bllsht

In message <3FEF56A7.7090200@usefirstinitialandlastnameATerol s.com>, "Simon
Juncal" wrote:

>Dave wrote:
>> HMMMM
>> AFAIK the 02 sensors are heated so they come online sooner (closed loop
>> happens faster) and possibly before the engine warms up. I am not 100% sure
>> with the Jeeps though and have not timed mine....yet! :-)
>
>Took me a sec to get what you were getting at until I saw what you
>quoted. I've got Mr. -------- filtered. One of the symptoms was that it
>idles fine for bit and then gets rough, like possibly when the computer
>starts using the O2 input. Anyone know how long roughly it takes for the
> ECU to go to closed loop?
>
> > "bllsht" <nospam@invaliddot.net> wrote in message
> > news:v8ctuv0vent44g1cc4372jk2vo73k4khjs@4ax.com...
> > > The O2 sensor is ignored until the engine is warmed up, junior.
>
>-------- are you locked up in your parents garage with your computer?
>You don't seem comfortable or familiar with interacting with real
>people. You strike me as one of those geeks who uses the anonymity of
>the internet as an opportunity to act like an ***. If you're an actual
>mechanic I feel sorry for anyone who brings their vehicles to you, but
>of course you don't act like this to them, you need the anonymity to
>make you bold.


What a shame to miss out on good info, simpy because you don't like who delivers
it. Oh well...

My customers don't have to come here and ask the same question fifteen different
ways. If they can't fix it, they bring it in and get it handled right.

Filter away, junior! LOL

Dave

Which Jeep do you have? I have only worked on FSJs and XJs. Most of the
FSJs do not have 02s, but most of the XJs do.
It could be that bllsht has good information to share and he is talking
sense!
And hey I am locked up in my parents' garage with a computer too! lol

The ECU will see that an engine is going to "normal" operating temperature
and after checking sensors will go into closed loop. The engine may not be
in the "normal" operating temperature at the time the 02 sensor comes
online in closed loop.
At least that was my understanding of most FI systems and it may only apply
to the newer style FI with more stringent emission standards. I am still
learning though. ;-)

from http://www.forparts.com/o-21.htm
"Recalling that an oxygen sensor will influence the air fuel mixture
preparation only when it has reached proper operating temperature (at least
350oC), it is essential to first ensure that the engine and sensor are warm
enough to allow operation in a "closed loop" condition. It may take as long
as 2 1/2 minutes after cold start for proper exhaust temperature to be
reached (somewhat shorter for heated-type oxygen sensors)"

Is this the information that you wanted to hear?

I reindexed my XJ 4.0 engine's distributor and got a smoother idle.
So many factors could make the engine run rough and one could be just some
bad injectors.
It is good to fix what you see is wrong first though and hope that is the
problem.
later,
dave

"Simon Juncal" <SPAMERSSUCK@usefirstinitialandlastnameATerols.com > wrote in
message
> Dave wrote:
> > HMMMM
> > AFAIK the 02 sensors are heated so they come online sooner (closed loop
> > happens faster) and possibly before the engine warms up. I am not 100%
sure
> > with the Jeeps though and have not timed mine....yet! :-)
>
> Took me a sec to get what you were getting at until I saw what you
> quoted. I've got Mr. -------- filtered. One of the symptoms was that it
> idles fine for bit and then gets rough, like possibly when the computer
> starts using the O2 input. Anyone know how long roughly it takes for the
> ECU to go to closed loop?
>
> > "bllsht" <nospam@invaliddot.net> wrote in message
> > news:v8ctuv0vent44g1cc4372jk2vo73k4khjs@4ax.com...
> > > The O2 sensor is ignored until the engine is warmed up, .
>
> -------- are you locked up in your parents garage with your computer? >

Dave

Which Jeep do you have? I have only worked on FSJs and XJs. Most of the
FSJs do not have 02s, but most of the XJs do.
It could be that bllsht has good information to share and he is talking
sense!
And hey I am locked up in my parents' garage with a computer too! lol

The ECU will see that an engine is going to "normal" operating temperature
and after checking sensors will go into closed loop. The engine may not be
in the "normal" operating temperature at the time the 02 sensor comes
online in closed loop.
At least that was my understanding of most FI systems and it may only apply
to the newer style FI with more stringent emission standards. I am still
learning though. ;-)

from http://www.forparts.com/o-21.htm
"Recalling that an oxygen sensor will influence the air fuel mixture
preparation only when it has reached proper operating temperature (at least
350oC), it is essential to first ensure that the engine and sensor are warm
enough to allow operation in a "closed loop" condition. It may take as long
as 2 1/2 minutes after cold start for proper exhaust temperature to be
reached (somewhat shorter for heated-type oxygen sensors)"

Is this the information that you wanted to hear?

