T18/Dana300 swap update
02-12-2004, 08:39 AM
#21
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: T18/Dana300 swap update
Ok,
Here's my thoughtprocess. The flywheel is a flat disk (in that CJ) so
when I have a correct working clutch then it should work. correct ?
I can imagine the linkage doesn't have enough throw and when the wrong
clutch is used it doesn't go to the point of "maximum release"
But I already messed with that, changing the linkage so it has more
throw. But still it does the same thing.
I am just wondering if the place where I got the clutch I have now maybe
gave me a clutch that was wrong and that maybe the clutchdisk is too
"thick" for the pressure plate used ?
Anyway, I am going to take the Jeep apart (again). What I am wondering
though ..... when I put a new clutch in and again it isn't working ....
can I return it and say "this one isn't working for the application I
told you I needed it for. (or is it like, you bought it...it's yours.
> That's what I thought too, and so did several clutch experts, including a
> NASCAR engine builder. Turned out not to be the linkage or the fork at all
> (replaced both with new - for no benefit). Using a clutch for a '79 CJ-7 with
> T-150 tranny solved everything. (Same as the clutch for a J20 with Jeep T-18)
>
>
>
> Robert Bills
> KG6LMV
> Orange County CA
02-12-2004, 08:39 AM
#22
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: T18/Dana300 swap update
Ok,
Here's my thoughtprocess. The flywheel is a flat disk (in that CJ) so
when I have a correct working clutch then it should work. correct ?
I can imagine the linkage doesn't have enough throw and when the wrong
clutch is used it doesn't go to the point of "maximum release"
But I already messed with that, changing the linkage so it has more
throw. But still it does the same thing.
I am just wondering if the place where I got the clutch I have now maybe
gave me a clutch that was wrong and that maybe the clutchdisk is too
"thick" for the pressure plate used ?
Anyway, I am going to take the Jeep apart (again). What I am wondering
though ..... when I put a new clutch in and again it isn't working ....
can I return it and say "this one isn't working for the application I
told you I needed it for. (or is it like, you bought it...it's yours.
> That's what I thought too, and so did several clutch experts, including a
> NASCAR engine builder. Turned out not to be the linkage or the fork at all
> (replaced both with new - for no benefit). Using a clutch for a '79 CJ-7 with
> T-150 tranny solved everything. (Same as the clutch for a J20 with Jeep T-18)
>
>
>
> Robert Bills
> KG6LMV
> Orange County CA
02-12-2004, 09:43 AM
#23
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: T18/Dana300 swap update
>May I ask what the price is of the clutch you
>bought ?
Can't remember now, but less than $175 (I get a mechanic's discount from my
parts man). However, Luk makes good stuff and $175 retail is not out of line
for a quality clutch assembly. Did you check prices for the same part # at
Summit Racing? Caveat: Although Summit might be less, due to the difficulty
you are having in diagnosing your problem, you might be better off buying your
parts locally, even if a few $ more, so you can take advantage of your
supplier's expertise.
(As a matter of principle, I am opposed to soliciting free advice from local
merchants/repair experts and taking their time, only to buy "cheap" somewhere
else.)
As for returning the clutch after install - only if your parts man will take it
back on "warranty" and label it "defective" so he can get a credit from his
supplier.
If your are going to pull the clutch one more time - set the clutch assembly
you remove on a workbench next to one spec'ed for a '79 with T150 tranny and
look to see if they are the same "height" off the bench. If the height is
different, or there are any other visible differences, install the unit for a
'79. If they are the same, you have a different problem and you may want to
return the unused clutch.
It is possible, although unlikely that you have a bent or warped clutch fork.
When that was suggested to me, I looked at 5 or 6 used ones and although none
appeared to be "bent," none of them exactly matched any of the others making it
impossible to know which was warped, if any, or whether any/all/none were
outside specs. If you suspect a warped fork, see if you can compare yours to a
new fork.
Finally, did you have your flywheel resurfaced? If not, take it to the machine
shop and have it done.
Robert Bills
KG6LMV
Orange County CA
http://www.outdoorwire.com/4x4/jeep/...p-l/billsr.htm
http://www.RobertBills.com
>bought ?
