Quick Torx rant..any suggestions?
05-09-2004, 12:43 AM
#21
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Quick Torx rant..any suggestions?
DougW did pass the time by typing:
> SB did pass the time by typing:
>> if it's not too late already....make sure your torx bit is in good shape and
>> fits tight!
>>
>> heat and hammers (watch the glass!).
>> gotta break that loctite hold...nothing will get in there so you better get
>> a propane torch and ya....
>
> Acording to the folks at loctite you can use a little bit
> of threadlocker on the bolt, it will wick down like PB blaster
> does on rust and loosen the grip. That or apply the hotwrench.
Adding one more thing. (blame the brain addled beer cell). ::)
Don't use cheap *** torx bits! Use a precision made one, either
SnapOn/Craftsman or in a pinch, CalHawlk. The el-cheapo ones are
pressed or cast and just don't fit right.
--
DougW
> SB did pass the time by typing:
>> if it's not too late already....make sure your torx bit is in good shape and
>> fits tight!
>>
>> heat and hammers (watch the glass!).
>> gotta break that loctite hold...nothing will get in there so you better get
>> a propane torch and ya....
>
> Acording to the folks at loctite you can use a little bit
> of threadlocker on the bolt, it will wick down like PB blaster
> does on rust and loosen the grip. That or apply the hotwrench.
Adding one more thing. (blame the brain addled beer cell). ::)
Don't use cheap *** torx bits! Use a precision made one, either
SnapOn/Craftsman or in a pinch, CalHawlk. The el-cheapo ones are
pressed or cast and just don't fit right.
--
DougW
05-09-2004, 12:46 AM
#22
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Quick Torx rant..any suggestions?
Matt (mhammer8@yahoo.com) wrote on Saturday 08 May 2004 07:30 pm:
> I've always had to struggle with these idiotic Torx bolts Jeep uses.
> Today I was trying to put mirror relo brackets on...I was warned
> before that the retards at the factory had lathered lots of Loctite on
> these particular ones when they installed them. It is now not
> physically possible to exert enough force on these cheap bolts to
> loosen them before they strip. No matter how I line them up or how
> hard I keep the bit pressed in (even hammering the bit in doesn't work
> enough), these pieces of ---- just grind apart when I try to turn
> them. What can I do? They're not totally stripped out yet-I think I
> might just pay someone to spot weld a bar onto them and hammer them
> out. What other options do I have? It's a '99 TJ with no rust or
> anything in the holes. The Jeep is a great vehicle in the whole of its
> parts, but the details like this (and how cheap the black plastic on
> the interior is) are where it sucks!
>
> Matt
Matt,
If you haven't yet, buy a quality torx bit from Sears or Snap-on (if you can
find them). The cheapies that come in the set are a sure way to destroy a
torx bolt. I've never had a torx strip out on my 82. I was only able to
find decent torx bits at Sears in the last few years, so check again if you
haven't looked lately.
Another tip is to try tightening it first, especially if you've stripped
things out in the loosening direction. Take it slow and make sure it's
seated as best you can. You just need to break it loose.
Good luck!
--
Michael White "To protect people from the effects of folly is to
fill the world with fools." -Herbert Spencer, 1891
> I've always had to struggle with these idiotic Torx bolts Jeep uses.
> Today I was trying to put mirror relo brackets on...I was warned
> before that the retards at the factory had lathered lots of Loctite on
> these particular ones when they installed them. It is now not
> physically possible to exert enough force on these cheap bolts to
> loosen them before they strip. No matter how I line them up or how
> hard I keep the bit pressed in (even hammering the bit in doesn't work
> enough), these pieces of ---- just grind apart when I try to turn
> them. What can I do? They're not totally stripped out yet-I think I
> might just pay someone to spot weld a bar onto them and hammer them
> out. What other options do I have? It's a '99 TJ with no rust or
> anything in the holes. The Jeep is a great vehicle in the whole of its
> parts, but the details like this (and how cheap the black plastic on
> the interior is) are where it sucks!
>
> Matt
Matt,
If you haven't yet, buy a quality torx bit from Sears or Snap-on (if you can
find them). The cheapies that come in the set are a sure way to destroy a
torx bolt. I've never had a torx strip out on my 82. I was only able to
find decent torx bits at Sears in the last few years, so check again if you
haven't looked lately.
