In article <3F9AD15B.5020308@computer.org>, Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
> Brent P wrote:
>> In article <3F9A6C91.5030809@computer.org>, Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>I especially like how they try to explain away the dinosaurs. That
>>>>they lived 6000 years ago. There are acient monuments built to star
>>>>alignments older than that. (The pyramids of giza for one) There is
>>>>alot of real evidence that civilization (and the knowledge/technology)
>>>>is far older than established science claims, older than your
>>>>creationists claim the dinosaurs are.
>>>>
>>>>For instance the kind of real evidence I speak of are things like star
>>>>alignments of various acient monuments around the world. Monuments that
>>>>go under water, on ground that hasn't been dry land since the last
>>>>ice age, etc and so forth. Come up with hard stuff like that for
>>>>creation. Not just the bible says so, so it is.
>>>
>>>All of the above depends on an accurate means of dating things that
>>>occurred before any of us were around, and that simply doesn't exist.
>>>And there is no way to calibrate accurately or prove it anyway.
>>
>>
>> It's very easy to get an accurate rate. By measuring the precession (sp?)
>> of stars now we can tell how they appeared thousands of years ago.
>> Some acient cultures appear to have been able to make these calculations
>> as well. The same goes for layers of ice, tree rings, soil depth, etc
>> etc etc...
>>
>>
>
> The key word is "appear." It is extremely unlikely that we will ever
> know "for sure" what happened years ago. We can look at lots of
> circumstantial evidence and try to draw logical conclusions, but the
> reality is that we'll simply never know with certainty and some
> scientists just seem unable to accept that. So, they claim certainty
> about things that simply aren't and lose credibility.

It's very clear that discussion with you absolutely pointless. Now that
you take appear out of context. If you want to live in the 12th century
fine, I don't.

The reality is alot is *KNOWN* with a great deal of certainity. You just
refuse to accept it because it doesn't match with your reading of a book
of faith. What would you call someone who held up some book by L.Ron
Hubbard and refused to believe anything that wasn't in it?

 

"rickety" <ricklugg@knickers.iname.com> wrote in message
news:3f9929ba@rpc1284.daytonoh.ncr.com...
> FDRanger92 wrote:
> > "Bill Funk" <bfunk33@qwest.net> wrote in message
> > news:kvh1svkqne0tqu50v0ce66easicm0hac71@4ax.com...
> >> On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:28:42 -0400, "rickety"
> >> <ricklugg@knickers.iname.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Kevin wrote:
> >>>> RJ wrote:
> >>>>> Nate Nagel <njnagel@hornytoad.net> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> RJ wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Nate Nagel <njnagel@hornytoad.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Remember the days when you could buy a wagon and expect to haul
> >>>>>>>> plywood and tow a trailer with it?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 1. No 4x4 (a factor wherever it snows)
> >>>>>>> 2. Those old beasts delivered around 12 mpg.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If you claim that point 2 is negated by modern technology,
> >>>>>>> everything I've seen with seriously higher gas mileage is front
> >>>>>>> wheel drive and is therefore worthless as a towing vehicle.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> That's not the fault of "passenger cars" per se, it's the fault
> >>>>>> of CAFE which has killed the full sized car as we once knew it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The only true full size car left is the Crown Vic. Still rear
> >>>>> wheel
> >>>> dirve with steel frame. Big fan, and heavy enough to keep you
> >>>> alive.
> >>>
> >>> istr that the story is when they are hit from the rear the fuel
> >>> tank is prone to rupture and ignite the spillage. Kind of like a
> >>> big Pinto.
> >>
> >> They need to be hit pretty hard.
> >> Like at a closing speed of more that 40 mph, IIRC.
> >>
> >
> > More like 50-70. The ones thar have exploded have been hit at very
> > high speeds. Also when you hit cars that tend to have ammunition in
> > the trunk you might just get a fire.
>
> It's interesting, as your points are highly believable, but they don't
come
> up in the news programs. I would have thought that if ammunition was a
> contributing factor then Ford would have been highlighting that in public
> announcements.
>
> --
> Rickety
>
>

I kind of wonder about that myself. Every police officer I know has some
amount of ammunition and road flairs in the trunk. A hard enough impact on
the ammo can set it off, and considering the speeds at which the cars were
hit, I would think it could contribute to a fire. I really don't think any
car would hold up to the kind of impacts these things have had, and the
numbers are relatively low considering the age and number of cars on the
road.