Can't remember now, but less than $175 (I get a mechanic's discount from my
parts man). However, Luk makes good stuff and $175 retail is not out of line
for a quality clutch assembly. Did you check prices for the same part # at
Summit Racing? Caveat: Although Summit might be less, due to the difficulty
you are having in diagnosing your problem, you might be better off buying your
parts locally, even if a few $ more, so you can take advantage of your
supplier's expertise.
(As a matter of principle, I am opposed to soliciting free advice from local
merchants/repair experts and taking their time, only to buy "cheap" somewhere
else.)
As for returning the clutch after install - only if your parts man will take it
back on "warranty" and label it "defective" so he can get a credit from his
supplier.
If your are going to pull the clutch one more time - set the clutch assembly
you remove on a workbench next to one spec'ed for a '79 with T150 tranny and
look to see if they are the same "height" off the bench. If the height is
different, or there are any other visible differences, install the unit for a
'79. If they are the same, you have a different problem and you may want to
return the unused clutch.
It is possible, although unlikely that you have a bent or warped clutch fork.
When that was suggested to me, I looked at 5 or 6 used ones and although none
appeared to be "bent," none of them exactly matched any of the others making it
impossible to know which was warped, if any, or whether any/all/none were
outside specs. If you suspect a warped fork, see if you can compare yours to a
new fork.
Finally, did you have your flywheel resurfaced? If not, take it to the machine
shop and have it done.
Robert Bills
KG6LMV
Orange County CA
http://www.outdoorwire.com/4x4/jeep/...p-l/billsr.htm
http://www.RobertBills.com
02-12-2004, 09:43 AM
#24
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: T18/Dana300 swap update
>May I ask what the price is of the clutch you
>bought ?
Can't remember now, but less than $175 (I get a mechanic's discount from my
parts man). However, Luk makes good stuff and $175 retail is not out of line
for a quality clutch assembly. Did you check prices for the same part # at
Summit Racing? Caveat: Although Summit might be less, due to the difficulty
you are having in diagnosing your problem, you might be better off buying your
parts locally, even if a few $ more, so you can take advantage of your
supplier's expertise.
(As a matter of principle, I am opposed to soliciting free advice from local
merchants/repair experts and taking their time, only to buy "cheap" somewhere
else.)
As for returning the clutch after install - only if your parts man will take it
back on "warranty" and label it "defective" so he can get a credit from his
supplier.
If your are going to pull the clutch one more time - set the clutch assembly
you remove on a workbench next to one spec'ed for a '79 with T150 tranny and
look to see if they are the same "height" off the bench. If the height is
different, or there are any other visible differences, install the unit for a
'79. If they are the same, you have a different problem and you may want to
return the unused clutch.
It is possible, although unlikely that you have a bent or warped clutch fork.
When that was suggested to me, I looked at 5 or 6 used ones and although none
appeared to be "bent," none of them exactly matched any of the others making it
impossible to know which was warped, if any, or whether any/all/none were
outside specs. If you suspect a warped fork, see if you can compare yours to a
new fork.
Finally, did you have your flywheel resurfaced? If not, take it to the machine
shop and have it done.
Robert Bills
KG6LMV
Orange County CA
http://www.outdoorwire.com/4x4/jeep/...p-l/billsr.htm
http://www.RobertBills.com
>bought ?
Can't remember now, but less than $175 (I get a mechanic's discount from my
parts man). However, Luk makes good stuff and $175 retail is not out of line
for a quality clutch assembly. Did you check prices for the same part # at
Summit Racing? Caveat: Although Summit might be less, due to the difficulty
you are having in diagnosing your problem, you might be better off buying your
parts locally, even if a few $ more, so you can take advantage of your
supplier's expertise.
(As a matter of principle, I am opposed to soliciting free advice from local
merchants/repair experts and taking their time, only to buy "cheap" somewhere
else.)
As for returning the clutch after install - only if your parts man will take it
back on "warranty" and label it "defective" so he can get a credit from his
supplier.
If your are going to pull the clutch one more time - set the clutch assembly
you remove on a workbench next to one spec'ed for a '79 with T150 tranny and
look to see if they are the same "height" off the bench. If the height is
different, or there are any other visible differences, install the unit for a
'79. If they are the same, you have a different problem and you may want to
return the unused clutch.
It is possible, although unlikely that you have a bent or warped clutch fork.
When that was suggested to me, I looked at 5 or 6 used ones and although none
appeared to be "bent," none of them exactly matched any of the others making it
impossible to know which was warped, if any, or whether any/all/none were
outside specs. If you suspect a warped fork, see if you can compare yours to a
new fork.
Finally, did you have your flywheel resurfaced? If not, take it to the machine
shop and have it done.
Robert Bills
KG6LMV
Orange County CA
http://www.outdoorwire.com/4x4/jeep/...p-l/billsr.htm
http://www.RobertBills.com
02-12-2004, 09:43 AM
#25
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: T18/Dana300 swap update
>May I ask what the price is of the clutch you
>bought ?
Can't remember now, but less than $175 (I get a mechanic's discount from my
parts man). However, Luk makes good stuff and $175 retail is not out of line
for a quality clutch assembly. Did you check prices for the same part # at
Summit Racing? Caveat: Although Summit might be less, due to the difficulty
you are having in diagnosing your problem, you might be better off buying your
parts locally, even if a few $ more, so you can take advantage of your
supplier's expertise.
(As a matter of principle, I am opposed to soliciting free advice from local
merchants/repair experts and taking their time, only to buy "cheap" somewhere
else.)
As for returning the clutch after install - only if your parts man will take it
back on "warranty" and label it "defective" so he can get a credit from his
supplier.
If your are going to pull the clutch one more time - set the clutch assembly
you remove on a workbench next to one spec'ed for a '79 with T150 tranny and
look to see if they are the same "height" off the bench. If the height is
different, or there are any other visible differences, install the unit for a
'79. If they are the same, you have a different problem and you may want to
return the unused clutch.
It is possible, although unlikely that you have a bent or warped clutch fork.
When that was suggested to me, I looked at 5 or 6 used ones and although none
appeared to be "bent," none of them exactly matched any of the others making it
impossible to know which was warped, if any, or whether any/all/none were
outside specs. If you suspect a warped fork, see if you can compare yours to a
new fork.
Finally, did you have your flywheel resurfaced? If not, take it to the machine
shop and have it done.
Robert Bills
KG6LMV
Orange County CA
http://www.outdoorwire.com/4x4/jeep/...p-l/billsr.htm
http://www.RobertBills.com
>bought ?
Can't remember now, but less than $175 (I get a mechanic's discount from my
parts man). However, Luk makes good stuff and $175 retail is not out of line
for a quality clutch assembly. Did you check prices for the same part # at
Summit Racing? Caveat: Although Summit might be less, due to the difficulty
you are having in diagnosing your problem, you might be better off buying your
parts locally, even if a few $ more, so you can take advantage of your
supplier's expertise.
(As a matter of principle, I am opposed to soliciting free advice from local
merchants/repair experts and taking their time, only to buy "cheap" somewhere
else.)
As for returning the clutch after install - only if your parts man will take it
back on "warranty" and label it "defective" so he can get a credit from his
supplier.
If your are going to pull the clutch one more time - set the clutch assembly
you remove on a workbench next to one spec'ed for a '79 with T150 tranny and
look to see if they are the same "height" off the bench. If the height is
different, or there are any other visible differences, install the unit for a
'79. If they are the same, you have a different problem and you may want to
return the unused clutch.
It is possible, although unlikely that you have a bent or warped clutch fork.
When that was suggested to me, I looked at 5 or 6 used ones and although none
appeared to be "bent," none of them exactly matched any of the others making it
impossible to know which was warped, if any, or whether any/all/none were
outside specs. If you suspect a warped fork, see if you can compare yours to a
new fork.
Finally, did you have your flywheel resurfaced? If not, take it to the machine
shop and have it done.
Robert Bills
KG6LMV
Orange County CA
http://www.outdoorwire.com/4x4/jeep/...p-l/billsr.htm
http://www.RobertBills.com
02-12-2004, 10:08 AM
#26
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: T18/Dana300 swap update
> Can't remember now, but less than $175 (I get a mechanic's discount from my
> parts man). However, Luk makes good stuff and $175 retail is not out of line
> for a quality clutch assembly. Did you check prices for the same part # at
> Summit Racing? Caveat: Although Summit might be less, due to the difficulty
> you are having in diagnosing your problem, you might be better off buying your
> parts locally, even if a few $ more, so you can take advantage of your
> supplier's expertise.