Another tip is to try tightening it first, especially if you've stripped
things out in the loosening direction. Take it slow and make sure it's
seated as best you can. You just need to break it loose.
Good luck!
--
Michael White "To protect people from the effects of folly is to
fill the world with fools." -Herbert Spencer, 1891
05-09-2004, 12:46 AM
#23
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Quick Torx rant..any suggestions?
Matt (mhammer8@yahoo.com) wrote on Saturday 08 May 2004 07:30 pm:
> I've always had to struggle with these idiotic Torx bolts Jeep uses.
> Today I was trying to put mirror relo brackets on...I was warned
> before that the retards at the factory had lathered lots of Loctite on
> these particular ones when they installed them. It is now not
> physically possible to exert enough force on these cheap bolts to
> loosen them before they strip. No matter how I line them up or how
> hard I keep the bit pressed in (even hammering the bit in doesn't work
> enough), these pieces of ---- just grind apart when I try to turn
> them. What can I do? They're not totally stripped out yet-I think I
> might just pay someone to spot weld a bar onto them and hammer them
> out. What other options do I have? It's a '99 TJ with no rust or
> anything in the holes. The Jeep is a great vehicle in the whole of its
> parts, but the details like this (and how cheap the black plastic on
> the interior is) are where it sucks!
>
> Matt
Matt,
If you haven't yet, buy a quality torx bit from Sears or Snap-on (if you can
find them). The cheapies that come in the set are a sure way to destroy a
torx bolt. I've never had a torx strip out on my 82. I was only able to
find decent torx bits at Sears in the last few years, so check again if you
haven't looked lately.
Another tip is to try tightening it first, especially if you've stripped
things out in the loosening direction. Take it slow and make sure it's
seated as best you can. You just need to break it loose.
Good luck!
--
Michael White "To protect people from the effects of folly is to
fill the world with fools." -Herbert Spencer, 1891
> I've always had to struggle with these idiotic Torx bolts Jeep uses.
> Today I was trying to put mirror relo brackets on...I was warned
> before that the retards at the factory had lathered lots of Loctite on
> these particular ones when they installed them. It is now not
> physically possible to exert enough force on these cheap bolts to
> loosen them before they strip. No matter how I line them up or how
> hard I keep the bit pressed in (even hammering the bit in doesn't work
> enough), these pieces of ---- just grind apart when I try to turn
> them. What can I do? They're not totally stripped out yet-I think I
> might just pay someone to spot weld a bar onto them and hammer them
> out. What other options do I have? It's a '99 TJ with no rust or
> anything in the holes. The Jeep is a great vehicle in the whole of its
> parts, but the details like this (and how cheap the black plastic on
> the interior is) are where it sucks!
>
> Matt
Matt,
If you haven't yet, buy a quality torx bit from Sears or Snap-on (if you can
find them). The cheapies that come in the set are a sure way to destroy a
torx bolt. I've never had a torx strip out on my 82. I was only able to
find decent torx bits at Sears in the last few years, so check again if you
haven't looked lately.
Another tip is to try tightening it first, especially if you've stripped
things out in the loosening direction. Take it slow and make sure it's
seated as best you can. You just need to break it loose.
Good luck!
--
Michael White "To protect people from the effects of folly is to
fill the world with fools." -Herbert Spencer, 1891
05-09-2004, 12:46 AM
#24
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Quick Torx rant..any suggestions?
Matt (mhammer8@yahoo.com) wrote on Saturday 08 May 2004 07:30 pm:
> I've always had to struggle with these idiotic Torx bolts Jeep uses.
> Today I was trying to put mirror relo brackets on...I was warned
> before that the retards at the factory had lathered lots of Loctite on
> these particular ones when they installed them. It is now not
> physically possible to exert enough force on these cheap bolts to
> loosen them before they strip. No matter how I line them up or how
> hard I keep the bit pressed in (even hammering the bit in doesn't work
> enough), these pieces of ---- just grind apart when I try to turn
> them. What can I do? They're not totally stripped out yet-I think I
> might just pay someone to spot weld a bar onto them and hammer them
> out. What other options do I have? It's a '99 TJ with no rust or
> anything in the holes. The Jeep is a great vehicle in the whole of its
> parts, but the details like this (and how cheap the black plastic on
> the interior is) are where it sucks!