 

"rickety" <ricklugg@knickers.iname.com> wrote in message
news:3f9929ba@rpc1284.daytonoh.ncr.com...
> FDRanger92 wrote:
> > "Bill Funk" <bfunk33@qwest.net> wrote in message
> > news:kvh1svkqne0tqu50v0ce66easicm0hac71@4ax.com...
> >> On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:28:42 -0400, "rickety"
> >> <ricklugg@knickers.iname.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Kevin wrote:
> >>>> RJ wrote:
> >>>>> Nate Nagel <njnagel@hornytoad.net> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> RJ wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Nate Nagel <njnagel@hornytoad.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Remember the days when you could buy a wagon and expect to haul
> >>>>>>>> plywood and tow a trailer with it?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 1. No 4x4 (a factor wherever it snows)
> >>>>>>> 2. Those old beasts delivered around 12 mpg.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If you claim that point 2 is negated by modern technology,
> >>>>>>> everything I've seen with seriously higher gas mileage is front
> >>>>>>> wheel drive and is therefore worthless as a towing vehicle.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> That's not the fault of "passenger cars" per se, it's the fault
> >>>>>> of CAFE which has killed the full sized car as we once knew it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The only true full size car left is the Crown Vic. Still rear
> >>>>> wheel
> >>>> dirve with steel frame. Big fan, and heavy enough to keep you
> >>>> alive.
> >>>
> >>> istr that the story is when they are hit from the rear the fuel
> >>> tank is prone to rupture and ignite the spillage. Kind of like a
> >>> big Pinto.
> >>
> >> They need to be hit pretty hard.
> >> Like at a closing speed of more that 40 mph, IIRC.
> >>
> >
> > More like 50-70. The ones thar have exploded have been hit at very
> > high speeds. Also when you hit cars that tend to have ammunition in
> > the trunk you might just get a fire.
>
> It's interesting, as your points are highly believable, but they don't
come
> up in the news programs. I would have thought that if ammunition was a
> contributing factor then Ford would have been highlighting that in public
> announcements.
>
> --
> Rickety
>
>

I kind of wonder about that myself. Every police officer I know has some
amount of ammunition and road flairs in the trunk. A hard enough impact on
the ammo can set it off, and considering the speeds at which the cars were
hit, I would think it could contribute to a fire. I really don't think any
car would hold up to the kind of impacts these things have had, and the
numbers are relatively low considering the age and number of cars on the
road.

 

