"Aardwolf" <se1aard1@itis.com> wrote in message
news:3F95F6A2.9F1F5262@itis.com...
>
>
> I disagree--to an extent. As I've said before, people will buy what
they're
> told they want. If there were a lot of Magnum-type wagons and sedans that
> actually had some real style and to them--AND available AWD, and more to
the
> point if there was actually advertising to explain to people how kick-***
they
> thought they were, I'll bet there would be a large shift away from
suddently
> stodgy, ill handling trucks. Sure a number of people would still buy
trucks
> to haul stuff around, and some might still want some for image--they
always
> have, even pre-Dukes of Hazzard, but Navigators and Envoys and Escalades?
> They'd be gone.
>

You cannot substitute "styling" for interior leg and head room. You have to
go
back to the early 70's like a 73 T-Bird or a Old 98 before you can find a
sedan that could actually fit 4 adults comfortably. Sure, if automakers
started
producing such vehicles again, you might knock off a few SUVs that were
bought to haul adults around, but the people that bought SUV's for real
hauling aren't going to go to a wagon, and the people that bought them to
haul
families aren't going to go to a wagon either (although they would have
been
a lot smarter to have bought either a minivan or a full size van, IMHO)
and the posers that bought them to pretend they are offroaders in the
city aren't going to go to a sedan either.

Where station wagons shine is if you have ONE driver that regularly
has a need of hauling small to mid size delivery. For example the
admin that needs to drive a computer across town, the wife that
likes going to the rummage sales on the weekend, the janitor
who has to haul cleaning supplies to a building, the construction
foreman who goes to a couple job sites, and a smattering
of service guys who don't need to carry ladders or large tools.

Ted

 

Well, chaps, that's a timely note (about the Monaro). In last week's Sunday
Times, the UK's biggest selling quality Sunday paper, there was an item
about the Monaro and how it's going to become the Pontiac GTO.

Note that it was described as being of "old design, a relative of the Omega
saloon which disappeared from the price lists earlier this year...coming to
Britain [as] Vauxhall as a by-product of the decision to launch it in the
US...

"...GM sought a modern equivalent of its GTO and found this potent coupe
lurking at its Australian outpost. The Vauxhall Monaro will have the same
specs as the new GTO...5.7 litre engine V8... and six-speed manual gearbox
from the Chevrolet Corvette it is loud and fast (0 - 60 mph in 5.5 sec), yet
more civilised than its American predecessor, the Pontiac Firebird. At
present there is nothing quite like the Monaro available in Britain."

Price is GBP 32K for the 360 bhp LSI. The 320 bhp CV8 will cost about GBP
28 000.

"Coupes of equivalent size and performance are much more expensive --
....Merc CL and forthcoming BMW 6...Vauxhall led the UK car market with the
Corsa [note: a small car]. Whether it has raised its reputation enough to
sell a GPB 30K high-performance model remains to be seen."

Just in case you don't all know, Vauxhall is GM's brand. I wonder if it
will be launched on the Continent (as an Opel).

I guess the Monaro will sit in a separate market niche as Saab is supposed
to be up-market from Vauxhall/Opel. Saab cars are not that big though. The
most powerful engine is a 2.3 l turbo achieving 220 or 250 hp.


An additional point is in connection with criticisms elsewhere of designs
being 'pinched'. The big producers are global and would be foolish not to
pick designs from all over the place. That said, I am not sure that the US
companies 'pinch' enough from their overseas affiliates.