>
> Matt
Matt,
If you haven't yet, buy a quality torx bit from Sears or Snap-on (if you can
find them). The cheapies that come in the set are a sure way to destroy a
torx bolt. I've never had a torx strip out on my 82. I was only able to
find decent torx bits at Sears in the last few years, so check again if you
haven't looked lately.
Another tip is to try tightening it first, especially if you've stripped
things out in the loosening direction. Take it slow and make sure it's
seated as best you can. You just need to break it loose.
Good luck!
--
Michael White "To protect people from the effects of folly is to
fill the world with fools." -Herbert Spencer, 1891
> I've always had to struggle with these idiotic Torx bolts Jeep uses.
> Today I was trying to put mirror relo brackets on...I was warned
> before that the retards at the factory had lathered lots of Loctite on
> these particular ones when they installed them. It is now not
> physically possible to exert enough force on these cheap bolts to
> loosen them before they strip. No matter how I line them up or how
> hard I keep the bit pressed in (even hammering the bit in doesn't work
> enough), these pieces of ---- just grind apart when I try to turn
> them. What can I do? They're not totally stripped out yet-I think I
> might just pay someone to spot weld a bar onto them and hammer them
> out. What other options do I have? It's a '99 TJ with no rust or
> anything in the holes. The Jeep is a great vehicle in the whole of its
> parts, but the details like this (and how cheap the black plastic on
> the interior is) are where it sucks!
>
> Matt
Matt,
If you haven't yet, buy a quality torx bit from Sears or Snap-on (if you can
find them). The cheapies that come in the set are a sure way to destroy a
torx bolt. I've never had a torx strip out on my 82. I was only able to
find decent torx bits at Sears in the last few years, so check again if you
haven't looked lately.
Another tip is to try tightening it first, especially if you've stripped
things out in the loosening direction. Take it slow and make sure it's
seated as best you can. You just need to break it loose.
Good luck!
--
Michael White "To protect people from the effects of folly is to
fill the world with fools." -Herbert Spencer, 1891
05-09-2004, 12:46 AM
#25
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Quick Torx rant..any suggestions?
Matt (mhammer8@yahoo.com) wrote on Saturday 08 May 2004 07:30 pm:
> I've always had to struggle with these idiotic Torx bolts Jeep uses.
> Today I was trying to put mirror relo brackets on...I was warned
> before that the retards at the factory had lathered lots of Loctite on
> these particular ones when they installed them. It is now not
> physically possible to exert enough force on these cheap bolts to
> loosen them before they strip. No matter how I line them up or how
> hard I keep the bit pressed in (even hammering the bit in doesn't work
> enough), these pieces of ---- just grind apart when I try to turn
> them. What can I do? They're not totally stripped out yet-I think I
> might just pay someone to spot weld a bar onto them and hammer them
> out. What other options do I have? It's a '99 TJ with no rust or
> anything in the holes. The Jeep is a great vehicle in the whole of its
> parts, but the details like this (and how cheap the black plastic on
> the interior is) are where it sucks!
>
> Matt
Matt,
If you haven't yet, buy a quality torx bit from Sears or Snap-on (if you can
find them). The cheapies that come in the set are a sure way to destroy a
torx bolt. I've never had a torx strip out on my 82. I was only able to
find decent torx bits at Sears in the last few years, so check again if you
haven't looked lately.
Another tip is to try tightening it first, especially if you've stripped
things out in the loosening direction. Take it slow and make sure it's
seated as best you can. You just need to break it loose.
Good luck!
--
Michael White "To protect people from the effects of folly is to
fill the world with fools." -Herbert Spencer, 1891
> I've always had to struggle with these idiotic Torx bolts Jeep uses.
> Today I was trying to put mirror relo brackets on...I was warned
> before that the retards at the factory had lathered lots of Loctite on
> these particular ones when they installed them. It is now not
> physically possible to exert enough force on these cheap bolts to
> loosen them before they strip. No matter how I line them up or how
> hard I keep the bit pressed in (even hammering the bit in doesn't work
> enough), these pieces of ---- just grind apart when I try to turn
> them. What can I do? They're not totally stripped out yet-I think I
> might just pay someone to spot weld a bar onto them and hammer them
> out. What other options do I have? It's a '99 TJ with no rust or
> anything in the holes. The Jeep is a great vehicle in the whole of its
> parts, but the details like this (and how cheap the black plastic on
> the interior is) are where it sucks!