"rickety" <ricklugg@knickers.iname.com> wrote in message
news:3f9929ba@rpc1284.daytonoh.ncr.com...
> FDRanger92 wrote:
> > "Bill Funk" <bfunk33@qwest.net> wrote in message
> > news:kvh1svkqne0tqu50v0ce66easicm0hac71@4ax.com...
> >> On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:28:42 -0400, "rickety"
> >> <ricklugg@knickers.iname.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Kevin wrote:
> >>>> RJ wrote:
> >>>>> Nate Nagel <njnagel@hornytoad.net> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> RJ wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Nate Nagel <njnagel@hornytoad.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Remember the days when you could buy a wagon and expect to haul
> >>>>>>>> plywood and tow a trailer with it?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 1. No 4x4 (a factor wherever it snows)
> >>>>>>> 2. Those old beasts delivered around 12 mpg.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If you claim that point 2 is negated by modern technology,
> >>>>>>> everything I've seen with seriously higher gas mileage is front
> >>>>>>> wheel drive and is therefore worthless as a towing vehicle.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> That's not the fault of "passenger cars" per se, it's the fault
> >>>>>> of CAFE which has killed the full sized car as we once knew it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The only true full size car left is the Crown Vic. Still rear
> >>>>> wheel
> >>>> dirve with steel frame. Big fan, and heavy enough to keep you
> >>>> alive.
> >>>
> >>> istr that the story is when they are hit from the rear the fuel
> >>> tank is prone to rupture and ignite the spillage. Kind of like a
> >>> big Pinto.
> >>
> >> They need to be hit pretty hard.
> >> Like at a closing speed of more that 40 mph, IIRC.
> >>
> >
> > More like 50-70. The ones thar have exploded have been hit at very
> > high speeds. Also when you hit cars that tend to have ammunition in
> > the trunk you might just get a fire.
>
> It's interesting, as your points are highly believable, but they don't
come
> up in the news programs. I would have thought that if ammunition was a
> contributing factor then Ford would have been highlighting that in public
> announcements.
>
> --
> Rickety
>
>

I kind of wonder about that myself. Every police officer I know has some
amount of ammunition and road flairs in the trunk. A hard enough impact on
the ammo can set it off, and considering the speeds at which the cars were
hit, I would think it could contribute to a fire. I really don't think any
car would hold up to the kind of impacts these things have had, and the
numbers are relatively low considering the age and number of cars on the
road.

 

All of the diesels have their own very special set of problems.... Difficult
to start in cold climates (my next truck will still be a SuperDuty diesel),
the need to be religious about servicing the air filter, the amount of
damage that can be caused by substandard fuel ( compared to a gas motor),
higher costs regarding scheduled maintenance, difficulty in finding service
outlets.... the list goes on.

I can't speak for the current crop of Land Cruiser.... if they still use an
indirect injection pump, these are fragile and are likely based on the old
RoosaMaster pump - expensive is a word I could use. If they use the newer
HEUI injector technology, specialized electronic test equipment is required
for much in the way of running problem diagnostics. I don't believe there
are any 'golden' solutions. I can't see diesel fuel being any cheaper in
Nova Scotia than here in oil country.

Still, it boils down to driving whatever floats our boats..... If it takes
an $80 fillup to keep my loving bride feeling safe and comfortable, then an
$80 fillup is what it shall be.Though I am a big proponent of minimizing
emissions, I will always view it "in context".


--
Jim Warman
mechanic@telusplanet.net

"Chris Phillipo" <Xcphillipo@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:MPG.19fc8da940b757a9989e20@news.eastlink.ca.. .
> In article <3F9249CA.185973EC@itis.com>, se1aard1@itis.com says...
> >
> >
> > Chris Phillipo wrote:
> >
> > > I assume you are talking about something like the Adventra. If they
can
> > > just avoid having the "SUV" moniker applied to it it will coast
> > > effortlessly under the greenie radar. Of course that thing would never
> > > sell in America if they called it a station wagon.
> >
> > How about a "sports tourer"?
> >
> > They've got a Monaro/GTO coupe version too, btw. To paraphrase another
poster, 0-60
> > in 6.4 seconds--on gravel!
> >
> > --Aardwolf.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Again these are great cars, just like many of the great cars that failed
> miserably in the US market. If I could get a nice efficient turbo
> diesel Land Cruiser here I'd be laughing very time I pulled up to a pump
> instead of crying.
> --
> ____________________
> Remove "X" from email address to reply.

 

All of the diesels have their own very special set of problems.... Difficult
to start in cold climates (my next truck will still be a SuperDuty diesel),
the need to be religious about servicing the air filter, the amount of
damage that can be caused by substandard fuel ( compared to a gas motor),
higher costs regarding scheduled maintenance, difficulty in finding service
outlets.... the list goes on.