> (As a matter of principle, I am opposed to soliciting free advice from local
> merchants/repair experts and taking their time, only to buy "cheap" somewhere
> else.)
Oh I don't even mind paying the guy that looked at my clutch labour and
a tip and buy the new clutch from him IF it is going to work.
I don't even mind buying the brand he likes, even if it is a different
style (diafragm instead of the 3 finger type). If it is going to work I
am wulling to spend a few extra $$$. (the swap was already expensive
enough, so you probably see my point. However paying 500-600 for have
someone else do it (price is that high because it is a conversion /
custom job) is a little too much. Besides, the thing is my hobby.. so I
want to understand what I am driving.
> As for returning the clutch after install - only if your parts man will take it
> back on "warranty" and label it "defective" so he can get a credit from his
> supplier.
right: But when I ask the parts store that I want a clutch for that
application, 258 - T150 bellhousing - Borg Warner T18 for a '79 CJ5 then
I should get a clutch that works ... or get the "we don't carry that"
answer, right ?
> If your are going to pull the clutch one more time - set the clutch assembly
I hope it is one more time.... ;-)
> you remove on a workbench next to one spec'ed for a '79 with T150 tranny and
> look to see if they are the same "height" off the bench. If the height is
do you mean the height between the friction surface of the pressure
plate and the bench ? Uhm when the clutch is off the flywheel there's
no way you canmeasure that.. correct ? or do you mean the overall height ?
> different, or there are any other visible differences, install the unit for a
> '79. If they are the same, you have a different problem and you may want to
> return the unused clutch.
ahhh so if the clutch looks exactly the same, I have another problem..
gotcha.
> It is possible, although unlikely that you have a bent or warped clutch fork.
> When that was suggested to me, I looked at 5 or 6 used ones and although none
> appeared to be "bent," none of them exactly matched any of the others making it
> impossible to know which was warped, if any, or whether any/all/none were
> outside specs. If you suspect a warped fork, see if you can compare yours to a
> new fork.
Ok, I can check with another clutchfork. However, when the T150 was
still in there it worked just fine.
> Finally, did you have your flywheel resurfaced? If not, take it to the machine
> shop and have it done.
yes I had it resurfaced before I put everything back together.
thanks for your suggestions. It is better to have more tips/tricks and
things I can look at before throwing money at parts I don't need.
I must say this is a really good news groups. Helped me a lot with
things I had in the past and I am sure it will too with this "tranny thing".
thanks,
Ron
>
> Robert Bills
> KG6LMV
> Orange County CA
>
> http://www.outdoorwire.com/4x4/jeep/...p-l/billsr.htm
> http://www.RobertBills.com
02-12-2004, 10:08 AM
#27
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: T18/Dana300 swap update
> Can't remember now, but less than $175 (I get a mechanic's discount from my
> parts man). However, Luk makes good stuff and $175 retail is not out of line
> for a quality clutch assembly. Did you check prices for the same part # at
> Summit Racing? Caveat: Although Summit might be less, due to the difficulty
> you are having in diagnosing your problem, you might be better off buying your
> parts locally, even if a few $ more, so you can take advantage of your
> supplier's expertise.
> (As a matter of principle, I am opposed to soliciting free advice from local
> merchants/repair experts and taking their time, only to buy "cheap" somewhere
> else.)
Oh I don't even mind paying the guy that looked at my clutch labour and
a tip and buy the new clutch from him IF it is going to work.
I don't even mind buying the brand he likes, even if it is a different
style (diafragm instead of the 3 finger type). If it is going to work I
am wulling to spend a few extra $$$. (the swap was already expensive
enough, so you probably see my point. However paying 500-600 for have
someone else do it (price is that high because it is a conversion /
custom job) is a little too much. Besides, the thing is my hobby.. so I
want to understand what I am driving.
