134a Refrigerant
#141
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 134a Refrigerant
Aerosols, carbon dioxide, sulphates, etc. but no known volcano appears
to either currently be or ever have spewed flourocarbons.
Matt Macchiarolo proclaimed:
> Don't forget that the single biggest source of atmospheric fluorocarbons are
> volcanoes.
>
> "L.W. ("ßill") ------ III" <----------@***.net> wrote in message
> news:42A22718.5004A5FF@***.net...
>
>> I actually feel a little guilty about the amount of freon I've let
>>escape. although they haven't convinced me that's responsible for our
>>ozone holes. That's just our natural tree's carbon dioxide change to the
>>ice age, that's been recorded over thirty times in our earth's natural
>>history.
>> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
>>mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>>
>>"Robb S via CarKB.com" wrote:
>>
>>>I still have a small retail can of R-12 laying around my garage
>>>somewhere.
>>>I'm holding onto it until I can donate it to a museum...
>>>--
>>>Robb
>>>
>>>Message posted via http://www.carkb.com
>
>
>
#142
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 134a Refrigerant
It may be like my local Kragen counter personnel steering people
away from the 134 kits, probably believing the wives tale saying if 134
mixes with 12 compressor oil it will explode. I'll change it one of
these years if I get up the gumption to get down in there to change the
orifice size, but ever since the global warming thing, it's been so much
colder in vista, I don't miss the air in my Bronco.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
"Robb S via CarKB.com" wrote:
>
> Yeah, had a couple too many beers I guess when I calculated the cost to the
> pound. Still extremely expensive considering I can get R 22 for about a
> buck a pound and R 134a for close to the same price. I think someone is
> leading this guy down the wrong road about the shortage of 134a.
away from the 134 kits, probably believing the wives tale saying if 134
mixes with 12 compressor oil it will explode. I'll change it one of
these years if I get up the gumption to get down in there to change the
orifice size, but ever since the global warming thing, it's been so much
colder in vista, I don't miss the air in my Bronco.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
"Robb S via CarKB.com" wrote:
>
> Yeah, had a couple too many beers I guess when I calculated the cost to the
> pound. Still extremely expensive considering I can get R 22 for about a
> buck a pound and R 134a for close to the same price. I think someone is
> leading this guy down the wrong road about the shortage of 134a.
#143
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 134a Refrigerant
It may be like my local Kragen counter personnel steering people
away from the 134 kits, probably believing the wives tale saying if 134
mixes with 12 compressor oil it will explode. I'll change it one of
these years if I get up the gumption to get down in there to change the
orifice size, but ever since the global warming thing, it's been so much
colder in vista, I don't miss the air in my Bronco.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
"Robb S via CarKB.com" wrote:
>
> Yeah, had a couple too many beers I guess when I calculated the cost to the
> pound. Still extremely expensive considering I can get R 22 for about a
> buck a pound and R 134a for close to the same price. I think someone is
> leading this guy down the wrong road about the shortage of 134a.
away from the 134 kits, probably believing the wives tale saying if 134
mixes with 12 compressor oil it will explode. I'll change it one of
these years if I get up the gumption to get down in there to change the
orifice size, but ever since the global warming thing, it's been so much
colder in vista, I don't miss the air in my Bronco.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
"Robb S via CarKB.com" wrote:
>
> Yeah, had a couple too many beers I guess when I calculated the cost to the
> pound. Still extremely expensive considering I can get R 22 for about a
> buck a pound and R 134a for close to the same price. I think someone is
> leading this guy down the wrong road about the shortage of 134a.
#144
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 134a Refrigerant
It may be like my local Kragen counter personnel steering people
away from the 134 kits, probably believing the wives tale saying if 134
mixes with 12 compressor oil it will explode. I'll change it one of
these years if I get up the gumption to get down in there to change the
orifice size, but ever since the global warming thing, it's been so much
colder in vista, I don't miss the air in my Bronco.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
"Robb S via CarKB.com" wrote:
>
> Yeah, had a couple too many beers I guess when I calculated the cost to the
> pound. Still extremely expensive considering I can get R 22 for about a
> buck a pound and R 134a for close to the same price. I think someone is
> leading this guy down the wrong road about the shortage of 134a.
away from the 134 kits, probably believing the wives tale saying if 134
mixes with 12 compressor oil it will explode. I'll change it one of
these years if I get up the gumption to get down in there to change the
orifice size, but ever since the global warming thing, it's been so much
colder in vista, I don't miss the air in my Bronco.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
"Robb S via CarKB.com" wrote:
>
> Yeah, had a couple too many beers I guess when I calculated the cost to the
> pound. Still extremely expensive considering I can get R 22 for about a
> buck a pound and R 134a for close to the same price. I think someone is
> leading this guy down the wrong road about the shortage of 134a.
