Close Call!
#281
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Close Call!
Spdloader wrote:
>
> What I reccommend is AFTER the fact. AFTER you lose control. I have said
> over and over again it was how to regain control, and it only takes a second
> to do. Is it dangerous? YES. Is it more dangerous than sliding sideways down
> an embankment towards a busy interstate, or towards a sheer cliff? NO.
> Even in the slide you suggested I try in a parking lot by using the
> emergency brake only. If you immediately slip the trans into neutral, you'll
> almost immediately gain DIRECTIONAL control of the vehicle.
> >
Sorry, but there is just the one big point you don't seem to grasp about
part time 4x4.... It 'locks' the front and rear axles together.
When the back wheels are locked by the emergency brake, the front wheels
'CANNOT' rotate!
When the front brakes are locked, the rear wheels 'CANNOT' rotate even
with the proportioning valve.
You can 'Not' regain control by using neutral in part time 4x4 because
the front and rear axles are locked together and one 'must' scuff which
loses traction.
If you are sliding down a hill sideways, you 'can' dump the shifter to 2
wheel drive and 'then' use neutral to attempt to regain directional
control.
You 'cannot' do this with the front and rear locked together unless you
get 'on' the gas to pull the front end around.
It is just physically impossible in part time 4x4.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> What I reccommend is AFTER the fact. AFTER you lose control. I have said
> over and over again it was how to regain control, and it only takes a second
> to do. Is it dangerous? YES. Is it more dangerous than sliding sideways down
> an embankment towards a busy interstate, or towards a sheer cliff? NO.
> Even in the slide you suggested I try in a parking lot by using the
> emergency brake only. If you immediately slip the trans into neutral, you'll
> almost immediately gain DIRECTIONAL control of the vehicle.
> >
Sorry, but there is just the one big point you don't seem to grasp about
part time 4x4.... It 'locks' the front and rear axles together.
When the back wheels are locked by the emergency brake, the front wheels
'CANNOT' rotate!
When the front brakes are locked, the rear wheels 'CANNOT' rotate even
with the proportioning valve.
You can 'Not' regain control by using neutral in part time 4x4 because
the front and rear axles are locked together and one 'must' scuff which
loses traction.
If you are sliding down a hill sideways, you 'can' dump the shifter to 2
wheel drive and 'then' use neutral to attempt to regain directional
control.
You 'cannot' do this with the front and rear locked together unless you
get 'on' the gas to pull the front end around.
It is just physically impossible in part time 4x4.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
#282
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Close Call!
Mike, I am a physicist (well I used to be) but I will be the first to admit
that a lot of this stuff you are talking about, cannot be described well in
precise physical terms. It just happens too darn fast. I would not
recommend trying to shift into two wheel drive when sliding out of control,
because it would take too long, and even then if you regain directional
control, there you are in two wheel drive with reduced traction. Getting on
the gas to point the vehicle downhill seems like the best bet, and I have
done it, but it's kind of scary.
I think that the main point to be gained from this thread, is that anyone
with aspirations of becoming a "four wheeler", whatever that means to you,
better practice on the easy stuff first.
Earle
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:44197463.CBFA0E46@sympatico.ca...
> Spdloader wrote:
> >
> > What I reccommend is AFTER the fact. AFTER you lose control. I have said
> > over and over again it was how to regain control, and it only takes a
second
> > to do. Is it dangerous? YES. Is it more dangerous than sliding sideways
down
> > an embankment towards a busy interstate, or towards a sheer cliff? NO.
> > Even in the slide you suggested I try in a parking lot by using the
> > emergency brake only. If you immediately slip the trans into neutral,
you'll
> > almost immediately gain DIRECTIONAL control of the vehicle.
> > >
>
> Sorry, but there is just the one big point you don't seem to grasp about
> part time 4x4.... It 'locks' the front and rear axles together.
>
> When the back wheels are locked by the emergency brake, the front wheels
> 'CANNOT' rotate!
>
> When the front brakes are locked, the rear wheels 'CANNOT' rotate even
> with the proportioning valve.
>
> You can 'Not' regain control by using neutral in part time 4x4 because
> the front and rear axles are locked together and one 'must' scuff which
> loses traction.
>
> If you are sliding down a hill sideways, you 'can' dump the shifter to 2
> wheel drive and 'then' use neutral to attempt to regain directional
> control.
>
> You 'cannot' do this with the front and rear locked together unless you
> get 'on' the gas to pull the front end around.
>
> It is just physically impossible in part time 4x4.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***
that a lot of this stuff you are talking about, cannot be described well in
precise physical terms. It just happens too darn fast. I would not
recommend trying to shift into two wheel drive when sliding out of control,
because it would take too long, and even then if you regain directional
control, there you are in two wheel drive with reduced traction. Getting on
the gas to point the vehicle downhill seems like the best bet, and I have
done it, but it's kind of scary.
I think that the main point to be gained from this thread, is that anyone
with aspirations of becoming a "four wheeler", whatever that means to you,
better practice on the easy stuff first.
Earle
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:44197463.CBFA0E46@sympatico.ca...
> Spdloader wrote:
> >
> > What I reccommend is AFTER the fact. AFTER you lose control. I have said
> > over and over again it was how to regain control, and it only takes a
second
> > to do. Is it dangerous? YES. Is it more dangerous than sliding sideways
down
> > an embankment towards a busy interstate, or towards a sheer cliff? NO.