I can't speak for the current crop of Land Cruiser.... if they still use an
indirect injection pump, these are fragile and are likely based on the old
RoosaMaster pump - expensive is a word I could use. If they use the newer
HEUI injector technology, specialized electronic test equipment is required
for much in the way of running problem diagnostics. I don't believe there
are any 'golden' solutions. I can't see diesel fuel being any cheaper in
Nova Scotia than here in oil country.

Still, it boils down to driving whatever floats our boats..... If it takes
an $80 fillup to keep my loving bride feeling safe and comfortable, then an
$80 fillup is what it shall be.Though I am a big proponent of minimizing
emissions, I will always view it "in context".


--
Jim Warman
mechanic@telusplanet.net

"Chris Phillipo" <Xcphillipo@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:MPG.19fc8da940b757a9989e20@news.eastlink.ca.. .
> In article <3F9249CA.185973EC@itis.com>, se1aard1@itis.com says...
> >
> >
> > Chris Phillipo wrote:
> >
> > > I assume you are talking about something like the Adventra. If they
can
> > > just avoid having the "SUV" moniker applied to it it will coast
> > > effortlessly under the greenie radar. Of course that thing would never
> > > sell in America if they called it a station wagon.
> >
> > How about a "sports tourer"?
> >
> > They've got a Monaro/GTO coupe version too, btw. To paraphrase another
poster, 0-60
> > in 6.4 seconds--on gravel!
> >
> > --Aardwolf.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Again these are great cars, just like many of the great cars that failed
> miserably in the US market. If I could get a nice efficient turbo
> diesel Land Cruiser here I'd be laughing very time I pulled up to a pump
> instead of crying.
> --
> ____________________
> Remove "X" from email address to reply.

 

All of the diesels have their own very special set of problems.... Difficult
to start in cold climates (my next truck will still be a SuperDuty diesel),
the need to be religious about servicing the air filter, the amount of
damage that can be caused by substandard fuel ( compared to a gas motor),
higher costs regarding scheduled maintenance, difficulty in finding service
outlets.... the list goes on.

I can't speak for the current crop of Land Cruiser.... if they still use an
indirect injection pump, these are fragile and are likely based on the old
RoosaMaster pump - expensive is a word I could use. If they use the newer
HEUI injector technology, specialized electronic test equipment is required
for much in the way of running problem diagnostics. I don't believe there
are any 'golden' solutions. I can't see diesel fuel being any cheaper in
Nova Scotia than here in oil country.

Still, it boils down to driving whatever floats our boats..... If it takes
an $80 fillup to keep my loving bride feeling safe and comfortable, then an
$80 fillup is what it shall be.Though I am a big proponent of minimizing
emissions, I will always view it "in context".


--
Jim Warman
mechanic@telusplanet.net

"Chris Phillipo" <Xcphillipo@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:MPG.19fc8da940b757a9989e20@news.eastlink.ca.. .
> In article <3F9249CA.185973EC@itis.com>, se1aard1@itis.com says...
> >
> >
> > Chris Phillipo wrote:
> >
> > > I assume you are talking about something like the Adventra. If they
can
> > > just avoid having the "SUV" moniker applied to it it will coast
> > > effortlessly under the greenie radar. Of course that thing would never
> > > sell in America if they called it a station wagon.
> >
> > How about a "sports tourer"?
> >
> > They've got a Monaro/GTO coupe version too, btw. To paraphrase another
poster, 0-60
> > in 6.4 seconds--on gravel!
> >
> > --Aardwolf.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Again these are great cars, just like many of the great cars that failed
> miserably in the US market. If I could get a nice efficient turbo
> diesel Land Cruiser here I'd be laughing very time I pulled up to a pump
> instead of crying.
> --
> ____________________
> Remove "X" from email address to reply.