#145
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 134a Refrigerant
It may be like my local Kragen counter personnel steering people
away from the 134 kits, probably believing the wives tale saying if 134
mixes with 12 compressor oil it will explode. I'll change it one of
these years if I get up the gumption to get down in there to change the
orifice size, but ever since the global warming thing, it's been so much
colder in vista, I don't miss the air in my Bronco.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
"Robb S via CarKB.com" wrote:
>
> Yeah, had a couple too many beers I guess when I calculated the cost to the
> pound. Still extremely expensive considering I can get R 22 for about a
> buck a pound and R 134a for close to the same price. I think someone is
> leading this guy down the wrong road about the shortage of 134a.
away from the 134 kits, probably believing the wives tale saying if 134
mixes with 12 compressor oil it will explode. I'll change it one of
these years if I get up the gumption to get down in there to change the
orifice size, but ever since the global warming thing, it's been so much
colder in vista, I don't miss the air in my Bronco.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
"Robb S via CarKB.com" wrote:
>
> Yeah, had a couple too many beers I guess when I calculated the cost to the
> pound. Still extremely expensive considering I can get R 22 for about a
> buck a pound and R 134a for close to the same price. I think someone is
> leading this guy down the wrong road about the shortage of 134a.
#146
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 134a Refrigerant
JohnM wrote:
>> Shoot a little propane in the system and enjoy -
>
>It's not perfect but it'll work. IIRC, the oil in a R12 system is
>correct for propane too.. It's been a while since I looked into it.. Oh,
>I remember, I think- the vapor pressure is too high, adding 30%
>isobutane brings it right into line.
>
>If you were to do it, which I believe is a federal crime
>
>Propane is a direct replacement for R22- virtually identical pressure
>curves and, again, the oil is compatible.
>
>Anhydrous ammonia is another candidate. I am unaware of legal
>complications with anhydrous, as with all things bragging without proper
>learning is contraindicated.
OK here goes my 2 cents worth about propane and amonia......
1. what makes a good refrigerant in my opinion is its non toxicity rating
and its flamability rating, and of course it's boiling point and a few
other factors I won't get into now.
Propane is primarialy used in ULTRA Low temp applications in the industry,
and even then is a azotropic (mixed blend refrigerant).. Were talking
about minus 300 F' etc.... Thats the ONLY application that I would EVER
use it in, what the manufacturer intended it for.....or used in THEIR
system.
2. Anhydrous Amonia is also an excellent refrigerant, but ranks extremely
low in the safety areas as well. And it is primarily used only in
Industrial applications. Remember, your evaporator coil is part of the
cooling system, and there are lines running in the passenger compartment as
part of the system. Keep in mind that some use rubber lines, and o rings,
etc... and I would need to know that all of those components were
compatible with what was being put in the system, I would hate to have a
leak in the system in the passenger compartment, and have propane or amonia
in the system Bad news, and I also believe it is illegal to use those
refrigerants in that situation. OSHA has strict regulations as to where
and how those refrigerants may be used. The old amonia refrigerators are
just not around any more.......for a reason.
With all the other refrigerants out there, I would have many other choices
before I would ever even consider amonia or propane....
I don't know why Rich was thinking of going from 134a to 12, but maybe its
because that was the old style and only what he knew was to be used
previously. Wouldn't be my first choice of a replacement. 134a should be
easily found, but I definately think someone is jerking his chain, or he
isn't doing the proper Google search. I'd mail him some, but I think it'd
be more of a pain in the A*S to try and ship it to him. Have to go ground,
and shipping a gas in a cylinder I'm sure has more regulations.
