134a Refrigerant
#221
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 134a Refrigerant
"Nathan W. Collier" <MontanaJeeper@aol.com> wrote in message
news:11a7nngj5ljmee5@corp.supernews.com...
> "Stephen Cowell" <scowell@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:JuMoe.168$%j7.128@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com. ..
> > Can you show us a link giving that information as
> > a scientific result? I didn't think so..
>
> nor can you provide any scientific evidence to back up your beliefs. the
> epa is a self serving ----- (made up mostly of whiney tree hugging
liberals)
> who must continually find fault in order to justify their own existance.
> nothing has ever been proven.
Can't argue with a Luddite... do you believe we
went to the Moon? Trust NASA? BTW, you've
used the 'L' word... now can I equate you with
Tim McVey? What branch of militia do *you*
belong to?
> > They have found that the emissions of the human-produced halocarbons,
plus
> > the much smaller contribution from natural sources, could account for
all
> > of
> > the stratospheric chlorine.
>
> "could" account for. _could_. nothing scientific or conclusive in that
> statement.
Science always leaves room for doubt... that's
the nature of science. The doubt gets smaller
and smaller... either cite new evidence, or go
back to faith-based 'science'. Your agenda
is showing.
__
Steve
..
#222
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 134a Refrigerant
"Stephen Cowell" <scowell@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:GOYoe.314$%j7.179@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com. ..
> Can't argue with a Luddite... do you believe we
> went to the Moon? Trust NASA? BTW, you've
> used the 'L' word... now can I equate you with
> Tim McVey? What branch of militia do *you*
> belong to?
lol let me get this straight. because i require _proof_ you equate me with
tim mcveigh? how assinine. you cant make your argument so you try to cloud
the discussion with ridiculous statements....another typical seminar liberal
tactic that failed miserably.
> Science always leaves room for doubt... that's
> the nature of science.
WRONG. you have fact and then you have agenda driven blind speculation.
"room for doubt" just goes to show that youre presenting opinion as fact,
another typical seminar liberal tactic.
--
Nathan W. Collier
http://7SlotGrille.com
http://UtilityOffRoad.com
news:GOYoe.314$%j7.179@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com. ..
> Can't argue with a Luddite... do you believe we
> went to the Moon? Trust NASA? BTW, you've
> used the 'L' word... now can I equate you with
> Tim McVey? What branch of militia do *you*
> belong to?
lol let me get this straight. because i require _proof_ you equate me with
tim mcveigh? how assinine. you cant make your argument so you try to cloud
the discussion with ridiculous statements....another typical seminar liberal
tactic that failed miserably.
> Science always leaves room for doubt... that's
> the nature of science.
WRONG. you have fact and then you have agenda driven blind speculation.
"room for doubt" just goes to show that youre presenting opinion as fact,
another typical seminar liberal tactic.
--
Nathan W. Collier
http://7SlotGrille.com
http://UtilityOffRoad.com
#223
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 134a Refrigerant
"Stephen Cowell" <scowell@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:GOYoe.314$%j7.179@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com. ..
> Can't argue with a Luddite... do you believe we
> went to the Moon? Trust NASA? BTW, you've
> used the 'L' word... now can I equate you with
> Tim McVey? What branch of militia do *you*
> belong to?
lol let me get this straight. because i require _proof_ you equate me with
tim mcveigh? how assinine. you cant make your argument so you try to cloud
the discussion with ridiculous statements....another typical seminar liberal
tactic that failed miserably.
> Science always leaves room for doubt... that's
> the nature of science.
WRONG. you have fact and then you have agenda driven blind speculation.
"room for doubt" just goes to show that youre presenting opinion as fact,
another typical seminar liberal tactic.
--
Nathan W. Collier
http://7SlotGrille.com
http://UtilityOffRoad.com
news:GOYoe.314$%j7.179@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com. ..
> Can't argue with a Luddite... do you believe we
> went to the Moon? Trust NASA? BTW, you've
> used the 'L' word... now can I equate you with
> Tim McVey? What branch of militia do *you*
> belong to?
lol let me get this straight. because i require _proof_ you equate me with
tim mcveigh? how assinine. you cant make your argument so you try to cloud
the discussion with ridiculous statements....another typical seminar liberal
tactic that failed miserably.
> Science always leaves room for doubt... that's
> the nature of science.
WRONG. you have fact and then you have agenda driven blind speculation.
"room for doubt" just goes to show that youre presenting opinion as fact,
another typical seminar liberal tactic.
--
Nathan W. Collier
http://7SlotGrille.com
http://UtilityOffRoad.com
#224
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 134a Refrigerant
"Stephen Cowell" <scowell@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:GOYoe.314$%j7.179@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com. ..
> Can't argue with a Luddite... do you believe we
> went to the Moon? Trust NASA? BTW, you've
> used the 'L' word... now can I equate you with
> Tim McVey? What branch of militia do *you*
> belong to?
lol let me get this straight. because i require _proof_ you equate me with
tim mcveigh? how assinine. you cant make your argument so you try to cloud
the discussion with ridiculous statements....another typical seminar liberal
tactic that failed miserably.
