Re: For gear heads only
Air pressure is just too spongy, valve time must be precise.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ MXJOE wrote: > > Formula One engines have some type of pneumatic valve train don't they? How > do they work? Those cars run on 89 octane don't they? I obviosly don't > know much about them, but maybe someone here will. > JOE |
Re: For gear heads only
Search keywords: Cosworth, 1986, Renault, pneumatic valve train,
Formula 1, and most importantly "Sometimes bill is just plain wrong" :>-) Approximately 8/21/03 11:26, L.W.(ßill) ------ III uttered for posterity: > Air pressure is just too spongy, valve time must be precise. > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ > > MXJOE wrote: >> >> Formula One engines have some type of pneumatic valve train don't they? How >> do they work? Those cars run on 89 octane don't they? I obviosly don't >> know much about them, but maybe someone here will. >> JOE |
Re: For gear heads only
Search keywords: Cosworth, 1986, Renault, pneumatic valve train,
Formula 1, and most importantly "Sometimes bill is just plain wrong" :>-) Approximately 8/21/03 11:26, L.W.(ßill) ------ III uttered for posterity: > Air pressure is just too spongy, valve time must be precise. > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ > > MXJOE wrote: >> >> Formula One engines have some type of pneumatic valve train don't they? How >> do they work? Those cars run on 89 octane don't they? I obviosly don't >> know much about them, but maybe someone here will. >> JOE |
Re: For gear heads only
Approximately 8/21/03 11:26, L.W.(ßill) ------ III uttered for posterity:
> Air pressure is just too spongy, valve time must be precise. > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ > > MXJOE wrote: >> >> Formula One engines have some type of pneumatic valve train don't they? How >> do they work? Those cars run on 89 octane don't they? I obviosly don't >> know much about them, but maybe someone here will. >> JOE <http://www.indiacar.com/index2.asp?pagename=http://www.indiacar.com/nfs/technical/pvengine.htm> or http://tinyurl.com/kr6d |
Re: For gear heads only
Approximately 8/21/03 11:26, L.W.(ßill) ------ III uttered for posterity:
> Air pressure is just too spongy, valve time must be precise. > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ > > MXJOE wrote: >> >> Formula One engines have some type of pneumatic valve train don't they? How >> do they work? Those cars run on 89 octane don't they? I obviosly don't >> know much about them, but maybe someone here will. >> JOE <http://www.indiacar.com/index2.asp?pagename=http://www.indiacar.com/nfs/technical/pvengine.htm> or http://tinyurl.com/kr6d |
Re: For gear heads only
Soleniods only act in one direction, requiring a spring for return, or a second
solenoid acting in the opposite direction (which would probably be the way to go to elimiate the spring force all together). Lon Stowell wrote: > If you were to use solenoids for valve control, the first thing > you do is get rid of the spring, then use the solenoid to both > open and close the valve. The amount of energy needed for that > is quite low.... as an example the old Mercedes [or ducatti bike] > with desmodromic valves which if set up properly allowed you to spin > the cam assemblies with your fingers, opening and closing the valves. > > I suspect that some of the older tricks might have trouble with > emissions today. e.g. to avoid binding, don't fully close the > valves, let the engine compression do it for you. > > I could swear some formula 1 or would-be formula 1 engine used > solenoid type valves, but memory is dim and the missus is nagging > me to cut down on caffiene. The name Honda keeps popping up > in memory. > > Approximately 8/21/03 09:45, L.W.(ßill) ------ III uttered for posterity: > > > I use 350 pound closed valve springs to insure they don't float at > > six grand, can you imagine the size of an solenoid that may do just > > that, lift a valve one half inch three thousand times a minute, even if > > you take the weight of a lifter out of the picture? Heck, they can't > > even get an overhead cam to work correctly, push rods are a must for > > precision, high performance horse power. > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ > > > > serg wrote: > >> > >> funny-i remember talking to some friends about using solenoids to drive the > >> valves in a car back when we were in engineering school.....we thought the > >> electronics would be kind of a pain. the timing would probably be > >> controlled more efficiently though. |
Re: For gear heads only
Soleniods only act in one direction, requiring a spring for return, or a second
solenoid acting in the opposite direction (which would probably be the way to go to elimiate the spring force all together). Lon Stowell wrote: > If you were to use solenoids for valve control, the first thing > you do is get rid of the spring, then use the solenoid to both > open and close the valve. The amount of energy needed for that > is quite low.... as an example the old Mercedes [or ducatti bike] > with desmodromic valves which if set up properly allowed you to spin > the cam assemblies with your fingers, opening and closing the valves. > > I suspect that some of the older tricks might have trouble with > emissions today. e.g. to avoid binding, don't fully close the > valves, let the engine compression do it for you. > > I could swear some formula 1 or would-be formula 1 engine used > solenoid type valves, but memory is dim and the missus is nagging > me to cut down on caffiene. The name Honda keeps popping up > in memory. > > Approximately 8/21/03 09:45, L.W.(ßill) ------ III uttered for posterity: > > > I use 350 pound closed valve springs to insure they don't float at > > six grand, can you imagine the size of an solenoid that may do just > > that, lift a valve one half inch three thousand times a minute, even if > > you take the weight of a lifter out of the picture? Heck, they can't > > even get an overhead cam to work correctly, push rods are a must for > > precision, high performance horse power. > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ > > > > serg wrote: > >> > >> funny-i remember talking to some friends about using solenoids to drive the > >> valves in a car back when we were in engineering school.....we thought the > >> electronics would be kind of a pain. the timing would probably be > >> controlled more efficiently though. |
Re: For gear heads only
The Mercedes 300 SLR had no springs whatever. The desmodromic valves worked with a cam to open and a cam to close. Ducati started using the same valves in the mid 80's. Actually surprised with a quick google how many other engines use/used it. Approximately 8/21/03 11:24, L.W.(ßill) ------ III uttered for posterity: > Hi Lon, > On very low compression engines such as the scooter and motorcycles > I grew up with, the springs didn't need to be strong because they just > didn't turn fast enough where the weight of valve wouldn't be as much to > stop as a bullet. In fact they even had compression releases to make > them easier to turn over for starting. > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ > > Lon Stowell wrote: >> >> If you were to use solenoids for valve control, the first thing >> you do is get rid of the spring, then use the solenoid to both >> open and close the valve. The amount of energy needed for that >> is quite low.... as an example the old Mercedes [or ducatti bike] >> with desmodromic valves which if set up properly allowed you to spin >> the cam assemblies with your fingers, opening and closing the valves. >> >> I suspect that some of the older tricks might have trouble with >> emissions today. e.g. to avoid binding, don't fully close the >> valves, let the engine compression do it for you. >> >> I could swear some formula 1 or would-be formula 1 engine used >> solenoid type valves, but memory is dim and the missus is nagging >> me to cut down on caffiene. The name Honda keeps popping up >> in memory. |
Re: For gear heads only
The Mercedes 300 SLR had no springs whatever. The desmodromic valves worked with a cam to open and a cam to close. Ducati started using the same valves in the mid 80's. Actually surprised with a quick google how many other engines use/used it. Approximately 8/21/03 11:24, L.W.(ßill) ------ III uttered for posterity: > Hi Lon, > On very low compression engines such as the scooter and motorcycles > I grew up with, the springs didn't need to be strong because they just > didn't turn fast enough where the weight of valve wouldn't be as much to > stop as a bullet. In fact they even had compression releases to make > them easier to turn over for starting. > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ > > Lon Stowell wrote: >> >> If you were to use solenoids for valve control, the first thing >> you do is get rid of the spring, then use the solenoid to both >> open and close the valve. The amount of energy needed for that >> is quite low.... as an example the old Mercedes [or ducatti bike] >> with desmodromic valves which if set up properly allowed you to spin >> the cam assemblies with your fingers, opening and closing the valves. >> >> I suspect that some of the older tricks might have trouble with >> emissions today. e.g. to avoid binding, don't fully close the >> valves, let the engine compression do it for you. >> >> I could swear some formula 1 or would-be formula 1 engine used >> solenoid type valves, but memory is dim and the missus is nagging >> me to cut down on caffiene. The name Honda keeps popping up >> in memory. |
Re: For gear heads only
Ahhh, this explains why you have to order power locks "up" and power locks
"down" separately... solenoids work very well in 2 directions. -Brian "Football God" <footballgod@heaven.com> wrote in message news:3F45109C.7F2A9948@heaven.com... : Soleniods only act in one direction, requiring a spring for return, or a second : solenoid acting in the opposite direction (which would probably be the way to go : to elimiate the spring force all together). : : Lon Stowell wrote: : : > If you were to use solenoids for valve control, the first thing : > you do is get rid of the spring, then use the solenoid to both : > open and close the valve. The amount of energy needed for that : > is quite low.... as an example the old Mercedes [or ducatti bike] : > with desmodromic valves which if set up properly allowed you to spin : > the cam assemblies with your fingers, opening and closing the valves. : > : > I suspect that some of the older tricks might have trouble with : > emissions today. e.g. to avoid binding, don't fully close the : > valves, let the engine compression do it for you. : > : > I could swear some formula 1 or would-be formula 1 engine used : > solenoid type valves, but memory is dim and the missus is nagging : > me to cut down on caffiene. The name Honda keeps popping up : > in memory. : > : > Approximately 8/21/03 09:45, L.W.(ßill) ------ III uttered for posterity: : > : > > I use 350 pound closed valve springs to insure they don't float at : > > six grand, can you imagine the size of an solenoid that may do just : > > that, lift a valve one half inch three thousand times a minute, even if : > > you take the weight of a lifter out of the picture? Heck, they can't : > > even get an overhead cam to work correctly, push rods are a must for : > > precision, high performance horse power. : > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O : > > mailto:-------------------- http://www.----------.com/ : > > : > > serg wrote: : > >> : > >> funny-i remember talking to some friends about using solenoids to drive the : > >> valves in a car back when we were in engineering school.....we thought the : > >> electronics would be kind of a pain. the timing would probably be : > >> controlled more efficiently though. : |
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