> As for returning the clutch after install - only if your parts man will take it
> back on "warranty" and label it "defective" so he can get a credit from his
> supplier.
right: But when I ask the parts store that I want a clutch for that
application, 258 - T150 bellhousing - Borg Warner T18 for a '79 CJ5 then
I should get a clutch that works ... or get the "we don't carry that"
answer, right ?
> If your are going to pull the clutch one more time - set the clutch assembly
I hope it is one more time.... ;-)
> you remove on a workbench next to one spec'ed for a '79 with T150 tranny and
> look to see if they are the same "height" off the bench. If the height is
do you mean the height between the friction surface of the pressure
plate and the bench ? Uhm when the clutch is off the flywheel there's
no way you canmeasure that.. correct ? or do you mean the overall height ?
> different, or there are any other visible differences, install the unit for a
> '79. If they are the same, you have a different problem and you may want to
> return the unused clutch.
ahhh so if the clutch looks exactly the same, I have another problem..
gotcha.
> It is possible, although unlikely that you have a bent or warped clutch fork.
> When that was suggested to me, I looked at 5 or 6 used ones and although none
> appeared to be "bent," none of them exactly matched any of the others making it
> impossible to know which was warped, if any, or whether any/all/none were
> outside specs. If you suspect a warped fork, see if you can compare yours to a
> new fork.
Ok, I can check with another clutchfork. However, when the T150 was
still in there it worked just fine.
> Finally, did you have your flywheel resurfaced? If not, take it to the machine
> shop and have it done.
yes I had it resurfaced before I put everything back together.
thanks for your suggestions. It is better to have more tips/tricks and
things I can look at before throwing money at parts I don't need.
I must say this is a really good news groups. Helped me a lot with
things I had in the past and I am sure it will too with this "tranny thing".
thanks,
Ron
>
> Robert Bills
> KG6LMV
> Orange County CA
>
> http://www.outdoorwire.com/4x4/jeep/...p-l/billsr.htm
> http://www.RobertBills.com
02-12-2004, 10:08 AM
#28
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: T18/Dana300 swap update
> Can't remember now, but less than $175 (I get a mechanic's discount from my
> parts man). However, Luk makes good stuff and $175 retail is not out of line
> for a quality clutch assembly. Did you check prices for the same part # at
> Summit Racing? Caveat: Although Summit might be less, due to the difficulty
> you are having in diagnosing your problem, you might be better off buying your
> parts locally, even if a few $ more, so you can take advantage of your
> supplier's expertise.
> (As a matter of principle, I am opposed to soliciting free advice from local
> merchants/repair experts and taking their time, only to buy "cheap" somewhere
> else.)
Oh I don't even mind paying the guy that looked at my clutch labour and
a tip and buy the new clutch from him IF it is going to work.
I don't even mind buying the brand he likes, even if it is a different
style (diafragm instead of the 3 finger type). If it is going to work I
am wulling to spend a few extra $$$. (the swap was already expensive
enough, so you probably see my point. However paying 500-600 for have
someone else do it (price is that high because it is a conversion /
custom job) is a little too much. Besides, the thing is my hobby.. so I
want to understand what I am driving.
> As for returning the clutch after install - only if your parts man will take it
> back on "warranty" and label it "defective" so he can get a credit from his
> supplier.
right: But when I ask the parts store that I want a clutch for that
application, 258 - T150 bellhousing - Borg Warner T18 for a '79 CJ5 then
I should get a clutch that works ... or get the "we don't carry that"
answer, right ?
> If your are going to pull the clutch one more time - set the clutch assembly
I hope it is one more time.... ;-)
> you remove on a workbench next to one spec'ed for a '79 with T150 tranny and
> look to see if they are the same "height" off the bench. If the height is
do you mean the height between the friction surface of the pressure
plate and the bench ? Uhm when the clutch is off the flywheel there's
no way you canmeasure that.. correct ? or do you mean the overall height ?
> different, or there are any other visible differences, install the unit for a
> '79. If they are the same, you have a different problem and you may want to
> return the unused clutch.
ahhh so if the clutch looks exactly the same, I have another problem..
gotcha.
> It is possible, although unlikely that you have a bent or warped clutch fork.