> Science always leaves room for doubt... that's
> the nature of science.
WRONG. you have fact and then you have agenda driven blind speculation.
"room for doubt" just goes to show that youre presenting opinion as fact,
another typical seminar liberal tactic.
--
Nathan W. Collier
http://7SlotGrille.com
http://UtilityOffRoad.com
news:GOYoe.314$%j7.179@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com. ..
> Can't argue with a Luddite... do you believe we
> went to the Moon? Trust NASA? BTW, you've
> used the 'L' word... now can I equate you with
> Tim McVey? What branch of militia do *you*
> belong to?
lol let me get this straight. because i require _proof_ you equate me with
tim mcveigh? how assinine. you cant make your argument so you try to cloud
the discussion with ridiculous statements....another typical seminar liberal
tactic that failed miserably.
> Science always leaves room for doubt... that's
> the nature of science.
WRONG. you have fact and then you have agenda driven blind speculation.
"room for doubt" just goes to show that youre presenting opinion as fact,
another typical seminar liberal tactic.
--
Nathan W. Collier
http://7SlotGrille.com
http://UtilityOffRoad.com
#225
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 134a Refrigerant
"Stephen Cowell" <scowell@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:GOYoe.314$%j7.179@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com. ..
> Can't argue with a Luddite... do you believe we
> went to the Moon? Trust NASA? BTW, you've
> used the 'L' word... now can I equate you with
> Tim McVey? What branch of militia do *you*
> belong to?
lol let me get this straight. because i require _proof_ you equate me with
tim mcveigh? how assinine. you cant make your argument so you try to cloud
the discussion with ridiculous statements....another typical seminar liberal
tactic that failed miserably.
> Science always leaves room for doubt... that's
> the nature of science.
WRONG. you have fact and then you have agenda driven blind speculation.
"room for doubt" just goes to show that youre presenting opinion as fact,
another typical seminar liberal tactic.
--
Nathan W. Collier
http://7SlotGrille.com
http://UtilityOffRoad.com
news:GOYoe.314$%j7.179@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com. ..
> Can't argue with a Luddite... do you believe we
> went to the Moon? Trust NASA? BTW, you've
> used the 'L' word... now can I equate you with
> Tim McVey? What branch of militia do *you*
> belong to?
lol let me get this straight. because i require _proof_ you equate me with
tim mcveigh? how assinine. you cant make your argument so you try to cloud
the discussion with ridiculous statements....another typical seminar liberal
tactic that failed miserably.
> Science always leaves room for doubt... that's
> the nature of science.
WRONG. you have fact and then you have agenda driven blind speculation.
"room for doubt" just goes to show that youre presenting opinion as fact,
another typical seminar liberal tactic.
--
Nathan W. Collier
http://7SlotGrille.com
http://UtilityOffRoad.com
#226
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 134a Refrigerant
I actually knew all of that, but thanks.
What is illegal to use about R12 is releasing it to the atmosphere, and
since most of us are not equipped to capture it at home, we can't buy it at
the corner store and add it to the A/C system on our car. We can't capture
R134 either, but this is not a big issue because R134 doesn't deplete the
ozone layer like R12 does. When I was a kid, we used to buy cans of R12 at
the auto parts store, and hook up a couple of guages and squirt it in, and
we didn't care that some would be released. Indeed, we needed some to escape
to purge the air that might be in the system. We could do this chore in the
driveway at home, and this was a huge part of the problem with ozone
depletion. Now that R12 can't be bought at the corner store, then consumers
have to go to the professionals to have the service done.
The professionals have the equipment to capture R12 (and R134 for that
matter), but I think that pretty much everybody recognizes that R12's days
are numbered here in the USA, and most A/C shops are in the business of
retrofitting old cars to R134 instead of continuing to try and keep them
running on R12. The only way that R12 gets released today is if the car is
in an accident, or a third world country.
"Robb S via CarKB.com" <forum@CarKB.com> wrote in message
news:846095a956e34247898e91293dad8468@CarKB.com...
> Jeff, just a FYI for you and the group on R 12.
> I think you are mistaken about it being illegal. R 12 is ILLEGAL to
> manufacture, not use. The Montreal Protocal dictates that R 12 can be
> used, just not manufactured. And when all of the current supplies are
used
> up, thats it. Unfortunately for the USA, third world countries like
mexico
> are exempt from those rules. It is legal to manufacture R 12 in Mexico.
> Thats why it's smuggled across the border. Its still legal to use, just
no
> make here or import. And it is legal to buy it on the open market. Its a
> huge business for reclaim companies to recondition recovered refrigerant R
> 12, and resell it. Just some info to keep everyone on the right track.
>
>
>
>
> Jeff Strickland wrote:
> >>> I hadn't heard that there was any problem with making R134, and I am
> >>> surprised that anybody is reporting trouble finding it.
