Westinghouse for $10,000 and old George had a fit - ten
>large was serious money in the late 1800's. Told Tesla he couldn't pay
>that kind of money for drawing a chalk square, so Tesla re-submitted the
>bill: Drawing chalk square - $10. Knowing WHERE to draw chalk square -
>$9,990.
>
>You pay for a lot more than what shows when you get professional service.
>Sometimes you feel shorted but I've chased too many bugs for too many hours
>and thrown too many parts at problems where competent mechanics provided
>the correct solution in a few minutes.
>
>--
>Will Honea


looks like it might be a 'come back' for his guy. i drove it a few
miles last Saturday and it bucked a few times under light throttle at
about 45 MPH about 3 minutes after a cold start then behaved itself
for the rest of the 15 mile drive.

my daughter told me today that it was acting up again today ...

i don't plan on paying the diagnostic this time and we may debate the
0.7 hrs. labor for putting in another part.

it would have been nice to get it done right the first time and save
the hassle of dropping it off and mom playing taxi.

we shall see

reboot


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Re: Follow-up to Independent Mechanics
 

On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 02:01:27 -0600, Will Honea <whonea@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>reboot wrote:
>
>> don't mind paying for professional services, especially jobs i don't
>> have the tools or experience for.
>>
>> just bugs me paying somebody $$$ for doing a job I would have easily
>> and quickly done if I were in town.
>
>Reminds me of the story told of Tesla and Westinghouse.
>
>In the early days of electric power generation, Tesla got worked over pretty
>good by G. Westinghouse regarding patents. After Tesla left the company,
>Westinghouse installed some new, humongous generators at the then-new
>Niagara Falls plant and could never keep them on line because they
>overheated in a hurry. Finally, they called in Tesla. He showed up, as
>the story goes, borrowed a step ladder and pulled a piece of chalk from his
>pocket which he used to draw a one foot square on the case of the
>generator. "Cut a hole there" he told them and left. The generator then
>ran fine.
>
>He sent a bill to Westinghouse for $10,000 and old George had a fit - ten
>large was serious money in the late 1800's. Told Tesla he couldn't pay
>that kind of money for drawing a chalk square, so Tesla re-submitted the
>bill: Drawing chalk square - $10. Knowing WHERE to draw chalk square -
>$9,990.
>
>You pay for a lot more than what shows when you get professional service.
>Sometimes you feel shorted but I've chased too many bugs for too many hours
>and thrown too many parts at problems where competent mechanics provided
>the correct solution in a few minutes.
>
>--
>Will Honea


looks like it might be a 'come back' for his guy. i drove it a few
miles last Saturday and it bucked a few times under light throttle at
about 45 MPH about 3 minutes after a cold start then behaved itself
for the rest of the 15 mile drive.

my daughter told me today that it was acting up again today ...

i don't plan on paying the diagnostic this time and we may debate the
0.7 hrs. labor for putting in another part.

it would have been nice to get it done right the first time and save
the hassle of dropping it off and mom playing taxi.

we shall see

reboot


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Re: Independent Mechanics
 

the after market techs are usually smarter than a dealer tech, they have to work
on many different brands and usually have twice the schooling since a dealer
only does enough to satisfy the conditions of franchise ownership and the
dealer techs are usually under the age of 30 so they have way less auto repair
wisdom
the days of learning how to wrench while working are over
techs now have 4 years of collage or 2 years trade school and get hired into
engineering jobs and such right out of school and this is cauing a tech shortage
big time ESP. WHEN THEY GET WIND OF FLAT RATE AND WHINING CUSTOMERS WHO EXPECT
FREE WORK

Big Tex wrote:

> A dealer mechanic is usually factory trained where as most independent shop
> mechanics aren't, ergo, they usually charge less per hour for labor
>
> "XS11E" <xs11e@mailinator.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns99AC612CB4CC6xs11emailinatorcom@69.28.173. 184...
> > "Big Tex" <big_tex_1@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >> But this guy looks like he charges the same as a dealer would!
> >
> > Why not? I'll bet his mechanics shop at the same stores and pay the
> > same prices as the dealers mechanics do, why should they earn less?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > XS11E, Killing all posts from Google Groups
> > The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html

