Re: For gear heads only
 

Ahhh, this explains why you have to order power locks "up" and power locks
"down" separately... solenoids work very well in 2 directions.

-Brian

"Football God" <footballgod@heaven.com> wrote in message
news:3F45109C.7F2A9948@heaven.com...
: Soleniods only act in one direction, requiring a spring for return, or a
second
: solenoid acting in the opposite direction (which would probably be the way
to go
: to elimiate the spring force all together).
:
: Lon Stowell wrote:
:
: > If you were to use solenoids for valve control, the first thing
: > you do is get rid of the spring, then use the solenoid to both
: > open and close the valve. The amount of energy needed for that
: > is quite low.... as an example the old Mercedes [or ducatti bike]
: > with desmodromic valves which if set up properly allowed you to spin
: > the cam assemblies with your fingers, opening and closing the valves.
: >
: > I suspect that some of the older tricks might have trouble with
: > emissions today. e.g. to avoid binding, don't fully close the
: > valves, let the engine compression do it for you.
: >
: > I could swear some formula 1 or would-be formula 1 engine used
: > solenoid type valves, but memory is dim and the missus is nagging
: > me to cut down on caffiene. The name Honda keeps popping up
: > in memory.
: >
: > Approximately 8/21/03 09:45, L.W.(ßill) ------ III uttered for
posterity:
: >
: > > I use 350 pound closed valve springs to insure they don't float
at
: > > six grand, can you imagine the size of an solenoid that may do just
: > > that, lift a valve one half inch three thousand times a minute, even
if
: > > you take the weight of a lifter out of the picture? Heck, they can't
: > > even get an overhead cam to work correctly, push rods are a must for
: > > precision, high performance horse power.
: > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
: > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
: > >
: > > serg wrote:
: > >>
: > >> funny-i remember talking to some friends about using solenoids to
drive the
: > >> valves in a car back when we were in engineering school.....we
thought the
: > >> electronics would be kind of a pain. the timing would probably be
: > >> controlled more efficiently though.
:

Re: For gear heads only
 

Lon, you're going to have to supply a URL, Pushing a valve up and down
like on a connecting rod does not take into account temperature
expansion and contraction.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Lon Stowell wrote:
>
> The Mercedes 300 SLR had no springs whatever. The desmodromic
> valves worked with a cam to open and a cam to close. Ducati
> started using the same valves in the mid 80's. Actually surprised
> with a quick google how many other engines use/used it.

Re: For gear heads only
 

Lon, you're going to have to supply a URL, Pushing a valve up and down
like on a connecting rod does not take into account temperature
expansion and contraction.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Lon Stowell wrote:
>
> The Mercedes 300 SLR had no springs whatever. The desmodromic
> valves worked with a cam to open and a cam to close. Ducati
> started using the same valves in the mid 80's. Actually surprised
> with a quick google how many other engines use/used it.

Re: For gear heads only
 

Ahh, you don't believe those clever germans and italians can
do this, using an idea from the french Delage firm.

The merest moment spent with the keyword desmodromic or
even Mercedes 300SLR [actually W196R] or Ducati Desmodromic would have
yielded pictures, articles, technical articles and such
to fill in the gaps. They worked very nicely. At very high
speed. Delage's worked, but not sophisticated enough
to deal with heat. Mercedes solved it by realizing that
the valves are in a system, not standalone, and used
the engine itself to close the valve with a bit of
slop in the system. Ducati uses a very very light
spring that works only for the final few thousandths
of an inch, which would resolve the low speed issues
that the Mercedes W196 had...and still allows you to
operate the entire valve train with minimal finger
pressure.

Enjoy, some have drawings, some have pictures. Some
have engineering analysis.

<http://www.desmodromics.co.nz/desmodromic.htm>

<http://technografix.hypermart.net/desmodro.htm>

<http://speedwaybikes.fortunecity.net/desmo.htm>

<http://www.ntnoa.org/engine.htm>

<http://www.alphalink.net.au/~petero/springs.html>

<http://island.isy.vcu.edu/mthomas/desmodromics_101.html>

<http://www.ducati.com/racing/corse_rts.jhtml>

<http://diem1.ing.unibo.it/mechmach/rivola/pub26.html>

<http://diem1.ing.unibo.it/mechmach/rivola/pub23.html>

Approximately 8/21/03 12:39, L.W.(ßill) ------ III uttered for posterity:

> Lon, you're going to have to supply a URL, Pushing a valve up and down
> like on a connecting rod does not take into account temperature
> expansion and contraction.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Lon Stowell wrote:
>>
>> The Mercedes 300 SLR had no springs whatever. The desmodromic
>> valves worked with a cam to open and a cam to close. Ducati
>> started using the same valves in the mid 80's. Actually surprised
>> with a quick google how many other engines use/used it.