I apologize to everyone for my brain fart on the cost of R 12. Bill was
right, and it is for a 30LB jug, not per pound. Still cost prohibitive.
I would suggest to Rich, that if he can't find it in the auto parts store,
go to a garage and have them charge it, or......Google it again, and mail
order it.......
Using or suggesting that propane is a direct replacement for R 22 is the
most irresponsible advice I've ever heard.....Too much of a risk involved,
and certainly not an industry standard. Remember, all components are
designed for the chemical make up of a certain refrigerant, and I would
need way too much research to even consider putting propane into a system.
And never would if it would ever be exposed to people in any way-shape or
form...... JUST TOO SCARY for me........
--
Robb
Message posted via CarKB.com
http://www.carkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/jeep-cars/200506/1
>> Shoot a little propane in the system and enjoy -
>
>It's not perfect but it'll work. IIRC, the oil in a R12 system is
>correct for propane too.. It's been a while since I looked into it.. Oh,
>I remember, I think- the vapor pressure is too high, adding 30%
>isobutane brings it right into line.
>
>If you were to do it, which I believe is a federal crime
>
>Propane is a direct replacement for R22- virtually identical pressure
>curves and, again, the oil is compatible.
>
>Anhydrous ammonia is another candidate. I am unaware of legal
>complications with anhydrous, as with all things bragging without proper
>learning is contraindicated.
OK here goes my 2 cents worth about propane and amonia......
1. what makes a good refrigerant in my opinion is its non toxicity rating
and its flamability rating, and of course it's boiling point and a few
other factors I won't get into now.
Propane is primarialy used in ULTRA Low temp applications in the industry,
and even then is a azotropic (mixed blend refrigerant).. Were talking
about minus 300 F' etc.... Thats the ONLY application that I would EVER
use it in, what the manufacturer intended it for.....or used in THEIR
system.
2. Anhydrous Amonia is also an excellent refrigerant, but ranks extremely
low in the safety areas as well. And it is primarily used only in
Industrial applications. Remember, your evaporator coil is part of the
cooling system, and there are lines running in the passenger compartment as
part of the system. Keep in mind that some use rubber lines, and o rings,
etc... and I would need to know that all of those components were
compatible with what was being put in the system, I would hate to have a
leak in the system in the passenger compartment, and have propane or amonia
in the system Bad news, and I also believe it is illegal to use those
refrigerants in that situation. OSHA has strict regulations as to where
and how those refrigerants may be used. The old amonia refrigerators are
just not around any more.......for a reason.
With all the other refrigerants out there, I would have many other choices
before I would ever even consider amonia or propane....
I don't know why Rich was thinking of going from 134a to 12, but maybe its
because that was the old style and only what he knew was to be used
previously. Wouldn't be my first choice of a replacement. 134a should be
easily found, but I definately think someone is jerking his chain, or he
isn't doing the proper Google search. I'd mail him some, but I think it'd
be more of a pain in the A*S to try and ship it to him. Have to go ground,
and shipping a gas in a cylinder I'm sure has more regulations.
I apologize to everyone for my brain fart on the cost of R 12. Bill was
right, and it is for a 30LB jug, not per pound. Still cost prohibitive.
I would suggest to Rich, that if he can't find it in the auto parts store,
go to a garage and have them charge it, or......Google it again, and mail
order it.......
Using or suggesting that propane is a direct replacement for R 22 is the
most irresponsible advice I've ever heard.....Too much of a risk involved,
and certainly not an industry standard. Remember, all components are
designed for the chemical make up of a certain refrigerant, and I would
need way too much research to even consider putting propane into a system.
And never would if it would ever be exposed to people in any way-shape or
form...... JUST TOO SCARY for me........
--
Robb
Message posted via CarKB.com
http://www.carkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/jeep-cars/200506/1
#147
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 134a Refrigerant
JohnM wrote:
>> Shoot a little propane in the system and enjoy -
>
>It's not perfect but it'll work. IIRC, the oil in a R12 system is
>correct for propane too.. It's been a while since I looked into it.. Oh,
>I remember, I think- the vapor pressure is too high, adding 30%
>isobutane brings it right into line.
>
>If you were to do it, which I believe is a federal crime
>
>Propane is a direct replacement for R22- virtually identical pressure
>curves and, again, the oil is compatible.