 

If in the US the problem is also the availablity of diesel engines. Most are
petrol and of diesels, most are old tech kept over form older models.
Many good diesels are kept out for strange reasons. the very effective Isuzu
4jb1 2.8 TD was never used in US Isuzus, only the anemic C223 2.2L diesel
was offered, along with under powered 2.8L petrol GM V6. Theres similiar
stories with other brands, the good diesels were never released in the US.

rhys

"Jim Warman" <mechanic@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:nNHmb.28346$EO3.26387@clgrps13...
> All of the diesels have their own very special set of problems....
Difficult
> to start in cold climates (my next truck will still be a SuperDuty
diesel),
> the need to be religious about servicing the air filter, the amount of
> damage that can be caused by substandard fuel ( compared to a gas motor),
> higher costs regarding scheduled maintenance, difficulty in finding
service
> outlets.... the list goes on.
>
> I can't speak for the current crop of Land Cruiser.... if they still use
an
> indirect injection pump, these are fragile and are likely based on the old
> RoosaMaster pump - expensive is a word I could use. If they use the newer
> HEUI injector technology, specialized electronic test equipment is
required
> for much in the way of running problem diagnostics. I don't believe there
> are any 'golden' solutions. I can't see diesel fuel being any cheaper in
> Nova Scotia than here in oil country.
>
> Still, it boils down to driving whatever floats our boats..... If it takes
> an $80 fillup to keep my loving bride feeling safe and comfortable, then
an
> $80 fillup is what it shall be.Though I am a big proponent of minimizing
> emissions, I will always view it "in context".
>
>
> --
> Jim Warman
> mechanic@telusplanet.net
>
> "Chris Phillipo" <Xcphillipo@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:MPG.19fc8da940b757a9989e20@news.eastlink.ca.. .
> > In article <3F9249CA.185973EC@itis.com>, se1aard1@itis.com says...
> > >
> > >
> > > Chris Phillipo wrote:
> > >
> > > > I assume you are talking about something like the Adventra. If they
> can
> > > > just avoid having the "SUV" moniker applied to it it will coast
> > > > effortlessly under the greenie radar. Of course that thing would
never
> > > > sell in America if they called it a station wagon.
> > >
> > > How about a "sports tourer"?
> > >
> > > They've got a Monaro/GTO coupe version too, btw. To paraphrase
another
> poster, 0-60
> > > in 6.4 seconds--on gravel!
> > >
> > > --Aardwolf.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Again these are great cars, just like many of the great cars that failed
> > miserably in the US market. If I could get a nice efficient turbo
> > diesel Land Cruiser here I'd be laughing very time I pulled up to a pump
> > instead of crying.
> > --
> > ____________________
> > Remove "X" from email address to reply.
>
>

 

If in the US the problem is also the availablity of diesel engines. Most are
petrol and of diesels, most are old tech kept over form older models.
Many good diesels are kept out for strange reasons. the very effective Isuzu
4jb1 2.8 TD was never used in US Isuzus, only the anemic C223 2.2L diesel
was offered, along with under powered 2.8L petrol GM V6. Theres similiar
stories with other brands, the good diesels were never released in the US.

rhys

"Jim Warman" <mechanic@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:nNHmb.28346$EO3.26387@clgrps13...
> All of the diesels have their own very special set of problems....
Difficult
> to start in cold climates (my next truck will still be a SuperDuty
diesel),
> the need to be religious about servicing the air filter, the amount of
> damage that can be caused by substandard fuel ( compared to a gas motor),
> higher costs regarding scheduled maintenance, difficulty in finding
service
> outlets.... the list goes on.
>
> I can't speak for the current crop of Land Cruiser.... if they still use
an
> indirect injection pump, these are fragile and are likely based on the old
> RoosaMaster pump - expensive is a word I could use. If they use the newer
> HEUI injector technology, specialized electronic test equipment is
required
> for much in the way of running problem diagnostics. I don't believe there
> are any 'golden' solutions. I can't see diesel fuel being any cheaper in
> Nova Scotia than here in oil country.
>
> Still, it boils down to driving whatever floats our boats..... If it takes
> an $80 fillup to keep my loving bride feeling safe and comfortable, then
an
> $80 fillup is what it shall be.Though I am a big proponent of minimizing
> emissions, I will always view it "in context".
>
>
> --
> Jim Warman
> mechanic@telusplanet.net
>
> "Chris Phillipo" <Xcphillipo@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:MPG.19fc8da940b757a9989e20@news.eastlink.ca.. .
> > In article <3F9249CA.185973EC@itis.com>, se1aard1@itis.com says...
> > >
> > >
> > > Chris Phillipo wrote:
> > >
> > > > I assume you are talking about something like the Adventra. If they
> can
> > > > just avoid having the "SUV" moniker applied to it it will coast
> > > > effortlessly under the greenie radar. Of course that thing would
never
> > > > sell in America if they called it a station wagon.
> > >
> > > How about a "sports tourer"?
> > >
> > > They've got a Monaro/GTO coupe version too, btw. To paraphrase
another
> poster, 0-60
> > > in 6.4 seconds--on gravel!
> > >
> > > --Aardwolf.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Again these are great cars, just like many of the great cars that failed
> > miserably in the US market. If I could get a nice efficient turbo
> > diesel Land Cruiser here I'd be laughing very time I pulled up to a pump
> > instead of crying.
> > --
> > ____________________
> > Remove "X" from email address to reply.
>
>

 

If in the US the problem is also the availablity of diesel engines. Most are
petrol and of diesels, most are old tech kept over form older models.
Many good diesels are kept out for strange reasons. the very effective Isuzu
4jb1 2.8 TD was never used in US Isuzus, only the anemic C223 2.2L diesel
was offered, along with under powered 2.8L petrol GM V6. Theres similiar
stories with other brands, the good diesels were never released in the US.

rhys

"Jim Warman" <mechanic@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:nNHmb.28346$EO3.26387@clgrps13...
> All of the diesels have their own very special set of problems....
Difficult
> to start in cold climates (my next truck will still be a SuperDuty
diesel),
> the need to be religious about servicing the air filter, the amount of
> damage that can be caused by substandard fuel ( compared to a gas motor),
> higher costs regarding scheduled maintenance, difficulty in finding
service
> outlets.... the list goes on.
>
> I can't speak for the current crop of Land Cruiser.... if they still use
an
> indirect injection pump, these are fragile and are likely based on the old
> RoosaMaster pump - expensive is a word I could use. If they use the newer
> HEUI injector technology, specialized electronic test equipment is
required
> for much in the way of running problem diagnostics. I don't believe there
> are any 'golden' solutions. I can't see diesel fuel being any cheaper in
> Nova Scotia than here in oil country.
>
> Still, it boils down to driving whatever floats our boats..... If it takes
> an $80 fillup to keep my loving bride feeling safe and comfortable, then
an
> $80 fillup is what it shall be.Though I am a big proponent of minimizing
> emissions, I will always view it "in context".
>
>
> --
> Jim Warman
> mechanic@telusplanet.net
>
> "Chris Phillipo" <Xcphillipo@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:MPG.19fc8da940b757a9989e20@news.eastlink.ca.. .
> > In article <3F9249CA.185973EC@itis.com>, se1aard1@itis.com says...
> > >
> > >
> > > Chris Phillipo wrote:
> > >
> > > > I assume you are talking about something like the Adventra. If they
> can
> > > > just avoid having the "SUV" moniker applied to it it will coast
> > > > effortlessly under the greenie radar. Of course that thing would
never
> > > > sell in America if they called it a station wagon.
> > >
> > > How about a "sports tourer"?
> > >
> > > They've got a Monaro/GTO coupe version too, btw. To paraphrase
another
> poster, 0-60
> > > in 6.4 seconds--on gravel!
> > >
> > > --Aardwolf.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Again these are great cars, just like many of the great cars that failed
> > miserably in the US market. If I could get a nice efficient turbo
> > diesel Land Cruiser here I'd be laughing very time I pulled up to a pump
> > instead of crying.
> > --
> > ____________________
> > Remove "X" from email address to reply.
>
>