DAS
---
NB: To reply directly replace "nospam" with "schmetterling"
---
"rnf2" <rnf2@waikato.ac.nz> wrote in message
news:3f95ecc7@news.iconz.co.nz...
> The 5.7L V8 is the latest descendant of the mighty Chevy smallblock 350ci.
>
> they can be modified to over 1000 Hp and still be drivable streetlegal.
>
> the 3.8 started as a USA GM engine, but a factory was built in Aussie and
> R&D changed it, it doesn't interchange well with stock USA GM parts that
> well now, but theres plenty of support in Aussie for them. the 5L and 5.7L
> are stock Chevys from Chevs plants in the states. plenty of parts if they
> bring Holdens stateside.
>
> rhys
>
> "Aardwolf" <se1aard1@itis.com> wrote in message
> news:3F95EA40.41ED53E0@itis.com...
> >
> >
> > rnf2 wrote:
> >
> > > Built in Australia, sold in Australia and New Zealand and a few other
> RHD
> > > countries.
> > > Smallest engine in one is 3.8L V6, and goes up to a 5.7L V8. and even
> the
> > > 3.8 can tow 2000Kg, or 4000+ pounds, V8 is up to 3500Kg or so, 7000+
> pounds.
> > > www.holden.com.au and www.ford.com.au
> > > They're big cargo haulers, and very popular with farmers, very
reliable
> and
> > > can take some pretty harsh terrain and climate without flinching.
> > > very popular with farmers, and can carry 8 people in the station
wagons.
> > > with a big boot (trunk) still.
> > >
> > > Commador is the entry level car, then the higher specced Berlina and
the
> > > luxary Calais.
> > > then comes the SS, and HSV performance cars.
> > >
> > > rhys
> >
> > Also sold in mid east countries as Chevrolets with left hand drive--in
any
> case
> > they use totally U.S. drivetrains (engines/transmissions) and can easily
> pass
> > U.S. safety requirements as well. The new Pontiac GTO is a Holden
Monaro
> coupe
> > with different badges. Thanks in large part to union interference
GM-U.S.
> keeps
> > refusing to import any more mainline sedan models, but they'd doubtless
> eat all
> > of the domestic competition as it is now. They'd be 350-horsepower
family
> > sedans for as little as $20K U.S.
> >
> > The Commodore line and variants come with Corvette engines of up to 350
> > horsepower (or just over 400 for the HSV-modified versions) and can
still
> touch
> > 30mpg (U.S.) on the highway with a 6-speed overdrive--or they can be had
> with
> > smaller V6 powerplants. The long-wheelbase Statesman (mid east
"Chevrolet
> > Caprice") would be a superb replacement for the last U.S. models of that
> name,
> > almost exactly the same size and layout, but incrementally improved
> (newer, even
> > more powerful engines, independent rear suspension, etc.).
> >
> > I believe the top-line HSV GTS is already sold in the U.K. as a counter
to
> the
> > BMW E5, and rumors keep popping up that one of the higher line Commodore
> models
> > (Calais most likely) might be introduced there as a replacement for the
> last
> > rear drive Opel Omegas.
> >
> > --Aardwolf.
> >
>
>

 

Well, chaps, that's a timely note (about the Monaro). In last week's Sunday
Times, the UK's biggest selling quality Sunday paper, there was an item
about the Monaro and how it's going to become the Pontiac GTO.

Note that it was described as being of "old design, a relative of the Omega
saloon which disappeared from the price lists earlier this year...coming to
Britain [as] Vauxhall as a by-product of the decision to launch it in the
US...

"...GM sought a modern equivalent of its GTO and found this potent coupe
lurking at its Australian outpost. The Vauxhall Monaro will have the same
specs as the new GTO...5.7 litre engine V8... and six-speed manual gearbox
from the Chevrolet Corvette it is loud and fast (0 - 60 mph in 5.5 sec), yet
more civilised than its American predecessor, the Pontiac Firebird. At
present there is nothing quite like the Monaro available in Britain."

Price is GBP 32K for the 360 bhp LSI. The 320 bhp CV8 will cost about GBP
28 000.

"Coupes of equivalent size and performance are much more expensive --
....Merc CL and forthcoming BMW 6...Vauxhall led the UK car market with the
Corsa [note: a small car]. Whether it has raised its reputation enough to
sell a GPB 30K high-performance model remains to be seen."

Just in case you don't all know, Vauxhall is GM's brand. I wonder if it
will be launched on the Continent (as an Opel).

I guess the Monaro will sit in a separate market niche as Saab is supposed
to be up-market from Vauxhall/Opel. Saab cars are not that big though. The
most powerful engine is a 2.3 l turbo achieving 220 or 250 hp.


An additional point is in connection with criticisms elsewhere of designs
being 'pinched'. The big producers are global and would be foolish not to
pick designs from all over the place. That said, I am not sure that the US
companies 'pinch' enough from their overseas affiliates.