> >[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> >> R12 is cheaper to produce than 134. It's pretty non-toxic too, which
can't
> >> be said for 134. Political creatures have made 12 expensive.
> >
> >It doesn't matter that it is cheaper to make, it is essentially illegal
to
> >use in the USA. R12 eats the ozone layer, or whatever, and is a banned
> >substance. It also does not play well with others in the neighborhood,
R134
> >for example. If your system is designed to run on R134, it won't work
right
> >on R12 anyway, and if you want to convert your factory R12 system back to
> >R12 after retrofitting it to R134, then it will be costly. You can't buy
R12
> >on the open market, so you'll have to find a crook that will sell it to
you,
> >or pay to evacuate your system and refill it. You are not going to top
off a
> >low R134 system with R12, if for no other reason than the fittings are
> >different sizes.
> --
> Robb
>
>
> Message posted via http://www.carkb.com
What is illegal to use about R12 is releasing it to the atmosphere, and
since most of us are not equipped to capture it at home, we can't buy it at
the corner store and add it to the A/C system on our car. We can't capture
R134 either, but this is not a big issue because R134 doesn't deplete the
ozone layer like R12 does. When I was a kid, we used to buy cans of R12 at
the auto parts store, and hook up a couple of guages and squirt it in, and
we didn't care that some would be released. Indeed, we needed some to escape
to purge the air that might be in the system. We could do this chore in the
driveway at home, and this was a huge part of the problem with ozone
depletion. Now that R12 can't be bought at the corner store, then consumers
have to go to the professionals to have the service done.
The professionals have the equipment to capture R12 (and R134 for that
matter), but I think that pretty much everybody recognizes that R12's days
are numbered here in the USA, and most A/C shops are in the business of
retrofitting old cars to R134 instead of continuing to try and keep them
running on R12. The only way that R12 gets released today is if the car is
in an accident, or a third world country.
"Robb S via CarKB.com" <forum@CarKB.com> wrote in message
news:846095a956e34247898e91293dad8468@CarKB.com...
> Jeff, just a FYI for you and the group on R 12.
> I think you are mistaken about it being illegal. R 12 is ILLEGAL to
> manufacture, not use. The Montreal Protocal dictates that R 12 can be
> used, just not manufactured. And when all of the current supplies are
used
> up, thats it. Unfortunately for the USA, third world countries like
mexico
> are exempt from those rules. It is legal to manufacture R 12 in Mexico.
> Thats why it's smuggled across the border. Its still legal to use, just
no
> make here or import. And it is legal to buy it on the open market. Its a
> huge business for reclaim companies to recondition recovered refrigerant R
> 12, and resell it. Just some info to keep everyone on the right track.
>
>
>
>
> Jeff Strickland wrote:
> >>> I hadn't heard that there was any problem with making R134, and I am
> >>> surprised that anybody is reporting trouble finding it.
> >[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> >> R12 is cheaper to produce than 134. It's pretty non-toxic too, which
can't
> >> be said for 134. Political creatures have made 12 expensive.
> >
> >It doesn't matter that it is cheaper to make, it is essentially illegal
to
> >use in the USA. R12 eats the ozone layer, or whatever, and is a banned
> >substance. It also does not play well with others in the neighborhood,
R134
> >for example. If your system is designed to run on R134, it won't work
right
> >on R12 anyway, and if you want to convert your factory R12 system back to
> >R12 after retrofitting it to R134, then it will be costly. You can't buy
R12
> >on the open market, so you'll have to find a crook that will sell it to
you,
> >or pay to evacuate your system and refill it. You are not going to top
off a
> >low R134 system with R12, if for no other reason than the fittings are
> >different sizes.
> --
> Robb
>
>
> Message posted via http://www.carkb.com
#227
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 134a Refrigerant
I actually knew all of that, but thanks.
What is illegal to use about R12 is releasing it to the atmosphere, and
since most of us are not equipped to capture it at home, we can't buy it at
the corner store and add it to the A/C system on our car. We can't capture
R134 either, but this is not a big issue because R134 doesn't deplete the
ozone layer like R12 does. When I was a kid, we used to buy cans of R12 at
the auto parts store, and hook up a couple of guages and squirt it in, and
we didn't care that some would be released. Indeed, we needed some to escape
to purge the air that might be in the system. We could do this chore in the
driveway at home, and this was a huge part of the problem with ozone
depletion. Now that R12 can't be bought at the corner store, then consumers
have to go to the professionals to have the service done.
The professionals have the equipment to capture R12 (and R134 for that
matter), but I think that pretty much everybody recognizes that R12's days
are numbered here in the USA, and most A/C shops are in the business of
retrofitting old cars to R134 instead of continuing to try and keep them
running on R12. The only way that R12 gets released today is if the car is
in an accident, or a third world country.
"Robb S via CarKB.com" <forum@CarKB.com> wrote in message
news:846095a956e34247898e91293dad8468@CarKB.com...