> When that was suggested to me, I looked at 5 or 6 used ones and although none
> appeared to be "bent," none of them exactly matched any of the others making it
> impossible to know which was warped, if any, or whether any/all/none were
> outside specs. If you suspect a warped fork, see if you can compare yours to a
> new fork.
Ok, I can check with another clutchfork. However, when the T150 was
still in there it worked just fine.
> Finally, did you have your flywheel resurfaced? If not, take it to the machine
> shop and have it done.
yes I had it resurfaced before I put everything back together.
thanks for your suggestions. It is better to have more tips/tricks and
things I can look at before throwing money at parts I don't need.
I must say this is a really good news groups. Helped me a lot with
things I had in the past and I am sure it will too with this "tranny thing".
thanks,
Ron
>
> Robert Bills
> KG6LMV
> Orange County CA
>
> http://www.outdoorwire.com/4x4/jeep/...p-l/billsr.htm
> http://www.RobertBills.com
02-12-2004, 12:12 PM
#29
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: T18/Dana300 swap update
>when I ask the parts store that I want a clutch for that
>application, 258 - T150 bellhousing - Borg Warner T18 for a '79 CJ5 then
> I should get a clutch that works ... or get the "we don't carry that"
>answer, right ?
Ask for a clutch for a '79 CJ-7 with T-150 transmission. Since there were both
V-8 and inline 6 engines in '79, you might want to confirm that the clutch part
numbers are the same for both engines. My recollection is that they are the
same. If you ask for what you actually have (258/T-150 Bellhousing and T-18
tranny), the parts guy won't have a clue what you are talking about because
there are no such animals in his parts book.
>do you mean the overall height ?
yes.
Robert Bills
KG6LMV
Orange County CA
http://www.outdoorwire.com/4x4/jeep/...p-l/billsr.htm
http://www.RobertBills.com
>application, 258 - T150 bellhousing - Borg Warner T18 for a '79 CJ5 then
> I should get a clutch that works ... or get the "we don't carry that"
>answer, right ?
Ask for a clutch for a '79 CJ-7 with T-150 transmission. Since there were both
V-8 and inline 6 engines in '79, you might want to confirm that the clutch part
numbers are the same for both engines. My recollection is that they are the
same. If you ask for what you actually have (258/T-150 Bellhousing and T-18
tranny), the parts guy won't have a clue what you are talking about because
there are no such animals in his parts book.
>do you mean the overall height ?
yes.
Robert Bills
KG6LMV
Orange County CA
http://www.outdoorwire.com/4x4/jeep/...p-l/billsr.htm
http://www.RobertBills.com
02-12-2004, 12:12 PM
#30
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: T18/Dana300 swap update
>when I ask the parts store that I want a clutch for that
>application, 258 - T150 bellhousing - Borg Warner T18 for a '79 CJ5 then
> I should get a clutch that works ... or get the "we don't carry that"
>answer, right ?
Ask for a clutch for a '79 CJ-7 with T-150 transmission. Since there were both
V-8 and inline 6 engines in '79, you might want to confirm that the clutch part
numbers are the same for both engines. My recollection is that they are the
same. If you ask for what you actually have (258/T-150 Bellhousing and T-18
tranny), the parts guy won't have a clue what you are talking about because
there are no such animals in his parts book.
>do you mean the overall height ?
yes.
Robert Bills
KG6LMV
Orange County CA
http://www.outdoorwire.com/4x4/jeep/...p-l/billsr.htm
http://www.RobertBills.com
>application, 258 - T150 bellhousing - Borg Warner T18 for a '79 CJ5 then
> I should get a clutch that works ... or get the "we don't carry that"
>answer, right ?
Ask for a clutch for a '79 CJ-7 with T-150 transmission. Since there were both
V-8 and inline 6 engines in '79, you might want to confirm that the clutch part
numbers are the same for both engines. My recollection is that they are the
same. If you ask for what you actually have (258/T-150 Bellhousing and T-18
tranny), the parts guy won't have a clue what you are talking about because
there are no such animals in his parts book.
>do you mean the overall height ?
yes.
Robert Bills
KG6LMV
Orange County CA
http://www.outdoorwire.com/4x4/jeep/...p-l/billsr.htm
http://www.RobertBills.com