> > Even in the slide you suggested I try in a parking lot by using the
> > emergency brake only. If you immediately slip the trans into neutral,
you'll
> > almost immediately gain DIRECTIONAL control of the vehicle.
> > >
>
> Sorry, but there is just the one big point you don't seem to grasp about
> part time 4x4.... It 'locks' the front and rear axles together.
>
> When the back wheels are locked by the emergency brake, the front wheels
> 'CANNOT' rotate!
>
> When the front brakes are locked, the rear wheels 'CANNOT' rotate even
> with the proportioning valve.
>
> You can 'Not' regain control by using neutral in part time 4x4 because
> the front and rear axles are locked together and one 'must' scuff which
> loses traction.
>
> If you are sliding down a hill sideways, you 'can' dump the shifter to 2
> wheel drive and 'then' use neutral to attempt to regain directional
> control.
>
> You 'cannot' do this with the front and rear locked together unless you
> get 'on' the gas to pull the front end around.
>
> It is just physically impossible in part time 4x4.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
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#283
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Close Call!
Mike, I am a physicist (well I used to be) but I will be the first to admit
that a lot of this stuff you are talking about, cannot be described well in
precise physical terms. It just happens too darn fast. I would not
recommend trying to shift into two wheel drive when sliding out of control,
because it would take too long, and even then if you regain directional
control, there you are in two wheel drive with reduced traction. Getting on
the gas to point the vehicle downhill seems like the best bet, and I have
done it, but it's kind of scary.
I think that the main point to be gained from this thread, is that anyone
with aspirations of becoming a "four wheeler", whatever that means to you,
better practice on the easy stuff first.
Earle
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:44197463.CBFA0E46@sympatico.ca...
> Spdloader wrote:
> >
> > What I reccommend is AFTER the fact. AFTER you lose control. I have said
> > over and over again it was how to regain control, and it only takes a
second
> > to do. Is it dangerous? YES. Is it more dangerous than sliding sideways
down
> > an embankment towards a busy interstate, or towards a sheer cliff? NO.
> > Even in the slide you suggested I try in a parking lot by using the
> > emergency brake only. If you immediately slip the trans into neutral,
you'll
> > almost immediately gain DIRECTIONAL control of the vehicle.
> > >
>
> Sorry, but there is just the one big point you don't seem to grasp about
> part time 4x4.... It 'locks' the front and rear axles together.
>
> When the back wheels are locked by the emergency brake, the front wheels
> 'CANNOT' rotate!
>
> When the front brakes are locked, the rear wheels 'CANNOT' rotate even
> with the proportioning valve.
>
> You can 'Not' regain control by using neutral in part time 4x4 because
> the front and rear axles are locked together and one 'must' scuff which
> loses traction.
>
> If you are sliding down a hill sideways, you 'can' dump the shifter to 2
> wheel drive and 'then' use neutral to attempt to regain directional
> control.
>
> You 'cannot' do this with the front and rear locked together unless you
> get 'on' the gas to pull the front end around.
>
> It is just physically impossible in part time 4x4.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***
that a lot of this stuff you are talking about, cannot be described well in
precise physical terms. It just happens too darn fast. I would not
recommend trying to shift into two wheel drive when sliding out of control,
because it would take too long, and even then if you regain directional
control, there you are in two wheel drive with reduced traction. Getting on
the gas to point the vehicle downhill seems like the best bet, and I have
done it, but it's kind of scary.
I think that the main point to be gained from this thread, is that anyone
with aspirations of becoming a "four wheeler", whatever that means to you,
better practice on the easy stuff first.
Earle
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:44197463.CBFA0E46@sympatico.ca...
> Spdloader wrote:
> >
> > What I reccommend is AFTER the fact. AFTER you lose control. I have said
> > over and over again it was how to regain control, and it only takes a
second
> > to do. Is it dangerous? YES. Is it more dangerous than sliding sideways
down
> > an embankment towards a busy interstate, or towards a sheer cliff? NO.
> > Even in the slide you suggested I try in a parking lot by using the
> > emergency brake only. If you immediately slip the trans into neutral,
you'll
> > almost immediately gain DIRECTIONAL control of the vehicle.
> > >
>
> Sorry, but there is just the one big point you don't seem to grasp about
> part time 4x4.... It 'locks' the front and rear axles together.
>
> When the back wheels are locked by the emergency brake, the front wheels
> 'CANNOT' rotate!
>
> When the front brakes are locked, the rear wheels 'CANNOT' rotate even
> with the proportioning valve.
>
> You can 'Not' regain control by using neutral in part time 4x4 because
> the front and rear axles are locked together and one 'must' scuff which
> loses traction.
>
> If you are sliding down a hill sideways, you 'can' dump the shifter to 2
> wheel drive and 'then' use neutral to attempt to regain directional
> control.
>
> You 'cannot' do this with the front and rear locked together unless you
> get 'on' the gas to pull the front end around.
>
> It is just physically impossible in part time 4x4.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***
#284
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Close Call!
Mike, I am a physicist (well I used to be) but I will be the first to admit
that a lot of this stuff you are talking about, cannot be described well in
precise physical terms. It just happens too darn fast. I would not
recommend trying to shift into two wheel drive when sliding out of control,
because it would take too long, and even then if you regain directional
control, there you are in two wheel drive with reduced traction. Getting on
the gas to point the vehicle downhill seems like the best bet, and I have
done it, but it's kind of scary.