Re: For gear heads only
 

Ahh, you don't believe those clever germans and italians can
do this, using an idea from the french Delage firm.

The merest moment spent with the keyword desmodromic or
even Mercedes 300SLR [actually W196R] or Ducati Desmodromic would have
yielded pictures, articles, technical articles and such
to fill in the gaps. They worked very nicely. At very high
speed. Delage's worked, but not sophisticated enough
to deal with heat. Mercedes solved it by realizing that
the valves are in a system, not standalone, and used
the engine itself to close the valve with a bit of
slop in the system. Ducati uses a very very light
spring that works only for the final few thousandths
of an inch, which would resolve the low speed issues
that the Mercedes W196 had...and still allows you to
operate the entire valve train with minimal finger
pressure.

Enjoy, some have drawings, some have pictures. Some
have engineering analysis.

<http://www.desmodromics.co.nz/desmodromic.htm>

<http://technografix.hypermart.net/desmodro.htm>

<http://speedwaybikes.fortunecity.net/desmo.htm>

<http://www.ntnoa.org/engine.htm>

<http://www.alphalink.net.au/~petero/springs.html>

<http://island.isy.vcu.edu/mthomas/desmodromics_101.html>

<http://www.ducati.com/racing/corse_rts.jhtml>

<http://diem1.ing.unibo.it/mechmach/rivola/pub26.html>

<http://diem1.ing.unibo.it/mechmach/rivola/pub23.html>

Approximately 8/21/03 12:39, L.W.(ßill) ------ III uttered for posterity:

> Lon, you're going to have to supply a URL, Pushing a valve up and down
> like on a connecting rod does not take into account temperature
> expansion and contraction.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Lon Stowell wrote:
>>
>> The Mercedes 300 SLR had no springs whatever. The desmodromic
>> valves worked with a cam to open and a cam to close. Ducati
>> started using the same valves in the mid 80's. Actually surprised
>> with a quick google how many other engines use/used it.

Re: For gear heads only
 

Ducati was using them in at least 1972 as my Ducati 500 single has
this valve train.

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:35:08 -0700, Lon Stowell
<lon.stowell@comcast.net> wrote:

<snip>

Ducati >started using the same valves in the mid 80's.
>
>
>Approximately 8/21/03 11:24, L.W.(ßill) ------ III uttered for posterity:
>
>> Hi Lon,
>> On very low compression engines such as the scooter and motorcycles
>> I grew up with, the springs didn't need to be strong because they just
>> didn't turn fast enough where the weight of valve wouldn't be as much to
>> stop as a bullet. In fact they even had compression releases to make
>> them easier to turn over for starting.
>> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
>> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>>
>> Lon Stowell wrote:
>>>
>>> If you were to use solenoids for valve control, the first thing
>>> you do is get rid of the spring, then use the solenoid to both
>>> open and close the valve. The amount of energy needed for that
>>> is quite low.... as an example the old Mercedes [or ducatti bike]
>>> with desmodromic valves which if set up properly allowed you to spin
>>> the cam assemblies with your fingers, opening and closing the valves.
>>>
>>> I suspect that some of the older tricks might have trouble with
>>> emissions today. e.g. to avoid binding, don't fully close the
>>> valves, let the engine compression do it for you.
>>>
>>> I could swear some formula 1 or would-be formula 1 engine used
>>> solenoid type valves, but memory is dim and the missus is nagging
>>> me to cut down on caffiene. The name Honda keeps popping up
>>> in memory.

Re: For gear heads only
 

Ducati was using them in at least 1972 as my Ducati 500 single has
this valve train.

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:35:08 -0700, Lon Stowell
<lon.stowell@comcast.net> wrote:

<snip>

Ducati >started using the same valves in the mid 80's.
>
>
>Approximately 8/21/03 11:24, L.W.(ßill) ------ III uttered for posterity:
>
>> Hi Lon,
>> On very low compression engines such as the scooter and motorcycles
>> I grew up with, the springs didn't need to be strong because they just
>> didn't turn fast enough where the weight of valve wouldn't be as much to
>> stop as a bullet. In fact they even had compression releases to make
>> them easier to turn over for starting.
>> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
>> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>>
>> Lon Stowell wrote:
>>>
>>> If you were to use solenoids for valve control, the first thing
>>> you do is get rid of the spring, then use the solenoid to both
>>> open and close the valve. The amount of energy needed for that
>>> is quite low.... as an example the old Mercedes [or ducatti bike]
>>> with desmodromic valves which if set up properly allowed you to spin
>>> the cam assemblies with your fingers, opening and closing the valves.
>>>
>>> I suspect that some of the older tricks might have trouble with
>>> emissions today. e.g. to avoid binding, don't fully close the
>>> valves, let the engine compression do it for you.
>>>
>>> I could swear some formula 1 or would-be formula 1 engine used
>>> solenoid type valves, but memory is dim and the missus is nagging
>>> me to cut down on caffiene. The name Honda keeps popping up
>>> in memory.

Re: For gear heads only
 

Greg, the gas they are writing about is nitrogen and under two thousand
five hundred pounds per square inch should be liquid, therefore
hydraulic, no? And does nitrogen fit the definition below?

Main Entry: pneu·mat·ic
Pronunciation: nu-'ma-tik, nyu-
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin pneumaticus, from Greek
pneumatikos, from
pneumat-, pneuma air, breath, spirit, from pnein to
breathe -- more
at SNEEZE
Date: 1659
1 : of, relating to, or using gas (as air or wind):
a : moved or worked
by air pressure b (1) : adapted for holding or
inflated with
compressed air (2) : having air-filled cavities
2 : of or relating to the pneuma : SPIRITUAL
3 : having a well-proportioned feminine figure;
especially : having a
full bust
- pneu·mat·i·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb
- pneu·ma·tic·i·ty /"nü-m&-'ti-s&-tE, "nyü-/ noun

God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Gregg wrote:
>
> What is the definition of pneumatic and where does it enforce a
> pressure range??
>
> Gregg

Re: For gear heads only
 

Greg, the gas they are writing about is nitrogen and under two thousand
five hundred pounds per square inch should be liquid, therefore
hydraulic, no? And does nitrogen fit the definition below?

Main Entry: pneu·mat·ic
Pronunciation: nu-'ma-tik, nyu-
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin pneumaticus, from Greek
pneumatikos, from
pneumat-, pneuma air, breath, spirit, from pnein to
breathe -- more
at SNEEZE
Date: 1659
1 : of, relating to, or using gas (as air or wind):
a : moved or worked
by air pressure b (1) : adapted for holding or
inflated with
compressed air (2) : having air-filled cavities
2 : of or relating to the pneuma : SPIRITUAL
3 : having a well-proportioned feminine figure;
especially : having a
full bust
- pneu·mat·i·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb
- pneu·ma·tic·i·ty /"nü-m&-'ti-s&-tE, "nyü-/ noun

God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/

Gregg wrote:
>
> What is the definition of pneumatic and where does it enforce a
> pressure range??
>
> Gregg

Re: For gear heads only
 

So, how much nitrogen is there in "air" compared to say oxygen?
I figger if they wanna call it a pneumatic valve operation, they
invented it, only nitpickers unwilling to admit they are wrong
disagree, and it still runs on a compressed gas normally found
in great quantities in air. Also strongly suspect it isn't
liquid nitrogen, nor does it look like a female figure with
big breasts.

Approximately 8/21/03 15:17, L.W.(ßill) ------ III uttered for posterity:

> Greg, the gas they are writing about is nitrogen and under two thousand
> five hundred pounds per square inch should be liquid, therefore
> hydraulic, no? And does nitrogen fit the definition below?
>
> Main Entry: pneu·mat·ic
> Pronunciation: nu-'ma-tik, nyu-
> Function: adjective
> Etymology: Latin pneumaticus, from Greek
> pneumatikos, from
> pneumat-, pneuma air, breath, spirit, from pnein to
> breathe -- more
> at SNEEZE
> Date: 1659
> 1 : of, relating to, or using gas (as air or wind):
> a : moved or worked
> by air pressure b (1) : adapted for holding or
> inflated with
> compressed air (2) : having air-filled cavities
> 2 : of or relating to the pneuma : SPIRITUAL
> 3 : having a well-proportioned feminine figure;
> especially : having a
> full bust
> - pneu·mat·i·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb
> - pneu·ma·tic·i·ty /"nü-m&-'ti-s&-tE, "nyü-/ noun
>
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/
>
> Gregg wrote:
>>
>> What is the definition of pneumatic and where does it enforce a
>> pressure range??
>>
>> Gregg