> Jeff, just a FYI for you and the group on R 12.
> I think you are mistaken about it being illegal. R 12 is ILLEGAL to
> manufacture, not use. The Montreal Protocal dictates that R 12 can be
> used, just not manufactured. And when all of the current supplies are
used
> up, thats it. Unfortunately for the USA, third world countries like
mexico
> are exempt from those rules. It is legal to manufacture R 12 in Mexico.
> Thats why it's smuggled across the border. Its still legal to use, just
no
> make here or import. And it is legal to buy it on the open market. Its a
> huge business for reclaim companies to recondition recovered refrigerant R
> 12, and resell it. Just some info to keep everyone on the right track.
>
>
>
>
> Jeff Strickland wrote:
> >>> I hadn't heard that there was any problem with making R134, and I am
> >>> surprised that anybody is reporting trouble finding it.
> >[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> >> R12 is cheaper to produce than 134. It's pretty non-toxic too, which
can't
> >> be said for 134. Political creatures have made 12 expensive.
> >
> >It doesn't matter that it is cheaper to make, it is essentially illegal
to
> >use in the USA. R12 eats the ozone layer, or whatever, and is a banned
> >substance. It also does not play well with others in the neighborhood,
R134
> >for example. If your system is designed to run on R134, it won't work
right
> >on R12 anyway, and if you want to convert your factory R12 system back to
> >R12 after retrofitting it to R134, then it will be costly. You can't buy
R12
> >on the open market, so you'll have to find a crook that will sell it to
you,
> >or pay to evacuate your system and refill it. You are not going to top
off a
> >low R134 system with R12, if for no other reason than the fittings are
> >different sizes.
> --
> Robb
>
>
> Message posted via http://www.carkb.com
What is illegal to use about R12 is releasing it to the atmosphere, and
since most of us are not equipped to capture it at home, we can't buy it at
the corner store and add it to the A/C system on our car. We can't capture
R134 either, but this is not a big issue because R134 doesn't deplete the
ozone layer like R12 does. When I was a kid, we used to buy cans of R12 at
the auto parts store, and hook up a couple of guages and squirt it in, and
we didn't care that some would be released. Indeed, we needed some to escape
to purge the air that might be in the system. We could do this chore in the
driveway at home, and this was a huge part of the problem with ozone
depletion. Now that R12 can't be bought at the corner store, then consumers
have to go to the professionals to have the service done.
The professionals have the equipment to capture R12 (and R134 for that
matter), but I think that pretty much everybody recognizes that R12's days
are numbered here in the USA, and most A/C shops are in the business of
retrofitting old cars to R134 instead of continuing to try and keep them
running on R12. The only way that R12 gets released today is if the car is
in an accident, or a third world country.
"Robb S via CarKB.com" <forum@CarKB.com> wrote in message
news:846095a956e34247898e91293dad8468@CarKB.com...
> Jeff, just a FYI for you and the group on R 12.
> I think you are mistaken about it being illegal. R 12 is ILLEGAL to
> manufacture, not use. The Montreal Protocal dictates that R 12 can be
> used, just not manufactured. And when all of the current supplies are
used
> up, thats it. Unfortunately for the USA, third world countries like
mexico
> are exempt from those rules. It is legal to manufacture R 12 in Mexico.
> Thats why it's smuggled across the border. Its still legal to use, just
no
> make here or import. And it is legal to buy it on the open market. Its a
> huge business for reclaim companies to recondition recovered refrigerant R
> 12, and resell it. Just some info to keep everyone on the right track.
>
>
>
>
> Jeff Strickland wrote:
> >>> I hadn't heard that there was any problem with making R134, and I am
> >>> surprised that anybody is reporting trouble finding it.
> >[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> >> R12 is cheaper to produce than 134. It's pretty non-toxic too, which
can't
> >> be said for 134. Political creatures have made 12 expensive.
> >
> >It doesn't matter that it is cheaper to make, it is essentially illegal
to
> >use in the USA. R12 eats the ozone layer, or whatever, and is a banned
> >substance. It also does not play well with others in the neighborhood,
R134
> >for example. If your system is designed to run on R134, it won't work
right
> >on R12 anyway, and if you want to convert your factory R12 system back to
> >R12 after retrofitting it to R134, then it will be costly. You can't buy
R12
> >on the open market, so you'll have to find a crook that will sell it to
you,
> >or pay to evacuate your system and refill it. You are not going to top
off a
> >low R134 system with R12, if for no other reason than the fittings are
> >different sizes.
> --
> Robb
>
>
> Message posted via http://www.carkb.com
#228
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 134a Refrigerant
I actually knew all of that, but thanks.
What is illegal to use about R12 is releasing it to the atmosphere, and
since most of us are not equipped to capture it at home, we can't buy it at
the corner store and add it to the A/C system on our car. We can't capture
R134 either, but this is not a big issue because R134 doesn't deplete the
ozone layer like R12 does. When I was a kid, we used to buy cans of R12 at
the auto parts store, and hook up a couple of guages and squirt it in, and
we didn't care that some would be released. Indeed, we needed some to escape
to purge the air that might be in the system. We could do this chore in the
driveway at home, and this was a huge part of the problem with ozone
depletion. Now that R12 can't be bought at the corner store, then consumers
have to go to the professionals to have the service done.