I reindexed my XJ 4.0 engine's distributor and got a smoother idle.
So many factors could make the engine run rough and one could be just some
bad injectors.
It is good to fix what you see is wrong first though and hope that is the
problem.
later,
dave

"Simon Juncal" <SPAMERSSUCK@usefirstinitialandlastnameATerols.com > wrote in
message
> Dave wrote:
> > HMMMM
> > AFAIK the 02 sensors are heated so they come online sooner (closed loop
> > happens faster) and possibly before the engine warms up. I am not 100%
sure
> > with the Jeeps though and have not timed mine....yet! :-)
>
> Took me a sec to get what you were getting at until I saw what you
> quoted. I've got Mr. -------- filtered. One of the symptoms was that it
> idles fine for bit and then gets rough, like possibly when the computer
> starts using the O2 input. Anyone know how long roughly it takes for the
> ECU to go to closed loop?
>
> > "bllsht" <nospam@invaliddot.net> wrote in message
> > news:v8ctuv0vent44g1cc4372jk2vo73k4khjs@4ax.com...
> > > The O2 sensor is ignored until the engine is warmed up, .
>
> -------- are you locked up in your parents garage with your computer? >

Dave

Which Jeep do you have? I have only worked on FSJs and XJs. Most of the
FSJs do not have 02s, but most of the XJs do.
It could be that bllsht has good information to share and he is talking
sense!
And hey I am locked up in my parents' garage with a computer too! lol

The ECU will see that an engine is going to "normal" operating temperature
and after checking sensors will go into closed loop. The engine may not be
in the "normal" operating temperature at the time the 02 sensor comes
online in closed loop.
At least that was my understanding of most FI systems and it may only apply
to the newer style FI with more stringent emission standards. I am still
learning though. ;-)

from http://www.forparts.com/o-21.htm
"Recalling that an oxygen sensor will influence the air fuel mixture
preparation only when it has reached proper operating temperature (at least
350oC), it is essential to first ensure that the engine and sensor are warm
enough to allow operation in a "closed loop" condition. It may take as long
as 2 1/2 minutes after cold start for proper exhaust temperature to be
reached (somewhat shorter for heated-type oxygen sensors)"

Is this the information that you wanted to hear?

I reindexed my XJ 4.0 engine's distributor and got a smoother idle.
So many factors could make the engine run rough and one could be just some
bad injectors.
It is good to fix what you see is wrong first though and hope that is the
problem.
later,
dave

"Simon Juncal" <SPAMERSSUCK@usefirstinitialandlastnameATerols.com > wrote in
message
> Dave wrote:
> > HMMMM
> > AFAIK the 02 sensors are heated so they come online sooner (closed loop
> > happens faster) and possibly before the engine warms up. I am not 100%
sure
> > with the Jeeps though and have not timed mine....yet! :-)
>
> Took me a sec to get what you were getting at until I saw what you
> quoted. I've got Mr. -------- filtered. One of the symptoms was that it
> idles fine for bit and then gets rough, like possibly when the computer
> starts using the O2 input. Anyone know how long roughly it takes for the
> ECU to go to closed loop?
>
> > "bllsht" <nospam@invaliddot.net> wrote in message
> > news:v8ctuv0vent44g1cc4372jk2vo73k4khjs@4ax.com...
> > > The O2 sensor is ignored until the engine is warmed up, .
>
> -------- are you locked up in your parents garage with your computer? >

Simon Juncal

Dave wrote:
> Which Jeep do you have? I have only worked on FSJs and XJs. Most of the
> FSJs do not have 02s, but most of the XJs do.
> It could be that bllsht has good information to share and he is talking
> sense!
> And hey I am locked up in my parents' garage with a computer too! lol

There are plenty of people here being helpful, and sharing what they
know (such as yourself). All he does is contradict people without
actually adding information. Instead of saying "no that's not how it
works; it works like this" he just says "no you're wrong". He's also
answered a number of people's questions with assholian "take it too a
mechanic" answers. Frankly being a mechanic is nothing worthy of getting
all arrogant about.

Notice that he hasn't offered an opinion on what my problem might be?
Just contradiction, and his little "junior" insult attempt, sad really.

> The ECU will see that an engine is going to "normal" operating temperature
> and after checking sensors will go into closed loop. The engine may not be
> in the "normal" operating temperature at the time the 02 sensor comes
> online in closed loop.
> At least that was my understanding of most FI systems and it may only apply
> to the newer style FI with more stringent emission standards. I am still
> learning though. ;-)

So am I obviously.

--
Simon
"I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein

Simon Juncal

Dave wrote:
> Which Jeep do you have? I have only worked on FSJs and XJs. Most of the
> FSJs do not have 02s, but most of the XJs do.
> It could be that bllsht has good information to share and he is talking
> sense!
> And hey I am locked up in my parents' garage with a computer too! lol

There are plenty of people here being helpful, and sharing what they
know (such as yourself). All he does is contradict people without
actually adding information. Instead of saying "no that's not how it
works; it works like this" he just says "no you're wrong". He's also
answered a number of people's questions with assholian "take it too a
mechanic" answers. Frankly being a mechanic is nothing worthy of getting
all arrogant about.