>
>Anhydrous ammonia is another candidate. I am unaware of legal
>complications with anhydrous, as with all things bragging without proper
>learning is contraindicated.
OK here goes my 2 cents worth about propane and amonia......
1. what makes a good refrigerant in my opinion is its non toxicity rating
and its flamability rating, and of course it's boiling point and a few
other factors I won't get into now.
Propane is primarialy used in ULTRA Low temp applications in the industry,
and even then is a azotropic (mixed blend refrigerant).. Were talking
about minus 300 F' etc.... Thats the ONLY application that I would EVER
use it in, what the manufacturer intended it for.....or used in THEIR
system.
2. Anhydrous Amonia is also an excellent refrigerant, but ranks extremely
low in the safety areas as well. And it is primarily used only in
Industrial applications. Remember, your evaporator coil is part of the
cooling system, and there are lines running in the passenger compartment as
part of the system. Keep in mind that some use rubber lines, and o rings,
etc... and I would need to know that all of those components were
compatible with what was being put in the system, I would hate to have a
leak in the system in the passenger compartment, and have propane or amonia
in the system Bad news, and I also believe it is illegal to use those
refrigerants in that situation. OSHA has strict regulations as to where
and how those refrigerants may be used. The old amonia refrigerators are
just not around any more.......for a reason.
With all the other refrigerants out there, I would have many other choices
before I would ever even consider amonia or propane....
I don't know why Rich was thinking of going from 134a to 12, but maybe its
because that was the old style and only what he knew was to be used
previously. Wouldn't be my first choice of a replacement. 134a should be
easily found, but I definately think someone is jerking his chain, or he
isn't doing the proper Google search. I'd mail him some, but I think it'd
be more of a pain in the A*S to try and ship it to him. Have to go ground,
and shipping a gas in a cylinder I'm sure has more regulations.
I apologize to everyone for my brain fart on the cost of R 12. Bill was
right, and it is for a 30LB jug, not per pound. Still cost prohibitive.
I would suggest to Rich, that if he can't find it in the auto parts store,
go to a garage and have them charge it, or......Google it again, and mail
order it.......
Using or suggesting that propane is a direct replacement for R 22 is the
most irresponsible advice I've ever heard.....Too much of a risk involved,
and certainly not an industry standard. Remember, all components are
designed for the chemical make up of a certain refrigerant, and I would
need way too much research to even consider putting propane into a system.
And never would if it would ever be exposed to people in any way-shape or
form...... JUST TOO SCARY for me........
--
Robb
Message posted via CarKB.com
http://www.carkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/jeep-cars/200506/1
>> Shoot a little propane in the system and enjoy -
>
>It's not perfect but it'll work. IIRC, the oil in a R12 system is
>correct for propane too.. It's been a while since I looked into it.. Oh,
>I remember, I think- the vapor pressure is too high, adding 30%
>isobutane brings it right into line.
>
>If you were to do it, which I believe is a federal crime
>
>Propane is a direct replacement for R22- virtually identical pressure
>curves and, again, the oil is compatible.
>
>Anhydrous ammonia is another candidate. I am unaware of legal
>complications with anhydrous, as with all things bragging without proper
>learning is contraindicated.
OK here goes my 2 cents worth about propane and amonia......
1. what makes a good refrigerant in my opinion is its non toxicity rating
and its flamability rating, and of course it's boiling point and a few
other factors I won't get into now.
Propane is primarialy used in ULTRA Low temp applications in the industry,
and even then is a azotropic (mixed blend refrigerant).. Were talking
about minus 300 F' etc.... Thats the ONLY application that I would EVER
use it in, what the manufacturer intended it for.....or used in THEIR
system.
2. Anhydrous Amonia is also an excellent refrigerant, but ranks extremely
low in the safety areas as well. And it is primarily used only in
Industrial applications. Remember, your evaporator coil is part of the
cooling system, and there are lines running in the passenger compartment as
part of the system. Keep in mind that some use rubber lines, and o rings,
etc... and I would need to know that all of those components were
compatible with what was being put in the system, I would hate to have a
leak in the system in the passenger compartment, and have propane or amonia
in the system Bad news, and I also believe it is illegal to use those
refrigerants in that situation. OSHA has strict regulations as to where
and how those refrigerants may be used. The old amonia refrigerators are
just not around any more.......for a reason.