>
> Matt
Matt,
If you haven't yet, buy a quality torx bit from Sears or Snap-on (if you can
find them). The cheapies that come in the set are a sure way to destroy a
torx bolt. I've never had a torx strip out on my 82. I was only able to
find decent torx bits at Sears in the last few years, so check again if you
haven't looked lately.
Another tip is to try tightening it first, especially if you've stripped
things out in the loosening direction. Take it slow and make sure it's
seated as best you can. You just need to break it loose.
Good luck!
--
Michael White "To protect people from the effects of folly is to
fill the world with fools." -Herbert Spencer, 1891
05-09-2004, 05:42 AM
#26
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Quick Torx rant..any suggestions?
On 8 May 2004 17:30:30 -0700, mhammer8@yahoo.com (Matt) wrote:
>I've always had to struggle with these idiotic Torx bolts Jeep uses.
>Today I was trying to put mirror relo brackets on...I was warned
>before that the retards at the factory had lathered lots of Loctite on
>these particular ones when they installed them. It is now not
>physically possible to exert enough force on these cheap bolts to
>loosen them before they strip. No matter how I line them up or how
>hard I keep the bit pressed in (even hammering the bit in doesn't work
>enough), these pieces of ---- just grind apart when I try to turn
>them. What can I do? They're not totally stripped out yet-I think I
>might just pay someone to spot weld a bar onto them and hammer them
>out. What other options do I have? It's a '99 TJ with no rust or
>anything in the holes. The Jeep is a great vehicle in the whole of its
>parts, but the details like this (and how cheap the black plastic on
>the interior is) are where it sucks!
>
>Matt
Get a dremel and "convert" them so that you can use a large flat
bladed screwdriver to remove them, then throw them away and replace
them with something that makes sense?
>I've always had to struggle with these idiotic Torx bolts Jeep uses.
>Today I was trying to put mirror relo brackets on...I was warned
>before that the retards at the factory had lathered lots of Loctite on
>these particular ones when they installed them. It is now not
>physically possible to exert enough force on these cheap bolts to
>loosen them before they strip. No matter how I line them up or how
>hard I keep the bit pressed in (even hammering the bit in doesn't work
>enough), these pieces of ---- just grind apart when I try to turn
>them. What can I do? They're not totally stripped out yet-I think I
>might just pay someone to spot weld a bar onto them and hammer them
>out. What other options do I have? It's a '99 TJ with no rust or
>anything in the holes. The Jeep is a great vehicle in the whole of its
>parts, but the details like this (and how cheap the black plastic on
>the interior is) are where it sucks!
>
>Matt
Get a dremel and "convert" them so that you can use a large flat
bladed screwdriver to remove them, then throw them away and replace
them with something that makes sense?
05-09-2004, 05:42 AM
#27
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Quick Torx rant..any suggestions?
On 8 May 2004 17:30:30 -0700, mhammer8@yahoo.com (Matt) wrote:
>I've always had to struggle with these idiotic Torx bolts Jeep uses.
>Today I was trying to put mirror relo brackets on...I was warned
>before that the retards at the factory had lathered lots of Loctite on
>these particular ones when they installed them. It is now not
>physically possible to exert enough force on these cheap bolts to
>loosen them before they strip. No matter how I line them up or how
>hard I keep the bit pressed in (even hammering the bit in doesn't work
>enough), these pieces of ---- just grind apart when I try to turn
>them. What can I do? They're not totally stripped out yet-I think I
>might just pay someone to spot weld a bar onto them and hammer them
>out. What other options do I have? It's a '99 TJ with no rust or
>anything in the holes. The Jeep is a great vehicle in the whole of its
>parts, but the details like this (and how cheap the black plastic on
>the interior is) are where it sucks!
>
>Matt
Get a dremel and "convert" them so that you can use a large flat
bladed screwdriver to remove them, then throw them away and replace
them with something that makes sense?