Notice that he hasn't offered an opinion on what my problem might be?
Just contradiction, and his little "junior" insult attempt, sad really.

> The ECU will see that an engine is going to "normal" operating temperature
> and after checking sensors will go into closed loop. The engine may not be
> in the "normal" operating temperature at the time the 02 sensor comes
> online in closed loop.
> At least that was my understanding of most FI systems and it may only apply
> to the newer style FI with more stringent emission standards. I am still
> learning though. ;-)

So am I obviously.

--
Simon
"I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein

Simon Juncal

Dave wrote:
> Which Jeep do you have? I have only worked on FSJs and XJs. Most of the
> FSJs do not have 02s, but most of the XJs do.
> It could be that bllsht has good information to share and he is talking
> sense!
> And hey I am locked up in my parents' garage with a computer too! lol

There are plenty of people here being helpful, and sharing what they
know (such as yourself). All he does is contradict people without
actually adding information. Instead of saying "no that's not how it
works; it works like this" he just says "no you're wrong". He's also
answered a number of people's questions with assholian "take it too a
mechanic" answers. Frankly being a mechanic is nothing worthy of getting
all arrogant about.

Notice that he hasn't offered an opinion on what my problem might be?
Just contradiction, and his little "junior" insult attempt, sad really.

> The ECU will see that an engine is going to "normal" operating temperature
> and after checking sensors will go into closed loop. The engine may not be
> in the "normal" operating temperature at the time the 02 sensor comes
> online in closed loop.
> At least that was my understanding of most FI systems and it may only apply
> to the newer style FI with more stringent emission standards. I am still
> learning though. ;-)

So am I obviously.

--
Simon
"I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein

Mike Romain

If you can get any carb with a timer choke to start and come up to
operating temperature without needing input on the gas pedal you are a
wizard.

That just don't happen unless you are at the 'exact' temperature and
humidity as the jerk that designed that **** poor excuse for a choke was
at when he figured it was an OK thing to use.

Probably the same turkey that designed the CJ 'heater' if I can use the
term 'heat' so loosely....

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Simon Juncal wrote:
>
> Okay I know my old exhaust manifold is leaking, and is at it's worst
> when cold so I'm wondering if a leaking manifold could fool the O2
> sensor and cause the Cater stepper motor to go too rich, until the
> engine gets a little warm (at which point the manifold has expanded from
> the heat and sealed things up a little better) and then leans out.
>
> Would an exhaust leak before the O2 sensor cause rich or lean? In other
> words would the sensor detect MORE O2 (lean) causing the computer to go
> too rich?
>
> I'm about to get out and check the stepper metering pins to make sure
> I've actually got a rich condition (pins all the way forward) and watch
> it to see if it's backing down as the engine warms up.
>
> --
> Simon
> "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein

Mike Romain

If you can get any carb with a timer choke to start and come up to
operating temperature without needing input on the gas pedal you are a
wizard.

That just don't happen unless you are at the 'exact' temperature and
humidity as the jerk that designed that **** poor excuse for a choke was
at when he figured it was an OK thing to use.

Probably the same turkey that designed the CJ 'heater' if I can use the
term 'heat' so loosely....

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Simon Juncal wrote:
>
> Okay I know my old exhaust manifold is leaking, and is at it's worst
> when cold so I'm wondering if a leaking manifold could fool the O2
> sensor and cause the Cater stepper motor to go too rich, until the
> engine gets a little warm (at which point the manifold has expanded from
> the heat and sealed things up a little better) and then leans out.
>
> Would an exhaust leak before the O2 sensor cause rich or lean? In other
> words would the sensor detect MORE O2 (lean) causing the computer to go
> too rich?
>
> I'm about to get out and check the stepper metering pins to make sure
> I've actually got a rich condition (pins all the way forward) and watch
> it to see if it's backing down as the engine warms up.
>
> --
> Simon
> "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein

Mike Romain

If you can get any carb with a timer choke to start and come up to
operating temperature without needing input on the gas pedal you are a
wizard.

That just don't happen unless you are at the 'exact' temperature and
humidity as the jerk that designed that **** poor excuse for a choke was
at when he figured it was an OK thing to use.

Probably the same turkey that designed the CJ 'heater' if I can use the
term 'heat' so loosely....

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Simon Juncal wrote:
>
> Okay I know my old exhaust manifold is leaking, and is at it's worst
> when cold so I'm wondering if a leaking manifold could fool the O2
> sensor and cause the Cater stepper motor to go too rich, until the
> engine gets a little warm (at which point the manifold has expanded from
> the heat and sealed things up a little better) and then leans out.
>
> Would an exhaust leak before the O2 sensor cause rich or lean? In other
> words would the sensor detect MORE O2 (lean) causing the computer to go
> too rich?
>
> I'm about to get out and check the stepper metering pins to make sure
> I've actually got a rich condition (pins all the way forward) and watch
> it to see if it's backing down as the engine warms up.
>
> --
> Simon
> "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein