Re: For gear heads only
08-21-2003, 02:26 PM
#11
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: For gear heads only
Air pressure is just too spongy, valve time must be precise.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
MXJOE wrote:
>
> Formula One engines have some type of pneumatic valve train don't they? How
> do they work? Those cars run on 89 octane don't they? I obviosly don't
> know much about them, but maybe someone here will.
> JOE
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
MXJOE wrote:
>
> Formula One engines have some type of pneumatic valve train don't they? How
> do they work? Those cars run on 89 octane don't they? I obviosly don't
> know much about them, but maybe someone here will.
> JOE
08-21-2003, 02:30 PM
#12
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: For gear heads only
Search keywords: Cosworth, 1986, Renault, pneumatic valve train,
Formula 1, and most importantly
"Sometimes bill is just plain wrong" :>-)
Approximately 8/21/03 11:26, L.W.(ßill) ------ III uttered for posterity:
> Air pressure is just too spongy, valve time must be precise.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> MXJOE wrote:
>>
>> Formula One engines have some type of pneumatic valve train don't they? How
>> do they work? Those cars run on 89 octane don't they? I obviosly don't
>> know much about them, but maybe someone here will.
>> JOE
Formula 1, and most importantly
"Sometimes bill is just plain wrong" :>-)
Approximately 8/21/03 11:26, L.W.(ßill) ------ III uttered for posterity:
> Air pressure is just too spongy, valve time must be precise.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> MXJOE wrote:
>>
>> Formula One engines have some type of pneumatic valve train don't they? How
>> do they work? Those cars run on 89 octane don't they? I obviosly don't
>> know much about them, but maybe someone here will.
>> JOE
08-21-2003, 02:30 PM
#13
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: For gear heads only
Search keywords: Cosworth, 1986, Renault, pneumatic valve train,
Formula 1, and most importantly
"Sometimes bill is just plain wrong" :>-)
Approximately 8/21/03 11:26, L.W.(ßill) ------ III uttered for posterity:
> Air pressure is just too spongy, valve time must be precise.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> MXJOE wrote:
>>
>> Formula One engines have some type of pneumatic valve train don't they? How
>> do they work? Those cars run on 89 octane don't they? I obviosly don't
>> know much about them, but maybe someone here will.
>> JOE
Formula 1, and most importantly
"Sometimes bill is just plain wrong" :>-)
Approximately 8/21/03 11:26, L.W.(ßill) ------ III uttered for posterity:
> Air pressure is just too spongy, valve time must be precise.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> MXJOE wrote:
>>
>> Formula One engines have some type of pneumatic valve train don't they? How
>> do they work? Those cars run on 89 octane don't they? I obviosly don't
>> know much about them, but maybe someone here will.
>> JOE
08-21-2003, 02:31 PM
#14
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: For gear heads only
Approximately 8/21/03 11:26, L.W.(ßill) ------ III uttered for posterity:
> Air pressure is just too spongy, valve time must be precise.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> MXJOE wrote:
>>
>> Formula One engines have some type of pneumatic valve train don't they? How
>> do they work? Those cars run on 89 octane don't they? I obviosly don't
>> know much about them, but maybe someone here will.
>> JOE
<http://www.indiacar.com/index2.asp?pagename=http://www.indiacar.com/nfs/technical/pvengine.htm>
or http://tinyurl.com/kr6d
> Air pressure is just too spongy, valve time must be precise.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> MXJOE wrote:
>>
>> Formula One engines have some type of pneumatic valve train don't they? How
>> do they work? Those cars run on 89 octane don't they? I obviosly don't
>> know much about them, but maybe someone here will.
>> JOE
<http://www.indiacar.com/index2.asp?pagename=http://www.indiacar.com/nfs/technical/pvengine.htm>
or http://tinyurl.com/kr6d
08-21-2003, 02:31 PM
#15
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: For gear heads only
Approximately 8/21/03 11:26, L.W.(ßill) ------ III uttered for posterity:
> Air pressure is just too spongy, valve time must be precise.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> MXJOE wrote:
>>
>> Formula One engines have some type of pneumatic valve train don't they? How
>> do they work? Those cars run on 89 octane don't they? I obviosly don't
>> know much about them, but maybe someone here will.
>> JOE
<http://www.indiacar.com/index2.asp?pagename=http://www.indiacar.com/nfs/technical/pvengine.htm>
or http://tinyurl.com/kr6d
> Air pressure is just too spongy, valve time must be precise.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> MXJOE wrote:
>>
>> Formula One engines have some type of pneumatic valve train don't they? How
>> do they work? Those cars run on 89 octane don't they? I obviosly don't
>> know much about them, but maybe someone here will.