DAS
---
NB: To reply directly replace "nospam" with "schmetterling"
---
"rnf2" <rnf2@waikato.ac.nz> wrote in message
news:3f95ecc7@news.iconz.co.nz...
> The 5.7L V8 is the latest descendant of the mighty Chevy smallblock 350ci.
>
> they can be modified to over 1000 Hp and still be drivable streetlegal.
>
> the 3.8 started as a USA GM engine, but a factory was built in Aussie and
> R&D changed it, it doesn't interchange well with stock USA GM parts that
> well now, but theres plenty of support in Aussie for them. the 5L and 5.7L
> are stock Chevys from Chevs plants in the states. plenty of parts if they
> bring Holdens stateside.
>
> rhys
>
> "Aardwolf" <se1aard1@itis.com> wrote in message
> news:3F95EA40.41ED53E0@itis.com...
> >
> >
> > rnf2 wrote:
> >
> > > Built in Australia, sold in Australia and New Zealand and a few other
> RHD
> > > countries.
> > > Smallest engine in one is 3.8L V6, and goes up to a 5.7L V8. and even
> the
> > > 3.8 can tow 2000Kg, or 4000+ pounds, V8 is up to 3500Kg or so, 7000+
> pounds.
> > > www.holden.com.au and www.ford.com.au
> > > They're big cargo haulers, and very popular with farmers, very
reliable
> and
> > > can take some pretty harsh terrain and climate without flinching.
> > > very popular with farmers, and can carry 8 people in the station
wagons.
> > > with a big boot (trunk) still.
> > >
> > > Commador is the entry level car, then the higher specced Berlina and
the
> > > luxary Calais.
> > > then comes the SS, and HSV performance cars.
> > >
> > > rhys
> >
> > Also sold in mid east countries as Chevrolets with left hand drive--in
any
> case
> > they use totally U.S. drivetrains (engines/transmissions) and can easily
> pass
> > U.S. safety requirements as well. The new Pontiac GTO is a Holden
Monaro
> coupe
> > with different badges. Thanks in large part to union interference
GM-U.S.
> keeps
> > refusing to import any more mainline sedan models, but they'd doubtless
> eat all
> > of the domestic competition as it is now. They'd be 350-horsepower
family
> > sedans for as little as $20K U.S.
> >
> > The Commodore line and variants come with Corvette engines of up to 350
> > horsepower (or just over 400 for the HSV-modified versions) and can
still
> touch
> > 30mpg (U.S.) on the highway with a 6-speed overdrive--or they can be had
> with
> > smaller V6 powerplants. The long-wheelbase Statesman (mid east
"Chevrolet
> > Caprice") would be a superb replacement for the last U.S. models of that
> name,
> > almost exactly the same size and layout, but incrementally improved
> (newer, even
> > more powerful engines, independent rear suspension, etc.).
> >
> > I believe the top-line HSV GTS is already sold in the U.K. as a counter
to
> the
> > BMW E5, and rumors keep popping up that one of the higher line Commodore
> models
> > (Calais most likely) might be introduced there as a replacement for the
> last
> > rear drive Opel Omegas.
> >
> > --Aardwolf.
> >
>
>

 

Well, chaps, that's a timely note (about the Monaro). In last week's Sunday
Times, the UK's biggest selling quality Sunday paper, there was an item
about the Monaro and how it's going to become the Pontiac GTO.

Note that it was described as being of "old design, a relative of the Omega
saloon which disappeared from the price lists earlier this year...coming to
Britain [as] Vauxhall as a by-product of the decision to launch it in the
US...

"...GM sought a modern equivalent of its GTO and found this potent coupe
lurking at its Australian outpost. The Vauxhall Monaro will have the same
specs as the new GTO...5.7 litre engine V8... and six-speed manual gearbox
from the Chevrolet Corvette it is loud and fast (0 - 60 mph in 5.5 sec), yet
more civilised than its American predecessor, the Pontiac Firebird. At
present there is nothing quite like the Monaro available in Britain."

Price is GBP 32K for the 360 bhp LSI. The 320 bhp CV8 will cost about GBP
28 000.

"Coupes of equivalent size and performance are much more expensive --
....Merc CL and forthcoming BMW 6...Vauxhall led the UK car market with the
Corsa [note: a small car]. Whether it has raised its reputation enough to
sell a GPB 30K high-performance model remains to be seen."

Just in case you don't all know, Vauxhall is GM's brand. I wonder if it
will be launched on the Continent (as an Opel).

I guess the Monaro will sit in a separate market niche as Saab is supposed
to be up-market from Vauxhall/Opel. Saab cars are not that big though. The
most powerful engine is a 2.3 l turbo achieving 220 or 250 hp.


An additional point is in connection with criticisms elsewhere of designs
being 'pinched'. The big producers are global and would be foolish not to
pick designs from all over the place. That said, I am not sure that the US
companies 'pinch' enough from their overseas affiliates.