With all the other refrigerants out there, I would have many other choices
before I would ever even consider amonia or propane....
I don't know why Rich was thinking of going from 134a to 12, but maybe its
because that was the old style and only what he knew was to be used
previously. Wouldn't be my first choice of a replacement. 134a should be
easily found, but I definately think someone is jerking his chain, or he
isn't doing the proper Google search. I'd mail him some, but I think it'd
be more of a pain in the A*S to try and ship it to him. Have to go ground,
and shipping a gas in a cylinder I'm sure has more regulations.
I apologize to everyone for my brain fart on the cost of R 12. Bill was
right, and it is for a 30LB jug, not per pound. Still cost prohibitive.
I would suggest to Rich, that if he can't find it in the auto parts store,
go to a garage and have them charge it, or......Google it again, and mail
order it.......
Using or suggesting that propane is a direct replacement for R 22 is the
most irresponsible advice I've ever heard.....Too much of a risk involved,
and certainly not an industry standard. Remember, all components are
designed for the chemical make up of a certain refrigerant, and I would
need way too much research to even consider putting propane into a system.
And never would if it would ever be exposed to people in any way-shape or
form...... JUST TOO SCARY for me........
--
Robb
Message posted via CarKB.com
http://www.carkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/jeep-cars/200506/1
#148
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 134a Refrigerant
JohnM wrote:
>> Shoot a little propane in the system and enjoy -
>
>It's not perfect but it'll work. IIRC, the oil in a R12 system is
>correct for propane too.. It's been a while since I looked into it.. Oh,
>I remember, I think- the vapor pressure is too high, adding 30%
>isobutane brings it right into line.
>
>If you were to do it, which I believe is a federal crime
>
>Propane is a direct replacement for R22- virtually identical pressure
>curves and, again, the oil is compatible.
>
>Anhydrous ammonia is another candidate. I am unaware of legal
>complications with anhydrous, as with all things bragging without proper
>learning is contraindicated.
OK here goes my 2 cents worth about propane and amonia......
1. what makes a good refrigerant in my opinion is its non toxicity rating
and its flamability rating, and of course it's boiling point and a few
other factors I won't get into now.
Propane is primarialy used in ULTRA Low temp applications in the industry,
and even then is a azotropic (mixed blend refrigerant).. Were talking
about minus 300 F' etc.... Thats the ONLY application that I would EVER
use it in, what the manufacturer intended it for.....or used in THEIR
system.
2. Anhydrous Amonia is also an excellent refrigerant, but ranks extremely
low in the safety areas as well. And it is primarily used only in
Industrial applications. Remember, your evaporator coil is part of the
cooling system, and there are lines running in the passenger compartment as
part of the system. Keep in mind that some use rubber lines, and o rings,
etc... and I would need to know that all of those components were
compatible with what was being put in the system, I would hate to have a
leak in the system in the passenger compartment, and have propane or amonia
in the system Bad news, and I also believe it is illegal to use those
refrigerants in that situation. OSHA has strict regulations as to where
and how those refrigerants may be used. The old amonia refrigerators are
just not around any more.......for a reason.
With all the other refrigerants out there, I would have many other choices
before I would ever even consider amonia or propane....
I don't know why Rich was thinking of going from 134a to 12, but maybe its
because that was the old style and only what he knew was to be used
previously. Wouldn't be my first choice of a replacement. 134a should be
easily found, but I definately think someone is jerking his chain, or he
isn't doing the proper Google search. I'd mail him some, but I think it'd
be more of a pain in the A*S to try and ship it to him. Have to go ground,
and shipping a gas in a cylinder I'm sure has more regulations.
I apologize to everyone for my brain fart on the cost of R 12. Bill was
right, and it is for a 30LB jug, not per pound. Still cost prohibitive.
I would suggest to Rich, that if he can't find it in the auto parts store,
go to a garage and have them charge it, or......Google it again, and mail
order it.......
Using or suggesting that propane is a direct replacement for R 22 is the
most irresponsible advice I've ever heard.....Too much of a risk involved,
and certainly not an industry standard. Remember, all components are
designed for the chemical make up of a certain refrigerant, and I would
need way too much research to even consider putting propane into a system.