I think that the main point to be gained from this thread, is that anyone
with aspirations of becoming a "four wheeler", whatever that means to you,
better practice on the easy stuff first.
Earle
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:44197463.CBFA0E46@sympatico.ca...
> Spdloader wrote:
> >
> > What I reccommend is AFTER the fact. AFTER you lose control. I have said
> > over and over again it was how to regain control, and it only takes a
second
> > to do. Is it dangerous? YES. Is it more dangerous than sliding sideways
down
> > an embankment towards a busy interstate, or towards a sheer cliff? NO.
> > Even in the slide you suggested I try in a parking lot by using the
> > emergency brake only. If you immediately slip the trans into neutral,
you'll
> > almost immediately gain DIRECTIONAL control of the vehicle.
> > >
>
> Sorry, but there is just the one big point you don't seem to grasp about
> part time 4x4.... It 'locks' the front and rear axles together.
>
> When the back wheels are locked by the emergency brake, the front wheels
> 'CANNOT' rotate!
>
> When the front brakes are locked, the rear wheels 'CANNOT' rotate even
> with the proportioning valve.
>
> You can 'Not' regain control by using neutral in part time 4x4 because
> the front and rear axles are locked together and one 'must' scuff which
> loses traction.
>
> If you are sliding down a hill sideways, you 'can' dump the shifter to 2
> wheel drive and 'then' use neutral to attempt to regain directional
> control.
>
> You 'cannot' do this with the front and rear locked together unless you
> get 'on' the gas to pull the front end around.
>
> It is just physically impossible in part time 4x4.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***
that a lot of this stuff you are talking about, cannot be described well in
precise physical terms. It just happens too darn fast. I would not
recommend trying to shift into two wheel drive when sliding out of control,
because it would take too long, and even then if you regain directional
control, there you are in two wheel drive with reduced traction. Getting on
the gas to point the vehicle downhill seems like the best bet, and I have
done it, but it's kind of scary.
I think that the main point to be gained from this thread, is that anyone
with aspirations of becoming a "four wheeler", whatever that means to you,
better practice on the easy stuff first.
Earle
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:44197463.CBFA0E46@sympatico.ca...
> Spdloader wrote:
> >
> > What I reccommend is AFTER the fact. AFTER you lose control. I have said
> > over and over again it was how to regain control, and it only takes a
second
> > to do. Is it dangerous? YES. Is it more dangerous than sliding sideways
down
> > an embankment towards a busy interstate, or towards a sheer cliff? NO.
> > Even in the slide you suggested I try in a parking lot by using the
> > emergency brake only. If you immediately slip the trans into neutral,
you'll
> > almost immediately gain DIRECTIONAL control of the vehicle.
> > >
>
> Sorry, but there is just the one big point you don't seem to grasp about
> part time 4x4.... It 'locks' the front and rear axles together.
>
> When the back wheels are locked by the emergency brake, the front wheels
> 'CANNOT' rotate!
>
> When the front brakes are locked, the rear wheels 'CANNOT' rotate even
> with the proportioning valve.
>
> You can 'Not' regain control by using neutral in part time 4x4 because
> the front and rear axles are locked together and one 'must' scuff which
> loses traction.
>
> If you are sliding down a hill sideways, you 'can' dump the shifter to 2
> wheel drive and 'then' use neutral to attempt to regain directional
> control.
>
> You 'cannot' do this with the front and rear locked together unless you
> get 'on' the gas to pull the front end around.
>
> It is just physically impossible in part time 4x4.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***
#285
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Close Call!
Mike, I am a physicist (well I used to be) but I will be the first to admit
that a lot of this stuff you are talking about, cannot be described well in
precise physical terms. It just happens too darn fast. I would not
recommend trying to shift into two wheel drive when sliding out of control,
because it would take too long, and even then if you regain directional
control, there you are in two wheel drive with reduced traction. Getting on
the gas to point the vehicle downhill seems like the best bet, and I have
done it, but it's kind of scary.
I think that the main point to be gained from this thread, is that anyone
with aspirations of becoming a "four wheeler", whatever that means to you,
better practice on the easy stuff first.
Earle
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:44197463.CBFA0E46@sympatico.ca...
> Spdloader wrote:
> >
> > What I reccommend is AFTER the fact. AFTER you lose control. I have said
> > over and over again it was how to regain control, and it only takes a
second
> > to do. Is it dangerous? YES. Is it more dangerous than sliding sideways
down
> > an embankment towards a busy interstate, or towards a sheer cliff? NO.
> > Even in the slide you suggested I try in a parking lot by using the
> > emergency brake only. If you immediately slip the trans into neutral,
you'll
> > almost immediately gain DIRECTIONAL control of the vehicle.
> > >
>
> Sorry, but there is just the one big point you don't seem to grasp about
> part time 4x4.... It 'locks' the front and rear axles together.
>
> When the back wheels are locked by the emergency brake, the front wheels
> 'CANNOT' rotate!
>
> When the front brakes are locked, the rear wheels 'CANNOT' rotate even
> with the proportioning valve.
>
> You can 'Not' regain control by using neutral in part time 4x4 because
> the front and rear axles are locked together and one 'must' scuff which
> loses traction.
>
> If you are sliding down a hill sideways, you 'can' dump the shifter to 2
> wheel drive and 'then' use neutral to attempt to regain directional
> control.