DAS
---
NB: To reply directly replace "nospam" with "schmetterling"
---
"rnf2" <rnf2@waikato.ac.nz> wrote in message
news:3f95ecc7@news.iconz.co.nz...
> The 5.7L V8 is the latest descendant of the mighty Chevy smallblock 350ci.
>
> they can be modified to over 1000 Hp and still be drivable streetlegal.
>
> the 3.8 started as a USA GM engine, but a factory was built in Aussie and
> R&D changed it, it doesn't interchange well with stock USA GM parts that
> well now, but theres plenty of support in Aussie for them. the 5L and 5.7L
> are stock Chevys from Chevs plants in the states. plenty of parts if they
> bring Holdens stateside.
>
> rhys
>
> "Aardwolf" <se1aard1@itis.com> wrote in message
> news:3F95EA40.41ED53E0@itis.com...
> >
> >
> > rnf2 wrote:
> >
> > > Built in Australia, sold in Australia and New Zealand and a few other
> RHD
> > > countries.
> > > Smallest engine in one is 3.8L V6, and goes up to a 5.7L V8. and even
> the
> > > 3.8 can tow 2000Kg, or 4000+ pounds, V8 is up to 3500Kg or so, 7000+
> pounds.
> > > www.holden.com.au and www.ford.com.au
> > > They're big cargo haulers, and very popular with farmers, very
reliable
> and
> > > can take some pretty harsh terrain and climate without flinching.
> > > very popular with farmers, and can carry 8 people in the station
wagons.
> > > with a big boot (trunk) still.
> > >
> > > Commador is the entry level car, then the higher specced Berlina and
the
> > > luxary Calais.
> > > then comes the SS, and HSV performance cars.
> > >
> > > rhys
> >
> > Also sold in mid east countries as Chevrolets with left hand drive--in
any
> case
> > they use totally U.S. drivetrains (engines/transmissions) and can easily
> pass
> > U.S. safety requirements as well. The new Pontiac GTO is a Holden
Monaro
> coupe
> > with different badges. Thanks in large part to union interference
GM-U.S.
> keeps
> > refusing to import any more mainline sedan models, but they'd doubtless
> eat all
> > of the domestic competition as it is now. They'd be 350-horsepower
family
> > sedans for as little as $20K U.S.
> >
> > The Commodore line and variants come with Corvette engines of up to 350
> > horsepower (or just over 400 for the HSV-modified versions) and can
still
> touch
> > 30mpg (U.S.) on the highway with a 6-speed overdrive--or they can be had
> with
> > smaller V6 powerplants. The long-wheelbase Statesman (mid east
"Chevrolet
> > Caprice") would be a superb replacement for the last U.S. models of that
> name,
> > almost exactly the same size and layout, but incrementally improved
> (newer, even
> > more powerful engines, independent rear suspension, etc.).
> >
> > I believe the top-line HSV GTS is already sold in the U.K. as a counter
to
> the
> > BMW E5, and rumors keep popping up that one of the higher line Commodore
> models
> > (Calais most likely) might be introduced there as a replacement for the
> last
> > rear drive Opel Omegas.
> >
> > --Aardwolf.
> >
>
>

 

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>
> "Bill Putney" <bputney@kinez.net> wrote in message
> news:3F95B9D9.CD0F4A5E@kinez.net...
> >
>
> > Gee - imagine that. Conservatives opposing the raising of taxes. How
> > unusual! Have you ever heard of such a thing!? To quote Mel Brooks:
> > "Wooof!".
> >
>
> Your the one that is bitching about allowing morons on the road
> because their children will be punished if they can't drive. Yet your
> now opposing one of the few mechanisms that we have to keep the
> morons off the road, which is making vehicle ownership more
> expensive? I guess you don't realize that most of the morons
> in the country don't happen to be that wealthy. (save the morons
> in the White House and Congress, of course)
>
> Ted

I did no such bitching. Re-read my post. There are quote marks around
the comments you are talking about - as in, that is what the liberals
would say if attempts were made to keep bad drivers off the roads
(paraphrasing the arguments they have made in the past about why
rewarding irresponsible people for pumping out babies, i.e., the career
welfare moms, had to continue). Some of your other comments in this
thread also make no sense in regards to anything I posted - maybe due to
the same mis-reading of what I posted.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