And never would if it would ever be exposed to people in any way-shape or
form...... JUST TOO SCARY for me........
--
Robb
Message posted via CarKB.com
http://www.carkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/jeep-cars/200506/1
>> Shoot a little propane in the system and enjoy -
>
>It's not perfect but it'll work. IIRC, the oil in a R12 system is
>correct for propane too.. It's been a while since I looked into it.. Oh,
>I remember, I think- the vapor pressure is too high, adding 30%
>isobutane brings it right into line.
>
>If you were to do it, which I believe is a federal crime
>
>Propane is a direct replacement for R22- virtually identical pressure
>curves and, again, the oil is compatible.
>
>Anhydrous ammonia is another candidate. I am unaware of legal
>complications with anhydrous, as with all things bragging without proper
>learning is contraindicated.
OK here goes my 2 cents worth about propane and amonia......
1. what makes a good refrigerant in my opinion is its non toxicity rating
and its flamability rating, and of course it's boiling point and a few
other factors I won't get into now.
Propane is primarialy used in ULTRA Low temp applications in the industry,
and even then is a azotropic (mixed blend refrigerant).. Were talking
about minus 300 F' etc.... Thats the ONLY application that I would EVER
use it in, what the manufacturer intended it for.....or used in THEIR
system.
2. Anhydrous Amonia is also an excellent refrigerant, but ranks extremely
low in the safety areas as well. And it is primarily used only in
Industrial applications. Remember, your evaporator coil is part of the
cooling system, and there are lines running in the passenger compartment as
part of the system. Keep in mind that some use rubber lines, and o rings,
etc... and I would need to know that all of those components were
compatible with what was being put in the system, I would hate to have a
leak in the system in the passenger compartment, and have propane or amonia
in the system Bad news, and I also believe it is illegal to use those
refrigerants in that situation. OSHA has strict regulations as to where
and how those refrigerants may be used. The old amonia refrigerators are
just not around any more.......for a reason.
With all the other refrigerants out there, I would have many other choices
before I would ever even consider amonia or propane....
I don't know why Rich was thinking of going from 134a to 12, but maybe its
because that was the old style and only what he knew was to be used
previously. Wouldn't be my first choice of a replacement. 134a should be
easily found, but I definately think someone is jerking his chain, or he
isn't doing the proper Google search. I'd mail him some, but I think it'd
be more of a pain in the A*S to try and ship it to him. Have to go ground,
and shipping a gas in a cylinder I'm sure has more regulations.
I apologize to everyone for my brain fart on the cost of R 12. Bill was
right, and it is for a 30LB jug, not per pound. Still cost prohibitive.
I would suggest to Rich, that if he can't find it in the auto parts store,
go to a garage and have them charge it, or......Google it again, and mail
order it.......
Using or suggesting that propane is a direct replacement for R 22 is the
most irresponsible advice I've ever heard.....Too much of a risk involved,
and certainly not an industry standard. Remember, all components are
designed for the chemical make up of a certain refrigerant, and I would
need way too much research to even consider putting propane into a system.
And never would if it would ever be exposed to people in any way-shape or
form...... JUST TOO SCARY for me........
--
Robb
Message posted via CarKB.com
http://www.carkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/jeep-cars/200506/1
#149
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 134a Refrigerant
JohnM wrote:
>> Shoot a little propane in the system and enjoy -
>
>It's not perfect but it'll work. IIRC, the oil in a R12 system is
>correct for propane too.. It's been a while since I looked into it.. Oh,
>I remember, I think- the vapor pressure is too high, adding 30%
>isobutane brings it right into line.
>
>If you were to do it, which I believe is a federal crime
>
>Propane is a direct replacement for R22- virtually identical pressure
>curves and, again, the oil is compatible.
>
>Anhydrous ammonia is another candidate. I am unaware of legal
>complications with anhydrous, as with all things bragging without proper
>learning is contraindicated.
OK here goes my 2 cents worth about propane and amonia......
1. what makes a good refrigerant in my opinion is its non toxicity rating
and its flamability rating, and of course it's boiling point and a few
other factors I won't get into now.
Propane is primarialy used in ULTRA Low temp applications in the industry,
and even then is a azotropic (mixed blend refrigerant).. Were talking
about minus 300 F' etc.... Thats the ONLY application that I would EVER
use it in, what the manufacturer intended it for.....or used in THEIR
system.
2. Anhydrous Amonia is also an excellent refrigerant, but ranks extremely
low in the safety areas as well. And it is primarily used only in
Industrial applications. Remember, your evaporator coil is part of the
cooling system, and there are lines running in the passenger compartment as
part of the system. Keep in mind that some use rubber lines, and o rings,
etc... and I would need to know that all of those components were
compatible with what was being put in the system, I would hate to have a
leak in the system in the passenger compartment, and have propane or amonia
in the system Bad news, and I also believe it is illegal to use those
refrigerants in that situation. OSHA has strict regulations as to where
and how those refrigerants may be used. The old amonia refrigerators are
just not around any more.......for a reason.
With all the other refrigerants out there, I would have many other choices
before I would ever even consider amonia or propane....
I don't know why Rich was thinking of going from 134a to 12, but maybe its
because that was the old style and only what he knew was to be used
previously. Wouldn't be my first choice of a replacement. 134a should be
easily found, but I definately think someone is jerking his chain, or he
isn't doing the proper Google search. I'd mail him some, but I think it'd
be more of a pain in the A*S to try and ship it to him. Have to go ground,
and shipping a gas in a cylinder I'm sure has more regulations.
I apologize to everyone for my brain fart on the cost of R 12. Bill was
right, and it is for a 30LB jug, not per pound. Still cost prohibitive.
I would suggest to Rich, that if he can't find it in the auto parts store,
go to a garage and have them charge it, or......Google it again, and mail
order it.......
Using or suggesting that propane is a direct replacement for R 22 is the
most irresponsible advice I've ever heard.....Too much of a risk involved,
and certainly not an industry standard. Remember, all components are
designed for the chemical make up of a certain refrigerant, and I would
need way too much research to even consider putting propane into a system.
And never would if it would ever be exposed to people in any way-shape or
form...... JUST TOO SCARY for me........
--
Robb
Message posted via CarKB.com
http://www.carkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/jeep-cars/200506/1
>> Shoot a little propane in the system and enjoy -
>
>It's not perfect but it'll work. IIRC, the oil in a R12 system is
>correct for propane too.. It's been a while since I looked into it.. Oh,
>I remember, I think- the vapor pressure is too high, adding 30%
>isobutane brings it right into line.
>
>If you were to do it, which I believe is a federal crime
>
>Propane is a direct replacement for R22- virtually identical pressure
>curves and, again, the oil is compatible.
>
>Anhydrous ammonia is another candidate. I am unaware of legal
>complications with anhydrous, as with all things bragging without proper
>learning is contraindicated.
OK here goes my 2 cents worth about propane and amonia......
1. what makes a good refrigerant in my opinion is its non toxicity rating
and its flamability rating, and of course it's boiling point and a few
other factors I won't get into now.
Propane is primarialy used in ULTRA Low temp applications in the industry,
and even then is a azotropic (mixed blend refrigerant).. Were talking
about minus 300 F' etc.... Thats the ONLY application that I would EVER
use it in, what the manufacturer intended it for.....or used in THEIR
system.
2. Anhydrous Amonia is also an excellent refrigerant, but ranks extremely
low in the safety areas as well. And it is primarily used only in
Industrial applications. Remember, your evaporator coil is part of the
cooling system, and there are lines running in the passenger compartment as
part of the system. Keep in mind that some use rubber lines, and o rings,
etc... and I would need to know that all of those components were
compatible with what was being put in the system, I would hate to have a
leak in the system in the passenger compartment, and have propane or amonia
in the system Bad news, and I also believe it is illegal to use those
refrigerants in that situation. OSHA has strict regulations as to where
and how those refrigerants may be used. The old amonia refrigerators are
just not around any more.......for a reason.
With all the other refrigerants out there, I would have many other choices
before I would ever even consider amonia or propane....