>> JOE
<http://www.indiacar.com/index2.asp?pagename=http://www.indiacar.com/nfs/technical/pvengine.htm>
or http://tinyurl.com/kr6d
08-21-2003, 02:34 PM
#16
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: For gear heads only
Soleniods only act in one direction, requiring a spring for return, or a second
solenoid acting in the opposite direction (which would probably be the way to go
to elimiate the spring force all together).
Lon Stowell wrote:
> If you were to use solenoids for valve control, the first thing
> you do is get rid of the spring, then use the solenoid to both
> open and close the valve. The amount of energy needed for that
> is quite low.... as an example the old Mercedes [or ducatti bike]
> with desmodromic valves which if set up properly allowed you to spin
> the cam assemblies with your fingers, opening and closing the valves.
>
> I suspect that some of the older tricks might have trouble with
> emissions today. e.g. to avoid binding, don't fully close the
> valves, let the engine compression do it for you.
>
> I could swear some formula 1 or would-be formula 1 engine used
> solenoid type valves, but memory is dim and the missus is nagging
> me to cut down on caffiene. The name Honda keeps popping up
> in memory.
>
> Approximately 8/21/03 09:45, L.W.(ßill) ------ III uttered for posterity:
>
> > I use 350 pound closed valve springs to insure they don't float at
> > six grand, can you imagine the size of an solenoid that may do just
> > that, lift a valve one half inch three thousand times a minute, even if
> > you take the weight of a lifter out of the picture? Heck, they can't
> > even get an overhead cam to work correctly, push rods are a must for
> > precision, high performance horse power.
> > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> >
> > serg wrote:
> >>
> >> funny-i remember talking to some friends about using solenoids to drive the
> >> valves in a car back when we were in engineering school.....we thought the
> >> electronics would be kind of a pain. the timing would probably be
> >> controlled more efficiently though.
solenoid acting in the opposite direction (which would probably be the way to go
to elimiate the spring force all together).
Lon Stowell wrote:
> If you were to use solenoids for valve control, the first thing
> you do is get rid of the spring, then use the solenoid to both
> open and close the valve. The amount of energy needed for that
> is quite low.... as an example the old Mercedes [or ducatti bike]
> with desmodromic valves which if set up properly allowed you to spin
> the cam assemblies with your fingers, opening and closing the valves.
>
> I suspect that some of the older tricks might have trouble with
> emissions today. e.g. to avoid binding, don't fully close the
> valves, let the engine compression do it for you.
>
> I could swear some formula 1 or would-be formula 1 engine used
> solenoid type valves, but memory is dim and the missus is nagging
> me to cut down on caffiene. The name Honda keeps popping up
> in memory.
>
> Approximately 8/21/03 09:45, L.W.(ßill) ------ III uttered for posterity:
>
> > I use 350 pound closed valve springs to insure they don't float at
> > six grand, can you imagine the size of an solenoid that may do just
> > that, lift a valve one half inch three thousand times a minute, even if
> > you take the weight of a lifter out of the picture? Heck, they can't
> > even get an overhead cam to work correctly, push rods are a must for
> > precision, high performance horse power.
> > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> >
> > serg wrote:
> >>
> >> funny-i remember talking to some friends about using solenoids to drive the
> >> valves in a car back when we were in engineering school.....we thought the
> >> electronics would be kind of a pain. the timing would probably be
> >> controlled more efficiently though.
08-21-2003, 02:34 PM
#17
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: For gear heads only
Soleniods only act in one direction, requiring a spring for return, or a second
solenoid acting in the opposite direction (which would probably be the way to go
to elimiate the spring force all together).
Lon Stowell wrote:
> If you were to use solenoids for valve control, the first thing
> you do is get rid of the spring, then use the solenoid to both
> open and close the valve. The amount of energy needed for that
> is quite low.... as an example the old Mercedes [or ducatti bike]
> with desmodromic valves which if set up properly allowed you to spin
> the cam assemblies with your fingers, opening and closing the valves.
>
> I suspect that some of the older tricks might have trouble with
> emissions today. e.g. to avoid binding, don't fully close the
> valves, let the engine compression do it for you.
>
> I could swear some formula 1 or would-be formula 1 engine used
> solenoid type valves, but memory is dim and the missus is nagging
> me to cut down on caffiene. The name Honda keeps popping up
> in memory.