>
> You 'cannot' do this with the front and rear locked together unless you
> get 'on' the gas to pull the front end around.
>
> It is just physically impossible in part time 4x4.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***
that a lot of this stuff you are talking about, cannot be described well in
precise physical terms. It just happens too darn fast. I would not
recommend trying to shift into two wheel drive when sliding out of control,
because it would take too long, and even then if you regain directional
control, there you are in two wheel drive with reduced traction. Getting on
the gas to point the vehicle downhill seems like the best bet, and I have
done it, but it's kind of scary.
I think that the main point to be gained from this thread, is that anyone
with aspirations of becoming a "four wheeler", whatever that means to you,
better practice on the easy stuff first.
Earle
"Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:44197463.CBFA0E46@sympatico.ca...
> Spdloader wrote:
> >
> > What I reccommend is AFTER the fact. AFTER you lose control. I have said
> > over and over again it was how to regain control, and it only takes a
second
> > to do. Is it dangerous? YES. Is it more dangerous than sliding sideways
down
> > an embankment towards a busy interstate, or towards a sheer cliff? NO.
> > Even in the slide you suggested I try in a parking lot by using the
> > emergency brake only. If you immediately slip the trans into neutral,
you'll
> > almost immediately gain DIRECTIONAL control of the vehicle.
> > >
>
> Sorry, but there is just the one big point you don't seem to grasp about
> part time 4x4.... It 'locks' the front and rear axles together.
>
> When the back wheels are locked by the emergency brake, the front wheels
> 'CANNOT' rotate!
>
> When the front brakes are locked, the rear wheels 'CANNOT' rotate even
> with the proportioning valve.
>
> You can 'Not' regain control by using neutral in part time 4x4 because
> the front and rear axles are locked together and one 'must' scuff which
> loses traction.
>
> If you are sliding down a hill sideways, you 'can' dump the shifter to 2
> wheel drive and 'then' use neutral to attempt to regain directional
> control.
>
> You 'cannot' do this with the front and rear locked together unless you
> get 'on' the gas to pull the front end around.
>
> It is just physically impossible in part time 4x4.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***
#286
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Close Call!
I guess I have to go back on my promise to drop it.
> Sorry, but there is just the one big point you don't seem to grasp about
> part time 4x4.... It 'locks' the front and rear axles together.
It's not about me grasping anything, it's real world training and
experience. It works. I fully understand how 4WD works. I was only a cop
for 9 years, but was a mechanic for about 15. Steering, suspension, brakes,
4WD, electrical, HVAC, etc.
>
> When the back wheels are locked by the emergency brake, the front wheels
> 'CANNOT' rotate!
Surely you don't think I meant to leave the brake locked on while shifting
to neutral, do you? I assume we're still talking about the parking lot
scenario.+
Release the ebrake, shift to neutral, steer towards the slide, control
regained, back into gear and off you go.
>
> When the front brakes are locked, the rear wheels 'CANNOT' rotate even
> with the proportioning valve.
Thats true, when the brake pedal is pressed, the proportioning valve directs
incoming pressure from the master cylinder to the rear first, then pressure
builds, activating the front brakes, unless in a dual-diagonal system, (old
GM) but not used on Jeep. This all happens in milliseconds. So, if the front
brakes are locked, the rear were first.
> You can 'Not' regain control by using neutral in part time 4x4 because
> the front and rear axles are locked together and one 'must' scuff which
> loses traction.
Works everytime without fail.
>
>
> It is just physically impossible in part time 4x4.
Then I've been witnessing a miracle for 26 years.
Here's my actual scenario:
You are going downhill, a very steep off camber downhill, in gear, and the
vehicle starts to slide sideways. At the bottom of the hill, let's say 50yds
there is a 90deg turn with an intersection and a stop sign. With only enough
pressure on the brakes to keep them from locking up, quickly shift to
neutral, the vehicle will straighten up whether in 4WD or not. You will
regain directional control.
I'm not arguing theory or anything that looks good on paper, I'm saying what
actually happens.
Do you not see that we are describing nearly the same thing, only without
the accelerating part?
If instead, you leave the vehicle in gear and accelerate, you will ALSO
regain directional control, but now you are going faster because you
accelerated, and it works great if you don't have an obstacle at the bottom
of the hill, but in this case you do. How are you going to stop?
I don't suggest trying my suggestion if you don't have the skills to do it.
Instead, go ahead into the tree, into the ditch, or off the embankment.
(Obvious insult returned, I owed you one)
Spdloader
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
> Sorry, but there is just the one big point you don't seem to grasp about
> part time 4x4.... It 'locks' the front and rear axles together.
It's not about me grasping anything, it's real world training and
experience. It works. I fully understand how 4WD works. I was only a cop
for 9 years, but was a mechanic for about 15. Steering, suspension, brakes,
4WD, electrical, HVAC, etc.
>
> When the back wheels are locked by the emergency brake, the front wheels
> 'CANNOT' rotate!
Surely you don't think I meant to leave the brake locked on while shifting
to neutral, do you? I assume we're still talking about the parking lot
scenario.+
Release the ebrake, shift to neutral, steer towards the slide, control
regained, back into gear and off you go.
>
> When the front brakes are locked, the rear wheels 'CANNOT' rotate even
> with the proportioning valve.