I don't know why Rich was thinking of going from 134a to 12, but maybe its
because that was the old style and only what he knew was to be used
previously. Wouldn't be my first choice of a replacement. 134a should be
easily found, but I definately think someone is jerking his chain, or he
isn't doing the proper Google search. I'd mail him some, but I think it'd
be more of a pain in the A*S to try and ship it to him. Have to go ground,
and shipping a gas in a cylinder I'm sure has more regulations.
I apologize to everyone for my brain fart on the cost of R 12. Bill was
right, and it is for a 30LB jug, not per pound. Still cost prohibitive.
I would suggest to Rich, that if he can't find it in the auto parts store,
go to a garage and have them charge it, or......Google it again, and mail
order it.......
Using or suggesting that propane is a direct replacement for R 22 is the
most irresponsible advice I've ever heard.....Too much of a risk involved,
and certainly not an industry standard. Remember, all components are
designed for the chemical make up of a certain refrigerant, and I would
need way too much research to even consider putting propane into a system.
And never would if it would ever be exposed to people in any way-shape or
form...... JUST TOO SCARY for me........
--
Robb
Message posted via CarKB.com
http://www.carkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/jeep-cars/200506/1
#150
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 134a Refrigerant
Jeff, just a FYI for you and the group on R 12.
I think you are mistaken about it being illegal. R 12 is ILLEGAL to
manufacture, not use. The Montreal Protocal dictates that R 12 can be
used, just not manufactured. And when all of the current supplies are used
up, thats it. Unfortunately for the USA, third world countries like mexico
are exempt from those rules. It is legal to manufacture R 12 in Mexico.
Thats why it's smuggled across the border. Its still legal to use, just no
make here or import. And it is legal to buy it on the open market. Its a
huge business for reclaim companies to recondition recovered refrigerant R
12, and resell it. Just some info to keep everyone on the right track.
Jeff Strickland wrote:
>>> I hadn't heard that there was any problem with making R134, and I am
>>> surprised that anybody is reporting trouble finding it.
>[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>> R12 is cheaper to produce than 134. It's pretty non-toxic too, which can't
>> be said for 134. Political creatures have made 12 expensive.
>
>It doesn't matter that it is cheaper to make, it is essentially illegal to
>use in the USA. R12 eats the ozone layer, or whatever, and is a banned
>substance. It also does not play well with others in the neighborhood, R134
>for example. If your system is designed to run on R134, it won't work right
>on R12 anyway, and if you want to convert your factory R12 system back to
>R12 after retrofitting it to R134, then it will be costly. You can't buy R12
>on the open market, so you'll have to find a crook that will sell it to you,
>or pay to evacuate your system and refill it. You are not going to top off a
>low R134 system with R12, if for no other reason than the fittings are
>different sizes.
--
Robb
Message posted via http://www.carkb.com
I think you are mistaken about it being illegal. R 12 is ILLEGAL to
manufacture, not use. The Montreal Protocal dictates that R 12 can be
used, just not manufactured. And when all of the current supplies are used
up, thats it. Unfortunately for the USA, third world countries like mexico
are exempt from those rules. It is legal to manufacture R 12 in Mexico.
Thats why it's smuggled across the border. Its still legal to use, just no
make here or import. And it is legal to buy it on the open market. Its a
huge business for reclaim companies to recondition recovered refrigerant R
12, and resell it. Just some info to keep everyone on the right track.
Jeff Strickland wrote:
>>> I hadn't heard that there was any problem with making R134, and I am
>>> surprised that anybody is reporting trouble finding it.
>[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>> R12 is cheaper to produce than 134. It's pretty non-toxic too, which can't
>> be said for 134. Political creatures have made 12 expensive.
>
>It doesn't matter that it is cheaper to make, it is essentially illegal to
>use in the USA. R12 eats the ozone layer, or whatever, and is a banned
>substance. It also does not play well with others in the neighborhood, R134
>for example. If your system is designed to run on R134, it won't work right
>on R12 anyway, and if you want to convert your factory R12 system back to
>R12 after retrofitting it to R134, then it will be costly. You can't buy R12
>on the open market, so you'll have to find a crook that will sell it to you,
>or pay to evacuate your system and refill it. You are not going to top off a
>low R134 system with R12, if for no other reason than the fittings are
>different sizes.
--
Robb
Message posted via http://www.carkb.com