>
> Approximately 8/21/03 09:45, L.W.(ßill) ------ III uttered for posterity:
>
> > I use 350 pound closed valve springs to insure they don't float at
> > six grand, can you imagine the size of an solenoid that may do just
> > that, lift a valve one half inch three thousand times a minute, even if
> > you take the weight of a lifter out of the picture? Heck, they can't
> > even get an overhead cam to work correctly, push rods are a must for
> > precision, high performance horse power.
> > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> >
> > serg wrote:
> >>
> >> funny-i remember talking to some friends about using solenoids to drive the
> >> valves in a car back when we were in engineering school.....we thought the
> >> electronics would be kind of a pain. the timing would probably be
> >> controlled more efficiently though.
solenoid acting in the opposite direction (which would probably be the way to go
to elimiate the spring force all together).
Lon Stowell wrote:
> If you were to use solenoids for valve control, the first thing
> you do is get rid of the spring, then use the solenoid to both
> open and close the valve. The amount of energy needed for that
> is quite low.... as an example the old Mercedes [or ducatti bike]
> with desmodromic valves which if set up properly allowed you to spin
> the cam assemblies with your fingers, opening and closing the valves.
>
> I suspect that some of the older tricks might have trouble with
> emissions today. e.g. to avoid binding, don't fully close the
> valves, let the engine compression do it for you.
>
> I could swear some formula 1 or would-be formula 1 engine used
> solenoid type valves, but memory is dim and the missus is nagging
> me to cut down on caffiene. The name Honda keeps popping up
> in memory.
>
> Approximately 8/21/03 09:45, L.W.(ßill) ------ III uttered for posterity:
>
> > I use 350 pound closed valve springs to insure they don't float at
> > six grand, can you imagine the size of an solenoid that may do just
> > that, lift a valve one half inch three thousand times a minute, even if
> > you take the weight of a lifter out of the picture? Heck, they can't
> > even get an overhead cam to work correctly, push rods are a must for
> > precision, high performance horse power.
> > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
> >
> > serg wrote:
> >>
> >> funny-i remember talking to some friends about using solenoids to drive the
> >> valves in a car back when we were in engineering school.....we thought the
> >> electronics would be kind of a pain. the timing would probably be
> >> controlled more efficiently though.
08-21-2003, 02:35 PM
#18
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: For gear heads only
The Mercedes 300 SLR had no springs whatever. The desmodromic
valves worked with a cam to open and a cam to close. Ducati
started using the same valves in the mid 80's. Actually surprised
with a quick google how many other engines use/used it.
Approximately 8/21/03 11:24, L.W.(ßill) ------ III uttered for posterity:
> Hi Lon,
> On very low compression engines such as the scooter and motorcycles
> I grew up with, the springs didn't need to be strong because they just
> didn't turn fast enough where the weight of valve wouldn't be as much to
> stop as a bullet. In fact they even had compression releases to make
> them easier to turn over for starting.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Lon Stowell wrote:
>>
>> If you were to use solenoids for valve control, the first thing
>> you do is get rid of the spring, then use the solenoid to both
>> open and close the valve. The amount of energy needed for that
>> is quite low.... as an example the old Mercedes [or ducatti bike]
>> with desmodromic valves which if set up properly allowed you to spin
>> the cam assemblies with your fingers, opening and closing the valves.
>>
>> I suspect that some of the older tricks might have trouble with
>> emissions today. e.g. to avoid binding, don't fully close the
>> valves, let the engine compression do it for you.
>>
>> I could swear some formula 1 or would-be formula 1 engine used
>> solenoid type valves, but memory is dim and the missus is nagging
>> me to cut down on caffiene. The name Honda keeps popping up
>> in memory.
08-21-2003, 02:35 PM
#19
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: For gear heads only
The Mercedes 300 SLR had no springs whatever. The desmodromic
valves worked with a cam to open and a cam to close. Ducati
started using the same valves in the mid 80's. Actually surprised
with a quick google how many other engines use/used it.
Approximately 8/21/03 11:24, L.W.(ßill) ------ III uttered for posterity:
> Hi Lon,
> On very low compression engines such as the scooter and motorcycles
> I grew up with, the springs didn't need to be strong because they just
> didn't turn fast enough where the weight of valve wouldn't be as much to
> stop as a bullet. In fact they even had compression releases to make
> them easier to turn over for starting.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Lon Stowell wrote:
>>
>> If you were to use solenoids for valve control, the first thing
>> you do is get rid of the spring, then use the solenoid to both
>> open and close the valve. The amount of energy needed for that
>> is quite low.... as an example the old Mercedes [or ducatti bike]
>> with desmodromic valves which if set up properly allowed you to spin
>> the cam assemblies with your fingers, opening and closing the valves.