>I've always had to struggle with these idiotic Torx bolts Jeep uses.
>Today I was trying to put mirror relo brackets on...I was warned
>before that the retards at the factory had lathered lots of Loctite on
>these particular ones when they installed them. It is now not
>physically possible to exert enough force on these cheap bolts to
>loosen them before they strip. No matter how I line them up or how
>hard I keep the bit pressed in (even hammering the bit in doesn't work
>enough), these pieces of ---- just grind apart when I try to turn
>them. What can I do? They're not totally stripped out yet-I think I
>might just pay someone to spot weld a bar onto them and hammer them
>out. What other options do I have? It's a '99 TJ with no rust or
>anything in the holes. The Jeep is a great vehicle in the whole of its
>parts, but the details like this (and how cheap the black plastic on
>the interior is) are where it sucks!
>
>Matt
Get a dremel and "convert" them so that you can use a large flat
bladed screwdriver to remove them, then throw them away and replace
them with something that makes sense?
05-09-2004, 05:42 AM
#28
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Quick Torx rant..any suggestions?
On 8 May 2004 17:30:30 -0700, mhammer8@yahoo.com (Matt) wrote:
>I've always had to struggle with these idiotic Torx bolts Jeep uses.
>Today I was trying to put mirror relo brackets on...I was warned
>before that the retards at the factory had lathered lots of Loctite on
>these particular ones when they installed them. It is now not
>physically possible to exert enough force on these cheap bolts to
>loosen them before they strip. No matter how I line them up or how
>hard I keep the bit pressed in (even hammering the bit in doesn't work
>enough), these pieces of ---- just grind apart when I try to turn
>them. What can I do? They're not totally stripped out yet-I think I
>might just pay someone to spot weld a bar onto them and hammer them
>out. What other options do I have? It's a '99 TJ with no rust or
>anything in the holes. The Jeep is a great vehicle in the whole of its
>parts, but the details like this (and how cheap the black plastic on
>the interior is) are where it sucks!
>
>Matt
Get a dremel and "convert" them so that you can use a large flat
bladed screwdriver to remove them, then throw them away and replace
them with something that makes sense?
>I've always had to struggle with these idiotic Torx bolts Jeep uses.
>Today I was trying to put mirror relo brackets on...I was warned
>before that the retards at the factory had lathered lots of Loctite on
>these particular ones when they installed them. It is now not
>physically possible to exert enough force on these cheap bolts to
>loosen them before they strip. No matter how I line them up or how
>hard I keep the bit pressed in (even hammering the bit in doesn't work
>enough), these pieces of ---- just grind apart when I try to turn
>them. What can I do? They're not totally stripped out yet-I think I
>might just pay someone to spot weld a bar onto them and hammer them
>out. What other options do I have? It's a '99 TJ with no rust or
>anything in the holes. The Jeep is a great vehicle in the whole of its
>parts, but the details like this (and how cheap the black plastic on
>the interior is) are where it sucks!
>
>Matt
Get a dremel and "convert" them so that you can use a large flat
bladed screwdriver to remove them, then throw them away and replace
them with something that makes sense?
05-09-2004, 05:42 AM
#29
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Quick Torx rant..any suggestions?
On 8 May 2004 17:30:30 -0700, mhammer8@yahoo.com (Matt) wrote:
>I've always had to struggle with these idiotic Torx bolts Jeep uses.
>Today I was trying to put mirror relo brackets on...I was warned
>before that the retards at the factory had lathered lots of Loctite on
>these particular ones when they installed them. It is now not
>physically possible to exert enough force on these cheap bolts to
>loosen them before they strip. No matter how I line them up or how
>hard I keep the bit pressed in (even hammering the bit in doesn't work
>enough), these pieces of ---- just grind apart when I try to turn
>them. What can I do? They're not totally stripped out yet-I think I
>might just pay someone to spot weld a bar onto them and hammer them
>out. What other options do I have? It's a '99 TJ with no rust or
>anything in the holes. The Jeep is a great vehicle in the whole of its
>parts, but the details like this (and how cheap the black plastic on
>the interior is) are where it sucks!
>
>Matt
Get a dremel and "convert" them so that you can use a large flat
bladed screwdriver to remove them, then throw them away and replace
them with something that makes sense?