Re: Independent Mechanics
 

the after market techs are usually smarter than a dealer tech, they have to work
on many different brands and usually have twice the schooling since a dealer
only does enough to satisfy the conditions of franchise ownership and the
dealer techs are usually under the age of 30 so they have way less auto repair
wisdom
the days of learning how to wrench while working are over
techs now have 4 years of collage or 2 years trade school and get hired into
engineering jobs and such right out of school and this is cauing a tech shortage
big time ESP. WHEN THEY GET WIND OF FLAT RATE AND WHINING CUSTOMERS WHO EXPECT
FREE WORK

Big Tex wrote:

> A dealer mechanic is usually factory trained where as most independent shop
> mechanics aren't, ergo, they usually charge less per hour for labor
>
> "XS11E" <xs11e@mailinator.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns99AC612CB4CC6xs11emailinatorcom@69.28.173. 184...
> > "Big Tex" <big_tex_1@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >> But this guy looks like he charges the same as a dealer would!
> >
> > Why not? I'll bet his mechanics shop at the same stores and pay the
> > same prices as the dealers mechanics do, why should they earn less?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > XS11E, Killing all posts from Google Groups
> > The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html

Re: Independent Mechanics
 

the after market techs are usually smarter than a dealer tech, they have to work
on many different brands and usually have twice the schooling since a dealer
only does enough to satisfy the conditions of franchise ownership and the
dealer techs are usually under the age of 30 so they have way less auto repair
wisdom
the days of learning how to wrench while working are over
techs now have 4 years of collage or 2 years trade school and get hired into
engineering jobs and such right out of school and this is cauing a tech shortage
big time ESP. WHEN THEY GET WIND OF FLAT RATE AND WHINING CUSTOMERS WHO EXPECT
FREE WORK

Big Tex wrote:

> A dealer mechanic is usually factory trained where as most independent shop
> mechanics aren't, ergo, they usually charge less per hour for labor
>
> "XS11E" <xs11e@mailinator.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns99AC612CB4CC6xs11emailinatorcom@69.28.173. 184...
> > "Big Tex" <big_tex_1@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >> But this guy looks like he charges the same as a dealer would!
> >
> > Why not? I'll bet his mechanics shop at the same stores and pay the
> > same prices as the dealers mechanics do, why should they earn less?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > XS11E, Killing all posts from Google Groups
> > The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html

Re: Independent Mechanics
 

the after market techs are usually smarter than a dealer tech, they have to work
on many different brands and usually have twice the schooling since a dealer
only does enough to satisfy the conditions of franchise ownership and the
dealer techs are usually under the age of 30 so they have way less auto repair
wisdom
the days of learning how to wrench while working are over
techs now have 4 years of collage or 2 years trade school and get hired into
engineering jobs and such right out of school and this is cauing a tech shortage
big time ESP. WHEN THEY GET WIND OF FLAT RATE AND WHINING CUSTOMERS WHO EXPECT
FREE WORK

Big Tex wrote:

> A dealer mechanic is usually factory trained where as most independent shop
> mechanics aren't, ergo, they usually charge less per hour for labor
>
> "XS11E" <xs11e@mailinator.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns99AC612CB4CC6xs11emailinatorcom@69.28.173. 184...
> > "Big Tex" <big_tex_1@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >> But this guy looks like he charges the same as a dealer would!
> >
> > Why not? I'll bet his mechanics shop at the same stores and pay the
> > same prices as the dealers mechanics do, why should they earn less?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > XS11E, Killing all posts from Google Groups
> > The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html

Re: Independent Mechanics
 

On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 21:40:34 -0400, philthy <dbrider@cac.net> wrote:

>do you think his boss comes to him and says your are working a half pay
>today???
>that is what he was asking of that shop owner
>hell let him find the tools to do that work not to mention the scanner to
>look at the pcm
>i had a call from california sunday about a car no one can seem to fgure
>out and the dealer s told him no way they would even look at it and in
>talking to this guy he told me the labor rate out there is 95 to 110 a
>hour. 82 is cheap
>if you walked into my shop and pulled that the check out fee crap i would
>have gone to 100.00 to release vehicle and if it sat there 2 days there
>would have been a 20 dollar storage fee ta boot
>or by the way your boss will be making you pay in full for health care
>
>bllsht wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 23:28:06 -0400, reboot <reboot@nothere.com> wrote:
>>
>> >bought a '99 TJ 4.0 last spring, have a daughter driving it, 67k miles
>> >
>> >other than maintenance and a radio, i haven't had to spend much on
>> >repairs.
>> >
>> >daughter comes home tuesday night just before i leave on a business
>> >trip, says the car is running rough, idles rough. runs under WOT but
>> >not well at part throttle.
>> >
>> >so being a student of this group i'm thinking electrical connectors on
>> >the CPS or TPS or MAP sensor ... easy to get to. open each up, spray
>> >out w/ electronics cleaner, put a dab of dielectric grease on it and
>> >put them back together. pull the TB, looks clean, shoot it w/ some
>> >carb cleaner and blow it out. check the IAC and clean it out. the
>> >jeep now starts fine, idles smooth, drive it and runs part throttle or
>> >full throttle fine. tell daughter it should be OK, leave town.
>> >
>> >phone call next day while i'm out of town, sam ting happening.
>> >
>> >so i call up an independent mechanic shop i've used over the past
>> >three years and arrange for daughter to drop it off.
>> >
>> >up until now this shop has been excellent, good work, reasonable
>> >prices, no upselling etc.
>> >
>> >today the service writer tells me that the MAP senson was bad, the
>> >Throttle Body needed cleaning. my wife authorized the repair whild i
>> >was on the trip.
>> >
>> >oh ... btw - the shocks and steering damper are shot and the serp
>> >belt needs replaceing. sheesh, glad i didn't tell him to look
>> >anywhere else. and that my wife had sense not to authorize these
>> >fixes.
>> >
>> >so i check out the price for the MAP sensor. Mopar retail is about
>> >$108 and I can get it for about $90. call the service writer back and
>> >ask him how he gets from $110 to $270
>> >
>> >1 hr. diagnostics $82.00
>> >MAP Sensor $110
>> >Labor for MAP Sensor 0.7 hr $57
>> >Labor for TB cleaning 0.25 hr $21
>> >
>> >hooking up a scanner ... about what - 5 minutes?
>> >
>> >replacing a MAP sensor on a 4.0 about what - another 5 minutes
>> >
>> >so i called the shop owner and told him that his diagnostic charge is
>> >out of line on a car like this, that his labor is out of line for this
>> >particular repair and that if i ever get upsold again i'd be taking my
>> >business elsewhere and that i absolutely won't let my wife or
>> >daughters drop a car off and authorize a repair ever again.
>> >
>> >i don't think he gets it.
>> >
>> >thanks for letting me vent, should have told the kid to wait until i
>> >got home.
>>
>> Or you should have diagnosed and repaired it properly the first time.
>>
>> >
>> >reboot
>> >
>> >
>> >---
>> >avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
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>> >Tested on: 9/14/2007 11:28:08 PM
>> >avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
>> >http://www.avast.com
>> >
>> >

rising to the bait ...

my beef isn't if the guy gets paid full fare, i want him to be a
successful businessman - really. and if his pricing policy is that
everybody pays 1 hour for diagnostics regardless of the type of car or
problem, then that's his business to do so.

my repair is now going back for what seems to be the same problem. if
he is a honorable guy he won't ding me a second time for a diagnostic
charge and if he has to now replace the IAT or TPS or something else
in the immediate vicinity to the MAP sensor he just replaced ... i
don't think that is worth another 0.7 hours of labor

and if you think he's justified in charging more labor for adjacent
parts... is 6 spark plugs worth 4.2 hours ?

repeat business is the best kind and word of mouth the best
advertising. i vote with my wallet or my feet.

reboot


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