The professionals have the equipment to capture R12 (and R134 for that
matter), but I think that pretty much everybody recognizes that R12's days
are numbered here in the USA, and most A/C shops are in the business of
retrofitting old cars to R134 instead of continuing to try and keep them
running on R12. The only way that R12 gets released today is if the car is
in an accident, or a third world country.
"Robb S via CarKB.com" <forum@CarKB.com> wrote in message
news:846095a956e34247898e91293dad8468@CarKB.com...
> Jeff, just a FYI for you and the group on R 12.
> I think you are mistaken about it being illegal. R 12 is ILLEGAL to
> manufacture, not use. The Montreal Protocal dictates that R 12 can be
> used, just not manufactured. And when all of the current supplies are
used
> up, thats it. Unfortunately for the USA, third world countries like
mexico
> are exempt from those rules. It is legal to manufacture R 12 in Mexico.
> Thats why it's smuggled across the border. Its still legal to use, just
no
> make here or import. And it is legal to buy it on the open market. Its a
> huge business for reclaim companies to recondition recovered refrigerant R
> 12, and resell it. Just some info to keep everyone on the right track.
>
>
>
>
> Jeff Strickland wrote:
> >>> I hadn't heard that there was any problem with making R134, and I am
> >>> surprised that anybody is reporting trouble finding it.
> >[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> >> R12 is cheaper to produce than 134. It's pretty non-toxic too, which
can't
> >> be said for 134. Political creatures have made 12 expensive.
> >
> >It doesn't matter that it is cheaper to make, it is essentially illegal
to
> >use in the USA. R12 eats the ozone layer, or whatever, and is a banned
> >substance. It also does not play well with others in the neighborhood,
R134
> >for example. If your system is designed to run on R134, it won't work
right
> >on R12 anyway, and if you want to convert your factory R12 system back to
> >R12 after retrofitting it to R134, then it will be costly. You can't buy
R12
> >on the open market, so you'll have to find a crook that will sell it to
you,
> >or pay to evacuate your system and refill it. You are not going to top
off a
> >low R134 system with R12, if for no other reason than the fittings are
> >different sizes.
> --
> Robb
>
>
> Message posted via http://www.carkb.com
What is illegal to use about R12 is releasing it to the atmosphere, and
since most of us are not equipped to capture it at home, we can't buy it at
the corner store and add it to the A/C system on our car. We can't capture
R134 either, but this is not a big issue because R134 doesn't deplete the
ozone layer like R12 does. When I was a kid, we used to buy cans of R12 at
the auto parts store, and hook up a couple of guages and squirt it in, and
we didn't care that some would be released. Indeed, we needed some to escape
to purge the air that might be in the system. We could do this chore in the
driveway at home, and this was a huge part of the problem with ozone
depletion. Now that R12 can't be bought at the corner store, then consumers
have to go to the professionals to have the service done.
The professionals have the equipment to capture R12 (and R134 for that
matter), but I think that pretty much everybody recognizes that R12's days
are numbered here in the USA, and most A/C shops are in the business of
retrofitting old cars to R134 instead of continuing to try and keep them
running on R12. The only way that R12 gets released today is if the car is
in an accident, or a third world country.
"Robb S via CarKB.com" <forum@CarKB.com> wrote in message
news:846095a956e34247898e91293dad8468@CarKB.com...
> Jeff, just a FYI for you and the group on R 12.
> I think you are mistaken about it being illegal. R 12 is ILLEGAL to
> manufacture, not use. The Montreal Protocal dictates that R 12 can be
> used, just not manufactured. And when all of the current supplies are
used
> up, thats it. Unfortunately for the USA, third world countries like
mexico
> are exempt from those rules. It is legal to manufacture R 12 in Mexico.
> Thats why it's smuggled across the border. Its still legal to use, just
no
> make here or import. And it is legal to buy it on the open market. Its a
> huge business for reclaim companies to recondition recovered refrigerant R
> 12, and resell it. Just some info to keep everyone on the right track.
>
>
>
>
> Jeff Strickland wrote:
> >>> I hadn't heard that there was any problem with making R134, and I am
> >>> surprised that anybody is reporting trouble finding it.
> >[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> >> R12 is cheaper to produce than 134. It's pretty non-toxic too, which
can't
> >> be said for 134. Political creatures have made 12 expensive.
> >
> >It doesn't matter that it is cheaper to make, it is essentially illegal
to
> >use in the USA. R12 eats the ozone layer, or whatever, and is a banned
> >substance. It also does not play well with others in the neighborhood,
R134
> >for example. If your system is designed to run on R134, it won't work
right
> >on R12 anyway, and if you want to convert your factory R12 system back to
> >R12 after retrofitting it to R134, then it will be costly. You can't buy
R12
> >on the open market, so you'll have to find a crook that will sell it to
you,
> >or pay to evacuate your system and refill it. You are not going to top
off a
> >low R134 system with R12, if for no other reason than the fittings are
> >different sizes.
> --
> Robb
>
>
> Message posted via http://www.carkb.com
#229
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 134a Refrigerant
I actually knew all of that, but thanks.
What is illegal to use about R12 is releasing it to the atmosphere, and
since most of us are not equipped to capture it at home, we can't buy it at
the corner store and add it to the A/C system on our car. We can't capture
R134 either, but this is not a big issue because R134 doesn't deplete the
ozone layer like R12 does. When I was a kid, we used to buy cans of R12 at
the auto parts store, and hook up a couple of guages and squirt it in, and
we didn't care that some would be released. Indeed, we needed some to escape
to purge the air that might be in the system. We could do this chore in the
driveway at home, and this was a huge part of the problem with ozone
depletion. Now that R12 can't be bought at the corner store, then consumers
have to go to the professionals to have the service done.
The professionals have the equipment to capture R12 (and R134 for that
matter), but I think that pretty much everybody recognizes that R12's days
are numbered here in the USA, and most A/C shops are in the business of
retrofitting old cars to R134 instead of continuing to try and keep them
running on R12. The only way that R12 gets released today is if the car is
in an accident, or a third world country.
"Robb S via CarKB.com" <forum@CarKB.com> wrote in message
news:846095a956e34247898e91293dad8468@CarKB.com...
> Jeff, just a FYI for you and the group on R 12.
> I think you are mistaken about it being illegal. R 12 is ILLEGAL to
> manufacture, not use. The Montreal Protocal dictates that R 12 can be
> used, just not manufactured. And when all of the current supplies are
used
> up, thats it. Unfortunately for the USA, third world countries like
mexico
> are exempt from those rules. It is legal to manufacture R 12 in Mexico.
> Thats why it's smuggled across the border. Its still legal to use, just
no
> make here or import. And it is legal to buy it on the open market. Its a
> huge business for reclaim companies to recondition recovered refrigerant R
> 12, and resell it. Just some info to keep everyone on the right track.
>
>
>
>
> Jeff Strickland wrote:
> >>> I hadn't heard that there was any problem with making R134, and I am
> >>> surprised that anybody is reporting trouble finding it.
> >[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> >> R12 is cheaper to produce than 134. It's pretty non-toxic too, which
can't
> >> be said for 134. Political creatures have made 12 expensive.
> >
> >It doesn't matter that it is cheaper to make, it is essentially illegal
to
> >use in the USA. R12 eats the ozone layer, or whatever, and is a banned
> >substance. It also does not play well with others in the neighborhood,
R134
> >for example. If your system is designed to run on R134, it won't work
right
> >on R12 anyway, and if you want to convert your factory R12 system back to
> >R12 after retrofitting it to R134, then it will be costly. You can't buy
R12
> >on the open market, so you'll have to find a crook that will sell it to
you,
> >or pay to evacuate your system and refill it. You are not going to top
off a
> >low R134 system with R12, if for no other reason than the fittings are
> >different sizes.
> --
> Robb
>
>
> Message posted via http://www.carkb.com
What is illegal to use about R12 is releasing it to the atmosphere, and
since most of us are not equipped to capture it at home, we can't buy it at
the corner store and add it to the A/C system on our car. We can't capture
R134 either, but this is not a big issue because R134 doesn't deplete the
ozone layer like R12 does. When I was a kid, we used to buy cans of R12 at
the auto parts store, and hook up a couple of guages and squirt it in, and
we didn't care that some would be released. Indeed, we needed some to escape
to purge the air that might be in the system. We could do this chore in the
driveway at home, and this was a huge part of the problem with ozone
depletion. Now that R12 can't be bought at the corner store, then consumers
have to go to the professionals to have the service done.
The professionals have the equipment to capture R12 (and R134 for that
matter), but I think that pretty much everybody recognizes that R12's days
are numbered here in the USA, and most A/C shops are in the business of
retrofitting old cars to R134 instead of continuing to try and keep them
running on R12. The only way that R12 gets released today is if the car is
in an accident, or a third world country.
"Robb S via CarKB.com" <forum@CarKB.com> wrote in message
news:846095a956e34247898e91293dad8468@CarKB.com...
> Jeff, just a FYI for you and the group on R 12.
> I think you are mistaken about it being illegal. R 12 is ILLEGAL to
> manufacture, not use. The Montreal Protocal dictates that R 12 can be
> used, just not manufactured. And when all of the current supplies are
used
> up, thats it. Unfortunately for the USA, third world countries like
mexico
> are exempt from those rules. It is legal to manufacture R 12 in Mexico.
> Thats why it's smuggled across the border. Its still legal to use, just
no
> make here or import. And it is legal to buy it on the open market. Its a
> huge business for reclaim companies to recondition recovered refrigerant R
> 12, and resell it. Just some info to keep everyone on the right track.
>
>
>
>
> Jeff Strickland wrote:
> >>> I hadn't heard that there was any problem with making R134, and I am
> >>> surprised that anybody is reporting trouble finding it.
> >[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> >> R12 is cheaper to produce than 134. It's pretty non-toxic too, which
can't
> >> be said for 134. Political creatures have made 12 expensive.
> >
> >It doesn't matter that it is cheaper to make, it is essentially illegal
to
> >use in the USA. R12 eats the ozone layer, or whatever, and is a banned
> >substance. It also does not play well with others in the neighborhood,
R134
> >for example. If your system is designed to run on R134, it won't work
right
> >on R12 anyway, and if you want to convert your factory R12 system back to
> >R12 after retrofitting it to R134, then it will be costly. You can't buy
R12
> >on the open market, so you'll have to find a crook that will sell it to
you,
> >or pay to evacuate your system and refill it. You are not going to top
off a
> >low R134 system with R12, if for no other reason than the fittings are
> >different sizes.
> --
> Robb
>
>
> Message posted via http://www.carkb.com
#230
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 134a Refrigerant
Robb S via CarKB.com wrote:
> JohnM wrote:
>
>>>Shoot a little propane in the system and enjoy -
>>
>>It's not perfect but it'll work. IIRC, the oil in a R12 system is
>>correct for propane too.. It's been a while since I looked into it.. Oh,
>>I remember, I think- the vapor pressure is too high, adding 30%
>>isobutane brings it right into line.
>>
>>If you were to do it, which I believe is a federal crime
>>
>>Propane is a direct replacement for R22- virtually identical pressure
>>curves and, again, the oil is compatible.
>>
>>Anhydrous ammonia is another candidate. I am unaware of legal
>>complications with anhydrous, as with all things bragging without proper
>>learning is contraindicated.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> OK here goes my 2 cents worth about propane and amonia......
>
> 1. what makes a good refrigerant in my opinion is its non toxicity rating
> and its flamability rating, and of course it's boiling point and a few
> other factors I won't get into now.
>
> Propane is primarialy used in ULTRA Low temp applications in the industry,
> and even then is a azotropic (mixed blend refrigerant).. Were talking
> about minus 300 F' etc.... Thats the ONLY application that I would EVER
> use it in, what the manufacturer intended it for.....or used in THEIR
> system.
You're talking liquid O2 temps there, propane boils, at atmospheric
pressure, around -44F. Oxygen boils at -297.. you sure about that temp?
I'm not saying you're wrong, I don't know heaps about refrigeration, but
I know some and this is a pretty low temperature.
>
> 2. Anhydrous Amonia is also an excellent refrigerant, but ranks extremely
> low in the safety areas as well. And it is primarily used only in
> Industrial applications. Remember, your evaporator coil is part of the
> cooling system, and there are lines running in the passenger compartment as
> part of the system. Keep in mind that some use rubber lines, and o rings,
> etc... and I would need to know that all of those components were
> compatible with what was being put in the system, I would hate to have a
> leak in the system in the passenger compartment, and have propane or amonia
> in the system Bad news, and I also believe it is illegal to use those
> refrigerants in that situation. OSHA has strict regulations as to where
> and how those refrigerants may be used. The old amonia refrigerators are
> just not around any more.......for a reason.
> With all the other refrigerants out there, I would have many other choices
> before I would ever even consider amonia or propane....
> I don't know why Rich was thinking of going from 134a to 12, but maybe its
> because that was the old style and only what he knew was to be used
> previously. Wouldn't be my first choice of a replacement. 134a should be
> easily found, but I definately think someone is jerking his chain, or he
> isn't doing the proper Google search. I'd mail him some, but I think it'd
> be more of a pain in the A*S to try and ship it to him. Have to go ground,
> and shipping a gas in a cylinder I'm sure has more regulations.
>
> I apologize to everyone for my brain fart on the cost of R 12. Bill was
> right, and it is for a 30LB jug, not per pound. Still cost prohibitive.
>
> I would suggest to Rich, that if he can't find it in the auto parts store,
> go to a garage and have them charge it, or......Google it again, and mail
> order it.......
>
> Using or suggesting that propane is a direct replacement for R 22 is the
> most irresponsible advice I've ever heard.....Too much of a risk involved,
> and certainly not an industry standard. Remember, all components are
> designed for the chemical make up of a certain refrigerant, and I would
> need way too much research to even consider putting propane into a system.
> And never would if it would ever be exposed to people in any way-shape or
> form...... JUST TOO SCARY for me........
I didn't suggest anyone use propane as a replacement for R22, I just
pointed out an interesting fact while free-associating; it's a perfect,
cheap, compatible replacement. I'm pretty certain it's illegal,
otherwise it'd be used in place of R22. Anyone interested can look it
up. Using it where a leak could be exposed to people or a enclosed area
would be a bad idea.
As far as the research, it's already been done- google will find lots of
info on it for you.
I made a mistake in the way I wrote concerning ammonia. As you state,
it's an excellent refrigerant, but if anyone were to use it in their car
or house they'd be inviting disaster. It's Mean Stuff, a good whiff of
it will damage a person (or other animal) for life. I erred in failing
to point that out, my free-association was going and I didn't catch it.
My mistake, and it's good you responded and pointed it out.
R134a is also bad stuff- nothing like ammonia, but worse than you'd
expect for something that's allowed to be risked in a closed enviroment
like an automobile. Again, google it for reliable information.
John
> JohnM wrote:
>
>>>Shoot a little propane in the system and enjoy -
>>
>>It's not perfect but it'll work. IIRC, the oil in a R12 system is
>>correct for propane too.. It's been a while since I looked into it.. Oh,
>>I remember, I think- the vapor pressure is too high, adding 30%
>>isobutane brings it right into line.
>>
>>If you were to do it, which I believe is a federal crime
>>
>>Propane is a direct replacement for R22- virtually identical pressure
>>curves and, again, the oil is compatible.
>>
>>Anhydrous ammonia is another candidate. I am unaware of legal
>>complications with anhydrous, as with all things bragging without proper
>>learning is contraindicated.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> OK here goes my 2 cents worth about propane and amonia......
>
> 1. what makes a good refrigerant in my opinion is its non toxicity rating
> and its flamability rating, and of course it's boiling point and a few
> other factors I won't get into now.
>
> Propane is primarialy used in ULTRA Low temp applications in the industry,
> and even then is a azotropic (mixed blend refrigerant).. Were talking
> about minus 300 F' etc.... Thats the ONLY application that I would EVER
> use it in, what the manufacturer intended it for.....or used in THEIR
> system.
You're talking liquid O2 temps there, propane boils, at atmospheric
pressure, around -44F. Oxygen boils at -297.. you sure about that temp?
I'm not saying you're wrong, I don't know heaps about refrigeration, but
I know some and this is a pretty low temperature.
>
> 2. Anhydrous Amonia is also an excellent refrigerant, but ranks extremely
> low in the safety areas as well. And it is primarily used only in
> Industrial applications. Remember, your evaporator coil is part of the
> cooling system, and there are lines running in the passenger compartment as
> part of the system. Keep in mind that some use rubber lines, and o rings,
> etc... and I would need to know that all of those components were
> compatible with what was being put in the system, I would hate to have a
> leak in the system in the passenger compartment, and have propane or amonia
> in the system Bad news, and I also believe it is illegal to use those
> refrigerants in that situation. OSHA has strict regulations as to where
> and how those refrigerants may be used. The old amonia refrigerators are
> just not around any more.......for a reason.
> With all the other refrigerants out there, I would have many other choices
> before I would ever even consider amonia or propane....
> I don't know why Rich was thinking of going from 134a to 12, but maybe its
> because that was the old style and only what he knew was to be used
> previously. Wouldn't be my first choice of a replacement. 134a should be
> easily found, but I definately think someone is jerking his chain, or he
> isn't doing the proper Google search. I'd mail him some, but I think it'd
> be more of a pain in the A*S to try and ship it to him. Have to go ground,
> and shipping a gas in a cylinder I'm sure has more regulations.
>
> I apologize to everyone for my brain fart on the cost of R 12. Bill was
> right, and it is for a 30LB jug, not per pound. Still cost prohibitive.
>
> I would suggest to Rich, that if he can't find it in the auto parts store,
> go to a garage and have them charge it, or......Google it again, and mail
> order it.......
>
> Using or suggesting that propane is a direct replacement for R 22 is the
> most irresponsible advice I've ever heard.....Too much of a risk involved,
> and certainly not an industry standard. Remember, all components are
> designed for the chemical make up of a certain refrigerant, and I would
> need way too much research to even consider putting propane into a system.
> And never would if it would ever be exposed to people in any way-shape or
> form...... JUST TOO SCARY for me........
I didn't suggest anyone use propane as a replacement for R22, I just
pointed out an interesting fact while free-associating; it's a perfect,
cheap, compatible replacement. I'm pretty certain it's illegal,
otherwise it'd be used in place of R22. Anyone interested can look it
up. Using it where a leak could be exposed to people or a enclosed area
would be a bad idea.
As far as the research, it's already been done- google will find lots of
info on it for you.
I made a mistake in the way I wrote concerning ammonia. As you state,
it's an excellent refrigerant, but if anyone were to use it in their car
or house they'd be inviting disaster. It's Mean Stuff, a good whiff of
it will damage a person (or other animal) for life. I erred in failing
to point that out, my free-association was going and I didn't catch it.
My mistake, and it's good you responded and pointed it out.
R134a is also bad stuff- nothing like ammonia, but worse than you'd
expect for something that's allowed to be risked in a closed enviroment
like an automobile. Again, google it for reliable information.
John