>I've always had to struggle with these idiotic Torx bolts Jeep uses.
>Today I was trying to put mirror relo brackets on...I was warned
>before that the retards at the factory had lathered lots of Loctite on
>these particular ones when they installed them. It is now not
>physically possible to exert enough force on these cheap bolts to
>loosen them before they strip. No matter how I line them up or how
>hard I keep the bit pressed in (even hammering the bit in doesn't work
>enough), these pieces of ---- just grind apart when I try to turn
>them. What can I do? They're not totally stripped out yet-I think I
>might just pay someone to spot weld a bar onto them and hammer them
>out. What other options do I have? It's a '99 TJ with no rust or
>anything in the holes. The Jeep is a great vehicle in the whole of its
>parts, but the details like this (and how cheap the black plastic on
>the interior is) are where it sucks!
>
>Matt
Get a dremel and "convert" them so that you can use a large flat
bladed screwdriver to remove them, then throw them away and replace
them with something that makes sense?
05-09-2004, 07:07 AM
#30
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Quick Torx rant..any suggestions?
I recently put mirror relo brackets on my '00 TJ and all but one of the
screws came out easily. The last stripped just like yours. I drilled about
5/8" into the center of the screw with a 3/16" drill (you'll see why in a
second), then with a 5/16" drill in the same hole drilled until the screw
head came off (they are 5/16 screws, so this size drill will pop the head
off when iit drills deep enough to get through the head). That left the
screw body in the hole, with about 3/8" of a 3/16" hole left in it (see why
I did that one first?). I then used an ez-out, and backed the screw right
out. The screw itself was loose, it was the head that was binding (from the
paint, I'd guess)
In the fall when I remove the brackets I'll replace the screws with
Allen-head stainless screws from my local hardware store.
"Matt" <mhammer8@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3a3f4978.0405081630.5d0d332d@posting.google.c om...
> I've always had to struggle with these idiotic Torx bolts Jeep uses.
> Today I was trying to put mirror relo brackets on...I was warned
> before that the retards at the factory had lathered lots of Loctite on
> these particular ones when they installed them. It is now not
> physically possible to exert enough force on these cheap bolts to
> loosen them before they strip. No matter how I line them up or how
> hard I keep the bit pressed in (even hammering the bit in doesn't work
> enough), these pieces of ---- just grind apart when I try to turn
> them. What can I do? They're not totally stripped out yet-I think I
> might just pay someone to spot weld a bar onto them and hammer them
> out. What other options do I have? It's a '99 TJ with no rust or
> anything in the holes. The Jeep is a great vehicle in the whole of its
> parts, but the details like this (and how cheap the black plastic on
> the interior is) are where it sucks!
>
> Matt
screws came out easily. The last stripped just like yours. I drilled about
5/8" into the center of the screw with a 3/16" drill (you'll see why in a
second), then with a 5/16" drill in the same hole drilled until the screw
head came off (they are 5/16 screws, so this size drill will pop the head
off when iit drills deep enough to get through the head). That left the
screw body in the hole, with about 3/8" of a 3/16" hole left in it (see why
I did that one first?). I then used an ez-out, and backed the screw right
out. The screw itself was loose, it was the head that was binding (from the
paint, I'd guess)
In the fall when I remove the brackets I'll replace the screws with
Allen-head stainless screws from my local hardware store.
"Matt" <mhammer8@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3a3f4978.0405081630.5d0d332d@posting.google.c om...
> I've always had to struggle with these idiotic Torx bolts Jeep uses.
> Today I was trying to put mirror relo brackets on...I was warned
> before that the retards at the factory had lathered lots of Loctite on
> these particular ones when they installed them. It is now not
> physically possible to exert enough force on these cheap bolts to
> loosen them before they strip. No matter how I line them up or how
> hard I keep the bit pressed in (even hammering the bit in doesn't work
> enough), these pieces of ---- just grind apart when I try to turn
> them. What can I do? They're not totally stripped out yet-I think I
> might just pay someone to spot weld a bar onto them and hammer them
> out. What other options do I have? It's a '99 TJ with no rust or
> anything in the holes. The Jeep is a great vehicle in the whole of its
> parts, but the details like this (and how cheap the black plastic on
> the interior is) are where it sucks!
>
> Matt