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Re: For gear heads only

funny-i remember talking to some friends about using solenoids to drive the
valves in a car back when we were in engineering school.....we thought the
electronics would be kind of a pain. the timing would probably be
controlled more efficiently though.

"Football God" <Footballgod@heaven.com> wrote in message
news:3F44B86D.A65292DE@us.ibm.com...
> From NY Times, Cam-less engines:
>
> WHAT'S NEXT
> A Chip-Based Challenge to a Car's Spinning Camshaft
> By IAN AUSTEN
>
> F Henry Ford could see the engines now made by the company he founded
> 100 years ago, he would probably be puzzled by the electronics that
> control many operations. But the mechanical system operating the valves
> that bring fuel and air into the engine and let out exhaust would be
> very familiar.
>
> As in Ford's time, those spring-loaded valves are opened and closed by
> cams, precisely shaped bumps of steel spinning along a rotating shaft.
>
> But some automotive researchers are working on ways of making mechanical
> valve controls as obsolete as the Model T Ford. Operating the controls
> electronically could improve fuel efficiency, reduce emissions and
> perhaps even eliminate the need for spark plugs in gasoline engines.
>
> The demise of the camshaft would also be welcomed by companies that make
> electronic parts for cars. "We'd really like to see this technology come
> along because it requires a huge use of semiconductors," said Ray
> Cornyn, the manager of Motorola's microcontroller division in Austin,
> Tex., which supplies the auto industry.
>
> Over the years, electronics have been more of a boon than a threat to
> camshafts. Computer-controlled manufacturing systems and computer-based
> designs have improved the quality of camshafts while reducing the cost
> of their manufacture. But in concept, camshafts remained relatively
> unchanged from the era of Ford's first assembly lines.
>
> Today it is common for each cylinder of a car's engine to have two pairs
> of intake and exhaust valves, with each pair sharing a cam on the
> camshaft. The camshaft is set spinning by a rubber belt or steel chain
> connected to the engine's crankshaft, the component that ultimately
> provides the power to the car's wheels. As the camshaft rotates, the
> high point of each cam first presses against a spring-loaded lifter of
> an intake valve, gradually opening it, and then closing it as the cam's
> low side approaches. As it continues to revolve, the high part of the
> cam repeats the process for the paired exhaust valve.
>
> When Siemens VDO Automotive, in partnership with BMW, built a prototype
> camless engine four years ago, it came up with a three-part system. In
> place of cams it used solenoids, electromagnetically controlled plungers
> that are already widely used in cars for things like electric door
> locks.
>
> While an electronic valve control system doesn't need mechanical power
> from the crankshaft, it does need to know what the crankshaft and the
> pistons driving it are doing. In a normal car, the belt or chain that
> connects crankshaft to camshaft ensures proper timing; that is, no valve
> remains open when its cylinder's piston is at the top of its travel.
> Such a situation would seriously damage a motor.
>
> In its camless version, Siemens prevents such mistiming by using sensors
> that detect the position of the crankshaft and thus the pistons.
> Finally, the new engine was given yet another powerful computer to make
> sure everything works in sequence. "When an eight-cylinder engine with
> four valves per cylinder is running at 6,000 r.p.m. there's a lot to
> do," said Michael Gauthier, director of corporate technology in
> Siemens's automotive division.
>
> The prototype engine was installed in a 3-series BMW sedan. It worked
> but had several significant shortcomings. For one thing, the solenoids
> and the additional computer power taxed the car's already overburdened
> electrical system. Mr. Gauthier said that cars would have to make a
> long-awaited move to 42-volt electrical systems (from the current 12
> volts) before electronic valve control would be practical.
>
> For car makers, the system's least attractive aspect was its price
> relative to camshafts. And there was a problem that made the engine
> unattractive to buyers, particularly those who associate BMW with
> smoothly running engines. As anyone who has opened a car with electric
> locks knows, solenoids are far from silent. "I saw the vehicle, and all
> you heard when it was running was slap, slap, slap," Mr. Gauthier said.
>
> Motorola believes that the control computer could be programmed to
> soften and quiet the action of the solenoids. Other electronic
> valve-control designs have relied on different parts to push the valves
> open.
>
> A device that used piezoelectric crystals, which produce electricity
> when bent, was quiet and cut the power burden. But current piezoelectric
> devices must be about 8 to 10 inches high to operate engine valves. The
> result, Mr. Gauthier said, is an engine "that looks something like a
> porcupine" and will not fit under the hood of most cars.
>
> There are several incentives for trying to perfect electronic valves.
> Among other things, it would allow engines to reduce their power after
> getting a car up to speed, an easy way to save fuel. "About 90 percent
> of the time you need about 20 percent of the engine's output," Mr.
> Gauthier said. "It's extremely wasteful to put a 200-horsepower engine
> in a car when you only need 40 horsepower most of the time."
>
> But some car makers have already found several ways to achieve that goal
> mechanically. Some engines have camshafts that can be raised or lowered
> between two positions to adjust the valve openings. A more sophisticated
> system from BMW can make a wider range of valve adjustments to reduce or
> boost power.
>
> Because of those mechanical advances and the cost issue, Zoran Filipi,
> an associate research scientist and the assistant director of the
> University of Michigan's automotive research center, said that
> electronic control would probably become wide------ only if it could
> change the way engines operate.
>
> A potential way to reduce emissions and improve economy in gasoline
> engines would be to eliminate spark plugs and, like a diesel engine,
> ignite fuel through the compression of pistons. Such engines, however,
> would only be cleaner if they used a carefully blended fuel mix injected
> at the last moment. Dr. Filipi said that electronic valves might be an
> effective way to control the engines' operation.
>
> The biggest hurdle for electronic valve controls may be that when it
> comes to auto parts, age does have its advantages, said Dr. Filipi.
> "Over the last 100 years or so we've perfected camshaft technologies,"
> he said.
>
>
>

Re: For gear heads only

I use 350 pound closed valve springs to insure they don't float at
six grand, can you imagine the size of an solenoid that may do just
that, lift a valve one half inch three thousand times a minute, even if
you take the weight of a lifter out of the picture? Heck, they can't
even get an overhead cam to work correctly, push rods are a must for
precision, high performance horse power.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

serg wrote:
>
> funny-i remember talking to some friends about using solenoids to drive the
> valves in a car back when we were in engineering school.....we thought the
> electronics would be kind of a pain. the timing would probably be
> controlled more efficiently though.

Re: For gear heads only

If you were to use solenoids for valve control, the first thing
you do is get rid of the spring, then use the solenoid to both
open and close the valve. The amount of energy needed for that
is quite low.... as an example the old Mercedes [or ducatti bike]
with desmodromic valves which if set up properly allowed you to spin
the cam assemblies with your fingers, opening and closing the valves.

I suspect that some of the older tricks might have trouble with
emissions today. e.g. to avoid binding, don't fully close the
valves, let the engine compression do it for you.

I could swear some formula 1 or would-be formula 1 engine used
solenoid type valves, but memory is dim and the missus is nagging
me to cut down on caffiene. The name Honda keeps popping up
in memory.

Approximately 8/21/03 09:45, L.W.(ßill) ------ III uttered for posterity:

> I use 350 pound closed valve springs to insure they don't float at
> six grand, can you imagine the size of an solenoid that may do just
> that, lift a valve one half inch three thousand times a minute, even if
> you take the weight of a lifter out of the picture? Heck, they can't
> even get an overhead cam to work correctly, push rods are a must for
> precision, high performance horse power.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> serg wrote:
>>
>> funny-i remember talking to some friends about using solenoids to drive the
>> valves in a car back when we were in engineering school.....we thought the
>> electronics would be kind of a pain. the timing would probably be
>> controlled more efficiently though.

Re: For gear heads only

hard to beat a cam with silicon and wires.

serg wrote:

> funny-i remember talking to some friends about using solenoids to drive the
> valves in a car back when we were in engineering school.....we thought the
> electronics would be kind of a pain. the timing would probably be
> controlled more efficiently though.
>
> "Football God" <Footballgod@heaven.com> wrote in message
> news:3F44B86D.A65292DE@us.ibm.com...
> > From NY Times, Cam-less engines:
> >
> > WHAT'S NEXT
> > A Chip-Based Challenge to a Car's Spinning Camshaft
> > By IAN AUSTEN
> >
> > F Henry Ford could see the engines now made by the company he founded
> > 100 years ago, he would probably be puzzled by the electronics that
> > control many operations. But the mechanical system operating the valves
> > that bring fuel and air into the engine and let out exhaust would be
> > very familiar.
> >
> > As in Ford's time, those spring-loaded valves are opened and closed by
> > cams, precisely shaped bumps of steel spinning along a rotating shaft.
> >
> > But some automotive researchers are working on ways of making mechanical
> > valve controls as obsolete as the Model T Ford. Operating the controls
> > electronically could improve fuel efficiency, reduce emissions and
> > perhaps even eliminate the need for spark plugs in gasoline engines.
> >
> > The demise of the camshaft would also be welcomed by companies that make
> > electronic parts for cars. "We'd really like to see this technology come
> > along because it requires a huge use of semiconductors," said Ray
> > Cornyn, the manager of Motorola's microcontroller division in Austin,
> > Tex., which supplies the auto industry.
> >
> > Over the years, electronics have been more of a boon than a threat to
> > camshafts. Computer-controlled manufacturing systems and computer-based
> > designs have improved the quality of camshafts while reducing the cost
> > of their manufacture. But in concept, camshafts remained relatively
> > unchanged from the era of Ford's first assembly lines.
> >
> > Today it is common for each cylinder of a car's engine to have two pairs
> > of intake and exhaust valves, with each pair sharing a cam on the
> > camshaft. The camshaft is set spinning by a rubber belt or steel chain
> > connected to the engine's crankshaft, the component that ultimately
> > provides the power to the car's wheels. As the camshaft rotates, the
> > high point of each cam first presses against a spring-loaded lifter of
> > an intake valve, gradually opening it, and then closing it as the cam's
> > low side approaches. As it continues to revolve, the high part of the
> > cam repeats the process for the paired exhaust valve.
> >
> > When Siemens VDO Automotive, in partnership with BMW, built a prototype
> > camless engine four years ago, it came up with a three-part system. In
> > place of cams it used solenoids, electromagnetically controlled plungers
> > that are already widely used in cars for things like electric door
> > locks.
> >
> > While an electronic valve control system doesn't need mechanical power
> > from the crankshaft, it does need to know what the crankshaft and the
> > pistons driving it are doing. In a normal car, the belt or chain that
> > connects crankshaft to camshaft ensures proper timing; that is, no valve
> > remains open when its cylinder's piston is at the top of its travel.
> > Such a situation would seriously damage a motor.
> >
> > In its camless version, Siemens prevents such mistiming by using sensors
> > that detect the position of the crankshaft and thus the pistons.
> > Finally, the new engine was given yet another powerful computer to make
> > sure everything works in sequence. "When an eight-cylinder engine with
> > four valves per cylinder is running at 6,000 r.p.m. there's a lot to
> > do," said Michael Gauthier, director of corporate technology in
> > Siemens's automotive division.
> >
> > The prototype engine was installed in a 3-series BMW sedan. It worked
> > but had several significant shortcomings. For one thing, the solenoids
> > and the additional computer power taxed the car's already overburdened
> > electrical system. Mr. Gauthier said that cars would have to make a
> > long-awaited move to 42-volt electrical systems (from the current 12
> > volts) before electronic valve control would be practical.
> >
> > For car makers, the system's least attractive aspect was its price
> > relative to camshafts. And there was a problem that made the engine
> > unattractive to buyers, particularly those who associate BMW with
> > smoothly running engines. As anyone who has opened a car with electric
> > locks knows, solenoids are far from silent. "I saw the vehicle, and all
> > you heard when it was running was slap, slap, slap," Mr. Gauthier said.
> >
> > Motorola believes that the control computer could be programmed to
> > soften and quiet the action of the solenoids. Other electronic
> > valve-control designs have relied on different parts to push the valves
> > open.
> >
> > A device that used piezoelectric crystals, which produce electricity
> > when bent, was quiet and cut the power burden. But current piezoelectric
> > devices must be about 8 to 10 inches high to operate engine valves. The
> > result, Mr. Gauthier said, is an engine "that looks something like a
> > porcupine" and will not fit under the hood of most cars.
> >
> > There are several incentives for trying to perfect electronic valves.
> > Among other things, it would allow engines to reduce their power after
> > getting a car up to speed, an easy way to save fuel. "About 90 percent
> > of the time you need about 20 percent of the engine's output," Mr.
> > Gauthier said. "It's extremely wasteful to put a 200-horsepower engine
> > in a car when you only need 40 horsepower most of the time."
> >
> > But some car makers have already found several ways to achieve that goal
> > mechanically. Some engines have camshafts that can be raised or lowered
> > between two positions to adjust the valve openings. A more sophisticated
> > system from BMW can make a wider range of valve adjustments to reduce or
> > boost power.
> >
> > Because of those mechanical advances and the cost issue, Zoran Filipi,
> > an associate research scientist and the assistant director of the
> > University of Michigan's automotive research center, said that
> > electronic control would probably become wide------ only if it could
> > change the way engines operate.
> >
> > A potential way to reduce emissions and improve economy in gasoline
> > engines would be to eliminate spark plugs and, like a diesel engine,
> > ignite fuel through the compression of pistons. Such engines, however,
> > would only be cleaner if they used a carefully blended fuel mix injected
> > at the last moment. Dr. Filipi said that electronic valves might be an
> > effective way to control the engines' operation.
> >
> > The biggest hurdle for electronic valve controls may be that when it
> > comes to auto parts, age does have its advantages, said Dr. Filipi.
> > "Over the last 100 years or so we've perfected camshaft technologies,"
> > he said.
> >
> >
> >

Re: For gear heads only

Hi Lon,
On very low compression engines such as the scooter and motorcycles
I grew up with, the springs didn't need to be strong because they just
didn't turn fast enough where the weight of valve wouldn't be as much to
stop as a bullet. In fact they even had compression releases to make
them easier to turn over for starting.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Lon Stowell wrote:
>
> If you were to use solenoids for valve control, the first thing
> you do is get rid of the spring, then use the solenoid to both
> open and close the valve. The amount of energy needed for that
> is quite low.... as an example the old Mercedes [or ducatti bike]
> with desmodromic valves which if set up properly allowed you to spin
> the cam assemblies with your fingers, opening and closing the valves.
>
> I suspect that some of the older tricks might have trouble with
> emissions today. e.g. to avoid binding, don't fully close the
> valves, let the engine compression do it for you.
>
> I could swear some formula 1 or would-be formula 1 engine used
> solenoid type valves, but memory is dim and the missus is nagging
> me to cut down on caffiene. The name Honda keeps popping up
> in memory.

Re: For gear heads only

Air pressure is just too spongy, valve time must be precise.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

MXJOE wrote:
>
> Formula One engines have some type of pneumatic valve train don't they? How
> do they work? Those cars run on 89 octane don't they? I obviosly don't
> know much about them, but maybe someone here will.
> JOE