Thats true, when the brake pedal is pressed, the proportioning valve directs
incoming pressure from the master cylinder to the rear first, then pressure
builds, activating the front brakes, unless in a dual-diagonal system, (old
GM) but not used on Jeep. This all happens in milliseconds. So, if the front
brakes are locked, the rear were first.
> You can 'Not' regain control by using neutral in part time 4x4 because
> the front and rear axles are locked together and one 'must' scuff which
> loses traction.
Works everytime without fail.
>
>
> It is just physically impossible in part time 4x4.
Then I've been witnessing a miracle for 26 years.
Here's my actual scenario:
You are going downhill, a very steep off camber downhill, in gear, and the
vehicle starts to slide sideways. At the bottom of the hill, let's say 50yds
there is a 90deg turn with an intersection and a stop sign. With only enough
pressure on the brakes to keep them from locking up, quickly shift to
neutral, the vehicle will straighten up whether in 4WD or not. You will
regain directional control.
I'm not arguing theory or anything that looks good on paper, I'm saying what
actually happens.
Do you not see that we are describing nearly the same thing, only without
the accelerating part?
If instead, you leave the vehicle in gear and accelerate, you will ALSO
regain directional control, but now you are going faster because you
accelerated, and it works great if you don't have an obstacle at the bottom
of the hill, but in this case you do. How are you going to stop?
I don't suggest trying my suggestion if you don't have the skills to do it.
Instead, go ahead into the tree, into the ditch, or off the embankment.
(Obvious insult returned, I owed you one)
Spdloader
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
#287
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Close Call!
I guess I have to go back on my promise to drop it.
> Sorry, but there is just the one big point you don't seem to grasp about
> part time 4x4.... It 'locks' the front and rear axles together.
It's not about me grasping anything, it's real world training and
experience. It works. I fully understand how 4WD works. I was only a cop
for 9 years, but was a mechanic for about 15. Steering, suspension, brakes,
4WD, electrical, HVAC, etc.
>
> When the back wheels are locked by the emergency brake, the front wheels
> 'CANNOT' rotate!
Surely you don't think I meant to leave the brake locked on while shifting
to neutral, do you? I assume we're still talking about the parking lot
scenario.+
Release the ebrake, shift to neutral, steer towards the slide, control
regained, back into gear and off you go.
>
> When the front brakes are locked, the rear wheels 'CANNOT' rotate even
> with the proportioning valve.
Thats true, when the brake pedal is pressed, the proportioning valve directs
incoming pressure from the master cylinder to the rear first, then pressure
builds, activating the front brakes, unless in a dual-diagonal system, (old
GM) but not used on Jeep. This all happens in milliseconds. So, if the front
brakes are locked, the rear were first.
> You can 'Not' regain control by using neutral in part time 4x4 because
> the front and rear axles are locked together and one 'must' scuff which
> loses traction.
Works everytime without fail.
>
>
> It is just physically impossible in part time 4x4.
Then I've been witnessing a miracle for 26 years.
Here's my actual scenario:
You are going downhill, a very steep off camber downhill, in gear, and the
vehicle starts to slide sideways. At the bottom of the hill, let's say 50yds
there is a 90deg turn with an intersection and a stop sign. With only enough
pressure on the brakes to keep them from locking up, quickly shift to
neutral, the vehicle will straighten up whether in 4WD or not. You will
regain directional control.
I'm not arguing theory or anything that looks good on paper, I'm saying what
actually happens.
Do you not see that we are describing nearly the same thing, only without
the accelerating part?
If instead, you leave the vehicle in gear and accelerate, you will ALSO
regain directional control, but now you are going faster because you
accelerated, and it works great if you don't have an obstacle at the bottom
of the hill, but in this case you do. How are you going to stop?
I don't suggest trying my suggestion if you don't have the skills to do it.
Instead, go ahead into the tree, into the ditch, or off the embankment.
(Obvious insult returned, I owed you one)
Spdloader
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
> Sorry, but there is just the one big point you don't seem to grasp about
> part time 4x4.... It 'locks' the front and rear axles together.
It's not about me grasping anything, it's real world training and
experience. It works. I fully understand how 4WD works. I was only a cop
for 9 years, but was a mechanic for about 15. Steering, suspension, brakes,
4WD, electrical, HVAC, etc.
>
> When the back wheels are locked by the emergency brake, the front wheels
> 'CANNOT' rotate!
Surely you don't think I meant to leave the brake locked on while shifting
to neutral, do you? I assume we're still talking about the parking lot
scenario.+
Release the ebrake, shift to neutral, steer towards the slide, control
regained, back into gear and off you go.
>
> When the front brakes are locked, the rear wheels 'CANNOT' rotate even
> with the proportioning valve.
Thats true, when the brake pedal is pressed, the proportioning valve directs
incoming pressure from the master cylinder to the rear first, then pressure
builds, activating the front brakes, unless in a dual-diagonal system, (old
GM) but not used on Jeep. This all happens in milliseconds. So, if the front
brakes are locked, the rear were first.
> You can 'Not' regain control by using neutral in part time 4x4 because
> the front and rear axles are locked together and one 'must' scuff which
> loses traction.
Works everytime without fail.
>
>
> It is just physically impossible in part time 4x4.
Then I've been witnessing a miracle for 26 years.
Here's my actual scenario:
You are going downhill, a very steep off camber downhill, in gear, and the
vehicle starts to slide sideways. At the bottom of the hill, let's say 50yds
there is a 90deg turn with an intersection and a stop sign. With only enough
pressure on the brakes to keep them from locking up, quickly shift to
neutral, the vehicle will straighten up whether in 4WD or not. You will
regain directional control.
I'm not arguing theory or anything that looks good on paper, I'm saying what
actually happens.
Do you not see that we are describing nearly the same thing, only without
the accelerating part?
If instead, you leave the vehicle in gear and accelerate, you will ALSO
regain directional control, but now you are going faster because you
accelerated, and it works great if you don't have an obstacle at the bottom
of the hill, but in this case you do. How are you going to stop?
I don't suggest trying my suggestion if you don't have the skills to do it.
Instead, go ahead into the tree, into the ditch, or off the embankment.
(Obvious insult returned, I owed you one)
Spdloader
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
#288
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Close Call!
I guess I have to go back on my promise to drop it.
> Sorry, but there is just the one big point you don't seem to grasp about
> part time 4x4.... It 'locks' the front and rear axles together.
It's not about me grasping anything, it's real world training and
experience. It works. I fully understand how 4WD works. I was only a cop
for 9 years, but was a mechanic for about 15. Steering, suspension, brakes,
4WD, electrical, HVAC, etc.
>
> When the back wheels are locked by the emergency brake, the front wheels
> 'CANNOT' rotate!
Surely you don't think I meant to leave the brake locked on while shifting
to neutral, do you? I assume we're still talking about the parking lot
scenario.+
Release the ebrake, shift to neutral, steer towards the slide, control
regained, back into gear and off you go.
>
> When the front brakes are locked, the rear wheels 'CANNOT' rotate even
> with the proportioning valve.
Thats true, when the brake pedal is pressed, the proportioning valve directs
incoming pressure from the master cylinder to the rear first, then pressure
builds, activating the front brakes, unless in a dual-diagonal system, (old
GM) but not used on Jeep. This all happens in milliseconds. So, if the front
brakes are locked, the rear were first.
> You can 'Not' regain control by using neutral in part time 4x4 because
> the front and rear axles are locked together and one 'must' scuff which
> loses traction.
Works everytime without fail.
>
>
> It is just physically impossible in part time 4x4.
Then I've been witnessing a miracle for 26 years.
Here's my actual scenario:
You are going downhill, a very steep off camber downhill, in gear, and the
vehicle starts to slide sideways. At the bottom of the hill, let's say 50yds
there is a 90deg turn with an intersection and a stop sign. With only enough
pressure on the brakes to keep them from locking up, quickly shift to
neutral, the vehicle will straighten up whether in 4WD or not. You will
regain directional control.
I'm not arguing theory or anything that looks good on paper, I'm saying what
actually happens.
Do you not see that we are describing nearly the same thing, only without
the accelerating part?
If instead, you leave the vehicle in gear and accelerate, you will ALSO
regain directional control, but now you are going faster because you
accelerated, and it works great if you don't have an obstacle at the bottom
of the hill, but in this case you do. How are you going to stop?
I don't suggest trying my suggestion if you don't have the skills to do it.
Instead, go ahead into the tree, into the ditch, or off the embankment.
(Obvious insult returned, I owed you one)
Spdloader
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
> Sorry, but there is just the one big point you don't seem to grasp about
> part time 4x4.... It 'locks' the front and rear axles together.
It's not about me grasping anything, it's real world training and
experience. It works. I fully understand how 4WD works. I was only a cop
for 9 years, but was a mechanic for about 15. Steering, suspension, brakes,
4WD, electrical, HVAC, etc.
>
> When the back wheels are locked by the emergency brake, the front wheels
> 'CANNOT' rotate!
Surely you don't think I meant to leave the brake locked on while shifting
to neutral, do you? I assume we're still talking about the parking lot
scenario.+
Release the ebrake, shift to neutral, steer towards the slide, control
regained, back into gear and off you go.
>
> When the front brakes are locked, the rear wheels 'CANNOT' rotate even
> with the proportioning valve.
Thats true, when the brake pedal is pressed, the proportioning valve directs
incoming pressure from the master cylinder to the rear first, then pressure
builds, activating the front brakes, unless in a dual-diagonal system, (old
GM) but not used on Jeep. This all happens in milliseconds. So, if the front
brakes are locked, the rear were first.
> You can 'Not' regain control by using neutral in part time 4x4 because
> the front and rear axles are locked together and one 'must' scuff which
> loses traction.
Works everytime without fail.
>
>
> It is just physically impossible in part time 4x4.
Then I've been witnessing a miracle for 26 years.
Here's my actual scenario:
You are going downhill, a very steep off camber downhill, in gear, and the
vehicle starts to slide sideways. At the bottom of the hill, let's say 50yds
there is a 90deg turn with an intersection and a stop sign. With only enough
pressure on the brakes to keep them from locking up, quickly shift to
neutral, the vehicle will straighten up whether in 4WD or not. You will
regain directional control.
I'm not arguing theory or anything that looks good on paper, I'm saying what
actually happens.
Do you not see that we are describing nearly the same thing, only without
the accelerating part?
If instead, you leave the vehicle in gear and accelerate, you will ALSO
regain directional control, but now you are going faster because you
accelerated, and it works great if you don't have an obstacle at the bottom
of the hill, but in this case you do. How are you going to stop?
I don't suggest trying my suggestion if you don't have the skills to do it.
Instead, go ahead into the tree, into the ditch, or off the embankment.
(Obvious insult returned, I owed you one)
Spdloader
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
#289
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Close Call!
I guess I have to go back on my promise to drop it.
> Sorry, but there is just the one big point you don't seem to grasp about
> part time 4x4.... It 'locks' the front and rear axles together.
It's not about me grasping anything, it's real world training and
experience. It works. I fully understand how 4WD works. I was only a cop
for 9 years, but was a mechanic for about 15. Steering, suspension, brakes,
4WD, electrical, HVAC, etc.
>
> When the back wheels are locked by the emergency brake, the front wheels
> 'CANNOT' rotate!
Surely you don't think I meant to leave the brake locked on while shifting
to neutral, do you? I assume we're still talking about the parking lot
scenario.+
Release the ebrake, shift to neutral, steer towards the slide, control
regained, back into gear and off you go.
>
> When the front brakes are locked, the rear wheels 'CANNOT' rotate even
> with the proportioning valve.
Thats true, when the brake pedal is pressed, the proportioning valve directs
incoming pressure from the master cylinder to the rear first, then pressure
builds, activating the front brakes, unless in a dual-diagonal system, (old
GM) but not used on Jeep. This all happens in milliseconds. So, if the front
brakes are locked, the rear were first.
> You can 'Not' regain control by using neutral in part time 4x4 because
> the front and rear axles are locked together and one 'must' scuff which
> loses traction.
Works everytime without fail.
>
>
> It is just physically impossible in part time 4x4.
Then I've been witnessing a miracle for 26 years.
Here's my actual scenario:
You are going downhill, a very steep off camber downhill, in gear, and the
vehicle starts to slide sideways. At the bottom of the hill, let's say 50yds
there is a 90deg turn with an intersection and a stop sign. With only enough
pressure on the brakes to keep them from locking up, quickly shift to
neutral, the vehicle will straighten up whether in 4WD or not. You will
regain directional control.
I'm not arguing theory or anything that looks good on paper, I'm saying what
actually happens.
Do you not see that we are describing nearly the same thing, only without
the accelerating part?
If instead, you leave the vehicle in gear and accelerate, you will ALSO
regain directional control, but now you are going faster because you
accelerated, and it works great if you don't have an obstacle at the bottom
of the hill, but in this case you do. How are you going to stop?
I don't suggest trying my suggestion if you don't have the skills to do it.
Instead, go ahead into the tree, into the ditch, or off the embankment.
(Obvious insult returned, I owed you one)
Spdloader
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
> Sorry, but there is just the one big point you don't seem to grasp about
> part time 4x4.... It 'locks' the front and rear axles together.
It's not about me grasping anything, it's real world training and
experience. It works. I fully understand how 4WD works. I was only a cop
for 9 years, but was a mechanic for about 15. Steering, suspension, brakes,
4WD, electrical, HVAC, etc.
>
> When the back wheels are locked by the emergency brake, the front wheels
> 'CANNOT' rotate!
Surely you don't think I meant to leave the brake locked on while shifting
to neutral, do you? I assume we're still talking about the parking lot
scenario.+
Release the ebrake, shift to neutral, steer towards the slide, control
regained, back into gear and off you go.
>
> When the front brakes are locked, the rear wheels 'CANNOT' rotate even
> with the proportioning valve.
Thats true, when the brake pedal is pressed, the proportioning valve directs
incoming pressure from the master cylinder to the rear first, then pressure
builds, activating the front brakes, unless in a dual-diagonal system, (old
GM) but not used on Jeep. This all happens in milliseconds. So, if the front
brakes are locked, the rear were first.
> You can 'Not' regain control by using neutral in part time 4x4 because
> the front and rear axles are locked together and one 'must' scuff which
> loses traction.
Works everytime without fail.
>
>
> It is just physically impossible in part time 4x4.
Then I've been witnessing a miracle for 26 years.
Here's my actual scenario:
You are going downhill, a very steep off camber downhill, in gear, and the
vehicle starts to slide sideways. At the bottom of the hill, let's say 50yds
there is a 90deg turn with an intersection and a stop sign. With only enough
pressure on the brakes to keep them from locking up, quickly shift to
neutral, the vehicle will straighten up whether in 4WD or not. You will
regain directional control.
I'm not arguing theory or anything that looks good on paper, I'm saying what
actually happens.
Do you not see that we are describing nearly the same thing, only without
the accelerating part?
If instead, you leave the vehicle in gear and accelerate, you will ALSO
regain directional control, but now you are going faster because you
accelerated, and it works great if you don't have an obstacle at the bottom
of the hill, but in this case you do. How are you going to stop?
I don't suggest trying my suggestion if you don't have the skills to do it.
Instead, go ahead into the tree, into the ditch, or off the embankment.
(Obvious insult returned, I owed you one)
Spdloader
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
#290
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Close Call!
Enough already! :-)
The only real good advice for this thread is:
Before embarking into a dangerous icy snowy hilly area,
ensure you have the proper traction devices, like studded tires
or chains. Without those items, means DO NOT GO.
It's best to use common sense here.
P.S No insults are intended.
Cheers
:-)
Spdloader wrote:
> I guess I have to go back on my promise to drop it.
>
>
>>Sorry, but there is just the one big point you don't seem to grasp about
>>part time 4x4.... It 'locks' the front and rear axles together.
>
>
> It's not about me grasping anything, it's real world training and
> experience. It works. I fully understand how 4WD works. I was only a cop
> for 9 years, but was a mechanic for about 15. Steering, suspension, brakes,
> 4WD, electrical, HVAC, etc.
>
>>When the back wheels are locked by the emergency brake, the front wheels
>>'CANNOT' rotate!
>
>
> Surely you don't think I meant to leave the brake locked on while shifting
> to neutral, do you? I assume we're still talking about the parking lot
> scenario.+
> Release the ebrake, shift to neutral, steer towards the slide, control
> regained, back into gear and off you go.
>
>
>>When the front brakes are locked, the rear wheels 'CANNOT' rotate even
>>with the proportioning valve.
>
>
> Thats true, when the brake pedal is pressed, the proportioning valve directs
> incoming pressure from the master cylinder to the rear first, then pressure
> builds, activating the front brakes, unless in a dual-diagonal system, (old
> GM) but not used on Jeep. This all happens in milliseconds. So, if the front
> brakes are locked, the rear were first.
>
>
>>You can 'Not' regain control by using neutral in part time 4x4 because
>>the front and rear axles are locked together and one 'must' scuff which
>>loses traction.
>
>
> Works everytime without fail.
>
>>
>>It is just physically impossible in part time 4x4.
>
>
> Then I've been witnessing a miracle for 26 years.
>
> Here's my actual scenario:
>
> You are going downhill, a very steep off camber downhill, in gear, and the
> vehicle starts to slide sideways. At the bottom of the hill, let's say 50yds
> there is a 90deg turn with an intersection and a stop sign. With only enough
> pressure on the brakes to keep them from locking up, quickly shift to
> neutral, the vehicle will straighten up whether in 4WD or not. You will
> regain directional control.
> I'm not arguing theory or anything that looks good on paper, I'm saying what
> actually happens.
>
> Do you not see that we are describing nearly the same thing, only without
> the accelerating part?
>
> If instead, you leave the vehicle in gear and accelerate, you will ALSO
> regain directional control, but now you are going faster because you
> accelerated, and it works great if you don't have an obstacle at the bottom
> of the hill, but in this case you do. How are you going to stop?
>
> I don't suggest trying my suggestion if you don't have the skills to do it.
> Instead, go ahead into the tree, into the ditch, or off the embankment.
> (Obvious insult returned, I owed you one)
> Spdloader
>
>
>
>>Mike
>>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>>Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>>Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>>(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
>
>
The only real good advice for this thread is:
Before embarking into a dangerous icy snowy hilly area,
ensure you have the proper traction devices, like studded tires
or chains. Without those items, means DO NOT GO.
It's best to use common sense here.
P.S No insults are intended.
Cheers
:-)
Spdloader wrote:
> I guess I have to go back on my promise to drop it.
>
>
>>Sorry, but there is just the one big point you don't seem to grasp about
>>part time 4x4.... It 'locks' the front and rear axles together.
>
>
> It's not about me grasping anything, it's real world training and
> experience. It works. I fully understand how 4WD works. I was only a cop
> for 9 years, but was a mechanic for about 15. Steering, suspension, brakes,
> 4WD, electrical, HVAC, etc.
>
>>When the back wheels are locked by the emergency brake, the front wheels
>>'CANNOT' rotate!
>
>
> Surely you don't think I meant to leave the brake locked on while shifting
> to neutral, do you? I assume we're still talking about the parking lot
> scenario.+
> Release the ebrake, shift to neutral, steer towards the slide, control
> regained, back into gear and off you go.
>
>
>>When the front brakes are locked, the rear wheels 'CANNOT' rotate even
>>with the proportioning valve.
>
>
> Thats true, when the brake pedal is pressed, the proportioning valve directs
> incoming pressure from the master cylinder to the rear first, then pressure
> builds, activating the front brakes, unless in a dual-diagonal system, (old
> GM) but not used on Jeep. This all happens in milliseconds. So, if the front
> brakes are locked, the rear were first.
>
>
>>You can 'Not' regain control by using neutral in part time 4x4 because
>>the front and rear axles are locked together and one 'must' scuff which
>>loses traction.
>
>
> Works everytime without fail.
>
>>
>>It is just physically impossible in part time 4x4.
>
>
> Then I've been witnessing a miracle for 26 years.
>
> Here's my actual scenario:
>
> You are going downhill, a very steep off camber downhill, in gear, and the
> vehicle starts to slide sideways. At the bottom of the hill, let's say 50yds
> there is a 90deg turn with an intersection and a stop sign. With only enough
> pressure on the brakes to keep them from locking up, quickly shift to
> neutral, the vehicle will straighten up whether in 4WD or not. You will
> regain directional control.
> I'm not arguing theory or anything that looks good on paper, I'm saying what
> actually happens.
>
> Do you not see that we are describing nearly the same thing, only without
> the accelerating part?
>
> If instead, you leave the vehicle in gear and accelerate, you will ALSO
> regain directional control, but now you are going faster because you
> accelerated, and it works great if you don't have an obstacle at the bottom
> of the hill, but in this case you do. How are you going to stop?
>
> I don't suggest trying my suggestion if you don't have the skills to do it.
> Instead, go ahead into the tree, into the ditch, or off the embankment.
> (Obvious insult returned, I owed you one)
> Spdloader
>
>
>
>>Mike
>>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>>Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>>Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>>(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
>
>