 

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>
> "Bill Putney" <bputney@kinez.net> wrote in message
> news:3F95B9D9.CD0F4A5E@kinez.net...
> >
>
> > Gee - imagine that. Conservatives opposing the raising of taxes. How
> > unusual! Have you ever heard of such a thing!? To quote Mel Brooks:
> > "Wooof!".
> >
>
> Your the one that is bitching about allowing morons on the road
> because their children will be punished if they can't drive. Yet your
> now opposing one of the few mechanisms that we have to keep the
> morons off the road, which is making vehicle ownership more
> expensive? I guess you don't realize that most of the morons
> in the country don't happen to be that wealthy. (save the morons
> in the White House and Congress, of course)
>
> Ted

I did no such bitching. Re-read my post. There are quote marks around
the comments you are talking about - as in, that is what the liberals
would say if attempts were made to keep bad drivers off the roads
(paraphrasing the arguments they have made in the past about why
rewarding irresponsible people for pumping out babies, i.e., the career
welfare moms, had to continue). Some of your other comments in this
thread also make no sense in regards to anything I posted - maybe due to
the same mis-reading of what I posted.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

 

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>
> "Bill Putney" <bputney@kinez.net> wrote in message
> news:3F95B9D9.CD0F4A5E@kinez.net...
> >
>
> > Gee - imagine that. Conservatives opposing the raising of taxes. How
> > unusual! Have you ever heard of such a thing!? To quote Mel Brooks:
> > "Wooof!".
> >
>
> Your the one that is bitching about allowing morons on the road
> because their children will be punished if they can't drive. Yet your
> now opposing one of the few mechanisms that we have to keep the
> morons off the road, which is making vehicle ownership more
> expensive? I guess you don't realize that most of the morons
> in the country don't happen to be that wealthy. (save the morons
> in the White House and Congress, of course)
>
> Ted

I did no such bitching. Re-read my post. There are quote marks around
the comments you are talking about - as in, that is what the liberals
would say if attempts were made to keep bad drivers off the roads
(paraphrasing the arguments they have made in the past about why
rewarding irresponsible people for pumping out babies, i.e., the career
welfare moms, had to continue). Some of your other comments in this
thread also make no sense in regards to anything I posted - maybe due to
the same mis-reading of what I posted.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

 

You need another product from the DC Group:

http://www.mercedes-benz.com/omb/d/e...u3000u4000.htm

DAS
--
---
NB: To reply directly replace "nospam" with "schmetterling"
---
"rnf2" <rnf2@waikato.ac.nz> wrote in message
news:3f95b10c@news.iconz.co.nz...
> Supermarket Warriors...
> i use mine to tow tons of metal around to ------ on the farm tracks, loads
> of timber that would bust an ecnonboxes sustpension, even if it fitted int
> he back, and heavy metal SCUBA cylinders and lead weights. an entire clubs
> collection, totalling over 600 Kg of tanks and weights made a neglegible
> difference in fuel consumption.
>
> rhys
.....................................

 

You need another product from the DC Group:

http://www.mercedes-benz.com/omb/d/e...u3000u4000.htm

DAS
--
---
NB: To reply directly replace "nospam" with "schmetterling"
---
"rnf2" <rnf2@waikato.ac.nz> wrote in message
news:3f95b10c@news.iconz.co.nz...
> Supermarket Warriors...
> i use mine to tow tons of metal around to ------ on the farm tracks, loads
> of timber that would bust an ecnonboxes sustpension, even if it fitted int
> he back, and heavy metal SCUBA cylinders and lead weights. an entire clubs
> collection, totalling over 600 Kg of tanks and weights made a neglegible
> difference in fuel consumption.
>
> rhys
.....................................

 

You need another product from the DC Group:

http://www.mercedes-benz.com/omb/d/e...u3000u4000.htm

DAS
--
---
NB: To reply directly replace "nospam" with "schmetterling"
---
"rnf2" <rnf2@waikato.ac.nz> wrote in message
news:3f95b10c@news.iconz.co.nz...
> Supermarket Warriors...
> i use mine to tow tons of metal around to ------ on the farm tracks, loads
> of timber that would bust an ecnonboxes sustpension, even if it fitted int
> he back, and heavy metal SCUBA cylinders and lead weights. an entire clubs
> collection, totalling over 600 Kg of tanks and weights made a neglegible
> difference in fuel consumption.
>
> rhys
.....................................