>>
>> I suspect that some of the older tricks might have trouble with
>> emissions today. e.g. to avoid binding, don't fully close the
>> valves, let the engine compression do it for you.
>>
>> I could swear some formula 1 or would-be formula 1 engine used
>> solenoid type valves, but memory is dim and the missus is nagging
>> me to cut down on caffiene. The name Honda keeps popping up
>> in memory.
08-21-2003, 03:06 PM
#20
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: For gear heads only
Ahhh, this explains why you have to order power locks "up" and power locks
"down" separately... solenoids work very well in 2 directions.
-Brian
"Football God" <footballgod@heaven.com> wrote in message
news:3F45109C.7F2A9948@heaven.com...
: Soleniods only act in one direction, requiring a spring for return, or a
second
: solenoid acting in the opposite direction (which would probably be the way
to go
: to elimiate the spring force all together).
:
: Lon Stowell wrote:
:
: > If you were to use solenoids for valve control, the first thing
: > you do is get rid of the spring, then use the solenoid to both
: > open and close the valve. The amount of energy needed for that
: > is quite low.... as an example the old Mercedes [or ducatti bike]
: > with desmodromic valves which if set up properly allowed you to spin
: > the cam assemblies with your fingers, opening and closing the valves.
: >
: > I suspect that some of the older tricks might have trouble with
: > emissions today. e.g. to avoid binding, don't fully close the
: > valves, let the engine compression do it for you.
: >
: > I could swear some formula 1 or would-be formula 1 engine used
: > solenoid type valves, but memory is dim and the missus is nagging
: > me to cut down on caffiene. The name Honda keeps popping up
: > in memory.
: >
: > Approximately 8/21/03 09:45, L.W.(ßill) ------ III uttered for
posterity:
: >
: > > I use 350 pound closed valve springs to insure they don't float
at
: > > six grand, can you imagine the size of an solenoid that may do just
: > > that, lift a valve one half inch three thousand times a minute, even
if
: > > you take the weight of a lifter out of the picture? Heck, they can't
: > > even get an overhead cam to work correctly, push rods are a must for
: > > precision, high performance horse power.
: > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
: > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
: > >
: > > serg wrote:
: > >>
: > >> funny-i remember talking to some friends about using solenoids to
drive the
: > >> valves in a car back when we were in engineering school.....we
thought the
: > >> electronics would be kind of a pain. the timing would probably be
: > >> controlled more efficiently though.
:
"down" separately... solenoids work very well in 2 directions.
-Brian
"Football God" <footballgod@heaven.com> wrote in message
news:3F45109C.7F2A9948@heaven.com...
: Soleniods only act in one direction, requiring a spring for return, or a
second
: solenoid acting in the opposite direction (which would probably be the way
to go
: to elimiate the spring force all together).
:
: Lon Stowell wrote:
:
: > If you were to use solenoids for valve control, the first thing
: > you do is get rid of the spring, then use the solenoid to both
: > open and close the valve. The amount of energy needed for that
: > is quite low.... as an example the old Mercedes [or ducatti bike]
: > with desmodromic valves which if set up properly allowed you to spin
: > the cam assemblies with your fingers, opening and closing the valves.
: >
: > I suspect that some of the older tricks might have trouble with
: > emissions today. e.g. to avoid binding, don't fully close the
: > valves, let the engine compression do it for you.
: >
: > I could swear some formula 1 or would-be formula 1 engine used
: > solenoid type valves, but memory is dim and the missus is nagging
: > me to cut down on caffiene. The name Honda keeps popping up
: > in memory.
: >
: > Approximately 8/21/03 09:45, L.W.(ßill) ------ III uttered for
posterity:
: >
: > > I use 350 pound closed valve springs to insure they don't float
at
: > > six grand, can you imagine the size of an solenoid that may do just
: > > that, lift a valve one half inch three thousand times a minute, even
if
: > > you take the weight of a lifter out of the picture? Heck, they can't
: > > even get an overhead cam to work correctly, push rods are a must for
: > > precision, high performance horse power.
: > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
: > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
: > >
: > > serg wrote:
: > >>
: > >> funny-i remember talking to some friends about using solenoids to
drive the
: > >> valves in a car back when we were in engineering school.....we
thought the
: > >> electronics would be kind of a pain. the timing would probably be
: > >> controlled more efficiently though.
: